[HN Gopher] Solar furnace to melt steel at 2000degC for Swiss re...
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Solar furnace to melt steel at 2000degC for Swiss recycler
Author : baseline-shift
Score : 51 points
Date : 2022-12-14 20:29 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.solarpaces.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.solarpaces.org)
| michael_j_ward wrote:
| Do I have this Napkin math correct?
|
| 400 tons produced per year (original article)
|
| $1000 per ton (generous [0], current index at $770)
|
| $400k per year revenue (calculated)
|
| $25M Euro investment (original article)
|
| ~63 years payback on *revenue* (being generous again with
| EURSD=$1)
|
| Do I have that right?
|
| [0] https://www.cmegroup.com/markets/metals/ferrous/hrc-
| steel.ht...
| acchow wrote:
| Plus revenue from selling carbon credits. I don't know the
| value of that.
| jseutter wrote:
| You have the math right, but the product wrong. They are
| looking for specific types of steel that are currently
| unavailable at almost any price. Their order size is too small
| to warrant returning a phone call from normal steel producers.
| Certain types of tool steel that are currently available sell
| for upwards of $3000/ton, but the type of steel they need is no
| longer a commodity, so the price is likely even higher.
|
| They have 50 tons of scrap steel that is exactly what they
| need, but need a spot to melt it down for reuse. You can't
| (partially guessing here) just throw it in an existing smeltery
| while maintaining its purity. They have been collecting this
| scrap by talking to other users that also use the same
| material.
|
| The article mentions they are in the Jura Arc. I didn't know
| this, but that is a reference to the watchmakers valley in
| Switzerland. If you're selling a $60k watch, it better be made
| from 99.999999% pure unobtanium.
|
| I have seen similar situations before where when you start
| making a niche product, suddenly demand pops out of the
| background that wasn't there before because the product simply
| wasn't available. Even if it isn't profitable from day 1 it
| might eventually become profitable.
| baseline-shift wrote:
| Wow, that is very interesting and informative. I had not
| realized that.
| recycledmatt wrote:
| You would not be able to throw it in a 'smelter' and have it
| maintain its chemistry - smelters are huge mass production
| shops. A foundry could do this without problem. They exist to
| do small, chemically precise runs.
| aaron695 wrote:
| jsnell wrote:
| Are you sure about that "unavailable at almost any price"
| part? Their initial inputs seem to be be the scraps produced
| by the local manufacturers in a relatively tiny area over the
| last few years. If this grade of steel wasn't available,
| where did all these local manufacturers get a constant supply
| from? (I.e. there has to be an existing and supplied market,
| it's not like they're recycling the steel only from the
| scuttled German battleships in Scapa Flow or something.)
|
| The use cases are quoted as "watchmaking and medical
| subcontracting", fwiw.
| rr888 wrote:
| Much of the heavy industry in the future is likely to be in
| deserts near the equator.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Which would be nice except people don't live there, so they'd
| have to pay a premium to workers to relocate and live in an
| equatorial desert, as well as transport in all the food, water,
| and housing that they will need. Sort of like ocean oil
| platform workers.
| monkmartinez wrote:
| I live in a big, hot desert with millions of others right
| here in the USA. We are ready for this tech. Intel and TSMC
| think this desert is pretty awesome, as do I.
| rr888 wrote:
| Middle East already has a lot of workers from Asia. People
| follow the money, if the works is there the people will
| follow. The biggest problem is if it gets too hot to be able
| to live.
| hammock wrote:
| Sort of like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Phoenix, Las Vegas? It has
| worked for the those places.
| recycledmatt wrote:
| As someone in the recycling supply chain, this is incredibly
| cool. The possible carbon reduction emissions are massive. This
| would need to scale up by factors of 100 (400 tons a year is
| nothing- a single sea borne cargo that is traded is often
| 32-40000 tons), but amazing to see the cutting edge.
| random3 wrote:
| That looks like something from the future and the photo made me
| remember the Dune II windtaps -
| https://strategywiki.org/wiki/File:Dune_II_wind_trap.jpg
| smm11 wrote:
| Thermodynamics, blah, blah. Buncha' people no doubt fun at
| parties.
| baseline-shift wrote:
| To decarbonize heavy industry, highly concentrated solar thermal
| is the best option. Heat is the form of energy most responsible
| for carbon emissions in industries like steel and cement. Solar
| thermal (duh) generates heat from thousands of "suns" of
| sunlight.
| Xylakant wrote:
| Solar may replace the heat component in some applications (as
| in this one), but in refining steel the carbon is required for
| the chemical process - it binds the oxygen from the iron.
| Carbon in that application can be replaced by hydrogen, but it
| can't be just replaced by another heat source.
| vba616 wrote:
| How is that carbon emissions? It sounds like carbon absorbed?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _How is that carbon emissions?_
|
| In goes iron ore, a mix of iron oxides and carbon, out
| comes iron and carbon oxides. The carbon moved from the ore
| to the atmosphere.
| sfe22 wrote:
| I always wondered why not use a system like this to heat water
| and use turbine to generate electricity. Shouldn't this get much
| higher output efficiency compared to pv panels.
| jws wrote:
| The maximum efficiency of a steam turbine is just shy of 50%,
| by the time you have integrated the whole plant, 23-35% is
| typical. (so says wikipedia)
|
| The sort of solar panels one would use in a large installation
| are around 23% efficient.
|
| So they are close in "power/hectare". From there it is capital
| costs and cost of operation that will make the decision.
| nerdawson wrote:
| Systems like that already exist. They're known as Concentrated
| Solar Power:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power
| sfe22 wrote:
| Thanks, that is awesome.
| danans wrote:
| The problem is that it's more expensive on a levelized cost
| of energy basis than solar and wind.
|
| It might be more competitive if it can be paired with
| thermal storage, but AFAIK that's not demonstrates at scale
| yet.
| baseline-shift wrote:
| The thermal energy storage aspect of CSP is how the heat
| is accessed to run the power block - it not paired with-
| like some kind of bolt-on extra - is definitely
| demonstrated at scale. Just not in the US, which only
| tried out 5 CSP plants, only 2 with storage. China is
| currently building 30 CSP plants - all with storage.
| Here's how thermal energy storage in CSP works
| https://www.solarpaces.org/how-csp-thermal-energy-
| storage-wo...
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| teruakohatu wrote:
| > The solar furnace could melt up to 400 tons of recycled steel
| each year.
|
| This is very little, it's about the amount of steel used in 450
| cars.
|
| My tiny country with 5 million people (New Zealand) recycles
| 300,000 tonnes of steel per year.
| jcampbell1 wrote:
| I'd be willing to bet this design is more expensive than solar
| panels and using an electric furnace which is common for
| recycling steel.
|
| You still need some way to deal with rust, and carbon electrodes
| work great.
|
| Steel is roughly $500 per ton, so they are looking at $200k a
| year in revenue. This is a cool research project, but the
| economics are not realistic anytime soon.
| xupybd wrote:
| Yeah but the site already existed. So it's a very cheap way to
| test the idea.
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