[HN Gopher] The FCC can finally hammer predatory prison phone ca...
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The FCC can finally hammer predatory prison phone call companies
Author : toomuchtodo
Score : 85 points
Date : 2022-12-26 14:40 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (techcrunch.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com)
| bannedbybros wrote:
| [dead]
| Overtonwindow wrote:
| "The prison system we have is in dire need of reformation in
| general..."
|
| The last line I found to be the most important. I taught reading
| and writing in both a state, and federal prison. The problem we
| have in America is not a rehabilitation issue, but a retribution
| issue.
|
| In my opinion, the perception of prison for the fast majority of
| Americans is a place for retribution, not rehabilitation.
|
| Until we change the mindset of prison as a place where someone
| goes to be rehabilitated, and not just punished, then maybe we
| can start thinking of more proactive, long-term strategies to
| reduce recidivism.
|
| Until then, we are just warehousing inmates until their next
| recycle through society, and back to prison.
| 33955985 wrote:
| I agree with you, and to my mind the only way to change that
| thinking is to abolish the death penalty _and_ life
| imprisonment, and to make the maximum prison sentence 25 years.
|
| Then the incentives change really quickly. But until then...
| most of the industry will see the ability to lock someone up
| forever as more money guaranteed to the small towns gutted by
| globalization
| sokoloff wrote:
| Are we optimizing for the law-abiding or the law-breaking?
|
| If someone does <insert pre-medidated, heinous thing>,
| do/should I support letting them automatically rejoin society
| in a maximum of 25 years?
|
| I'm not saying there aren't problems with our current system,
| but I do believe that some tiny slice of humans have
| unfortunately proven themselves, via their own actions, to be
| completely incapable of living among free society and society
| is right to forcibly exclude them from doing so until/unless
| that situation changes. This might be only 1 in 100K, but
| that's still thousands of people in the US alone and society
| has to do something with them.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| What GP is saying is that death penalty and life sentences
| don't incentivize society for rehabilitation. The
| implications here is that if society was faced with the
| fact that they have 25 years to fix the person, that's a
| much greater incentive for rehabilitation than death or
| life.
| gambiting wrote:
| Again, other countries have already came up with solutions
| to this - in Norway maximum sentence is 25 years, but if
| you are given it, it's subject to automatic review at the
| end - if you still aren't rehabilitated, it just gets
| extended. For instance Anders Breivik was sentenced as such
| - and the chances of him actually ever leaving prison are
| close to zero, despite Norway having a maximum time limit
| on sentencing.
|
| (I can also see the argument as to why this is unusually
| cruel punishment - you are never sure how long your
| imprisonment will last, but I think it's the best
| compromise if you don't want to have a life sentence as a
| thing.)
|
| Also if someone asks - how is that different than life
| sentence with possible parole after 25 years - because in
| this setup, the state has to argue why someone needs to be
| imprisoned for longer, instead of the prisoner arguing why
| they should be released. I believe this is much healthier
| for the whole system.
| xwdv wrote:
| The caveat is that many criminals in those countries
| don't have the capacity for violence that American
| criminals have.
|
| Also, it's useless the balk at long sentences because
| often American prisoners do not end up serving the full
| sentence for various reasons.
|
| And as you mentioned, those "maximums" aren't true
| maximums anyway, so what's the point? Better to be
| upfront.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>The caveat is that many criminals in those countries
| don't have the capacity for violence that American
| criminals have.
|
| I literally mentioned Breivik in my example though? He is
| probably the worst of the worst and the system knows how
| to deal with him in a way that makes sense, without
| having to create special arrangements or exceptions for
| him. Can you name _any_ American criminal for whom this
| kind of setup wouldn 't be sufficient for?
| sokoloff wrote:
| You start with "again"; where was the previous?
| gambiting wrote:
| There wasn't, sorry - it's a weird habit I have when
| arguing online.
| hammock wrote:
| >Are we optimizing for the law-abiding or the law-breaking?
|
| The entire paradigm shift for retribution -> rehabilitation
| is that the law-abider and the law-breaker are (or can be)
| the SAME people. The distinction you are making falls away.
|
| We are all born of the same nature, capable of doing evil.
| Does that make us all evil people? Separate the sin from
| the sinner, and create space for repentance
| sokoloff wrote:
| I'm not interested in retribution, but I am highly
| interested in reducing future crimes against members of
| society.
|
| If rehabilitation fosters that more effectively than
| exclusion after an episode of law-breaking, I'm
| interested.
|
| Data that I've seen so far does not suggest that, but
| showing "released prisoners have a lower or equal rate of
| subsequent law-breaking than the average member of
| society" would be extremely compelling.
| hammock wrote:
| Crime happens inside of prison just as is happens outside
| of prison. If you affirm the innate and equal dignity of
| every human life (assuming here), why optimize for law-
| abiding outside a prison to the detriment of law-abiding
| inside prison?
| sokoloff wrote:
| I support enforcing laws both inside and outside prison,
| but would not be at all surprised to find the base rate
| of law-breaking inside a prison was higher, giving that
| the reason prison exists is to segregate proven past
| committers-of-crime away from free society under a
| premise that they are likely to do so again.
|
| We should work to reduce that in-prison crime, but not at
| the crime-risk expense of the never-convicted. Perhaps
| stricter law enforcement inside prisons is needed if
| you're saying that the reforming-to-ongoing-law-abiding
| within are being victimized by on-going criminal
| activity.
| nkrisc wrote:
| > If someone does <insert pre-medidated, heinous thing>,
| do/should I support letting them automatically rejoin
| society in a maximum of 25 years?
|
| My understanding of places that don't do life sentences is
| that at the end of the term the prisoner is re-evaluated to
| determine if it's still in the best of interest of the
| society to keep them incarcerated or not.
|
| For example, in Norway I believe that the maximum sentence
| is 21 years with the possibility for extensions if they are
| still deemed a threat.
|
| While there are certainly people who likely do need to be
| separated from society forever, I don't think _everyone_
| currently serving a life sentence necessarily falls into
| that category.
|
| My spouse has a relative serving a life sentence for a
| double murder when he was young, nearly 30 years ago. By
| all accounts he's a very different person now and has been
| rehabilitated. But he'll never get out, despite that and
| despite having a support network were he ever released.
| Does he, in particular, deserve freedom? I don't actually
| know him well enough nor the details of his crime to say
| for myself, but it certainly seems like the US is keeping a
| lot of people locked up even when it might be better for
| society as a whole to reintegrate them as productive
| members.
| shockeychap wrote:
| I won't argue that the existing system isn't broken. But
| elimination of life imprisonment and capped sentences of 25
| years for _all_ crimes is just absurd.
|
| What about Dennis Rader? He murdered numerous people
| throughout the 70s and 80s. The details of the Otero family
| are the kind of thing they don't even write about in fiction.
| Should he be allowed freedom before he dies? Should he be
| free today because of how old his crimes were?
|
| What about Jeffrey Dahmer? (I realize he's dead, but that was
| at the hand of another inmate, and he'd still be alive and
| well if not for that.) He would be walking free today as a 62
| year old if there was a 25 year maximum.
|
| Furthermore, who's going to assume responsibility when people
| like this are released and then kill again to satisfy the
| urge within them?
|
| Like I said, I won't argue that what he have needs
| correction, and I agree with the focus on rehabilitation, but
| there ARE other things that matter - such as appropriate
| punishment and protection of society - that still need to be
| factored in.
| LightHugger wrote:
| It works really well in norway, at the end of the sentence
| if they are an extreme public risk, such as in those cases,
| it's extended. But it's very important to have the
| automatic "we need to extend this" rather than the
| expectation it's a life sentence built in from the start of
| serving it.
| Sevii wrote:
| Fundamentally, prison is about preventing prisoners from
| committing additional crimes against the populace. We can talk
| about retribution and rehabilitation but those are
| justifications for why we used x method instead of y method.
| Prior to the 20th century we couldn't afford to keep people in
| prison for a long time so criminals were simply executed. Now
| that we can afford to keep them alive in prison we lean towards
| life sentences for heinous crimes.
|
| Choosing long prison sentences instead of executions has
| externalities. One of which is that now street gangs owe fealty
| to prison gangs.
|
| People don't go to prison to be rehabilitated and never will.
| Prison is solely to keep convicted criminals far away from
| normal people. If rehabilitation is going to happen it not
| going to be at prisons.
| feet wrote:
| Maybe you should read about the penal system in Nordic
| countries
| _trampeltier wrote:
| In every counrty, exept the US, criminals mostly come out of
| a prison as a better person. In no other country a prison is
| just to lock people away. In the US a prisoner is just a kind
| of perpetum mobile, a unlimited money machine.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>People don't go to prison to be rehabilitated and never
| will
|
| Yeah that's complete nonsense and we have lots of data that
| proves otherwise. US is really a massive outlier there
| amongst developed countries.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Shortened title from "The FCC can finally hammer predatory prison
| phone call companies, thanks to just-passed bill.", which was too
| long.
|
| Mentioned bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-
| congress/senate-bill/154...
|
| Ameelio.org show HN thread (as they're a non profit in this
| space): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042558
| runnerup wrote:
| Not until they fill the FCC position that's been open since Trump
| left office. FCC is pretty deadlocked as long as congress won't
| vote for the nominated replacement.
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| There was some "how to survive your time in prison" advice for
| Elizabeth Holmes that I read somewhere, that pertained to this:
|
| Your time on the phone is strictly limited, and it's illegal to
| buy someone else's. So another convict will "helpfully" offer to
| trade his for something you have, and then rat you out. Don't do
| it!
|
| After they report you, the prison guards offer you the choice of
| time in solitary, or transfer to a higher-security prison.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Yeah no. If dude ratted you out he's the one that's going to
| have to check himself into the SHU. And if you get caught you
| just lose your phone privileges for like a month. Now if you
| get caught with a cellphone that is considered an escape
| attempt, and yeah, your points go up, you get a new charge, and
| you get shipped to a higher security yard so probably don't do
| that even if you really want to facetime with your gf.
| justinclift wrote:
| > if you get caught with a cellphone that is considered an
| escape attempt
|
| That sounds really bizarre. :(
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I doubt this is the case universally in American prisons
| given that on the state level there will be rules per state
| and at least different rules per security level. It may be
| the case for Federal rules - don't know.
|
| Finally depending on system there may be a great deal of
| leeway for the warden to set rules on their individual
| prison.
| rootw0rm wrote:
| so much this. i've shared phone time plenty of times,
| standing right there at the phone so the guy can read my
| inmate id off my bracelet. i've honestly never even heard of
| someone ratting someone out for this. if anything the guards
| wouldn't give a shit because they don't want to be bothered
| with the paperwork. (unless they have a particular grudge
| against someone)
|
| but yah, being a rat means extreme violence every yard you
| get bounced to until you end up in SHU. there's a perverse
| sense of satisfaction from telling the guards that your race
| can't protect someone anymore.
| hippich wrote:
| What another convict gets out of ratting you out?
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Usually ratting out fellow inmates gets you bonus points for
| "good behavior", meaning better chances of getting out on
| parole or a reduced sentence. Basically, you're being an arse
| for your own gain - which is the reason why cooperating with
| the wardens usually makes you the lowest of the lowest on the
| rungs, even below pedophiles and child/wife beaters.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Huh? You only get bonus points if you do something big like
| help build a case against someone and I think that's like
| an actual program that you have to join in advance not just
| be like 'hey I found this out'. They can't be bothered to
| care enough about this petty stuff, in fact it's my opinion
| they encourage a lot of petty scams and hustles as an
| outlet for people's energy. Source: ran the food service
| warehouse and cellie ran a ticket.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| At least here in Germany, your behavior while in prison
| definitely matters for early release, parole or commuted
| sentencing.
|
| (Source: good friend of mine served five years for
| dealing industrial quantities of pot)
| josephcsible wrote:
| > cooperating with the wardens usually makes you the lowest
| of the lowest on the rungs, even below pedophiles and
| child/wife beaters.
|
| If they really believe that cooperating with wardens is
| worse than sexually abusing children, then I have zero
| sympathy for them and zero desire to see their living
| conditions improve.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I bet it's more that it's something you're doing _right
| now_.
|
| Also it's more personal.
| hippich wrote:
| And what warden gains from catching such person? Is there
| just warden's personal satisfaction in it, or such
| diligence encouraged by the prison system?
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| (Disclosure: never been in, although I know someone who was)
|
| I imagine it's not so much as _actually_ ratting you out as,
| "now I have something on you, so do this for me. Or you'll be
| sorry."
| nimbius wrote:
| Like most agencies the FCC's emphasis is "Federal." I used to
| have a ton of respect and even admiration for the FCC when I was
| first getting an amateur radio license, but ever since the net
| neutrality fiasco and Ajit Pai's complete and total lack of any
| sense of structure or objective during his tenure for the
| organization aside from cronyism and smug apathy, its just
| another appendage to me.
|
| Things like phone spam should have been curtailed 35 years ago,
| and spam texts are still a huge problem nobody seems to be able
| to fix either. Prison phone call companies will likely see a few
| token wrist-slaps and a moderate reform effort die on the vine as
| evidence the system "works" but ive no faith, none at all, that a
| system to which private capital and bureaucrats alike reap so
| much profit from is going to see a big change.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| from wrote:
| I highly recommend reading https://commsrisk.com (no
| affiliation) if this stuff interests you. Robocalls are up
| month over month even with STIR/SHAKEN
| (https://robocallindex.com/history/time). Essentially, caller
| ID spoofing is just a symptom of the issue, the truth is that
| anyone anywhere in the world can get a US number in any area
| code and start making calls and as long as that doesn't change
| robocalls will increase. Even if there is a VOIP crackdown a
| bunch of rogue "carriers" will pop up like they do in Africa
| where they put a bunch of prepaid sim cards in a box and use
| them to terminate calls.
|
| Lots of articles like https://commsrisk.com/calls-with-stir-
| shaken-c-attestation-a..., https://commsrisk.com/us-says-no-
| need-for-telcos-to-pay-3-3m..., https://commsrisk.com/what-is-
| the-us-regulator-really-doing-.... I don't think things will
| get notably better anytime soon.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| Ideally they would give us every single hop, and we could
| just block anything we don't like. I don't want to receive
| any calls, texts, voicemails from any VOIP number or any
| number that has a hop outside of the US (or maybe Canada). I
| have family outside the US, but we communicate using other
| technology.
|
| If there is any provider at any point that drops any of the
| info, they should be blocked as well. Just as I am able to
| subscribe to uBlock Origin lists to automatically online ads,
| I should be able to subscribe to lists of malicious providers
| to automatically stop spammers
|
| But even using the current tech, why is anything less than
| A-grade attestation reaching my phone? As a user of a phone,
| I do not care if some sketchy phone company can't get their
| shit together; in fact I consider that to be a good indicator
| that such a company is a source of spam. Why let them contact
| me at all?
| from wrote:
| See https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt. There is a
| debate to be had over every spam mitigation technique. For
| instance banning VOIP numbers would prevent most 2fa codes
| from being delivered and has a high false positive rate in
| general. What you are talking about with the hops is called
| "traceback" but is generally rather complicated due to the
| ways call routing works in practice and is often done
| manually.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| I think email and phone spam differ, in part because
| there is a semi-centralized authority setup for phone
| calls, as the FCC and other govt organizations sort of
| control it along with a small handful of real consumer
| phone companies (in the US that's just Verizon, ATT,
| T-mobile). And I think email spam is basically a non-
| issue for most users nowadays, it's super easy to filter
| and ignore emails in aggregate.
|
| Your 2FA thing is a good point, but perhaps they could be
| allowed to do SMS and nothing else. Or I could
| temporarily deactivate it. The point is, users have no
| control now.
|
| Tracebacks are definitely something phone companies are
| attempting (or claim to be able to do so). If some
| companies don't cooperate, ideally those calls would
| never complete. If they make phone calls more expensive,
| I consider that to be a good thing at this point.
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