[HN Gopher] Power company money flows to news sites that attack ...
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Power company money flows to news sites that attack their critics
Author : danso
Score : 215 points
Date : 2022-12-19 18:41 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| germinalphrase wrote:
| For those interested, the Energy and Policy Institute follows
| these kinds of moves, and their newsletter is informative.
|
| https://www.energyandpolicy.org/
| WalterBright wrote:
| Every outfit tries to influence news sites.
| chaostheory wrote:
| It's probably not just power companies. I would be surprised if
| Wall Street firms and other large industries didn't also do this
| practice.
|
| https://www.openculture.com/2014/09/conspiracy-theory-rock.h...
|
| Media bias is a big problem.
| WalterBright wrote:
| The government also tries to influence news sites.
| ejb999 wrote:
| thats an understatement....
| SQueeeeeL wrote:
| How could media bias be a problem in a free market like the
| USA? Obviously all consumers will simply stop consuming news
| media that gets sponsored by big evil corporations and only
| support those who advocate for free open truth.
|
| Wait, what do you mean every major news organization in the US
| is owned by billionaires or media conglomerates, dang, we
| didn't free market hard enough.
| chaostheory wrote:
| At least there's a choice with capitalism. Not to mention
| that we can consume foreign media if we wish. With socialism
| there's only one choice and power is much more concentrated.
| Like capitalism, socialism isn't immune to corruption. The
| difference is the much greater concentration of power in one
| place for socialism which exacerbates the problem of
| corruption.
|
| I don't deny that we're either experiencing or about to
| experience late stage capitalism, but socialism tends to hit
| the late stage much faster as we've seen in the 20th century.
| diordiderot wrote:
| > With socialism there's only one choice and power is much
| more concentrated
|
| What makes you think that? I'm pretty sure socialism is an
| economic system not a political one
| WalterBright wrote:
| > How could media bias be a problem in a free market like the
| USA?
|
| Every media is biased. The free market solution is to allow
| anyone to be a media company, so the various viewpoints are
| available.
|
| > we didn't free market hard enough
|
| You being free to post your views here is evidence the free
| market is working.
| klyrs wrote:
| Adam Smith was pretty clear that monopolies were antithetical
| to what he called a free market. If consumers had a choice,
| they'd consume different news, under his theory. But the
| market is captured by a small handful of billionaires. The US
| is not a free market.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| I guess the problem is that monopolies naturally form in a
| completely unrestricted market. So to make Adam Smith's
| free market, some kind of restrictions are required. But a
| lot of people think a "free market" is one with few
| restrictions.
|
| Either way what we really have is capture of the government
| by a wealthy elite, and what they try to use the government
| for is to socialize risks and privatize profits. Whatever
| pure theories there are out there and no matter how much
| sense they make, the practical effects of private wealth
| concentration is elite control of the government.
| mistermann wrote:
| Whether this would be possible under a more sophisticated
| implementation of democracy seems like a useful thing to
| contemplate, but we shan't discuss modifying _our most
| sacred institution_ , as only far right Russian trolls
| think of such things as we all well know from our
| training courses.
| JetAlone wrote:
| klabb3 wrote:
| Even Milton Friedman said that prevention of monopolies was
| a legitimate and even necessary cause for government
| intervention, in order to _preserve_ the free market.
|
| Free market [?] corporate capitalism. At least it didn't
| use to be. Free market rhetoric is almost always using
| small businesses in their story telling, in which there is
| _a lot_ of competition and an implicit level field. How to
| handle the vast concentration of power and wealth is
| basically outside the scope of most of these theorizers,
| which is unfortunate because it's our biggest practical
| issue, imo.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Monopolies are to free markets like evil/incompetent
| dictators are to socialism: they might not be a core tenant
| of the philosophy, they may even be antithetical to the
| core tenants of the philosophy, but they sure seem to be
| encouraged by the practical mechanics of the philosophy.
| kube-system wrote:
| What people really want when they says "free markets" are
| _competitive_ markets first, and free markets second. If we
| have freedom at the expense of competition, we 'll end up
| with neither.
|
| The most "free" markets are not the ones with the least
| regulation, as some might presume, but the ones with just
| right amount of regulation.
| greggarious wrote:
| > _Adam Smith was pretty clear that monopolies were
| antithetical to what he called a free market... The US is
| not a free market._
|
| The last time I pointed out the above in DC, I was called a
| communist and literally hounded out of the bar. (What is it
| with people who don't understand economics often also
| wanting to abuse the label of "service animal"? Someone
| should commission a study IMHO.)
| rhacker wrote:
| _ money flows to news sites that attack their critics.
|
| Fill in the blank, tautology.
| dikaio wrote:
| nopenopenopeno wrote:
| >We like to point the finger here in the US about how corrupt
| Russia, Ukraine or any other country is but we're no Saints.
|
| Our finger-pointing is not due to coincidence; it's due to
| conflict. Specifically, the conflict is between the inherent
| interests of competing national ruling classes.
|
| >The executives of these companies should have their addresses
| listed as well as all the politicians on the take and let the
| people do with them what they will.
|
| The executives of these companies answer to the company owners
| (corporate boards) who collectively control the state by
| leverage of capital. Because we are a capitalist society, the
| owners of the capital have the power. Any apparent exceptions
| will always be withheld from accumulating meaningful influence,
| short of revolution by the working class.
|
| In other words, this is not a matter of faulty policy. It is a
| conflict of power. Let's discuss it as such.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Let's not hint at having people attacked by angry mobs here.
| [deleted]
| hayst4ck wrote:
| Constructively, when people are out of reach of regulation or
| seeing consequences for their clearly unethical actions, how
| do you suggest solving that problem, particularly without an
| angry mob?
|
| How do you propose bringing corrupt politicans or
| billionaires to the bargaining table? What would they be
| bargaining for, if not peace?
|
| Do you think violence is always wrong? When is violence
| justified?
|
| If the state is to have the only morally justified use of
| violence, what can be done when a state uses violence to
| oppress, enslave, or promote only the interests of the
| wealthy class?
| nopenopenopeno wrote:
| That and collective withholding of the labor power of the
| working class (strikes) are the only 2 ways any national
| ruling class has ever been meaningfully opposed. Take your
| pick and do everything you can to make it happen first.
| colechristensen wrote:
| That is a very shallow angry view of the modern world which
| leaves out so many methods the people have successfully
| used to exercise their power.
|
| Voting, for example.
|
| I, for one, will likely never be in a position where it
| makes sense to go on strike and you won't find me with a
| pitchfork and torch at the home of the latest social
| target. There are other methods, and much more needed ones
| than strife and violence in the 21st century.
| mxkopy wrote:
| Game theory says otherwise. If there's a substantive
| distinction between the rich and the poor, then the
| interests that align them need to be greater than their
| own individual interests for any sort of peace to work.
| As it stands, the rich frequently engage in bottom-of-
| the-barrel, self-interested machinations, so it makes 0
| sense from a game perspective for the poor to refrain
| from doing the same.
|
| The obvious answer is to make the distinction not
| substantive, i.e. have a middle class; unfortunately the
| U.S. seems too preoccupied with other things to enact
| this solution
| hayst4ck wrote:
| This game:
|
| https://ncase.me/trust/
|
| Showcases exactly the point mxkopy is making.
|
| When you let people who defect profit, then you will
| create more defectors. Lack of punishment makes crime a
| winning strategy.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > the rich frequently engage in bottom-of-the-barrel,
| self-interested machinations
|
| Of course they do. So do you, and everyone else.
| DFHippie wrote:
| In a certain sense this is true. Giving to charity is a
| self-interested machination because the giver gets
| something out of the transaction: satisfaction, a belief
| in their own goodness and self-worth, the esteem of
| others, maybe a ticket to heaven. But in a more useful
| sense this is false. We use "self-interested
| machinations" to describe things that are deceptive and
| harmful to others, not adopting puppies. Even people who
| apply the nihilistic self-interest-all-the-way down
| argument to neutralize criticism in one case will tend to
| abandon it in another and become the critic.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| In the fight between the rich and poor, voting is not
| very effective when both parties have been captured by
| the wealthy.
|
| However there are effective non-violent means of change,
| like organizing labor power, mutual aid, and supporting
| legal funds to help get the laws changed.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| And unfortunately they severely curtailed the potential for
| mass strikes in 1947:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act
| dang wrote:
| Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34057162.
| (This is not a response to the content of your comment
| here. I'm just adding a reply to your most recent post
| since the previous comment is already a day or two old. It
| doesn't seem fair to do that if you don't see it.)
| adolph wrote:
| A significant amount of money transferred for political
| purposes falls within campaign finance reporting which includes
| contact information for the transaction. I'm sure this is used
| broadly for folks to make funding pitches to donors but cold
| calling is a tough way to start fundraising.
| shadowofneptune wrote:
| Certainly gives another meaning to 'the power company.'
| mixdup wrote:
| Somehow I knew this was going to be Alabama Power before I
| clicked the link
|
| This is just scratching the surface. To any normal person this
| sounds like a massive scandal on its own but this is just what
| they've allowed to get out. The corruption in state and local
| government in the states served by Southern Company's electric
| utilities would make Putin blush
|
| For example, Alabama Power's former CEO is on the board of
| directors of Regions Financial Corporation, based in Alabama, and
| a top 25 bank in the US
| throwawayacc3 wrote:
| They also launder their corruption through "woke washing". A
| great example being a study by PG&E's utility-backed front that
| made the claim that increasing rates of solar panel installations
| on houses will raise costs that get shouldered by poor BIPOCs
| [0]. That means the state should pass net metering changes that
| greatly favor PG&E, and if you're against them, you're a racist.
| They got what they wanted.
|
| [0] https://calssa.org/blog/2021/6/5/debunking-the-cost-shift-
| de...
| korroziya wrote:
| Your link is from a trade association made up of Solar power
| interests. How is that any less biased?
| GoToRO wrote:
| Off topic: There was an ad that tried to make fun of green
| energy by having the Eiffel Tower converted to a wind turbine.
| The ad stated that even that will not be enough. I believe the
| company was Shell. Does anyone have a link to that ad?
| fleventynine wrote:
| Regardless of the racism argument, it seems obvious to me that
| NEM 2.0 is forcing those who can't afford a solar system to
| purchase overpriced power from those who can.
|
| I wish we'd just charge/pay people the instantaneous market
| rate of power. And at noon on a sunny summer day in California,
| the market rate should be pretty close to zero. Nowadays, the
| grid needs more storage and peaking generation than it does
| more solar panels, so we should stop artificially incentivizing
| rooftop solar panels.
| [deleted]
| brodouevencode wrote:
| Here's another way of framing this headline: "A company that
| provides critical services has lobbyists - just like pharma,
| hospital networks, national defense, and food and agriculture."
| pessimizer wrote:
| Instead of volunteering PR and adding distractions, it might be
| better to say that power companies have "lobbyists" that bribe
| news sites in return for slandering critics of those companies.
|
| Even though it's strange to call people who bribe news outlets
| rather than politicians "lobbyists," because that sort of begs
| the question.
| coding123 wrote:
| Shorter even: Lobbyists Exist.
| fleddr wrote:
| Oh, I guess it's fine then. They all do it.
|
| Your framing is way worse. It shows nihilism and fits downright
| criminal/corrupt behavior under the much more neutral term
| "lobbying".
| mitchellst wrote:
| I think there's a bit more to it than that.
|
| It appears that a significant chunk of the local online news
| market in these regions is only financially viable based on
| pay-for-coverage arrangements with moneyed interests.
|
| So, I agree, lobbyists gonna lobby. And some of the lines in
| the article are pearl clutching. (GASP a utility company
| donated to a SuperPAC that opposed a ballot initiative? Yeah,
| that's normal. You might not like Citizens United, but that's
| just something they did, not something they're "accused" of.)
|
| But to the extent that you have a crop of local-interest news
| and politics websites that present as objective but, based on
| the quotes in the articles, wouldn't be able to exist without
| opaque financial arrangements that slant coverage... yeah, it's
| a genuine media story. Less about the power company, and more
| about journalism. (Which, indeed, Folkenflik is NPR's media
| reporter.)
|
| Alabama has high electric rates, an unusually profitable
| utility company, and this arrangement has proven durable. For
| me, that's a good enough "so what" for a New York based media
| reporter to condescend to the journalistic ethics of these
| Southern publications. It's not just academic; it's harming
| people.
| jfengel wrote:
| Everybody has lobbyists, but there are legal limits on
| lobbying. Lobbyists have to register and make some of their
| activities transparent. They're not allowed to be used for
| laundering money in political donations, which are sharply
| limited. Giving money to a newspaper to support a candidate may
| cross that line. It would take an FEC (or state equivalent)
| investigation to make a judgment (and probably the courts would
| want a say in it, too).
|
| Newspapers also have ethical limits. Ethical limits aren't
| legally enforceable, but for the most part major newspapers
| don't allow pharma, hospitals, defense, etc. to cross those
| lines. There are always exceptions, I'm sure, but the
| newspapers still cling to the hope that they'll be seen as
| accurate rather than simply shilling for whoever pays them. It
| undercuts their entire mission.
|
| So this isn't the same as the usual round of lobbying. Lobbying
| is a legal and regulated activity, a way for groups to
| coordinate access to politicians and plan their public
| relations. That always has the risk of being shady, but it's
| more above-board than most people imagine.
|
| Except when the rules are broken, and in that case it might be
| a crime. That's newsworthy.
| tenpies wrote:
| Also: a news agency receiving funding from a US administration
| that hates some industries, is here to tell you just how bad
| those industries are.
|
| May as well be in Canada.
| adolph wrote:
| NPR is going a great job with this. Another interesting report
| they have is at National Public Media (which receives corp
| sponsors for NPR, PBS, etc):
|
| _How do brands establish trust? A ground-breaking new study from
| NPR and Neuro-Insight explores how a platform can transfer its
| trustworthiness to sponsors, what the subconscious can tell us
| about purchase intent and the effectiveness of NPR radio
| sponsorship vs. commercial TV news._
|
| https://www.nationalpublicmedia.com/insights/
| mikeyouse wrote:
| This is an important subject - there is something deeply rotten
| in the utility world in the South. There are a bunch of stories
| you wouldn't think are connected, but all have major utilities in
| the background. From 'fake news' sites set up to smear
| candidates, to huge bribes paid via nonprofits, to sham
| candidates backed by the utility running in close elections, to
| capital plans that include hundreds of millions of dollars in
| case of snow in Miami.. I really hope the FBI is working on this;
|
| * Ex-Florida senator charged in fake candidate scheme
| (https://apnews.com/article/miami-senate-elections-florida-el...)
|
| * Florida's dark money playbook: How 'ghost' candidate scheme
| revealed secretive political tactics
| (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-ne-dark-money-ghost-...)
|
| * Firm working for FPL took control of news site, let execs
| influence coverage, records show (https://www.sun-
| sentinel.com/news/florida/os-ne-fpl-matrix-c...)
|
| * Nonprofit funded with FPL cash backed DeSantis' 2018 campaign
| (https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/09/06/no...)
|
| * Joel Greenberg alleged far-reaching public corruption in
| Florida jailhouse interview
| (https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/09/07/jo...)
|
| * Leaked: US power companies secretly spending millions to
| protect profits and fight clean energy
| (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/leaked-u...)
|
| * Tom Fanning Southern Company Matrix Scandal: What don't we
| know? (https://www.energyandpolicy.org/tom-fanning-southern-
| company...)
|
| * FPL's extreme winter plan would create 'unnecessary' costs to
| consumers, critics say
| (https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/business/2022/06/28/flor...)
| eclarkso wrote:
| Don't forget:
|
| * $10B+ wasted on completely failed SC nuclear plant, which
| basically led to its collapse and subsequent buyout by out-of-
| state (Dominion) utility https://apnews.com/article/sc-state-
| wire-south-carolina-busi...
|
| * GA version is still lurching to completion... at cost now
| approaching $30B https://www.ajc.com/news/as-vogtles-nuclear-
| units-move-towar...
| bilbo0s wrote:
| Vogtie really is going to scare a lot of people off from
| nuclear for a very long time. I think ultimately, the federal
| government will need to assume responsibility for the
| construction and operation of nuclear plants. And when future
| generations look into why that is, Vogtie will be right up at
| the top of the list of reasons.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Thanks for collecting these. It's interesting that these issues
| don't (appear) to plague larger utilities like the TVA[1],
| which seems to be actively exploring and developing renewable
| projects.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Valley_Authority
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not sure what it is about the TVA -- feels almost
| like DARPA in a way. Something about the staffing and
| organization has led to a model utility. They're not without
| minor scandal occasionally but given the amount of political
| power they wield, maybe it's the distinction that TVA is
| government-owned and NextERA (who runs FPL) and Southern
| Company are both for-profit corporations?
| gumby wrote:
| TVA is a federal project, not a state regulatory body.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Apolitical civil service government organizations are good
| at sustained operations and incremental growth/change. They
| are bad at rapid change. The controls they have are
| reasonably effective at preventing the type of corruption
| that you see.
|
| The coal/rail/electric supply chain is a breeding ground
| for all sorts of shenanigans for all sorts of people.
| Plenty of drunken uncles have bullshit jobs in the utility
| and rail space. That culture permeates into new projects as
| well.
|
| In the Federal space, that kind of crap doesn't fly for
| long.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| You can also maybe extend that further to the people behind
| the decisions to make something private or public. If
| you're looking to commit crimes, you're probably going to
| have an easier time in the private sector.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Ha. Well maybe technically. In the government sector, you
| may control what the definition of a crime is, or maybe
| you exempt yourself from the laws that apply to everyone
| else (looking at you, Congress).
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| FPL (through a third party) also hired a private investigator
| to follow around a local opinion columnist because he was
| writing articles against the proposed privatization of
| Jacksonville's municipal utility company.
|
| https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2022/06/24/fpl...
| metaphor wrote:
| Also worth mentioning the related scandal[1] of JEA's former
| CEO and CFO attempting to sneak in a "Long-Term Incentive
| Performance Unit Plan" that would have paid out hundreds of
| millions of taxpayer dollars as bonuses to executives if "a
| recapitalization event (including a sale of JEA) occurred,
| meaning payouts would have been funded by net proceeds to the
| COJ from the sale of JEA."
|
| Entirely unsurprising who the top private bidder was[2].
|
| [1] https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2022/03/07/
| for...
|
| [2] https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/08/26/
| nex...
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