[HN Gopher] Web IDE Beta
___________________________________________________________________
Web IDE Beta
Author : notpushkin
Score : 249 points
Date : 2022-12-21 08:53 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (docs.gitlab.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (docs.gitlab.com)
| WFHRenaissance wrote:
| I've been using a web IDE in Gitlab for months... what changed?
| john_cogs wrote:
| GitLab team member here.
|
| We released a beta version of our new Web IDE which is built
| using VS Code. The new Web IDE will provide users access to
| more features, improved performance, and the ability to
| securely connect to a remote development environment directly
| from the Web IDE.
| jamisonbryant wrote:
| With all due respect (big GitLab fan here) there are at least
| two features that are missing that for me makes this product
| unusable:
|
| 1. Inability to switch branches in the editor [0]
|
| 2. Full project search "to be enabled at a later date"
|
| So I can't switch branches off of the default branch and I
| can't search the entire project. To me, this undermines your
| claim that the new web IDE "will provide users access to more
| features" and in fact I don't find it useful for hardly
| anything in its current state.
|
| I get that it's a beta, but it seems a very incomplete one,
| at best.
|
| [0]: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-web-ide/-/issues/72
| john_cogs wrote:
| Appreciate the feedback.
|
| A link to the Epic for full project search[0] was shared in
| an earlier comment[1] by Eric, the Product Manager who is
| leading this effort. You can follow along there to track
| our progress.
|
| In the meantime, you can disable the beta and continue to
| use the old Web IDE until all of the features you require
| are available[2].
|
| [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34080388
|
| [1] - https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/9466
|
| [2] - https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/web_ide_beta/
| index.h...
| jamisonbryant wrote:
| Thanks, I've enabled notifications on all the linked
| issues/epics. Eagerly anticipating the next release.
| milohax wrote:
| GitLab Support team member here.
|
| As a work-around, if you know the name of the existing
| branch you want to switch to, you can change the URL in
| your browser's location bar for the IDE. Here's the URL
| format: https://gitlab.com/-/ide/project/
| <namespace>/[<subgroup>/...]<project>/edit/<branch>/-/
|
| This will re-load the IDE on the different branch.
|
| You can also switch branches in the GitLab UI's Files view,
| before launching the Web IDE with the "Web IDE" button (or
| the `.` shortcut).
|
| Also pressing "Web IDE" from an MR in GitLab will open that
| MR's branch in the Web IDE.
|
| So it depends upon your workflow currently, but I agree it
| will be nice to be able to swap within the IDE itself later
| (also when the GitLab Flow extension is added).
|
| The built-in git support in Code is already an improvement
| over the old Web IDE's Stage/Commit workflow, IMHO, and
| after the first load, the new Web IDE also loads faster
| than the old one, for me at least.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > improved performance
|
| Huh, that's surprising but probably good. My initial reaction
| on reading that you were replacing your own thing with VSC
| was something like "aw, now it'll be too slow to use". Hope
| you're right:)
| jenny91 wrote:
| I wish Gitlab would just fix up their existing product instead of
| increasing the surface area. Every month they put out a security
| release that often contains a couple of "high severity" bugs and
| every couple of months there's a "critical" one. And they're not
| rocket science either, simple auth check bypasses and so on.
| Clearly something's not going right in the culture if you have
| multiple critical security bugs every year.
|
| I am increasingly antsy about hosting my private Gitlab instance
| on the web, and this does not reduce that.
| zachruss92 wrote:
| I got burned so many times by GitLab I can't in good conscience
| use them anymore. I always try to use an OSS product when I
| can, but I literally lost a client a few years back because we
| couldn't do a deploy because GL was down. For now I use GH for
| critical projects and a self hosted Gitea instance when it's
| not super critical.
| AlexErrant wrote:
| To be fair, Github actions has a spotty record as well.
| https://www.githubstatus.com/history
| choward wrote:
| One of the benefits of gitlab is you can host it yourself.
| Github has also had outages.
| kayson wrote:
| Curious if anyone has gotten a remote extension (MS or otherwise)
| working on vscodium. I tried but could never get it working so I
| reluctantly switched to vscode proper.
| rkagerer wrote:
| I bet this eventually evolves into something like "VB for the
| modern web" where you go to the website, just start coding, and
| all the heavy-lifting of app hosting is taken care of for you.
| Next up, a visual point-and-draw editor.
| holografix wrote:
| How realistic is it to move to the Jetbrains light weight
| editor crm VSCode?
| Hamuko wrote:
| That sort of already exists in AWS, where Lambda allows you to
| just write business logic inside the browser without having to
| worry anything about hosting, and Step Functions allows you to
| do drag-and-drop various other AWS services into a state
| machine. Granted, I'm not sure how much utility you can derive
| from Step Functions if you also don't write Lambda functions.
| psnehanshu wrote:
| But the interface is very cumbersome. Not very productive. To
| be productive as a developer, you need a lot of other things
| that VS code provides, but not the Lambda editor.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Glitch.com is the close to this (not the visual part).
|
| Divjoy and others have a nice drag/drop - there are variants on
| this theme.
|
| Maybe someone can bring this all together.
|
| Kind of like "nocode-at-first-but-really-there-is-code-if-you-
| need-to-edit-it"
|
| Or as you say: VB.
|
| Or better: Access for the modern web.
| samwillis wrote:
| Glitch is awesome, however it seems somewhat neglected. I
| know it's geared towards Node development, but last I looked
| earlier this year it was still on Python 3.6.
|
| Other than that it provides the best experience of being able
| to throw up demos and allow people to fork and modify them.
| pjmlp wrote:
| This already exists for a while in the enterprise space, see
| stuff like OutSystems for example.
|
| Or Microsoft's Power Apps.
| jug wrote:
| Also, don't forget a whole slew of AI assisted coding and
| design features.
| user3939382 wrote:
| I tried the JetBrains remote IDE, it was awful. Sad since I'm
| sure it was amazingly hard to get to that point and they poured a
| lot into it. There's just so many resources and so much process
| tied to the local environment outside the IDE, this was light
| years away from making sense. I'm keeping an open mind, though,
| maybe some day.
| berkle4455 wrote:
| Try VSCode Remote, works wonders and simply.
| nightski wrote:
| This is one area I'll never jump ship. I like developing the
| code I write on a local machine. If some day in the distant
| future we are required to use cloud servers to develop, I'm
| out. Done. Adios.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| What's the issue with developing on cloud servers?
|
| Computing on a remote computer has a rich history going
| back to the terminals of the 60s and 70s and has never
| really gone out of style.
|
| VSCode is just the latest iteration.
| berkle4455 wrote:
| I prefer the remote setup because my dev machines are
| nearly identical to the production machines in every
| aspect. I can have a fresh new machine online in minutes,
| so can the rest of my team, or a new hire. All our code
| runs close to the data. My dev instance is significantly
| more powerful than my laptop. I switch between a desktop
| and laptop across a given day but my dev box doesn't
| change.
|
| I'm not sold on the "in a browser" setup that this post is
| selling, I still run VSCode natively and also use it for my
| terminal shell.
| acdha wrote:
| Why is your position so absolute? There are trade-offs and
| as engineers we typically would balance those -- for
| example, local development avoids putting the network in
| the critical path while remote development allows perfect
| fidelity with your deployment environment, can be an
| important security win[1], and could make it easier to
| access resources which you don't have enough space or want
| to store locally.
|
| Neither of those is right or wrong globally: your
| particular situation will determine how much you weight
| each of them.
|
| 1. e.g. if you install the wrong Node module, it can still
| wreak havoc on your remote environment but it can't steal
| your local credentials, trojan your workstation, or attack
| your other projects -- and by splitting your credentials
| from the remote environment's you can usually run with a
| far more restricted set of permissions.
| oblio wrote:
| Interesting, I think several websites are doing this.
|
| I wonder if at some point VS Code will add some enterprise
| editions, these feel like the perfect place to do it.
| epolanski wrote:
| I think the biggest risk for those companies (see GitPod who
| had multiple blog posts about it) is that the good parts of VSC
| really are closed source or not MIT-licensed so you can't use
| things like share or extensions and many others.
|
| I think cloud vendors like gitlab and others should actually
| work on rewriting or maintaining a different fork or write an
| entirely different web editor altogether.
|
| VSC is not a piece of competitor-friendly software and most
| importantly it does not support mobile browsers so imho all
| these companies are locking themselves in the past as the need
| for mobile and tablet editing (even if limited) is going to
| keep rising and they are not offering it.
| easton wrote:
| VSC does have reasonable support for tablet editing, there
| was a big push to make it fully compatible with Safari on the
| iPad when Codespaces was first in beta. You're right about
| mobile though, it's a nightmare.
| oblio wrote:
| Do people do that much code editing on their phone, though?
|
| People don't really optimize for 0.001% of use cases.
| josephd79 wrote:
| deadlines are for real...
| TAForObvReasons wrote:
| VSCodium, aka VSCode without the Microsoft proprietary bits,
| uses https://open-vsx.org/ as the extension registry. The
| hard problem is convincing devs to cross-publish
| andrew_ wrote:
| I have a few extensions, notably an update to subtle-
| brackets, which I cross-published. It's relatively painless
| - Eclipse running Open VSX is clunky, but no more clunky
| and UX-weird than the marketplace (which holy shit, talk
| about terrible UX). The issue is that VSCodium has holes,
| and not all extensions will run correctly.
|
| I'd like to see a hard fork for VSCodium, where the
| community could make UX/DX upgrades that VSCode's
| Microsoft-employed gatekeepers have summarily shut down
| time and time again (see: issues on the find/replace
| dialogs)
| dromtrund wrote:
| I have published some extensions with about 300k users in
| total. So far, I've only had two people ask me to publish
| on open-vsx. I did make one attempt, but something broke in
| the signup procedure, and it took 3 weeks for someone from
| support to come back to me with a fix, so I had moved on.
|
| If more people were asking for it, I would try again, but
| the time spent per user to set up a pipeline for each
| extension just doesn't make sense at the moment. I'd rather
| spend those nights adding features for the existing
| mainline users. Cynical perhaps, but there's no reward for
| making extensions, so there's a limited amount of time I
| can spend on it.
| lozenge wrote:
| They have one, it's called GitHub Codespaces. (Remember, nobody
| wants to sell software any more, only services).
|
| Microsoft's strategy is to build a moat around VS Code/GitHub.
| Compared to GitLab, they have:
|
| * Brand recognition of VS Code
|
| * VS Code extension gallery that only VS Code can connect to
|
| * Buttons in the Desktop version of VS Code to connect to
| GitHub Codespaces, Azure etc
|
| * MS-written closed source extensions- Pylance, parts of
| OmniSharp, Remote SSH, Remote Containers, Remote WSL, Live
| Share, GitHub Copilot, IntelliCode, Python WASM In the Browser,
| GitHub Codespaces integration.
|
| * Control over the VS Code API. They can add just the
| functionality their extensions need and nothing more.
|
| * They own the LSP specs. They can add just the functionality
| that VS Code implements and nothing more.
|
| * Control over the VS Code "proposed" API. If you want to use
| these APIs in your extension, you have to be whitelisted by
| Microsoft (or ask users to install a non-VS Code version of VS
| Code). Gitlab can offer a Web IDE, they can't offer integration
| with desktop VS Code to provide those nice features like
| desktop-level keyboard shortcuts, Git Clone, compare with
| working tree, etc as that would use the "proposed" APIs.
| maegul wrote:
| This. We need to remember this if we're to use VS Code and
| any of their LSPs.
| lozenge wrote:
| Right, I just realised the GitLab Web IDE is running fully in
| the browser, so there is no Terminal. Maybe they are
| considering a later version which is more like Codespaces,
| letting you develop and run your code, keeping the browser as
| the user interface.
| oblio wrote:
| https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/web_ide_beta/#known
| -...
| lioeters wrote:
| > Known issues
|
| > The Web Terminal and Live Preview are not available in
| the Web IDE Beta.
|
| > These features may become available at a later date.
| eschurter wrote:
| Hi, GitLab PM for the Web IDE and Remote Development here!
| You're right, the Web IDE itself is running fully in the
| browser, but if you try to open a new Terminal panel you'll
| see that it can be configured to connect to a remote host.
| The setup (for now) requires a bit of manual config on your
| end but we're working on making that easier in the future!
|
| This blog post gives a little more high level overview of
| the current functionality and where we're headed:
| https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2022/12/15/get-ready-for-
| new-g...
|
| For a deeper dive you can check out our Remote Development
| [direction page](https://about.gitlab.com/direction/create/
| editor/remote_deve...) and [documentation](https://docs.git
| lab.com/ee/user/project/remote_development/)
| Hamuko wrote:
| "Only results from opened files are shown. Full project search to
| be enabled at a later date."
|
| Rather useless at the moment. I at least can't really work around
| in a codebase without project search.
| perryizgr8 wrote:
| Github had the same limitation initially but they have fixed it
| lately. It downloads an index in the browser and uses it for
| search. I guess Gitlab can do the same, they just didn't get
| around to implementing it in the first version.
| eschurter wrote:
| GitLab PM for the Web IDE here. You're right! You can follow
| our progress in https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-
| org/-/epics/9466
| kavalerov wrote:
| This looks really great, and nice to see both Github and Gitlab
| moving in this direction - ability to have IDE in the browser is
| great for many use-cases.
|
| However, I am a bit worried that it looks like most of these
| companies and up using VSCode. It really needs to have a good
| competitor in this space, and I hope JetBrains can match that
| eventually with partnerships of their own.
| nabaraz wrote:
| For what's its worth, I've not moved away from Sublime Text. I
| hope it stays competitive for the foreseeable future.
| mikro2nd wrote:
| Interestingly, Netbeans (though strongly Java focussed at the
| time) once had a fantastic collaborative coding plugin at one
| time, based on XMPP. It got killed because Sun wanted to foist
| their own "via Sun servers" thing on everybody. Needless to
| say, _both_ solutions died on the vine. How sad.
|
| Browser-based BS... I'm never going to buy it. Personal
| prediction (contact me if you're willing to put Swiss money on
| it; I am!) - in 5 to 8 years' time the pendulum will be
| swinging back to device-/locally-hosted apps because of
| $unforeseen-issues. And fashion.
| endtime wrote:
| I don't know what will happen to it as a public consumer
| product, but Google's internal browser-based hosted VS Code
| (Cider V) is great.
| morelisp wrote:
| JetBrains seems to be forging ahead with their own Space
| project and not trying to partner too closely with any existing
| forge. They seem to understand "IDE-in-browser" undermines
| their fundamental market position; they need to make people not
| need the browser in the first place, to retain it.
| canadianfella wrote:
| mgkimsal wrote:
| Would be sorta nice if their 'issue tracking' functionality
| in their IDEs would support... Space itself.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > They seem to understand "IDE-in-browser" undermines their
| fundamental market position
|
| How so?
|
| They've recently rolled out the "gateway" product, which is
| basically a remote IDE. Sure, you still connect to that with
| a local one, but the local one doesn't do that much. Why not
| move it to a browser? The remote one does all the things
| people love about their IDEs. And if people don't care,
| they're probably not using their products anyway.
|
| The only issue I'd have with a browser, is that I usually use
| Vim keybindings, which I've never seen well implemented. My
| favorite being the window intercepting ^W.
| zamalek wrote:
| There's actually a few products.
|
| Gateway is a remote IDE in the browser, it's a rewrite of
| their front-end (Spring I think?) to marshal the UI over
| HTTP.
|
| Remote is similar to VSCode. The IDE is split into a front-
| end and a backend: the UI stuff happens locally, and does
| RPC to the backend for file access, terminal, language
| server, what-not.
| [deleted]
| btown wrote:
| JetBrains' fundamental market position is that companies pay
| per seat for an it-just-works IDE. So if anything, IDE-in-
| browser, where code is executing on a hosted backend, is even
| more aligned with this.
|
| The real question is whether they can execute on this. Will
| they be able to replicate years of VS Code's work on
| providing UI extensibility without sacrificing performance,
| with a team that historically had been JVM rather than JS/TS
| experts? Will they be able to build the right abstractions to
| allow for temporary network outages and all the distributed-
| systems challenges that come with that? It's quite a moonshot
| to get to the level that people expect of VS Code, especially
| as Microsoft has access to relatively-limitless capital in
| ways that JetBrains, which has not taken outside investment,
| does not.
| theptip wrote:
| I'm confused by this comment. Why do they need to move to
| browser-based JS/TS?
|
| Their existing toolchain is all about doing everything in
| the IDE. (Remote dev envs, code review, all of it).
|
| Am I missing something? I haven't seen anything which
| suggests they are going down the path you refer to here. A
| local client they own is their differentiator over the
| browser, why would they abandon that?
| tomnipotent wrote:
| > Am I missing something?
|
| Fleet (https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/).
|
| They're building a distributed IDE. A web-based UI would
| fit nicely into their new roadmap.
| theptip wrote:
| I dunno, most of the stuff in Fleet looks to me like it
| benefits from being a native thin-client rather than a
| browser-based app (e.g. SSH to your remotes, run the
| language server locally, etc).
|
| I can see that a web-UI option could be built atop the
| "Space-hosted everything" architecture they are putting
| together, but I don't see any evidence that's actually
| what their core strategy is, as GP suggested. They spend
| a bunch of time discussing running things on "Your
| machine" too, which doesn't sound like a browser-first
| strategy.
|
| As I see it, their secret sauce is building client-side
| applications that are faster than other companies can
| build. I just don't see them giving up that performance
| edge to make a browser-based client their primary
| strategy.
| nigamanth wrote:
| JetBrains gives products in very niche areas. WebStorm for JS,
| PHPStorm for PHP, RubyMine for Ruby, and GoLand for GoLang.
|
| Visual Studio Code is used by people who like to many
| languages, but more specifically for someone who's job is to
| work with JavaScript then WebStorm is much better. JetBrains
| could very well combine all these IDEs into one, but then again
| think about the amount of space and data of this new IDE.
| chronofar wrote:
| Aside from the newly introduced Fleet the other commenter
| pointed out, Jetbrains' IDEA Ultimate can include all the
| functionality of all the individual niche products (via
| plugins), so you could just use a single Jetbrains IDE for
| most any language/flow you choose. I personally kind of like
| to keep them separate so I can keep different envs configured
| the way I most often use them, but you could just use the
| single IDE for all.
| pjmlp wrote:
| No you can't, because JetBrains refuses to have Clion
| plugins into InteliJ, it is the only Java IDE that doesn't
| support mixed language development.
| perrylaj wrote:
| C/C++ is only 'one language' (I know, but for sake of
| this discussion, may as well be), and even then, Intellij
| does just fine for me, even if it's not on par with
| Clion. To say it doesn't support mixed language
| development is silly. In one sizeable project I have
| python, js, TS, kotlin, Java, bash, groovy, even a little
| C. All of it works in Intellij ultimate with code
| completion, refactoring, goto definition, find usages,
| etc. And it does it does better and faster than the same
| project when attempting to use VSCode. VSCode starts
| getting real slow trying to find references and whatnot
| on significant size projects, and the refactoring is
| night and day better in Intellij.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Since when does InteliJ support JNI debugging?!?
|
| Android Studio's C++ support is done by Google's own
| licensed CLion for integrating it into a proper
| development experience.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I thought it was weird when Jetbrains started to split up
| their product into language-specific products, but given
| how many people say they use WebStorm or an other niche
| product, and who say they use multiple, I can't blame
| Jetbrains - I think that in hindsight it was a great
| business move. An expensive "I can do everything" product
| has a higher barrier to entry than a specialized product.
|
| Personally I've been using Ultimate on and off over the
| years, since I've never really stuck to any one language;
| at my previous job it was a mix of PHP / JS (Dojo), Go,
| Typescript, and sometimes (reading) C code which didn't
| quite work right in Ultimate.
|
| VS Code can do all that too, but only intellij was able to
| actually help me with stuff - things like set the version
| of PHP to 5.2 so it warns me if I tried to use the PHP 5.3
| array shorthand. (I did not choose PHP by the way and the
| project was to replace it)
| mdaniel wrote:
| > I thought it was weird when Jetbrains started to split
| up their product into language-specific products
|
| They're for different audiences; the hurdle of trying to
| explain to a JS dev "yeah, I know when it starts up it
| asks for a Maven/Gradle/JVM, but just ignore that and
| open a directory after you install the following 8
| plugins" is bad DX. As others have said, the standalone
| products are not feature parity with the IJ plugins. I
| have _no idea_ why that is, or what incentives are
| driving that, but for the time being it is what it is
| brabel wrote:
| Can confirm... IDEA Ultimate (and Community to a lesser
| extent) lets me write code in Java, Groovy, Kotlin (and
| with slightly fewer features, but still really good
| support), Go, Rust, JavaScript, TypeScript, and of course,
| HTML/CSS... probably more but those are what I normally
| use.
|
| VS Code is getting support for all the newer languages
| though... similar to how it used to be before with Eclipse
| (for those who remember the multitude of Eclipse-based IDEs
| for niche uses in the 2000's) and emacs (which still gets
| support for most esoteric langs, even if half baked, pretty
| quickly)... for example, I can use Zig in both emacs and VS
| Code, but not IntelliJ (I think they are writing one , but
| it was really unusable when I last checked it out). And
| stuff like Julia, Common Lisp.... I tend to go to emacs for
| those... but apparently supporting VS Code is high priority
| for even these languages nowadays.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| > Visual Studio Code is used by people who like to many
| languages
|
| I don't like these language. I'm forced to write them. I
| didn't ask for terraform, typescript, CSS, HTML, yaml, xml,
| JSON, and everything else.
|
| > for someone who's job is to work with JavaScript then
| WebStorm is much better
|
| It's never been my experience that a full IDE is better for
| dynamic interpreted languages. Maybe if you're used to that
| from writing C# or Java it's nice, but I'll sooner take vi.
|
| But like you said, thanks to lots of people that came before
| me, I'm not just writing one language, I'm writing many.
| Right now, I have tabs open with eight different languages. I
| need something that's suitable at everything, not just one
| language.
| j-krieger wrote:
| Have you ever tried .NET?
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I grew up writing VB6 and moved to VS .Net 2003. In
| college I happily wrote C# in vim.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Try pycharm. It does fantastic error checking that you'd
| normally need to test the code for. For example, it will
| infer types for variables and then highlight lines that
| will cause problems at runtime. It's saved me days of
| testing the first week I used it.
| hackertyper69 wrote:
| does pycharm work with C++ and VHDL?
| lallysingh wrote:
| No, it's python-specific. I was responding to parent's
| remark on dynamic languages. C++ is reasonably well
| served by CLion. I don't know what works for VHDL.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I already use mypy with vscode for Python. The type
| checker is the same one that runs in CI.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Sorry, what happened to `vi`?
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I use it when it makes sense. My point is that on the
| spectrum of IDE <--> text editor, I'd much rather take
| the text editor than the IDE. The performance and ease of
| use of a simple text editor vastly dominates whatever
| convenience(s) the IDE claims to provide. Vscode is my
| usually my daily driver, as it's fast, has effective
| built-in refactoring tools, and has a decent plugin
| ecosystem.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Nothing? It's a good text editor, but it's not an IDE
| dmitriid wrote:
| > It's never been my experience that a full IDE is better
| for dynamic interpreted languages.
|
| IntelliJ IDEs are very good at figuring out dynamic
| languages, but on top of that they also know a lot of
| tooling and frameworks. So even if you have dynamic Python,
| but use it in Django, IDEA/PyCharm will be able to give you
| completions, code navigation, and refactoring just by the
| virtue of knowing what goes where in Django.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I get that from vscode and pylance/mypy already. I get
| the same thing with vscode and sorbet for Ruby. Why would
| I go through all the trouble of using IntelliJ for that?
| dmitriid wrote:
| For everything listed in the "Working with source code"
| menu: https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/working-
| with-source-c... (and others like
| https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/web-
| frameworks.html)
|
| Some of it made its way into VS Code, but many things
| definitely didn't (because they require more than just
| LSP and reuire someone to write a bunch of analysis tools
| for the python integration).
| rzzzt wrote:
| Have I got news for you!
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/fleet/2022/10/introducing-the-
| fle...
| wolletd wrote:
| I've seen Fleet in my JB Toolbox, but haven't touched it
| yet.
|
| But it is the obvious move. All the current JB IDEs are
| built upon the same basic IntelliJ platform, anyway.
|
| It's "only" a matter of restructuring all that to have only
| one IDE where you can opt-in to support specific languages
| and now you have something like VSCode.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| You already have that with Idea, with a few exceptions
| (C/C++, and possibly C#).
|
| You can install the Python plugin & friends -> PyCharm
|
| You can install the Go plugin -> Goland
|
| Etc
| notpushkin wrote:
| I'm not sure why, but nobody I know uses this setup -
| everybody has 2-3 separate IDEs (one for backend, one for
| frontend etc).
|
| The initial reason behind having separate IDEs for every
| language, or so I was told, was using different
| keybindings. This way, XCode users could easily switch to
| AppCode, Visual Studio users - to Rider etc. - without
| the need to re-learn anything. (This is the reason I
| still have Atom keybindings in my Codium setup.)
|
| But why would anyone want to use different IDEs with
| different keybindings is a complete mystery to me.
| abhijat wrote:
| I may be mistaken but AFAIK plugins are not always at
| feature parity with the full jetbrains IDEs. For example
| the rust plugin in intellij did not support debugging but
| the one in CLion did (I think this is fixed now).
|
| The python plugin in intellij was a little inferior to
| Pycharm for Django (pycharm had deeper support for the
| django ORM) and so on.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I think the reason for the difference between clion and
| idea for the rust plugin is that clion seems somehow
| different "on a lower level". It still has support for
| profiling and valgrind, which Idea lacks [0].
|
| Regarding Django, do you have some examples? I'm
| admittedly not a hardcore Django user, but I haven't seen
| any difference between the two.
|
| [0] https://github.com/intellij-rust/intellij-
| rust#compatible-id...
| iudqnolq wrote:
| Like my sibling described there are weird quirks. The
| bigger problem is that this isn't a well documented and
| supported path. And if you wanted to spend time fiddling
| with my IDE you wouldn't be using Jetbrains.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| That's absurd! I've used the same IDEA Ultimate instance
| for all languages I touch. Often 3 in the same project.
| Haven't seen the point of having separate
| IDEA/Webstorm/Pycharm instances when one delivers all the
| functionality of the others.
|
| I'm looking forward to Fleet, watching it closely. But it
| still has some kinks preventing me from adopting it. Once
| they polish up the elixir-ls integration I'll give it a
| serious shot.
| j-krieger wrote:
| This is only for most surface level features. The Idea
| PyCharm plugins lack scientific mode for example.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| What do you mean by "scientific modes"? Jupyter
| notebooks?
|
| I've never used that, so I don't know what it is exactly
| nor how to compare. But, although the product comparison
| page [0] says idea lacks it, there's a doc page that says
| it has it [1]. It also shows up in the settings window of
| my IdeaU with Python plugin.
|
| According to this other comparison page [2], it would
| actually seem that the Idea plugin does _more_ than
| Pycharm.
|
| [0] https://www.jetbrains.com/products/compare/?product=i
| dea&pro...
|
| [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/jupyter-notebook-
| support...
|
| [2] https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/articles/PY-A-44237640
| [deleted]
| andrew_ wrote:
| The way that VS Code is spreading, and the stranglehold
| Microsoft has on development and direction of the product, give
| me very strong IE4/5/6 vibes. I really hope some of the open
| source alternatives that aren't corporation-controlled gain
| traction over the next year.
| RunSet wrote:
| > I really hope some of the open source alternatives that
| aren't corporation-controlled gain traction over the next
| year.
|
| Shout out to CodeLite.
|
| https://codelite.org/
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodeLite
| I_complete_me wrote:
| I randomly typed in the word "lines" into a pacman search
| and discovered the existence of the lines IDE [0]. Never
| heard it mentioned anywhere before. I know nothing about
| it, I was just experimenting with pacman search out of
| boredom.
|
| [0] https://www.creatixbih.com/lines/
| tomjen3 wrote:
| There is a difference, and that is that you can use something
| like Jetbrains and your coworker can use VSCode with issues,
| but if 99% of people use a browser that renders HTML/CSS
| differently (and I will argue better than the competition at
| the time) then you are forced to acquiesce to it.
| mminer237 wrote:
| Unlike IE, VS Code is open source though. If Microsoft does
| some terrible thing with VS Code, the community can just
| switch to VSCodium: https://vscodium.com/
| djbusby wrote:
| Can? The time to support FOSS is now.
| thiht wrote:
| Which Visual Studio Code is.
| pionar wrote:
| It's not. VSC is a packaged version of the open-source
| code with proprietary bits added. Integration with the
| plugin marketplace, telemetry, etc. VSCodium does not
| have that.
|
| In addition, a lot of the good language plugins are
| proprietary, like PyLance and the C# plugin.
| cstejerean wrote:
| So it's time for the community to step up and write good
| (or even better) versions of those plugins?
|
| On the one hand sure I wish Microsoft open sourced more,
| at the same time what they already open sourced is a
| fantastic foundation for building upon.
|
| Instead of having to write an open source IDE from
| scratch we can leverage this one and then implement a few
| plugins for popular languages.
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| > Integration with the plugin marketplace
|
| This is a big one. A lot of the value of VSCode comes
| from its plugins, and M$ doesn't allow VSCodium to access
| them.
| thiht wrote:
| https://open-vsx.org
|
| https://open-vsx.org/extension/sugatoray/vscode-
| remotework-e...
|
| https://open-vsx.org/extension/ms-python/python
| andrew_ wrote:
| And vscode core isn't without its issues, it's not
| straightforward to fork and build without running into
| userspace issues:
| https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues
| joshmanders wrote:
| You're just being pedantic now. VSCodium exists because
| VSCode is FOSS.
|
| Your complaint is with the binary that Microsoft ships,
| not with the codebase.
| morelisp wrote:
| Sounds to me like they've got sufficient fanboy mindshare
| to move fully into "extinguish" soon!
| dijit wrote:
| Parents complaint is that paying lip service to FOSS is
| exactly the "extend" part of "Embrace, Extend,
| Extinguish".
|
| A mantra that was famously internally coined at
| Microsoft[0], and was found during anti-monopoly
| proceedings.
|
| As such they will _always_ be looked at skeptically when
| adding proprietary things to open source things.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_e
| xtinguis...
| shkkmo wrote:
| This doesn't really match since the "Embrace" part is
| different.
|
| The classic formula was "embracing" an established
| standard, making proprietary extensions to that standard,
| then using the adoption of those proprietary extensions
| to extinguish the original standard's market share.
|
| In this case, Microsoft didn't embrace an existing code
| base or standard, they made one and open sourced it. What
| would the analagous "extinction" bere here? That they
| eventually stop releasing updates to VSCode as open
| source?
|
| While I agree that there is good reason to doubt
| Microsoft's intention to be a good steward of an open
| source project, this seems less like another iteration of
| that playbook and more like what a lot of "open source"
| for-profit companies do where they have an open core but
| keep many features proprietary so they can't be easily
| forked.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| > What would the analagous "extinction" bere here?
|
| Look at Android and how it is almost impossible to de-
| Google it for a live demonstration.
|
| (I don't think there is a market for developer tools,
| though.)
| shkkmo wrote:
| There are several android distros that provide support
| for a de-googled installation. Calling it "impossible"
| seems like a bit of a stretch, though there are
| definitely limitations, even with microg installed.
|
| I do think that the VSCode model is much more similar to
| the Android model (though Android is a more extreme
| version of the model) than either is to the "Embrace,
| Extend, Extinguish" model.
| taeric wrote:
| It is quite easy to see that the "embrace" is to release
| a core into the open source world. They embraced the idea
| of open source and released something, they extended the
| user base into the world of the non-free option. The
| thinking is if they can get a critical mass of folks onto
| the option that is non-free, they will extinguish the
| free option by no longer supporting it.
|
| And this is not much different from the things they did
| this with back in the day. Used to, you wouldn't target
| open source, as much as you would student audience. The
| battle used to be more over what corporate workforces
| would want and use. The open source development scene
| changed that a bit. Though, it is kind of... interesting
| to consider how many tools and ideas have been lost in
| that process.
| shkkmo wrote:
| > The thinking is if they can get a critical mass of
| folks onto the option that is non-free, they will
| extinguish the free option by no longer supporting it.
|
| I assume you mean "non-free" as in speech, not beer,
| since VSCode is free. Hasn't that "critical mass" been
| the case since day one? I can't imagine that VSCodium
| built binaries have ever had more than a tiny fraction of
| the user-base of VSCode? Thus I don't see how
| "Extinquish" plays a role here.
|
| I still think it makes more sense to think of the
| strategy as more akin to the FOSS-washing / freemium
| models used by many companies.
| tlonny wrote:
| I moved from vim to VS code as I found the vim IDE experience
| slightly lacking. Recently I've found myself getting more and
| more fed up with how sluggish VS code feels.
|
| With the push from a friend, I tried neovim with the
| requisite LS plugins and I'm never going back. It's lightning
| fast and has feature parity (at least the ones I use) with VS
| Code.
|
| Its a bit of a bitch to setup, but there are preconfigured
| solutions out there (NVChad, LunarVim, AstroVim) if you want
| to skip all that bullshit and just get coding...
|
| Definitely recommend giving it a go!
| sebular wrote:
| NvChad is excellent. I recently finished converting my
| older .vimrc-based configuration to an entirely lua-based
| one on top of the base NvChad setup and it's just perfect.
| dvko wrote:
| Seconded. Neovim with their built-in LSP is so good! Was a
| happy VSCode user for years but not very comfortable with
| how they're starting to push more and more proprietary
| pieces, so started looking for alternatives. Neovim fits
| the bill perfectly.
|
| Helix is another one to watch. Not quite at Neovim's level
| and may need some reprogramming of the vim muscle memory
| but definitely promising!
| throwawayJA1820 wrote:
| Replit should create a whitelist version of their product and
| offer it as web editor
| kapitanjakc wrote:
| Same RAM consumption?
| eschurter wrote:
| GitLab team member & PM for the Web IDE here! In our
| measurements the memory footprint was between 50-80% lower than
| the previous Web IDE. I'm not sure how it compares to other
| web-based instances of VS Code.
| alias_neo wrote:
| > with an implementation inspired by Visual Studio Code.
|
| Is this an indication of Gitlabs new "corporate" culture? The
| website already seems less "OSS" than it did, but to say
| "inspired by" is a hairline away from bullshit.
|
| It's not inspired by VSCode, it _is_ VSCode.
| john_cogs wrote:
| GitLab team member here.
|
| Thanks for the feedback.
|
| I created a merge request to update our documentation based on
| your comment and linked to the comment in the MR description:
| https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/merge_requests/107599
| lozenge wrote:
| According to Microsoft's trademark lawyers, it definitely isn't
| VS Code.
| [deleted]
| edgyquant wrote:
| The title says powered by
| alias_neo wrote:
| There is no such title on the actual Gitlab docs page it
| links to, and from where I retrieved the quoted text.
| maronato wrote:
| Which is odd because "powered" isn't written anywhere on the
| page.
| xigoi wrote:
| > Is this an indication of Gitlabs new "corporate" culture?
|
| New? GitLab has been corporate-y for a long time.
| aliswe wrote:
| I just want to ask: Why?
|
| Is this really something that will benefit Gitlab in the short,
| mid or long term?
| jostiniane wrote:
| Why integrating the most used IDE/Editor?
|
| Some companies are already moving to remote IDE models for a
| variety of reasons, I would prefer using this Gitlab IDE over a
| VPS hosted in the company cloud for sure.
|
| That's the last question I would ask.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Moving back actually. About 20 years ago I used IDEs over X
| Windows remote sessions, and in many projects VS over RDP was
| also an option.
| vultour wrote:
| It will certainly benefit me as a user. I frequently use the
| current web editor for small changes and it's really not that
| great.
| john_cogs wrote:
| GitLab team member here.
|
| There is more context in this blog post:
| https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2022/05/23/the-future-of-the-g...
|
| The TLDR is that the Web IDE is a widely used feature (tens of
| millions of commits have been made using it) and building our
| new Web IDE with VS Code will allow us to invest in extending
| the experience to be more tightly integrated with GitLab and
| the DevOps workflow rather than re-creating VS Code features in
| our Web IDE.
| [deleted]
| Dave3of5 wrote:
| Pretty much a carbon copy of what github has been doing for a
| long while now even down to the keyboard shortcut.
| lucideer wrote:
| A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this as Gitlab
| introducing a Web IDE. They're actually just swapping out the
| implementation in their existing Web IDE (which existed long
| before Github's)
| Kelteseth wrote:
| Good. This is why open source is awesome. The current editor
| does really feel clunky to work with.
| krsdcbl wrote:
| I'd see that as a good thing, the less i gotta think while
| working with either system the better
| terminal_d wrote:
| Anyone think there'll be another editor that'll surpass VSCode,
| similar to how VSCode surpassed Atom (and others)? I used to
| think that there would be one, but now I'm not so sure.
| numbsafari wrote:
| Eventually someone will develop an IDE with a proper sandbox
| for plugins and extensions, rather than the free-for-all that
| is VSCode.
| morelisp wrote:
| I see your profile says you're in your early 20s, so I kind of
| understand the question but also I'll be blunt: yes, there will
| be another text editor. 90% of the tools you use today will be
| gone by the end of your career.
| azalemeth wrote:
| And the remainder will be called things like vim, emacs, awk,
| and sed ;-)
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| I forgot the name of the principal, but there's a rule of
| thumb that a thing's future life expectancy is related to
| how long they've already been around. So _in general_ if
| some new text editor emerges, I give it a reasonable chance
| of being dead in 6 months. VSC is old enough to probably be
| around for a while now. And I fully expect emacs and vi /m
| to outlive me:)
| rileyphone wrote:
| Lindy effect.
| morelisp wrote:
| Even awk is slowly but surely on the way out at this
| point... sed probably has another strong decade though.
| brabel wrote:
| Exactly what I thought reading that comment... but there will
| still be some older people sticking to it for perhaps a
| decade or two... just like we have people today still using
| emacs (guilty) and Vim. Not sure if VS Code will last nearly
| as long as those, it's really hard to stay around for 40+
| years (anyone here using ed, Eclipse, Sublime, Netbeans??? I
| am sure there are a few, but the number is dropping fast).
| lallysingh wrote:
| With language servers, I think the big IDEs will be less
| relevant. It'll be easier for anyone to write a text editor
| with language server integration and make it with just the way
| they like.
| dmitriid wrote:
| You're forgetting the actual heavy lifting that proper IDEs
| do, and that VS Code leaves to language implementors. Unless
| you know how to do proper code analysis, you won't be able to
| make it "just the way you like".
|
| Even writing a proper IDE-aware compiler is a quite a
| daunting task.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| Why there would not be?
| screamingninja wrote:
| > Anyone think there'll be another editor that'll surpass
| VSCode
|
| Worthy mention- Zed is the spiritual successful of Atom that is
| being rewritten in Rust. Text editors gain and lose popularity
| often, so the potential is definitely there.
|
| https://zed.dev/
| andrew_ wrote:
| This is definitely the one I'm looking at closest. There's
| also Lapce https://github.com/lapce/lapce which has great
| velocity and looks to be a pretty welcoming project.
|
| VS Code has become the IE of old imo and it'll take an
| industry shift to kick it, just like IE. Microsoft is not
| being a good steward of open source for the project, and over
| time that will wear on people. Hopefully that'll irritate the
| right people with the right amount of money to do something
| about it.
| FpUser wrote:
| Rust - I would not give rat's ass about what language was
| used to write an IDE as long as it performs adequately. VS
| Code definitely does it. I for example can comfortable edit,
| compile and debug my code written in C++ and other languages
| locally and on remote servers with fast turnaround. VS code
| is the closest thing ever to come to a full blown modern IDE.
| Replicating this complete functionality and plugin ecosystem
| will not be easy. I would not even bother looking at things
| like Zed unless it can do the same things.
| bitwize wrote:
| Rust is pretty much the most important programming language
| in the world right now. Using it to eliminate entire
| classes of bugs is a huge win for developers everywhere.
| 12345hn6789 wrote:
| This is a pretty enormous statement. Programming
| languages are tools and not every tool suits every job.
| Rust is certainly a "good" language but it will not
| change the world. In 10 years perhaps we can resume this
| conversation with some actual substance.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Go changed the world in that it made the rapid
| development of things like Docker, Kubernetes, possible,
| along a multitude of other "cloud first" services. This
| in turn made possible things that were much harder to do
| before. A single trivial example being the massive NN
| training pipelines by self-driving companies.
|
| All this could have been done another way, using another
| language, but not at the same speed as what was enabled
| by the ergonomy of Go, and not with the same enthusiasm.
| Arguably, the boiling mix phenomenon made a multitude of
| things happen and possible, by making them easier to do,
| thus crossing a required minimum threshold where enough
| people have the time, desire and ability to achieve
| something.
|
| Rust will do the same.
|
| It's like catalysts in chemistry. They are not the
| reagents, but they often make the reaction statistically
| possible in the first place.
| FpUser wrote:
| As already said I do not care. I would not trade shitty
| app written in "proper" language over one that is not but
| does the actual useful work for me.
|
| >"...eliminate entire classes of bugs..."
|
| With modern C++, static analyzers and address sanitizers
| this aspect of Rust does not matter that much for me
| personally. As a language Rust looks way more restricted
| to me than a modern C++ and dancing around borrow checker
| is far from fun. Unless explicitly required by contract I
| do not see it as a business case with positive ROI for
| me. I run my own company and I actually pay for
| development.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It was rather my impression that the classes of bugs that
| rust fixes are entirely in memory management, which is to
| say that they never existed in managed languages in the
| first place. That makes it a big step forward for bare
| metal and performance critical code, but kind of
| unimportant anywhere where ex. Java, Python, or
| JavaScript are used.
| StevePerkins wrote:
| At the end of the day, VS Code is a shitty Electron app. It's
| one of the most highly optimized and performant Electron apps
| ever created... but it's still a shitty Electron app. Startup
| time on my machine is only a hair faster than Jetbrains _IDE
| 's_ launching a JVM, it's ridiculous.
|
| VS Code has the market share that it has because:
|
| 1. They encouraged a huge plugin ecosystem.
|
| 2. They made it cross-platform and gave it away for free, while
| Sublime costs money.
|
| 3. Most importantly of all (in my cynical opinion), they went
| "dark mode" by default at just the right time when this was
| becoming a trendy new feature among devs.
|
| There are plenty of text editors that are far better than VS
| Code, but they either cost money or are for a single platform
| only. If someone came out with a free, cross-platform,
| attractive text editor that was a _native executable_ and got
| critical mass going with a plugin ecosystem, then VS Code would
| fall out of fashion within a year. There 's no genuine
| groundswell of support for Microsoft as a trendy entity with
| brand loyalty among young devs.
|
| The recent boomer adage "No one wants to work anymore" simply
| has its sad technical analogue, "No one wants to create desktop
| apps anymore".
| FpUser wrote:
| >"At the end of the day, VS Code is a shitty Electron app. "
|
| It provides huge practical value to me as a developer. I am
| not fond of JavaScript being used as front end but as long as
| it performs decent job for particular use case I do not care.
| I use development tools to develop products and make money. I
| do not fight holy tech wars.
|
| >"Startup time on my machine is only a hair faster than
| Jetbrains IDE's launching a JVM, it's ridiculous."
|
| I value my development time and my development computers are
| very decent (desktop for example is 16 core AMD with 128GB
| RAM). Launching VS code on my machines is nearly instant.
| CLion from JetBrains is much slower (10 sec from cold start
| to opening my C++ project in a usable state for example) but
| still very acceptable. I do not restart it every minute. More
| like once in few days when using it.
|
| >"VS Code has the market share that it has because:"
|
| I do not care why. I am a consumer here. It is for a people
| who want to beat VS Code to figure out why and do better than
| MS. Me - I have my own problems to worry about and I just use
| tools that work for me.
|
| >"Most importantly of all (in my cynical opinion), they went
| "dark mode" by default at just the right time when this was
| becoming a trendy new feature among devs."
|
| I do not give a flying fuck about what is trendy for a
| generic developer. What is important for me in VS code along
| with plugin ecosystem let's me develop, lint, _debug_ my code
| locally and on remote servers. As long as proper ergonomics
| / usability guidelines are followed I do not really care
| whether the mode is dark or light.
|
| >"If someone came out with a free, cross-platform, attractive
| text editor that was a native executable and got critical
| mass going with a plugin ecosystem, then VS Code would fall
| out of fashion within a year."
|
| And if I had a million dollars I'd be rich. Coulda, shoulda,
| woulda. And VS code is way more than an editor.
|
| >"No one wants to create desktop apps anymore".
|
| I actually have native desktop product and it keeps bringing
| me some dosh for what is a very little maintenance.
| StevePerkins wrote:
| For someone who starts by saying they don't fight tech holy
| wars, this sure does read like a tech holy war.
|
| I am not insulting your personal identity by disparaging
| your choice in text editor. I am responding to a question
| of what could cause a future competitor to take the top
| spot away from VS Code.
|
| My answer is that VS Code has inherent challenges from
| being built atop an embedded web browser, and that a
| similar implementation based on direct native executables
| may be the path through which it's successor will emerge.
| Carry on.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"For someone who opens by saying that they don't fight
| tech holy wars, this sure does read like a tech holy war.
|
| No. I need to take my eyes from work every once in a
| while and HN to me is one of the ways to do it. I just
| explained my opinion about a subject. If you believe that
| I really care about actually convincing anyone be my
| guest.
| coffee_cup wrote:
| well there's emacs, although it probably wouldn't qualify as
| 'attractive'
| goguy wrote:
| > If someone came out with a free, cross-platform, attractive
| text editor that was a native executable and got critical
| mass going with a plugin ecosystem, then VS Code would fall
| out of fashion within a year.
|
| Well yeah, there's the problem. This isn't an easy task, it
| has never been done before.
| StevePerkins wrote:
| It's been done with Vim and Emacs, among others. Full
| desktop GUI versions, in addition to the original terminal-
| based form.
|
| It just hasn't been done RECENTLY... with an editor that is
| visually attractive, and uses modern keyboard conventions
| rather than arcane keystroke DSL's that are inaccessible
| for the masses. But that's just a matter of project
| philosophy, not technical limitations with what's doable.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| This is definitely the first time I've ever seen the
| adjective 'attractive' applied to either vim or emacs.
| StevePerkins wrote:
| If by "applied to Vim and Emacs", you mean "included in a
| list of theoretical differences from Vim and Emacs", then
| sure.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| > > > free, cross-platform, attractive text editor
|
| > > Well yeah, there's the problem. This isn't an easy
| task, it has never been done before.
|
| > It's been done with Vim and Emacs
|
| My apologies if I misunderstood how you intended the
| pronouns to be applied.
| Shorel wrote:
| It depends on who you ask.
|
| Personally, I still prefer Sublime Text to VSCode.
|
| Now, the problem is ST is proprietary, but then VSCode is
| starting to be proprietary as well.
| silverwind wrote:
| Sublime Text is still considerable faster than VSCode, and
| also has LSP via plugins, but its development again has
| grinded to a halt, which seems to be something that happens
| periodically when the team decides to focus on other
| products.
| sph wrote:
| What will get bigger than VSCode is the wrong question to ask.
| Eventually it'll be unmaintained and people will have moved
| onto something else. The only constants in the editor mindshare
| circus are Emacs and vim, and even those will fade away, one
| day, much later than VSCode.
| bauerd wrote:
| This is just begging the question why VS code would become
| unmaintained
| aniforprez wrote:
| There's many editors in this space that are trying to do
| similar things but built in Rust, Go and such. They're all
| nascent projects and all extremely immature to the point that I
| installed them all and immediately removed them but they show
| promise. There's Lapce, Zed, Fleet and Nova which are all
| native apps without Electron but having tried them all out,
| they're lacking in one way or another
| maegul wrote:
| Seeing recently Onivim 2 die and Brackets too (I don't know
| much about that project, but it was Adobe backed FWIW)
| reminds me that these things can come and go. Getting people
| to become users and getting plug-in authors to invest their
| time seems like a nightmare. It's surely no coincidence that
| VS Code was backed by a mega corp.
| nicce wrote:
| JetBrain's Fleet looks very promising. Does many things better
| out of the box than VSCode with gazillion of extensions. Too
| bad that popular keybindings are not supported properly yet.
| levesque wrote:
| To me VSCode is not comparable to Pycharm for Python
| programming & debugging. Pycharm just works better and has much
| better code completion.
| CrimpCity wrote:
| pycharm is also MUCH smarter figuring out import paths.
| ericcholis wrote:
| I think that the market share of "new" IDEs is pretty well
| established between VSCode, Sublime and the various Jetbrains
| offerings.
| minusf wrote:
| is sublime an IDE? i guess i could call my neovim python
| setup an IDE, but i don't.
| BaculumMeumEst wrote:
| I think it makes to count any editor with an LSP client as
| an "IDE" and call a day rather than engage in endless,
| meaningless debates on subjective terminology
| josephd79 wrote:
| what's the difference between vscode/sublime and an IDE?
| Honest question, not being sarcastic.
| maegul wrote:
| No, I think they've won this cycle in the same way that Windows
| and Google did theirs. The only issue for them is that it's
| still text editing under the hood, which is a fundamental
| enough of a tool that there'll always be alternatives
| scratching away at their supremacy (unlike an operating system
| for instance). So copilot and good LSP servers are probably big
| factors in their dominance.
|
| Still seems like a market shift would be required to take them
| down, like an AI revolution, but then MS seem to be on top of
| that so far. Perhaps if CI/CD is reinvented in a wonderful way
| with mass adoption, integrated code editing and manipulation
| could reshape the text editor.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| lsp actually came out of the .net opensource community.
| omnisharp to be exact. It's funny how much is actually
| attributed to MS in this case, when most of VSCode did not
| originate there.
|
| There's no reason at all why VSCode has "won" the same way
| Windows and Google did. VSCode fixed two main issues of Atom.
| If anything it was a natural evolution. The name was just a
| smart marketing play. There are some things that are
| exclusive VSCode but most of the important pieces are not.
|
| I think the main reason there is no direct VSCode competitor
| is because there is currently no need to. People that use
| their own respective flavours of editors have almost the same
| features in their own respective features, so what's the
| point in mirroring it?
| maegul wrote:
| Fair. Like I said, it's a text editor and only does things
| so much "better" than their competitors who are likely to
| retain their user bases to some extent. We seem to
| generally agree on this.
|
| But the ecosystem effects of GitHub integration and getting
| into the browser as is the case with the top parent post
| and being the home for LSP servers seem to me like enough
| of an "embrace" to secure a "win" however lesser it is than
| Google's. I'm not a user though, just my view from the
| outside.
| [deleted]
| SalmoShalazar wrote:
| Oddly enough it seems like this launched without the ability to
| make new branches. Kind of makes it unusable for me at the
| moment.
| sarki_247 wrote:
| GitLab team member here! This feature is currently being worked
| on. You can follow the progress in https://gitlab.com/gitlab-
| org/gitlab-web-ide/-/issues/72
| coreyog wrote:
| A buddy sent me this article a few days ago:
| https://ghuntley.com/fracture/
|
| If I hadn't read it, I might think Gitlab incorporating vscode
| was a good thing.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Seriously no time to read this.
|
| What's the TL;DR?
| another_devy wrote:
| TL;DR (meta phrased)
|
| Microsoft is forking VSCode open source community by split
| licensing for source code and and official build of VSCode.
| If you build by yourself you can't connect to VSCode is
| marketplace.
|
| This allows them to fully control VSCode telemetry and
| reporting along with use on platforms such as Gitpod. It's
| similar to how Apple controls apps on iPhone and in turn
| control how much you need to pay them if you earn money on
| it.
|
| In long run everything going on cloud and SaaS/ PaaS platform
| holding the keys to developer tooling gate such as VSCode,
| Microsoft has unfair advantage over other competitors and
| still keep benefits of OSS
| meonmyphone wrote:
| There is a short summary at the end.
| Kukumber wrote:
| That's a very bad signal..
|
| Where did all the investor money go? just to slap vscode?
|
| I sincerely hope Sublime Text open sources its editor so the
| community can hack together a WASM version of ST..
|
| Things are not looking great
| metadaemon wrote:
| For people who don't like vs code?
| Kukumber wrote:
| Oh, people are free to like what ever they want
|
| Specially the people who have a short memory and forgot about
| the recent Python extension controversy
|
| Screw them!
|
| Considering we were warned already from that company,
| remember dotnet hotreload?
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/22/microsoft_net_hot_rel.
| ..
|
| When your sole choice becomes their sole product, one should
| have reacted in the past
| greatgib wrote:
| I don't understand that girls is letting that going when they
| pretend to care for OSS. Microsoft is in the embrace phase, there
| is not a major forge that will remain that will not force to use
| their things.
|
| Then they will be able to start with messing things, like
| requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing. I guess
| a lot of people here don't remember the good old time of Visual
| Studio on Windows.
| greatgib wrote:
| Can't edit but yes "gitlab" and not "girls". Shitty android
| auto-completion!
| ZiiS wrote:
| The default Python extension is already proprietary.
| worble wrote:
| So is their C# debugger
| notpushkin wrote:
| There's this FOSS replacement based on Samsung's open
| source C# debugger: https://open-
| vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp
| whatever1 wrote:
| VScode's killer feature is its remote development capability.
|
| Its prevalence could had been averted if Linux folks were not
| that stuck in command prompt editors for ssh work, and
| lecturing beginners about their incompetence to learn the
| keyboard commands of vi.
|
| At some point there was some work in forwarding UI via X11, but
| it was very clunky and slow. The Remote Desktop capabilities of
| Linux are also atrocious for rendering text.
|
| So here we are, Microsoft covered the gaps that the community
| underplayed for decades, and now is dominating.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Totally agree with this sentiment. Everything else about the
| VSCode experience more or less exists elsewhere. The turn key
| (and improving) remote experience is incredible. That the
| infrastructure also works with the development containers
| concept is brilliant.
| xigoi wrote:
| https://github.com/jbyuki/instant.nvim
| roblabla wrote:
| > like requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing.
|
| Which they are already doing in a lot of places. For instance,
| the VSCode Python extension replaced the open source language
| server with a proprietary rewrite (PyLance)[0]. They also have
| quite a few extensions that are proprietary, like LiveView.
|
| And it's worth noting that those extensions explicitly forbid
| running in anything other than the official VSCode from
| Microsoft. Forks cannot legally run those extensions, and some
| of the extensions will have DRM to prevent it from
| happening[1].
|
| [0]:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/n9yse1/as_of_today_...
|
| [1]:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/k0s8qw/vs_code_devel...
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Which means it's not truly OSS. But I dont think its
| insidious for software to have good proprietary features that
| make the tool better.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > But I dont think its insidious for software to have good
| proprietary features that make the tool better.
|
| Maybe not, but it's absolutely insidious to have open
| source features and then replace them with proprietary
| ones.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| It means that there is a truly OSS core VS Code (presumably
| what Gitlab and Code Sandbox uses), and proprietary
| extensions on top that Microsoft ship in their default
| (proprietary) distribution
| matkoniecz wrote:
| If someone is a purist and wants to use it to avoid lock-
| in - it is available at
| https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium
| andrew_ wrote:
| I gave this an earnest try over the course of a few
| months. There were notable bugs in nearly all of the
| extensions I needed to use for work. It's known that
| Microsoft ships custom builds of the open source portion
| of VS Code, and there's certainly something missing from
| the open source core. I ended up going back to hobbled
| Atom while I wait for projects like Zed to mature.
| lozenge wrote:
| That doesn't make sense to me as there are next to no
| changes between VSCodium and VS Code.
|
| Unless these extensions were closed source Microsoft-
| authored?
| roblabla wrote:
| > That doesn't make sense to me as there are next to no
| changes between VSCodium and VS Code.
|
| Honest question: How would we know that? Is it possible
| to somehow diff vscode's code with the open source repo?
| Is there an analysis available somewhere of the
| differences?
| matkoniecz wrote:
| And I am simply not using extensions. (Viable for me, may
| be not viable for others.)
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| But given that the architecture is open source, there's
| nothing stopping the people behind e.g. Python from
| embracing the language server protocol and providing
| better tooling. Besides time / money, but that ties in to
| the known problem that open source is very difficult to
| monetize.
| aliswe wrote:
| Sorry, this went over my head. What was that about girls, you
| said?
| petepete wrote:
| On my phone (Pixel) if you type 'gitlab' into the Google
| Keyboard and it suggests 'girls'.
| dijit wrote:
| Tangent: Why is autocomplete getting _worse_ on phones? iOS
| is notably _much_ worse, often replacing completely correct
| words with other unrelated words. Frustratingly even doing
| it _ _again_ _ when you fix the word.
| dmitriid wrote:
| I read somewhere that Apple replaced their own language
| model for autocomplete with a crowdsourced one (that is,
| taken from usage from many phones), and the quality
| immediately went downhill.
| kristopolous wrote:
| It's a difficult balance to strike. The older systems
| didn't take frequency into account so they'd suggest
| really obscure words and the newer systems weigh it too
| heavily so it overrides your intentions. Problems are
| harder than they appear
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| _iOS is notably much worse_
|
| My girlfriend is the only person I know with an IPhone,
| and her spelling got much worse over the last year when
| she had to get a new phone. Every time I tease her she
| blames the phone, some of the corrections aren't even
| words. It's just silly at this point. She also has to
| watch ads on websites because there is no firefox/ublock
| origin, I don't know how she tolerates it.
| heartbreak wrote:
| Ad blockers on iOS are called "Content Blockers" and can
| be found in the App Store. I use one called Purify.
|
| Notably the Content Blocker implementation is in typical
| Apple form. The interface with Safari is such that Safari
| itself is applying a ruleset to the page, and the CB only
| provides the rules. That means the CB never sees the
| pages you're actually browsing.
| stinos wrote:
| Feels like a combination of wanting to roll out new
| 'better' stuff which isn't tested enough, or just not
| good enough, plus essentially people not really caring
| and/or thinking that new tech must by definition be
| better.
|
| It's like with orientation detection. You'd think that
| after a decade this would have been a done thing. On the
| contrary: it amazes me to no end how many times a day
| people want to show me something on their phone and then
| go like 'oh wait..shake phone..nope..shake again..finally
| got it'. When I ask them why they don't just turn it off
| or replace it with a hardware or software button they say
| something about it sometimes working and/or not wanting
| to lookup where to change the setting. Same with voice
| control in the past years. This is getting better it
| seems, slowly, but I can't keep track of the number of
| times people were getting angry because their words
| wouldn't come through and the navigation wasn't driving
| them where they want or their text message were full of
| bs. Still they persist, seemingly because 'I paid for
| this new thing so I better try'. Which is utterly
| nonsensical for an engineering mind.
| beckingz wrote:
| I've disabled iOS autocorrect/autocomplete because it's
| gotten so bad.
| dijit wrote:
| I will follow your example, lets see how much it was
| actually helping me. :)
| notjoemama wrote:
| Thank you! My subconcious has been telling me to do that
| for ages. I finally just did it and am typing this reply
| without the hand holding. Feels a bit like taking the
| training wheels off a bike, but good in the same way too.
| dtgriscom wrote:
| ... perhaps "girls" => "Gitlab"?
| npteljes wrote:
| Well, they can just fork if something happens, no? Or even
| phase out this product, if something goes that wrong.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Many core features like remote editing and python support use
| a DRM so they only run in VSCode and not forks.
| thiht wrote:
| These are NOT core features. They're literally extensions.
| Anyone could create an alternative for both of these if
| they wanted it.
| kristopolous wrote:
| Or maybe Microsoft is done being a bastard.
|
| It's a different group of people steering the ship then it was
| 25 years ago.
|
| I know how fun it is to presume they are being exclusively evil
| but who knows, things can change
| mikro2nd wrote:
| Or maybe not. It's harder to change an organisational DNA
| than just changing the people.
|
| tl;dr: MS is still evil.
| anthonypasq wrote:
| its not that hard to change it over the course of 25 years
| when 99.99% of the employees are different people
| kristopolous wrote:
| That corporate strategy has failed them recently.
|
| They had been doing mobile ever since the mostly fiction
| pen windows (which became windows CE a few years later) in
| 1992 but lost that battle so hard with things like Kin and
| Lumia they dropped out. And let's forget about Zune.
|
| At one point they has 95% of the browser market but lost
| that so much that they completely abandoned their browser
| engine.
|
| Despite all the money they've thrown at projects like
| Surface and Bing, they have failed to come anywhere near a
| dominant position. Even in gaming consoles, which has been
| fairly successful, they're still in 3rd place behind Sony
| and Nintendo after over 20 years.
|
| Their cloud azure is nowhere near AWS ... being a barbarian
| emperor hasn't been working for them for a long time and
| demanding the 1970s IBM style vertically integrated
| infrastructure is not a luxury they have.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > It's a different group of people steering the ship then it
| was 25 years ago.
|
| Is it a different group of people than were steering when
| they decided to patent troll Android OEMs less than a decade
| ago?
|
| Is it a different group of people than were steering when
| they started abusing their desktop market share to strong arm
| their way into the browser market last year?
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29415031)
|
| Microsoft didn't change, they're just being more careful now
| that their position is weaker.
| xigoi wrote:
| If they really liked open source now, they would open-source
| all their software, or at least all their new software.
| kristopolous wrote:
| open source as a for-profit business is hard. Most for-
| profits in the space have a closed source commercial
| product somewhere in the mix. They've got quite a bit open
| source right now. It's not bad. Compare with Adobe, Oracle,
| Intuit, Apple, ... not the worst.
| thiht wrote:
| This seems alarmist for no founded reasons.
|
| > Then they will be able to start with messing things, like
| requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing
|
| Some extensions are already closed source: Remote Development,
| Python, and probably tons of other which I didn't even notice.
| So what? What does it change in practice? What's stopping
| anyone from creating their open source alternative if it
| bothers them?
|
| Now let's say they "extinguish" their extension ecosystem. Then
| they die and everyone switches to VSCodium and open-vsx for
| extensions. Again, what's the problem?
|
| I honestly think they're in a position where not only the EEE
| is not their strategy anymore, but also it's not even doable
| with the state of VSCode.
|
| Now, what exactly are your arguments?
| aaws11 wrote:
| girls!
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