[HN Gopher] The cost of cheap TVs
___________________________________________________________________
The cost of cheap TVs
Author : clcaev
Score : 68 points
Date : 2023-01-03 17:55 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theatlantic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theatlantic.com)
| ubermonkey wrote:
| Our TV is a 3-year-old Samsung that tried pretty hard to get us
| to let it on the network. We let it, for a little while, to get
| cool active wallpaper features, but eventually did a reset and
| disabled it. We've never used the built-in clients at all; we
| drive it from the home media receiver, so its ultimate source is
| the AppleTV, the BluRay player, or the cable box.
|
| I don't think it's tried to get online on its own; it still shows
| outdated movies for streaming on its startup menu, and I assume
| those would update if it had newer data.
|
| I expect this TV to last a while, but realistically I guess I'll
| probably have to buy one or two more. I'm 52; it's only my 5th TV
| in about 30 years of having one (and I guess we're mildly odd in
| that we only have one TV at a time).
|
| Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I'm kinda surprised at
| which of my TVs was the longest-lived:
|
| 1. I bought a 27" tube TV in 1991 for a few hundred bucks. Still
| a student.
|
| 2. When it developed financially terminal issues, I bought a MUCH
| NICER 27" tube tv in 1996 for about a thousand. Picture was
| amazing. Flat TVs didn't really exist yet.
|
| 3. I won a big drawing at work in 2000, and used the proceeds to
| replace #2 with a 55" rear-projection MONOLITH of a Mitsubishi
| (about $3300), which was great because I'd moved and the 27" was
| too small for the new room.
|
| 4. Only 8 years later that Mitsubishi developed the Convergence
| Problem of Doom. Fixing it wasn't a good move, plus hang-on-wall
| TVs were available. We got a 47" Vizio LCD for about $1400.
|
| 5. A really good Black Friday deal in 2019 convinced us to
| upgrade to the 65" Samsung I mentioned above.
|
| My understanding is that #1 was repaired and used for another
| year or two by a FOAF before dying the true death.
|
| #2 I gave to my old roommate, who used it until like SIX YEARS
| AGO, no kidding. It was a fancy enthusiast TV (RCA's upmarket
| line), so I guess that tracks. Even then it was still working
| fine at nearly 20 years old; it just didn't have the connectors,
| capabilities, or the dimensions to be that guy's living room TV
| anymore.
|
| #4 is, I think, still being used by a friend of our housekeeper,
| at 14 years.
| [deleted]
| larrik wrote:
| After switching to Roku for my TVs (so much better than FireTV,
| at least), I find it easier to just get the TCL Roku TVs now.
| They're cheap, and have the Roku built right into them. Plus it's
| all in one remote, and I can even turn on my TV from my phone
| (handy when the kids misplace my remote). Heck, I can turn _off_
| the TV from the other side of the house.
|
| Overall, seems like the best tradeoff to me.
| MBCook wrote:
| The worst part is every TV has this problem, no matter how much
| you spend.
|
| You have to buy commercial displays or large monitors if you want
| to avoid it.
|
| There is no choice left in the market.
| dminor wrote:
| Sceptre is a brand that makes dumb TVs.
| rnd0 wrote:
| They tend to last all of about two months, in my personal
| experience.
| karaterobot wrote:
| Counter-anecdote: I've had a Sceptre one for about three
| years, zero issues. It was the 65" 4K, it cost about $500
| at the time.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| They make dumb 4K TVs up to 75".
|
| (I really wished they made an 85" when I was in the market a
| couple of years ago, instead I bought a TV from Costco and
| opened it up and disconnected the WiFi module before powering
| it up for the first time.)
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| This sounds really crappy, from France perspective (and Europe,
| generally).
|
| Our "smart" TVs are where the "smartness" is useless applications
| (mostly) but there is no requirement to be connected anywhere
| (that would be illegal), no ads (that would be illegal) and there
| are no options to get a TV that would be cheaper because it would
| show ads.
|
| I thought that customer protection was stronger in the US, or
| that at least the customer needs where taken into account (like
| the whole buy-try-return (which we did not have until a dozen
| years ago))
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Anecdata: I bought a Toshiba 55M550KU a month or so ago. I've
| never plugged it into my wired network, and didn't give it my
| WiFi password. Yes, the main menu is focused around all the
| things I could do with Internet access, but all I have to do is
| choose "inputs" and I can configure it as I like with no
| "CONNECTION REQUIRED" barriers. This means I've never updated the
| firmware, but I'm guessing those updates would mostly benefit the
| complex (and changing) apps that I don't use.
| nfca wrote:
| Is router or DNS level ad-blocking an option for those of us who
| are more technically savvy? e.g. https://NextDNS.io
| zikduruqe wrote:
| Not if your TV is hardcoded to use 8.8.8.8
|
| Looking at you TCL.
| danbr wrote:
| For those who are able, a pihole is a must when connecting a
| smart TV (or any other "smart" device for that matter) to the
| internet.
|
| It's shockingly disturbing the amount of traffic my Samsung TV
| produces, even when watching OTA stations. It easily queries
| Samsung cloud domains more than any other device on my network.
| Thankfully I am able to sinkhole all those requests without
| totally breaking tv functionality, but after paying hundreds of
| dollars for a television, I don't need to give them any more of
| my data for financial gain.
| bumby wrote:
| > _If you do not pay your rent, the eviction process will
| likely start immediately_
|
| One of the points of the article is that if everybody did this,
| TVs would be much, much more expensive.
|
| FTA:
|
| _" "post-purchase monetization," and it means they can sell
| TVs almost at cost and still make money over the long term by
| sharing viewing data."_
| gigel82 wrote:
| I wish a reputable manufacturer would just make "dumb TVs" (aka
| monitors). I don't even need a TV tuner, just a display panel
| with the latest HDMI, ARC and CEC support such that I can control
| all features from my media player's remote (including turning
| on/off the TV, sound, etc.)
|
| There are things like AW5520QF, but they tend to cost 3x - 4x as
| much as a TV with the same exact panel because of all the
| "gamery" features.
| akeck wrote:
| Maybe look at "commercial monitors"?
|
| https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1557462-REG/sharp_4t_...
| libraryatnight wrote:
| I wonder if this is going to be a market. I would also like
| "dumb" options, to more than just TVs, and I'm hearing the
| sentiment elsewhere. Probably expensive and considered niche or
| high end?
| massysett wrote:
| > There are things like AW5520QF, but they tend to cost 3x - 4x
| as much as a TV with the same exact panel because of all the
| "gamery" features.
|
| You just made the article's point. What you say you want does
| exist, but you're not willing to pay for it.
| rasz wrote:
| Because I am being charged 3x more for less hardware.
| zuminator wrote:
| The article says that regular "smart" TVs are being sold at
| or near cost. That means conceivably sone manufacturer could
| sell a dumb TV at just 50% markup and still make a nice
| profit. I think that's what the grandparent post is wishing
| for. It's true there are those expensive reference monitors
| and so forth, but those are overpriced because they're geared
| for the corporate market. There's nothing comparable geared
| for the ordinary consumer. Honestly despite the frequent
| calls for their production, there probably isn't enough
| demand to sustain a dumb TV consumer market. It's like how
| small-screened smartphones never sell as much as you'd expect
| given the Internet's seeming love for them.
|
| Anyway, I know nothing about the project but there is a WebOS
| root/jailbreak that works on some LG models. GP might want to
| look into it.
|
| https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Is it possible that all the software that makes a TV "smart" is
| near zero marginal cost, but it can be used to market and sell
| a lower quality panel. Whereas the higher quality panel will
| sell itself due to being higher quality.
|
| I have also never been bothered by the "smart features" of Sony
| TVs. I just do not connect it to a network.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I've found the opposite to be true, gaming monitors have a
| ton of specs that their buyers will sacrifice panel quality
| for, and manufacturers take full advantage of it.
|
| You won't find normal users willingly playing the panel
| lottery for example
|
| (for those not familiar, that's buying $1,000+ monitors
| _knowing_ there 's a good chance you'll need to return them
| because of panel defects, and just returning them until you
| find one that's acceptable)
| xur17 wrote:
| Pretty much this. The "smart" features of a TV really don't
| cost much at all, and make a TV a LOT more marketable. Given
| that perspective, why would a TV manufacturer choose to
| remove the smart features from the TV? This wouldn't enable
| them to sell the TV for a lower price.
| WindyCityBrew wrote:
| The "smarts" of a smart tv is just spyware(adware) by a
| different name that actively subsidizes and reduces the cost
| of low-end TVs.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| Why not just buy a dumb TV and not connect it to WiFi?
|
| There's been a bunch of gnashing of teeth about how they'll
| connect to open WiFi networks, but I can't remember the last
| time I came across a public WiFi network without a captive
| portal that would block their attempt to phone home. That seems
| to have died off in the last few years.
|
| And if you're prone to tinkering you can just as easily connect
| one through an SBC and block all traffic
| babypuncher wrote:
| > I can't remember the last time I came across a public WiFi
| network without a captive portal that would block their
| attempt to phone home.
|
| Better yet, how many open WiFi networks are there around your
| house? For me, the answer is currently 0. People don't leave
| their WiFi open today like they did 15-20 years ago. Even the
| wireless hotspot feature on your phone makes you use WPA.
| slacka wrote:
| > People don't leave their WiFi open
|
| Yes they do. From my 1st WRT54G to my latest AX mesh, I
| have never had a WiFi password. My friends and family that
| were visiting over the Holidays apricated it. Everyone used
| it, no one asked me for the password.
|
| Are people still Wardriving? Even if they are, the odds of
| a malicious hacker coming to my neighbored is up there with
| getting stuck by lightning. Not losing sleep over it. Why
| should I?
| trifurcate wrote:
| 1) Besides access control, having an unencrypted WiFi
| network is not great because your entire internet/local
| traffic is open to be sniffed. High-gain antennae, etc.
| You are essentially screaming the contents of (what would
| be) your ethernet cable into the void.
|
| 2) Access control is exactly the point. I suppose you
| could ban the TV's MAC address from your open network
| (and I suppose a sufficiently malicious TV firmware could
| randomize its MAC address), but your stated purpose
| (allowing open network access) is not exactly compatible
| with what you presumably wish to do (disallow network
| access to a smart TV).
| deafpolygon wrote:
| Even more importantly, anyone can jump on the wifi and
| start downloading illegal software and it'd be tied to
| GP.
| babypuncher wrote:
| The amount of risk people will subject themselves to in
| exchange for a marginal at best increase in convenience
| never ceases to amaze me.
|
| There are a dozen good reasons why every piece of
| consumer grade networking hardware released in the past
| 15 years is _not_ configured this way by default.
| asdff wrote:
| Sounds like its time for a wifi password unless you want
| all your neighbors smart TVs using your bandwidth to
| update firmware and send telemetry and download ads :)
| [deleted]
| gigel82 wrote:
| Amazon is working on things like Matter which is just turned
| on by default on all Alexa devices and I'm sure they'll sell
| access to this "backchannel" if they're not already using it.
|
| And there is precedent with Apple for example using
| everyone's phones to send airtag location data (enabled by
| default), or Xfinity / Comcast opening a second SSID (hidden
| or not) if you use their modem / gateway combo.
|
| You don't need to have any of those things, it's enough that
| your neighbors do for future "unconnected" smart TVs in your
| home to piggyback on.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| I believe this exists, you just want to search for "commercial
| display".
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Commercial displays often omit consumer oriented features
| like "gaming" / low latency modes and modern display
| technologies like microled carry even larger premiums than
| the consumer alternatives.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Just be prepared to spend a lot more money on a worse
| display.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Subcategories of this include things like "digital signage
| monitors" and "hospitality monitors". For example, here's a
| B&H search for those subtypes which support 4K and are 65" or
| larger.
|
| https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Flat-Panel-
| Displays/...
| daveevad wrote:
| > I don't even need a TV tuner
|
| ATSC is a pretty awesome standard. There's parts of the newer
| ATSC standard that even supports 4k over the air. Other parts
| are more concerning from the data tracking perspective but it
| seems like there's an opportunity for a SmartTV that actually
| acts in the user's interest that is actually desirable and has
| a tuner.
| danielodievich wrote:
| I have a smart LG connected to a blu-ray player and a computer
| for gaming/streaming. It has never been joined to the wifi. It is
| hooked to the network for firmware updates via cat5 wire, but
| that wire is physically unplugged all the time. If I want
| something streamed, I stream it off the computer. I've not seen
| any degradation from the TV, it just works. Problem solved?
| babypuncher wrote:
| LG TVs can be updated from a USB drive. This lets you get
| firmware updates without needing to do a factory reset to
| remove the ads that would otherwise be downloaded when you
| connect to the internet.
| pmontra wrote:
| I guess this is how this project managed to work
| http://openlgtv.github.io/
|
| Unfortunately the repositories are not very up to date.
| cma wrote:
| Smart TV companies are going to begin to move to tech like this
| to pick up the telemetry when a jogger comes by with an airtag
| type device in their wallet:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...
|
| It could happen with one of the firmware updates you plug in
| for, and when you plug in it could also dump stored telemetry,
| in some cases (Samsung) including screenshots of your desktop
| if you use your TV as a monitor.
| 29083011397778 wrote:
| Until storage gets cheap enough that the TV can simply cache
| it's information about you indefinitely, and upload as part of
| a firmware update.
|
| Hell, that could be today, just rotating logs and discarding
| the oldest.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If a TV is being used only as a display for external devices
| such as Apple TV or gaming consoles, it is a reasonable
| assumption to assume the TV will never need a firmware
| update.
|
| At least in my 15 years of using flat panel TVs, I have never
| seen a need for a firmware update.
| toast0 wrote:
| > At least in my 15 years of using flat panel TVs, I have
| never seen a need for a firmware update.
|
| Never had any HDMI negotiation issues or CEC issues or OTA
| demuxer crashes, I guess? Or adaptive backlight dimming
| issues... Lots of software in TVs these days.
| adolph wrote:
| HDMI version updates may cause machines with older decoders
| to not work without an update. Its no biggie until you
| attach a streaming service dongle and it can't send its
| encrypted HDMI.
| 29083011397778 wrote:
| Which brings us back to Mr. Gabe Newell and his "Piracy
| is a service problem" quote, but we've already had _that_
| discussion on HN this week.
| spear wrote:
| Times have changed. My TV (a 2018 Sony) needed a firmware
| update to support Dolby Vision. My receiver needed a
| firmware update to support eARC.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I have an LG C2 OLED that I have never connected to the internet.
| It's not cheap, but it's got a killer UI and works incredibly
| well. I dig that the remote is kinda like a wii controller in
| that you can physically move it around to use it like a pointer
| device. I stayed at an Airbnb this last week which had a similar
| LG model that _was_ connected to the internet and while it was
| great to have all the streaming services online and available, it
| was kinda irritating to see all kinds of alerts and popups once
| in a while. Modern TV 's are good as long as you keep them in the
| dark, at least I can say that for LG.
| spike021 wrote:
| I bought this same tv a month ago. I ended up connecting it to
| my wifi, actually. I hadn't planned to since I have an older 4k
| Apple TV but decided to try the native apps.
|
| With ads and tracking turned off, I haven't seen any ads other
| than a single one on the homescreen, which I rarely use as it
| is, for a $25 off thing for LG's website.
| tylerflick wrote:
| I have the same experience with my LG C2. One thing that I can
| recommend is buying a decent router that can segment LAN
| traffic. This way you can connect the TV to your local network
| to utilize the Homekit functionality, but block all outbound
| internet traffic.
| tqi wrote:
| > This all means that, whatever you're watching on your smart TV,
| algorithms are tracking your habits. This influences the ads you
| see on your TV, yes, but if you connect your Google or Facebook
| account to your TV, it will also affect the ads you see while
| browsing the web on your computer or phone.
|
| Definitely sucks that consumers don't really have alternative
| brands to choose from but personally, I don't have an issue with
| ad targeting and am happy to take the discount. What does bother
| me is that "smart" devices invariable take longer to start up
| than their "dumb" predecessors.
| seiferteric wrote:
| I was excited to read about the new ultra wide monitors Samsung
| is announcing at CES, but to my dismay I read they come with
| "smart" features and apps and a "game center"... in a MONITOR. I
| hope this stuff is optional and able to be disabled, but I don't
| have a lot of hope.
| acomjean wrote:
| I bought one of these. I needed a new screen and went to the
| local store. Its a large 42" 4K Samsung monitor and it comes
| with a remote to use the built in youtube/netflics.. if I had
| given it internet access.
|
| Its been a few months and even with not internet its still fine
| and hasn't tried any tricks (that I know of..). The speakers
| are good, but its annoying to have to pay for a computer inside
| the monitor I'm not using.
| tristor wrote:
| CostCo sells several brands, but in particular Sony, that they
| have arranged to ensure that these TVs are fully functional when
| you decline the T&Cs and never connect it to the Internet. It is
| the only reason I currently own a "smart" TV, is because I could
| be reasonable certain that this was controllable. Otherwise, I'd
| probably only use projectors right now because these are still
| commonly purchaseable at consumer pricing without "smart"
| features that are unskippable.
| zmk5 wrote:
| I'm very interested in this too. Is there information on their
| website that specifies which Sony televisions allow this?
| pessimizer wrote:
| > CostCo sells several brands, but in particular Sony, that
| they have arranged to ensure that these TVs are fully
| functional when you decline the T&Cs and never connect it to
| the Internet.
|
| Do you have a reference for this? I guarantee that it would be
| interesting for people.
| [deleted]
| mvexel wrote:
| The 55" LG I purchased at Costco for less than $400 a couple of
| years ago works great and I've never connected it to the
| internet.
|
| [edit] looked it up, it's this one:
| https://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-55UM7300AUE-4k-uhd-tv
|
| Of course, who knows if they've since updated the OS and make
| it impossible to use without establishing a network
| connection..
| kmbfjr wrote:
| They're not fully functional in the case of Sony.
|
| Without internet there is no guide data for off-air TV even
| though it is not only part of the ATSC stream, Sony is decoding
| it. I know this because the pop up menu for the channel line
| has the name and time of the program being watched. That had to
| come off air if the internet is disabled.
|
| Declining everything and setting up the TV as "basic" still has
| the underlying Google TV OS reaching out to the Play store,
| Android update, plus something in the Google IP block in China.
| Yes, China. And three net blocks from Microsoft.
|
| Carefully selecting and permitting only the AWS Cloudfront net
| block will restore guide data, but it will cause the Google TV
| OS to howl loudly about no internet access. Allowing it to hit
| www.google.com shuts most of it up, but I will be poking at the
| OS to find out what needs to be shut off. Developer mode is
| available.
|
| Sony is not using anything to report what the user is watching,
| network traffic is non-existent when viewing something on HDMI
| inputs.
|
| This was not a cheap TV, Sony promised they would honor my
| requests not to be monetized, but my need for their guide data
| suggests otherwise (PSIP is not entirely broken, just slow).
| That doesn't matter, Google is there to pick up the slack on
| the over the shoulder browsing.
|
| It will be relegated to HDMI use only, just like the Samsung it
| replaced.
| semiquaver wrote:
| Is there any concrete research on the behavior of smart TVs when
| you've disabled telemetry? I leave mine disconnected but I'm
| curious to what extent different brands actually honor the opt
| out settings that are available.
| gnicholas wrote:
| What happens if you buy a used TV and the previous owner agreed
| to a bunch of TOS already? Should you just assume that a used TV
| has all imaginable tracking enabled?
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> What happens if you buy a used TV and the previous owner
| agreed to a bunch of TOS already?_
|
| Then you go in the menu and hit the factory reset option.
| mvexel wrote:
| I wonder how much data traditional cable companies collect these
| days. Their services sure haven't gotten any cheaper.
|
| I was very happy to ditch Comcast a few years ago but the
| streaming landscape has become so confusing that I am about to
| give up on trying to figure out what subscriptions I need to
| cobble together to watch the sports I am interested in.
| null_object wrote:
| A lot of people asking why quality TVs, that don't spy on you or
| force you to watch ads in their interface, aren't available for
| those willing to pay more.
|
| But these TVs _are_ available [0] - I've recommended them many
| times on this site. I have one myself and been really happy with
| it for a few years.
|
| The trouble is finding them for sale - they can no longer be
| bought anywhere directly here in Sweden, for instance.
|
| That's due to the biggest problem of all: finding buyers willing
| to pay more for a TV.
|
| [0] https://www.loewe.tv/int
| neuralRiot wrote:
| Look for hospitality or commercial TVs
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Also- "digital signage"
|
| NEC makes some nice ones that were all over one of my past
| companies in fairly rough environments (manufacturing floor).
| jagaerglad wrote:
| You can check (1) for a swedish conpany selling reasonably
| cheap TV's without all the smart stuff (they don't even have
| TV-antenna receiver). They are more or less just monitors with
| HDMI etc. Perfect for connecting an old linux laptop or
| something and make it a smart TV on your own terms (btw I'm not
| affiliated to the company by any means)
|
| (1)
| https://swedx.se/index.php?cPath=133_149&osCsid=895096b764aa...
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| I am not affiliated either. But I have them at work as
| dashboard monitors and an old one retired to home as
| streaming TV screen.
| nhchris wrote:
| > That's due to the biggest problem of all: finding buyers
| willing to pay more for a TV.
|
| The price is obvious before you buy it, the spyware isn't.
| mdasen wrote:
| > That's due to the biggest problem of all: finding buyers
| willing to pay more for a TV.
|
| Looking at one dealer's website in the UK, they're selling a
| 65-inch LG OLED C2 for PS1,700 which is on sale marked down
| from PS2,700. The 65-inch Loewe OLED is PS3,900 - more than
| twice the cost. The price differential isn't just a couple
| hundred more. It's a couple thousand more.
|
| I think specialty items like this become tough because there
| isn't the same market pressure. With the LG OLEDs, there's
| pressure from Samsung, Sony, Vizio, and others on the price.
| Likewise, there's supply chain pressure - if LG and others
| start making more TVs, there is pressure to lower the price.
|
| I think the issue is that there usually isn't an option for one
| to pay a small additional fee to opt-out of this garbage. For
| example, I don't think Roku, LG, or anyone is making PS220/year
| off each customer (assuming a 10-year TV lifespan). That's the
| up-charge for the Loewe TV: PS220/year for 10 years. If it were
| just an additional PS100-300, I think some people would go for
| it. Instead, it's more than the price of a second TV.
|
| I think the issue is that these TVs are way more than the
| revenue that spying companies are making off the data. For
| example, the article says that Roku makes around 83% of its
| $2.7B in revenue as "platform revenue". That includes both the
| ads and spying, but it also takes a cut of subscription revenue
| from services you sign up for. Let's generously say that two-
| thirds of that 83% is ads/spying. We're talking about
| $1.5B/year. Roku has 65M active accounts and I'm guessing an
| average of 2 TVs per account. So they're making maybe $12/year
| per Roku device. I'm not saying it's insignificant revenue.
| It's huge revenue when we're talking about all the users.
|
| But there's no option for me to say "I'd rather pay the
| $12/year and avoid all the ads/spying." Instead, I need to
| spend 20x that to get away from the ads/spying.
|
| To an extent, Apple fills this niche a bit, but not entirely.
| It would be great to see Loewe start selling Loewe os7 devices
| separate from their TVs. I think there could be a market for a
| $150-200 smart-TV device that wouldn't be so ad-driven - or
| maybe a $50 smart-TV device with a $15/year fee. It's hard to
| sell anything without recurring revenue in a world where you
| need to keep updating and supporting software. Still, $15/year
| is a tiny amount compared to the PS3,900 TV.
|
| Yes, a smart TV could still possibly do content recognition on
| what is displayed on the screen, but presumably HDCP should
| prevent that and I don't think a mainstream TV manufacturer
| would want to draw that amount of ire defeating copy
| protection. It would also be a lot of work on identifying the
| content without the ability to act on it. Sure, you now know
| what someone is watching, but they're using a platform that you
| don't control and can't serve ads on. If I'm using a Fire TV
| and they're spying on me, they can use that information to
| serve me ads, suggest other content someone has paid them to
| suggest, etc. If I'm using Loewe os7, they can't do the things
| that would earn them the money.
| gog wrote:
| Loewe is expensive, I am pretty sure Sony doesn't make over
| 1kEUR for each TV sold, also I have a Sony smart TV that is ~6
| years old, it doesn't show any ads.
| bradreaves2 wrote:
| I have been reading tech folks lament the disappearance of dumb
| screens for years.
|
| I finally bought my first new TV in 2020, a Sony with Android TV.
| I have never connected it to the Internet. Instead, it displays
| an AppleTV or a gaming machine.
|
| It has been an amazing reliable display at a reasonable price,
| every bit as good as the imagined ideal dumb TV.
|
| So why all the pearl clutching? Do other brands require Internet
| to turn on and display HDMI?
| anonymousab wrote:
| There are tvs that will stop working if they don't get an
| active connection to update/get new ads/send telemetry after
| some period of time. There are tvs that will simply connect to
| any open wifi network that they can.
|
| These traits are slowly but surely becoming unavoidable if
| you're looking for a higher quality screen.
|
| Cached ad insertion in front of the video signal from connected
| devices is inevitable.
| jmole wrote:
| What TVs exactly?
| BoorishBears wrote:
| > These traits are unavoidable if you're looking for a higher
| quality screen.
|
| That is not true. For _TVs_ is an inverse relationship
| between quality and how aggressive the "smart" parts are.
|
| The open WiFi thing was some low end Samsung, and it's been a
| long while since I've seen an open WiFi network that doesn't
| have a captive portal that would block the connection.
|
| And I've never seen a TV that would refuse to work without an
| internet connection, and I can't imagine anything but the
| most bottom end no-name TV trying to pull that.
| toast0 wrote:
| > There are tvs that will simply connect to any open wifi
| network that they can.
|
| Don't bring it to the airport or out shopping? Who has an
| open wifi network in range of their home? (I'm out of touch
| though, I live in the woods, and can only occasionally see my
| neighbor's networks, I get to use all the channels for
| myself, muhahaha)
|
| > Cached ad insertion in front of the video signal from
| connected devices is inevitable.
|
| Nobody is willing to run an ad program with cached ads. I
| tried to set one up at my previous job, because it made more
| sense than live ads, but nope... not going to happen;
| advertisers want real time control and stats.
| thenewwazoo wrote:
| As a data point, I run an open SSID with QoS limiting
| throughput to 1.5 Mbps that permits only ports 80 and 443.
| It's enough for someone to check their email (or homework).
| vidanay wrote:
| I have open WiFi. If you are close enough to receive a
| signal from my WAP, you are already on my property (or
| intentionally using a high gain directional antenna.)
| asdff wrote:
| I just checked and there is no open wifi near my apartment.
| Telecoms don't default open wifi anymore for their routers.
| pixl97 wrote:
| This is a very isotemporal statement. All it takes is some
| hacker in learning to setup an open AP just to see how many
| people connect.
| nickthegreek wrote:
| Ive heard these assertions about their TVs from people but
| never any proof.
| smusamashah wrote:
| On the other hand I bought a smart TV for youtube and other
| movie streaming apps.
|
| I am in UK and don't even need live TV and pay its licencing
| fee. Smart TV where I can watch movies, songs, play videos from
| my phone or computer is the TV i need.
| xen2xen1 wrote:
| There are stories of TVs just using open wifi, for one. Two,
| cheap 5g will probably let the TV manufacturers have a cheap
| way to get ads without wifi and send back screenshots of what
| you're watching like they do now over wifi. So the workarounds
| you mention are probably short term.
| [deleted]
| coldpie wrote:
| > There are stories of TVs just using open wifi, for one.
|
| There is zero evidence of this ever happening.
| nimbius wrote:
| this is surprisingly simple to countermeasure, just pull the
| SMA antennae leads from the board, and cap the connectors
| with a few drops of metallic fingernail polish.
|
| for surface-mount antennae (which cant be used for 5g or 5ghz
| wifi) you would just brush the same metallic fingernail
| polish on the trace :)
| anonymousab wrote:
| Some TVs have an effective countermeasure to that of
| "connect me for an update/phone home and new ads from the
| same servers or I will stop working".
| asdff wrote:
| Name and shame them then. Everyone says these things
| about certain smart TVs but no one warns which ones they
| actually are that are doing these things. Mine doesn't,
| LG 40" 1080p LED smart tv, so put that one in the good
| list.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| Assuming you can even get to the board without damaging the
| device. And then you lose warranty, and the resale value
| drops due to scratches.
| vidanay wrote:
| Since when is resale value a consideration for a
| commodity device that is likely to be used until the day
| it dies?
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| Since there are people who want to sell them. Like the
| nearly 400 sellers on ebay just for Sony: https://www.eba
| y.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=bravia&_sac...
|
| Those people deserve a solution, too.
| solarmist wrote:
| Resale value? TVs are so cheap even goodwill doesn't want
| them.
| brewdad wrote:
| My Goodwill takes them as they are a designated e-waste
| recycler for my city. :)
| czx4f4bd wrote:
| And this is why I have avoided buying a smart TV for almost
| ten years now. A TV is a consumer product. I should not
| have to open it up and modify the fucking hardware just to
| make it work how I want.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| You didn't buy a smart TV for ten years because of a
| (frankly unlikely) hypothetical?
|
| I've bought smart TVs, not connected them to WiFi, and
| that was the end of it.
|
| You can hear whispers about all kinds of sneaky things
| like refusing to work, but some of the best TVs out right
| now are LG smart TVs that will function completely
| identically to a dumb TV if you don't connect them to the
| internet.
| czx4f4bd wrote:
| No, this is just one of many reasons I haven't yet bought
| a smart TV. I probably will give in this year, but only
| because I can finally afford something much larger than
| what I have today.
|
| Here's the thing: At the end of the day, a smart TV has
| capabilities that I don't need or want, including to
| change how it functions without warning or consent.
| However unlikely the possibility is, a smart TV still has
| the _capability_ to connect to an open network, phone
| home, and start doing shit I don 't want, which means I
| have to trust it to not do that.
|
| On the other hand, my old dumb TV has none of those
| capabilities, so I can trust it precisely because I don't
| need to trust it. I know it can't do anything except
| display what it receives on its inputs.
|
| Therefore, any time I've considered replacing my TV with
| a newer one, I've always weighed predictability against
| uncertainty and opted in favor of the predictability of
| what I own.
|
| Maybe that's overly paranoid of me, but at the end of the
| day, I just haven't wanted a new TV as much as I've
| wanted something I can trust.
| asdff wrote:
| I can also vouch for LG not doing anythign scummy. Do you
| even have open wifi near your TV? I don't, all the dozens
| of neighborhood routers are all password protected by
| default from the telecom. You'd have to intentionally
| make an open network these days, unlike 15 years ago when
| the situation was the opposite.
| czx4f4bd wrote:
| I live in an apartment complex with a lot of neighbors
| and a fair amount of churn, so I have actually seen open
| networks nearby. I also can't be sure that someone won't
| move in and create a new one.
| pixl97 wrote:
| >You'd have to intentionally make an open network these
| days,
|
| So any 2 bit hacker wannabe in an apartment complex? I
| mean if I was a teenager in the wifi days I would have
| been playing games like that.
| xen2xen1 wrote:
| Oh, and I forgot about Amazon Sidewalk or things like it
| mentioned elsewhere.
| nhchris wrote:
| > So why all the pearl clutching?
|
| Because it's part of a trend of our possessions turning hostile
| to us. It's hardware that you pay for and supposedly own, that
| betrays you, spies on you and acts against your interest,
| covertly or at least discreetly.
|
| That you are for now able to prevent it is besides the point.
| An implementation detail, that will change as soon as our
| corporate masters want it to.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I once worked on part of a project for a certain kind of set-
| top streaming box (no, not one you've likely ever heard of).
|
| In discussions with the client they explained that it was
| _impossible_ to get lower than about double the cost of a
| comparably-powerful Roku and still turn a profit, without
| supplementing with income from spyware, advertising, and
| various "partner programs" on the box. Which makes it damn
| hard to sell the things unless you've got some other angle to
| work (so, Apple can pull off $250 streaming boxes, but some
| new company? They better have a _really good_ pitch, and they
| 're gonna struggle more than they otherwise might to get on
| store shelves, which is a _whole other_ thing). In our case
| they did have a niche they were targeting that meant they
| didn 't want or need advertising and such, but the price
| point still hurt, and they _couldn 't_ do better without
| getting into adware and spyware.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| This sort of business relies on the normalization of these
| practices through slow, incremental, change.
|
| Unfortunately, it seems to be working. Younger people see
| being measured, tracked, and advertised to as table stakes
| for having access to anything.
|
| I don't blame the younger folks for this, as much of the
| motivation for acceptance is the economics involved. They may
| not be able to afford all the 'requirements' of modern living
| if they had to pay the 'i am not the product' premium.
| mrweasel wrote:
| > So why all the pearl clutching?
|
| Because the idea that a TV can spy on me is pretty repulsing.
| To be in compliance with the GDPR I suppose it should be pretty
| easy to disable, but the fact is that some moron thought that
| this was ever a good idea to begin with is infuriating. I don't
| think it's pearl clutching, it's anger, directed at both the
| manufacturer and the rest of the population that either doesn't
| know or care that they viewing habits are being tracked.
|
| Still I just take the same route as you, my TV is just never
| going to touch the internet. The angry part in me just want the
| EU to force TVs to display a small blink light in the corner of
| the screen anytime viewing data is leaving the TV.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| I have one of the TVs mentioned in the article, a TCL Roku TV,
| and I do the same as you: Apple TV only, never hooked the TV up
| to the internet. Very reliable, cheap, and dumb.
|
| I think most people just balk at the price of an external media
| device when their TV has "it" (but of course not the same
| quality "it") built in, and so they end up with a crappy, data-
| mining, ad-riddled, experience. You get what you pay for.
| bumby wrote:
| My major gripe is that my smart tv updates its software all the
| time. When it does, it always seems to break some
| functionality. I often consider going back to my smaller "dumb"
| TV just to get away from the constant headache of wondering how
| to fix an streaming service that was previously working just
| fine. I am probably an outlier in the HN community in that I
| don't generally spend a lot of time customizing my electronics.
| For the general user like me, default settings in a smart tv
| can be a bad time.
| semiquaver wrote:
| Not sure about apple TVs but many set top boxes like rokus are
| just as bad if not worse in terms of content recognition and
| telemetry.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| AppleTV, by dint of being a product of a hardware company
| that has made privacy a part of its appeal, doesn't monetize
| your data. I have no doubt Apple can tell what we watch, but
| since they're not selling the data or using it to run ads on
| the device it doesn't bother me.
| xyzzy123 wrote:
| Like the flashing 12s time on a microwave, there's often a ui
| indicator that the tv is "not set up correctly".
|
| This severely vexes people with OCD, who want their TV set up
| "correctly" and maybe to receive updates, but also not to spy
| on them.
| OneLeggedCat wrote:
| > why all the pearl clutching?
|
| My vehicle has a cellular internet connection that I cannot
| easily disable. My insurance company is among the many that
| would love to get at that data. TV's are valuable enough that
| such a connection will be coming to them too eventually.
| sjsdaiuasgdia wrote:
| I bought a new Samsung TV about a year ago. It has smart stuff
| that I don't care to use as I have a PC connected and a
| Chromecast w/ Google TV. I just want it to display HDMI signals
| generated by one of those devices.
|
| On initial power-on, the TV aggressively pushed me to set up
| internet access and accept a terms & conditions statement. It
| took some degree of dancing to find a way past the setup wizard
| without completing these.
|
| I am very careful when I select inputs. If I hit the Input
| button on the remote to switch between devices, I need to make
| sure I go no further than one step left or right to select the
| other input. If I go too far, the next selections will tell me
| that I have still not set up internet and accepted the t&c's
| and I must do so before I use the feature. This happens
| regardless of whether I press 'Enter' to actively select them.
|
| I've actually had much your opinion for years, but the TV
| manufacturers really are stepping up their game. My previous
| Samsung smart TV I was able to use the "just don't configure
| it" approach and everything was peachy. The landscape is
| changing.
| sjf wrote:
| I specifically bought a Samsung 'digital signage' display
| instead of a 'TV' because that was the closest I could find
| to a dumb TV, and I have the same experience. There is an
| accept terms & conditions popup that requires the internet
| that takes up the bottom third of the screen which comes up
| basically when doing anything with that involves the TV
| remote.
|
| Even if you _do_ accept the terms the conditions, it comes
| back as soon as you are disconnected from the internet. I am
| extremely disappointed with the experience.
| charcircuit wrote:
| It sounds like you are just making life hard on yourself. You
| could take a few minutes out of your day to set it up and not
| have to worry about it.
| wccrawford wrote:
| My new LG periodically turns itself on to tell me that if I
| connect it to the internet I can use voice commands.
|
| Before that, when it _was_ connected, it would show me
| advertisements over top of my TV signal occasionally.
| ortusdux wrote:
| Automatic content recognition (ACR) can be performed by the TV
| directly, so it can be video-source agnostic.
|
| https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...
| jupp0r wrote:
| How will it be tied to your identity?
| jtbayly wrote:
| I do volunteer IT work for a private school. One of the TVs
| quit working. It would turn on, but you couldn't select any of
| the inputs (eg HDMI). It wouldn't work until I registered it
| online with a verified email address and went through a long
| (multi-page) process on their website, where it asked me for
| all my favorite TV shows, used dark patterns to imply I needed
| to give them a Credit Card, etc.
|
| So, yes, the pearl clutching is for a reason.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Yikes, what brand?
| pixl97 wrote:
| Heh, I can't wait until one of these 2-bit TV manufactures
| goes out of business and the update website gets co-opted
| by some hackers that write a new firmware update that asks
| for things like peoples CC to use it.
| CyanBird wrote:
| Given the ass security that these things likely use, you
| might just be able to use man in the middle attacks
| against http and it might just work heh
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| People have TVs?
| bitwize wrote:
| Sceptre dumb TVs are available through Wal-Mart's web site.
| maupin wrote:
| The amount of research I had to do to buy my mother a new
| television that would work for regular antennae television and
| not require internet access was just ridiculous.
| CapmCrackaWaka wrote:
| What did you settle on?
| idatum wrote:
| At least it's encouraging we're seeing more and more articles and
| awareness of these data collection practices. I'm hopeful we'll
| reach enough outrage (always seems to need to come to that).
|
| The last "smart" tv I purchased (Costco) is working fine without
| an internet connection. Pihole blocks much of the telemetry being
| sent from the attached XBox. XBox has a Hauppauge USB tuner with
| OTA antenna for when I want to catch a local sports broadcast,
| etc.
| sombragris wrote:
| "The Cost of _Less Expensive_ TVs ", perhaps?
|
| I paid good money for mine and still tries to spy on me. Cheap
| they are not.
| pixl97 wrote:
| The premium manufactures realized they would make far more
| money by selling spyware then an actual premium product. "Pay"
| for Windows and it still spys on you these days.
| nerdawson wrote:
| LG enabled tracking without my consent.
|
| I have an LG C8 OLED. I wanted the convenience of a smart TV
| without being tracked so I carefully went through every setting
| and turned it all off. I followed an article detailing what all
| the tracking settings were, how to disable them, etc.
|
| I deliberately disabled all tracking options years ago.
|
| Imagine my surprise a couple of weeks back when I looked in the
| settings. All of it was magically enabled again. Personalised
| ads, screen recognition, you name it, all switched on. How long
| for is anyones guess.
|
| My trust for smart TVs is at an all time low.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| It probably gets reset when it loses wall power. My TV resets
| some of the settings every time, I have to go back and edit it
| - it's very annoying. Sony Bravia.
| nerdawson wrote:
| Yeah, that'd be my guess too. Either that or an update.
|
| Regardless it's convenient that it forgets my tracking
| preferences, defaults to the most permissive options
| possible, and doesn't forget all my other settings.
| bonzini wrote:
| That would be very much illegal under the GDPR.
| nerdawson wrote:
| I wonder how widespread the phenomenon is. I'm based in
| the UK and those are my thoughts exactly.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| Of only the humanity could invent something what could store
| the settings even in absrnse of power. Maybe it could be
| called like a non-volatile random acess memory, or something
| like that.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| Thats why I use a cheap external box. Doestnt matter whether
| its firetv, appletv, chromecasr or anything. Unplug the power
| when u r done watching. Its so easy this way.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I have mine on an RPT that turns it off if the TV is powered
| off.
| acomjean wrote:
| They have "smart" power strips that have this
| functionality, they watch a "TV outlet" and when that stops
| drawing significant power (Tv turned off) they shut off the
| other outlets (I think it was designed for dvd players and
| surround sound amps/ cable boxes).
|
| though doing this with a raspberry pi is more fun.
|
| https://www.energycircle.com/smart-power-strips
| clairity wrote:
| i've had the belkin version of this for some years, the
| Conserve Smart AV (unfortunately discontinued):
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0085Q722A . i have my tv as
| the master switch and my apple tv on an always on outlet
| so that it's the only other device that can wake my tv
| via CEC (it's my home hub as well, so need to keep it
| powered continuously). (edit:) oops, just remembered my
| A/V receiver is also plugged into an always-on outlet and
| can turn on the tv via CEC as well.
|
| i also have a few of the Conserve Switch models, which
| have a wireless radio switch but is otherwise not
| "smart": https://www.belkin.com/conserve-
| switch/P-F7C01008.html
|
| both have been handy and going strong. i'm still puzzled
| why belkin basically discontinued the conserve line of
| products. seemed like the logical launch off point for
| their smart home stuff (now under the wemo brand name).
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| That's what mine does.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| HDMI CEC can do this automatically, no special power
| strip required-- _if_ you 're lucky and none of your
| devices implement it poorly.
|
| [EDIT] Oh nevermind, this is about making sure nothing
| can wake up and phone home when not explicitly powered
| on.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| I actually spend more time on the tasks othan than tv
| (work, pc related, gaming). Each category is handled by a
| separate external box.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| What's the current recommendation for a minimum viable HTPC?
| RPI?
| eightysixfour wrote:
| If you give the TV internet access it will still identify the
| content and share it with advertisers, even if you are using
| an external box. If you don't give it access, some have been
| observed connecting to open networks nearby.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| I unplugged the box after the usage. Why would I ever
| connect the tv to the internet? It's implied.
| autoexec wrote:
| You just have to be aware of what your external boxes are
| collecting. Roku for example takes multiple 4k screenshots
| every second and uploads them to their servers to analyze so
| that they can see and track what you're watching and when.
|
| I'd assume firetv, appletv, even the PS5 I use to watch
| streaming services on my TV is doing basically the same
| thing.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| That's unavoidable. Unfortunately to watch 4k hdr videos
| you have to use some tv boxes. You can't do it on pc. By
| physically limiting the tv box usage, they only have the
| data just about the video that I am watching with. I guess
| that's fine
| spike021 wrote:
| I've had an LG C2 OLED for almost a month. Turned off all those
| settings. So far so good, but will be keeping an eye out.
|
| Before this TV I just used a first gen 4k Apple TV, but I
| noticed it was a bit stuttery and didn't support as many
| formats so I've been using the native TV apps. Maybe I rushed
| too quickly on that.
| autoexec wrote:
| This isn't limited to smart TVs. Every internet enabled device
| can do the same thing. When you allow someone other than
| yourself to remotely access and modify the software running on
| your devices they stop being "your" devices and companies will
| happily disregard your stated preferences and make whatever
| changes are beneficial for them.
|
| The only way to have any control at all over your devices is to
| make sure that nobody else is able to modify them without your
| consent. Keeping our devices offline isn't always possible. Our
| computers and phones typically depend on internet access to
| stay useful, but you can at least make sure your TV is never
| connected to the internet.
| jupp0r wrote:
| Why do you have it connected to the internet? Will it not work
| without?
| nerdawson wrote:
| Convenience.
|
| I want to use the built in apps for Netflix, YouTube, etc.
|
| LG gave me the option of being tracked. I declined. That's
| the only thing that should matter.
| nightski wrote:
| I mean, using services such as those you are being tracked
| extensively anyways, it's pretty much unavoidable.
|
| I just never accepted the terms on my LG and use a Roku
| instead, although I'm not sure it is much better. But the
| interface is a lot cleaner.
| oarsinsync wrote:
| > I mean, using services such as those you are being
| tracked extensively anyways, it's pretty much
| unavoidable.
|
| Consenting (possibly under duress) to one thing is not
| the same as consenting to all things.
|
| You might consent to doing various intimate things with a
| significant other. That doesn't make you a free for all
| buffet for everyone else.
| criddell wrote:
| Go into your Roku privacy settings and you can disable
| some of their tracking.
|
| For example, Roku sends back two screenshots per second
| of what you are watching.
|
| https://advertising.roku.com/resources/blog/insights-
| analysi...
| gnicholas wrote:
| How can you tell in advance if a TV needs to be connected to the
| internet to work? We just plug computers/iPhones to ours via
| HDMI, and we never connect the TV directly to the internet.
|
| The last thing we'd want is to get a TV home, get it unwrapped
| and plugged in, and then have to take it back because it won't
| turn on without an internet connection. And I wouldn't trust a
| Best Buy salesperson to be knowledgeable/honest about this.
|
| I realize there are some signage brands that never require this,
| but often there are great deals on Samsung/Vizio/etc. units at
| Best Buy/Costco, and I'd rather get one of those if I can use it
| in offline mode.
| pixl97 wrote:
| If you could get ahold of the remote at BestBuy, just reset the
| TV to factory and see what it does at startup.
|
| With that said, they typically don't have them out for you to
| do that.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Great idea, thanks! I happen to have Samsung and Vizio
| remotes at home, and might bring them with me for some due
| diligence...
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