[HN Gopher] Warming up your car before driving in cold weather c...
___________________________________________________________________
Warming up your car before driving in cold weather can damage the
engine (2016)
Author : ourmandave
Score : 35 points
Date : 2022-12-25 18:07 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.businessinsider.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.businessinsider.com)
| pshirshov wrote:
| You won't be able to drive at all without warming up in Siberia
| at -42.
|
| In fact it's very hard to start the engine from cold state.
|
| So everyone who was able to afford a pre-start heater were
| installing them. And those who were not were hooking up auto
| start timers (usualy paired with a crappy aftermarket alarm) so
| the cars were constantly starting in low temperatures (-30 and
| lower).
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| In the North Slope oil fields in Alaska, they just keep the
| trucks running 24/7 in the winter time.
| Glawen wrote:
| During my trip in northern Siberia, while sipping my morning
| coffee, I saw a guy start up his lada niva by -40 the old
| fashioned way. He opened the engine bay, put a rug on his
| engine, took a blowtorch and lit it under the engine. He heated
| the engine oil pan and gearbox for 10 min, and then started his
| engine with a battery he brought with him.
| pshirshov wrote:
| That's the unsafe and a very inconvenient way. So lot less
| frequent than various heaters (autonomous pre-start ones,
| electric ones and the timers).
| Glawen wrote:
| Indeed but the aftermarket webasto cost quite some money.
| The guy was a pensioner who probably used his car once a
| month
| pshirshov wrote:
| There are still electric heaters which plug into the
| temperature sensor hole and they are dirt cheap. But yep,
| some people still do all that open flame crap.
| sammalloy wrote:
| Pretty sure I saw that video on YouTube/Reddit.
| devwastaken wrote:
| Oil is more viscous in colder temps, especially at 0f and below.
| The oil needs to rise from the pan and up into the pistons, the
| piston seals assume a certain viscosity of oil. You want to have
| as little stress as possible until the oil reaches even just room
| temp. While revving the engine up won't immediately destroy it,
| that heat does not transfer from the pistons to all of the oil
| simultaneously.
|
| Synthetic oils have a wider temp range where they maintain
| viscosity and lubricating properties. Of anything, always
| recommend good quality full synthetic oils for cold climates.
| pugworthy wrote:
| The title needs clarification that this is for ICE cars... That
| is those with internal combustion engines.
|
| 10-15 years from now this kind of article is going to be somewhat
| anachronistic sounding.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| I'm sure the cited expert really is an expert, but this article
| fails miserably at conveying any cohesive understanding from them
| to you. It's full of conclusions that don't follow from their
| leading statements.
|
| My understanding about warming up an engine before putting load
| on it had nothing to do with fuel or power steering fluid, it was
| about thermal expansion of all the machined parts that suffer
| wear if they are run under load while they are loose-fitting from
| being cold. This is a thing even in summer and merely worse in
| winter.
|
| This article barely talks about this and doesn't say anything
| intelligible but just says "stress" from stepping on it right
| away.
|
| Maybe that issue also no longer exists on modern engines, but
| nothing in this article explains that.
|
| Mostly everything this says about why idling is supposedly bad,
| applies to operating the thing at all, idling or not. The
| conclusion would be "don't use your car at all in winter"
|
| Well, if you're going to use it at all, then you're already doing
| the damage, so you might as well be comfortable and have an
| easier time clearing the windows. The device only exists in the
| first place to serve you.
| nickff wrote:
| I work on the repairs side of this industry (diagnostic tools),
| and have come to the conclusion that while the thermal
| expansion is an issue, it's probably not the largest or most
| fundamental one.
|
| When an engine idles (with no load), it produces relatively
| little heat. Comparatively, an engine running faster, under
| load produces much more heat. The engine will warm up more
| quickly and less evenly when loaded, likely leading to thermal
| stress, and possible mismatched thermal expansion. On the other
| hand, modern lubricants are very good at handling different
| temperatures.
|
| The other thing to consider is that the engine is only one part
| of the vehicle, and various other components of the drivetrain
| may actually suffer more thermal stress from the idling than
| from immediate driving.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| > On the other hand, modern lubricants are very good at
| handling different temperatures.
|
| I think this is the key difference between now and what used
| to be.
|
| Also suspect modern engines are more carefully designed to
| handle thermal expansion.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Anecdotally, my transmission doesn't shift as well if I drive
| it right away in the cold.
| mikrotikker wrote:
| Yea on cold mornings I have to skip 2nd gear and go straight
| to 3rd, since I can't get into 2nd gear the first few times.
| willnonya wrote:
| Absolutely. The risk of putting load on the engine before the
| moving parts and oil have reached operating temps is far
| greater than the threat of tiny amounts of gasoline washing
| residual oil from the cylinder walls or thinning the oil.
|
| The only risk described here applies to prolonged idling only
| and is a long term risk mitigated by reasonable elwarmuo and
| oil changes. The short term risk is the rotating assembly and
| value train is far more immediate.
|
| Fuel injection has convinced people that they can just jump in
| a cold car, fire it up and be fine. Doing so, especially in
| extreme cold is just incredibly damaging.
| nickff wrote:
| I work in this industry (designing tools for automotive
| diagnostics), and have heard many arguments either way WRT
| warming up engines; I do not understand yours.
| avereveard wrote:
| I have the same recommendation on my car user manual, don't
| warm the engine, but take off after start up and take it slow
| for a few minutes until the engine water moves off the base.
|
| I know one of the engineers that worked at the car design and
| when questioned, he explained (going off memory here) that
| people used to warm the engine, then started driving normally,
| and while the engine is hot, the trasmission and differentials
| aren't, but you don't have a good way of warming them up while
| standing still, so drive off slowly and carefully without
| asking full torque from your engine, and it will help warm the
| whole thing.
| MadScott wrote:
| Oil pressure seems to be left out of the conversation - oil-
| starved journal bearings can be bad news if loaded immediately.
| SOP in piston-engine aircraft is to get the oil temperature and
| pressure "in the green" before doing run-ups.
|
| There's a pretty good description here:
| https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/779/journal-bearin...
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Piston Engine aircraft are probably not the right example to
| use.
|
| They are almost exclusively air/oil-cooled, low-rpm engines,
| and a majority of them have designs dating back 50+ years.
| bombcar wrote:
| Some vehicles have oil heaters to get the oil to operating
| temperature before even cranking.
|
| These engines are often large enough to park a car inside,
| however.
| bluedino wrote:
| Engine block heaters and oil pan heaters are the norm in
| the north. Plugs into an electrical outlet.
| willis936 wrote:
| My 2018 car (gasoline, turbocharged, direct injection) has
| coolant and oil temp readouts. The increase in coolant temp
| from a cold start leads the oil temp by a few minutes
| (exact time is dependent on ambient temperature and load
| profile).
|
| Once the oil temp starts to get above 150F it very quickly
| gets to the operating temp (220F), so I view that as the
| point that it's okay to go above 3000 RPM.
|
| If there are oil heaters then they must be far away from
| the oil reservoir temperature sensor and only have a local
| effect. As you say, that sounds like a feature for very
| large engines. It's probably a good practice to be gentle
| to car engines with cold oil.
| bluedino wrote:
| Most engines will have a lower redline until the engine
| has reached a certain temp
| winrid wrote:
| Street cars have been using coolant/oil heat exchangers
| to bring oil up to temp faster and regulate its
| temperature under load since at least 1999 (source: VW's
| 1.8T, AEB and AWP motors).
|
| https://store.ngpracing.com/acm-oil-cooler-heat-
| exchanger-1-...
| pvaldes wrote:
| If your oil is too thick to spread accurately, the problem is
| that you are using an incorrect oil, not that your motor is cold.
| Oil --must-- work even when is cold.
|
| If your area reaches -40F in winter you will need a "0 Winter 30"
| oil grade; or 0W/30, that is more expensive but very thin so it
| will not freeze
|
| 5W/30 will work until -31F
|
| 10W/40 will not freeze until 0F. This is the standard grade used
| for both winter and summer in many temperate areas
|
| If you use the 15W grade for tropical areas in cold places, the
| oil could be too thick, will freeze at night and lose their
| properties. If you start the car without warming it first, you
| will probably damage your engine and your oil pump will suffer.
|
| Change it ASAP to the lower viscosity grade that could be managed
| by your engine (or keep the car in a warmed garage until spring.
| Your car, your choice). Check the owner manual.
|
| A too thin oil will lubricate worse. If you live in hot climates,
| 10W and 15W will perform better in summer
|
| Diesel vehicles will care of warming the diesel before to start
| and will refuse it unless the diesel is warm enough. If starting
| the car at morning takes ages, some of your glow plugs are
| probably broken and will need to be replaced.
|
| This can be a delicate operation. If stuck don't force it, go to
| a professional with the correct tools. Old plugs can be fragile
| and if they break inside the engine, it will be a very expensive
| mistake.
| nomel wrote:
| > Oil --must-- work even when is cold.
|
| "Must work when cold" is not the same as "must work at load
| when cold". Most modern cars have a limited redline, until the
| engine warms, because of this.
| kosherhurricane wrote:
| I claim no expertise, as this is the internet and my credentials
| are entirely virtual and imaginary.
|
| * Business insider is often a click bait.
|
| * Taxis and Police cars idle all day. That's fine because their
| engine is warm. We're talking about damage being done at cold
| start and idle.
|
| * The only time the engine is without much lubricant is when it
| is cranked.
|
| * When the engine has started and running, oil is forced into
| different places that need it. Viscosity is not optimal, but it's
| good enough, as long as it's been changed appropriately, and not
| already a sludge.
|
| * At idle, the oil pump is at its lowest output. The fast idle at
| cold start mitigates that. Fast idle also warms up the engine
| faster than normal idle. Driving it will give it good output.
|
| * Engines do warm up slower when idling (<1k rpm) vs driven right
| away (2k+ rpm).
|
| Taken all this together, it's fine to start the engine when cold,
| let it idle for 30 seconds, and start driving.
|
| It's also fine to start the engine cold, and let it idle and warm
| up while you scrape the windshield and make a cup of coffee.
|
| Millions of people do both of the above, and their cars are fine.
| Ignore Business Insider, and maintain your cars as per its
| manual.
| WalterBright wrote:
| The best thing you can do to make your engine last is change the
| oil regularly.
| Glawen wrote:
| Engine oil gets a lot of cargo cult on automotive forums.
| Personally, I never saw an engine die because it missed the
| schedule by some thousands km. I wait until my car tells me it
| needs an oil change, and then I wait a bit more :).
| WalterBright wrote:
| I've never had an engine wear out on me and start burning
| oil.
| UncleEntity wrote:
| The manufacturers say change the oil every 3000 miles (or
| whatever), the oil commercials say it is good up to 100,000
| miles, split the difference is what I say.
|
| My last vehicle did have a bit of a valve train knock
| though...
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| But what about for a Diesel engine?
| rolph wrote:
| yes thats a big hole in the article. diesel is oil, its a wet
| fuel, like gasoline [vs propane]. diesels here in AK usually
| run with winter additive or ether start.
|
| the best bet really is block heater, its built in most vehicles
| here, but there are "stick on hot pads" you can put on your
| oilpan. these are high heat, you can cook an egg on one if you
| wait a little longer
| lazide wrote:
| Without winter mix, diesel also congeals at low temps. Then
| you're in deep trouble haha.
| smitty1e wrote:
| My little TDI needs some serious amps compared to a tegular gas
| engine.
| LadyCailin wrote:
| Very little information in this "article".
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we've changed the url
| https://www.fleetmanagementweekly.com/yes-warming-up-your-ca...
| to the thing it points to, which is longer if not better.
|
| Edit: ok, that one
| (https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/weather-
| verif...) didn't work. Switching to the URL suggested in the
| comments below. Thanks!
| aidos wrote:
| Getting access denied. Sorry dang, this is not a great way to
| spend Christmas (thanks for the ceaseless moderation!).
| timmaxw wrote:
| Following the chain of links, I think this article is the
| original source: https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-
| idling-your-car-i... It's a much more detailed article,
| including some specific claims about the science.
| dang wrote:
| Changed to that one now. Thanks!
| zekrioca wrote:
| Yes, this one is open and with more details that make some
| sense. Idling for 5-15 minutes is too long anyway, unless
| you have a 80's car.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| This, from 2016, seems to be the original post and seems to
| be fairly well written, if surprising and controversial
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-idling-your-
| car-i...
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we'll try that one - thanks!
| windmark wrote:
| I can't access the updated link and just get:
|
| Access Denied
|
| You don't have permission to access
| "http://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/weather-
| verify..." on this server. Reference
| #18.51d1202.1671993608.7d094d83
| amluto wrote:
| Nope, not actually better -- keep clicking, and see my other
| comment. If you actually follow the links, you find the
| opposite opinion! Go Internet!
| leoh wrote:
| I wonder if a solution to this problem could be channeling
| gasoline through a convoluted pattern of tubes adjacent to a
| heating element
| rolph wrote:
| here in alaska we use block heaters as a must have.
|
| Cold oil doesnt recirculate very well, of course a chronicaly
| cold engine, with cold oil, is going to display excessive wear.
|
| so, why "warmup" a vehicle?
|
| two parts...
|
| 1] old model vehicles dont have digital engine control its
| electromechanical.
|
| cold carburetors run out of tune, unless you have auto choke and
| idle tuning. so the block needs to be warm for efficiency and
| normal function.
|
| 2] it gets cold in the cabin of a alaskan vehicle no matter what
| make/model, as in deep negatives and hoar frost all over. most
| humans dont do well in this, and have to warmup the cabin to
| function outside of hypothermia. this is afew levels beyond
| scraping frost of a window.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Yep. And as noted before, up on the Slope they just run the
| vehicles 24/7 in the winter time.
| barbazoo wrote:
| I love how the examples are always Alaskan winters but you see
| people idling their car to warm up everywhere and often in
| moderate temperatures.
|
| For most, it's a comfort thing and not necessary.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| If you're even using a car at all, then you have already
| decided that comfort and convenience are necessary.
| mustafabisic1 wrote:
| Now, if only we could get some winter in places where we're
| normally deep into winter by now :(
|
| Bosnia and Herzegovina here
| sschueller wrote:
| "peratures can shorten the life of your engine by stripping away
| oil from the engine's pistons and cylinders -- two critical
| components that help your engine run."
|
| Nonsense, if the oil pump and engine are built correctly and
| working as intended this does not cause librication not to work
| correctly. How many cabs would die early because they are idling
| in traffic all day? Your personal cars engine is not a formula
| one cars engine that survives one weekend of driving.
| jcampbell1 wrote:
| I worked at the engine plant in the early 2000s that made the
| 4.6l v8 that was in Crown Victoria for cop cars and cabs. The
| cop/cab version of the engine was different in that it had a
| highly polished timing chain for exactly this reason.
| gooseyman wrote:
| This is super interesting as a person who is interested in
| cars, but by no means a mechanic.
|
| What does polishing the timing chain accomplish? Or is it
| more "accurate" timing?
| jcampbell1 wrote:
| The timing chain is splash lubricated and at idle there
| isn't enough oil pressure to produce much splash. The high
| polish reduces friction particularly when there is little
| oil.
| wpearse wrote:
| Smoother surfaces, less friction, less wear, increased
| longevity.
| sammalloy wrote:
| > What does polishing the timing chain accomplish? Or is it
| more "accurate" timing?
|
| I'm also curious, in terms of idling and the longevity of
| the engine. It has to be said, those old Crown Vics are
| still on the road.
| tzs wrote:
| > How many cabs would die early because they are idling in
| traffic all day?
|
| Isn't the article just talking about idling immediately after
| starting an engine on a cold day?
| sokoloff wrote:
| Note that, for cost reasons, F1 teams are limited to 3 engines
| per driver for the season, with penalties for starting grid
| positions for exceeding this figure.
| UncleEntity wrote:
| I saw on the YouTubes that they can't even physically turn
| the motors over without preheating due to close tolerances of
| the engine guts.
| sschueller wrote:
| Right but that doesn't mean they can't rebuild the engine for
| each race weekend.
| AntiRush wrote:
| The F1 engines are sealed by the FIA. They are not
| rebuilding them and doing so would result in
| disqualification.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| > How many cabs would die early because they are idling in
| traffic all day?
|
| and cop cars? Approximately all of them. This is well known.
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/4pjnco/how_...
| aidos wrote:
| This feels a bit shallow. According to this website, another
| website says that warming your car in cold weather before driving
| can cause damage due to stripping oil from the piston.
|
| I'm willing to believe it but I'd like to hear some details.
| Surely the engine is going to warm to the same temperature soon
| enough?
| dang wrote:
| We've since changed the URL. I don't know if the current
| article is still shallow but hopefully it is less annoying.
| vsri wrote:
| Yeah, this is confusing. Does this mean idling your car is bad
| for the engine?
| rolph wrote:
| not if the oil is warm. if its cold where you are use a block
| heater so your oil is warm to begin with. then you can idle
| no problem, and get the cabin up to a human temperature
| exabrial wrote:
| Don't listen to this nonsense as it's absolute baloney.
|
| I would ask the experts that design engines and oil rather than a
| one-off op-ed piece from a news source with a questionable
| reputation, a history of sensationalism, and zero applicable
| scientific qualifications.
|
| The primary reason you warm up your engine is because oil is more
| viscous at cold temperatures. All engine oils have cold flow
| characteristics and modifiers. It doesn't take a very large
| temperature rise for oil to thin out and begin filling the
| various galleries in your engine. Just a a few minutes will
| absolutely extend the life of your engine and prevent oil
| starvation on critical components.
|
| As a side note, as your oil ages, the viscosity modifiers break
| down; so older oil needs more time to flow properly, _especially_
| if it's been 'cooked' at high temps from the summer. For your oil
| changes, try to change it between seasons, or if you do a yearly
| change, change it in the fall after the summer heat.
| michaelteter wrote:
| Yet another closed access post on HN. My last complaint about
| this got flagged, but I really don't care. The HN community needs
| to stand behind open internet, not contribute to an increasingly
| closed one.
|
| "Access Denied You don't have permission to access
| "http://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/weather-verify..."
| on this server.
|
| Reference #18.6dc31302.1671993353.baa1f4a "
| minusf wrote:
| isnt that akamai cdn blocking vpn ips?
| NikkiA wrote:
| It's a flask routing error, iirc.
| aidos wrote:
| That was caused by changing the original url.
| michaelteter wrote:
| I merely clicked the link.
|
| I am on a VPN at the moment as I am traveling in Asia.
|
| Even so, while paywalls are my #1 complaint, US-based sites
| who stonewall EU visitors is my #2. All they have to do is
| not collect data and then they don't have to worry about
| GDPR. Blocking EU visitors is a cop-out, and one that hurts
| them more. We can probably live without their "news". They're
| just losing eyes and traffic.
| soared wrote:
| Works fine for me, is that not just a temporary 403 error?
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| The site is free to access. There's no paywall.
|
| I was able to reproduce the error you got by accessing it
| through a browser in the UK.
|
| I _guess_ the site blocks access from countries that require
| compliance with GDPR.
|
| I don't think people should be required to test that the site
| is available in every country, before posting or upvoting.
| michaelteter wrote:
| No, it's not a paywall. But yes, it is still "closed".
| Blocking EU visitors using GDPR as an excuse is a cop-out.
| All they have to do is _not collect data_ on visitors. Then
| there is no worry. And realistically, they don't need to
| worry anyway. They could simply add a statement at the footer
| saying EU visitors do so in agreement of US-based rules
| regarding data collection.
|
| I do agree that submitters should not be required to test the
| site from origins they do not live in. But once it is known
| that the content is region limited, we should be able to mark
| it as such so HN can indicate that.
|
| If we take this to the logical conclusion, the current state
| left unmanaged will become a HackerNews which most of us
| abandon like we abandoned Digg and Slashdot because of their
| missteps in the past. Of course, HN doesn't derive any
| revenue (as far as I know?), so maybe they do not care if
| their readership drops way off.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| "They could simply add a statement at the footer saying EU
| visitors do so in agreement of US-based rules regarding
| data collection."
|
| They _could_ , but are you 100% sure this would comply with
| the law and eliminate the risk of penalties?
|
| I don't know which entity runs the site, whether it has
| assets or operations in EU countries etc.
|
| I'm also not a lawyer.
|
| I can't say for sure what is the right business decision
| for them.
|
| I'm curious (as I'm not in the EU and don't notice) roughly
| what proportion of HN front page stories are unavailable in
| the EU?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| weissbier wrote:
| I've experienced this also many times, especially US-centric
| sites seem to block access from EU countries. I guess because
| of the GDPR.
|
| I also can't access this site from Germany.
| psychphysic wrote:
| For me the benefits far outweigh the increased wear on the
| engine.
|
| I don't really need my engine to last 400k miles like it can in
| perfect circumstances.
|
| I need fog free windows, be comfortable driving the car without
| gloves on making the steering slip. To be able to focus on
| getting around and not shivering.
|
| I don't drive these days but back when I did those were all
| issues I had for my 5am start getting to work. And far more a
| concern to me than the engine losing some longevity (which I
| could make up for just by proper care few people do anyways).
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Interesting that you think about it that way. My primary goals
| are the opposite:
|
| 1. To save as much money as possible. Meaning to make my car
| last as long as possible, postponing the need for repairs or a
| new car as long as possible
|
| 2. To reduce energy usage as much as possible. Not only to save
| money but also because it's good for the environment.
|
| Which means I do exactly the opposite of yours. I'll to go
| great lengths to avoid turning on the car's heater. So I put on
| thicker clothes, I dry foggy windows with a towel, within the
| city I drive electric as much as possible (I have a hybrid),
| etc. I brake as little and as smoothly as possible to avoid
| kinectic energy being lost to braking (or if I do need to
| brake, at least have renegerative breaking recover 60%). All of
| this much to the chagrin of my wife who doesn't value such
| things at all. Or the guy behind me who's annoyed at the fact
| that I stop maintaining speed 100 meters away from the red
| light, instead of maintaining speed until 20 meters away and
| then braking in 2s.
|
| I have the feeling that people like me are rare. It seems that
| when it comes to cars, nobody around me cares about saving
| money or saving the environment, they mainly care about
| comfort.
| UncleEntity wrote:
| > I'll to go great lengths to avoid turning on the car's
| heater.
|
| You know, heat is a byproduct of the combustion process...
|
| --edit--
|
| And these people who won't turn on the AC to save gas end up
| messing up the aerodynamics and making the vehicle less
| efficient while also suffering.
| brookside wrote:
| Are you aware not using the heater does not affect fuel
| efficiency in an ICE car? Heaters in ICE cars take the pull
| existing heat from the engine.
|
| (I'm not aware of how your hybrid is programmed, it may or
| may not turn the engine on sooner if the heat is on.)
|
| Letting off the gas 100 meters before a stop light and coast
| that will save gas, but of course it won't be more efficient
| to brake for the 100 meters before a stop sign, except for
| regen, as you mention. And is indeed obnoxious for other
| drivers if you are braking way before a sign.
|
| Hypermiling is a good idea, but it's a trap to to slip into
| an orthorexia-type mindset about efficiency - imbuing virtue
| into deprivation. Going to "great lengths" to not turn on
| your car's heater, in addition to being 100% pointless if
| your ICE engine is running, is an asshole move if other
| people are in the car. I think it's worth it to fight the
| feelings of superiority you allude to in your last sentence.
|
| I say all of this as somebody who thinks 95% of drivers would
| be best served by a Prius or Leaf.
| kube-system wrote:
| > Are you aware not using the heater does not affect fuel
| efficiency in an ICE car? Heaters in ICE cars take the pull
| existing heat from the engine.
|
| It does in many hybrids, particularly those that can
| operate in EV mode at higher speeds. When heat is
| commanded, they often will idle under even under no load
| conditions just to maintain coolant temp. These are
| conditions which otherwise would use zero fuel.
|
| A fun party trick in my hybrid is that I can turn on and
| off my engine during the winter at a stop light by using
| the on/off switch for the climate controls. It's
| instantaneous.
| danw1979 wrote:
| Seconded by a plug-in Prius owner.
|
| Sadly the climate control pre-conditioning on the PiP
| only uses the battery (or mains, if left plugged in) to
| cool the interior before you set off, not to heat it. I
| guess this is because it doesn't have reverse cycle AC,
| so can't pump heat into the interior, only out of it. Far
| less useful in the UK than California.
|
| So if you want heat, you have to run the engine.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > I need fog free windows
|
| You don't need to warm the engine much to get that. It will
| clear up even with cold wind blowing on it.
|
| https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/3174/which-i...
| doubled112 wrote:
| Agreed. Crashing because windows fogged up again is also
| detrimental to the engine's lifespan.
| godelski wrote:
| > I need fog free windows
|
| Personally I can't drive with ice on my windows. Can't really
| see outside and I'm pretty confident that's illegal. Like 80%,
| but I'm not a lawyer.
| postalrat wrote:
| Unless you have been driving for 2 hours you will probably
| have some ice on your windows some days here in MN.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| You will definitely get a ticket here if a cop sees you
| driving with windows iced or fogged up (which you should...
| it's a serious hazard to you, other drivers, and
| pedestrians).
| eastbound wrote:
| 100%: Driver must keep the car in state of driving - or
| something like that - It includes everything.
| ajross wrote:
| I don't want to be That Guy[1], but an EV can run the climate
| control, warm the car and defrost the windows with absolutely
| no maintenance worries at all. Teslas can do it remotely while
| you sip your coffee or pack up your ski gear.
|
| [1] I totally want to be That Guy
| mise_en_place wrote:
| The cold still damages your EV's battery. It is still, after
| all, a lithium ion battery.
| voisin wrote:
| The battery is heated to avoid that damage though. Nothing
| does this in an ICE car.
| sebastien_b wrote:
| Some ICE cars have block heaters for this similar
| purpose.
| foepys wrote:
| While true, how long can the car heat the batteries
| before it's practically unusable because the battery has
| depleted so much you need to charge it again before
| driving to work? Not everybody has a charging port at
| home, especially in Europe.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Since you likely have it plugged in while it's at home.
| Perpetually.
| cuu508 wrote:
| What is the approx. power draw when the car is plugged
| in, fully charged, and the ambient temperature is around
| freezing?
| lazide wrote:
| Heating a 75kw battery up from -17F to 77F uses about
| 3kwh. So about 3-4%.
|
| This is not a significant concern, frankly.
| ggreer wrote:
| I lost a couple percent per day when leaving my car
| parked in 10degF weather. It's about the same as enabling
| sentry mode.
|
| If the car is plugged in- even to a typical 120V wall
| plug- it'll charge and warm the battery even in single
| digit temps.
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| I am the guy that preheats his Honda to perfection. I will
| fly like a bat out of hell out of my front door in my boxers
| to start the car and run back inside to get ready for another
| 30 minutes. Yes, I am a total badass.
|
| I'm not worried about maintenance because that is a fact of
| life. For Tesla's too (mostly defects).
|
| If your car breaks down shortly after you start driving it
| and the cabin is ice cold you're in trouble. At least in a
| rural area.
| bombcar wrote:
| This is a real important point - many drivers in the cold
| aren't dressed for it at all and though even many rural
| roads will have someone pass by relatively soon a warm car
| is going to be nicer.
|
| Of course anyone driving in freezing areas should have
| winter survival gear but who actually does?
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| Also, wearing heavy jackets in a car is just damn
| uncomfortable.
| bombcar wrote:
| Especially since about ten minutes in you'll be boiling
| and opening the window.
| sammalloy wrote:
| > I will fly like a bat out of hell out of my front door in
| my boxers to start the car and run back inside to get ready
| for another 30 minutes.
|
| You might want to look into a remote starter accessory. I
| had it in my last vehicle to start the AC (I live in a warm
| climate).
| raverbashing wrote:
| Exactly
|
| I love how some people get precious about cars and engines,
| something like "if you idle it for too long you're shortening
| its lifespan" and even if it's moderately true my answer would
| be "Yeah, so what? It's clunky block of 19th century
| technology, who cares?"
|
| Yeah sure, you don't need it to sit idle for something like 30
| min, just wait for it to get a bit warm then drive away.
| Worrying about this will cost me more than not worrying.
| danesparza wrote:
| Um. This article is so short it doesn't even have a "logical
| leap", much less any evidence.
|
| Just opinion.
| vsri wrote:
| This URL didn't work for me, but I found this:
| https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/weather-verif...
| EamonnMR wrote:
| When your engine is running the oil pump ought to be circulating
| oil across relevant surfaces, I don't see how idling would 'strip
| it away.' If that was the case, why would they sell cars with
| remote starters?
| pdonis wrote:
| _> I don 't see how idling would 'strip it away.'_
|
| What the article is saying here is technically correct, but I
| doubt the effect is as large or as detrimental as the article
| says.
|
| The key point is that, as the piston moves up and down in the
| cylinder, the part of the cylinder wall that is traversed is
| alternately wetted by oil and gasoline. When it is wetted by
| gasoline (i.e., when the piston is at the bottom of its
| stroke), some of the oil can dissolve. But when it is wetted by
| oil again (i.e., when the piston is at the top of its stroke),
| as you say, the oil pump will push more oil onto the surface
| and replace what was lost. So the actual effect will be to very
| slowly decrease the amount of oil in the engine. This might
| also mean a small increase in engine wear, but I would not
| expect that to be very significant compared to all the other
| sources of engine wear. If one is really concerned about the
| possible loss of oil, just check the level between changes
| (which many people do anyway).
| lazide wrote:
| If you are getting more than a super tiny film of oil in the
| cylinder, you're burning oil because your rings are toast.
|
| That has nothing to do with temperature, usually.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> If you are getting more than a super tiny film of oil in
| the cylinder, you're burning oil because your rings are
| toast._
|
| The "cylinder" is more than just the portion where
| combustion occurs, when the piston is at or near top dead
| center. The portion the article is talking about is the
| portion that, as I said in my previous post, is exposed to
| gasoline when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke--as
| it will be at the end of both the intake and the power
| strokes in a 4-stroke engine. If the mixture is rich, there
| will be extra gasoline present under those conditions that,
| according to the article, could dissolve the oil wetting
| the cylinder walls. That will be the case even if the rings
| are fine. I just don't think it's anywhere near as
| significant as the article claims, because, as the poster I
| responded to pointed out, even if some oil is dissolved in
| the extra gasoline, it will be replaced as the piston rises
| again and that portion of the cylinder wall is on the oil
| side of the rings.
| lazide wrote:
| The cylinder has rings to remove that oil.
| kkfx wrote:
| Not convinced. Sure an idle engine heat a bit slower than an used
| one, but all components around the engine, even a bit underneath,
| get a bit of heat. The cabin heated a bit allow easier removing
| of ice, plastic materials are LESS fragile due to the less
| freezing temp etc.
|
| I think such articles mean: do not burn fuel for nothing, do not
| leave powered on ICE for long period of time, and I agree with
| that, but try to stating it offer something really good or really
| bad to expected car service life is a bit ridiculous.
| aetherspawn wrote:
| There is no oil where they claim it in the cylinder on Japanese
| engines, otherwise they would be burning oil (and they don't). At
| least not for the first 300,000kms or so.
|
| Also the article claim about the power steering pump is
| completely wrong, as the pump runs no matter the speed or load of
| the pump; it will just pressure-relief through the pumps internal
| relief valve.
| walnutclosefarm wrote:
| I don't doubt that the expert consulted for this article knows
| way more about gasoline engines than I do, but the article itself
| contains some flat-out falsehoods. In particular the line "But
| don't confuse warm air coming from your car's radiator with a
| warm engine." is just wrong. The engine temperature sensor
| actually senses the engine coolant temperature, and if your dash
| is blowing warm air, then the coolant is way warmer than 40F,and
| the engine has leaned the fuel mixture.
|
| I also wish the expert had addressed the real question in this
| warming scenario - which is how many piston cycles (crankshaft
| revolutions) you run with an over-rich fuel mixture. It's
| certainly true that engine warm-up takes longer at low rpms, but
| it also true that if you run at driving rpms, while the elapsed
| time to end the over-rich fuel will be less, you will have cycled
| the pistons many times more than at an idle. It's the piston
| movement he's tagging as the engine wear culprit, and it's not at
| all clear how many more piston cycles there really are, if you
| warm at an idle. It's not even clear there are more, thinking
| from first principles.
| falcolas wrote:
| My two cents on this, based on personal observation of driving
| habits: The real problem is that people will warm up the engine
| and cab, and then drive the vehicle like the entire thing has
| warmed up. Something that couldn't be further from the truth.
| Your tires will be low on air pressure. The entire driveshaft
| will be dry and its lube will be more viscous than normal. The
| digital traction controls and diff locks could be stuck (or at
| abnormally slow to respond).
|
| So, IMO, while there's benefit to letting an engine warm up, keep
| it under 2k RPM for the first couple of miles; until the entire
| drive train is also warmed up.
| amluto wrote:
| Wow. This is unreal. The OP says:
|
| > In a blog post on its website, Smart Motors Toyota says letting
| your car idle in cold temperatures can shorten the life of your
| engine by stripping away oil from the engine's pistons and
| cylinders -- two critical components that help your engine run.
|
| > via VERIFY
|
| Great, they got some kind of content from somewhere else. Let's
| follow the link to verifythis.com:
|
| > Yes, warming up your car before driving in cold weather can
| damage the engine.
|
| > In a blog post on its website, Smart Motors Toyota says letting
| your car idle in cold temperatures can shorten the life of your
| engine by stripping away oil from the engine's pistons and
| cylinders
|
| There's even a video!
|
| Let's click the actual link to smarttoyota.com:
|
| > Warming up your vehicle can actually shorten the life of your
| engine, by letting your vehicle idle in the cold you are actually
| stripping away oil from the engine's pistons and cylinders each
| time you do this. While you may wonder where this myth came from
| since it's not true, it's because it was once based on facts.
| Jake Scheafer the Service Director at Smart Motors' says before
| cars and trucks were equipped with fuel management systems, they
| relied on carburetors and simpler fuel system management which
| did need significant time to warm up.
|
| Hint: next time you make a video based on some other source, try
| reading at least two sentences.
|
| OTOH, the bar seems really low for ChatGPT to emulate the
| capabilities of these websites...
| genewitch wrote:
| amazing, the entire premise is false.
| Jordrok wrote:
| I think you're misunderstanding. The "myth" being referred to
| in that third link is that it's beneficial to warm up your
| engine by letting it idle for a long time. This was previously
| true for cars with carburetors, but is no longer useful for
| modern cars.
|
| The idea that idling the engine for an extended time after a
| cold startup can cause damage is correct, and that idea is
| consistent in all three articles you're referring to.
| dang wrote:
| If someone can suggest the best URL for this topic, we can
| change it again. (It was even worse before.)
|
| Edit: we changed the URL from
| https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/weather-verif...
| now, to the article suggested by timmaxw and semi-extrinsic.
| Giorgi wrote:
| What? My car (which is quite old) has indicator of cold water,
| and recommends not to drive it till it is gone. It takes 3
| minutes of idling in winter for that indicator to be gone. I
| assume other cars have it too.
|
| For that 3 minutes, RPM is high, you can see it at needle and you
| can hear it too. Once indicator is gone, RPM needle drops and
| noise becomes lower too.
| BonoboIO wrote:
| This is just plain wrong. The whole article. What kind of content
| farm puts those articles out.
| bloodyplonker22 wrote:
| Always take Business Insider with a huge grain of salt. In
| addition, their articles can be very politically biased, if you
| know what I mean. Always consider the other side of the
| argument when reading from lower tier sources like Business
| Insider.
| lazide wrote:
| ChatGPT?
| Alan_Dillman wrote:
| Bunch of twaddle.
|
| I'm not doing it for the engine, I'm doing it so the windows thaw
| out, and partly so that the passenger compartment is warm. I'm
| doing it so I don't get in a friggin accident and kill someone.
|
| Oh yeah, just start it and drive off, very good. OP-ED obviously
| doesn't live in a real winter climate.
|
| As for stress on the engine, mine has a governor that won't let
| it exceed a certain speed until the engine temperature comes up.
| alkonaut wrote:
| First the heater without the engine started for 10-15 minutes,
| then if it's really cold I remote start the engine for 5 minutes
| before driving. But I avoid idling the car cold without running
| the heater first.
| genewitch wrote:
| I can only guess that your vehicle has an electric cabin heater
| that works if the motor is not on?
|
| If i "ran the heater without the engine on" in any of my
| vehicles it would just blow cold air, and for sure one uses
| engine waste heat for cabin heat.
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