[HN Gopher] Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars
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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars
Author : clouddrover
Score : 162 points
Date : 2022-12-18 15:31 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.recurrentauto.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.recurrentauto.com)
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Wait, judging from some comments people actually take heating and
| winter tires into consideration when calculating differences in
| mileage?
|
| But I have to disagree. You have to use heating and winter tires
| during winter. The correct calculation should be take that out
| first and then compare the numbers. For example if heating and
| winter tires take say 100 miles, full mileage says 500, but car
| stops around 300 miles, then it loses 100 miles, not 200 miles.
| For sure ordinary people don't know how many miles heating and
| winter tires take away but researchers should be able to test
| them separately.
| killjoywashere wrote:
| Uh, you don't loose range to heating in an ICE engine. The
| heater is just a secondary radiator, so it actually improves
| engine efficiency. Old trick for driving an under-powered car
| over the Rockies in the summer: open the windows and turn the
| heater on.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| You don't lose "range" on an ICE vehicle but you definitely
| lose mileage efficiency. But ICE vehicles also just throw off
| insane amounts of wasted energy in the form of heat all year
| long and in the winter some of it gets converted into
| comfort.
|
| People are just accustomed to throwing that money away, I
| guess.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Not all of them do. My diesel VW struggles to maintain
| coolant temperature in really cold weather, and even in
| summer the radiator fans almost never turn on unless the AC
| is used. When it's -25C out it takes 10-15 minutes before I
| get full heat out of the vents (hooray for heated seats),
| and if I pull up to a stop light with the heater on the
| coolant temperature immediately starts to drop. And there's
| nothing wrong with my car; they're all like that. And the
| fuel efficiency reflects it: I normally get about 5 L/100
| km (46 mpG).
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| yeah I recall my old VW Jetta TDI taking longer than I
| thought it should to heat up in the winter. Which I
| always found strange considering the amount of BTUs in
| diesel and how well my (at the time) diesel oil furnace
| was at heating up my house right away and also how small
| the cabin was.
|
| In any case, my Chevy Volt heats up the cabin pretty
| fast. Though once it gets below -10C the stupid thing
| kicks on the ICE even though it doesn't need to.
| Something to do with regulations around ICE drivetrain
| components and temperatures. It just uses it to heat up
| coolant lines for the ICE itself, even when I have no
| desire to use the ICE.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| All those BTUs get turned into motion, not heat.
| petee wrote:
| Fun history, the '60s Corvair had an optional fuel-fired
| heater, which my dad swore by as a great holdover in the
| winter while waiting for the engine to warm up.
| [deleted]
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| People around here put warm non-flammable fabric in front of
| radiators and cover their engines in winter because it
| significantly improves gas mileage and doesn't push the
| engine into overheating -- the air is cold enough (-30degC
| and below) that it's not an issue.
| roody15 wrote:
| Yes northerner checking in here. Yes in the winter at sub zero
| temps your cars battery looses half of its starting crank amps.
| Half just from the low temps.
|
| Makes complete sense that an EV would have much worse performance
| in winter conditions. Further longevity of such vehicle would
| likely be much less than one found it warmer temps.
|
| We still have a ways to go to solve EV issues for mass
| adoption... however am optimistic that we are on the right path.
| lazide wrote:
| As with all things 'it depends' - most EV's have battery
| thermal management that will heat up/cool down the pack so it's
| within its optimal range.
|
| If the EV is left plugged in overnight, it's probably going to
| be in better shape than an ICE car with a block and battery
| heater.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Do EV's keep their batteries warm electrically? I know some RV
| LiPo batteries have integrated heaters to keep the batteries from
| going below freezing. I suspect that's an acceptable tradeoff in
| cold climates. Ideally you would keep the battery warm while
| charging since it's more or less free power when tethered, and
| thermally insulate the battery enclosure to try to retain that
| heat as long as possible.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| As an aside, many former-Soviet-bloc vehicle manuals mention
| switching the headlights on for a couple of minutes before
| attempting to start the car in extremely cold weather.
|
| The reason is that pulling ~10A or so causes enough resistive
| heating that the battery voltage will go *up* over that time,
| and allow the lead-acid battery chemistry to work better when
| you throw a couple of hundred amps of starter motor across it.
|
| Edit: typo
| mrexroad wrote:
| > thermally insulate the battery enclosure to try to retain
| that heat as long as possible
|
| Might pose a problem during heavy discharge with 105F ambient
| temps?
| Unklejoe wrote:
| You could use heat exchangers (coolant) with a thermostat. It
| would stay closed until the batteries reached a certain
| temperature then it would dissipate heat through a radiator.
| Just like a coolant system on an ICE car.
| 51Cards wrote:
| I wonder though if there would have to be a balance, as you
| wouldn't want it to over-heat when charging during an Arizona
| summer.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Most EVs will both heat and cool their batteries as needed
| when plugged in to maintain a healthy temperature.
| dieortin wrote:
| Insulation also works to keep heat out.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Doing this in a passive way would put significant upper
| limits on charging speed. You'd have to combine insulation
| with some active way of getting rid of excess heat.
| yebyen wrote:
| Or in - a battery while charging tends to emit quite a lot
| of heat on its own, doesn't it?
| dahfizz wrote:
| Not if the battery itself is generating heat. Then the
| insulation keeps the heat in.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Some do; the article lists some of them in the lower car-
| specific section. Mine [Nissan LEAF] runs an electric heater
| when the battery is below -20degC [-4degF], which is slightly
| different than the article [article says -1degF].
|
| The problem with thermal insulation of the battery enclosure is
| that you want the battery to cool towards ambient in most
| conditions, so if you use ambient air cooling only [as the LEAF
| does], you probably don't want to do much thermal insulation
| for the rare times when it's below -20degC. Most EVs have a
| more active cooling solution, which could allow for thermal
| insulation of the pack while still having adequate cooling via
| a water/coolant loop.
| 2000UltraDeluxe wrote:
| That doesn't sound very practical; keeping the batteries of all
| cars warm 24/7 would require immense amounts of electricity on
| a country-wide scale. It's not like everyone have heated
| garages, and outdoor temperatures often reach -30c or below in
| arctic climates.
| lazide wrote:
| 1) the batteries are insulated
|
| 2) you don't need to keep them warm 24/7, just above freezing
| when charging them or and/or when you want more efficiency or
| maximum power (like a longer trip, or midway through a
| drive).
|
| ICE engines are quite inefficient when 'cold' (and diesel may
| refuse to run at all), this isn't a new problem.
|
| The batteries don't need to be warm by human standards, and
| the vehicle will still work even when quite cold, just not
| very well.
| jws wrote:
| The common RV battery for cold weather is a LiFePO4 battery.
| These can be used down to -20degC (-4degF), but you must not
| charge them below freezing, it will destroy the electrodes. The
| batteries integrate a heater which absorbs charging energy
| until the battery is safely warm enough to accept the charge,
| then charges normally.
|
| In an EV this would be handled when charging by running a
| heater until it is a safe to accept charge. When driving, any
| time the battery becomes too cold you would divert regenerative
| braking energy into heating the batteries instead.
| jakewins wrote:
| In the end it's not clear to me that the winter range reduction
| will matter; battery learning rate is about 20% per production
| doubling, and there must be another 2-3 doublings (or more?)
| before the sigmoid levels off.
|
| So, by the time 50%+ of new cars in US are EV, you can buy
| something with 2-3x the range of today at todays price point.
|
| And the range today is not bad; on Friday I drove 200 miles in my
| Kona, in 5F with winter tires, stopped to eat and then drove
| another 200 miles.. like, road tripping is _for sure_ less smooth
| than with gasoline, but it's marginally worse, not show stopper,
| and is gap rapidly closing.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| Also hot weather. I rented a Model S over a weekend and got less
| than the 60% of the advertised range because it was 44 C (111 F)
| outside. With the air conditioning running at max and the battery
| pack likely overheating, the expected range just wasn't there.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Keep in mind ICEs lose range in winter as well. I used to
| hypermile on occasion and I could get 500 miles on a tank in
| summer but 350-400 in winter.
|
| The air is more dense, the tires are probably less efficient, the
| wind is stronger, and cold start efficiency is reduced.
| topspin wrote:
| > Keep in mind ICEs lose range in winter as well.
|
| Yes, this talking point has been made enough times. What isn't
| said is the ICE range loss is trivially simple to overcome: buy
| fuel more frequently.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| This does not translate well to EVs as they have nothing to
| start and don't use air to move.
| Geee wrote:
| How did they collect the data? It seems to be some kind of
| crowdsourcing. It's not possible to accurately determine range if
| they don't run them completely out of charge. It's doubtful that
| they got that many datapoints on every vehicle and every
| temperature.
| api wrote:
| The Leaf has a bad reputation for this but this shows it's toward
| the middle of the pack. I have one and this matches my
| experience.
|
| Of course I have a 2022 and this looks at later models. Maybe
| older models were a lot worse. They've changed up the battery
| chemistry to be more tolerant of a wider temperature range I
| think.
| wazoox wrote:
| Yes old Leafs are notorious for terrible battery management.
| The battery overheated on long, rapid trips in summer and gave
| terrible charge times, too.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| As a 7+ year driver of a pure electric BMW i3, not the range
| extender version, in a HOT climate its last four years, far more
| overlooked is the degeneration of battery capacity when run and
| charged in heat.
|
| I mean 40+ Celsius summers have been brutal on the battery which
| is a cooled pack. Possibly this has improved a ton since our i3
| was the original model year, and BMW replaced the original pack
| and sent it back to Germany for analysis, consistent with the i3
| being an experiment by design.
|
| It's made me curious if this is purposefully overlooked by the EV
| bandwagon.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| The nissan leaf demonstrated this problem in Phoenix
| immediately upon release, it is a known thing. Tesla seems to
| take yhe cooling loop very seriously. The batteries in the
| early model s had some issues but after that they seem to
| asymptote at 20% range loss and stay there. At least so far. I
| don't know who else takes cooling that seriously. I'd look for
| liquid cooling but also phase change hooked into the ac system,
| as liquid and a radiator only gets you down to ambient, which
| is too hot in an increasingly large number of locations much of
| the year.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Yep, our i3 battery is cooled as a pack, but degraded fast
| north of Phoenix (higher altitude, still hot as hell for 4
| months, super nice for 8 months including freezing and
| occasional snow). Turned out the cooling system for the
| original pack broke, but it was unclear if that happened in
| Arizona or was a one-off quirk, so the degradation of the
| original pack happened for sure in Arizona.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| The original LEAF was also susceptible to heat degredation as
| it was purely air cooling the pack. People who lived in places
| like Arizona had issues.
| davedx wrote:
| Yup my wife just almost got stranded in her Mach-e. Fantastic car
| but cold weather battery is noticeably worse than our Model 3's.
| Something to keep in mind.
| servercobra wrote:
| Ford's decision to forgo a heat pump is a real head scratcher.
| Sad the Lightning didn't make the page, because I'm very
| interested how much it affects it.
| clysm wrote:
| My 2019 Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump either.
| dymk wrote:
| Yeah, but it's 2022 now, and the Model 3 has a heat pump.
| It is a head-scratcher why Ford didn't put one in their
| 2022 flagship EV.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| And this is only comparing 70 degrees to 32. Whereas normal temps
| in many northern states (not to mention Canada) are going to be
| closer to 0. Not to mention lows that dip way below 0. What is an
| EV's range at -15?
|
| It's hard to imagine EVs fulfilling more than a niche for many.
| EVs probably look reasonably to people with money in urban areas
| but that's a minority of people.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I can't decide on my next car
|
| - Live in cold village on US east coast
|
| - ICE might be going obsolete
|
| - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded
| soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones.
|
| - Gas prices are very high
|
| - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high
|
| - There's not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being
| driven in my area leading to long waits.
|
| - I could charge at home, but don't have a garage
|
| - My car now is 8 years old but has 150k miles.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Your current car is only a few years old and has relatively low
| mileage, so the best course of action is obviously to keep
| driving it. Unless there's something seriously wrong with it.
| Otherwise, buy a used car.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| It's a Volkswagen not a Toyota and many parts have design
| lifetimes of 150-200k. Since it's the only car for my wife
| and I, I don't want to end up in a situation where it's in
| the shop all the time. I do plan on hanging on to it after
| getting another car.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| My VW has well over half a million kilometres. Of course I
| did just have to change the cylinder head gasket, but
| that's because it's tuned and unknownbenownst to me had
| sticky turbo vanes for years, causing it to overboost
| significantly. Unmodified engines of this type (diesel TDI)
| often reach 700 thousand km with only normal maintenance.
|
| But if it's your only car and you're not mechanically-
| inclined I get always wanting to have a brand new car for
| the reliability.
| pornel wrote:
| You'll be fine if you're able to keep the car connected to a
| charger overnight. Many EVs have an option to pre-heat the
| battery while on the mains power, so you don't lose the range
| on heating the battery up.
|
| Get a BEV with a heat pump. This improves winter efficiency.
| eastendguy wrote:
| > I could charge at home, but don't have a garage
|
| No problem (why should it?)
|
| > BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded
| soon
|
| That WAS my concern, but EV resale value is amazingly stable,
| better than most ICE in my area (EU). After all, EVs are still
| cars, so innovation cycles are long (many years).
| ok123456 wrote:
| The ICE will not be "going obsolete." There's no real
| replacement and there won't be just because of the underlying
| physics.
|
| There are too may drawbacks with EVs that they'll never be for
| everyone and everywhere.
|
| If your 150k mile car is a reliable brand (i.e., Honda or
| Toyota), you probably have another 150k miles on it.
| speedgoose wrote:
| They are already obsolete for most usages in Norway.
| za3faran wrote:
| What percentage of cars on the road are EV in Norway?
| Symbiote wrote:
| > according to Statistics Norway, in 2021 almost 6,000
| million kilometres driven by passenger cars were powered
| by electricity. The total number of kilometres driven by
| passenger cars was 35,000 million, so EVs still account
| for less than 20%.
|
| (I just stuck your comment into Google.)
| afterburner wrote:
| You could easily keep your car (it's not super old), and wait
| out the low-supply EV car market while you're at it.
| falcolas wrote:
| FWIW, my own investigations into this from a location that is
| currently 0:
|
| I'm going with a plug-in hybrid.
|
| There are precious few charging stations in the Midwest
| (especially those affiliated with the Subaru/Toyota brands),
| and a lot of miles between cities. A majority of my driving is
| inside the 45 mile range so the batteries, and the ability to
| fill up conventionally eases my worries about detours or
| delays.
|
| Hopefully when this new vehicle dies, the charging (and cold
| weather) story will have improved.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| My fuel economy drops about 20% on my petrol car in cold weather
| city driving. I don't know what causes the difference, perhaps
| waiting for the car to warm up and windows to defrost.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Cold air is denser and takes more work to push through.
| Arech wrote:
| Warming up the whole car (including grease in wheel hub
| bearings, for example, that becomes much harder in cold) takes
| a lot of energy, so perhaps it is it. I'd say that a fully
| warmed car though should be a bit more efficient due to a
| bigger temperature difference and a bigger oxygen amount going
| into cylinders.
| lazide wrote:
| People drive differently in really cold weather - they tend
| to idle the vehicle more (and spend time in it while idling
| more), drive slower, and on mushier surfaces
| (snow/slush/ice), etc. and that is without figuring
| mechanical stuff like thicker oil.
|
| If someone isn't driving highway distances all the time,
| 'warm up' is quite inefficient for ICE vehicles, and tends to
| run very rich.
|
| Totally right that if those factors aren't there, it _should_
| get better fuel economy.
| [deleted]
| St-Clock wrote:
| Winter tire (if you have them) and heating are the likely
| culprits!
| Hamuko wrote:
| Heating shouldn't take any fuel efficiency in a petrol-
| powered car since the heat is (usually) just a by-product of
| the engine's inefficiencies.
| kube-system wrote:
| Letting the vehicle idle in the driveway while the
| windshield defrosts will decrease fuel mileage, because the
| engine runs for longer.
| Hamuko wrote:
| It's not really the fault of "heating" that you're idling
| your car unnecessarily. I'm definitely not idling my car
| to defrost my windshield, as I'll most likely pre-heat my
| car, or if I don't, I'll scrape the frost off.
| kube-system wrote:
| I feel like we're losing context here. My comment wasn't
| in reference to what I do, or what you do. It was in
| reference to what the root comment said they did.
|
| The person in the root comment proposed that their
| practice of letting their ICE car warm up to defrost in
| the winter may lead to decreased gas mileage. This is
| correct; it will.
| cpsns wrote:
| Heating would have no real impact, ICE cars are heated using
| the heat their engines naturally produce.
|
| Winter tyres though and winter fuel mixes? Those definitely
| have an effect.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| EVs upsides and downsides should be considered without it
| needing to be a comparison to ICE. But, yes, running the heater
| will use fuel.
|
| In this case EVs with "250 miles" range are losing 30%~ of that
| range for three months of the year and a further 20% over the
| first three years of their life, making them reliably closer to
| a 140-mile vehicle. People who are planning round-trip travel
| or commuting need to know this information, and unfortunately a
| lot of EV fans like to mock people for wanting high initial EV
| range as if winter and or capacity loss aren't real (even with
| the facts being readily available).
|
| The Bolt is currently the best budget EV by far, but people
| buying it should consider it a 150-mile range vehicle with
| "bonus" miles above that.
| karmelapple wrote:
| Is it mocking, or just encouraging realistic expectations
| around your travel needs? I've heard many people say an EV
| won't work for them, yet their total daily commute is nowhere
| close to the capacity. And for many of them, even a 110V
| outlet at home would get them around 40 miles overnight once
| they're home (depending on the make/model specifics), and
| most folks I know are barely driving more than that as a
| daily driver.
|
| I totally understand wanting to have long distance range in
| an EV. But even with the cold, for most commutes, anything
| with that 150-mile-in-winter is range for the majority of
| trips.
|
| But totally understood it's a case by case basis. I have
| family who drove over 100 miles round trip for their daily
| commute in North Dakota. Those use cases exist, but I think
| many people without such extreme daily distances are thinking
| about their daily distance needs in unrealistic ways. I hope
| this isn't what you'd consider mocking :)
| neon_electro wrote:
| Please stop assuming that an EV battery is guaranteed to lose
| 20% of its range in the first three calendar years of
| operation.
|
| I drove a Chevy Bolt for 4 years, 48k miles, and I never
| noticed any range degradation, most likely thanks to the
| strong liquid cooling system for the battery and the
| inability to fast charge the Bolt faster than 1C (50-55kW
| fastest charging speed, 60-66kWh size battery means .75-88C)
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_charger#C-rate)
|
| Some cars absolutely will degrade like you describe, but that
| is not a guaranteed outcome for every EV, given the
| differences in fast charging capabilities and battery cooling
| capabilities.
|
| I did not get my 238 miles EPA range on the Bolt in the
| winter, but I could easily get 200+ if I needed to squeeze
| out more range. I generally got closer to 150 miles not
| because I was forced to, but because my driving style and
| heating usage did not generally result in the highest
| efficiency.
| jmclnx wrote:
| > for three months
|
| Many places in the US, it is more than 3 months :)
| lazide wrote:
| In northern Michigan, it was more like 3 months of _not_
| bad weather, hah.
| pandaman wrote:
| > But, yes, running the heater will use fuel
|
| I imagine it is so on some air-cooled cars (VW "Beetle", old
| 911 etc), but on most cars the cabin is heated off the
| engine's cooling system and does not require additional fuel,
| so it technically will "use fuel" but no more than the normal
| operation of the car.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| In addition to the points made by others, winter gasoline
| blends lower fuel economy
| godsfshrmn wrote:
| Mostly this because you can easily tell when the switch
| occurs on your mpg gauge, but also increased friction from
| higher viscosity of lubricants, denser air and subsequent
| drag increase, increased tire rolling resistance etc
| jeffbee wrote:
| Same and I don't even get cold weather here on the Pacific
| coast, just high 30s at worst. The engine on my hybrid runs a
| lot more in colder weather trying to heat itself and the cabin,
| even with the cabin thermostat set to 65. For short trips
| around town I get MPGs in the teens while in the summer I would
| normally expect 50+ MPG.
| segmondy wrote:
| What's crazy is how bad the Detroit made cars Bolt & Mustang are
| and it get's really cold in Detroit.
| sitkack wrote:
| It is too bad they don't have the estimated reduction next to the
| actual, then we could reason about a transfer function between
| estimated and actual. As it is, when they have an actual reading,
| they don't include the estimate on the chart. We have no idea how
| closely they correlate.
| mikeytown2 wrote:
| LiFeYPO4 - lithium yttrium has an incredible temperature range of
| -45degC to 85degC. Slightly less energy dense than LiFePO4 and
| has more cycles (5000+). Winston Is one manufacturer that I know
| of.
| yason wrote:
| Rule of thumb: divide the official range by half when driving in
| winter conditions because of a) takes a long time for the battery
| to heat up b) higher friction in colder temps c) cabin and window
| heating eat up 20-25% of the capacity.
| totalview wrote:
| The data in their nicely colored graph is wildly inaccurate. I
| have a long range Tesla model 3 (in Alaska) and the range is over
| 290 miles (it says 310 miles when full, but doesn't quite get
| that, even in the summer). This is information you can trivially
| look up...
|
| I know Tesla gets a lot of flak, but it's batteries outperform
| most of the other cars that are listed.
| casion wrote:
| I've never seen that happen. I have seen it give optimistic
| numbers, which are dozens of miles short of GPS trip logs, and
| worse in moderate cold.
|
| When you say "this is information you can trivially look up",
| not only does this article reference their own testing, but
| others, and a quick google shows these results aren't abnormal.
| This article is on the extreme end of test results, but it is
| not unreasonably so.
|
| Tesla does get a lot of flak, and unsubstantiated fanboyism
| like this does not help.
|
| https://www.naf.no/elbil/aktuelt/elbiltest/ev-winter-range-t...
|
| https://insideevs.com/news/498554/tesla-model-3-range-extrem...
|
| https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30209598/2019-tesla-mo...
|
| https://www.whatcar.com/news/range-test-how-far-can-electric...
|
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/Long-term-Model-3-testing-reve...
|
| https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/testing-teslas-range-anxiet...
|
| Notably: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/disappointing-
| range-...
|
| etc...
| streblo wrote:
| I've had the opposite experience. I live somewhere less cold
| than you and with my Model 3 I get -35% range when it's below
| 40 degrees F.
| rconti wrote:
| To clarify, yeah, the yellow "70f" bars are just completely
| wrong, at least from the Teslas I'm familiar with.
|
| It claims a Long Range Model 3 like we have (310mi range) gets
| 215 miles, a 100kWh Model S about the same, and a 75kWh Model X
| barely over 150.
|
| They don't list the methodology for the yellow bar, but since
| it's not experimental (they're comparing estimated and actual
| winter range with the dotted blue vs solid blue bars),
| presumably the yellow should be rated range, not tested range.
|
| EDIT: Oh, now I see. If you scroll down to the car, they are,
| in fact, testing real world range at all temps. Claiming a long
| range model 3 gets 60% of its rated range at 70f is a bit mind-
| boggling, though. Ours has over 70,000 miles on it and while a
| full charge is now rated at more like 290mi, you'll certainly
| get over 200, even at 80mph.
| SQueeeeeL wrote:
| Sounds like a lot of variance in experience, even in this
| thread. But if your car isn't breaking down, sounds like you
| should keep using it! But also be aware of inherent differences
| in battery performance in cold weather when recommending EVs to
| other Alaskans
| isoprophlex wrote:
| We have a tiny electric fiat 500 for small distance trips. 21
| kWh battery. My wife routinely gets 7 km/kWh out of it, I
| struggle to reach above 5.5 km/kWh.
|
| Driving style really matters. Especially with such a small
| battery ;)
| jacquesm wrote:
| The Germans would say that you have a heavy foot.
| jackmott wrote:
| anamexis wrote:
| Are you suggesting there is nearly zero difference in battery
| range in cold weather? Because that seems like something you
| can trivially look up as well. Heaters use power.
|
| Plenty of other articles seem to back up the ~20% loss for
| Teslas, such as: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/how-much-
| worse-is-a-tesla-...
|
| One interesting thing that points out is that internal
| combustion engines are also about 15% less efficient at cold
| temperatures.
| xyzzyz wrote:
| > One interesting thing that points out is that internal
| combustion engines are also about 15% less efficient at cold
| temperatures.
|
| They are less efficient at cold _engine_ temperatures, but
| _more_ efficient at cold _air_ temperatures. This means that
| in cold winter, once the engine warms up (which might not
| take place on short routes), internal combustion engines are
| _more_ efficient than in summer.
| anamexis wrote:
| That may well be, but it seems like the 15% is a high-level
| number that takes a lot of factors into account, such as
| power used by heating accessories, and the fact that cold
| air is denser (more air resistance).
|
| https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml
|
| My original wording was inaccurate, as it's more about ICE-
| powered vehicles than the engines themselves.
| xyzzyz wrote:
| That sounds reasonable: note that I said that on short
| routes the engine might not have a chance to warm up.
|
| Your source, however, quoted this 15% figure for _city_
| driving, I think that's worth stressing as well. I wonder
| if they have any data for highway driving. I'm too lazy
| to Google, though.
| abalone wrote:
| I remember when Elon Musk slandered a journalist who reported on
| this in 2013, back before people generally knew it was a
| thing.[1][2]
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/feb/14/tesla-
| pos...
|
| [2]
| https://archive.nytimes.com/wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02...
| colordrops wrote:
| What are you talking about? These articles have nothing to do
| with the topic.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Not just Elon, but also the Muskovites who ape him.
|
| In Tesla's early days, I asked on HN and another online forum
| if cold weather affected range, and was soundly mocked for even
| asking the question.
|
| It made sense to me. Heater uses electricity. Moving uses
| electricity. Using heater means less electricity for moving.
| But, no. I was entirely wrong because Musk has discovered the
| magic combination of pixie dust and unicorn farts that negate
| cold, or heat, as a factor.
| steelframe wrote:
| I noticed that the estimated cold weather range drop in the
| article for the Jaguar I-PACE is only 3%, for their definition of
| "cold weather." I think that's about right. I've been driving one
| for about 3 years now.
|
| Its rapid charge curve isn't winning any accolades, and its range
| given the battery size doesn't compare well against most other
| EVs on the market today. I've got winter tires during the cold
| season, so that ostensibly drags on efficiency, along with all
| the other reasons the article lists. The I-PACE comes equipped
| with a heat pump.
|
| What I will say about the I-PACE is that I find it amazingly
| consistent when it comes to battery consumption. There's a
| 150-mile trip with 9,000 feet of elevation gain that I regularly
| do through the Cascade mountain range year round. The speed limit
| for much of the trip is 70mph, but in keeping with the flow of
| traffic I often go a little faster than that.
|
| I never have to worry about running out of charge on that trip.
| During the summer I'll often arrive with about a quarter of the
| pack remaining. During the winter, if it's below freezing and
| there's snow/sleet/ice, I can get down to a little over one-
| eighth state of charge, depending on how aggressive I am on the
| throttle. I never experience so-called "range anxiety" and am
| never surprised by a sudden drop in estimated remaining range.
|
| Furthermore in the 3 years I've owned it, I haven't gotten a
| reduction in maximum range at all. This is my 4th EV, and I know
| how lithium ion battery packs degrade over time. The fact that
| I've gotten no range reduction tells me that Jaguar must have
| chosen to reserve a significant fraction of the pack capacity as
| buffer, which might help explain why the range given the pack
| size is less than other EV manufacturers when the car is new. I
| wonder what the range of your typical 5-year-old I-PACE is when
| compared to, say, a typical 5-year-old Audi e-tron.
| plebianRube wrote:
| I make sure the displayed range on the M3 is double for the
| distance I want to travel.
|
| Winter tires, snow and ice sticking to the car, and -15C are
| quite normal occurrences here, and range display is pretty
| consistently half of what to expect.
| rconti wrote:
| Does the nav system do a good job of compensating? The "normal"
| display on the 3 is based on the EPA rating and is always
| wrong, but when I navigate, I find the trip range thing to be
| quite accurate -- even factoring in upcoming hills and traffic.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| Yes, but you need to use the "energy" app and have nav
| destination set. The little mi number next to the battery is
| "miles of ideal range", so flat 65mph 70 degrees etc.
|
| The energy app shows you live estimates based on distance,
| elevation, wind speed, temperature, humidity, tire pressure,
| cabin climate load, and even your phone charger.
| plebianRube wrote:
| The energy app is pretty good, it fits pretty well with my
| double policy but I don't look at it anymore, since it
| requires diverting my attention moreso than glancing ant
| the estimate, and additional tapping to bring it up.
|
| As a rule of thumb I halve the EPA estimate in winter and
| 2/3-3/4 it in summer.
|
| I have had no range issues doing this for the 130000km + I
| have owned the vehicle.
|
| Edit: If I'm going to tap, I check the Wh/km, as that is
| what I'm used to. It was better before they removed it from
| the swipe, but hey, we gotta fill those sprints somehow.
| plebianRube wrote:
| It may be better, but I generally look at my current Wh/km
| usage for an estimate of my remaining range.
|
| Average over 130000km (3y) is 191Wh/km
|
| Winter can be as bad as 330Wh/km (-30C 110km/h)
|
| Summer can be good, but I've never seen a 100km trip better
| than 145Wh/km.
|
| Generally the lower the remaining range, the better the EPA
| range (estimate) is.
| darknavi wrote:
| Worth noting that the range estimates in the navigation has
| been updated in the last ~6 months to be much more accurate
| and shockingly close to ABRP[0]. Previously I'd use ABRP to
| estimate battery usage (and I still do for planning road
| trips) but I can now trust Tesla's estimates reasonably in
| the car.
|
| 0: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
| saltcured wrote:
| Forget driving range... how do EVs cope with long term parking,
| and how much does the winter affect that? I have become acutely
| aware that some car designers have not really considered "must
| work after parking" as a feature of a car. I had not thought much
| about it, but some ICE or HEV cars cannot maintain their basic
| (non-traction) battery unless driven several times per week at
| minimum.
|
| I had not thought about this much before the pandemic disrupted
| prior commute and travel patterns. But now, I think it is absurd
| that a parked car can ruin a perfectly good battery in a matter
| of weeks and maroon the occasional motorist. I can't understand
| how a marketplace allowed these designs to prosper. You shouldn't
| need to put a wrench to the battery terminals to park a car.
| lazide wrote:
| They definitely handle it a lot better than ICE cars!
|
| ICE cars, more than a week or two with any frequency is
| tempting fate.
| darknavi wrote:
| Not sure about others but I parked our Tesla Model Y at the
| airport for ~18 days this spring and came back with only a few
| percent of the battery missing.
|
| This might be abnormal for Tesla owners though because many
| leave the dash cam/Sentry mode on which drains something like
| 7% a day.
| whoisthemachine wrote:
| Interesting data, but for the Model 3, I think an important piece
| is missing: model year. Around 2021 they switched out the
| resistive cabin heating for heat pump heating, which had a
| positive impact on cold weather range. Anecdotally speaking, my
| 2020 Model 3 gets between a 30-40% range hit in the winter.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| This article is about battery capacity loss due to cold weather
| (either directly or due to use of battery-heaters). Cabin
| heating is over and above the loss discussed here.
| tedd4u wrote:
| The article explicitly compares real-world data as
| experienced during on-road usage, showing how EVs with more
| efficient cabin heating (heat pump e.g.) lose less range in
| the cold.
| mannykannot wrote:
| This is explicitly a study of real-world driving experiences,
| so, unless people generally drive through winter without
| cabin heating, then to exclude its effects, their use of it
| must be controlled for, and I see no evidence that they have
| done so. In fact, this paragraph about the BMW i3 suggests
| that they are lumping together cars having different cabin
| heating methods and options, if they are the same make and
| model:
|
| _This little BMW clearly experiences some winter range loss
| in cold temperatures. But keep in mind that many i3 models
| include a heat pump in the US and some feature a gasoline
| range extender (called REx). Both of those help to preserve
| range in cold temperature._
| pifm_guy wrote:
| At some point, it will be worth fitting a car out with double
| glazed windows to reduce heat loss/gain through the windows.
|
| That should give reduce the energy used for cabin heating,
| reducing range loss, perhaps by half for longer journeys.
| falcolas wrote:
| Any gains to winter range would likely be lost to the added
| weight year round.
| pifm_guy wrote:
| True, although with double glazing you can probably make the
| HVAC unit smaller, saving weight there too.
|
| And you might not need air vents to defog the screen either -
| a well insulated window won't get condensation on it to start
| with.
|
| And double glazing typically needn't be much thicker than
| single glazing - as long as the air gap between the panels is
| sealed, then the air itself gives the whole window dynamic
| rigidity. That's why you sometimes see a thief throw a brick
| at a double glazed window and it doesn't break.
| kube-system wrote:
| Some cars already have this, for sound isolation... including
| the model 3 and model S. I've had some cars in the past with
| this feature as well. It is relatively common.
| donatj wrote:
| As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I'd be very
| interested to know about -40degF performance. We get a couple of
| those days every year. I have been looking at my next car
| potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| You'll be fine if you pick a quality EV that does proper
| battery temperature maintenance. I've been driving a Volt here
| in Ontario for years no issues. GM & Tesla have put proper
| engineering into this. Nissan has notoriously cut costs on
| battery cooling/heating in ways that have led to shortened
| battery life.
|
| Others, your mileage may vary (literally)
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Is there a comparison somewhere of the cooling used by
| different EVs and PHEVs? I know tesla does it right but there
| is rarely enough information provided by manufacturers to
| tell if they can take the pack temp below ambient or not. It
| is by far my largest concern in selecting my next vehicle. I
| want to wait for the cyber truck, but I am vonsidering the
| pacifica PHEV
| castratikron wrote:
| A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases
| should count as zero mile range
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| Those can be warmed up with a gasoline blowtorch. Or you can
| fit your car with an alarm system that auto starts the engine
| throughout the night to keep it warm. That's what pretty much
| everyone is doing where I'm from (-25degC is a pretty typical
| winter temperature here, with drops down to -40-45degC for a
| couple weeks each winter).
|
| After that you get tolerable gas mileage. I don't drive much,
| but from my friends' description it sounds like you get
| around 30-40% more gas usage compared to warmer months.
| metadat wrote:
| What is a gasoline torch? Would blowtorching a vehicle be
| detrimental and destructive to it?
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| Yeah, I probably should have looked in the dictionary
| before posting that.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch
|
| It's pretty dangerous, burns down quite a few cars each
| year, but people don't care or have no other options. I
| think during the last couple of years there were two
| fires near my house alone.
| metadat wrote:
| Do people run the open-flame torch it in the room where
| the vehicle is (to hear the air)? What about a plug-in
| solution such as a space heater?
| [deleted]
| anthomtb wrote:
| I thought electric block heaters were common in cold
| climates. Is the blow torch a last resort if you cannot
| park your car in range of an outlet?
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| Maybe in Norway or Canada or other 'rich' countries.
|
| Most people have no place to park their cars, they just
| leave them wherever in the open (since most live in
| apartments and there are few garages available).
|
| Those who have enough money to afford an alarm system and
| pay the increased gasoline bill (because it adds about an
| hour of idling your engine each day) rarely revert to
| such measures, but many do. I see them every morning when
| temperature drops below -30degC or so.
| aaronax wrote:
| They seem much less common than they used to be. More
| people have garages, and modern vehicles will easily
| start down to - 15F maybe.
|
| I would much rather have a battery jump pack since a weak
| battery is the most likely problem. Though those are weak
| in the cold too...
| mkhpalm wrote:
| To be fair, it typically costs about $50 for a block heater
| which allows you to start below 40 degrees in an ICE.
|
| Whats the solution for EV?
| noahtallen wrote:
| I believe they "just work." Electric motors don't stop
| working at low temps. I think it's mostly just range that's
| impacted since EVs can't use the inefficient part of an ICE
| (e.g. energy produced by gas not captured by the
| powertrain) for heat, so they have to run heat pumps.
| (Along with battery chemistry not working as well in low
| temps)
| mkhpalm wrote:
| Depending on the EV you you void the battery warranty
| keeping it in extreme temperatures like 40 below. And it
| affects the range.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Anyone who is trying to start an ICE at -40 (C or F, they are
| the same at that temp), will have it plugged in with a block
| heater. Or if in Russia they'll have an insulated jacket for
| the car.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Heating block
| LinuxBender wrote:
| My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan
| heater, a battery maintainer _1.5 amps_ , 2 heat-lamps above
| the engine and fuel additives _heat, seafoam_ that keep it
| running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds
| and they discovered my heat lamps.
| pengaru wrote:
| > My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil
| pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps
| above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep
| it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local
| birds and they discovered my heat lamps.
|
| The _only_ downside? The entire comment constitutes a list
| of down sides...
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Perhaps. Not for me really. I would be using seafoam
| anyway as the heads on my engine have a manufacturer
| defect that causes sludge so I have to change the oil
| often. I use seafoam in both the fuel and oil.
| Electricity here is 11 cents per KwH so I am ok with the
| heating devices as that is significantly less power than
| an EV even if I factor in fuel costs. Once I finish my
| solar setup the power becomes moot.
|
| The only thing that bothers me is that when I lift the
| hood to remove the heat lamps, a bird may fly out and
| when they go from 80F to -10F they can go into shock.
| They stand next to me for a minute or two and then fly
| away probably out of sheer boredom of listening to me.
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Every modern gasoline vehicle should be fine at those temps
| even without a block heater. It's just a question of can your
| 12v battery deliver enough power to start it, but that's a
| problem you can solve in 30min if you encounter it (bring
| your battery inside).
| laptop-man wrote:
| cold batts always get worse range got to plug it in and have
| a batt warmer (like Tesla).
|
| not such a foreign idea when you have to do that for Diesel
| to get them to start in the cold.
| jmclnx wrote:
| I would not buy an EV where you are. Also I wonder how fast it
| will charge when it is very cold outside. I heard Toyota has
| some kind of hydrogen car, maybe that would be better ?
|
| I live in the north and I will not by an EV until the range
| reaches Gas Autos when the Temp is below 0F with the heat
| blasting. Getting caught in the cold without fuel is not good.
| And I wonder if Wind Chill can decrease range even more.
|
| I fully believe all EVs are tested and developed for the
| Southwest US, ignoring real conditions many people encounter.
| coredog64 wrote:
| Ford and GM have proving grounds in Michigan and Arizona.
| Nissan failed to test the Leaf in desert conditions and it
| led them to not include battery cooling, something that ate
| batteries and IIRC, was also the subject of a class action
| suit.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Plenty of people own EVs in extreme cold and get by just
| fine. Look at Norway, EVs are incredibly common there and
| they're regularly driven to the far north without much
| fanfare. https://www.youtube.com/@bjornnyland/videos
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Populated Norway actually isn't that cold. The average
| high/low for their coldest month is 0C/-5C. In contrast
| Seattle is 8C/2C. I'm curious how EVs are doing in a city
| like Harbin where it is -24C/-13C.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The city in the quote above is Oslo. Somehow I omitted
| that from my comment.
| dawnerd wrote:
| That's why I linked to Bjorn's channel. He regularly
| tests extreme cold on EVs (and even camps in them)
| boplicity wrote:
| It maybe worth calculating the cost of adding some insulation
| and very limited heating to your detached garage; this could be
| a factor, in terms of the overall cost of vehicle ownership.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| I think that's excessive and even wasteful. He can use a
| heating block.
| lazide wrote:
| There is a lot of utility in a (moderately) heated garage.
| Nothing crazy, just up to a little above freezing.
|
| For one, it really helps in breaking up packed in snow/ice
| in the wheel wells overnight, which used to be a big hassle
| for me.
| kkfx wrote:
| A small note about "keep the EV plugged", I do not know, since
| it's LARGELY NOT DOCUMENTED, as usual, but my MG ZS EV actually
| "keep the battery warm", consuming around 900W. Oh, sure it's not
| that much, but for 24H that means 21.6kWh, witch might be around
| 5+EUR/day in various EU countries. Sure it's really not much, but
| it's a thing to consider.
|
| The other note is for ALL fellows IT guys, no matter their role,
| in automotive (and any other sector): please DO TELL the value of
| full disclosure. Do teach anyone that documenting things is
| useful and even in the process of doing it design errors came up
| before transmuting in horrors.
|
| Actual mean software in cars is crapware, documenting it do dot
| make it less crappy ALONE, but still help because people might
| read and compare and marking might start being warred about the
| disclosure of crappy designs...
| InTheArena wrote:
| I made the change to a Model Y because of the heat pump for
| better cold water behavior. so far so good.
| neals wrote:
| As an operator of 10 fast charging locations in Europe, I can
| confirm that winter business is booming.
| gytisgreitai wrote:
| Citroen ec4 (with heatpump) WLTP: 350km ev-database: 260km Short
| city distances (5-10km) in summer: 310km Short city distnces
| (5-10km) at -4 Celcius: 100km
|
| wltp is a joke. Guessometer is a joke. Range with ev in winter is
| a joke.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I find it strange that the charts only go down to 20degF, when
| for example at the moment I write this comment, it's -5degF
| (-21degC) in Bismarck, North Dakota.
|
| And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the
| winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal"
| driving conditions extend way below just 20degF.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Agreed, I'm in MN and it's 5F. Starting next Wednesday, we have
| a forecast for 5 days in a row where the highest temp is 4F.
| dwighttk wrote:
| Maybe there aren't many people driving EVs there
| rconti wrote:
| Well they're quite common in nordic countries; of course, the
| population of nordic countries tends to be in the southern
| latitudes.
| mason55 wrote:
| Average January low in Oslo is 22 F. In Fargo, ND it's 0 F.
| Oslo is at 59 degrees north latitude, Fargo is at 46
| degrees north (south of both Paris and Munich)
| duxup wrote:
| Also I think being near the ocean helps with temperature.
| whoisthemachine wrote:
| While they aren't as popular in the Dakota's, there's quite a
| few EV's in Minnesota, where the temperature ranges are
| similar (1 degree Fahrenheit at the moment).
| dwighttk wrote:
| > It includes aggregated and anonymized data from 7,000
| vehicles in the Recurrent community from across the United
| States as well as tens of thousands of data points from on-
| board devices that provide data on energy usage.
|
| Maybe some more Northerners should join Recurrent?
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I'm in the Rockies, about 6300' elevation and the temp in the
| winter is often sub-zero with extremes being around -25F but
| only a few days usually. None of the locals have an EV but I
| have seen them on the highway going up to Yellowstone so I
| have not been able to ask them about range.
|
| The UPS drivers here will soon have a couple EV delivery
| trucks. I talk to them all the time so perhaps that will be
| useful data I can relay. It won't be graphs, just happy or
| grumpy driver anecdotes. I hope they give the drivers good
| heaters.
| FartyMcFarter wrote:
| If that's the case, it might be even more important to show
| this data so that people there can decide whether to start
| getting EVs.
| Philip-J-Fry wrote:
| I assume it's because temperatures like that during the day
| (when most car travel takes place) is less common than at
| night. It's more representative of the general use case.
| mjevans wrote:
| The charts should _all_ have the same range and scale so that
| they can be visually compared. As it stands they appear
| optimized for maximizing the data acuity of each individual car
| without consideration for visually comparing curves between
| cars.
| orasis wrote:
| Two winters ago I tried to drive my model 3 across North Dakota
| - never will I do that again. Range was cut in half and I had
| to stop at every single supercharger.
| j33zusjuice wrote:
| I don't understand it either. Lows well under 20degF are fairly
| common in the US. The _average_ temperature in the winter is in
| the mid-20s where I currently live.
| mrits wrote:
| We are sub 20F next week in Austin,Tx. I'm going to IL for
| the holidays where it looks like will be -7F for Christmas.
| [deleted]
| thinking4real wrote:
| Everyone's repeating they find this strange. Is it really
| strange?
|
| I've been excited for EVs all my life. But there's a certain
| level of propaganda that's come with them.
|
| Explicitly talking about their downsides seems to be taboo.
| Like you'll get downvoated or banned on many social media
| platforms for doing it.
| PaulBGD_ wrote:
| I think it's because most people who are pro electric
| understand their downsides, and usually the downsides are
| presented as dismissal (eg why buy an electric, you have to
| stop when you're traveling cross country.) It's kind of a
| boring topic unless there's something new to discuss.
| [deleted]
| criley2 wrote:
| Quite the opposite, I find every thread about them (including
| this one) to be entire dominated by the naysayers who claim
| they are repressed but in actuality are the loudest and most
| visible voices.
|
| It's a bit ironic you claim "propaganda" and "downvotes"....
| in the most upvoted, top thread on this post, a thread which
| is highly skeptical/negative to EV.
|
| These days I find it difficult to find real-world data or
| anecdotes from EV real owners amongst the tidal wave of
| gasoline vehicle operators predicting how terrible an EV
| would be (and justifying their ego/decision to not buy one).
| Sakos wrote:
| I figure 20F is just sufficient to prove their thesis (effects
| of cold on EV cars). I don't think it purports to be an all-
| encompassing study, especially since there are variables like
| cabin heating which can have significant effects on range in
| lower temperatures.
| Grim-444 wrote:
| At even colder temps than that EV batteries start having even
| more problems, for example they become permanently damaged if
| charged at freezing temps or below, so even more energy has
| to be used to heat the batteries for the batteries to be able
| to accept a charge.
| Reason077 wrote:
| Easily mitigated by good charging practices (eg: charge
| when you finish a drive and the car/battery is still warm,
| not after leaving it in the cold overnight)
| saltcured wrote:
| Wouldn't that also mean it has to be heated before
| driving, or regenerative braking is also off the table?
| karmelapple wrote:
| Agreed, and that's as someone who grew up in North Dakota and
| now lives in the milder northeast US, near the ocean.
|
| 'd also be interested in seeing it colder for trips back to
| ND, sure. But the majority of folks in the US live in places
| where it isn't as brutal as a North Dakotan winter, so doing
| a study at 20 F seems reasonable to me.
| mdorazio wrote:
| The majority of Americans do not live in areas that get below
| 20F average for extended periods of time. Your particular use
| case is atypical, especially for EV buyers, so it isn't shown.
| chmod775 wrote:
| > Your particular use case is atypical
|
| Norwegians alone account for ~5-10% of Tesla's global sales
| in recent years.
|
| I don't think it's far fetched to assume that _at least_ one
| tenth of all Tesla vehicles (and other EV vehicles in that
| price class) are driven in areas that _do_ routinely
| experience longer periods below that temperature. It 's
| likely much more than that, because in Europe you can easily
| find these temperatures many places far south of Norway.
| Teever wrote:
| As a Canadian I guess data from events that Americans rarely
| experience isn't really that useful or interesting.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Northern Minnesota and North Dakota are pretty cold, not to
| mention parts of Alaska.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| I'm in Fargo and one of my coworkers recently got a Model 3.
| It's going to get much colder in the coming week and I'll be
| asking him about what kind of mileage he's getting.
|
| Edit: Just looked through r/Fargo and found this thread on EVs
| here
| https://www.reddit.com/r/fargo/comments/wvdud0/evs_in_fargo/
| remarkEon wrote:
| Came here to say that (am in Minnesota for Christmas holiday,
| where it's currently 1deg). It gets much colder than 20degF for
| extended periods in the Midwest. Is there just not a large
| enough sample of EV driving in those temperatures to extend the
| graph?
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Exactly. They likely didn't have enough data, because a)it
| doesn't actually get that cold for very long, even in the
| coldest parts of the US and b)there aren't many people in
| those locations (North Dakota, grandparent comment's home
| state, has the same population as Boston, Massachusetts. Not
| the region - just the city itself) and c)there aren't many
| EVs, either - due to lack of infrastructure for them, lower
| income levels, and (drumroll please) their lower ranges.
|
| Contrary to the knee jerk reaction some people seem to be
| having, this isn't an conspiratorial attempt to pull the wool
| over the eyes of Real Americans(TM).
|
| I don't understand the reaction, anyway - ICE vehicles plunge
| in range with cold temperatures too, and there are a bunch of
| reasons why EVs seem well-suited to rural life.
|
| The range reduction doesn't mean squat when the longest
| average commute in the US - Maine - is 10 miles. Who cares if
| your 300-350 mile EV only gets 200 miles, when that's still
| 20 days of commuting, and every hour your car is in your
| garage, it's "gassing up" with no intervention on your part
| beyond a few seconds to plug in a cord when you get home?
|
| FYI, looking at a smattering of temperature charts, "much
| colder than 20 degrees for extended periods" is a slight
| exaggeration for Minnesota.
| remarkEon wrote:
| I guess I meant "extended periods" to mean "longer than two
| weeks", which is about how often I'd fill up the gas tank
| when growing up there. Average temp in January through
| March is below 20degF per Wikipedia for most of the state.
|
| Regardless, I agree there's still good use cases for EVs in
| cold climates.
| tantony wrote:
| I have owned a Model 3 in Iowa while living in an apartment
| with no garage. This was at the beginning of the Covid
| lockdown where it stayed unused for extended periods of time.
| The battery was cold-soaked in temps below 20F. Whenever I
| drove the car, I had almost zero regen-braking, reduced
| acceleration and the range was decreased by about 30%. For
| short commutes, that would persist throughout. But whenever I
| went on longer trips, a one hour drive would get it back to
| its original performance. The range would stay a bit lower
| due to higher energy use (~330 Wh/mi instead of 240 Wh/mi in
| the summer). The navigation would account for this when
| planning trips and also pre-condition the batteries prior to
| going to superchargers. On average it added maybe one extra
| charging stop during road-trips.
| [deleted]
| hunter2_ wrote:
| > almost zero regen-braking
|
| This is interesting. I wonder if large capacitors could
| alleviate this: somewhere to quickly dump the regen energy,
| and charge the battery with it at some slow rate equivalent
| to the long-term average regen load. Not only would it help
| in cold situations where the battery can't be charged
| quickly, but also situations where the battery would be
| healthier if not charged quickly, which is always.
| D13Fd wrote:
| It's probably due to lack of data. To some extent, the further
| the temp is from the mean, the harder it is to find a time and
| place to test.
| barbariangrunge wrote:
| As I'm sitting here reading this, it is -35 C after windchill.
| The reason we didn't get an ev is because we are getting the
| sense that the companies that make them do not take Canadaian
| weather into account
|
| It looks like some of those manufacturers only lose 3% of their
| range in weather like this, but that's estimated. The verified
| numbers are far lower?
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Your car doesn't feel wind chill.
|
| I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an
| issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops
| working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more
| quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still
| plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without
| wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage
| without concerns of carbon monoxide poisoning or stinking up
| the garage.
|
| Aside: I wish people in this country would stop reporting
| wind chill temps as if they're some sort of accurate measure
| of anything. They're only useful as a relatively subjective
| measure for people who aren't dressed properly.
| wolfram74 wrote:
| Might be more accurate to describe it as cars generate more
| windchill from driving than the weather station is likely
| to experience from wind?
| jcampbell1 wrote:
| Wind chill is because your body heat makes a bubble of
| warm air which the wind blows away. When you have a full
| body suit and helmet, wind chill doesn't matter.
| leereeves wrote:
| Doesn't the cold have the greatest impact when the car
| isn't moving, because the car warms itself while driving?
|
| And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't
| moving.
| wolfram74 wrote:
| In the best case scenario where the car is in a garage,
| I've heard that you can pre-emptively bring it up to
| temperature on grid power and a great deal of the cold-
| induced range loss goes away. Might still work for
| outdoor parking, just a bit less shielded of an
| environment.
| nkurz wrote:
| > And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't
| moving.
|
| It matters in the sense that a parked car in the wind
| will cool to ambient temperature faster than it would
| when the air is still, but not in the sense that it will
| ever get colder than the actual still-air temperature.
| Wind chill affects rate of cooling, but (in the absence
| of evaporation) not the actual low temperature that is
| reached. Since the concern with loss of range or or
| starting capacity usually has to do with how the
| batteries perform at at extremely low temperatures, it's
| probably closer to true to say that "it does not matter".
| hunter2_ wrote:
| > Since the concern with loss of range or or starting
| capacity usually has to do with how the batteries perform
| at at extremely low temperatures
|
| Isn't heating the cabin also a major component of the
| concern? That's where heating the cabin on grid power
| would help get some range back (assuming the battery is
| fully charged; if it's mid-charge then you're just
| shifting the grid power from charging to heating so the
| range will continue to suffer).
| ghaff wrote:
| Wind chill is mostly a number for TV weathermen to use to
| hype up cold weather. It does matter to some extent for
| people in that they may want to be careful to cover
| exposed skin and wear something windproof. But it's more
| about dressing for cold windy conditions than about an
| absolute number.
| dkqmduems wrote:
| Air velocity certainly impacts heat transfer.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Wind chill is a measure of the perception of winter
| temperatures on human skin.
|
| Certainly the car is affected by wind in cold temps. But
| that's something else that we would measure entirely
| differently.
| mikestew wrote:
| ...and therefore your argument is that the wind is
| somehow blowing on a battery that is enclosed, as are
| most EV traction batteries?
| kube-system wrote:
| The air velocity as measured relative to a parked car is
| not relevant to EV range. When the vehicle is moving the
| relative air velocity is far different than what it is
| when parked.
| notdonspaulding wrote:
| Doesn't the range of an EV drop as the heating load of
| the cabin of an EV increases?
|
| And doesn't the heating load of the cabin increase as the
| air velocity over all of its metal and glass surfaces
| increases? Isn't the shell of the car essentially a giant
| heatsink with a 70mph relative wind moving across it?
| kube-system wrote:
| Yes, yes, and yes.
|
| However the speed of air over the car while driving is
| unrelated to the airspeed that meteorologists use to
| calculate the wind chill in your local weather report
| wpietri wrote:
| > They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure
| for people who aren't dressed properly.
|
| Depends on your interpretation of "properly". Since 2001,
| the wind chill numbers for US, CA, and UK are based on a
| "bare face": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North
| _American_and_...
|
| Wanting to know how cold it's going to feel on one's face
| seems like a pretty reasonable need. At the very least, to
| know when to break out the balaclava.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _They 're only useful as a relatively subjective measure
| for people who aren't dressed properly._
|
| That's a bizarre thing to say when to dress properly, you
| need to know the wind chill.
|
| If it's 25degF out no wind, vs. 25degF out but it's 5degF
| with wind chill, that's an entire additional layer I need
| to put on during my morning walk.
|
| Wind chill is a _very_ accurate measure for judging what to
| wear. How do you think it 's not accurate? It's literally
| an equation that accounts for the fact that wind makes you
| colder. You can scientifically, objectively measure the
| faster cooling effect of wind on an object. (Granted there
| are marginal differences in its effect on a human body
| depending on one's height and weight, but that still
| doesn't make it _subjective_.)
| Epa095 wrote:
| But if you only know the windchill temperature, how do
| you dress? If it is 10f with wind chill, do you prep for
| wind or not? I want to know temperature and windspeed,
| and then I know how many layers of wool I need (from the
| temperature) and how windproof I need to dress (from the
| windspeed).
| hunter2_ wrote:
| Interesting point: if we need to know two things, one of
| them being air temperature and the other being [windspeed
| or windchill], the second thing ought to be whichever
| delivers more overall value.
|
| If you can figure out how to dress based on either one
| equally well, then it comes down to what _else_ can be
| gleaned from windspeed vs from windchill. I would tend to
| agree that windspeed is more valuable, as it 's better at
| readily telling you if an activity you're planning to do,
| which is only possible under certain windspeeds (like
| using a tent or something), will be doable.
| euroderf wrote:
| Windchill addresses the user request "Don't make me
| think". Wind speed requires actual thought.
| RoboticCloud wrote:
| Reason077 wrote:
| Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway
| (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but
| close.
|
| Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but
| they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from
| an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They
| may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in
| extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block
| heaters, etc.
| barbariangrunge wrote:
| I was under the impression that cars died in the cold due
| to the battery dying. Are evs more reliable because they
| are likely to be plugged in over night?
| lazide wrote:
| EVs are mechanically far simpler. Mechanical parts always
| have issues dealing with large temp ranges (it becomes a
| very hard engineering problem), and the simpler the
| better. It's not just oil (not needed to the extent it is
| in ICE cars), but everything.
|
| For EV's, the chemistry will have issues at low temps
| (fixed with battery warmers), and it has to use
| propulsion energy to heat the cabin, both of which will
| cause some loss of range.
|
| As long as the battery doesn't run down too low though,
| it's a decent choice if other things are engineered
| correctly.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| An EV battery is entirely different than a lead acid
| accessory battery in a combustion car.
|
| It has a whole system dedicated to maintaining its
| temperature within ideal ranges.
|
| They don't die in cold weather. I've never heard of one
| doing so.
|
| The only issue with cold weather is reduced range. So
| just make sure you buy one with a battery big enough to
| handle your _commute_ even with reduced range in cold.
| Which is pretty much all of them these days, honestly.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| Phones and laptops get worse battery performance in cold
| weather and use similar batteries to EVs.
| hunter2_ wrote:
| Those don't have "a whole system dedicated to maintaining
| its temperature within ideal ranges" although now you've
| got me wondering whether a laptop that expends some
| energy to keep its battery warm would actually last
| longer in extreme cold than an otherwise-identical laptop
| that doesn't... of course one would need to also consider
| whether the keep-warm energy is drawn while plugged in
| (which would obviously let it last longer) or not (which
| I'm not sure about).
| Reason077 wrote:
| Li-ion batteries perform better at low temperatures than
| Lead-acid. The traction battery is also a lot bigger so
| it retains heat for much longer. And in some models, the
| car's battery management software can kick in some
| heating to prevent it from getting excessively cold if
| necessary.
| Retric wrote:
| It depends on how cold you are talking about. Lead acid
| batteries run into issues, but portable jump starter is a
| cheap and easy solution for that. However, if your
| talking -40C both oil and fuel both run into problems
| with ultra low temperatures so people need to use heating
| blankets.
|
| The nice thing about EV's is you can have them warmup
| while plugged in an unheated parking space. The bad thing
| is cars are poorly insulated so at ultra low temperatures
| they need to use a lot of energy to keep warm.
| zackkitzmiller wrote:
| Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has
| for years. This isn't an EV feature.
| wil421 wrote:
| Lots of people park in garages where it's not an option.
| rosnd wrote:
| My gas powered Mercedes heats up just fine without
| starting the engine.
|
| This has been a common feature for like ... idk, 20
| years? I think even the 80s W214 had this option,
| although that used a separate burner system instead of
| batteries.
| rvba wrote:
| You are getting downvoted, while you write the truth.
|
| High end cars had that feature for years. Lower end ones
| used various block heaters / car heater boxes / webastos.
| anecdotal1 wrote:
| Audis don't come with it because it's illegal in Germany
| according to my old neighbor so he always had to install
| an aftermarket one...
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Replying to the comment below about garages. One can
| simply open the garage door, also remotely. Step 1, open
| garage door remotely, step 2, start car remotely.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| You can't do remote start in a garage. I remote start my
| Tesla in my garage all the time on super-cold days.
|
| If I did that with a gas car, I'd get carbon monoxide
| poisoning.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| A big difference is that while an EV is sitting plugged
| in, it can heat itself from wall power, rather than
| burning gas to do it.
| mellavora wrote:
| And the nice thing about wall power is that it generates
| itself thanks to the magic elves.
| t-writescode wrote:
| Or water or nuclear or wind or solar.
|
| Not everything is burning dinosaurs.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| And another difference is that I can preheat my EV while
| it's inside the garage. While I'd never warm my gas
| engine car inside the garage, not even with the garage
| door open.
| nightski wrote:
| It's called a block heater and they have been in use for
| many decades in cold climates.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| Block heaters don't heat the cab, so it's still
| uncomfortable
| [deleted]
| nightski wrote:
| I wasn't claiming that they did. The block heater keeps
| the engine warm to allow for easy remote start.
| enduser wrote:
| An EV can do both, without emissions, from wall power.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Not directly, but the warm water in the block will mean
| that at least some heat is immediately available once you
| start the car. The main benefit of block heaters is not
| in heating the cab, but heating the engine itself so that
| it's actually possible to start it.
|
| That aside, never understood the value of "pre heating"
| the car interior. If it's that cold, you're wearing a
| coat and gloves (or should be). Start the car, drive off,
| and you'll have heat within a few minutes.
| bagels wrote:
| The value is not having to wear all that gear while
| driving, and just comfort generally.
|
| Living in the bay area it's nice that the Teslas have
| this capability to warm the interior from 55 to 70 before
| I get in the car. It means I can leave the house in a t
| shirt in the morning.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| If you're driving around in subzero weather without a
| coat, gloves, and preferably a few blankets in the car,
| you're asking for more trouble than I am.
| eMSF wrote:
| Fuel-type block heaters heat the cabin as well (they turn
| on ventilation once the coolant has warmed enough).
| Electric heaters are meant to be used with a cabin heater
| that uses the same external power source.
| jonux wrote:
| Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in
| north America".
|
| Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in
| freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad
| idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in
| the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good
| reason.
|
| If it is around Celcius -40 then you would never turn off
| the vehicle. And a bit over that - there is always the
| Russian option of having a large candle below the oil
| tray (bad english, but you get it... under the engine)
| for pre heating. The more mainstream option is plugged in
| electric heating of coolant water.
|
| I remember from my days in the Swedish army that there
| was a pre heating scheme for the drivers where specific
| spots on trucks APC's and such should be heated by gas
| light.
|
| Usually it is sufficient to start the engine, clean the
| windows from ice, and then get going. A short engine
| running time without load for letting oils and fluids
| melt is only sane. Actually heating the cabin is nothing
| but wasteful.
| bbbbb5 wrote:
| >Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in
| north America".
|
| >Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load
| in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a
| bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK
| in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for
| good reason.
|
| My German BMW 7 series definitely had remote start (and
| an auxiliary heater too). Maybach GLS has an auxiliary
| heater.
|
| These are hardly uncommon features in _vastly_ cheaper
| cars either. Various Webasto systems have been around for
| ages, often installed by OEMs.
| nszceta wrote:
| > Actually heating the cabin is nothing but wasteful.
|
| Americans value comfort and they get it. Europeans want
| it too but they can't afford it (taxation and energy
| scarcity)
| mcspiff wrote:
| In Canada, electric block heaters for the engine are
| fairly common as well:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater . Similar
| concept to fire under the engine, but a bit more modern
| WirelessGigabit wrote:
| That's not allowed in Europe.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| Running the engine is a very inefficient way to heat the
| oil (sometimes requiring a plug-in _electric_ engine
| block heater if it's so cold the bearings and rings would
| be insufficiently lubricated to start), and doesn't work
| at all to warm up a gelled tank of diesel. It's
| ridiculously inefficient to try to cool the cabin.
|
| EV heating and cooling is far superior to warming up a
| gas vehicle.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| I don't know, I've been to Quebec and there's a ton of EVs
| there so I assume people manage?
| fsh wrote:
| There is no such thing as windchill for a car.
| aaronax wrote:
| Generally true, but could be relevant for calculating heat
| loss rates of cabin or battery. Only when parked I guess,
| as air velocity due to driving would typically be much
| greater.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| In the summer, I can drive from Calgary to Edmonton without
| stopping to charge. I did one trip at -40 (without windchill)
| and I had to charge in Red Deer for about 30 minutes to make
| it.
| drewg123 wrote:
| My Tesla Model X 100D looses 25-40% of range in the winter (and
| by "winter, I mean 20-50F, as I live in Virginia). This is
| partially due to resistance heating, and the range is better if
| you're somehow able to live with keeping the heat off and using
| just the steering wheel and seat heaters.
|
| However, one thing I've never gotten used to is just how _cold_
| my feet get in the winter in this car. Even with the heat at full
| blast, the footwells are quite cold. This is a very different
| experience from most ICE cars I 've owned, where engine heat
| blows directly on your feet and keeps them toasty.
| pitaj wrote:
| Not having enough hot air on the feet is a common issue across
| cars in general, from my experience.
| drewg123 wrote:
| This car takes it to an entirely new level. I've never had to
| use heated socks in any other car I've owned, including
| horrible old 80s economy cars I owned in Buffalo, NY.
| darknavi wrote:
| Very odd. I noticed my Model 3's floor gets quite warm in the
| winter on long road trips (like warm to the touch).
| everdrive wrote:
| I wish they did tests where cabin heat was minimized. Depending
| on what your temperatures are, driving a cold car might not be
| viable. But, it would be nice to know how much of the loss is due
| to cold itself, and how much of the loss is due to comfort.
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