[HN Gopher] Next-generation Qi2 wireless charging standard embra...
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Next-generation Qi2 wireless charging standard embraces Apple's
MagSafe
Author : ValentineC
Score : 75 points
Date : 2023-01-03 20:04 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.macrumors.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.macrumors.com)
| chromakode wrote:
| This is potentially fantastic news, if only to have a universal
| magnetic mounting standard across mobile devices. The past few
| years have seen an explosion of cool applications of magsafe:
|
| - Corridor Digital made a multi-phone mounting rig for recording
| multi-focal-length slow-mo. Lots of interesting maker
| possibilities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8X16Gw3Qa4
|
| - Peak Design has a line of mounts which combine magsafe and a
| physical locking mechanism for sports
| https://www.peakdesign.com/collections/mobile
|
| - Continuity Camera mounts (for using your phone as a webcam) is
| a hacky but brilliant example of where a temporary magnetic mount
| is extremely useful
|
| As an Android user, this ecosystem was opened up by a Peak Design
| case (which is compatible), but I hope to someday have a phone
| with built-in magnets, too. But it's not useful unless the
| magnets are compatible everywhere!
|
| Science fiction writers have envisioned this for decades. I look
| forward to the future of finally being able to stick my phone to
| more things!
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| The one thing that's been bugging me, and this updated standard
| fails to address, is that many devices that would benefit from
| wireless charging are too small for Qi and MagSafe (ex. bicycle
| lights, toothbrushes and grooming products, etc.)
|
| A mini-Qi based on the Apple Watch charger, or a smaller ring
| of magnets inside with a compatible charging coil, would have
| been really outstanding... I feel like this standard is just
| another thing that will have to be revised in 3-5 years.
| bergie wrote:
| Earlier Google devices had magnets for Qi charging alignment. I
| think in the Nexus 4/Nexus 7 era. I had a Google Qi charger
| with strong enough magnets to hang the device on the wall.
|
| And then in typical Google fashion, the concept was dropped in
| a year or two. Happy that Apple (and now the Qi consortium)
| picked it up.
| moogly wrote:
| Yes, Nexus 4 + the official charger had that.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Oh this is exciting!
|
| What I really hope to see is a lapdock using this tech. I have a
| few lapdocks (basically laptop-shaped docks for your phone) and
| the most annoying thing about them is dealing with the short
| USB-C cable you need to plug your phone in. This would open the
| door to wireless charging from an arm that extends from the side;
| if you combine that with a wireless display standard (Miracast is
| the main non-Apple one these days though it's not well-supported)
| you could have a completely wireless lapdock that still charges
| your phone while you use it.
| csdvrx wrote:
| If magnets are used to give the correct orientation, why not also
| have POGO pins or indentations next to the coil?
|
| Case 1) the device only supports wireless charging (say because
| it's waterproof): business as usual
|
| Case 2) the device also has conductive metal dots: the POGO pins
| can then charge the device much faster.
| user_7832 wrote:
| Honestly I am not sure why more devices don't bother with pogo
| pins. It can provide close to the benefits of both wireless
| convenience, and wired efficiency together. My iPad and Amazfit
| watch are the only things I have that have pogo pins.
|
| (And yes they can get dirty etc but are also easy to clean. Not
| like USB ports don't gunk up, or Qi doesn't have issues either.
| Plus it's very likely cheaper!)
| vlovich123 wrote:
| POGO pins wouldn't really impact waterproofing unless I'm
| missing something (similar to how you can have a USBC /
| lightning port on a waterproof phone).
|
| Is super the real reason is this would have limited value
| because:
|
| A) you have this already through cable charging
|
| B) it's not clear it would meaningfully change the charging
| speed since you'd also need a communication standard (eg USB-
| PD) to negotiate the charge rate
|
| C) all of this is made moot by the fact that most people have a
| case on and don't take their phone out of their case to put it
| on a Qi charger which negates the benefit.
|
| So basically cost and complexity for limited to no value. Of
| course maybe C is solvable by extending the pin through the
| case but I would think it would add cost to the case + maybe
| create some structural challenges negating the shock
| absorption.
| GGO wrote:
| Cannot wait to see new devices pop up and make apple eco-system
| more diverse and less of a walled garden. Fingers crossed
| samwillis wrote:
| A number of years ago I worked with a colleague who had been one
| of the original electrical engineers at Splashpower [0] in the
| early 2000s. Splashpower was a Cambridge UK startup developing
| wireless inductive charging. Their aim was to create something
| similar to the multi device charging pad that Apple intended to
| launch but cancelled (the Splash Pad!), Apples was rumoured to be
| in development when I worked with them. He didn't think they
| would be able to achieve it (I think I remember him predicting
| high power draw and lots of heat, what is rumoured to have been
| the problem)
|
| From memory (this is about 8-10 years ago) Splashpower found that
| miss alignment of the coils massively impacted the performance
| and as a result struggled to make the multiple devices charger
| pad work. The magnetic alignment of Apples MagSafe system, or the
| chargers on the old Palm phones, should aid in making them
| significantly more efficient.
|
| Ultimately Splashpower went bust, the IP was brought by Fulton
| Innovation who, combing it with their own IP, then went on to
| create the Wireless Power Consortium [1] and the Qi charging
| standard.
|
| It's interesting how it's going full circle and Qi2 is now
| incorporating magnetic alignment.
|
| 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashpower
|
| 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECoupled#history
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| > predicting high power draw and lots of heat, what is rumoured
| to have been the problem)
|
| Or, if you're an induction cooktop manufacturer, _a feature_.
|
| I'm highly amused that we've gone from large / heavy coil based
| transformer AC adaptors, affectionately known as _wall-warts_ ,
| to highly efficient _tiny_ switch-mode electronics, just to jam
| a poorly wound and poorly aligned coil pair back in the
| circuit.
|
| My phone has 15 watt Qi charging, how novel.
|
| I'll stick to cables.
| KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
| I don't understand why Apple won't make a charging mat that
| charge directly through the electrical contacts on MagSafe
| instead of relying on the induction method.
| bradgessler wrote:
| Does Apple get a royalty per Qi2 charging unit? I didn't see that
| mentioned anywhere.
| bonney_io wrote:
| I love Qi, and I _really_ love MagSafe, so I 'm happy that
| magnetically-aligned-Qi is becoming the standard.
|
| Although, sadly, I suspect that Apple will continue to
| incorporate their own NFC identification into their Qi2 devices,
| and that alone will be what differentiates "MagSafe" from Qi2 --
| almost certainly including limiting faster wireless charging to
| MagSafe.
| post_break wrote:
| I'm ok with this. It doesn't make it proprietary, expands on
| using magnets for alignment (something done in Android many many
| years ago), and mentions expanding charging speed. Hopefully soon
| we will see Android adoption of magnets for alignment.
| stewarts wrote:
| Palm did it ages ago with the Pre and Pixi. Worked quite well.
| I will say, the newer Magsafe stuff is much stronger at helping
| with alignment, my Belkin dock feels like it vacuums onto my
| phone when I connect it. I recall the Pre and Pixi often
| requiring a bit more manual intervention.
| post_break wrote:
| It also had nano suction cup on the bottom, you could stick
| it to just about anything. Love that stuff.
| riley_dog wrote:
| > expands on using magnets for alignment (something done in
| Android many many years ago)
|
| > Hopefully soon we will see Android adoption of magnets for
| alignment.
|
| So they did it, but stopped?
| goosedragons wrote:
| Palm Pre did it too. Was great and made wireless charging
| great. It's not as good with just a coil.
| post_break wrote:
| Yep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvgz3CfISr0 2:55
| [deleted]
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I tried to jump on the Qi bandwagon and got a bunch of Qi
| chargers, and various devices (iPhone, Airpods, Mouse)
|
| Unfortunately, the experience just sucks. Charging is slow, if
| you misalign it it doesn't charge (some devices have the coil
| off-center!), devices get hot while charging, chargers that work
| well for phones don't work for other devices...
|
| I'm disappointed and I've mostly gone back to charging with
| cables.
|
| I haven't tried any Magsafe stuff yet, but since it only works
| with iPhones it's a non-starter. I don't want a charger that
| charges just a single device.
|
| If Qi2 gets adopted it may be worth a try, but I think ultimately
| wireless charging is a gimmick that may be useful in special
| scenarios (eg. car mount), but for the most part I don't think
| it's a replacement for cables.
| matwood wrote:
| Regular Qi stinks b/c of alignment issues. MagSafe is great if
| you're going to use wireless charging.
| MisterTea wrote:
| The problem with wireless chargers is you have to keep a thing
| sitting around vs a cable you can shove off to the side. I too
| bought a bunch but lost interest in using them as they were in
| the way.
| Bluestrike2 wrote:
| Personally, I have the opposite problem: whenever I push a
| cable off to the side, it'll inevitably fall down behind the
| desk/cabinet/side table/whatever. Clips can help, but it can
| still be a minor nuisance.
|
| That said, your complaint isn't uncommon. I build furniture
| on the side, and have built a couple desks and night stands
| with built-in wireless chargers for people who wanted
| everything hidden and out of the way. The charger gets
| mounted from the underside so that nothing is visible, and I
| inlay a marker--something like a ring or bowtie inlay--on the
| surface so you know where to align your phone.
|
| I've also seen chargers on the market that can be mounted
| into a hole you drill or are sized to fit standard wire
| grommet holes common on most desks for sale. That's way less
| fun (IMO), but anyone can install them with a few minutes and
| a hole saw (or an existing grommet hole, if it fits). No clue
| if you can find Magsafe ones, but I'd assume so.
| turtlebits wrote:
| Not a great concession, but FWIW, the MagSafe puck also charges
| the AirPods case. Same goes for the Apple Watch charger.
| rubatuga wrote:
| Yep, and the hotter your battery gets, the faster it's going to
| fail. Some estimates state that for every 15 degrees F over 77,
| battery life is cut in half. It's a lose lose situation :(
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| I bought a cheap wireless charging stand years ago, and it
| reliably charges my phone every night. My LG G6 developed
| chronic USB moisture sensor false-positives because of the lack
| of wear on the port.
| rhinoceraptor wrote:
| Magsafe chargers work with Android phones, it just won't snap
| into place unless you buy a specific case like the Peak Design
| Everyday case.
| guhidalg wrote:
| It's absolutely an amazing replacement for cables IF you can
| get the magnetic alignment that MagSafe has. Have you used a
| Mac? You really want to stick to the USB-C charger that can
| drag your computer off the table?
| danieldk wrote:
| _if you misalign it it doesn 't charge (some devices have the
| coil off-center!)_
|
| This is solved by MagSafe, the magnets are so strong that it
| snaps to the device. My wife always charges her phone with
| Apple's MagSafe charger. I also have one, but since I only
| charge overnight, plugging in a cable is not much effort.
|
| If Qi2 would become more popular, perhaps cafes, restaurants,
| etc. could have wireless charging spots.
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| I have a belkin 3-in-1 charger. The phone basically attaches
| via the magnet and "floats", so it has to align properly.
| Same with the Apple MagSafe charger that can also fast
| charge. It snaps in place. Both are great for lazy
| absentminded people like me.
| stewarts wrote:
| Got the Belkin magsafe 3-in-1 for a Christmas gift. It is
| amazing for someone who has far too many apple devices
| (Phone, Airpods, Watch, etc). Drastically reduced my
| clutter on the end stand.
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| Same reason I got one for my wife.
| Kuinox wrote:
| What does stops current cafes to have regular wireless
| charging spots ?
| mkmk wrote:
| Starbucks tried this in 2015!
| https://stories.starbucks.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/01/Fac... [pdf]
| Aardwolf wrote:
| > the magnets are so strong that it snaps to the device
|
| wouldn't that mean if you take your phone, the charger still
| sticks to it?
|
| when I was using qi, I'd have it on my desk, and of course I
| regularly pick up my phone with one hand to do something with
| it or take it with me, can't un-stick a charger at the same
| time with one hand...
| mattmaroon wrote:
| You can unstick it with one hand easily because you're
| normally using something like a vertical stand or a mat
| that's heavy enough. You just have to lift the phone from
| the bottom or top rather than the middle.
| JonathonW wrote:
| It doesn't stick strongly enough that you can't push it off
| with your fingers-- easier to do that one-handed than
| unplugging a Lightning or USB-C cable.
|
| With a heavier Magsafe charger (like most of the stands out
| there), you can just lift the phone off and the charger
| won't come with it. MagSafe's _just_ strong enough to hold
| a phone on a stand or hold a charger puck to the phone, but
| not much more.
| msisk6 wrote:
| I pick up my iPhone on a MagSafe charger with one hand all
| the time. As I pick it up I just use a finger to slide the
| MagSafe puck sideways and it releases. Not a big deal at
| all.
| eternityforest wrote:
| Isn't that a feature, since it allows while in use
| charging?
| [deleted]
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| An iPhone snaps in to the strong magnets in Apple's wireless
| charging pad, and I can say it works flawlessly and almost as
| fast as charging over USB-C. Using it all the time, also helps
| with wear on USB plugs.
| hedgehog wrote:
| I use Qi most of the time at my desks, cheap chargers from
| Anker and Ikea. Alignment by touch is second nature and easy
| with one hand (vs two to plug in a cable). It probably depends
| what your usage pattern is but I find it very convenient. I use
| a cable in my car because it's more reliable and less ambiguous
| whose phone should connect to the dash display.
| JamesSwift wrote:
| I got a pretty cheap anker QI charger that is "phone shaped"
| and havent had any issues. It looks something like this [1].
| You can easily align by feel even in the dark. It also has a
| circle where the coils are which makes it really easy align my
| airpods as well. Very happy overall.
|
| [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Charger-Charging-
| Station-C3/...
|
| EDIT: looks like this is the one I have https://www.ignite-
| supplies.com/anker-powerwave-7-5w-rectang...
| avalys wrote:
| That's great. Cars have been including integrated magnetic
| chargers for a few years now, and they're almost universally
| useless because it's impossible to get your phone properly
| aligned with them, and after a few bumps in the road they slide
| out of position anyway.
| MBCook wrote:
| It's easy to align in my car, but the phone will quickly
| wiggle/slide out of position as you drive, so it's just not
| worth it.
| smoldesu wrote:
| This is a great move for wireless charging as a whole, but I _do_
| have to question the fine-print here. Apple owns the MagSafe
| patents through 2030, which means they could pull a "MFi
| standard" situation and charge manufacturers licensing costs just
| to use "standard" technology.
|
| I'm still hopeful that this comes with no strings attached, but
| once bitten makes me twice shy.
| post_break wrote:
| Reading the press release it appears the WCP is adopting the
| alignment via magnets as the standard. And Qi2 will remain the
| standard with no gotchas.
| [deleted]
| scarface74 wrote:
| Once you agree to make your patents part of a standard, the
| standard committee forces all patent holders to license their
| patents under FRAND.
| TylerE wrote:
| the F stands for Fair, not Free.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I never said anything differently.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Yep. Historically though, Apple's standards have been less
| about creating convergent technology and more about
| reinforcing revenue streams. Look at the entire MFi line, a
| 'standard' that was defined by high-margin Chinese junk that
| slapped Apple icons on their Bluetooth smart speaker. There
| wasn't a Cambrian explosion of innovative iPhone tools, but
| instead a sea of useless iDogs and plastic boomboxes.
|
| Apple's greed has clearly hurt their own ecosystem in the
| past. They've made it completely obvious that their goal is
| indiscriminate rent collection, and I'd appreciate if that
| attitude would remain isolated from the ideals of open
| computing as a whole.
| scarface74 wrote:
| > Yep. Historically though, Apple's standards have been
| less about creating convergent technology and more about
| reinforcing revenue streams. Look at the entire MFi line, a
| 'standard'
|
| That was never a licensed standard overseen by a standards
| body.
|
| Apple contributed to the H.264 standard, and is also a
| major contributor to the USB C standard, as well as the
| Thunderbolt standard.
|
| > They've made it completely obvious that their goal is
| indiscriminate rent collection, and I'd appreciate if that
| attitude would remain isolated from the ideals of open
| computing as a whole.
|
| You realize that's how the entire industry works right?
| Cellular standards and most video and modern audio codecs
| are also licensed via a patent pool.
|
| There is no such thing as "open computing" where nothing is
| licensed from patent holders for anything that the vast
| majority of people would find usable.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Apple certainly has the legal autonomy to do all of this,
| I'm not disputing that. My point is that through these
| decisions, their behaviors obviously constitute market
| abuse. Something is gravely wrong if you can behave in
| the manner Apple has and become the world's largest
| company.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So is everyone else who you have to license from to
| create a modern cell phone also engaging in "market
| abuse"? Do you realize how much money both ARM and
| Qualcomm make from each cellphone?
|
| Do you realize how much Google makes from the patents
| they bought from Motorola?
|
| If you aren't in the Apple ecosystem, you pay Apple very
| little to create a cell phone, maybe a few tenths of a
| cent from H.264.
|
| Now compare that to the "essential patents" you have to
| license to create a 4G or 5G cellphone.
| rutierut wrote:
| Apple contributing to an open standard here must mean they've got
| ambitions to go portless with the iphones.
|
| With wireless-only charging, prevalence and compatibility is more
| important than exclusivity and using it as an USP which they
| usually seem to prefer.
| dagmx wrote:
| Idk if that is a good extrapolation necessarily, they also
| contribute to USB-C.
|
| More likely, it's better to just have their standard be the
| main one so they don't need to deal with the complexity of
| messaging "well this doesn't work on our phones etc"
| arsome wrote:
| Wireless only charging would be wasteful as it's rather
| inefficient (most tests show about 50% more energy put in to
| achieve the same charge) and this magnetic system is unlikely
| to work well for anyone who uses a case to achieve good coil
| alignment... I really hope the market doesn't go in this
| direction.
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