[HN Gopher] Haiku R1/beta4
___________________________________________________________________
Haiku R1/beta4
Author : waddlesplash
Score : 419 points
Date : 2022-12-23 18:54 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.haiku-os.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.haiku-os.org)
| yellowapple wrote:
| It's awesome that Haiku has come a long enough way that it runs
| on my Framework out-of-the-box. Still ain't quite there as a
| daily driver, but it's very close.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Have you tried the newly-ported GNOME Web browser, mentioned in
| the release notes? It seems that it solves the "web browser
| problem" many users have complained about.
| HeckFeck wrote:
| It is excellent to see a modern browser on Haiku, but one
| thing remains:
|
| If we get a web browser with advert blocking, it will be
| ready for the modern web.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| GNOME Web has built-in adblocking.
| yellowapple wrote:
| I haven't yet, but my daily-driver-blocking issues during my
| last attempt were more around stability. Much of it I think
| is the hardware (OpenBSD and Haiku both would spontaneously
| reboot on occasion; given that it was more frequent on
| battery, I suspect it's some quirk with the Framework's power
| management - or maybe there's something in the iwx driver
| that freaks out the whole machine), and some were likely
| attributable to being on nightly; I'll have to re-test with
| beta4 (and maybe the latest UEFI updates on my machine) to
| see if that straightens some things out.
|
| The lack of a built-in solution for full-disk encryption is
| also a blocker for me. It's something I keep meaning to try
| and tackle (say, by porting over OpenBSD's FDE
| implementation), but I ain't quite comfortable enough yet
| with Haiku's codebase to even know where to start.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| There's a non-built-in solution in axeld's DriveEncryption,
| but it doesn't support encrypting boot disks.
|
| Probably we should try and incorporate DriveEncryption into
| Haiku itself and see about adding support for boot disks...
| that will require some discussion and agreement on how to
| change the bootloaders.
| hbbio wrote:
| > Since the last release, there is 1 new Haiku developer with
| commit access: davidkaroly, who has already made significant
| contributions to Haiku's in-progress support for ARM. Welcome!
|
| This is one the most interesting bits in an already awesome
| release notes! Haiku would rock with Raspberries and I can't wait
| to use it as the default OS for family 400s.
| RalfWausE wrote:
| If you want to see something really rocking on a raspi, i would
| suggest to take a look at RiscOS ;-)
| lproven wrote:
| :-D
|
| It's true, but Haiku is multithreaded now, and has SMP
| support and wifi... ;-)
| shrubble wrote:
| Installed this beta4 on a ThinkPad T410, 4GB RAM, 1280x800
| display, SSD drive. Seems pretty fast, the Emacs UI is nice,
| everything is VERY responsive.
|
| It detected only 1024x768 when it started up, which made things
| look blurry; fixed by going into the Screen app and changing it.
| Haven't figured out the Wifi yet, but the Ethernet was detected
| and worked immediately. With both Web and WebPositive browsers up
| and with a page or two loaded, 1.2GB RAM was in use, total, for
| everything.
| djsavvy wrote:
| @dang Could the URL be changed to the release notes?
| https://www.haiku-os.org/get-haiku/r1beta4/release-notes/
|
| It's a much more filled-out page, and probably what most people
| are clicking through to anyways.
| dang wrote:
| Changed from https://www.haiku-
| os.org/news/2022-12-23_haiku_r1_beta4/. Thanks!
| gigatexal wrote:
| Oh what would have been what could have been had Apple bought Be
| instead of Next. We'd likely not have any iPhones or a 2.5T Apple
| but we could have had some really cool software. BeOS and now
| Haiku will always have a special place in my nerd-head.
|
| consider sponsoring the team here:
| https://github.com/sponsors/haiku
| KMag wrote:
| In school, I quad-booted Debian, Win2k, QNX, and BeOS on my
| desktop.
|
| BeOS was very light weight. Its ethernet driver for 3c509 was
| buggy and crashed often, but being a userspace driver, I just
| got a popup asking permission to restart the driver.
| Conversely, a couple years later I had an OSX laptop, and a
| corrupted backup CD that would kernel panic OSX, Win2k, and
| Linux. (Honestly, ISO 9660 and FAT32 drivers should be migrated
| out of mainstream OS kernels, since kernel latency is very far
| from being the bottleneck when using thunmb drives or CDs.)
|
| On the other hand, BeOS had some questionable uses of metadata.
| After improperly using tar to backup my home directory before a
| reinstall, I lost all of my NetPositive browser bookmarks. I
| didn't realize each bookmark was a zero-sized file with the URL
| actually stored in metadata. My improper backup procedure
| dropped the metadata fork.
|
| Also, there was a kernel bug related to semaphores. I had some
| semaphore code that worked fine under Linux but would kernel
| panic BeOS.
|
| Had Apple purchased Be, we'd likely have a much lighter weight
| OSX, though perhaps with poorer support for multiple users.
|
| I'm still hoping that someday QNX RTP gets open-sourced. A hard
| real-time light weight microkernel OS was fun to play around
| with. In particular, a cache benchmark I ran for a systems
| class showed quite a bit smaller cache footprint for QNX vs.
| Debian. (Though, Debian almost certainly had more daemons
| running, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison of kernel
| cache footprints.)
| jeffbee wrote:
| I find this take somewhat baffling. At the moment that Apple
| bought NeXT, NeXTSTEP had a mature software toolchain, a
| working IPv4 networking stack, and enterprise customers, three
| things that BeOS lacked. BeOS had a primitive software
| toolchain ecosystem based on pre-standard C++. BeOS IP
| networking barely worked and despite everything claimed in
| their advertising it was fully serialized, single-threaded
| networking. BeOS had zero customers.
|
| The only thing that Be did have was one nifty demo, and a
| somewhat innovative file system. Apple must have correctly
| deduced that it would be easy to improve the filesystem,
| because they later did so, with the same author.
|
| Comparing BeOS and NextSTEP in 1997 is like comparing a ham
| sandwich to a piglet and a bag of flour. One of these things
| was a finished product.
| perardi wrote:
| Also, NeXtSTEP could reliably print stuff. Which, given that
| publishing was the niche that arguably kept the Mac alive
| during those years: kinda important!
| PAPPPmAc wrote:
| (Just because I love this argument): Have you used Mid-90s
| OpenStep and BeOS on period hardware? People rose-tinted-
| glasses the hell out of OpenStep (...and the first few OS X
| releases), it's ridiculously sluggish and brittle (in that
| same kind of "I did something to config and rendered it
| unbootable" way as early 2000s Linux). BeOS is shockingly
| performant and flexible on the same hardware.
|
| As much as the original BeOS network stack was mediocre (and
| it was, it wasn't fixed until the BONE design in that final
| Dano leak in 2001) the much-touted NeXT networking stack was
| literally the open source 4.3BSD networking code running
| hosted, with their awful NetInfo system on top, which Apple
| spent the next several years excising. Excising like the
| Adobe license fees cost more than a PC, few major vendors
| (not even Adobe!) willing to port their software to, Display
| PostScript GUI they had to throw out and replace.
|
| I'll grant that they got a really good set of development
| tools they're still essentially using, and Be's were rough
| (and kind of alien, that kind of pervasive threading is
| _still_ hard with decades of work on the tooling).
|
| Apple bought NeXT because the stack looked architecturally
| like a less-bungled version of their own failed Pink/Taligent
| effort, and Steve Jobs had a better relationship with people
| still at Apple than Jean-Louis Gassee.
| shrubble wrote:
| I ran NEXTSTEP 3.2 and I think, 3.3, on both 486 DX2/66 and
| original NeXT hardware. At one job I ran on a 25Mhz Mono
| slab as my daily and only machine. I did Web surfing,
| email, used VarioData for the home-built sales/contact
| system, etc.
|
| There were some pieces that were slow, but overall it was a
| fantastic experience. The "Shelf" was great; I would store
| commonly-used docs there, reference materials etc.
| lukeh wrote:
| NetInfo did have some good ideas, and I suppose it could
| have been improved, but the market wanted a standards-based
| solution. I think macOS was the first commercial operating
| system to ship with a RFC2307 LDAP client. Jaguar (10.2)
| had a NetInfo to LDAP bridge and subsequent versions
| removed NetInfo entirely, although I think NOOP stubs may
| still remain in libSystem.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Look I'm not going to bat for NeXTSTEP as a user nirvana,
| but _at the time Apple bought it_ it was hugely advanced
| compared to BeOS, which still had not reached R3. A few
| things that NeXT could do that Be could not do at the time:
| run on an Intel PC, burn CD-Rs, and print.
|
| BeOS R4-the first revision that did useful things users
| actually wanted-came out two years after Apple agreed to
| acquire NeXT. The current BeOS at the moment was "DR8" as
| in "developer release".
| KerrAvon wrote:
| The fundamental thing Apple got out of the NeXT
| acquisition was an adult OS management team. The software
| acquired was totally irrelevant (at the time). What was
| important was new people in charge, who unlike the
| previous Apple management, could actually make decisions.
| The decisions were often bad, but they were decisions!
|
| If Amelio and Hancock had been competent, they would have
| actually set up a management structure internally and
| started focusing on shipping Copland-based software
| instead of shopping externally. Strip it down and get it
| out the door and build on that. It could absolutely have
| been done.
|
| Of course, you wouldn't have the iMac or iPod or iPhone.
| And Apple might not have survived. The world would be
| very different.
|
| (That all said, OpenStep was truly dire in 1997. Yes, it
| could print, although they ended up having to write an
| entirely new graphics stack from scratch anyway. It
| actually took six years from 1997 to turn moribund
| OpenStep into a viable consumer OS (I could not recommend
| anything before Jaguar to end users -- the Finder, among
| other things, was unusable up to that point).
| PAPPPmAc wrote:
| The tale of major incumbents' completely bungled
| OS/Platform projects of the 80s and 90s really is one of
| the great epics of the field.
|
| A short - and playing it a little fast and loose for
| narrative like a Malcolm Gladwell piece - telling of the
| circumstances:
|
| Apple failed utterly with Taligent, and Copland, and
| mismanaged A/UX into the ground, so it's the mid 90s and
| they're shipping a hyper-extended version of a one-off
| from 1984 that had to be hacked for even cooperative
| multitasking, looking around for a platform to jump on
| to. With IBM's help in two of those cases. They even,
| reportedly, batted around giving up and becoming a shell
| on top of NT or Solaris by porting Quickdraw during their
| flail in the early 90s. Then they bought NeXT, took one
| more (and it was at least the third after A/UX and the
| MAE product which was really more of an emulator, but so
| was Classic) pass at "Let's slap a Mac-like shell and
| compat layer on top of a UNIX and call it a day" and got
| successful selling mostly handheld appliances running
| basically that stack.
|
| IBM failed utterly with their share of Taligent and the
| A/UX/AIX merger planning, and mismanaged OS/2 into the
| ground, until IBM, once of "IBM and the Seven Dwarves"
| dominance, became a midsize player in the PC market they
| created (more through incumbent effects than technical
| prowess), until they gave up and sold the businesses to a
| Chinese clone maker and retreated to high-end niche
| markets. (Their spun out printer division, the legacy of
| their once dominant typewriter business, would also later
| also be bought out by a Chinese cartridge cloner, so it's
| almost a theme for them.)
|
| DEC dithered on ...literally everything because they
| didn't understand the world after minicomputers, so all
| their talent left as they crumbled (which is also a large
| part of how AMD64 happened, there is an awful lot of
| Alpha lineage in the K8 design). Eventually their corpse
| was consumed by a PC cloner, who were themselves consumed
| by HP.
|
| The UNIX vendors were too busy infighting to get much
| done, and all the UNIX-brand-UNIX vendors license cost
| overhead was too high to put up credible consumer
| offerings anyway, until eventually a hobby project from
| some kid in Finland ate their entire software business
| while Intel (possibly accidentally, Itanium is the
| culmination of a series of failures - 432,860,960 - for
| them too) ratfucked their long term hardware projects to
| death.
|
| ...And so Microsoft, then famous for 8-bit BAISCs, slowly
| abandoning their own successful but mutant UNIX offering
| (Xenix), managing to sell Seattle Computer Products' DOS
| to IBM after Digital Research/Gary Kidall (CP/M) didn't
| want to deal with IBM, and the surprising success of
| their awful DOS shell, ran away with nearly the entire
| mainstream OS market for decades by gathering everyone
| competent from the VMS and OS/2 lineages (they put Dave
| Cutler and Moshe Dunie in charge) and having them write
| NT. Running mostly on Intel's inescapable accidental
| success extension-of-an-extension-of-an-extension legacy
| architecture.
|
| It's a weird field we're in.
| greatquux wrote:
| Spot on man. I think we've all learned that the best tech
| stack will not win without also having a good sales,
| marketing, and management team to support it. And if you
| are completely incompetent at those things it doesn't
| matter how good your tech is, you will turn into a
| hilarious failure we'll all be laughing at later. (Though
| we'll have a lot of fun making YouTube videos where we
| run all your shit through emulation.) I know people
| always shat on Microsoft's engineering, though the truth
| is I think they tried to do the best they could with what
| they had and they also understood how important backwards
| compatibility was, and they had to work within that
| limitation. But I think that maybe they were just a bit
| jealous that their management was so far ahead of
| everyone else (really only Apple after Jobs came back
| could rival them)!
| PAPPPmAc wrote:
| I'm not sure that attributing the successes to "sales or
| marketing" had as much to do with it as timing and
| position. Management _failures_ certainly dominated the
| era, there were vast numbers of unforced errors due
| largely to managerial empire building, feature
| creep/novelty seeking, and ambition exceeding the scale
| of tractable development practices. The note up-thread
| about "What was important was new people in charge, who
| unlike the previous Apple management, could actually make
| decisions. The decisions were often bad, but they were
| decisions!" is, IMO, a great read on the situation. I've
| posted in earlier HN threads about my belief in the "Next
| bought Apple with Apple's money" idea, and the
| replacement (or reversion since a lot of them were Apple
| folks to start with) of Apple's management with Next
| folks in short order. They were making largely the same
| kinds of decisions that almost bankrupted Next, but under
| more favorable circumstances.
|
| Even as someone who has run Linux most of the time for
| like 15 years, the underlying tech in NT is in many ways
| by far the best design of the OSes that survived to
| modern maturity. I just hate almost everything they've
| done with the upper layers of the stack since 7.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| R3 could actually run on Intel PCs; it was the first
| release to have that option available. The other two you
| are probably right about, I'm not actually an expert in
| BeOS history pre-R5 :)
| steve1977 wrote:
| NeXT even had stuff like WebObjects, which was really ahead
| of its time back then. And AFAIK it still powers some
| services at Apple.
| jeffbee wrote:
| iTunes and App Store seem to both still be backed by
| webobjects services. Stuff like [1] still respond at WO-
| like URLs and still include headers like `x-webobjects-
| whatever` so I surmise these are still production WO apps.
|
| 1: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStoreServices.woa/
| ws/w...
| diskzero wrote:
| Many Be employees, including myself, ended up at Apple; some
| after a brief time at Eazel and others later on. They had, and
| continue to, make great contributions. As a former Be employee
| and lover of BeOS, I can say that Apple acquiring Be would have
| been a disaster for Apple. I have no ill will to Gil Amelio,
| Ellen Hancock, Steve Glass and the other leadership, but they
| didn't have what it took (other than the NeXT purchase) to pull
| Apple out of crisis.
| angrygoat wrote:
| Circa 1999 one of the popular machines in my uni's computer
| club was the BeBox - it had a solid web browser, it was fast,
| it had the cool CPU usage indicator on the front, and it was
| *nix enough to compile most stuff or to work on assignments in
| ANSI C. And it was just so snappy, it could do more than one
| thing without getting janky.
|
| A real shame that they faded out. I kind of miss those days
| with all the different and varied workstations - Be, SGI, DEC,
| HP, IBM, Sun, ...
| rzzzt wrote:
| I'd like to see the GeekPort reintroduced on non-Pi class
| machines. A bit of digital GPIO, some analog lines, maybe
| SPI...
| guenthert wrote:
| Twenty years ago I might have liked that too, but these
| days I _much_ prefer dedicated machines (MCUs like Arduino,
| P8X32A, R.Pico etc. or "single-board" (or rather "open-
| frame") computers like R.Pi, BBB etc.) for the acoustic
| noise alone (not to speak of power bill and electrical
| safety). USB or Ethernet (preferred for galvanic
| separation) on the PC does just fine to connect to those.
| hakfoo wrote:
| I wonder why there isn't a $20 PCI-E card (or perhaps USB
| dongle) that offers a 40-pin RasPi-style port.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I don't know about the prices but mixed-signal GPIO rigs
| for PCIe and USB are very common. Look at the "LabJack"
| for example. The LabJack U3-HV has almost exact feature
| parity with the geekport.
| hakfoo wrote:
| A quick google puts it at $130, well beyond the price of
| "just buy a Raspberry Pi or similar device, which also
| comes with all the SoC smarts too."
| jeffbee wrote:
| Fair enough. It compares more favorably to an odd port
| inconveniently located on the back of a $5000 (2022
| dollars) tower PC.
| ofrzeta wrote:
| If you had a PCI card you would need some kind of
| external adapter or breakout box for the GPIO pins. Seems
| much more practical to have the board in the "breakout
| box" and connect it via USB.
| cameroncooper wrote:
| It would be interesting to see what would have happened had
| Apple bought Be instead of Apple, but I think it's pretty clear
| Apple made the "right" move. NeXT had really good software, and
| of course, Steve Jobs (and let's not forget about the rest of
| the NeXT team with people like Avie). Hard to imagine Jean-
| Louis Gassee (or anyone else really) being able to turn the
| company around like Steve did.
| hankman86 wrote:
| Exactly. In acquiring NeXT, Apple bought leadership and
| culture. And we can argue forever if Apple's engineers could
| have shipped the first OSX release earlier or in a better
| state, had they instead acquired Be. But I doubt it. Because
| - again - they bought themselves a high-performance culture,
| which they might not have gotten from Be. Porting BeOS to
| Apple hardware / existing software would have likely required
| an equally Herculean effort.
|
| Oh and they got Steve Jobs of course who made quick work of
| pushing out the old Apple leadership. And good that he did.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| BeOS already ran on existing Apple PowerPC hardware of the
| time:
|
| http://testou.free.fr/www.beatjapan.org/mirror/www.be.com/s
| u...
| pjmlp wrote:
| Assuming Apple's success by going with Be instead of NeXT, we
| would have yet another mainstream OS where C++ plays a major
| role, thus settling the whole discussiong regarding C vs C++
| for OS design.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Linus Torvalds has settled that whole discussion, by
| rejecting C++ and subsequently adopting Rust. Even Windows is
| basically written in C in its lowest layers anyway, they
| apparently don't find C++ itself very useful.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Linus Torvalds has settled that whole discussion for the
| Linux kernel.
|
| Thankfully his opinion about C++ is meaningless outside
| Linux world.
|
| Windows started to adopt C++ on the kernel since Vista, you
| can make use of Windows Implementation Library, a C++
| template library for kernel, drivers and userspace code.
| Just gotta to love that VC++ /kernel flag.
|
| macOS with its NeXTSTEP heritage, changed from having
| Objective-C drivers on kernel space to C++ drivers in
| kernel space.
|
| Then if you bother to broaden your horizons beyond FOSS
| UNIX clones, there are enough OSes already shipping C++ on
| the kernel.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| > The thumbnails themselves are stored in extended attributes of
| the files themselves, which means applications can create their
| own thumbnails for custom filetypes, if they want (for example, a
| screenshot might be the thumbnail of an emulator's save-state.)
|
| This is pretty neat. Is it something that script-type
| applications can do, as opposed to more formally-programmed
| applications?
|
| Or for that matter is there that kind of system scripting
| language for the OS, like an ARexx for Haiku? I've used Haiku but
| not at this level.
| bluepoint wrote:
| > One of the newly available GTK applications is GNOME Web aka.
| Epiphany, which is based on a very recent version of WebKitGTK.
| This provides an unfortunately non-native but largely functional
| web browser for Haiku for the first time in many years, with
| "just works" status for major websites like YouTube and others.
|
| I was really waiting for this! I want to install Haiku in an old
| computer for an old lady friend to use (and for me to see how she
| will use it). They only problem always was that youtube never
| really worked. That is the chance!
| gatosenojados wrote:
| Try it in the browser, new version should be available soon:
| https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku
| xvilka wrote:
| > Supporting these drivers required the addition of an "OpenBSD
| compatibility layer", which builds on top of the existing FreeBSD
| compatibility layer.
|
| This doesn't look very good, in my opinion. While having working
| WiFi is important, stacking compatibility layers is not a good
| architectural decision.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| OpenBSD is itself a fork of FreeBSD from many years ago, and
| while there has been a significant amount of API divergence,
| the differences are not as large as you might first expect. The
| "OpenBSD compatibility layer" is just a bunch of headers which
| add more or differing functions from FreeBSD, it does not have
| any .c files. It works just fine.
| chungy wrote:
| OpenBSD was actually a fork of NetBSD ca. 1996; NetBSD and
| FreeBSD in turn are basically sibling-forks from 386BSD.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Ah right, seems I got the BSD lineages mixed up. Well, the
| basic point still stands, anyway.
| makach wrote:
| HaikuOS still going strong
|
| If we like it on our pcs
|
| Install and use it
| LeFantome wrote:
| Both Haiku and SerenityOS seem to have enough momentum to
| potentially become viable contenders for the Open Source Desktop
| someday.
|
| Both of them highlight how much nicer a vertically integrated
| user experience can be as well as how much lighter weight a
| modern desktop can be as well. They also demonstrate that it does
| not take dozens of corporate paid engineers to do it ( not that I
| would turn them away ).
|
| Haiku has a long lead over Serenity in terms of hardware support
| and now app compatibility ( with the new X11 and Wayland stuff ).
| That said, having to drag along binary compatibility with BeOS
| must really be slowing Haiku down at this point.
|
| I am looking forward to using one or both of them in the future.
| bionsystem wrote:
| I like RedOx too although it's going to be quite some work
| before it runs on a reasonably wide variety of hardware. Haiku
| was fun to play around a few years back, I remember being able
| to write a toy gui app in an afternoon with no particular dev
| experience (although some programming knowledge). Indeed
| everything seemed well integrated and coherent.
| httgp wrote:
| Is elementaryOS still going strong?
| alganet wrote:
| I'm eager to test this. HiDPI, modern browser, wine, emacs...
| that's A LOT of useful stuff.
|
| I use lightweight linux VMs to keep different workspaces and
| hobbyspaces separate from my main OS. Depending on how the test
| goes, I feel that Haiku might replace some of those linuxes.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| Yep, this stood out for me as well:
|
| > but now (thanks to Emacs developers!) has a fully-upstreamed,
| polished-to-a-shine native GUI.
|
| This alone is definitely worth giving it a go!
| user3939382 wrote:
| These compatibility layers are huge and are going to skyrocket
| Haiku's strength as a daily driver. I'm really rooting for
| everyone working on it. Keep up the good work guys.
| [deleted]
| jamesdwilson wrote:
| any way to run this bare metal on an m1 mac? can i dual boot it?
| waddlesplash wrote:
| The ARM64 port doesn't yet boot all the way to desktop in QEMU,
| so it certainly won't run bare metal on an M1, unfortunately.
|
| You can certainly dual-boot it on x86 machines, though.
| snvzz wrote:
| Is RISC-V port in any better condition?
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Yes. As I noted in another comment, the RISC-V port is
| basically "fully functional" and only lacks software
| (HaikuPorts is set up to build on it, but we haven't yet
| created binary package repositories for RISC-V.) I know at
| least one Haiku developer has a HiFive Unmatched and it
| runs Haiku pretty well.
| ofrzeta wrote:
| With so much compatibility now how much work would it be to port
| Firefox? What are the showstoppers?
| szastamasta wrote:
| While I totally despise Electron it might be a great moment for
| new OSes and UI toolkits to emerge. In near future it might be
| enough to port Electron and a web browser and your niche OS might
| become actually usable on daily basis.
|
| It's slow and a total memory waste, but web became a new UI
| toolkit that actually solved OS compatibility issues. Who would
| have thought...
| prmoustache wrote:
| Aren't most electron apps available as regular web pages
| anyway?
|
| I mean I tried a number of electron apps and always end up
| using the web version that is always the most up to date and
| are as wll integrated to the desktop thanks to desktops support
| for web notifications.
|
| And in many cases, the web version end up more stable/reliable
| than the electron one. MS Teams is a great example of that.
| hectorm wrote:
| If anyone wants to quickly spin up a Haiku VM I leave here my
| Docker image [1].
|
| It's just a proof of concept but some people are using it for CI
| as well [2].
|
| [1] https://github.com/hectorm/docker-qemu-haiku
|
| [2]
| https://github.com/HaikuArchives/ArtPaint/blob/7f5c49278545e...
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Release notes: https://www.haiku-os.org/get-
| haiku/r1beta4/release-notes/
|
| Downloads: https://www.haiku-os.org/get-haiku/r1beta4/
| pb82 wrote:
| Very happy to see boot failure fixes in the release notes.
| Can't wait to give it another try with beta4!
| superboum wrote:
| 3 days ago, I installed Haiku on bare metal: an old PC from
| ~2004. I was not aware that a new version was planned at that
| time, but the upgrade was completely smooth.
|
| My idea when I installed Haiku was to make my own version of the
| "old computer challenge"[1], with an emphasis on using GUI apps.
|
| Similarly to @probono (a FOSS dev), I also found Haiku
| "shockingly good"[2] at being a lightweight, responsive, easy-to-
| use desktop OS.
|
| After some patching, I was even able to compile Tectonic[3], a
| modern LaTeX engine written in Rust, and Quaternion a Matrix
| client supporting E2EE[4]. All that running on a single core
| Athlon 64 and 1.5GB of RAM.
|
| I posted some screenshots in a Mastodon threads if you are
| curious[5] (but my posts are in french sorry :/). And of course
| this comment is posted from Haiku!
|
| [1]: https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2021-07-07-old-computer-
| challe...
|
| [2]: https://medium.com/@probonopd/my-first-day-with-haiku-
| shocki...
|
| [3]: https://tectonic-typesetting.github.io/en-US/
|
| [4]: https://github.com/quotient-im/Quaternion
|
| [5]: https://mastodon.tedomum.net/@tgoldoin/109554115997967651
| phkahler wrote:
| I had a single core Athlon 64 that I upgraded to a dual core
| back in the day. That was my primary PC until I got a Ryzen
| 2400G several years ago. All are really great CPUs for many
| years after they're made. Next up might be a Zen 5 APU. I'm on
| a slow upgrade cycle...
| nortonham wrote:
| oh i loved reading the old computer challenge at the time.
| Solene did some great write ups about it
| dleslie wrote:
| How's the support for Samba/NFS?
| waddlesplash wrote:
| There's a built-in NFSv4 client, but I think it may have
| fallen a bit behind NFSv4's evolution; I recall hearing you
| had to turn some feature off in order to get it to connect to
| a standard exported volume from Linux.
|
| SMB is supported by fusesmb, which is available as a package.
| dleslie wrote:
| Cool. Network file system support is critical for how I
| would use it. I've loved the experience for the most part,
| otherwise.
|
| Well, and Emacs support, but that's in now.
| UncleSlacky wrote:
| It also runs really well on old netbooks - it's revitalised my
| Asus EEE 701 4G (even though the screen resolution is below the
| official minimum requirement), it fits comfortably on the
| internal 4Gb SSD, and even the wifi works!
| xattt wrote:
| Around 2001, I ran the contemporary BeOS demo on a Pentium MMX
| 200 MHz machine with 32 MB of RAM. Even with those limitations,
| the thing screamed. I believe it was live CD you downloaded and
| burned.
|
| I am absolutely not surprised it works well on Athlon 64.
| KMag wrote:
| Ahh, the memories! (266 MHz PII, 64 MB RAM ... maybe upgraded
| to 384 MB RAM by the time I was quad-booting Debian, Win2k,
| BeOS and QNX)
|
| Maybe I ran BeOS slightly before a demo CD was available, or
| maybe I just didn't risk burning a coaster. (Remember those
| days where you had to worry about your OS not being able to
| feed the CD burner as fast as it was writing?) When I demoed
| BeOS around 2000, it was on a floppy (I repurposed a free AoL
| floppy from a few years earlier... by that time AoL was
| mailing free CDs instead of free floppies). The demo floppy
| allowed one to format a BeFS partition on the drive, and I
| think even put the kernel on the drive, but kept the
| bootloader on the floppy to encourage purchase.
|
| I woke up one morning to see the floppy drive light on, and
| apparently a BeOS kernel or usespace driver bug caused it to
| spin the floppy continuously all night without moving the
| read/write head. I popped out the floppy and pulled back the
| dust guard to discover a thin stripe where the magnetic media
| had been polished off of the floppy. The drive didn't read
| any floppy correctly after that; presumably the read/write
| head was covered in magnetic media dust.
|
| I don't remember how, but I eventually found instructions for
| copying the bootloader off of the downloaded floppy image and
| getting GRUB to find it, so I didn't need to put my
| replacement floppy drive at risk.
| TruckerScreamed wrote:
| Pentium 75 mhz was enough for the BeOS demo. It was almost
| like using QNX. I believe I tried BeOS on some 486'es too,
| but if I did not at least it screamed, and burned, as you
| said, even on a Pentium 75mhz. The only limitation of the
| 'demo' was that usable space was like locked into 512MB
| extendable user-space, if I'm not wrong. Please do correct
| me/this.
| einr wrote:
| BeOS never (officially) supported 486 class processors, I
| can't recall if it actually uses Pentium instructions and
| won't run, or if it's just super slow on 486. I think it is
| actually compiled for Pentium.
| drooopy wrote:
| I remember having the exact same experience on slightly less
| powerful hardware with that BeOS demo. I remember throwing
| everything at it and it just kept on going like it was no big
| deal and me constantly going "wow, wow, wow" haha! It was
| such a bummer going back to Windows after experiencing that.
| bmacho wrote:
| I believe Linux should be even faster, right? Probably it only
| lacks a lightweight and responsive DE, and a distro with sane
| defaults, e.g. no gazillions of random processes running at the
| start. But e.g. the compilation, or anything compute heavy
| should be faster under linux?
| lproven wrote:
| I wouldn't have thought so, no.
|
| Linux is a huge OS by the standards of BeOS and Haiku, with
| an early-1970s design and layers and layers of legacy cruft
| between the kernel and the user.
|
| Dr Tanenbaum called it obsolete even 30 years ago:
| https://www.edn.com/linux-is-obsolete-thread-is-started-
| janu...
|
| ... and he had a point then.
| squarefoot wrote:
| It is possible that musl based distros such as Alpine, could
| somehow compete for having a lot smaller code footprint to
| execute, but "normal" glibc ones would hardly match Haiku's
| speed. That doesn't necessarily make Linux inferior; it's
| just the price to pay for decades of development from
| thousands of developers and being portable to a huge number
| of platforms. The upside is we (Linux users) have a lot more
| software and supported hardware than Haiku, as of today.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| I switch between Haiku and Q4OS on the same netbook, and they
| are both very responsive. The Linux distro does indeed have
| some performance advantages. However I haven't tried beta4
| yet.
| deaddodo wrote:
| > 3 days ago, I installed Haiku on bare metal: an old PC from
| ~2004. I was not aware that a new version was planned at that
| time, but the upgrade was completely smooth.
|
| If there is one thing to say about Haiku, their slow and steady
| approach has resulted in a remarkably solid Kernel and base
| system. It is extremely light and has a well-built and
| consistent environment. I've always hoped more engineers would
| hop on the bandwagon to accelerate development, but what the
| team _has_ achieved is notable in comparison to other
| alternative /"hobby" OSes.
| rcarmo wrote:
| This is pretty impressive. GTK, WINE, Wayland... As a
| "lightweight" OS, it has a lot of potential for tinkering. I
| can't wait until they get a working ARM version for a Raspberry
| PI or an RK3688 SBC.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| The approaches to X and Wayland compatibility are interesting.
|
| >Instead of running a full X server as XQuartz or other X11
| compatibility packages do on other operating systems, it
| directly handles Xlib API calls and translates them into Haiku
| API calls, instead.
|
| >It is a little more complicated than the one for X11, running
| an "in-process Wayland server" for each application instead of
| translating C API calls directly.
|
| Unfortunately the Wayland part has no blog post similar to the
| X one.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| The ARM port has made a lot of progress since the last release;
| it gets almost all the way to starting the desktop. Similar
| progress was made on ARM64. But that's not very exciting news,
| so it only got an oblique mention in the release notes.
|
| The RISC-V port on the other hand is nearly fully usable even
| on bare metal. I know some people run it on HiFive Unmatched,
| at least...
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| >One of the newly available GTK applications is GNOME Web aka.
| Epiphany, which is based on a very recent version of WebKitGTK.
| This provides an unfortunately non-native but largely functional
| web browser for Haiku for the first time in many years, with
| "just works" status for major websites like YouTube and others.
|
| For many people that makes Haiku suitable to run daily.
| dleslie wrote:
| WebPositive was also updated to latest WebKit. Honestly, it
| worked OK before and if it's using the same WebKit as GNOME Web
| then it should be just as good, but also using native UI.
| chungy wrote:
| I kind of get not using the Be GUI API makes it feel "non-
| native", but it's still a native port of GTK and Epiphany. It's
| not like they've built a Linux ABI emulation layer to run it.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| There's not a Linux ABI emulation layer but it is running on
| top of a Wayland emulation layer, instead of using the Be GUI
| API directly (as the Qt, SDL, and Java Swing ports do.) That
| does make a difference, especially around stuff like keyboard
| handling.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| >on top of a Wayland emulation layer
|
| As per release notes, for time being it uses X11 layer
| instead for features and performance.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Uh ... no? The release notes state it started out using
| the X11 layer, but then switched to using the Wayland
| layer.
|
| I should know: I wrote the X11 layer, contributed to the
| Wayland layer, and wrote most of these release notes. :)
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| Yeah, skimmed through them and mixed up the wording. It
| says "port now is built atop [the Wayland compatibility
| layer] for both features and performance reasons",
| remembered it the other way.
| phkahler wrote:
| So can it run Solvespace? CAD with GTK gui.
| rayiner wrote:
| Really impressive work man. Really great to see Haiku
| alive and kicking. I remember stanning for BeOS on
| Slashdot. Those were the days.
| nullc wrote:
| I really love how responsive the Haiku gui feels.
|
| I only use if for testing free software packages in a "weird"
| build environment, but every time I do I feel sad for how much
| we've regressed in terms of the latency of modern desktop
| software.
|
| Beyond latency the UIs are also just a lot more useful, the
| subtle faux-3d delineates the boundaries of control surfaces and
| make it much more clear where you need to click and what will
| happen when you do.
| spyremeown wrote:
| Who is the designer behind Haiku's icons and general "feel"? It
| looks really nice.
| c0balt wrote:
| I can't speak to the specific person(s) however the Haiku inc.
| (The non-profit for Haiku Org stuff) has an FAQ entry about
| them: https://www.haiku-inc.org/trademarks/haiku_icons/
|
| Edit: Fixed typo
| waddlesplash wrote:
| That would be "stippi" aka. Stephan Assmus on both counts, I
| believe. At least the icon style was chosen after a competition
| all the way back in 2006, where stippi's style got the most
| votes [1]. The look & feel of controls was done by him in 2009
| [2], not sure if there was ever an announcement about that (I
| see an old forum thread that may be related, though.)
|
| These days, stippi does not have much time for Haiku, but there
| are a number of developers & community members who have picked
| up where he left off, continuing work on the UI and drawing new
| icons when required.
|
| (Old hands from the BeOS days may remember stippi as the co-
| developer of the shareware "WonderBrush", which now runs on
| Haiku and has been open-sourced [3].)
|
| [1]: https://www.haiku-
| os.org/news/2006-11-03_icon_contest_and_be...
|
| [2]:
| https://github.com/haiku/haiku/commit/2f86ba45579bdc9648b232...
|
| [3]: https://github.com/stippi/WonderBrush-v2/
| brobinson wrote:
| Where do you even see them? I clicked around the website for a
| minute and can't find a freaking screenshot of anything
| anywhere. How frustrating.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| The front-page should probably have more screenshots, yeah.
|
| There's a screenshot tour here: https://www.haiku-
| os.org/slideshows/haiku-1/
|
| And the release notes, linked from the release announcement,
| have screenshots: https://www.haiku-os.org/get-
| haiku/r1beta4/release-notes/
| layer8 wrote:
| The user guide has some: https://www.haiku-
| os.org/docs/userguide/en/gui.html
| dang wrote:
| This is maybe about the limit for a list like this, and I omitted
| a few less interesting ones. If anyone knows of a good thread
| that I missed, we can merge it in!
|
| _Show HN: Xlibe - A serverless Xlib (X11) compatibility layer
| for Haiku_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31167562 -
| April 2022 (46 comments)
|
| _Giving Haiku Beta 3 a try_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29757451 - Jan 2022 (48
| comments)
|
| _My progress in porting Wine_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29753069 - Dec 2021 (62
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Now Has Experimental 3D Acceleration_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29390689 - Nov 2021 (71
| comments)
|
| _Haiku has hired an existing contributor to work on Haiku full-
| time_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28305191 - Aug 2021
| (105 comments)
|
| _20 Years of Haiku_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28241255 - Aug 2021 (119
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Beta 3_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27955755 -
| July 2021 (96 comments)
|
| _HaikuOS running on RISC-V hardware (HiFive Unmatched)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27867941 - July 2021 (80
| comments)
|
| _The Dawn of Haiku OS (2012)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27616822 - June 2021 (15
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Monthly Activity Report - May 2021_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27395511 - June 2021 (20
| comments)
|
| _Haiku OS ported and running on RISC-V_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27129305 - May 2021 (86
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Activity Report - January 2021_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26055781 - Feb 2021 (24
| comments)
|
| _Haiku: Call for Wallpapers_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24756787 - Oct 2020 (24
| comments)
|
| _Haiku: Contest for System Sounds_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593719 - Sept 2020 (15
| comments)
|
| _A decidedly non-Linux distro walkthrough: Haiku R1 /beta2_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23676975 - June 2020 (46
| comments)
|
| _Haiku R1 /beta2 has been released_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23469209 - June 2020 (254
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Alpha 1: Rebirth of legend_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22401383 - Feb 2020 (14
| comments)
|
| _500 Byte Images: The Haiku Vector Icon Format (2016)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22373422 - Feb 2020 (91
| comments)
|
| _The Haiku Operating System_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20812877 - Aug 2019 (1
| comment)
|
| _My sixth day with Haiku: Under the hood of resources, icons,
| and packages_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20443136 -
| July 2019 (38 comments)
|
| _Most long-standing XHCI (USB 3.0+) issues resolved_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19352839 - March 2019 (58
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Beta is finally here_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18769814 - Dec 2018 (53
| comments)
|
| _What makes BeOS and Haiku unique_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18583722 - Dec 2018 (219
| comments)
|
| _Haiku R1 /beta1 has been released_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18099127 - Sept 2018 (79
| comments)
|
| _The State of Rust on Haiku_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17472907 - July 2018 (84
| comments)
|
| _LibreOffice is now available for Haiku_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17440862 - July 2018 (157
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Project_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15973918
| - Dec 2017 (64 comments)
|
| _Scripting the Haiku GUI with hey_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15697697 - Nov 2017 (47
| comments)
|
| _Trying to work in Haiku, the BeOS successor_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14697308 - July 2017 (24
| comments)
|
| _Porting Swift to Haiku_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14617453 - June 2017 (49
| comments)
|
| _Haiku booting in UEFI mode_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13200633 - Dec 2016 (94
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Project_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12566056
| - Sept 2016 (143 comments)
|
| _500 Byte Images: The Haiku Vector Icon Format_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12420763 - Sept 2016 (81
| comments)
|
| _Haiku OS Action - From BeOS compatible to Desktop [video]_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9713843 - June 2015 (4
| comments)
|
| _Haiku OS - Fundraising 2015_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9046701 - Feb 2015 (27
| comments)
|
| _Whatever Happened to BeOS?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8175135 - Aug 2014 (17
| comments)
|
| _Interview with Haiku developer Pawel Dziepak_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7754772 - May 2014 (47
| comments)
|
| _Haiku meets 9th processor_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6987731 - Dec 2013 (44
| comments)
|
| _Haiku Operating System_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5564766 - April 2013 (110
| comments)
|
| _Haiku OS (BeOS clone)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4123941 - June 2012 (46
| comments)
|
| _HaikuOS x86_64 port part of Google Summer of Code_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3906710 - April 2012 (15
| comments)
|
| _The Dawn of Haiku OS_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3904972 - April 2012 (110
| comments)
|
| * Haiku Project Announces Availability of Haiku R1/Alpha 2* -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1334827 - May 2010 (11
| comments)
|
| _Haiku: A Perfect Desktop Operating System?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1009751 - Dec 2009 (5
| comments)
|
| _Haiku_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=826986 - Sept
| 2009 (29 comments)
|
| _Haiku Project Announces Availability of Haiku R1 /Alpha 1_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=820844 - Sept 2009 (20
| comments)
|
| _Haiku OS first alpha scheduled for September 6th_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=767766 - Aug 2009 (11
| comments)
|
| _BeOS Lives: Haiku Impresses_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=475756 - Feb 2009 (19
| comments)
| hankman86 wrote:
| Beyond the nostalgia: are there any other reasons to keep
| contributing to Haiku? Like critical infrastructure that is
| reliant on BeOS/Haiku. Or anything you can plausibly do best on
| Haiku?
| unixhero wrote:
| It's just a fun OS
| waddlesplash wrote:
| It's an alternative to the fragmented state of the "Linux
| desktop": instead of having dozens of separate projects (GNOME,
| PipeWire, systemd, Wayland, ...) be combined by yet another
| project (a distribution), which is (in my view) a major cause
| of the fragile nature, slow pace of development (it's hard to
| request features if you have to spend minutes to hours figuring
| out where they need to be requested from!), and other problems
| it faces, Haiku is a one-project-governs-all: a single
| development team for the core operating system and userspace
| ("desktop environment"), with an interconnected distribution
| ecosystem.
|
| We can merge a change to Haiku's kernel and drivers, and test
| builds will be available with it on the "nightly" channel
| within hours. We can issue a patch for the system C library
| headers, trigger rebuilds of packages from the ports tree
| against it as soon as CI builds finish. We can send users
| experimental builds of work-in-progress features for testing,
| with very little technical know-how required to install such a
| patch or revert to the previous version if it breaks something.
|
| There are so many huge advantages Haiku has due to how the
| project is structured that the "Linux desktop", whatever
| upsides it does possess, basically cannot ever have by its very
| nature.
| guenthert wrote:
| > instead of having dozens of separate projects (GNOME,
| PipeWire, systemd, Wayland, ...) be combined by yet another
| project (a distribution), which is (in my view) a major cause
| of the fragile nature, slow pace of development (it's hard to
| request features if you have to spend minutes to hours
| figuring out where they need to be requested from!), and
| other problems it faces, Haiku is a one-project-governs-all:
| a single development team for the core operating system and
| userspace ("desktop environment"), with an interconnected
| distribution ecosystem.
|
| So there will never be 3rd party software? Not even a GNU
| Emacs? Surely you're using GNU GCC, aren't you?
| nix23 wrote:
| Have your read the release-notes? Hint emacs. It's about
| the coresystems (network, graphic, sound, storage), the bsd
| systems do that (partially) so is windows and macos.
| guenthert wrote:
| What I tried to convey is that this is an arbitrary line
| to draw. What difference does it make to an user whether
| graphic and network bugs can be reported to the same
| organisation, but bugs in the IDE (I'm thinking of
| IntelliJ here, not Emacs) go somewhere else vs. all bugs
| go to their respective software package's bug tracker?
|
| There was a time when DEC or IBM could act as a single
| point of contact for all your software needs, but we live
| in a much more diverse world now and the all-inclusive
| software offering / SPOC is just not a realistic or
| (IMHO) desirable target anymore.
| nix23 wrote:
| The arbitrary line is normally base to 3rd party, the
| line is blurry, but you read too much in in, just compare
| it with macOS would you?
| pjmlp wrote:
| The difference is not to which organization to report,
| rather having a cohesive arquitecture design of the OS
| stack instead of a bunch of lego bricks with incompatible
| pins.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| Mostly for fun. Something kinda helped by that Haiku retains
| some interesting concepts (e.g. built to have small footprint,
| written in C++, object-oriented and concept-oriented API,
| database-like filesystem, replicants, standard scripting
| mechanism, ...) and being enough different from other Unix-like
| systems.
| donatj wrote:
| As a BeOS users in the late 90's / early 2000's - the fact that
| Haiku is still going twenty years since its first inception is
| just incredible to me.
|
| I am continually amazed at how much progress the project
| continues to garner. It really proves there was something magical
| to BeOS.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| It's not just that there was something magical to BeOS, there's
| still something magical to Haiku, especially in the era of the
| "Linux desktop" with its free-for-all fractured ecosystem
| approach to desktop environments. We aren't working on Haiku
| just because it reminds us of the past, but because we think it
| could be the future, too.
| hankman86 wrote:
| This deserves to be expanded on: I very much see the need for
| innovation in OS research. But I just don't see anything in
| BeOS/Haiku that would address any of the big challenges for
| operating systems. Which in my mind include the following:
|
| Can we get away from the "leaky bucket" security paradigm
| where despite all of the best efforts and gradual
| improvements, prevalent operating systems "keep on giving" in
| terms of exploits that are discovered all the time. Is there
| something akin to what Rust is for programming languages?
|
| Or what about an operating system for AIs? Is the current
| stack of Linux, GPU drivers, and some ML SDK on top an
| adequate answer for emerging AI applications?
|
| Or if you still believe in Blockchain applications, what
| about a native OS for that?
|
| And the list goes on.
|
| All I see in Haiku/BeOS is a pretty, albeit dated user
| interface. Someone educate me what else they bring to the
| table.
| [deleted]
| pacifika wrote:
| You're listing tech that didn't exist when Haiku started so
| how could it address those things?
|
| Haiku is an OS for endusers.
| christophilus wrote:
| It screams on super underpowered hardware. That's a nice
| benefit over just about any modern OS.
| ako wrote:
| Could also help with some of our biggest issues: use less
| energy, reduce energy costs, go green, use your existing
| hardware longer, less need for producing new things.
| DragonMaus wrote:
| > And the list goes on.
|
| I would be keen to see more of this list, as two of the
| three items you mentioned are not at all interesting or
| useful to me (and, I would presume, to a majority of other
| users).
|
| Even the other item (#1) is somewhat academic, as modern
| security practices are generally "good enough" for most
| people in most use cases. (That is, there is certainly room
| for improvement, but where we are now isn't nearly as bad
| as it could be.)
| als0 wrote:
| > Is there something akin to what Rust is for programming
| languages?
|
| Check out the Genode OS framework
| Ygg2 wrote:
| Sometimes making a better UX Operating system is enough.
| Gualdrapo wrote:
| Forgive me but as I can appreciate the effort put into Haiku
| and working on a single user targeted OS, I still can't get
| why the people behind it like to throw darts to Linux from
| time to time. That "era of the Linux desktop" phrase is
| something even we Linux desktop users themselves will laugh
| at, as there is not such thing.
|
| Praising the positives of your work at the expense of the
| criticism of other's work won't do you any favours.
| LeFantome wrote:
| I do not think they are throwing darts. My read is that
| they are making the following two points:
|
| - the "Open Source Desktop" is pretty much a Linux
| monoculture and they are an alternative to that
|
| - the Haiku philosophy is to offer a unified and consistent
| user experience vs a collection of a thousand independent
| projects approach ( the Linux experience )
|
| - Haiku offers everything needed for a desktop experience
| under the banner of a single project ( another way of
| saying the previous point )
| waddlesplash wrote:
| I think you are reading a little too much into it. Linux
| people throw darts at Haiku ("why would you ever use this
| and not Linux?" etc.) so it seems only fair we throw a few
| back. Many of us have desktop Linux installs, and some of
| us even have patches (or even have contributed significant
| amounts of work) in various Linux ecosystem projects.
| Gualdrapo wrote:
| > "why would you ever use this and not Linux?"
|
| That seems to be a legitimate question, not a dart nor a
| criticism by any means.
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Sometimes it is, and you can see elsewhere I've given
| real answers to that question.
|
| But sometimes my criticisms of Linux are because, well,
| they are a real and genuine motivation for why I gave up
| on desktop Linux and devoted even more time to Haiku.
| It's not as if my criticisms are anything new, there's
| pages upon pages where Linux users and developers say
| similar things. I "throw such darts" here to make it
| clear how Haiku stands in contrast.
| sho_hn wrote:
| Isn't adding X11 and Wayland and Wine getting you the same
| free-for-all toolkit and app mix in the end?
| waddlesplash wrote:
| Free-for-all in terms of toolkit and application mix, yes,
| but that's actually the "lesser" problem of the Linux
| desktop. Ideally we would have all-native applications, but
| not even macOS can really manage that.
|
| The X11 and Wayland compatibility layers are very different
| than XQuartz macOS or the Wayland-based WSL GUI are, they
| are much more tightly integrated into Haiku. While you are
| still going to notice some seams here and there, overall
| the experience is much more like a "full port" than most
| other OSes have on this point.
|
| More to the point, all ported applications are still
| running on top of Haiku's kernel, Haiku's window manager /
| display server, Haiku's media services, Haiku's init
| system, Haiku's package manager, etc. On Linux, all those
| things come from separate projects, and some of them can
| even be swapped out within a Linux distribution, never mind
| between distributions. Not so on Haiku.
| sho_hn wrote:
| Many of the apps are designed to the conventions of the
| various desktop environments on Linux (or Windows, in
| case of Wine), and feel most at home in one of them.
| Without additional effort to e.g. implement D-Bus and XDG
| portals, having a Qt or GTK app run will mean those apps
| open File Open/Save dialogs that are not the native Haiku
| ones. In the end it will be a fractured feel as well.
|
| I hear what you're saying and I do understand the point
| you're trying to make. However, I think it's interesting
| to point out just how app-centric systems have become,
| with many apps even shipping essentially their own unique
| HIG and look and feel.
|
| If you look at Haiku's competitors, 10 years ago they
| were all much more editorialized with a strong sense of
| what a proper, native app for them should look like. And
| despite all having more such native apps than Haiku has
| now, the trends have - at least for the time being -
| pulled away from that. If Haiku gets more popular it'll
| similarly become subject to simply running the most
| popular software.
| Ygg2 wrote:
| That's the issue with specific GUI toolkit.
|
| Haiku has its own set of tools.
|
| As long as it's integrated it might avoid Lisp Curse of
| Linux. It's too easy to fork and too hard to reintegrate.
| rayiner wrote:
| That's a good observation. In many ways your approach is
| like Carbon on MacOS, or the bajillion UI toolkits that
| exist on top of the same display driver, clipboard, etc.,
| infrastructure in Windows.
| kristopolous wrote:
| I've spoken to some of the developers. There's a community of
| admiration and integrity that is really solid. You get the
| strong feeling that they enjoy each other and that's what
| drives them. It was obvious to me why it was still going after
| talking to a few people.
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