[HN Gopher] Summary: "No: The Only Negotiating System You Need f...
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Summary: "No: The Only Negotiating System You Need for Work and
Home" - Jim Camp
Author : chegra
Score : 72 points
Date : 2022-12-30 16:30 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.chestergrant.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.chestergrant.com)
| spritefs wrote:
| > As a negotiator aspiring to excellence, you must, at all costs,
| avoid showing need. In order to avoid showing need, you must
| never feel it. I cannot say this enough: You do not need this
| deal.
|
| Isn't this a contradiction? Because why would someone be
| negotiating in the first place if they weren't needy in some sort
| of way? On top of this though, they care about the negotiation so
| much that they read this annoyingly long guide and obsess over
| "not showing need"
|
| Isn't suffering through this guide itself a sign of neediness?
| [deleted]
| maxbond wrote:
| I read that as, "to gaslight others, you first must gaslight
| yourself."
| kstenerud wrote:
| The point here is to move from "need" to "want".
|
| If you "want" something, you're willing to pay a fair price for
| it (maybe), but you're also perfectly willing to walk away if
| the negotiations don't go to your liking. If the deal falls
| through, it's a disappointment perhaps, but no biggie.
|
| If you "need" something, it's suddenly very hard to back away
| emotionally, and the other side will pick up on this and
| exploit it.
| asplake wrote:
| "I can't do that" - after Chris Voss, Never split the difference
| cesaref wrote:
| Negotiations is a complex subject, and certainly one that us
| engineer types normally don't get directly involved with. I had
| some exposure to this world early in my career, as an engineer
| for a small software house, getting involved in pre-sales
| support. My job was to get called into meeting and to say 'no'.
|
| How this worked was that at a particular point in the sales
| cycle, the client would invariably ask a deep technical question
| (it was usually a tech from their side who had been brought along
| to the meeting for this very purpose). Our sales team would call
| on me, i'd turn up, hear the question, and my job was to say 'no'
| we couldn't solve that. I'd mention that we could do something
| close to what they had asked for, and maybe it was worth taking
| this discussion outside of the meeting. I'd swap cards with their
| tech, and we'd continue the discussion over the coming days.
|
| This proved to be a very important part of the negotiations. They
| needed us to say no, our engineers and their engineers would
| start talking about implementation and how things would work
| together (where the boundaries were between systems). Their techs
| would give positive feedback to their management, and the deal
| would close.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Not sure I fully get it, but in this case you said "maybe"?
| Doing a workaround or even continuing to gather requirements is
| not really a "no", in my book.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > 48. "Sure, Frank, we're on board. We want to place the biggest
| order ever with Acme--50, 000 widgets."
|
| > 49. Then, one or two calls later, "I didn't even bring it up,
| Frank. It seemed unnecessary. I'm assuming about a twenty percent
| discount at that volume. Is that what you have in mind?" Never
| fall for the quick "yes." Assume nothing. Avoid the emotional
| roller coaster. Don't get needy. Don't "chase the results" that
| seem to be shimmering so invitingly right in front of your eyes.
|
| This is such an annoying negotiating tactic, though more common
| than asking for a large volume discount is springing things like
| net-90 (or longer) payment terms.
| leephillips wrote:
| He's right about people being uncomfortable with "no". I've
| noticed that people don't expect it, and are nonplussed when I
| simply tell them, "no". I've also noticed that people who avoid
| saying "no" tend, because of that, to promise what they can't
| deliver. Ultimately, my "no" is more honest and respectful then
| their "yes".
| mesozoic wrote:
| Anyone able to compare this to "Getting to Yes"?
| jmalicki wrote:
| "Getting to Yes" would call this "No" concept BATNA
| snowwrestler wrote:
| Ehh, I feel like needing to "win" every "negotiation" is its own
| kind of emotional neediness.
|
| I feel like most negotiations should be easy because both sides
| are going to gain. (That's why transactions happen in the first
| place.)
|
| Sure you don't want one side to take advantage of the other, but
| there's a usually a range of OK outcomes between those extremes.
| faangiq wrote:
| Low IQ. The only negotiating system is alternatives.
| b5n wrote:
| > 21. Talking is often an overt showing of need. Therefore this
| rule: No talking.
|
| I'd argue that silence is even more powerful than 'no'. Learning
| to wield it properly has served me incredibly well.
| kradroy wrote:
| Using this technique I got a great deal on a car after the
| salesman threw out a number first. I simply sat there looking
| at him and said nothing for maybe 20-30 seconds. He threw out a
| lower number. Then I said "I'll think about it" and walked off
| the lot. He called me back later with an even lower number.
|
| It felt awkward at the time to do it, but I didn't feel awkward
| after saving thousands of dollars.
| thechao wrote:
| Walking off the lot got me into the craziest argument I ever
| had with another human: I went to Maxwell Ford, in Austin,
| (2018) and asked what the cash cost of the base model
| Explorer was. These are practically "no options" vehicles, as
| they're loss leaders. Every few minutes someone would come by
| and try some tactic that didn't involve telling me a cost
| (we'd swapped ph#s at some point). At the 30 minute mark, I
| just got up and walked away, while the sales person & their
| manager were blabbing at me. They followed me to my car as I
| drove away. Then they just started calling ... and calling.
| Each time I'd say "what's the cost?" I'd count to 30, and if
| they didn't respond I'd hang up. About the 10th time, I asked
| them to stop calling.
|
| The next day the manager calls me & begins loudly complaining
| that I can't just hang up on her staff. I hung up on her. She
| called back screaming at me. I just lowered the volume & let
| it go. After a minute she paused to take a breath, and I said
| "can I ask a question?" She said "yes", then I asked how much
| the car was. She started screaming again; I hung up & blocked
| their number(s).
|
| Anyways: don't go to Maxwell Ford, they're not mentally well.
|
| I ended up getting the Ford at Lief Johnson. I showed up,
| saying I was buying with cash. The salesman, Bob, just stared
| at me for a few minutes and told me a number (29k$), "take it
| or leave it, my commission is only $50". Out the door in 90
| minutes.
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| I spent most of my life in a place where you get the
| posted, manufacturer price (or maybe lower) and there's no
| negotiating.
|
| Buying a car at a dealership in the US is in my top three
| most bizarre experiences while living in the US. I had
| never witnessed humans acting that way to one another
| before, and I'm not sure I've witnessed anything like that
| since.
| ahelwer wrote:
| I wonder about the longest stretch of silence that has passed
| in a negotiation because both parties read the same negotiating
| self-help books and attempted to apply them on one another.
| the_sleaze9 wrote:
| Were they making direct eye contact, menacing faces of stone
| each daring the others to make the first move? Were their
| jaws and brows completely relaxed staring dreamily off into
| the ether? Were they all self-consciously posing in various
| confidence-signalling power-poses, strewn about the
| conference table?
|
| I would love to have been a fly on the wall there.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| They're still there, two desiccated corpses silently eyeing
| each other. At least neither lost the negotiation!
| 1123581321 wrote:
| I've seen a two-party meeting end with a long silence. It
| felt like leaving a funeral service.
| vdqtp3 wrote:
| If you saw it, doesn't that mean it was at least three
| party?
| 1123581321 wrote:
| I was part of the group that got up and left (not my
| ideal outcome, but I wasn't the boss.)
| maxbond wrote:
| All this talk of "not showing need" is kinda disturbing given
| the pitch is that this is for work _and home_. If someone wants
| to be a super hard negotiator in a professional context, I have
| no comment on that, but being super reserved and not
| demonstrating need in the context of _your spouse and kids_ is
| toxic and manipulative. "I don't need you, you must come to
| where I am, and where I am is the status quo. We're all
| rational adults here." is not a way to speak to people you have
| an explicitly emotional connection to (where your relationship
| involves what I like to call arationality, which is to say,
| irrationality without the pejorative connotation; not employing
| rationality in a context where rationality is inappropriate).
| "We're all predators who take advantage of the needy" is a poor
| outlook on life in general, but to treat people in your
| personal life that way is. Very concerning.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| Honestly, the biggest hack to negotiations I've ever found isn't
| "no" or "silence" or other such nonsense. It's: "Fair".
|
| When I start a negotiation, I don't think about what's best for
| me, I think about what's fair. I think deeply about this and come
| at it from multiple different angles of where my personal
| jealousy-free line is were I on either side of the deal. And
| then... I just _start there_. I describe it in detail and
| elaborate on any nuance as needed.
|
| And you know what, as a result people sure seem to like doing
| business with me. Negotiations aren't draining experiences, they
| get increasingly frictionless and the business relationships have
| tended to grow into rubber-stamp deals of my proposals. Also in
| my experience, increasing the velocity of transactions is far
| better for growth than trying to maximize selfish individual gain
| on any particular deal.
|
| This also has worked for me in business, my personal life, and
| many other contexts. I've solved some really bitter, decades-
| long, emotionally charged disputes this way.
| cylinder714 wrote:
| Your story reminds me that Rotary International promotes "The
| Four-Way Test," a simple guide to business and personal ethics.
| (There's even a copy of the test on a bronze plaque set into
| the corner of the Palace Hotel on Market Street in San
| Francisco: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SF_Four_Wa
| y_Corner...) The Four-Way Test of what we
| think, say or do 1. Is it the TRUTH? 2. Is it
| FAIR to all concerned? 3. Will it build GOODWILL and
| BETTER FRIENDSHIPS? 4. Will it be BENEFICIAL to all
| concerned?
| _tom_ wrote:
| The problem with "Fair" is people tend to disagree on what is
| fair.
| sz4kerto wrote:
| When I hear someone using the word 'fair' in a negotiation, I
| immediately think that this person is trying to manipulate me
| because they have run out of better rational arguments and/or
| they're not transparent.
|
| If they said that 'I think would get around X after more job
| search but I'll settle with 0.95X for a quick offer', I'd be
| thankful for the information and consider the deal. If they
| said that 'I want X because that's the amount I'd be free of
| jealousy/resent/etc.', I'd be glad they shared the not
| completely rational but honest emotional reason behind their
| preference and also consider the deal.
|
| Using the 'fair' card means that 'if you don't agree you are
| unfair therefore you're a bad person'.
|
| So I recommend everyone to unpack what 'fair' means to them and
| explain that thing instead of using the word 'fair'.
|
| My strategy is generally quite extreme transparency, especially
| in cases when we're at the beginning of a long-term
| relationship.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| >So I recommend everyone to unpack what 'fair' means to them
| and explain that thing instead of using the word 'fair'
|
| Yes, that's basically how I do it, although I don't have any
| reservations about using the word 'fair'. I don't think this
| is problematic unless you're attempting to unilaterally
| declare what "fair" is without offering up all of your
| assumptions in detail with the explicit declaration that
| they're up for debate. It's more like: "Hey so I've tried
| really hard to define what I think a fair deal would look
| like in this situation and here's the exact methodology,
| angles, and assumptions I came up with to do that. When I
| applied that methodology, here is the number I came up with.
| I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, or if you can think
| of any criticism or omissions in my assumptions or methods,
| or if you have any different methodology you'd like to
| consider, please let me know. Let's chat."
|
| Usually when I go over all the different ways in which I have
| already considered their viewpoint, needs, benefits, and
| drawbacks, that's enough for a yes. Sometimes though, people
| will take issue with one of the assumptions or criteria and
| then we can debate about that, but the whole discussion at
| that point tends to already be framed on defining what fair
| is, rather that what they want, or what gripes they have with
| the opposing party.
| novok wrote:
| Collaborative vs. Adversarial Negotiation essentially.
|
| Putting yourself in the other person's shoes and knowing
| what they want, which is what we do all the time in trying
| to convince another person to do something for us, be it a
| child, friend, or coworker.
| bentobean wrote:
| On a related note: It's also a good idea to walk a mile
| in someone's shoes before you criticize them. That way,
| when you criticize them, you'll be a mile away from them
| - and you'll have their shoes!
| number6 wrote:
| If someone uses the F-Word on me I apologize, ask him to
| explain where my proposition is unfair and ask him for a fair
| deal
| omoikane wrote:
| The "fair" argument sounds like
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium
|
| While the "no" argument sounds like
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat...
| bentobean wrote:
| I'll try this tactic the next time my wife asks me to do the
| dishes. Will report back.
| Tomte wrote:
| I've read his book "Start with No" years ago, and as far as I
| remember he never really discusses how and when to switch to
| "Yes".
|
| So if you see negotiations like a sport or game, sure, go for it.
| But I don't see how you would ever achieve something.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| ,,No" is an invite to ,,why". If no ,,why" follows, it wasn't
| important.
| Octokiddie wrote:
| The format of this summary doesn't do the book justice. The book
| has a big idea (seek "No", don't try to avoid it), but the format
| hides that pretty well. There's a lot to unpack before that idea
| makes any sense, but this ordered list doesn't do the job.
|
| Also, the pronouns "I" and "my" imply that the summary was
| written by the author (Jim Camp), which it was not.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > Also, the pronouns "I" and "my" imply that the summary was
| written by the author (Jim Camp), which it was not.
|
| I don't know this book, but did not assume it; this read like
| notes I might take from a book, which I will tend to write in
| the voice of the author so that the pronouns don't reverse if I
| take a direct quote.
| kemitchell wrote:
| I negotiate professionally. I'm still tempted into one or two
| books a year on the subject. But the only one I'm ever tempted to
| recommend is Jim Freund's _Smart Negotiating_. Very modest in its
| claims.
|
| Negotiation is a lot like public speaking. The first, most
| important thing is getting past the idea that it's something
| you're supposed to be afraid of, actually doing a deal, and
| realizing you got away with it. Not "crushing" the other side.
| Not scoring a "win". Just working through the process and ending
| up better off for it.
|
| Once you're confident enough to practice, it probably won't be
| hard to find opporunities. Most other people still avoid it,
| after all. From there you can learn.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Advice from a cold-calling salesman? Yes there is a use for
| employing strategies in the dog eat dog of raw sales, but apply
| it to the rest of your life?
|
| This is like getting childraising advice from a mafia boss,
| marital advice from a special forces assassination squad member,
| etc.
|
| Sure, since they operate at the extremes, they have some
| perspective, but invariably their situation doesn't apply to
| yours, who live in the "normal" world of "normal" interaction.
|
| So if your job involves collaboration, then guess what, this is a
| shitty shitty approach. If your job involves knife fight
| budgetary battles and internecine middle management machiavelli
| warfare, well, yeah.
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