[HN Gopher] Scheduled to Die: The Rise of Canada's Assisted Suic...
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Scheduled to Die: The Rise of Canada's Assisted Suicide Program
Author : sfusato
Score : 93 points
Date : 2022-12-27 16:01 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thefp.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thefp.com)
| ttul wrote:
| The "Free Press" is a Substack site published by Bari Weiss, an
| American journalist whose point of view has been described as
| conservative, even "provocative." I think a degree of critical
| thinking should be engaged when reading anything she puts out.
| Her standard journalism is, at best, "opinion."
|
| This article, like many others I have come across in recent
| months, describes medical assistance in dying (MAiD) as if it's
| metastasizing into Canada's leading cause of death - the ultimate
| escape from any form of suffering whatsoever. The reality is that
| prior to MAiD, many people were assisted in their death, under
| the radar, by a compassionate palliative care doctor or nurse,
| who would show the patient how to turn the knob up on their
| fentanyl drip. Those less fortunate would commit suicide in more
| brutal ways, something with which we are all doubtless far too
| familiar. The terminally ill were forced to suffer a terrible end
| of life, all in the name of persisting life at all costs -
| including human dignity.
|
| The question we all should be asking is this: is it right for
| someone to have the freedom to choose the time and manner of
| their own death? People do it already through suicide, but it's
| not a nice ending. Suicide generates a good deal of family shame
| to go along with the suffering of self-administered death.
|
| Nobody likes death, but it is inevitable. The question Canada
| asked - and answered - is that a compassionate death should be an
| option for those who wish it for themselves when they have no
| reasonable prospect of turning around a terrible situation from
| which there is no reasonable prospect of recovery.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss
| guilhas wrote:
| Choosing to die will never a "nice" death
|
| If your country, society, economy, life quality, health, is not
| good that you choose to die, that is obviously a sign that
| something is wrong and it should revolt everyone, assisted or
| not
| aksss wrote:
| You could have left the first paragraph off and not detracted
| from the value of your contribution in any way. In truth, I
| think it would have been a stronger lead-in to do so.
| josephcsible wrote:
| > whose point of view has been described as conservative, even
| "provocative." I think a degree of critical thinking should be
| engaged when reading anything she puts out.
|
| Should a degree of critical thinking not be engaged when
| reading things put out by people with liberal points of view?
| ttul wrote:
| Assisted death is a liberal concept; social conservatives
| criticize it because, in the conservative worldview [1], any
| form of self-determined death is considered immoral. In light
| of the conservative view of this issue, it is useful to apply
| a critical eye.
|
| 1. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/assisted-dying-bill-
| ottawa-...
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| In the linked article, conservatives are objecting to a new
| legal standard which requires doctors to either kill
| patients themselves or find another doctor who's willing to
| do it. This seems like a pretty straightforward argument
| for the conservative position; in just 8 years Canada has
| traveled from "people in extreme pain have a right to self-
| determined death" to "you're a bad doctor if you won't give
| your patients lethal injection drugs".
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| We need more evidence than a handful of ancedotes to
| proclaim that the entire country of Canada has changed
| its position on doctor quality based on willingless to
| participate in MAiD. I get that this is an emotional
| thing but we're really talking to basically a mom who
| says she knows better than her adult son whether or not
| he wants to kill himself (regardless of whether or not I
| personally disagree with the son, that situation is
| emotionally totally fucked and I don't think its
| representative of the entire country)
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| The article linked in the comment I'm responding to is
| based not on a handful of anecdotes but new standards
| from the courts and Parliament. " Last year, the Ontario
| Court of Appeal ruled unanimously that doctors who have
| moral objections to providing health services like
| abortion or assisted death must provide patients with an
| 'effective referral' to another doctor."
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| You told me that doctors who don't want to participate in
| MAiD can willingly opt-out of it and refer any patients
| to other doctors.
|
| This seems completely opposite, unless you mean doctors
| are being forced to not throw up barriers to access to
| MAiD to be the same as being forced to participate in
| MAiD, which seems totally backwards.
| josephcsible wrote:
| If you don't believe in killing people, you shouldn't
| have to give a recommendation of someone who does.
| notatoad wrote:
| Health care in canada is limited by availability, and
| there's often a wait to be able to see a doctor. If a
| patient has waited in line to see a doctor, but the
| doctor they draw fails to treat them, a referral allows
| the patient to see another doctor instead of being sent
| to the back of the line again.
|
| A doctor should not be able to impede or delay somebody's
| legal right to medical care just because they have a
| personal objection to it.
| [deleted]
| ttul wrote:
| I'd love to know where you're reading that "you're a bad
| doctor if you won't give your patients lethal injection
| drugs." As with Canada's abortion laws, doctors aren't
| required to perform the procedure, but they must still
| provide assistance to patients who require it. If doctors
| are given a free hand to apply their own moral code, then
| what's the point in having a law that legalizes and
| regulates a particular medical practice?
| nyolfen wrote:
| you can think that creating incentive and opportunity for
| the state to kill people is troubling without a religious,
| or even conservative framework
| ttul wrote:
| Except that's not what's happening here. The law itself
| is carefully drafted and abuse of the law for deceptive
| reasons like saving money in healthcare would not be
| lawful.
|
| Secondly, if the state fails to provide a regulatory
| framework for assisted dying, people tend to take matters
| into their own hands. Recall that the Canadian system for
| assisted death was established as a result of a sequence
| of court decisions dating back to 1993 [2]. Unlike the
| United States, the Supreme Court of Canada is viewed as
| largely apolitical.
|
| Someone can only be eligible for assisted death if they
| have a "grievous and irremediable medical condition,"
| they've asked for it without external pressure, AND they
| give their consent AFTER being told of other options such
| as palliative care that might otherwise serve to
| alleviate their suffering.
|
| The concept of a "grievous and irremediable medical
| condition" is also defined carefully in the law. To
| qualify, they must "have a serious and incurable illness,
| disease or disability; they are in an advanced state of
| irreversible decline in capability; and that illness,
| disease or disability or that state of decline causes
| them enduring physical or psychological suffering that is
| intolerable to them and that cannot be relieved under
| conditions that they consider acceptable."
|
| Mental illness is specifically excluded: "For the
| purposes of paragraph (2)(a), a mental illness is not
| considered to be an illness, disease or disability." The
| government was set to allow mental illness as an eligible
| category in March 2023, but that has been delayed for
| further study.
|
| [1] https://laws-
| lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/page-33.html#h...
|
| [2] https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-
| csc/en/item/14637/inde...
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Look bari weiss fucking sucks. My political views are
| absolutely fringe left wing so this is a real "the worst person
| you know just made a great point" moment for me.
|
| > The question we all should be asking is this: is it right for
| someone to have the freedom to choose the time and manner of
| their own death?
|
| That's not the question though, and the fact that it's being
| framed that way, in a way that almost no reasonable and
| compassionate person could disagree with, is part of the harm
| here. The question is really more like "who chooses this, and
| why, and what did they ask for first, and did they get it?"
| This is not a simplified abstract philosophical issue.
|
| My views on this come from being part of a group adjacent to
| and with a lot of overlap with communities of disabled people.
| Disabled people are diverse and have a lot of different
| experiences but the main way they are perceiving this is "they
| won't give me the support I need to live but they will give me
| the means to end my life."
|
| The issue here _is not_ compassionate death for terminal
| patients, which again almost everyone opposing this does
| support in the abstract. The issue is in the actual
| implementation, which in its current form is frighteningly
| close to eugenics. Disabled people are particularly sensitive
| to things resembling eugenics, and they picked up on this
| early.
|
| The opposition to it from those groups has been principled and
| consistent for _years_ now. They predicted this as the likely
| practical outcome and were dismissed as callous doomsayers. Now
| what they predicted has come true. It is time to drop the
| compassionate-care-for-the-terminal angle and face what is
| actually in front of us with this policy. Those people still do
| have the right to end their lives with dignity but it cannot
| come at the expense of other groups, which with this it does.
| LawTalkingGuy wrote:
| Total hit piece on the journalist. Try engaging with the story
| before poisoning the well.
|
| The problem with MAiD the way Canada implemented it is that
| there are _incentives_ for the system to off you. In that
| scenario you mention with the doctor he didn 't get paid to
| show you the switch, and he risks being charged if his healthy
| patients start dying. Now it's risk free, he could clear his
| schedule for the holidays and face no recriminations.
|
| > is it right for someone to have the freedom to choose the
| time and manner of their own death
|
| That's not the question that ended up being asked, it's can a
| doctor recommend that your depressed child be killed before
| they've put any effort into therapy.
|
| Or, can a hospital administrator reward the nurses' pod with
| the most patient suicides with a bonus?
|
| > is that a compassionate death should be an option [...] no
| reasonable prospect of turning around a terrible situation
| [...] no reasonable prospect of recovery
|
| Yeah, that's not how it works. They're supposed to ask that
| sort of stuff, and you aren't supposed to want to die for lack
| of some food, but in fact it's not helping the people you think
| and not saving those you'd wish.
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| > Now it's risk free, he could clear his schedule for the
| holidays and face no recriminations.
|
| Can you cite this happening?
|
| > Or, can a hospital administrator reward the nurses' pod
| with the most patient suicides with a bonus?
|
| Can you cite this happening?
|
| > Yeah, that's not how it works. They're supposed to ask that
| sort of stuff, and you aren't supposed to want to die for
| lack of some food, but in fact it's not helping the people
| you think and not saving those you'd wish.
|
| Can you cite statistics on a population? There are multiple
| MAiD online communities. Surely someone has surveyed them?
| LawTalkingGuy wrote:
| > Can you cite this happening?
|
| Can you cite a rule preventing this? We'd like to keep it
| from happening.
|
| > There are multiple MAiD online communities.
|
| The Veterans community is pretty pissed off about that
| Paralympian athlete who was offered suicide instead of a
| wheelchair ramp. They don't feel this is working correctly.
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| > Can you cite a rule preventing this? We'd like to keep
| it from happening.
|
| You made the claim that it's happening, not that we need
| a rule to prevent a hypothetical. This is a goalpost-
| moving behavior.
|
| > The Veterans community is pretty pissed off about that
| Paralympian athlete who was offered suicide instead of a
| wheelchair ramp. They don't feel this is working
| correctly.
|
| This isn't the same as a population-based study to prove
| that these are not edge case exceptions that receive
| appropriate outcry and thereby support. I'm more
| interested in whether or not this is happening broadly. I
| want to know if this is happening to people who wouldn't
| get broad support, like homeless felons, on a population-
| wide level.
| LawTalkingGuy wrote:
| > You made the claim that it's happening
|
| No, I said 'could'. There's apparently no useful rule
| preventing it.
|
| > This isn't the same as a population-based study to
| prove that these are not edge case exceptions that
| receive appropriate outcry and thereby support.
|
| It doesn't need to be, it's an existence proof of bad
| policy. Even one case like this is too much.
| ttul wrote:
| You could make criticisms of nearly any law if the bar
| for criticism is just that it's possible to push edge
| case X or Y. I think it's far more important and relevant
| to establish whether edge case X or Y is occurring with
| regularity.
|
| There are abuses of every law from time to time - and
| sometimes with concerning regularity. I don't see any
| evidence being put forward in the present article that
| the alleged potential abuses of the MAiD legislation are
| widespread.
| LawTalkingGuy wrote:
| > I don't see any evidence [...]
|
| I think that's the wrong standard for this - "visible
| evidence of failure", or "fully convincing rational". The
| burden of proof should be that we stop it unless we can
| show continual evidence of proportionality.
|
| The point isn't that this is horrible now, it's that it
| doesn't seem to have the type of guidelines we'd posited
| that would keep it from getting horrible.
|
| > it's far more important and relevant to establish [...]
| occurring with regularity
|
| I don't know how many disabled veterans they've offed,
| but even offering it to the one shows a stunning lack of
| ability to judge need and a heinous disregard for that
| person's life.
|
| Having a doctor recommend you kill yourself is likely to
| be somewhat devastating and have its own consequences
| even if you don't follow through.
|
| > You could make criticisms of nearly any law if the bar
| for criticism is just that it's possible to push edge
| case X or Y.
|
| It's not just possible, it's economically incentivized.
| Both at the individual and systemic level.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Why can't we preemptively defend against bad things
| happening? Why do we have to wait until we see them happen
| and only then react to them?
| e_i_pi_2 wrote:
| I definitely support assisted suicide, but not for economic
| reasons. If someone feels helpless because they can't afford a
| house or food that should be given to them. I think we're a
| little ahead of the curve here because we don't have robust
| safety nets yet
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsVORMDqU0 This is a great video
| on the topic from Canadians, it's 90mins but has good info and
| different perspectives
| mradek wrote:
| Sounds dystopian. I'd rather we get people the help they need
| than start suggesting death to anyone who is suffering, even
| those not facing terminal illness etc.
|
| Is life really that unimportant these days?
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I've come back to this country and have had two people with
| mental illnesses tell me they want to apply for this shit, which
| aren't being properly addressed because you basically have to be
| committed to a mental institution in order to get proper mental
| healthcare here. I honestly think it's fucked. The provision for
| this and mental health issues which they're just not even fucking
| trying to treat just makes my blood boil.
|
| Look I honestly think it should be a thing, people should have
| the right to access to this for terminal illnesses and all that
| which it makes absolute sense for - but implementing it in the
| middle of a huge public healthcare crisis [1] is the worst timing
| ever. I waited a month just to see a GP for a simple prescription
| refill. And before you tell me I'm complaining about something
| that's free, I returned to Canada with a 16k medical bill because
| I didn't declare I left the province, as it turns out something
| called medical service premiums are a thing in some provinces.
| All to come back to waiting a month for a GP? I'm paying this
| shit off, and leaving forever. A lot of other smart people have
| too.
|
| Hey check out this guy in this news report, he has like BACK PAIN
| ISSUES and is being encouraged to do this shit. Oh sorry unfit
| for work eh? Well sorry that's too bad _cocks gun_ [2]
|
| [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-
| system...
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up5k2Lx5SPI
| throwntoday wrote:
| The particularly disgusting part is discussing savings to the
| healthcare system. They're not even trying to be opaque about
| it.
|
| My fear is it becoming so normalized that anyone going through
| a bout of depression will be influenced by people online and
| the healthcare system to go forward with this. Truly breaks my
| heart.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I don't really think things are going to get THAT bleak just
| because I understand this to be at the discretion of
| individual doctors and it just feels a bit like a slippery
| slope fallacious argument. But the way things are NOW is
| pretty bleak, I mean they're definitely looking at it in a
| utilitarian money saving way.
|
| I've always been a supporter of medically assisted dying but
| you have to be so incredibly careful in implementing it. I
| don't think this is a great example of a fantastic
| implementation when you have people who are already on the
| edge of treatable mental illness crisis situations who simply
| aren't getting the best treatment they could be getting,
| publicly considering suicide with their friends. Like it just
| isn't what I would call the kind of society I'd like to live
| in, just hearing that is beyond stressful bullshit. I've
| already lost enough people to that. It just makes the general
| mental health climate feel soured. There's TV commercials
| promoting it and shit, and it just sends off huge NO bells in
| my mind. [1] I mean sure if you have cancer and everything
| didn't work and it's just excrutiating pain? Dementia and you
| are on the verge of aspiration pneumonia because you forgot
| how to eat? There's tons of conditions I have it in mind for
| but mental health problems is not the business...
|
| Anyways I am on my way to the tropics again for sunshine and
| happiness haha
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQieHW8rQU
| codetrotter wrote:
| > Today, thousands of people who could live for many years are
| applying--successfully--to kill themselves.
|
| If someone is living in suffering, it is better to give them the
| option to end their life if they want, than to insist that they
| keep on living just because they "could" continue to live for
| many years more.
| gedy wrote:
| > If someone is living in suffering, it is better to give them
| the option to end their life if they want, than to insist that
| they keep on living
|
| Problem with statements like that is defining "suffering" such
| that inappropriate situation like a depressed teenager isn't
| allowed to happen.
| okasaki wrote:
| It's not really clear that that is true. It may be true in some
| situations, but there's a big cost to having a legal framework
| where people can choose to die (and who can claim they haven't
| at some point in their lives?) and others can kill them without
| punishment (and even get paid to do it)
| mrkeen wrote:
| If you already have doctors and anaesthesiologists, why would
| there be excessive costs on the legal side of things? I can
| only imagine big expenses if there were a lengthy legal
| battle every time (like death row inmates in the US).
| tsimionescu wrote:
| If you read many examples, it would be even better to actually
| fix the simple causes of their suffering, such as a few hundred
| dollars per month.
|
| This seems like carte blanche to slowly take away all complex
| social care programs, and just have the resulting suffering
| people kill themselves.
| mrkeen wrote:
| > it would be even better
|
| This is you indirectly imposing your choice onto other people
| (e.g. you vote for a government which does the imposition on
| your behalf.)
|
| I'm all for social programs (or whatever the equivalent of
| "few hundred dollars per month is"). But why not let the
| individual decide on whether to die or not?
| tsimionescu wrote:
| That's OK, but it should always be treated as a last
| resort, lest perverse incentives creep in. Ideally, state
| programs would not see any cost reduction from losing
| someone to (state-assisted) suicide to avoid such
| incentives - perhaps they should be forced to continue
| paying the same amount they would have payed to the living
| person into some other fund or something of the same kind.
|
| No one should be confronted with the choice of whether to
| take their own life to make things simpler for others -
| living for your own sake, no matter how much of a burden
| you may be on others, is a basic right that assisted
| suicide programs can easily start infringing if not
| implemented very carefully.
| aksss wrote:
| Or just reduce the number of customers. It's working the
| demand side of the situation, hence them trumpeting the
| annual cost savings.
|
| Underneath all of this society is messaging that it has too
| many people, particularly a growing body of people not
| contributing in a substantial way to the well-being of that
| society. Some people are worth more dead than alive to
| government actuaries.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| Why, in that framework, should MAiD not be offered to someone
| in a major depressive episode who genuinely believes that life
| is pain and they'd like to end it? I understand the intuitive
| appeal of what you're saying from a secular perspective, but I
| don't see how this could possibly lead to a functional standard
| beyond a free for all.
| quantified wrote:
| Societally we only value quantity of life. Quality is
| completely secondary.
|
| When you consider that dying of Covid was considered to be a
| fine sacrifice to make to keep the economy flowing, you realize
| there isn't really even a principled objection to dying under
| your own terms.
| prottog wrote:
| > dying of Covid was considered to be a fine sacrifice to
| make to keep the economy flowing
|
| What you call "the economy" is actually people living normal
| lives, trying their best to make joy in a finite lifetime. It
| is exactly quality of life. Covid shutdowns exactly
| prioritized quantity over quality.
|
| If as a society we cannot permit the risk dying of Covid or
| indeed any other risk in life, we may as well stick people in
| a pod a la battery cells in The Matrix so that they live
| maximally safe lives.
| throwaway049 wrote:
| In a thread about moral choices I think it's notable that
| some people who wished to isolate and minimize their risk
| of disease were not financially able to do so. Their
| choice, though frustrated, would be just as valid as those
| who preferred to choose to take a risk.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| No, a normal life isn't risk-free. If you want to live a
| maximally safe life by spending it in a cocoon and having
| others provide what you need, that's on you to pay for.
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Or to put that another way, other people have to take
| risks that they are unhappy with in other to satisfy your
| risk preference and requirement for restaurant service
| etc.
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| Do we have broader studies on how many MAiD applicants are
| applicants due to economic hardship or lack of other resources,
| vs terminal illness or unbearable chronic illness? The article
| points to multiple MAiD support networks existing; has anyone
| surveyed them?
| quacked wrote:
| This is one of those things that seems so made-up I don't even
| have emotions about it. This article claims similar things that
| various far-right propagandists claim about the Canadian
| healthcare system--if you're depressed, the government will kill
| you for free, but you'll have to wait until an appointment opens
| up.
|
| It's such an absurd dystopian science-fiction concept that I have
| to assume it's false, and that every report of assisted suicide
| for someone other a terminally ill person is in some part
| fabricated.
|
| If these stories are not fabricated, and the government really is
| voluntarily euthanizing depressed people, then were I a citizen
| I'd be seriously thinking about [redacted] the Canadian
| government.
| josephcsible wrote:
| This seems dangerously close to saying "I don't believe this
| story because if it were true, then that would mean my side is
| wrong and the other side is right."
| xienze wrote:
| I think there's a lot of people who have trouble coming to
| grips with the fact that the "right wing propaganda" of ten
| years ago is today's reality. Give credit to the poster,
| they're at least acknowledging that such a thing might be
| possible.
| quacked wrote:
| Poster here--I consider myself "far-right" already, I just
| have a habit of not softening language when it's describing
| my own in-group. There are far-right thinkers and far-right
| propagandists, and I tend to listen to the first group and
| merely observe the second group. It's insane to see the
| ramblings and ravings of people who I considered sheer
| grifters come apparently come true.
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Coming from the far right, are you in favor of assisted
| suicide for people who cannot support themselves but are
| not terminally ill?
| quacked wrote:
| No. I believe any culture or society where suicide is
| considered a legitimate solution to anything except for
| terminal, unsolvable medical conditions is diseased and
| if the state participates in it I would consider such a
| government illegitimate.
| flanflan wrote:
| [flagged]
| Throw4949 wrote:
| [flagged]
| tensor wrote:
| The system is new and there are some instances of abuse, that
| doesn't mean it's a bad system. To me the idea in the US where
| you should remain alive and suffer immensely because you are
| poor and can't afford any help is far far less humane. I don't
| even consider the US a first world country due to how barbaric
| it's medical system is, not to mention it's outright slavery
| based prison system.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| >>remain alive and suffer immensely because you are poor and
| can't afford any help is far far less humane.
|
| Where exactly does that happen? The biggest complaint
| (rightly) about the US health system is the middle class is
| one accident, or health crisis away from bankruptcy.
|
| I am not aware of anyone that is "suffering immensely because
| they are poor". There are plenty of avenues to get care even
| if you can not afford it in the US.
| tensor wrote:
| Among many others, it's easy to point out one simple
| example. I've talked to many many many many americans who
| are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup
| because they cannot afford it. That is barbaric, that you
| even have to consider your health vs your money. In most
| first world countries you can go to the dr any time for
| free.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| >That is barbaric, that you even have to consider your
| health vs your money.
|
| Why is health care any different from Food, Shelter,
| Transportation, or any other thing we require but have to
| pay for in the market?
|
| Should government take over all grocery stores and
| provide you with "free" food as well?
|
| The idea that it is barbaric to charge for healthcare
| does not pass even a first pass logic test. To believe
| that you must reject the very idea of capitalism and
| market based economics, and if that is your position well
| history has a lot of lessons for you...
|
| >I've talked to many many many many americans who are
| reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because
| they cannot afford it.
|
| There are many reasons to forego that, I suspect the cost
| is not the only reasons. How many of them have even
| looked into what the price would be to go? I bet very few
| have taken even the first steps to find out. Cost is an
| easy scape goat
|
| >In most first world countries you can go to the dr any
| time for free.
|
| It is far far far far from free, taxpayer funded is not
| free. Most of those nations also look to the US protect
| the world, See the latest in UKR, while the US is
| spending billions there I do not see the EU, Candada or
| any other nation matching our defense contribution,
| either to UKR or NATO, or anywhere else. personally I
| would support moving to more of a medicare for all if
| (and only if) we go in to full isolationism and let the
| EU defend themselves
|
| that is with out getting into all the problems with EU,
| UK, or Canada Health systems (wait time, rationing, etc).
| Lots of rich people come to the US from those nations for
| care for a reason
| mrkeen wrote:
| I feel a bit of impulsive disbelief too, but it comes from
| totally the opposite direction.
|
| I think it's great that people can end their own life (and I'm
| not qualifying it by saying it's only for elderly people in
| pain). Even though I think it's right, my 'disbelief' comes
| from me thinking "Surely legalising this would be political
| suicide, and it would never get through any parliament ever!".
| kneebonian wrote:
| Let me present some additional sources then:
|
| https://unherd.com/thepost/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of...
|
| > But her organisation's internal training seminars tell an
| entirely different story. In a seminar tellingly titled
| "Accessing Alternatives to MAiD: What is the role of the MAiD
| Assessor when resources are inadequate?", Althea Gibb-Carsley,
| a recently retired MAiD professional in Vancouver, documents
| several real-life cases of patients who have sought to die
| because of a lack of housing or of other resources.
|
| > What euthanasia providers don't say out loud is that a
| patient who is turned down by one assessor can simply "doctor
| shop" for another one until a willing assessor is found. In
| another CAMAP seminar, Dr Ellen Wiebe describes a case of a man
| who was rejected by a MAiD assessor for the procedure because,
| as Raikin writes, "he did not have a serious illness or the
| 'capacity to make informed decisions about his own personal
| health.'" But a pro-euthanasia group connected him with Dr
| Wiebe, a prominent MAiD supporter who was previously accused by
| a Vancouver Jewish nursing home of sneaking in to euthanise one
| of its patients (to which she admitted; the provincial medical
| regulator cleared her of wrongdoing). As she recounts, she
| performed an assessment online, found him eligible, found
| another assessor who agreed with her, and drove him from the
| airport to her clinic, where she "provided for him" or, in
| other words, ended his life.
|
| > One 55-year-old woman who sought to die "identifies poverty
| as the driver of her MAiD request - food insufficiency and
| inability to access appropriate treatments". The slide (above)
| points out that "what she really needs" is "an extra $600 or so
| /month". Another patient, a 57-year-old man and published
| author, identified lack of housing and lack of access to
| medical care among the reasons for his request to die. He had
| been told that obtaining social housing would take between
| three and six years; he planned to "stretch credit to the edges
| then [...] set final date" for his death.
|
| https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanisin...
|
| > Many in the healthcare sector came to the same conclusion.
| Even before Bill C-7 was enacted, reports of abuse were rife. A
| man with a neurodegenerative disease testified to Parliament
| that nurses and a medical ethicist at a hospital tried to
| coerce him into killing himself by threatening to bankrupt him
| with extra costs or by kicking him out of the hospital, and by
| withholding water from him for 20 days. Virtually every
| disability rights group in the country opposed the new law. To
| no effect: for once, the government found it convenient to
| ignore these otherwise impeccably progressive groups.
|
| https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/paralympian-claims-cana...
|
| > Paralympian claims Canada offered to euthanise her when she
| asked for a stairlift
|
| These are just a few quick searches that corroborate what is
| discussed in the article.
| [deleted]
| pkphilip wrote:
| This is absolutely nuts! a 55 year old considering suicide
| for poverty?! something which can be solved with another
| $600/month and the govt allows them to die?! There has to be
| better ways for society to deal with these issues
| quacked wrote:
| Utter insanity
| hotpotamus wrote:
| One aspect of right wing politics I've never really been able
| to square is who owns your body, so to speak. I'm sure I could
| put this better, but if property rights mean anything, it would
| seem to me that your body is the one property you should have
| total ownership over, to the point of deciding on your own when
| to end your life. But the right wing seems quite opposed to it.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| In the US the "right wing" is not a monolith, in fact is more
| from an ideological stand point the right today is more
| diverse in political opinions than the left, as the left has
| cast out many of their more moderate members (i.e the Blue
| Dogs)
|
| Conservatives do not really hold you own your body,
| conservatives tend to believe in various types of religion
| which puts your body subservient to a higher power or god.
| Thus is immoral to kill yourself. It is not a property rights
| argument, it is an ethical argument.,
|
| then you have the libertarian right, which do use property
| rights and self ownership and many support assisted suicided,
| the ones that do not oppose governmental assisted largely
| because what is being perceived to be playing out out in real
| time (rightly or not) from Canada whereby the state has an
| incentive to direct people to suicided and maybe even force /
| Coerce them to "voluntary" dying either as a goal of the
| program, or just agents of the state abusing their positions.
| In either case state level suicided is seen as huge opening
| for abuse where even if you think people have the right to
| end their own life, trusting government with that power is
| not something they want to support.
| quacked wrote:
| I will attempt to explain, and I describe myself as "right
| wing" although it may be more accurate to call myself
| "romantic conservative":
|
| It is typically useful to ask yourself the following
| questions about any version of society:
|
| - Can you keep your stuff?
|
| - Can you do what you want with your stuff?
|
| - Who has the weapons?
|
| - Who won't be punished for making you do something?
|
| Right wingers tend to go on and on about "freedom", but
| through examination of these four questions it becomes clear
| that they don't mean it. They don't want you to keep your
| stuff if you acquired your stuff through theft, so they
| support a legal system that can prosecute "thieves", meaning
| that they decide what's "your stuff", and you can't keep it
| if they decide it's not yours. They don't want you to become
| trans, abort babies, start anti-national propaganda outlets,
| etc. so you're not allowed to do whatever you want with your
| stuff. They only want people who aren't criminals to have
| weapons, meaning that there are some people who shouldn't
| have the option to revolt if they want to. They are mostly
| unwilling to punish police officers even for major
| transgressions, so they want the martial caste to be immune
| to consequence.
|
| It is clear that all of the talk about "property rights",
| "liberty", and "freedom" is social posturing in order to
| appear more morally unimpeachable than their perceived
| opponents. Most people have semi-authoritarian views about
| the society in which they wish to live, and right-wingers are
| no different. Some of these ideals are noble in nature, but
| the actual implementation of these ideals in reality still
| requires authority prosecuting violations of rules regarding
| possession, trade, etc.
|
| Therefore, there's no real need to be surprised when
| "property rights" don't extend to your own body per "right
| wing" politics; "property rights" isn't actually a meaningful
| principle among most right wingers, it's merely an ideal that
| they wish to use as the basis for certain portions of the
| authoritarian society in which they wish to live.
|
| (Another example is loud music; if you own a stereo (your
| property) and your lot (your land) and you play loud music
| (your speech), most freedom-loving conservatives will do
| whatever they can to get the damn music off.)
| biomcgary wrote:
| Property rights is a primary focus of libertarians, not the
| right generally.
|
| In the West, the right believes that there is a natural moral
| order to reality, which generally does not include abortion
| or suicide. For the most part, this position is rooted in the
| Christian belief that all humans are made in God's image, so
| killing innocent humans is to spit in God's face.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| I'm not sure why this would be seen as a talking point for
| right-wing politics.
|
| The Canadian healthcare system _is_ broken (I say this as a
| progressive-left Canadian).
|
| The answer to people wanting to kill themselves because they
| can't easily get treatment for their depression, or other life
| issues, is to offer more support.
|
| That's something Canada isn't doing.
|
| I support MAiD, but it seems like there are a large number of
| people using it who would be better served by other social
| programs.
| [deleted]
| gptadmirer wrote:
| This should be celebrated!
|
| I don't think there will be negatives. There are only positives
| that can come with this.
|
| - lots of people can't take it anymore living in this cruel world
| without good job and economic prospects, or looking at the bleak
| environmental future
|
| - less people on Earth will make the Earth have a chance of
| recovering
|
| - labor will be more valued, less competition
|
| - less demand for housing, making housing cheaper
|
| - less demand for education, goods and services, making it lower
| in price
|
| - less strain on the economy by people who can't contribute
|
| - we can donate the organs to healthy people who need it more
|
| - we can use bodies for science
| jmacd wrote:
| I'm a Canadian. I want every single person in this country to get
| the best care possible right up until they die. If they want to
| keep the care coming, then I expect us to keep providing it.
|
| God help me if you decide that because you are giving me care,
| you also get to decide when and how I die. I want to decide that
| and if I choose to go at an appointed time with my family nearby
| and in a comfortable setting, then I will go a happy man.
|
| Will everyone make a decision I agree with? Are many lives worth
| living even when they don't feel like it? Will families and loved
| ones not want to let go? Are some people not mentally well enough
| at the time to make such a decision? Yes to all. It's complicated
| and difficult, but it is only more complicated and more difficult
| when the state tries to create rules about what is morally right
| and not.
| eulers_secret wrote:
| Wow, I had no idea assisted suicide due to economic circumstance
| was already a thing.
|
| It's so tragic that society has failed many people, and now
| instead of the extra help they need, they're just given the
| option to be killed outright.
|
| Personal anecdote: I intend to end my life with suicide. The
| circumstances would likely be when I get a terminal disease.
| Dragging out end-of-life is very traumatic for those around you.
| I have personal experience here.
|
| I could also see myself deciding to die over economic reasons: If
| I'm forced out of tech at ~45-55 (because ageism is very real),
| then I'll probably plan to die whenever I run out of money. If I
| can't make rent, and I can't work, and there's no help, suicide
| is an option to stop the pain. I'd rather be dead than homeless
| (because of how society treats them).
|
| I already have my plans, going to build an 'exit pod'. Nitrogen
| asphyxiation with CO2 scrubbers, and some kind of tech to
| determine I really am dead and contact EMS (arduino+ekg or O2 SAT
| and a phone) with a message about the situation. Trying to
| decrease trauma to others because of my death.
|
| The cruelty with which we treat normal people, even in the best
| situation on earth that ever has been, is absolutely shocking and
| disgusting.
|
| It's hard to accept that human life has no intrinsic value: Once
| we're no longer useful to our 'betters', we are culled. If you
| cannot produce economic value, those in power think you are
| better off dead.
| sambapa wrote:
| If you run out of money in the future then simply open suicide
| pod business because that design sounds great.
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Going to be difficult to build a brand on customer reviews
| though.
| aksss wrote:
| Customer reviews will be the family and government agencies
| as often as not. "Congrats on getting arrested for the
| fifth time - you can go through rehab again or you can get
| a voucher for Bob's Pod private MAID service. This also
| includes dinner and a night in a hotel chain of your
| choice."
| [deleted]
| hackinthebochs wrote:
| I've seen a lot of consternation online regarding this program,
| with most of it simply presenting the idea of assisted suicide as
| self-evidently unconscionable. But why think so? Why should
| someone be forced to continue to live a life they have no
| interest in, regardless of the reason? This idea that the highest
| virtue is to continue breathing for as long as possible is
| probably an ideological holdout from our Christian past, where
| suffering was virtuous and our fates were in God's hands, not our
| own. The West has become largely secular, but our Christian
| forebearers still have immense influence.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| The problem is that killing those whose lives are currently bad
| is much simpler than helping them fix their lives. That is the
| undesirable outcome - that those who aren't lucky just die,
| instead of making a system where everyone is well off enough
| that they don't feel death is better than going on living
| (except a very small handful of people with incurable painful
| or otherwise debilitating conditions, of course).
| hackinthebochs wrote:
| But that's not an argument against assisted suicide. If you
| don't like the choices people are making, absolutely offer
| them more options so they can choose otherwise. But if there
| is no willingness to fund these alternatives, forcing people
| to continue to suffer so that your aesthetic sense isn't
| offended isn't justifiable.
| kneebonian wrote:
| There is a difference between the argument against assisted
| suicide and an argument against the way Canada is doing
| assisted suicide. This article is about the latter not the
| former.
| hackinthebochs wrote:
| The article isn't really an argument against it either.
| It's simply presenting events with the understanding that
| people will see it as self-evidently unconscionable. I'm
| interested in arguments for this underlying assumption.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| My fear is governments instituting such programs _instead_
| of offering more choices, and perhaps even then looking at
| statistics skewed by assisted suicide to argue against
| instituting other programs.
|
| Personally, I think that in any wealthy country, even one
| person feeling that their life isn't worth continuing for
| purely economic reasons should be considered a failure of
| the entire government. I of course know we are nowhere near
| such an attitude being mainstream, but that is where my
| point is coming from.
|
| I am very much afraid of right-wing governments feeling
| more and more empowered to say "if they don't like their
| living conditions, they can just ask for assisted suicide"
| as the ultimate alternbcative to any social investment.
| josephcsible wrote:
| > right-wing governments feeling more and more empowered
| to say "if they don't like their living conditions, they
| can just ask for assisted suicide"
|
| Wait, isn't the right wing very much against assisted
| suicide in all forms?
| tsimionescu wrote:
| There are many aspects of right-wing thinking (just as
| left-wing) and the more capitalist-libertarian or
| anarcho-capitalist ones (that are some of the most
| popular) are much less bothered by assisted suicide than
| by social spending.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| > forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in
|
| Who said they have no interest in life? There are already clear
| examples of people choosing this who _do_ want to continue
| living, but don 't see a way to meet their own needs with the
| resources given to them.
|
| Later down thread you switch to a "there is no interest in
| funding them" argument. Which is straight up wicked sorry.
| That's just saying regardless of whether you find life living,
| we don't find _your life_ worth living, so expect you to end
| it.
|
| I don't have any particular generalized moral objection to
| suicide per se. I believe people should be able to meet the end
| of their life on their own terms with dignity and agency. But I
| also know that we live in an unequal world, and that people
| will be, _are now_ presented with this option when they would
| not otherwise choose it, when _we_ don 't find their lives
| worth living.
| hackinthebochs wrote:
| >Who said they have no interest in life?
|
| This is different than "forced to continue to live a life
| they have no interest in".
|
| >Later down thread you switch to a "there is no interest in
| funding them" argument.
|
| I didn't switch to anything. It was a premise of a specific
| argument in response to a specific claim.
|
| >That's just saying regardless of whether you find life
| living, we don't find your life worth living, so expect you
| to end it.
|
| This just has no relation whatsoever to anything I said.
|
| >I don't have any particular generalized moral objection to
| suicide per se. I believe people should be able to meet the
| end of their life on their own terms with dignity and agency.
|
| Great, we agree on that point. My further point is that those
| currently suffering should not bear the burden of our
| inability to collectively decide to fund further improvements
| to their quality of life.
| TheFreim wrote:
| My position on euthanasia and (assisted) suicide:
|
| > Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special
| respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead
| lives as normal as possible.
|
| > Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in
| putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying
| persons. It is morally unacceptable.
|
| > Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention,
| causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder
| gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the
| respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment
| into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature
| of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and
| excluded.
|
| > Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome,
| dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected
| outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of "over-zealous"
| treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability
| to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by
| the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those
| legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will
| and legitimate interests must always be respected.
|
| > Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a
| sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of
| painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the
| risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with
| human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means,
| but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is
| a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be
| encouraged.
|
| > Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given
| it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We
| are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his
| honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not
| owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to
| dispose of.
|
| > Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being
| to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to
| the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor
| because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family,
| nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have
| obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
|
| > If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an
| example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of
| scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the
| moral law.
|
| > Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of
| hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility
| of the one committing suicide.
|
| > We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who
| have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can
| provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays
| for persons who have taken their own lives.
|
| Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraphs
| 2276-2283
| FpUser wrote:
| Waiting for something like: apply for early MAID, receive 10%
| bonus to your pension.
|
| I think that given enough time this MAID thing will be
| commercialized and grossly abused.
| trdtaylor1 wrote:
| Unfortunately the rollout of the program in the Canadian military
| veteran community leaves something to be desired as well;
| numerous vets calling for assistance kept being informed of the
| assisted suicide program versus getting the help they had asked
| for. Considering how it's starting to make news waves in Canada
| i'm surprised they don't mention it at all.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...
| croes wrote:
| The problem is, how do you communicate the possibility without
| it being perceived as a suggestion?
| phpisthebest wrote:
| You dont, it should NEVER be offered as a possibility, only
| if the person directly inquires about it should be talk about
| tejohnso wrote:
| Why should options be held back? I'd want to know all
| options available to me for whatever my scenario is rather
| than being treated like a child who can't decide for
| themselves. When I ask for help I want all reasonable
| possibilities presented because I'm not going to think of
| everything.
| Jarwain wrote:
| In a general situation, yeah sure that makes sense. But
| this is Death. It's always an option, everyone knows it's
| an option, and sometimes it's an easier option. Leaving
| it to the person to suggest makes it the last resort, and
| ensures all other options have been exhausted.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Have you seen some of the videos coming out of Canada,
| where "doctors" who are more or less agents of the state
| have presented that not as an option, but the best
| option.
|
| For example there was one person that was trying to get
| In-Home nursing, which my understanding was an option but
| the "doctor" kept pushing suicide as the better choice,
| this person clearly did not want to die, but it was being
| pushed as the first option for them.
|
| The perverse incentives of state run healthcare combined
| with a suicide option opens up all manner of abuse, and
| unintended results.
| croes wrote:
| Why? We are not talking about mentally unstable people but
| people with severe medical condition.
|
| Why is it more acceptable to list all possibilities to
| prolong a life in pain but not to reduce the time to
| suffer?
| kneebonian wrote:
| There's a strict law in other places that a provider can
| never bring up the option, it must always be a patient
| initiated discussion.
| croes wrote:
| If you don't know this option exists, you won't necessarily
| mention it voluntarily for fear of being committed to a
| psychiatric ward.
| LawTalkingGuy wrote:
| This is very real and dystopian. If they hear that you're
| suicidal you'll get a straight-jacket and involuntarily
| medicated but if they see your broken ankle they'll
| suicide you for free.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| Weren't all veteran cases due to one employee who was not a
| medical professional and was suspended when reported? Maybe
| there is a systematic issue, but I haven't seen evidence of
| that yet.
| [deleted]
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Canadian society is such a failed society at this point that even
| to die you need to wait for months to get an appointment.
| [deleted]
| kneebonian wrote:
| A couple of excerpts from the article
|
| > In May, Victoria took a hard look at their budget. They
| couldn't go on like this for long. "Mom," Joan recalled Victoria
| telling her, "I don't think we can survive. We have to apply for
| MAiD."
|
| > She had known that her 23-year-old son, Kiano Vafaeian, was
| depressed--he was diabetic and had lost his vision in one eye,
| and he didn't have a job or girlfriend or much of a future...
| That was when Marsilla learned that Kiano had applied and, in
| late July, been approved for "medical assistance in dying," aka
| MAiD, aka assisted suicide.
|
| > Indeed, in some Canadian provinces nearly 5 percent of deaths
| are MAiD deaths. In 2021, the province of Quebec reported that
| 4.7 percent of deaths in the province were due to MAiD; in
| British Columbia, the number was 4.8 percent.
|
| > Next March, the government is scheduled to expand the pool of
| eligible suicide-seekers to include the mentally ill and "mature
| minors."
|
| > In October 2020, the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
| issued a report stating that MAiD would cut healthcare costs by
| over $66 million.
|
| > In 2017, Aaron Trachtenberg, a research fellow and a doctor at
| the University of Manitoba, and Braden Manns, a health economist
| and nephrologist at the University of Calgary, published a paper
| predicting that MAiD could slash healthcare costs by as much as
| $100 million yearly.
|
| > He added: "When we have people who are genuinely suffering, and
| we don't provide them options for dignified living, but we
| provide them with what we label as a painless death,
| aksss wrote:
| > slash healthcare costs
|
| When there's a clear line-of-sight financial incentive in
| killing the citizenry, the policies will only further loosen
| qualifications and even incentives over time. This is how you
| go from a poster child of an advanced stage ALS patient to
| normalizing the government assisted death of a depressed
| diabetic. Will it become more frequent (rising from 5% of
| deaths)? Almost certainly. The knobs here are the
| qualifications and requirements, decided by financial incentive
| vs sense of decency. Where that line of collision will be is in
| age restrictions (minors) and qualifying health conditions.
|
| It's also interesting to think about how this intersects with
| capital punishment. If the government can off a non-criminal in
| a profitable way, then something in the math we hear about
| capital punishment being more expensive than lifetime
| incarceration is grossly incorrect.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| The entire reason for the direct expenses (as opposed to say,
| negative reputational effects) is the lengthy appeals
| process. Euthanasia lacks such gatekeeping.
| eikenberry wrote:
| [flagged]
| smnrchrds wrote:
| > _Indeed, in some Canadian provinces nearly 5 percent of
| deaths are MAiD deaths. In 2021, the province of Quebec
| reported that 4.7 percent of deaths in the province were due to
| MAiD; in British Columbia, the number was 4.8 percent._
|
| That's about in line with the Netherlands, to put things in
| perspective.
|
| https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
| clcaev wrote:
| Perhaps the title should be "15% of terminal patients choose
| assisted suicide".
|
| Presuming 35% of people who die, do so in need of palliative
| care [1] -- it is only a further one in seven who seek
| assisted suicide? In this light, I'd expect the number of
| deaths to be higher than 5%. Also, isn't it silly to report
| cause of death as suicide, when it was cancer or some other
| condition that would soon take their life regardless?
|
| [1] https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijpc/2014/529681/
| voisin wrote:
| I'd like to see a breakdown for the rationale of people using
| these programs. The absolute and relative numbers are
| irrelevant (IMO) if they are largely occurring for the "right
| reasons" like avoiding increasing pain or similar.
| notatoad wrote:
| see section 4 (and specifically chart 4.1A) here:
| https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-
| assi...
|
| 62% cancer patients, 80% coming from palliative care.
|
| section 4.5 discusses the new controversial new provision
| for 2021 which allowed patients to recieve MAiD even if
| their deaths are not "reasonably forseeable", which
| accounted for 2.2% of MAiD recipients, or 219 people.
| voisin wrote:
| Seems like the law is working exactly as intended then.
| 219 people, or 2.2% if participants, is an excellent
| outcome showing the program hasn't been taken over by
| greedy children pushing their elderly loved ones toward
| an early demise.
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| I would love to know if, of the 219 people, how many of
| them are victims of systemic neglect (e.g. chronic
| condition patient whose meds aren't covered by insurance,
| suicidal patient who cannot get inpatient therapy,
| addiction patient who has been denied methodone or other
| drug-assisted sobriety). Even if it's only 219 people, I
| think if even half were victims of systemic neglect, I
| would want very far-sweeping policy changes to prevent
| these deaths.
| [deleted]
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| While you have a point, I really do think the absolute
| numbers matter too. When 1 in 20 people die from MAiD, it's
| no longer a rare edge case regardless of how good their
| reasons might be; the provision of lethal injections is now
| a routine component of the Canadian healthcare system. I
| don't think that any routine procedure can be subject to
| the level of weightiness and caution required to end
| someone's life.
| voisin wrote:
| Wouldn't you expect that the use of this option would
| increase dramatically in a massively aging population
| like most western countries, particularly where people
| across the whole spectrum of ages are unhealthier than in
| past generations?
|
| I suppose this doesn't negate your comment but it does
| offer that there needs to be some adjustment for
| population aging and health overall, to give proper
| context.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| It's not about what you'd expect but about what the
| consequences of normalizing it are. If you'd never heard
| of MAiD before, you'd react with shock and horror to the
| mere suggestion that your family members should get a
| lethal injection like the USA gives to criminals. I think
| that reaction is the right one, and the "what's the big
| deal?" attitude you see a lot of downthread is terribly
| wrong.
| sdiacom wrote:
| It is very dishonest to frame it as the suggestion that
| "your family members should get a lethal injection like
| the USA gives to criminals", as it strongly implies a
| lack of agency and consent on their part.
|
| What's happening here, to put it in the same terms, is
| that "your family members should be allowed to choose to
| be administered a lethal injection, like the ones that
| are given to criminals in the USA, as a medical
| procedure, if and only if a doctor determines that this
| is a reasonable way to put an end to their physical or
| mental suffering".
|
| Turns out it's not really that shocking and horrifying
| unless you choose to be dishonest about it.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Perhaps ask why the doctor shouldn't react with horror at
| being asked to consider proactively ending someone's life
| the way we kill criminals, if the family is a stumbling
| block.
|
| (I realize by positioning "determines that this is a
| reasonable way to put an end to their physical or mental
| suffering" as the greatest and only consideration, you
| have a prior commitment to ending the lives of others
| when you like the sound of it. I will still try, though.)
| sdiacom wrote:
| The doctor should not react with horror in any case,
| because the doctor is a medical professional, not a paid
| actor in a pro-life advertisement, and I would certainly
| hope for him to behave as such.
|
| I'm not sure what your fixation with how criminals die is
| about -- there is no "nice" way to die, just more painful
| and less painful ones, more prolonged and less prolonged
| ones. Euthanasia gives us a choice that, speaking purely
| of the physical experience, is on the often-preferred end
| of the spectrum.
|
| The doctor should consider it to be an acceptable measure
| under a limited set of circumstances, and should consider
| it not to be acceptable in almost all other
| circumstances. In all cases, the decision is only to be
| taken by the person whose life is going to end. All the
| doctor can do is authorize or deny that decision, never
| to make it on their behalf.
|
| Family should often be consulted by the doctor in order
| to make that decision in an informed manner, but family
| doesn't get a vote. Your family does not own you or your
| body.
|
| I don't have any prior commitment to "ending the lives of
| others", and to say so is to willfully misinterpret what
| I have said to an absurd extreme. My only commitment is
| to others, and myself, being able to decide how to end
| _our own_ lives, and no one else 's lives but our own, in
| a dignified manner, when our very existence entails
| suffering.
|
| It does not matter whether I "like the sound of it" or
| not. I am not currently seeking euthanasia, and I am not
| a doctor for someone who is, so rest assured that nobody
| is asking for my opinion. What matters is if the person
| whose life is going to end does, given that they are of
| sound mind to make such a judgement.
|
| I'm glad you will still try. We should always try to make
| others' lives better, to provide better lives instead of
| easier deaths. But sometimes we won't be able to.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| > The doctor should not react with horror in any case,
| because the doctor is a medical professional, not a paid
| actor in a pro-life advertisement, and I would certainly
| hope for him to behave as such.
|
| Indeed, and in 1910 progressives were saying similar
| things about sterilising the feeble minded. This is why
| the education system is so important. If you control the
| education system you get to decide what a professional
| should think. If there are professionals who disagree
| there's always disbarment.
| flandish wrote:
| There are times that I, a fighter of depression, and severely
| exhausted person think: if I lose my jobs (firefighter and
| software engineer) and things with my alcoholic wife trend
| toward my being unable to provide that which is required of me,
| as a man: financial security and a home... I'd just go. Just
| like the first episode of Futurama.
|
| But when I think those things, I realize that's a perm solution
| to "short" term albeit painful problems. I can do this. I got
| this.
|
| Then when it gets real bad, I remember Pascal's wager and if
| there really are people I can "see" again - like my first wife
| who died at 41, when I was 31... that little thought
| experiment/bit of faith saves me.
|
| It makes me sad, truly, to see that a bulk of the stories are
| related to finance. Finance for services that a caring nation
| would/should provide.
|
| Sigh.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| As an aside, how do you enjoy both of your careers? I, also a
| fighter of depression, was a firefighter (as well as many
| other things) in the military and now do software. I sort of
| miss the firefighting. How do you balance both?
| verdenti wrote:
| [dead]
| blfr wrote:
| Whenever people discussed euthanasia/suicide/MAiD online in the
| early oughts, it was always some corner case of a person
| completely paralyzed who could maybe blink. Slippery slope is
| no longer a fallacy, I guess.
| okasaki wrote:
| I once attended a memorial lecture on euthanasia at Oxford
| university. It started with euthanising people who are in
| great pain and are obviously going to die in the next 24
| hours, and by the end a psychologist in the audience was
| arguing for euthanising depressed teenagers.
|
| It felt like we hadn't just slipped down the slope, we
| basically rocketed into the ground. I will never support this
| movement.
| [deleted]
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| In US the government is allowed tk kill you - as apparently
| capital punishment is constitutional.
|
| Yet you are not allowed to kill yourself? I don't think
| that morally defensible
| loeg wrote:
| I think this might be historical revisionism. The idea that
| all conversations about assisted suicide 20 years ago were
| solely about the extremely disabled seems unlikely.
| sdiacom wrote:
| In a society that does not give any value to people's lives
| beyond their productive output, this will inevitably be an
| outcome of euthanasia. It merely provides a more dignified
| alternative to the existing paths to what we call "deaths of
| despair".
|
| People who were forced to starve, to subsist, to suffer
| empty, meaningless lives of toil and/or misery, now have an
| alternative to the continuation of their suffering. This does
| not mean the alternative is _good_ , but neither is its
| absence.
|
| One would hope that seeing how many people would rather
| choose to die in their own terms, as opposed to continuing to
| toil to enrich their landlords while they have to choose
| between food and heating, would steer us towards building a
| better society, one where people have not only freedom, but
| _autonomy_ over their own lives.
|
| And if it doesn't, well, then I suppose I'm glad we have an
| alternative to the society we're building.
| hikingsimulator wrote:
| The problem isn't maid per se. It's the utter failure of the
| welfare state from catching people sinking that's to blame.
| nvahalik wrote:
| > It's the utter failure of the welfare state from catching
| people sinking that's to blame.
|
| You can blame policies and programs, but in reality the
| issue has always been the value of human life.
|
| If human life isn't valuable then ending it is easy.
| hikingsimulator wrote:
| Life is ultimately valuable, that's why allowing people
| to have complete ownership over their own destiny is
| good.
|
| Forcing people to die in pain, misery, and utterly
| debased is a misplacement of values in my opinion.
|
| And this is often than not a symptom of capitalist
| valuation. The value of a life is too often viewed as
| economic [1].
|
| [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354671644_VA
| luing_L...
| nvahalik wrote:
| > pain, misery, and utterly debased
|
| I think this is because we often see pain and misery as
| "bad things" that must be avoided at all cost. This tends
| to lead to the assumption that people who have pain and
| misery in their lives don't have "good lives" and that
| the only real option then is to end it.
|
| Pain and misery have purpose and meaning. It can cause
| people to look beyond themselves. Some very beautiful
| things have come from people who were in deep pain.
| [deleted]
| empressplay wrote:
| It would be a cruel person indeed that would suggest that
| someone must suffer in agony because it suits their
| definition of morality.
| cutemonster wrote:
| Tthe health care system works like that sometimes.
|
| An old person had late stage skeleton cancer, extreme
| pain, drugs didn't help. He wanted to die. The health
| care system kept him alive against his will for as long
| as they could
|
| In that case I suppose the reason was instead covering
| one's own back.
| Jarwain wrote:
| It depends on the kind of pain, the kind of misery,
| doesn't it?
| cutemonster wrote:
| Temporary deep pain, that's one thing.
|
| Permanent never ending deep pain and you're old and just
| waiting to die, that's different.
|
| Or Alzheimers.
|
| > we often see pain and misery as "bad things" that must
| be avoided at all cost ... only real option then is to
| end it.
|
| I never heard anyone say anything remotely like that. I
| believe you're mistaken?
|
| Did you hear someone say that or you're hypothesizing
|
| With that said, the doctors in the article seem crazy,
| and this: "MAiD is the new society safety net"
| flanflan wrote:
| How does "valuing human life" help people who would be
| deaths of despair under a program like this? That just
| sounds like idealism.
| voisin wrote:
| Canada's welfare state is pretty good though. Healthcare is
| paid for. I would be interested to know what percentage of
| people using this maid program are doing so specifically
| for economic reasons.
| hikingsimulator wrote:
| Healthcare can encompass a lot of things. The NHS is
| supposedly good on paper but stereotypically it doesn't
| cover dental.
|
| Similarly, I meant welfare. I think it goes much beyond
| just healthcare. Unemployment insurance, state help to
| access the job market, disability help, etc.
| prirun wrote:
| It would be nice (though likely impossible) if everyone
| could have unlimited assistance to make their life
| manageable. But even if that were available, we need to
| keep in mind that others may not want to continue their
| life for various reasons. Just because it is
| theoretically possible to keep someone alive doesn't mean
| they want that. Living life feeling like a burden to
| others, being in constant pain, or drugged out completely
| to avoid pain is not a life everyone would choose to
| live.
|
| So if someone chooses to die, don't always look at that
| as a problem that could have been fixed with enough
| resources. Sometimes it's not fixable and we all need to
| compassionately accept that.
| hikingsimulator wrote:
| I usually find this reasoning to be fallacious. Sure this
| hypothetical person in an hypothetical setting might
| hypothetically exist in an hypothetical future. However,
| bringing it up doesn't provide value to the topic at
| hand.
|
| Your point doesn't refute what I said, or answer a point
| I made -- I never said it was always a problem. At best I
| said it very much was now.
| prirun wrote:
| You've apparently never been in a precarious health
| situation. I have, my mother has, and she chose to end
| her life because her daily living situation had
| deteriorated to the point where she could no longer take
| care of herself. And no amount of money or increased
| healthcare would have changed her circumstances.
| II2II wrote:
| > So if someone chooses to die, don't always look at that
| as a problem that could have been fixed with enough
| resources. Sometimes it's not fixable and we all need to
| compassionately accept that.
|
| There are different forms of acceptance. Yes, accept that
| some cases are not fixable. On the other hand, we should
| also be looking at what led to it being not fixable.
| There is a huge difference between seeking assisted
| suicide due to deteriorating physical and mental health
| from medical causes and seeking assisted suicide due to a
| lack of medical, psychological, and financial support
| from the outset.
| betaby wrote:
| "Canada's welfare state is pretty good though." It's not.
| Not at all! If you have a positive experience please
| share it. Also please provide a comparison, even
| anecdotal one.
| voisin wrote:
| My wife gave birth to our three children. Here are the
| costs:
|
| First child: $10.00 Second child: $10.00 Third child:
| $2.50
|
| These were the parking fees for 24 hours (there were no
| complications necessitating longer stays) in the two
| different cities she gave birth (the third child was born
| in a much more rural area with cheaper parking). I cannot
| stress enough that it cost us $0.00 beyond these amounts.
|
| These costs _include_ the use of a midwife in all three
| instances, with around 12 visits in advance of birth,
| then 2 midwives or 1 midwife and 2 nurses for the actual
| delivery, then 4-6 visits with the midwife post-birth,
| several of which were in our home.
|
| I would say that's a positive experience.
| [deleted]
| betaby wrote:
| I don't follow really. You are comparing $10 to what? I
| can't think about a lot of countries with 'paid'
| childbirth. Also while childbirth falls under the health
| care I wouldn't think about it if asked. Also, lumping
| parking there? Why? In the poor country I'm originally
| from ambulance riding is free, and yes, one additional
| person can ride it too. I would think about illness
| treating first and foremost if asked about health care.
| Your comment is just sad to me.
| voisin wrote:
| I think the majority of HN readers seem to be American,
| so the costs are drastically different where births can
| be 10s of thousands of dollars, even with insurance.
| That's why I brought it up.
|
| Any country that does free childbirth and ambulance rides
| and appointments with doctors and specialists, I would
| suggest has an excellent healthcare system, even if not
| perfect.
| empressplay wrote:
| My brother just had a quadruple bypass and he's
| recovering nicely. Cost $0.
| bmelton wrote:
| "Paid for" does not necessarily mean "good" just as
| "expensive" doesn't necessarily mean "bad."
|
| I'm not trying to opine on the Canadian health care
| system, as I've never experienced it nor given it much
| thought, but arguendo, if a part of the calculus for
| wellness is "is it cheaper to kill them?" that would be a
| deal-breaker.
|
| (Again, not saying that's what is happening, but I am
| always skeptical of the payor's ability to dictate the
| treatment for reasons you can infer)
|
| There's such a sliding scale of what is good and right
| here, and I think reasonable people can draw their lines
| at different places. Plot these as points on a line, and
| I think everyone will draw a line somewhere:
| * suicide should be allowed * medically assisted
| deaths are different from suicide and should be allowed
| * people assisting in death should be prosecuted *
| if it is hard for law enforcement to distinguish assisted
| suicide from murder, prosecutions are allowed * it
| is okay for your doctor to prescribe death * it is
| okay for the state to encourage death as the most cost
| efficient means of care * it is okay for the state
| to withhold care if it is too costly to administer
| * it is okay for the state to kill anyone they deem
| burdensome
|
| A definition of "good" may still contain characteristics
| that cross a line that a reasonable person has drawn, and
| I can't imagine how someone might convince another grown
| adult to draw their line somewhere other than what feels
| intuitive.
| linuxftw wrote:
| Incentives are different between state and private
| actors. The state has many tools at it's disposal to
| encourage or even force suicide (aka, murder in the
| latter case). The state is the ultimate arbiter of
| whether or not someone is mentally incapacitated, thus
| they can determine who lives and who dies.
|
| I can't think of anything more shameful than encouraging
| a non-terminal person to kill themselves.
| empressplay wrote:
| There is already a calculus of cost per annum applied to
| medical interventions in the Canadian health system --
| eg, we wouldn't give a heart transplant to a 96 year-old,
| generally speaking.
|
| Also, suicide hasn't been illegal in Canada for 50 years!
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| _eht wrote:
| >Slippery slope is no longer a fallacy, I guess.
|
| It is validly one of the 15 logical fallacies used to
| illustrate parts of arguments.
| [deleted]
| temp2022account wrote:
| That's amazing, if 5% of the entire world chose to die each
| year the average human lifespan would be 20
| quantified wrote:
| Depends on which 5%...
| xvedejas wrote:
| Even if it's the oldest 5%, _eventually_ you'd reach even
| lower than 20 because the population isn't growing at
| anything near a rate of 5% per year, and so you'd run out
| of people that old quickly. You'd see an exponential
| decline in the Canadian population, halving every 14 years.
| A -5% rate per year is an extremely unlikely thing to keep
| up for long
| flanflan wrote:
| Again this is 5% _of deaths_ not 5% of the population. So
| it's roughly in line with the number of people who die
| from random accidents in a given year.
| eloff wrote:
| It's 5% of deaths, not of the population.
| jimmyjazz14 wrote:
| Is this for real, it almost seems to shocking to be true.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Yes it is.
|
| I'm making preparations to leave the country real. It is
| essential for my health and waiting a month just to see a GP
| isn't the kind of place I want to reside. This is in the
| middle of a huge public healthcare crisis, for context [1]
|
| [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-
| system...
| ecpottinger wrote:
| [flagged]
| tsimionescu wrote:
| There are actually examples downthread of some doing just
| that - threatening patients that need constant care with
| torture unless they "voluntarily" apply to the program.
| voisin wrote:
| Every country seems to be having the same issues right now.
| I think it is the after effects of a once in a century
| pandemic that health systems were ill-prepared for, and
| isn't fully over (huge flu season repercussions if not
| interacting in the last few years)
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Thank you for pointing this out. In the UK the newspaper
| and TV rarely place our healthcare crisis in a wider
| context.
|
| I'm in favor of the right to access a painless assisted
| death, but society should be able to make a better offer
| to anyone who is not terminally ill.
| mabbo wrote:
| As a Canadian, I'm mostly okay with the system because I don't
| think it's changed much.
|
| My grandmother was nearing her end a few decades ago- very fast
| moving lung cancer- long before these options were legally
| available. She was terrified of being unable to breath, dying
| from that. Her doctor looked her in the eye and said "I promise
| you, you won't die that way if you don't want to". And she
| didn't.
|
| Medical assisted suicide for terminal patients has always
| existed, in the shadows. Now it's just legitimized and being done
| openly.
|
| I have some concerns over depressed people dying when they might
| be able to get treatment to help them. I'm sure there are cases
| of this happening. But I also think most of those people were
| going to commit suicide on their own anyway. Now it's being done
| safely, in the sense that a failed suicide can make things even
| worse.
|
| I'd like to see more being done to ensure these people truly have
| no other options, but I also know that I'm not qualified to pass
| judgement. I have faith that the doctors and medical system are
| doing what they think is best, and that they know more than I do.
| Amezarak wrote:
| People working in the system don't have the same faith. From
| the article:
|
| > In October 2020, the Office of the Parliamentary Budget
| Officer issued a report stating that MAiD would cut healthcare
| costs by over $66 million. In 2017, Aaron Trachtenberg, a
| research fellow and a doctor at the University of Manitoba, and
| Braden Manns, a health economist and nephrologist at the
| University of Calgary, published a paper predicting that MAiD
| could slash healthcare costs by as much as $100 million yearly.
|
| > "I do worry MAiD is an easy solution to bed shortages and the
| terrible lack of resources patients are facing," Dr. Ramona
| Coelho, a family physician in a suburb of Toronto, told me. She
| added that "the perverse disincentive that exists for
| administrators and governments with providing MAiD rather than
| care and resources to live can present a real danger to the
| lives of vulnerable or marginalized persons."
|
| There have also been reports of medical staff pressuring
| patients to sign up for MAiD to save the government money.
|
| https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/canadian-man-assisted-suicide-...
|
| > "They asked if I want an assisted death. I don't. I was told
| that I would be charged $1,800 per day [for hospital care]. I
| have $2 million worth of bills. Nurses here told me that I
| should end my life. That shocked me."
|
| In the US, "medical error" is the third leading cause of death.
| Nurses and doctors are regularly fired or sued for serious
| wrongdoing. There's good ones and bad ones, competent ones and
| incompetent ones. Every profession is a mixed bag. I am sure it
| is no different in Canada.
|
| You can never, ever, trust a system. You can trust individuals.
| mcrae wrote:
| I'm not sure if the economic angle is convincing, since
| Canada spends over $300B a year on healthcare [0]. Are you
| suggesting MAID was introduced to save "as much as" 0.03% of
| healthcare expenditure?
|
| [0] https://www.cihi.ca/en/news/covid-19-expected-to-push-
| canada...
| LawTalkingGuy wrote:
| No, it was intended to save a lot more.
|
| Like Civil Forfeiture, the medical system should never see
| a single cent "saved" via suicide. Because otherwise, yes,
| we're saying we think they'd optimize for it.
| carapace wrote:
| _The economic angle is convincing only to sociopaths._
|
| Sane people don't kill people to save money.
| loeg wrote:
| > Sane people don't kill people to save money.
|
| Of course, that isn't true in the abstract. Some number
| of people die in the US annually for lack of government
| spending on healthcare, and presumably we could spend
| less and kill more people, or vice versa.
|
| Government healthcare systems are kind of fundamentally a
| tradeoff between spending and saving lives.
| josephcsible wrote:
| There's a difference between killing someone and not
| saving someone's life.
| MockObject wrote:
| On a spreadsheet, they look quite the same.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Does this mean you should always pull the lever in the
| trolley problem?
| loeg wrote:
| That seems like a philosophical argument.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Sure, but believing them to be the same is also a
| philosophical argument.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| I would suggest that, just as Canada decided they had to
| remove the "reasonably foreseeable death" criterion in
| response to a court decision, they'll find some financial
| pressure in the future that forces them to expand MAiD
| programs. It's likely to sound less like "we ought to kill
| some people to save money" and more like "here's a great
| revenue-neutral idea for expanding access to the important
| MAiD program".
|
| If handing out lethal injections is considered to be no big
| deal, I don't see how the Canadian healthcare system could
| avoid these pressures. You can't make just one deal with
| the devil.
| ttul wrote:
| No, this is simply not a thing just because the NYPost wrote
| about it.
| grammers wrote:
| > Medical assisted suicide for terminal patients has always
| existed, in the shadows. Now it's just legitimized and being
| done openly.
|
| That's very good. My grandmother tried to kill herself with
| sleeping pills because she was desperate and no legal option
| for help existed back then. She was not successful and the end
| wasn't nice. It's nothing anyone should go through.
| eikenberry wrote:
| [flagged]
| carapace wrote:
| Friendly reminder not to take medical advice from randos on
| the Internet.
| eikenberry wrote:
| Looks like those who think they know better are enforcing
| the stigma by flagging a simple attempt to help spread
| the word about a good way to commit suicide. Bully for
| them and their goal of furthering human suffering.
| tejohnso wrote:
| Consider reading The Peaceful Pill Handbook for a pretty
| thorough overview of the options.
| eikenberry wrote:
| Just trying to help get this info out there. When I
| researched suicide after my father's death it was super
| hard to find good information. I eventually found out
| about this so am trying to spread the word to those
| looking.
| stefantalpalaru wrote:
| [dead]
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| HN's attitude on this stuff is pretty weird to me.
|
| Articles about Canada's assisted dying program have been
| repeatedly posted here, and all of them seem to be quite clearly
| pushing a non-neutral agenda on the issue. The thing that most
| clearly stands out in this example is the heavy focus on anecdote
| and the underhanded use of context-free numbers meant to sound
| shocking, and you can see the effort working in the comments.
|
| I'm pretty surprised, because I'd've imagined assisted dying
| programs would be one of the most embraced things by the "soft
| libertarian" sort of crowd attracted by this site. It would be
| nice to see articles that actually explored what was happening a
| bit more; there was a good example in The Guardian a couple of
| years ago that seemed like an interesting exploration of the
| issue, rather than a cart-before-the horse article like this
| https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/18/death-on-demand...
| kneebonian wrote:
| The recent rash of discussion around it has not been around
| assisted suicide in general but specifically on how Canada has
| implemented it, which is a different discussion.
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| It's not really a different discussion, no - one of the first
| things an article that was actually interested in this issue
| would do would be to contextualise the Canadian
| implementation with respect to the rest of the world. Are
| there thing that make it noticeably worse, or more subject to
| abuse? There might be - but we'll never find out from
| articles like this which go out of their way to avoid
| questioning that.
| jscipione wrote:
| [flagged]
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