[HN Gopher] Investigation on the effect of oral breathing on cog...
___________________________________________________________________
Investigation on the effect of oral breathing on cognitive activity
(2021)
Author : mirzap
Score : 176 points
Date : 2022-12-30 07:57 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| vmh1928 wrote:
| I've found that keeping my nose hair trimmed makes a big
| difference in nasal breathing air-flow and inhalation ease. And
| by trimmed I mean using a battery powered trimmer with the
| circular cutting head with slots and getting as far back as I can
| reach with that.
| blastro wrote:
| alright you've sold me on testing this idea out
| blastro wrote:
| nose breathing is a must in tai chi
| permo-w wrote:
| I remember learning this when I was a child. what's new about
| this?
| greyface- wrote:
| Maybe the periodic olfactory stimulus is useful to the brain in
| non-olfactory ways? The study says:
|
| > previous studies have observed [...] there was a decline in
| working memory performance for [...] olfactory memory task caused
| by oral breathing in healthy adults
|
| referring to "Respiration Modulates Olfactory Memory
| Consolidation in Humans"
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6596216/
|
| Anecdotally, I find that listening to repetitive music can be
| surprisingly helpful when programming. I can imagine repetitive
| stimuli of other forms having a similar effect.
| GravitasFailure wrote:
| Considering how tightly memory and smell are connected, plus
| the effects gastrointestinal health has on cognition...your
| suggestion isn't even remotely the weirdest thing that could be
| true about the human body and brain.
| refurb wrote:
| Generally when scientists see some phenomena they tend to view it
| through the lens of "what is a plausible mechanism for this
| observation?".
|
| So the question is - what would be a plausible mechanism for oral
| vs nasal breathing having an impact on cognitive function?
| selimnairb wrote:
| Another reason to have my deviated septum repaired.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| Just had mine fixed. On week 5 and still healing... recovery
| has not been fun but there has been an improvement.
| vkadfa3 wrote:
| As some people have already mentioned, this study needs more
| support.
|
| Just think about this, if you go to gym, do some sport, crossfit,
| whatever, you'd know it is certainly impossible for a human being
| anywhere on the planet, to even run 200 mts. without oral
| breathing at some point. If you keep doing physical activity your
| body eventually would have gone through years of orals breathing
| just by doing regular physical activity.
|
| You actually need to breath by the mouth to increase the air
| pumped to the lungs, without that you rapidly exhaust the nose
| capability and you can't perform beyond marginal movement, i.e.
| you can fastly walk, but you won't run for long just by breathing
| by your nose.
|
| So it looks a lot like from the point of view of evolution, our
| bodies are precisely made to breath by the mouth for short
| periods, which eventually account for long periods, and hours,
| months or years in the long run.
|
| So it looks a bit like oral breathing is an expected normal
| function of the body.
|
| ok, it is not that is a perfect function, or that it will keep
| you healthy at a 100% of the attempts, but is - this is my take -
| probably that breathing by the mouth is one more body function, a
| standard one, evolved to be regularly used, with some trade-off,
| cost / benefits involved.
|
| It looks like we are beginning to underping those tradeoffs, but
| it is actually almost impossible to live normally without using
| those functions.
|
| An example could be using teeth, which leads to quite a lot of
| bad issues in the mouth and probably affect lungs, the hearth,
| and a lot more. But you can't just stop eating and oral hygiene
| goes so far, it won't fully prevent issues, eventually something
| is going to fail there.
| anon84873628 wrote:
| According to the book "Breath" by James Nestor, elite athletes
| were able to improve their performance by nasal breathing at
| all times. Apparently this innovation made a big impact at one
| of the Olympics, and has been part of training regimens ever
| since.
|
| Oral breathing during exercise is a crutch for the body.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| A funnier title would be "NIH confirms mouth breathers really are
| stupid". :)
| zakember wrote:
| I was about to say, this reaffirms the word 'mouthbreather'
| bitwize wrote:
| Repeat after me: Your NOSE is for breathing, your MOUTH is for
| eating.
| davidgay wrote:
| Try having a bad asthma attack, and then get back to us :(
| adaml_623 wrote:
| I'm really intrigued about who told you this or how you (or
| they) determined this knowledge? In your society while growing
| up where people aware of how others were breathing and
| instructed them?
|
| Is this knowledge more like right handedness vs left
| handedness, scrunch vs fold, sit or squat, not sleeping with
| fans or more like not drinking white wine with red meat?
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| That's some solid advice right there.
|
| Also, no jamming jam into the ear, ya hear?
|
| Now, apart from the fun rendition ("mouth breathers are dumb"),
| this gives an interesting explanation on why I feel dumb when
| I'm congested.
| bitwize wrote:
| And when breathing through your nose, remember not to sniff
| petrol from a can:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1yeBmSFkC4
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| You're just trying to take all the fun away.
|
| Anyway, is glue still ok?
| iamacyborg wrote:
| Except for when you're performing any hard aerobic exercise, at
| which point you have to breathe through your mouth.
| jonsen wrote:
| We are not designed for hard aerobic exercise.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| And yet we're remarkably good at it
| gherkinnn wrote:
| What makes you believe that a species that evolved from
| persistence hunters is "not designed" for hard aerobic
| exercise?
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| Isn't the idea behind persistence hunting that it's long-
| term, low effort aerobic exercise? That is, our ancestors
| were good at maintaining low-speed pursuit for long
| distances, but not so great at sprinting after prey.
| bsza wrote:
| ...and when you're intubated with an NG tube.
| balaji1 wrote:
| Someone more athletic or fitter than you wouldn't mouth
| breath at the level of activity you mouth breath at. Their
| capacity is higher.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| Hard aerobic exercise is relative, clearly.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| So? Hard aerobic exercise is hard. A fitter person will
| just be faster.
| balaji1 wrote:
| well I just meant it could be an area for improvement. It
| is possible to work your way to being more capable with
| just nasal breathing. Or sometimes you just have to be
| conscious you are mouth breathing and you'll be able to
| revert to nasal breathing. I didn't say you should never
| mouth breathe or somehow you are inferior to a super
| athlete.
| sn41 wrote:
| Great advice. I'll just pass it on to my autoimmune disorder to
| unclog my sinuses. /s
| agumonkey wrote:
| what disorder is this ? overproduction of mucus ? or
| inflammed tissue blocking air flow ?
| sn41 wrote:
| The first. If you have some advice on this, I'll be
| extremely glad to follow up on it!
| agumonkey wrote:
| I wish, I think I developed a form of this. For a year or
| so I've been having huge episodes of nasal problems.
| - large amount of mucus (I stopped counting tissue after
| the 1000 mark [0]) - strange consistency of mucus
| (thicker, and glue like) - very narrowed nasal
| cavity
|
| I've been allergic half my life, so nose issues are not
| new, but not of that nature and that scale. And your
| comment reminded me of this.. I wonder if I took
| something that altered my body immune response (or maybe
| my brain just lost it)
|
| [0] it got to a point where I was physically exhausted
| from sneezing, abdominal cramps and nausea.. "surprising"
| to say the least
| sschueller wrote:
| But where do we speak out of?
| tgv wrote:
| > The [fMRI imaging] results showed more brain activation and
| connection during nasal breathing than during oral breathing.
|
| That doesn't prove anything. Apart from the problems in imaging
| connections, there's no reason to assume "more brain activation"
| means better cognitive functioning. Perhaps less is better, since
| a faster processing leads to a smaller BOLD response. There are
| more useful statistics in the article: the error rate and the
| response time. It looks as if "oral" was a bit faster, and had
| more errors. That might be enough to explain any imaging
| difference.
|
| Does it mean impaired cognitive function? Well, that would depend
| on how strong your a prioris are. Is there any reason to assume
| it does? If not, then this most likely is a chance result.
| Perhaps oral breathing slightly impaired vision in the scanner or
| interferes with motor skills. Or perhaps it's the plug in the
| subjects' noses. This study needs a lot of additional support.
| echelon wrote:
| I know the paper is lacking in evidence, but it proposes such
| an interesting phenomena. It's worth exploring more.
|
| It made my mind jump to perhaps a second, potentially worse
| outcome of mouth breathing - seeding the lung mucosa with oral
| flora. That seems like it could enhance the spread and
| inflammation. And cause deleterious downstream impacts such as
| slightly increased risk of cancer, pulmonary diseases, etc.
| tgv wrote:
| Note that the experimental blocks were short, in the order of
| a few minutes, and was mixed between both nasal and oral
| breathing. Now imagine that whatever cause can spread that
| rapidly to the brain and have a noticeable effect there. Then
| orally breathing a full day (which is quite common when you
| have a cold) would lead to total cognitive degradation. You'd
| need a very peculiar mechanism to explain why that wouldn't
| happen.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| There's a massive hole in the methodology. If I tell you
| "do this complex mental task, oh by the way be conscious of
| your breathing the whole time," that is going to have
| impact on your capacity to focus on the task.
| ngoilapites wrote:
| Really it can get that bad?
| raphman wrote:
| Pat Volkerding, Slackware maintainer, suffered from
| Actinomycosis in 2004 - quite a chilling read [0].
| > To help me avoid more tooth decay my dad bought me one of
| those fancy > rechargable electric toothbrushes that
| really powers away the plaque. > It also creates a
| fine aerosol mist of plaque, and I started to wonder
| > if 4 years of using this brush had caused me to breathe
| in some of this > plaque mist and moved an infection
| into my lungs.
|
| [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20050206180243/http://www.s
| lackw...
| moneywoes wrote:
| Wait toothbrushes are a concern?
| ranger47 wrote:
| Everything is a concern. It's not often that humanity
| gets it right the first time, so the trick is to be ready
| to make changes when new verifiable data comes to light.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| Thank you for saying that. I personally always found it
| confusing that people at some point simply say 'I am done
| learning anything new' as if their current model of the
| world is already perfect. I might understand there is a
| physical memory limit, but I sincerely doubt it is even
| scratched for most people.
|
| I understand the evolutionary underpinnings for it (
| 'what I did got me this far did it not?' ), but it is
| still not a great excuse for a conscious being.
| zsz wrote:
| It's not as if it's a hard limit, and you become
| incapable of absorbing additional facts beyond a certain
| point. If anything, the human mind seems best adapted to
| ongoing learning, as it seems to store (and discard)
| information in terms of relational strength.
| naasking wrote:
| Poor oral hygiene is linked to heart disease too
| tiahura wrote:
| And dementia
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I knew a guy once who had very serious heart trouble
| after a teeth-cleaning. This is not even an unknown
| phenomenon -- cleaning your teeth does make small wounds
| in your gums, and oral bacteria can get into your
| bloodstream.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Dental procedures and even tooth brushing increase blood
| bacteria levels. In addition to aerosolizing, they also
| reach circulation through gingival lesions caused by the
| procedure. Once in the blood, they can colonize the heart
| and cause endocarditis.
|
| https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.10
| 7.7...
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12212870/
| [deleted]
| survirtual wrote:
| [flagged]
| ClassyJacket wrote:
| I would gladly use my nostrils if they would ever work. All
| the beclometasone in the world doesn't open the stubborn
| bastards consistently.
| theCrowing wrote:
| I got mine expanded via laser surgery was a life changer.
| GoRudy wrote:
| What is this procedure called? How does one know if they
| are a good candidate?
| theCrowing wrote:
| Nasal cavity ventilation expansion and you are probably a
| good candidate if you have obstructions in the upper
| airway.
| throwaway049 wrote:
| I'd settle for a higher quality of debate on hn. I can get
| low effort sneering just about anywhere else.
| survirtual wrote:
| This line of discussion lead to me learning that mitigating
| a deviated septum can be life changing, and someone else
| finding out about a laser nasal expansion surgery, both
| which reduces the number of mouth brea...sorry, oral
| aspirators on this planet. This has a direct impact on
| cognitive ability, thus we can say that we have directly
| contributed towards increasing Earth consciousness today.
|
| I find that to be of the highest quality, and it all
| started with some sneering.
| soneca wrote:
| Your ancestors, not mine. My culture doesn't have that term.
|
| Also, people who have ,e.g. Down Syndrome, whohave both mouth
| breathing and lower cognitive performance, could explain the
| existent of the expression without implying that people who
| do not have Down Syndrome, but breath with their mouths, also
| have lower cognitive performance.
|
| So I guess you just don't know enough about your ancestors
| thought process to derive the pretense wisdom from the
| saying.
|
| Also, I always had difficulty breathing through my nose, so
| it personally bothers me seeing this association. I am happy
| enough with my cognitive performance, it's just a matter of
| stigma.
| retrac wrote:
| > Also, I always had difficulty breathing through my nose,
| so it personally bothers me seeing this association.
|
| I do too. I always assumed it was a defect and, from what
| I've read, it appears to be a defect that's likely to
| affect my cognitive and physical health in negative ways.
| The association between obstructed nasal breathing and bad
| sleep is pretty well-established, and the effects of bad
| sleep on everything from the brain to the heart are also
| pretty well-established.
|
| I'm sorry that our open mouths are slowly dehydrating our
| brains, but being an ostrich about it won't help.
| soneca wrote:
| I have a pretty good sleep since forever.
| survirtual wrote:
| I've always had difficulty breathing through my nose ever
| since I got head bashed straight in the nostrils, but even
| with my increased mouth breathing, the cognitive decline
| hasn't been able to touch my ability to make light of
| myself.
| eemmiillyy wrote:
| I had a deviated septum from from ages 5 - 28 and getting
| it corrected was the best decision I ever made. Highly
| recommend. Quality of life goes way up and it's a very
| quick procedure.
| survirtual wrote:
| I almost did that procedure and now I wish I had. Thanks
| for the info, will need to seriously pursue this.
| fumeux_fume wrote:
| Nice, mustn't let a little humor go unscolded.
| soneca wrote:
| I honestly missed the humor in that message, sorry.
| alar44 wrote:
| Yup, definitely a mouth breather.
| bluescrn wrote:
| > Also, I always had difficulty breathing through my nose,
| so it personally bothers me seeing this association.
|
| This. As somebody with a deviated septum (and also asthma),
| the 'mouth breather' insult is pretty obnoxious. I've never
| been able to breathe particularly well though my nose.
|
| (Yeah, surgery could probably fix/improve it it, but I've
| lived with it decades at this point, and I've got more
| important health issues to worry about)
| [deleted]
| trilbyglens wrote:
| Lends some credence to the insult "mouth breather" doesn't it.
| balaji1 wrote:
| Breath by James Nestor. Great book.
| Glench wrote:
| Yeah, to expand on the parent comment James Nestor talked
| extensively about mouth breathing vs nasal breathing in his
| book. He even volunteered to plug up his nose for a study on
| the affects of mouth breathing. TLDR: he felt awful when only
| breathing through his mouth for a few weeks and his performance
| on various tasks was objectively worse.
|
| It was that book that made me get a deviated septum / nasal
| blockage surgery which helped a lot.
| hackernewds wrote:
| curious to hear what the outcomes were for you on deviated
| septum? I got a CPAP machine which helps a lot with night
| sleep but then realize that even during the day I'm congested
| so I'm not optimally breathing.
|
| the other suggestion from the ENT doctor was that I removed
| both my tonsils and get my uvula chopped off. so I'm deciding
| between the septum operation and/or tonsil operation
| Glench wrote:
| After the deviated septum and turbinate (?) reduction
| surgery my breath improved noticeably, my sleep got better,
| my headaches were significantly reduced, and anecdotally I
| felt a lot less anxious. The ENT doctor told me "things
| were pretty deranged back there" after the surgery so it
| makes sense this would help.
|
| That said, I still do the neti pot every day since I
| wouldn't say my breathing is "completely" clear.
| LanceH wrote:
| Getting my nose fixed after 25 years made me wish I had it
| fixed 24.5 years before. There is no question about it for
| me that it is one of the best things I've ever done. All
| the sinus and ear infections I got because my nose couldn't
| drain are behind me now.
|
| Also had my turbinates reduced at the same time.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| What was your experience with the surgery? I've got a
| deviated septum and frequently struggle to breathe through my
| nose even through very light exercise.
| Glench wrote:
| After the deviated septum and turbinate (?) reduction my
| breath improved noticeably, my sleep got better, my
| headaches were significantly reduced, and anecdotally I
| felt a lot less anxious. The ENT doctor told me "things
| were pretty deranged back there" after the surgery so it
| makes sense this would help.
|
| That said, I still do the neti pot every day since I
| wouldn't say my breathing is "completely" clear.
| voidee wrote:
| I think it really depends on the severity of the deviation
| and blockage. Before I I had the surgery, the difference
| between nostrils was significant. Left side was normal and
| the right was like breathing through a very small diameter
| straw. Post surgery, I sleep much better and rarely snore.
| I feel more comfortable when running or biking long
| distances while only breathing through my nose. Do yourself
| a favor and get an evaluation if you have a blockage or
| deviated septum!
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| One of my friends had this issue for years and he said that
| it did wonders for his sleep quality and general clarity of
| mind. The recovery period was apparently terrible -two
| weeks of not being able to breathe through your nose at all
| while experiencing significant sinus pressure/headaches-
| but it must be worth it because he said he would do it
| again.
| balaji1 wrote:
| Thanks for expanding. I am a big fan of the book. Some of
| Nestor's podcast appearances after the book are also great -
| similar content as the book in podcast format, some hosted by
| docs and other experts.
| timthecomposer wrote:
| I had my inferior turbinates reduced a week ago. Already I am
| breathing a lot better, and I can feel I'm not fully healed
| yet (gets better every day). Should have had it done years
| ago. Something (not sure what) caused the turbinates to
| become larger some time ago, giving me breathing trouble.
| It's incredibly liberating to be able to nasally breathe
| freely again. I might even go so far as to say (utterly
| unscientifically) that I feel that I'm thinking more clearly
| now too!
| anon84873628 wrote:
| Doesn't the book specifically worn about the dangers and
| possible horrible outcomes of this procedure? I'm glad it
| worked for you and you found a trustworthy doctor to do it
| right.
| d4rkp4ttern wrote:
| Fantastic book. Immediately applicable insights. The single
| thing that improved my running distance is a few rules I made
| after reading this:
|
| - never open your mouth while running,
|
| - breathe in for 2 steps, out for longer, like 5 or 7 steps.
| Odd out steps ensure the cycle starts with foot falls from
| alternate feet, ensuring you don't over-strain one side.
|
| - don't run so fast that you have to open your mouth
| balaji1 wrote:
| I also feel the same way about the book, very easy to
| implement some of the suggestions in the book.
|
| And your comment is also easily applicable, haha. I
| implemented the same strategy while running after the book.
| One of my favorite books.
| [deleted]
| 323 wrote:
| The nose also does some dust/pathogens filtering.
| Aardwolf wrote:
| I'm not a native English speaker, but pretty good at it, but the
| word "induce" here gets me. Does "induce impaired cognitive
| function" mean something good, or something bad, for cognitive
| function?
| rwmj wrote:
| Even as an English speaker, the abstract is hard to follow.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| Bad. Induce means "to lead to", from the Latin. Think ducts and
| dukes.
| mort96 wrote:
| "Induce" basically means "cause", so it's bad.
| shoo wrote:
| ... because it causes impaired function. if it caused
| enhanced function, maybe that'd be helpful.
| seper8 wrote:
| Gonna sound like a kook here but mouth taping improved my sleep.
| hackernewds wrote:
| Do chin straps work just as well? If you were getting enough
| air through your nose, why would your body switch mouth
| breathing when you're sleeping?
| seper8 wrote:
| Used to have a chronically stuffy nose at night, maybe due to
| allergies. Probably thats when the bad habit started.
|
| I guess a chin strap would work aswell.
| Insanity wrote:
| Mouth taping? How and why did you start doing this? :o
| Gigachad wrote:
| I met a guy who did this to prevent snoring.
| anon84873628 wrote:
| Unfortunately it only works for certain types of snoring.
| If it doesn't work for your, consult an ENT doctor.
| seper8 wrote:
| My girlfriend had jaw issues and was recommended this after a
| surgery by her doctor. I decided to give it a try aswell as I
| had heard about the potential benefits. Used to wake up with
| a terrible dryness and taste in my mouth. Doesnt happen
| anymore now. Strangely enough my dreams got more vivid. Also,
| eventually it became like such a ritual that I would feel
| like something was missing if I didn't tape up. It started to
| feel snug, like a weighted blanket.
| trifurcate wrote:
| I tape my mouth because I hated waking up with a dry mouth
| that tasted horrible. I've also read that this contributes to
| tooth decay.
|
| It's just a small piece of tape, as big as half a fingernail.
| It's placed on my lips right in the middle, and it works more
| by reminding my brain to keep my mouth closed and less by
| actually mechanically holding my mouth shut. If my nose is
| stuffed, I can just open a slight gap between my lips to
| breathe through. Otherwise, though, when my mouth is that
| close I will automatically close my lips and breathe through
| my nose through the night, which anecdotally improves my
| sleep quality and reduces morning breath.
| amelius wrote:
| Did you try the chin-strap method also?
|
| https://www.wikihow.com/Sleep-with-Your-Mouth-Closed
| vmh1928 wrote:
| Thanks for the link. If I sleep on my back my jaw
| slackens and moves back toward my throat and blocks the
| throat or at least constricts and I snore. I tried a
| device like a mouth guard that captures the lower teeth
| but the pressure on my front teeth of holding my jaw up
| hurt. If I sleep on either side then my jaw doesn't fall
| back and all is good.
| TheCleric wrote:
| I didn't get a chance to read the full paper, so this may be
| covered, but do they account that the causality may be reversed?
|
| Meaning that instead of nasal breathing causing more brain
| activity, instead the subjects had to concentrate more on
| consciously breathing through their nose and the activity is due
| to that? I.e., the brain activity is actually "causing" the nasal
| breathing?
| adaml_623 wrote:
| General question for anyone with an opinion. Is it common
| knowledge in your society/culture/family that "mouth breathing"
| is a bad thing?
|
| I'm really fascinated by this because some of the comments I've
| been reading here are very opinionated but I don't know what they
| are based on.
| Firther wrote:
| There has been a social stigma against breathing through your
| mouth in the UK for as long as I can remember, with it being
| associated with negative qualities like being undisciplined,
| unathletic, dimwitted, along with it being considered an
| impolite thing to do.
|
| I doubt this was part of the curriculum, but in fitness classes
| at school we were told that breathing through your nose with
| your tongue pressed against the roof of your mouth helps
| develop your face/jaw and that breathing through your nose
| moistens the air and helps filter it. We were also told that
| it's not necessary to breath through your mouth when you're out
| of breath as you won't get or don't need more oxygen and that
| you risk hyperventilating this way, instead we were told that
| you should breath using your diaphragm to help mix the air in
| the lungs and that you should hold the breath for about as long
| as you inhale/exhale if you can help it. This sort of breathing
| exercise seems pretty common in any fitness/exercise related
| guide I've seen too.
|
| As far as other countries/cultures go, any country that has a
| strong yoga/meditative culture likely considers breathing
| through your mouth to be bad too, but this is just speculation
| on my part. Pranayama is thousands of years old for instance
| and is primarily concerned with controlling and reducing your
| breathing, which is hard to do if you're not breathing through
| the nose.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >General question for anyone with an opinion. Is it common
| knowledge in your society/culture/family that "mouth breathing"
| is a bad thing?
|
| Yes and no. Mouth breathing in and of itself isn't, socially, a
| negative.
|
| However, in English[0][1][2], a "mouth breather" is _also_ a
| euphemism for someone of below average quality and
| intelligence.
|
| Not sure how that came to be, but that's the answer to your
| question.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouth_breathing
|
| [1] https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/mouth-breathers
|
| [2] https://www.definitions.net/definition/mouth%20breather
| soneca wrote:
| Not an idiomatic expression in Brazil. There is some cultural
| behavior of my parents telling me to "close my mouth" as it was
| an inherent bad/impolite/ugly/improper thing.
| lbayes wrote:
| I was raised in the American South.
|
| I always thought "mouth breather" was referring to stupid, but
| tough guys who did so much fighting that their smashed noses
| don't work anymore.
|
| Also, my nose has been broken a few times and I can't ever
| really get enough air through it...
| xuaihua wrote:
| For what it's worth, I've only heard this term in my (American)
| culture for the past 5 or so years.
|
| My first exposure to the term was via internet memes where
| "mouth breathing" was conveyed as existing only with those who
| were mentally impaired. Check out the Urban Dictionary link
| someone else responded to you with in a different comment
| thread for more context.
|
| I don't recall ever hearing anything about "mouth breathing" in
| my society/culture/subculture before exposure to these memes,
| so I wonder if it's a newer thing? If so, silly memes really
| are influencing our culture!
| drukenemo wrote:
| I recommend the book Breath by James Nestor. A well researched
| book, in which he makes the case for nasal breathing.
| adaml_623 wrote:
| That's not an answer to my question at all. I'm asking about
| the comments and attitudes that seem to treat mouth breathing
| as bad and wondering where they come from. I'm (relatively)
| sure that a book published in 2020 isn't the root cause.
| LanceH wrote:
| Historically, it feels more like a class thing. A proper,
| civilized person would keep their mouth closed.
|
| As for the current mouth vs nose and belly vs chest
| breathing, it really feels like a fad/cult. There seem to
| be a constant stream of very small "studies" with
| questionable methodologies with just enough results to
| warrant further investigation.
| Roark66 wrote:
| Definitely yes. Parents tell their kids to "close their mouth"
| etc. Being seen in public with your mouth open is seen as
| impolite/a sign of some mental issues.
| hattori31 wrote:
| It makes sense. Just trying to breathe from the mouth for a while
| makes me feel sick.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| That is not a normal reaction.
| hattori31 wrote:
| Well, the word sick was too much. Not normal? I don't know it
| feels wrong.
| sam_goody wrote:
| Not breathing at all impairs cognitive functions even more
| significantly, even before the system shuts down [eg. divers that
| are running low on oxygen].
|
| Though it is hard to measure what are the effects of panic and
| what stems the shortage of oxygen.
| cidd wrote:
| Swimming makes you stupid eh?
| callamdelaney wrote:
| My left nostril appears to have collapsed at some point, I really
| should prioritise getting it sorted, it reduces the amount of air
| I can breath through my nose significantly, especially if one
| nostril is blocked.
| bira wrote:
| The less 02 you breath in, the more the CO2 build-up and, per
| the Bohr effect, the more efficiently you'll absorb the 02.
| Just don't mouth breath and you'll be fine. Actually, you'll be
| healthier because of it.
| sys32768 wrote:
| Oddly enough, same happened to me many years ago. Only thing
| that helps slightly is Breathe Right strips. My father had the
| same issue so maybe our left nostril DNA got dented.
| 0atman wrote:
| 22 people in the study :eyeroll:
| munch117 wrote:
| You can dismiss a study with 22 participants as unscientific,
| if they could have reasonably done a study with many more
| participants, or if someone else has already done so.
|
| In this case, it's an fMRI study. fMRI access is expensive, and
| analysing results is time consuming. It's reasonable to start
| small. If the smaller study comes up with anything interesting,
| then you can do a larger study later to confirm, and the
| experience you gained in the smaller study will help you design
| the larger one.
| JustLurking2022 wrote:
| You probably should dismiss the results if they publish the
| study of 22 people rather than doing that larger follow-up.
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| Shouldn't all studied publish their results, regardless of
| followup studies? Also, assuming they don't already have
| funding for the larger study, it seems they would need to
| publish in order to garner attention from the study to
| secure the future funding.
| Havoc wrote:
| How much of this is just them breathing deeper as a result of
| more conscious focus on it?
|
| Bit like breaths (in my experience) tend to be deeper and more
| "purposeful" even if the doctor says take a normal breath.
|
| Struggling a bit to convey this right but you get the idea
| hopefully...
| Geee wrote:
| Why would someone breathe through their mouth if there's no nasal
| congestion. I'm pretty sure that you'd have to be cognitively
| impaired to begin with.
| adaml_623 wrote:
| Can I ask where and how you developed your knowledge about the
| relationship between breathing and intelligence? Is this common
| knowledge where you are from? How often are you aware of how
| others are breathing? Is this something discussed in your
| family or friendship groups?
| Geee wrote:
| Someone who breathes through their mouth keeps their mouth
| open, which is easy to observe. Someone might keep their
| mouth open for other reasons, such as being overwhelmed or
| surprised. This might explain why the mentally impaired might
| be observed with their mouth open more often than normal
| people. I'm not sure if there's a connection, but if there
| is, I would assume that mental impairment is the cause rather
| than mouth breathing.
| adaml_623 wrote:
| Come on that's half an answer! Is this something you've
| known for ages? Is it something you remember learning from
| adults when you were growing up? Why do you personally have
| an opinion about this at all?
| Geee wrote:
| No, I haven't heard of this connection until recently.
| I've seen 'mouthbreather' used as a derogatory term
| online, which is probably where I've seen it the first
| time.
|
| Top entry for 'mouthbreather' on Urban Dictionary is from
| 2017: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mou
| thbreathe...
| tfigment wrote:
| Its way older than 5 years old. Wonderfalls (2004) had a
| character refered to the mouth breather in derogatory
| way. I know my brother used that in similar way growing
| up but im sure there are better/older references but
| those are mine.
| caeril wrote:
| Because:
|
| 1. Some people's nasal passages are partially or fully clogged.
|
| 2. Even when fully open, there is not enough airflow through
| the nose to facilitate anything more strenuous than light
| walking.
| fulafel wrote:
| Not very strong:
|
| > Twenty-two healthy participants (mean age, 22.27 +- 1.42 years)
| performed a two-back (2B) working memory fMRI task
|
| And then they looked only at the pictures in the MRI they
| supposed indicated more cognitive function, and ignored task
| performance.
| [deleted]
| notahacker wrote:
| They did look at task performance, it's just the oral breathing
| being marginally quicker and marginally less accurate wasn't
| statistically significant.
|
| If there's no difference in task performance, an alternative
| explanation is that for the nasal breathing test participants
| wasted cognitive cycles on remembering to keep their mouth
| closed (versus oral breathing participants who had their nose
| plugged)...
| riedel wrote:
| Hopefully closing the mouth does not affect the postprocessing
| algorithm of the MRI software (remember tons of fMRI studies
| invalid due to software artifacts [1]). I guess it really far
| to easy to generate such results, but difficult to really
| validate them.
|
| [1] https://www.sciencealert.com/a-bug-in-fmri-software-could-
| in...
| djohnston wrote:
| QQ, when I go running or exercising hard, I always end up mouth
| breathing. Is it harmful in this context?
| tgv wrote:
| It's (also) a matter of capacity. You need to inhale a lot of
| air during exercise. Your nose is just too narrow.
| mattwest wrote:
| No. Almost everyone will need to mouth breath while at max
| effort.
|
| It may be beneficial to deliberately nose-breath as long as
| possible, especially at Zone2.
|
| I try to transition to nose-in, mouth-out as a fallback before
| going mouth-in, mouth-out.
|
| Honestly, I don't even know how big of an effect it has, but
| I've been trying it for the past year to test it out. Been
| training for over a decade so I just enjoy testing new things.
| leoff wrote:
| Anecdotal evidence, but I've noticed how Magnus Carlsen, the
| current best chess player, is often mouth breathing when very
| focused in a game. When I was a kid I often also caught myself
| mouth breathing when focused on a videogame, and I think this is
| a common tendency for people.
|
| I wonder if this really has a negative impact, or rather a
| positive one.
| johanneskanybal wrote:
| Mouth breather here, that's good to hear :) Always feels a bit
| like using a straw to draw air through my nose for me, possibly
| choir practice as a kid impacted it too.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| Without devising a research project with flawed methodology
| that nonetheless gets published, my wild-ass guess would be
| that conscious cognitive function is maximized by allowing
| breathing to be managed by the unconscious mind.
|
| Maybe he opens his mouth because it's the most comfortable
| thing to do in the moment.
| [deleted]
| gcanyon wrote:
| Interesting. I have a strong subconscious urge to keep my mouth
| shut -- not kidding, I think inspired by watching Mary Poppins
| as a kid: "Mouth closed, Michael, we are not a codfish." So
| even when I am most focused, my mouth is always closed.
| amelius wrote:
| I often catch myself grinding my teeth while being focused.
| Which of course makes mouth breathing impossible.
|
| When I am _really_ focused for a long time, this even causes
| my jaw to become stiff and speaking becomes very difficult
| for a while.
| manmal wrote:
| Some people have insufficient airflow through the nose. If you
| look at Magnus' nose (and midface), it looks slightly recessed,
| which could result in partial airway blockage. Him
| mouthbreathing could be a strategy to get more air in. I'm not
| sure that can be generalized.
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| Sadly, people with allergies and/or deviated septums often
| breathe through their mouth. Also... breathing through your nose
| increases nitric oxide in the upper airway.
| tapia wrote:
| I am (was) one of those people (allergies and slightly deviated
| septum). I started to really breath through my nose about two
| years ago. I always thought that it would not be possible,
| because I felt that I could not get enough air. I started
| practicing while cycling to work everyday. At the beginning it
| really felt super hard (especially since I have to ride up the
| hill, about 200m altitude difference), but after a few days of
| this, it was not hard anymore and I started to breath
| exclusively through my nose without problems. I think that
| allergies, although still present, are less intense and it
| doesn't impair me to breath properly. So, just try.
| throw0101c wrote:
| > _I started practicing while cycling to work everyday._
|
| For doing cardio I was told/taught (by whom I can't remember)
| to generally breathe in through your nose and out through
| your mouth.
|
| This allows for air to come in through the path that your
| body was 'designed' to do it, but you can also expel carbon
| dioxide more quickly (so the theory goes).
| tapia wrote:
| That's what I thought too, but after reading the book
| "Breath" by James Nestor (as others have mentioned in this
| thread) I decided to try that. And it really works. I think
| that if you exhale to fast and inhale immediately, then you
| are not really getting rid of all the CO2 that you
| could/should. So, by doing it at a slower rhythm, then you
| get more efficient in getting air in and CO2 out.
| caeril wrote:
| I'm sorry, but how does this work? HIIT, for example, gets
| me up to requiring 40 breaths per minute for the oxygen.
| There is simply not enough airway cross-section across the
| nose to take in air at this rate. During allergy season,
| when one nostril is completely blocked, it's impossible to
| do for even basic metabolic function.
| nanomonkey wrote:
| The whole point of HIIT is to tax your aerobic system.
| One can easily do work outs within the ranges of energy
| production that don't go into anaerobic respiration. For
| example you can do high load lifting in short burst and
| just use your ATP stores, which generally means for a
| count of 10 or less, with enough time in between to
| replenish the ATP fully. Or you can do aerobic exercise
| at a pace where your body has enough oxygen to always be
| using glucose to keep up with ATP usage (Zone 2
| training).
|
| The original author probably was limiting their bicycle
| cadence to something that they could do continuously with
| their nose closed. I personally do something similar
| while running and weight training. It was hard at first,
| but your body gets stronger and more capable at
| exchanging CO2 over time. I wouldn't try this with HIIT
| though, and generally think that HIIT is a terrible
| training methodology as it leave you sore and incapable
| of doing more work outs as the processing of lactic acid
| is harmful if not damaging to muscle cells.
| ranger47 wrote:
| What opened things up for you? I suffer from allergies, and
| have a slightly deviated septum, and I've tried so many
| sprays (caused dependency), breathing strips (falls off in
| the night), and even 3D printed a small cradle that would
| force my nose to open wider as I slept, which proved to be
| nothing short of annoying. I'm always open to trying new
| methods.
| rsync wrote:
| Ok, but did you try exercising?
|
| I mean this seriously:
|
| your body naturally dilates your entire respiratory system
| in response to oxygen demand - and not by a trivial amount.
|
| As someone who has a suspected less than perfect septum,
| and experiences allergies from time to time, I have gone
| from simply noticing the dilation effect to _actively
| pursuing_ it as a remedy.
|
| Which is to say, if I stay the night somewhere with indoor
| cats, I alleviate the symptoms by going for a run ...
|
| YMMV. IANAD. HNY!
| LanceH wrote:
| I had the surgery to have my deviated septum fixed and it
| was a good decision. First, I could breathe through my
| nose. Another huge benefit, though, was that all those
| sinus infections that couldn't drain kept turning into ear
| infections -- that just stopped.
|
| The recovery from the surgery wasn't too bad for getting
| back to work -- I think I missed two days and the weekend.
| But the healing process gave me incredible headaches for
| about two months which went away entirely. Mine was badly
| deviated, though.
| nemo44x wrote:
| You can get surgery that will open things up.
| ranger47 wrote:
| Naturally, this and a CPAP are in consideration, but
| getting to that point is profoundly difficult without
| health insurance in the US. I am seeking solutions for
| relief in the meantime.
| tapia wrote:
| I use to use sprays but at some point just stopped, because
| they were nor really helping. For some years I just
| accepted that my nose does not work properly. There were
| always some moments were I could use my nose but then it
| would get blocked. It was only after I read a book (Breath
| by John Nestor) that I started really trying. And it really
| worked! I wouldn't say that it will work for everyone,
| since I have no data and this is not my field, but many
| things from the book make sense and it is worth a try.
| quercusa wrote:
| What kind of sprays - Afrin type (oxymetazoline)? The
| dependency on those can be pretty awful. My ENT prescribed
| Azelastine, an antihistamine nasal spray that has worked
| wonders for me. It appears to raise the threshold for
| allergic reactions which can include swelling of the nasal
| passages. I knew I needed it in the Spring but I've found
| that if I don't use it daily I snore really badly, so I
| think that general house dust is causing some trouble. My
| wife is much happier now that I'm using it again.
| ranger47 wrote:
| Yep, Afrin and the like. They open things up nicely, for
| a time, then I have to keep using it or I spend a week
| feeling extremely blocked before returning to my baseline
| of annoyingly blocked.
|
| I have not heard of Azelstine, and will bring that up to
| my doctor, thanks!
| brigandish wrote:
| It sounds like you need a CPAP machine or the like.
| touisteur wrote:
| CPAP is nice, but it can be a pain in the ass ; 9 months
| in I'm still struggling to use it consistently, with
| heavily deviated septum, allergies, seasonal sniffing.
| When I can consistently keep the mask on (nose) without
| feeling like I'm drowning, for at least a week, I get
| quite the refreshed feeling. Quite rare though... Tried
| all possible machine tunings, products, herbs, massages,
| activities... Still not there yet. And the surgeon isn't
| convinced I'll get better sleep even with deviated septum
| surgery, says he'd need to correct stuff 'behind' too.
| There's the 'mouth and nose' mask option but that leaks
| far more and is even more harder to sleep with...
|
| Seems if you breathe from your mouth when you grow up,
| your tongue isn't parked up, pushing on your palate, and
| your jaw and face bones don't grow up correctly and it's
| very hard to correct as an adult. I get bone and
| articulation pains with the CPAP machine, since my tongue
| is now parked correctly it pushes hard...
|
| Get your kids looked at. It's all hereditary for me
| (deviated septum) and I regret no-one telling me to get
| it looked at seriously when younger.
| hackernewds wrote:
| > started to really breath through my nose about two years
| ago
|
| How? And despite your allergies, septum that were preventing
| it?
| jonsen wrote:
| I did a similar process about two years ago. Started after
| reading Breath by James Nestor. The book doesn't prescribe
| anything but gives a very wide perspective of
| possibilities. I think what really did it for me was breath
| holding exercises.
| tapia wrote:
| This is exactly how I got motivated! The book really
| helped me. Nice to hear that it also helped you.
| adaml_623 wrote:
| Reading through this article and comment thread makes me feel
| like I should be using a throwaway account to admit that I've
| been worried for years about the proportion of time I breath
| through my mouth due to feeling that I don't get enough air
| through my nose.
|
| This sentence, "Every participant practiced becoming familiar
| with oral breathing until the participants could naturally
| switch their breathing pattern from nasal breathing" made me
| feel like I must be an alien.
|
| I will say however that there are a fair number of comments in
| this thread that are not really up to the standard I'd expect
| from HN. I'm quite intrigued to see "mouth breathers" referred
| to in such derogatory terms. What kind of social indoctrination
| has triggered that response?
| loopdoend wrote:
| The book Breath by James Nestor really sparked a popular
| awareness about breathing.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I read this few months ago. I did not like it.
| adaml_623 wrote:
| That was published in 2020. It doesn't feel like the root
| cause of the opinions being voiced in the comments.
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _"Also... breathing through your nose increases nitric oxide
| in the upper airway"_
|
| But that's a good thing, right? Nitric oxide being a
| vasodilator and bronchodilator, it promotes and regulates good
| respiratory function.
| canadianfella wrote:
| [dead]
| vitaflo wrote:
| I haven't been able to really breathe through my nose my entire
| life. I've really never had any negative effects from it. Not
| cognitive (that I know of), top of my class, now a SWE. Not
| dental, haven't had a cavity in 40 years. Not physical, I used
| to run track in HS/College and often got on the podium. Nor
| illness, I haven't had any sinus infections.
|
| It's possible I just don't know what I'm missing, but (highly
| anecdotally) I haven't felt I've suffered having to breathe
| thru my mouth at all. Maybe it'll take me out when I get older,
| but I also don't know the difference.
| code51 wrote:
| Looks like they were trained in nasal breathing and asked to
| close their mouths during the nasal breathing session.
|
| "Unexpected activity appeared in the superior and inferior
| frontal gyri independent of working memory" - seems their brain
| was focused on properly executing these nasal breathing
| instructions/training - which would be expected.
|
| Doesn't say too much considering sample size.
|
| A better study could be configured by observing twins (one with
| broken nose at one point, leading to majorly deviated septum and
| inherently limiting nasal breathing vs the other twin)
| dchftcs wrote:
| Given that breathing is a normal, natural activity, there
| should also be a "ground state" MRI where someone normally does
| nasal breathing is examined without being given any
| instructions to do so. I also don't see how they conclude from
| this the effects of "prolonged" breathing activity.
|
| Their strong claims relative to the sample size and the quality
| of the experiment makes me doubt their level of motivation to
| do proper science. Just another flimsy paper used to pad
| resumes.
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