[HN Gopher] Effects on the lips of horn players seated too close...
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Effects on the lips of horn players seated too close to the timpani
(2014)
Author : camtarn
Score : 132 points
Date : 2023-01-08 08:20 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (newt.phys.unsw.edu.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (newt.phys.unsw.edu.au)
| jacquesm wrote:
| The dynamic range of a full size symphonic orchestra is very
| impressive, it's 105+ dB!
|
| A Timpani up close you can feel in your belly as though someone
| punched you lightly in the gut and you can wear earplugs all you
| want it isn't going to help you if the horn you play concentrates
| that shock wave in the reverse manner in which it allows your own
| notes to go out, probably much worse if your chosen note happens
| to match the note to which that particular timpani is tuned. From
| the bell end to your mouthpiece it's essentially an open channel
| with a very specific length chosen to match the pitch at which
| the whole thing resonates. Get close to that frequency and
| anything you (and others, such as timpani players) do will be
| amplified. Your puny outgoing breath will have to fight with the
| force of a grown man hitting a ~1square meter sheet of very taut
| skin. It's a pretty uneven match.
|
| Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection? (Pretty
| common for drummers in pop music.)
|
| Incidentally, if someone is willing to pick it up, I still have a
| silver plated Yamaha slide sitting here that hasn't been used for
| years (one of my lungs isn't what it used to be). Free to a good
| home.
| bob1029 wrote:
| > A Timpani up close you can feel in your belly as though
| someone punched you lightly in the gut
|
| This is the #1 reason I bought those "ridiculous" subwoofers...
| A lot of the experience of the symphony lives in frequency
| ranges that are difficult to reproduce. Anything that does a
| hard cutoff at 20Hz is basically neutering the larger
| instruments. Feeling these transients is the entire point of
| having someone slam a mallet into a large object.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Interesting - but not super relevant - data point: a Symphony
| Orchestra at 1 meter distance at full volume produces < 20
| Watts of power!
|
| I think your average stereo is going to have a substantial
| problem with any kind of orchestral music, you won't be able
| to hear the soft passages and the louder ones will get you
| 911 attention assuming you could hear the softer ones.
| Fortunately most audio reproduction media can't do it either.
| But if you have access to the original masters (or digitized
| copies) you can get up to 80 dB range. Putting together a
| non-headphones based stereo system to reproduce that in a
| normal living room is going to be pricey.
| bob1029 wrote:
| > I think your average stereo is going to have a
| substantial problem with any kind of orchestral music.
|
| Indeed. The impedance difference between a live instrument
| vs a general-purpose reproduction system is almost always
| going to be fantastical. Just think about how loud a
| person's voice can get.
|
| 20 watts of power into a live brass instrument is going to
| require something like 500-2000 watts worth of typical
| audio gear to approximate at reference volume without much
| distortion. There are specialty loudspeakers designed to
| more closely approximate certain elements - which can
| reduce these power requirements - but then you are forced
| to make all kinds of other weird tradeoffs.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| And this is why Watt is a poor substitute for volume,
| because speaker sensitivity is more important. Every energy
| doubling (50W => 100W) is just +3dB, and you'll loose some
| of that due to power compression at the upper limits. A
| speaker with 76dB sensitivity compared to one with 107dB is
| quite a different experience when fed 10W. Reproducing
| ~110dB of acoustic power is not particularly difficult,
| except for the lowest frequencies which might either
| require high electrical power rating or impractically large
| horns. Some people build horns as beds to make them fit
| into their apartment: http://www.hifi-
| forum.de/viewthread-188-2426.html
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's hilarious :) I hope that apartment is acoustically
| insulated from the neighbors.
| Wistar wrote:
| How ridiculous? Rotary subwoofer ridiculous?
| https://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-
| tr...
| jacquesm wrote:
| I just had one of those 'why didn't I think of that'
| moments. That's really neat, thank you very much for
| posting it.
| tedunangst wrote:
| Unclear from the article, but what audio sources are they
| using? Is there a meaningful 5hz signal in my Blu-ray
| soundtrack?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Even C0 (for instance on a Bosendorfer Imperial) doesn't
| nearly go that low. You'd have to synthesize the sound, I
| don't think any normal arrangement would pick it up even
| if it was present in a performance (for instance, that
| organ mentioned elsewhere in the thread). 70 mm Dolby
| Stereo tracks from motion picture reels will go as low as
| 3Hz. I'm not sure if that makes it to Blue-ray though,
| would be nice to try for a lark but not enough of a win
| to shell out money for.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| 20Hz is already pretty deep, and usually only found in home
| cinema subs! The deepest organ note goes down to 16Hz I
| think? PA subwoofers are usually tuned to 40Hz, because there
| is typically no energy in regular music below that cutoff.
| The stuff that "punches you in the chest" is actually not
| deep bass, but kick bass, which is above 60Hz.
| jacquesm wrote:
| No, they go down all the way to 8, that's a 64' pipe. There
| are only very few organs in the world that can do this and
| I'm not even sure if those stops are functional.
|
| I have a 'virtual' version of that here and you simply
| can't hear it (you can feel it though).
|
| See:
|
| https://www.mixtuur.com/en/whats-the-longest-organ-pipe-
| in-t...
| wussboy wrote:
| I heard they have pipes that big at the Liverpool
| cathedral, but they only use them when the Queen was
| there, as they are literally wrecking the cathedral.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Indeed it does:
|
| https://www.liverpoolcathedral.org.uk/media/qyyd3x40/live
| rpo...
|
| I totally get why they would want to limit the use of
| that particular register. At that frequency you're
| putting standing waves in the structure of the cathedral
| that are long enough to put significant stresses on the
| masonry. I've played around a bit with a 32' stop in a
| church and that already had me worried about the stained
| glass and the more delicate bits of stone work. Half that
| at volume must be very impressive.
| lebuffon wrote:
| I don't think it is written into a piece (at least not
| one that I know of) but if you play the 32' pedal C and
| C# together you get a ~2 Hz beat frequency that is
| amazing to hear but probably didn't help the church
| building that I worked at. :)
| jacquesm wrote:
| Hehe, that's nasty :) Yes, of course, you can get all the
| sums and differences by going up and down that stop and
| keeping the lowest note pressed all the time. You
| probably end up giving the wind machine a nice work out
| too.
| treeman79 wrote:
| https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE
|
| Something like the Octobasse is amazing in person, and would
| be completely missing on a regular home speaker setup.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Wow. I thought that was a video overlay... but it's the
| real thing. Incredible.
| Aidevah wrote:
| Even a string quartet can produce quite an impressive dynamic
| range if the music calls for it. The Takacs quartet recording
| of Beethoven's Grosse Fuge is a great example with the extreme
| contrast between the soft, slow section and the two loud fugues
| that sandwich it[1]. You can open it up in audacity and the
| visual difference between the sections are immediately obvious.
| You don't often get this kind of large dynamic ranges in other
| music.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6nqfPWxWCg
| cableshaft wrote:
| I played Timpani for two years in high school. I never felt the
| need to wear ear protection. Although I did develop Tinnitus
| twenty years later, but I think it's more related to having to
| block out noise in open offices than me playing those drums a
| long time ago.
|
| I tried getting back into drums a bit with just practicing
| paradiddles on practice pads with standard drum sticks not too
| long ago, post-Tinnitus, and I needed to wear ear protection
| for that, I could feel a pressure in my ears with each strike,
| and it seemed a little unsafe.
|
| Timpani drum strikes are much softer, though (you have cotton
| and what feels like panty hose wrapped around that cotton on
| the end of the sticks) so I never really felt pressure in my
| ears, at least as far as I can remember, and even though I was
| trying to make it loud at times, it didn't seem significantly
| louder than when I was playing other instruments surrounded
| more closely by other musicians playing (like when I was
| playing saxophone sitting amongst the trombone and trumpet and
| tuba players).
| pc86 wrote:
| I don't think there's any evidence that tinnitus can be
| caused by open office floor plans.
| cableshaft wrote:
| It can be caused by wearing headphones and playing music
| loud enough and long enough, which I had to do extensively
| in order to do my work and focus, because if I didn't have
| them on there was often 4-6 conversations that I could hear
| from my desk at various times throughout the day (and not
| too uncommon there'd be 2-3 different conversations
| literally next to and across from my desk, it was
| apparently a hotspot for BAs and scrum masters to
| congregate and chat for 45+ minutes at a time. I tried to
| get my assigned desk changed but had little luck with
| that).
|
| I think at one point I got noise cancelling headphones and
| that helped a bit more, but I still had to play music at a
| certain level to cover the sound. Don't quite remember
| anymore though since it's been four years since I was in
| that situation.
|
| I'm sure not every open office is like that. In particular
| the one at my current job, the one time I went in, was
| significantly quieter. Although the office was only a third
| full as well, since things changed a lot since the pandemic
| started for how many people show up to the office (I work
| remote almost exclusively now).
|
| To be clear, I don't know for certain it caused it, it just
| seems the most likely culprit out of the possible causes in
| my life.
| snafferdog wrote:
| No, timpani players don't use earplugs. In almost all
| orchestral pieces you aren't playing timpani that loudly for
| long.
|
| Creds; performing diploma in Percussion from Guildhall.
| chha wrote:
| > Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection?
| (Pretty common for drummers in pop music.)
|
| I don't. Most of the music I've played in an orchestral setting
| hasn't really been that loud; there are certain sections of a
| piece where you might play louder than usual, but most is
| fairly low in volume. Wearing earplugs would mute everything
| else, including details you might need to hear, feedback from
| the conductor etc during rehersals etc.
|
| As an (amateur) percussionist/drummer I will typically only
| using custom earplugs if I play a really piercing instrument
| for extended periods, such as bells, chimes orchestral cymbals,
| or if I'm standing close to them.
|
| A drum kit in an orchestral setting is usually not that loud,
| at least not from my experience. Drum kits in band settings on
| the other hand... In those settings I'll usually wear in-ears
| whenever possible, which gives me a mix of whatever I need to
| hear, as well as a little bit of my drums so that I can hear
| what happens onstage. If not possible, I'll wear custom plugs
| which reduces everything more or less evenly with ~25dB.
| antonmosich wrote:
| > Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection?
| (Pretty common for drummers in pop music.)
|
| I would be surprised to see someone playing the Timpani wearing
| ear protection, if there aren't other even "louder" musicians
| around. If someone in proximity is playing the cymbals (or
| snare drum, or whip etc.) loudly though, I would absolutely use
| ear protection even when playing Timpani.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Snare or cymbals can be extremely loud up close but their
| spectrum is more like white noise, in comparison a Timpani is
| more like an 'audio laser' for want of a better term,
| relatively few harmonics and all of the energy concentrated
| in a very narrow band.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| It's really common for percussionists to have fitted
| "musician's earplugs"
|
| https://www.etymotic.com/product/custom-musicians-
| earplugs-w...
|
| If you see much live music, it's worth picking up a pair too.
| If you rarely go, a pair of universal-fit plugs costs a tenth
| as much.
| analog31 wrote:
| I'm a musician, and I wear the cheap ones. They actually
| work great. They're cheap enough that I can keep a pair in
| each instrument case. I do use them when listening to live
| music as well.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| If your ears are shaped well for the cheap ones, there's
| no real reason to spend the extra $200. But the fitted
| ones are comfortable to wear all day (literally).
| analog31 wrote:
| Indeed, I do well with Hearo's or ER20's, which are
| similar if not identical. Maybe they're a bit more
| visible than the fitted ones, but that's OK for the
| styles that I play -- mostly jazz and folk music.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Not just percussion, I know violon players who do (same
| brand), because violins are very close to their player's
| ear, and hearing is really important to violin players.
| [deleted]
| herodotus wrote:
| There is a wonderful YouTube video of Beethoven's 9th 4th
| movement taken and recorded next to the Timpanist. From this
| position, the brass dominates the rest of the orchestra. Fun to
| watch. I always enjoy watching the Timpanist in live performance.
| Worth sitting in the royal circle (ie upstairs) just to get this
| perspective. Video: https://youtu.be/XjvNd4yC8gs
| camtarn wrote:
| From the linked paper:
|
| 'Gunther Schuller (b. 1925), an influential horn player, writes:
| "The timpani's spreading wave-lengths back up through the horn,
| violently jarring the player's lips. Under these conditions split
| notes abound and what notes can be played develop a strong rasp.
| A half minute of this and the horn player will retain no
| sensitivity in his lips" (1962).
|
| ...
|
| This proximity effect with the timpani has also been highlighted
| as a potential source of injury to horn players (Horvath, 2010),
| where "the impact of the timpani on the horn is an extremely
| direct and painful one" (Schuller, 1962), "like being hit in the
| mouth" (Buckle, 2008), and "will also negatively affect
| endurance" (Hill, 2001).'
| [deleted]
| jay-anderson wrote:
| When I was young taking horn lessons my teacher told me that
| being too close to the timpani can increase your chance to miss
| notes. This paper is useful in showing some evidence for that.
| This problem is more unique to the horn as its bell points
| backwards (and to the horn player's right side). From the
| audience and conductor's perspective (the house) the horns are
| usually center or on the left side (stage right) of the stage and
| the timpani are on the right (stage left) so it isn't an issue.
| However sometimes you show up and you're pointing right at the
| timpani or bass drum. I played in one group for a while that did
| that and it was very frustrating working with them to change it
| (it never happened). They squeezed us in so tight that it just
| didn't work well for the horns. To be effective the horn really
| needs some space and good surfaces behind to reflect the sound
| into the hall.
| santoriv wrote:
| Hmmm i never noticed this. It's a lot worse to sit in front of
| the trumpets tbh. At least from a hearing loss perspective.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Eargasm...
| jacquesm wrote:
| To expand a bit on that: it's a brand of musicians earplugs.
| cpfohl wrote:
| Yeah I was a tubist. Timpanis were arms length away, I have to
| assume that the effect is only for French Horn players...that
| tiny mouthpiece and the continuous tapering and the intense
| flare at the end...it's also aimed a funny direction compared
| to the other brass instruments (a little to the side rather
| than up or straight ahead).
| xo5vik wrote:
| In a semi-confined space too - eg an orchestra pit at the
| opera... Musician wins landmark ruling over ruined hearing
| (2018) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144
| ycombinete wrote:
| This made me think instantly of the famous Shouting in the
| Datacenter video [0]
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4
| afandian wrote:
| Just to close the loop:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4BFvwwj-o
| jacquesm wrote:
| I think if you try to bring a Timpani into a data center that
| you may have some trouble during the admission phase.
| telesilla wrote:
| Youth orchestra, second violin, next to the cannons for
| Tchaikovksy's 1812. As measure 328 approaches, disobey the
| conductor, put down the violin and cover ears.
|
| https://youtu.be/0F5k70xwGSk?t=8m
| Eduard wrote:
| Didn't see the violin. What's the timestamp?
| telesilla wrote:
| Speaking from experience :)
| rzzzt wrote:
| Reading the title I thought it's going to be related to human
| physiology and was wondering how can you sit too close to your
| middle ear...
| anotheryou wrote:
| If you toot one horn in to another it's also a surprisingly
| strong disruption.
|
| I tried using it as an effect ones, but didn't really succeed to
| do anything useful (feeding sines through my trumpet while
| playing it with some Y adapter)
| brudgers wrote:
| Technically, trumpets are not horns. Horns have conical bores.
| Brass instruments have a cylindrical bores and a flare at the
| end. The flare of a brass instrument is mostly for projection.
| The conical bore of a horn is primarily for timbre.
| jasone wrote:
| You're right that trumpets have cylindrical bores, but that's
| not a universal characteristic of brass instruments. For
| example, cornets and euphoniums have conical bores, yet they
| are brass instruments; their cylindrical-bore counterparts
| are trumpets and baritones, respectively.
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