[HN Gopher] Okta says its GitHub account hacked, source code stolen
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       Okta says its GitHub account hacked, source code stolen
        
       Author : nazgulsenpai
       Score  : 403 points
       Date   : 2022-12-21 07:27 UTC (15 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.bleepingcomputer.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.bleepingcomputer.com)
        
       | harryf wrote:
       | Centralized authentication systems. What could go wrong ?
        
         | Nextgrid wrote:
         | Nothing is going wrong as long as adequately dissuasive
         | penalties aren't being levied against companies with terrible
         | security practices. It's business as usual.
         | 
         | Okta has been breached previously, with actual access to end-
         | customer data, and so did Equifax, who leaked the credit
         | reports of ~140M people. Both companies are still alive and
         | thriving.
        
       | shusaku wrote:
       | If only they had managed their GitHub logins with Okta
        
         | alex_duf wrote:
         | I know it's probably sarcasm, but just in case: I don't think
         | they should, otherwise they could find themselves in a
         | situation where an outage prevents them from fixing the outage.
        
           | bilalnpe wrote:
           | Similar to the Facebook outage earlier. Apparently everything
           | is managed through Facebook accounts so employees could not
           | get access to fix the issues.
        
       | Decabytes wrote:
       | I don't know how I feel about this. On the one hand Okta's
       | position in the market makes them a high value target to hack.
       | Between the Lapsus$ hack in April and this, Okta has had a rough
       | year. At the same time I feel like they should know better, and I
       | hated the way they handled the Lapsus$ breach, trying to hand
       | wave the potential damage away
        
         | TechBro8615 wrote:
         | It's pretty clear how to feel about this: unsurprised.
         | 
         | Their internal infrastructure was pwned by some 16 year old
         | chavs who broke into support software with unjustifiable
         | "superuser" features accessible by any employee. And Okta never
         | intended to reveal that to us until the chavs themselves made
         | it known.
         | 
         | This is a company that "literally" has one job - to protect the
         | security of user accounts and facilitate login. Their product
         | is simple and its development velocity is extremely slow. As a
         | developer who has integrated Okta into multiple products, I've
         | never gotten the feeling it's being run by a competent crew of
         | software engineers, nevermind security professionals.
         | 
         | It's entirely unsurprising to me that they would be compromised
         | at this level. Not only are they a juicy target, but they've
         | proven themselves generally incompetent at performing their
         | basic job.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | revskill wrote:
       | I don't think it's a surprise. Security is always a tradeoff
       | between complexity and simplicty in software design.
        
         | int0x2e wrote:
         | When your product basically is security, that's not really a
         | compromise you get to make...
        
       | hericium wrote:
       | If Okta admits to being breached or having something stolen from
       | them, I wonder how many months ago was that. Guess we'll have to
       | wait for Cloudflare post to get reliable info.
        
       | noisy_boy wrote:
       | Maybe they should consider being Github's secret scanning
       | partner.
        
         | mdaniel wrote:
         | That goes double because Okta's token scoping is a _raging
         | dumpster fire_ , which forces customers to use God Tokens or
         | GTFO. I hate it with all my heart
        
       | koliber wrote:
       | Maybe the hackers will be able to fix some of the bugs Okta could
       | never figure out how to fix!
        
       | luc_ wrote:
       | IMO, it's a bit weird they would even host their source code on
       | open-facing GitHub. Of course I don't know the whole story, but
       | seems like a company dealing with security would benefit from
       | hosting their on VCS, perhaps GitHub enterprise, behind a VPN..?
        
         | mdaniel wrote:
         | That's one of those weird questions: does Okta have more
         | resources for knowing abnormal VCS behavior, or GitHub?
         | 
         | IMHO the network is no longer the correct security boundary,
         | and I hope I never encounter a VPN in my career ever again
        
       | thedougd wrote:
       | Their public repos include .travis.yml files. Perhaps Okta is
       | still feeling effects from the TravisCI breach?
        
         | captn3m0 wrote:
         | The Early December timeline matches.
        
       | politelemon wrote:
       | I'm not seeing details of how, though. Was it some leaked tokens?
       | Employee credentials?
       | 
       | Also shouldn't this be called a security _incident_ rather than
       | _event_.
       | 
       | https://advisera.com/27001academy/blog/2018/12/03/iso-27001-...
        
         | Godel_unicode wrote:
         | Everyone uses those words differently and no two groups agree.
         | Event is often used since it's the most generic. Also, many
         | companies have requirements around their use of certain words
         | and this might not meet their lawyers definition of incident.
        
         | Vanit wrote:
         | A company I previously worked at would call this a CRI;
         | critical room for improvement.
        
           | dgb23 wrote:
           | A good reminder to use fun and absurd names for things.
           | Life's too short.
        
           | int0x2e wrote:
           | A former boss used to use the term OFE - Opportunity For
           | Excellence :-)
        
       | pointlessone wrote:
       | Free involuntary security audit
        
         | vntok wrote:
         | Unplanned decentralized backup.
        
           | cutemonster wrote:
           | Write-only backups, from Okta's perspective
        
             | trallnag wrote:
             | Not so fast, maybe the attackers will provide the backups
             | for a small fee
        
         | js8 wrote:
         | The results of the audit will be provided to 3rd parties, in
         | the form of additional involuntary free audits.
        
       | trallnag wrote:
       | In the end somebody has to pay for all the additional investments
       | into security and many are not willing to do that.
       | 
       | In addition, a secure system is a moving target and it is
       | difficult to find the right balance.
       | 
       | Breaches like this are important for us to refocus. Thanks for
       | your service, Okta!
        
       | rvz wrote:
       | So unprofessional for a security company to be hosting their code
       | on GitHub and connecting with lots of silly integrations, access
       | tokens, etc.
       | 
       | Okta has not learned their lesson with security with this hack,
       | especially when they got themselves breached before in January.
        
         | papito wrote:
         | That's not a bad point. GitHub is convenient, yes, but if you
         | manage security for companies that are collectively worth
         | billions, you want to minimize your attack surface.
         | 
         | In my experience, security is usually an afterthought in most
         | tech companies. Just look at how many MongoDB instances in
         | production were running on open ports with the default
         | password, which was... no password.
        
           | throwawaysleep wrote:
           | At my jobs, employees routinely share passwords in Slack or
           | use simple passwords.
           | 
           | Frankly, as an employee, security is not my problem.
        
             | lukev wrote:
             | Solving security issues and maintaining secure systems
             | isn't your problem, but adhering to company policy most
             | certainly is, and the policy almost certainly forbids you
             | from sharing passwords (especially via Slack.)
             | 
             | Unless you're in a tiny or ass-backward company that
             | doesn't even have a policy that covers such things.
        
           | yakubin wrote:
           | It always amazes me how many companies host their source code
           | in "the cloud" visible to external companies, accessible from
           | the public internet, only a single bug/security
           | vulnerability/human error away from being leaked. The
           | companies I've worked for so far host their source code on
           | their own servers, which are physically under their control,
           | and aren't accessible from the public internet. Add on top of
           | it that functionally GitHub/GitLab don't hold a candle to
           | code review functionality of Gerrit, project management of
           | Redmine/Jira; and the only explanation is that those
           | companies really, really don't want to hire 1/2 sysadmins to
           | manage their infrastructure.
        
             | m1ghtym0 wrote:
             | An alternative to using own servers, which are not feasible
             | for every company would be isolated and encrypted
             | GitLab/GitHub deployments as described here:
             | https://dev.to/flxflx/setting-up-a-confidential-gitlab-333h
        
             | ralph84 wrote:
             | Companies host data a lot more valuable than source code in
             | the cloud. Developers like to think we're the center of the
             | business, but access to a company's Salesforce or NetSuite
             | instance is a lot more economically valuable than access to
             | a company's GitHub org.
        
               | yakubin wrote:
               | Those things are no less incredible to me than GitHub.
               | (Also not used at the companies I've worked for so far.)
        
             | trallnag wrote:
             | Companies with hundreds of sysadmins and billions of
             | revenue or moving to the cloud... It has nothing to do with
             | the cost of a handful of additional engineers.
        
         | terom wrote:
         | How so? It refutes that right there in the advisory:
         | 
         | > Okta does not rely on the confidentiality of its source code
         | as a means to secure its services.
         | 
         | Would it be more professional for them to host their code in a
         | public repo?
        
           | robertlagrant wrote:
           | It might be, yes. With the right protections on pull
           | requests.
        
           | grishka wrote:
           | Yes? What do they have to gain from the code not being
           | public?
        
           | bennyelv wrote:
           | Did they decide that that was their strategy before or after
           | this breach occurred?
           | 
           | They were trying to keep their source code secure, and they
           | failed. Not a great look for a company that ask you to trust
           | them with all of your user accounts.
        
       | jsiepkes wrote:
       | Wonder if we are ever going to known how this happened.
       | 
       | Curious to know if Okta themselves were using best practices such
       | as only using a hardware token as 2FA (FIDO2) and disabling SMS
       | 2FA and recovery.
        
         | xander158 wrote:
         | You're assuming that the breach was done through the UI and not
         | for example an oauth token or ssh key that was stolen from a
         | developer's machine and used to download the source code by the
         | attacker.
        
           | Nextgrid wrote:
           | Another comment mentions GitHub themselves detecting the
           | breach - in this case it's unlikely to be done via a
           | compromised developer's laptop as the access would otherwise
           | look normal and wouldn't trigger GH's security alerts.
        
             | Sankozi wrote:
             | Why would it always look normal? Different IP, different
             | usage patterns could trigger the alert.
        
             | noselasd wrote:
             | It would look abnormal if it was accessed from a dubious
             | geolocation compared to normal access, which are things
             | github can track and detect.
        
             | waspight wrote:
             | I think that they have alerts for when an access token is
             | found in the wild, for instance. So it is quite possible.
        
             | Aeolun wrote:
             | Depends, if someone suddenly starts pulling down every
             | single repository in the org, that should ring some bells.
        
               | grogenaut wrote:
               | Meh... I do this every 6-8 months as a principal
               | engineer. I've had many legit use cases.: Understanding
               | our overall dependency tree, validating code coverage
               | assumptions, seeing which projects built still, testing
               | out prototype profiler reports, inspecting the code to
               | see how hard adding x pattern would be, quantifying code
               | change patterns over the pandemic, seeing which uses of
               | the AWS sdk or internal clients were instrumented with
               | metrics, seeing what pct would build under make/go
               | build/bazel/etc.
               | 
               | Anyway many legit reasons. Should it set off an alarm?
               | Probably. Can you say before you do it? For sure!
        
               | trallnag wrote:
               | Depends on the number of repositories I would assume.
               | There are orgs with thousands of them.
        
         | pedrogpimenta wrote:
         | Their password was 12345
        
           | thedataangel wrote:
           | That's the stupidest password I've ever heard in my life!
           | That's the kind of thing an idiot would have on his luggage!
        
             | karxxm wrote:
             | Definetly not true. This can be the best password in
             | certain conditions. You should not put your "good"
             | passwords to any shady site out there. You have no idea how
             | passwords are stored on all these platforms one is
             | registering to. If you can live with the fact, that an
             | account may be hacked, then go for a super easy password if
             | you want.
        
               | nixgeek wrote:
               | Or, just have a unique password for every site stored in
               | a password manager, and then they can all be "good"
               | passwords, with no big concerns about how they are
               | stored!
        
               | grogenaut wrote:
               | Other than your eggs in one basket password apps being
               | hacked and exfiltrating them all which would never
               | happen.
               | 
               | https://www.macrumors.com/2022/12/02/lastpass-hacked-
               | second-...
        
               | theta_d wrote:
               | You missed the joke.
               | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a6iW-8xPw3k
        
               | LocalPCGuy wrote:
               | Excusing the fact it was a joke, on the serious side, a
               | person shouldn't have any kind of set of "good"
               | passwords. They should just have secure passwords they
               | have auto-generated and have some way of retrieving the
               | password from where they are stored when needed.
        
               | darepublic wrote:
               | If you are following the policy of unique passwords per
               | login then there is no need for "saving up the good
               | passwords".
        
             | omgmajk wrote:
             | And yet it consistently ranks high on passwords still in
             | use. This is a clickbaity article but there are better ones
             | out there https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/23/most-common-
             | passwords-of-202...
        
               | nosianu wrote:
               | Just FYI for those who missed it:
               | 
               | The previous comments were referring to the famous and
               | really hilarious Mel Brooks movie "Spaceballs", this
               | scene in particular:
               | 
               | https://youtu.be/a6iW-8xPw3k
        
               | toyg wrote:
               | I see that your schwartz is as big as mine
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | Now let's see how well you _handle_ it.
        
             | seanc wrote:
             | Remind me to change the combination on my luggage...
        
           | RedShift1 wrote:
           | solarwinds123
        
       | fragmede wrote:
       | Hackers claimed to have broken in 9 months ago in a different
       | incident.
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30762520
        
         | mijoharas wrote:
         | According to this article that was confirmed by Okta:
         | 
         | > Okta shortly acknowledged that the hack being referred to had
         | in fact occurred late January 2022
        
           | TechBro8615 wrote:
           | Critically, it was confirmed by Okta only after the hackers
           | went public, despite Okta having knowledge of the breach
           | before then.
        
       | LinuxBender wrote:
       | The bigger concern to me is not Okta but rather the companies it
       | acquired. One of them specifically integrates directly with Okta
       | to manage agents running on production servers as root. This
       | would be an incredibly valuable target, much more so than access
       | to some web front-ends. In some cases the damage done through a
       | web front end can be rolled back assuming an audit trail. Damage
       | done to large numbers of servers in many companies as root would
       | be quite challenging and time consuming to remediate and that is
       | assuming tested backups are in place that root can not tamper
       | with. I have failed to convince companies to have backups that
       | root can not tamper with.
       | 
       | If I were Okta that is the first thing I would be locking down
       | ASAP.
        
       | gabrielsroka wrote:
       | https://sec.okta.com/articles/2022/12/okta-code-repositories
        
       | andyjsong wrote:
       | Even if the hacker was able to start an Okta competitor with
       | their source code, how many companies would actually buy it? Who
       | would maintain it? Or am I missing something here, what would
       | they use the source code for?
        
         | random_savv wrote:
         | My first thought: it's a lot easier to find vulnerabilities if
         | you have the source code
        
           | fakedang wrote:
           | Exactly. Why would I start a competitor when I could easily
           | sell zero days to dictatorial regimes and make millions or
           | possible billions? Or utilize them myself?
        
         | SXX wrote:
         | First of all why do you think that everything have to be done
         | to profit off it? A lot of security research including blackhat
         | one is done just for fun and might be it was some kind of white
         | hat attempt gone wrong and was never reported to them as
         | result.
         | 
         | Also it very much possible that whoever "hacked" their GitHub
         | account just stumbled into some important API token
         | accidentally left in public by someone of their employees.
         | 
         | And even if there is malicious intent there are more ways to
         | use it. E.g Okta is public company and whoever have access to
         | it confidencial data can manipulate their stock.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | 0xmarcin wrote:
       | Maybe services like Okta (at least the core part without UI, just
       | like macOS & Darwin) should be open source by default? That would
       | be a good policy to forcibly open source anything connected to
       | encryption/authorization/authentication or PKI.
       | 
       | Whoever solen this code can sell it to criminals/evil
       | countries/black hats around the world, so on Okta's place I would
       | start scanning the code with all available static checkers and
       | fix as much and as fast as I could.
       | 
       | Okta become quite popular among startups, I used it at my prev
       | work and I use it at my current job. I even considering investing
       | into its stock. My only complain is that it is somehow slow,
       | otherwise UI is acceptable and Chrome plugin is OKish.
        
         | Nextgrid wrote:
         | There's nothing in Okta that isn't already open-source in
         | projects like Keycloak or Ory.
         | 
         | Okta is a terrible, expensive, and potentially incompetent
         | (this is not their first breach) hosted knockoff of the above.
        
           | toyg wrote:
           | They are to auth what Zoom is to webconfs: Just Bad But Good
           | At Marketing. In the winner-takes-all environment of the web
           | economy, they must be making pretty good money.
        
             | lmm wrote:
             | Zoom legitimately has better video quality than everyone
             | else. I wish they didn't but they do.
        
               | theshrike79 wrote:
               | Zoom client also Just Works.
               | 
               | I can test the mic and video before joining. I can also
               | change my mic and video source after joining.
               | 
               | You'd think that both are 100% basic features, but nope.
               | Can't do either in Google Meet or Teams...
        
               | count wrote:
               | You can do that in Teams client for macOS at least. Teams
               | is even smart enough to pick up new audio devices mid-
               | meeting, if, say, you connect a new pair of headphones.
        
               | theshrike79 wrote:
               | Didn't work the last time I had to have a meeting with my
               | kid's teacher on Teams.
               | 
               | Had to literally quit the meeting to pick a new webcam,
               | Teams wanted to pick the shitty laptop one instead of my
               | dedicated camera on top of the main monitor. It also
               | wanted to use the webcam's microphone and display's
               | speakers instead of my actual speakers and proper
               | microphone.
        
               | nixgeek wrote:
               | Teams definitely supports changing video and audio
               | devices after joining a meeting, I use that feature
               | almost daily. It's not new.
        
               | gradys wrote:
               | Meet does both of those things.
        
               | SgtBastard wrote:
               | Until Google cancels it.
        
             | jeltz wrote:
             | I disagree about Zoom. They managed to get big by being
             | better than Skype and Teams. And that was who they needed
             | to compete with.
        
               | SoftTalker wrote:
               | Absolutely. Zoom is the first video conference software I
               | have used where the first 15 minutes of the meeting is
               | not spent on impromptu tech support to get everyone
               | connected, seeing, and hearing everyone else. And I'm
               | exaggerating only slightly.
        
             | NateEag wrote:
             | I haven't used lots of videoconference tools, but Zoom has
             | a killer feature I haven't seen elsewhere:
             | 
             | The ability to put camera feeds on one screen and
             | screenshare on another.
             | 
             | If you're using a laptop's built-in webcam, and you have
             | external monitors, that makes the "video meeting with a
             | screenshare" experience noticeably better.
        
             | Nextgrid wrote:
             | To be fair, Zoom is the only modern conferencing software
             | that actually has a native client instead of Electron
             | garbage.
             | 
             | Back in the day many services had beautiful _native_
             | clients (MSN /Windows Live, Skype pre-Microsoft, etc) that
             | successfully delivered videoconferencing on single-core
             | CPUs and sub-gigabyte RAM capacities but clearly it was
             | worth sacrificing all that just to give Javascript
             | developers a career.
             | 
             | Nowadays few companies besides Zoom seem to be able to
             | replicate this experience despite processing power being
             | more than double (not that Zoom is perfect, but it's the
             | least bad).
        
       | leftcenterright wrote:
       | Red flags for me:
       | 
       | - Github alerted Okta about the access, they were not able to
       | detect this themselves
       | (https://docs.github.com/en/organizations/keeping-your-organi...)
       | 
       | - It only says "access to code repositories" (it does not say
       | anything about the level of that access, it might as well mean
       | write access, capability to trigger actions etc.)
       | 
       | - Not relying on the confidentiality of source code is great, but
       | malicious CD workflow actions would still be a risk if attackers
       | had that level of access.
       | 
       | - No information about the entry point for compromise.
       | 
       | I doubt their 'commitment to transparency'.
        
         | kerng wrote:
         | Another red flag is that they should mention what they will do
         | with clear-text credentials that are in the source code that
         | was stolen.
         | 
         | There are always creds in private/company repos! Lots.
        
           | chunk_waffle wrote:
           | > There are always creds in private/company repos! Lots.
           | 
           | I disagree with the "always" in this statement. Sloppy, lazy
           | private repos sure. It is possible to have them completely
           | absent in any and all repos though I've only seen and been
           | part of such an effort once, it takes a lot of work to make
           | sure it happens and I have little faith in most companies
           | following through with that.
        
             | TechBro8615 wrote:
             | In my experience it's a pretty low bar to keep private
             | credentials outside of source code. If a "security" company
             | like Okta has secrets in their source code, that's
             | embarrassing and unexpected. Any competent team of 2+
             | developers should be able to avoid this.
             | 
             | However, what's more common is secrets in CI variables. If
             | their GitHub was breached, they should be more concerned
             | with whether the attackers had access to GitHub Actions
             | logs or secrets.
        
           | madcadmium wrote:
           | Okta employee here. I can assure you that there are no clear-
           | text credentials in our source code.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | nobleach wrote:
           | In this day and age, I really do not understand why one of
           | the first steps when spinning up a new repo (for this type of
           | app) is not leveraging a tool like dotenv, and then a config
           | system that uses environment variables for things like db
           | credentials/etc. Yes it takes another hour of time to get
           | that all going but, in the long run, you'll thank yourself!
           | 
           | I've worked in places where all the code was open to all
           | teams, with the exception of DevOps because they had too many
           | hardcoded secrets and never had time to clean up their mess.
           | I get it, they really were spread thin... but it should have
           | never happened in the first place.
        
         | axsharma wrote:
         | Add to it that they reviewed "all recent commits to Okta
         | software repositories." Due diligence or indicative of the
         | threat actor having write access?
         | 
         | Many unanswered questions.
        
           | twistedpair wrote:
           | A good reason to give engineers PGP keys and turn on the
           | "required code signing" feature on your org. Alas, security
           | and productivity are perpetual odds.
        
             | mdaniel wrote:
             | Just a friendly reminder that both GH and GL now support
             | using _SSH_ keys for signing commits, and 1Password (and
             | KeePassXC, FWIW) will safely store those SSH creds off-
             | disk:
             | 
             | https://docs.github.com/en/authentication/managing-commit-
             | si...
             | 
             | https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/repository/ssh_sign
             | e...
             | 
             | https://developer.1password.com/docs/ssh/agent/
             | 
             | https://keepassxc.org/docs/KeePassXC_UserGuide.html#_ssh_ag
             | e...
             | 
             | Although in full transparency, I still use GPG for my
             | needs, since I better understand its workflow
        
             | chrisshroba wrote:
             | Just wondering - would this meaningfully impact
             | productivity beyond causing engineers to have to learn how
             | to sign a commit (which would presumable take less than an
             | hour, once)?
        
               | ghostpepper wrote:
               | Actually generating a key and signing commits is pretty
               | easy. I think the harder part would be ensuring all devs
               | safely store the keys, rotate them regularly, etc.
        
             | jlokier wrote:
             | Note that your GPG key is _discarded_ , and GitHub signs
             | your commit itself with _GitHub.com 's own GPG key_ when
             | anyone uses the GitHub UI to merge your PR.
             | 
             | All those "verified" buttons you see on a typical repo
             | history tend to actually be for the GitHub.com signing key,
             | which is shared by everyone. Your GPG signature is only
             | used to convince GitHub to sign the final commit with its
             | key.
             | 
             | It is possible to put your GPG signature on the merged
             | commits, so that people can trust the commits came from
             | you. That may be especially appropriate for security
             | software. But you have to do the merges (or rebases as you
             | prefer) outside GitHub for that, and push those merges
             | directly to the main branch. That's what I do when I can,
             | but it's not common practice. Many orgs require all merges
             | to be done via GitHub, so end up with GitHub.com's shared
             | signature on everything instead of their own.
        
         | noselasd wrote:
         | So genuine question, how do I detect access to my github
         | repository before github alerts me about something nefarious ?
        
           | leftcenterright wrote:
           | > You can stream audit and Git events data from GitHub to an
           | external data management system.
           | 
           | For a company of Okta's scale and importance, this should be
           | part of SIEM.
           | 
           | - https://docs.github.com/en/enterprise-
           | cloud@latest/admin/mon...
        
             | captn3m0 wrote:
             | GitHub's Audit logging is quite lacking, it doesn't include
             | API requests.
        
         | twistedpair wrote:
         | IAM on GitHub needs so much <3. So broad, much ow.
         | 
         | For example, I trialed major security vendor's enterprise
         | product. They required their app be granted Admin on the GitHub
         | org. All they needed to do was create issues, PRs, and read
         | source code for analysis. There are scopes for that.
         | 
         | I was eventually on a call with a principle engineer in this
         | company, who kept saying they needed this permissions, and I
         | kept showing him the API docs that showed that wasn't so.
         | Eventually he said, "well, we won't _use_ all those
         | permissions, so just give them to us anyway, because it's
         | easier this way." Sure, I'll give you the ability to change all
         | my code, add/remove users, drop repos... etc, and trust that
         | some day, when you're hacked, someone will not use those over
         | granted permissions maliciously?
         | 
         | Security is hard. Be careful what permissions you give your 3rd
         | party GitHub integrations.
        
           | briffle wrote:
           | Ask them to sign a document accepting all liability in those
           | situations. I think the conversation will quickly change..
        
             | throwawayacc3 wrote:
             | "Sorry, we don't accept redlines or riders for accounts
             | that are less than $750k ACV."
        
           | alice-i-cecile wrote:
           | I had exactly this same experience with Vercel, and we backed
           | out of using them for our major open source repo as a result.
        
           | maartenh wrote:
           | Ugh. Doesn't raise the trust in their competence of
           | protecting admin access credentials to GitHub. The same
           | mindset leads to "We use just one shared ssh cert, because it
           | is easier. And our VPN solution is a 2nd factor in any case".
        
           | phpisthebest wrote:
           | >>"well, we won't _use_ all those permissions, so just give
           | them to us anyway, because it's easier this way."
           | 
           | Devs have been doing that since the dawn on computing. Ohh
           | your App needs to be able to write to a protected folder on
           | windows. Dont document what folder just force the app the run
           | as Admin.
           | 
           | Early Android Apps asked for all the permissions, all the
           | time because of lazy devs
           | 
           | security is hard, and gets in the way of what the devs wnat
           | to do so they just find ways to bypass it
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | Early Android had pretty coarse permissions IIRC. It wasn't
             | quite "root or nothing" but somewhat closer to that than it
             | is today.
        
             | elecush wrote:
             | "because of lazy devs" :thinking:
        
               | makestuff wrote:
               | Definitely not because of the pesky product managers and
               | sales teams who want a new feature to sell yesterday to
               | boost their EOY bonus...
        
           | nettrino wrote:
           | Definitely - also its pretty easy to lose track of all
           | things. Started a tool to audit github apps and misc
           | permissions for an org which is currently basic atm but
           | hopefully in the future more checks will be added - 3rd party
           | integrations and apps are up there:
           | https://github.com/crashappsec/github-analyzer. Any issues or
           | feature requests are welcome and hopefully will expand it
           | soon!
        
           | sebazzz wrote:
           | > I trialed major security vendor's enterprise product
           | 
           | > just give them to us anyway, because it's easier this way
           | 
           | Wow. The state of security is still sad in our profession, if
           | even major security vendor(s) don't adhere to basic
           | principles like "principle of least privilege".
        
             | justinclift wrote:
             | Heh. Reminds of one of Symantec's "Enterprise" products.
             | 
             | Turned out, if you're logged into the central (on prem)
             | server it has the ability to run commands as root/superuser
             | on any of the connected clients (generally servers
             | themselves).
             | 
             | The commands run this way are _not logged_ and don't show
             | up in any system audit logging.
             | 
             | After we pointed this out as a security problem in itself,
             | they released a new version that _apparently_ had this
             | functionality removed (was in the release notes).
             | 
             | But digging into the new release, they'd just moved the
             | functionality into different binaries and hoped no-one
             | would notice. :(
             | 
             | The mind boggles at what some of these places will try.
        
               | slowmovintarget wrote:
               | "Required functionality..." They're just not telling you
               | who the requirements come from.
        
             | ratg13 wrote:
             | It's not just security vendors, it's everyone.
             | 
             | You can't even set up popular software like Tailscale with
             | a github login without it _requiring_ access to your
             | organization 's private repositories.
             | 
             | It's like mobile phone permissions in the old days where
             | your calculator needs access to your contacts and location.
             | 
             | I thought technology companies learned this lesson a decade
             | ago, apparently not.
        
           | ollien wrote:
           | It was only recently that PATs got the ability to be scoped
           | per repo, and even that's still in beta.
        
             | everfrustrated wrote:
             | But frustratingly fine grained scoping doesn't work for
             | repos part of an Organisation! Like, what!
        
         | IanCal wrote:
         | > - It only says "access to code repositories" (it does not say
         | anything about the level of that access, it might as well mean
         | write access, capability to trigger actions etc.)
         | 
         | Given the exceptionally broad granularity of github permissions
         | with oauth at least I'd be concerned. I've repeatedly had to
         | avoid using something because while I wanted to grant
         | permission to, say, read one particular repo I'd have to allow
         | write access to all private repos. Githubs solution is to give
         | broad access to a user that has limited access, although then
         | they shout at you for creating more users if you're not a
         | paying member yourself (but may be in an organisation).
         | 
         | https://docs.github.com/en/developers/apps/building-oauth-ap...
        
           | e1g wrote:
           | GitHub recently introduced fine-grained tokens that can be
           | scoped to a single repository that might work for your use-
           | case https://github.blog/2022-10-18-introducing-fine-grained-
           | pers...
        
             | twistedpair wrote:
             | I'm excited for FGPATs, but they're still in beta and still
             | have a lot of shortcomings at this time.
        
             | ChymeraXYZ wrote:
             | Unfortunately this only seems to be available for repos you
             | own yourself and not if an org owns the repo, making it
             | useless in a company context until that is expanded. Great
             | for personal stuff tho.
        
               | drothlis wrote:
               | Fine-grained access tokens are available on org-owned
               | repos too, but the org has to opt in (for some reason).
        
               | e1g wrote:
               | They work, but the organization needs to approve the
               | token (and its scope). As an org admin, I prefer it this
               | way because I can audit what access developers give out
               | to what repositories.
               | 
               | The new tokens are still in Beta, so there are some other
               | limitations: for example, GitHub Packages do not support
               | them yet, so you cannot use them in NPM/yarn to get your
               | private packages hosted on GitHub.
        
               | Aeolun wrote:
               | Doesn't this rather defeat the point? If using a PAT is
               | simpler than using the org token then I'll just use a PAT
               | that has access to every single repository in the org.
        
               | e1g wrote:
               | GitHub Org admins have the option to block all regular
               | PATs, and only allow fine-grained tokens that they pre-
               | approve. This block is "off" by default, but I expect the
               | best practice soon will be to enforce this rule.
        
               | Aeolun wrote:
               | Oh, aside from the pre-approval, that would be really
               | nice. I need stuff scoped to the org that is not
               | necessarily connected to my personal account (and all
               | it's repositories).
        
             | likeclockwork wrote:
             | GitLab has had this feature for years.
        
           | awinter-py wrote:
           | overbroad roles + permissions is such a problem on every
           | platform. github surprisingly bad given their technical
           | sophistication overall
           | 
           | on my long-term wishlist: a standard way to aspirationally
           | reduce your permissions footprint
           | 
           | like if I'm a twitter plugin, and I need one operation for
           | which there is only a broad permission, I request the broad
           | permission ('read and write everything'), but include an
           | optional manifest making it clear that I only need the one
           | action ('add followers')
           | 
           | this 1) enables a linter ecosystem to verify my footprint is
           | narrower than it seems, and 2) over time lets the platform
           | tailor offer narrower perms based on observed use-cases
           | 
           | permissions matter bc users can audit them more easily than
           | code
        
         | avisser wrote:
         | Since GitHub alerted Okta, I'm assuming they use the regular,
         | hosted github.com. I'm kinda shocked a security company doesn't
         | have a private GitHub Enterprise server behind a firewall.
        
           | baq wrote:
           | if they had, it'd be worse - they'd probably never know they
           | were hacked...
        
           | AtNightWeCode wrote:
           | One would assume that their code is never accessible over the
           | public Internet. It is pretty much over for Okta now.
        
           | trallnag wrote:
           | So you expect "critical" companies to self-host everything?
        
           | int0x2e wrote:
           | Hosting something yourself does not make it magically more
           | secure. Even if you hire a small team of really smart people,
           | they'd have to work pretty hard to do as good of a job as the
           | many 100s working on security at GitHub...
        
       | ngc6677 wrote:
       | Well, let's see how it goes for security by obfuscation; glhf
        
       | neets wrote:
       | At what point are the banks hacked and we just don't know?
        
         | jbverschoor wrote:
         | They get hacked and robbed regularly. But they'll never
         | disclose to prevent a run on the bank. There are just a lot of
         | "service interruptions", like online banking not working for a
         | few hours
        
           | Grimburger wrote:
           | Don't most western countries have disclosure laws now? This
           | doesn't sound right, not in Australia at least, it would be
           | completely illegal to cover such a thing up and not notify
           | the government cyber agencies.
        
             | Swizec wrote:
             | Telling the government is not the same as telling you, the
             | consumer.
             | 
             | Do disclosure laws say anything about end users? Even if
             | said users aren't affected?
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | GDPR (so the whole of the EU+UK) does, yes.
        
             | SXX wrote:
             | If you google for "us bank data breach" you'll find plenty
             | of examples of this happening and being disclosed. However
             | banking regulations are strict and banks own systems are
             | designed to be resistant to insider attacks. So everything
             | usually designed to keep different kind of data within bank
             | own systems isolated and audited.
             | 
             | In most of small and middle sized IT companies there is
             | rarely any security measures against insider attacks or
             | just accidental leaks if someone been too incompetent when
             | it come to security. So leaks of sensetive data happen far
             | more often since plenty of SWE and DevOps can easily get
             | access to all the production databases.
             | 
             | As result deployment of some single line fix in code of
             | some critical system in a major bank might easily take 3-6
             | months.
        
           | dzikimarian wrote:
           | In EU you have to inform proper officials and everyone who
           | were impacted. Failure to do so may result in fine up to 10
           | mln euro or 2% global revenue. There's some reports - not
           | that many. Honestly I would say that the banks are not very
           | attractive target - it's not easy to extract reasonable
           | amount of money that way (better to directly scam end user),
           | and security is usually at least a bit above average, so for
           | personal data it's easier to hack some e-commerce store.
        
         | SXX wrote:
         | They are hacked, but you will never know or be personally
         | affected. This is why banks are strictly regulated and have
         | insurance for everything and agreements with whoever manage
         | their IT and security.
        
           | pas wrote:
           | > you will never know
           | 
           | maybe. GDPR has a notification of breach requirement. we
           | shall see.
        
             | Nextgrid wrote:
             | GDPR enforcement is laughable. Come back when Facebook and
             | Google are fined out of existence and then you'll have a
             | point.
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | Obligatory https://www.enforcementtracker.com
               | 
               | With regards to Facebook and Google, there are recent
               | news on that front:
               | 
               | https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/28/facebook-gdpr-penalty/
               | 
               | https://www.thedrum.com/news/2022/11/15/googles-400m-pena
               | lty...
        
               | Nextgrid wrote:
               | My point is that the "obligatory" link is getting
               | annoying when tallying up the total amount of fines over
               | the last 4 years across _all_ companies is still less
               | than the yearly profit of the _single_ biggest offender.
               | 
               | And yes, the news you mention are welcome but I'm not
               | holding my breath - they've been allowed to brazenly
               | breach the regulation for 4 years and one of the
               | regulators even ended up being corrupt and collaborated
               | with them behind the scenes.
        
             | SXX wrote:
             | GDPR is only applies when personal data is involved. Banks
             | usually have all client data well isolated from everyone
             | including most of IT staff so credit card data being stolen
             | isn't always mean that personal data is affected.
        
           | Bombthecat wrote:
           | You can't outsource accountability.
        
             | mschuster91 wrote:
             | Oh yes you absolutely can. C-level execs routinely get D&O
             | insurance that covers for everything financial... the only
             | thing that a C-level exec can't get out of is jail time,
             | but it's rare that courts hand out jail time.
        
               | Bombthecat wrote:
               | That is responsibility. You outsource to, let's say,
               | okta, okta takes an insurance. Payment goes down the
               | chain.
               | 
               | The accountability to pick okta and check if they are,
               | let's say within gdpr is on you!
        
         | neets wrote:
         | Maybe some people have audited the fed!?
        
       | nonethewiser wrote:
       | Didnt Okta have another security breach recently?
        
         | wepple wrote:
         | 2021: office network breach via a security camera
         | 
         | 2022: hacker group leaked customer information stolen from
         | third part customer support engineer.
         | 
         | 2022: this one
         | 
         | So not the worst breaches, but also definitely what you want
         | happening to your identity provider.
         | 
         | Edit: formatting
        
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