[HN Gopher] Min: A fast, minimal browser that protects your privacy
___________________________________________________________________
Min: A fast, minimal browser that protects your privacy
Author : aaossa
Score : 170 points
Date : 2022-12-14 13:58 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (minbrowser.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (minbrowser.org)
| lopkeny12ko wrote:
| > browser that protects your privacy
|
| It's Chromium under the hood. No thanks.
| mikl wrote:
| Looks nice, but since they can't be bothered to get the Mac app
| properly signed, I can't be bothered to try it.
|
| Sorry, but with the malware threat level being what it is,
| getting the app signatures right is table stakes.
| DrSarez wrote:
| "a fast, minimal browser [...] written entirely with CSS and
| JavaScript using Electron" - That sounds like an oxymoron to me.
| Cupprum wrote:
| Electron used to be much worse than it is right now. The
| project matured a lot. That being said, there still are some
| things to improve.
| graderjs wrote:
| It would be cool if there was a "reference implementation" of the
| W3C specs on HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc, that was untethered to a
| particular megacorporation / browser-vendor / ideology / stance
| on privacy / insert other potentially divisive fracture line here
| ... and fully open source.
|
| Then folks could "plug them in" as libraries to their app /
| custom browser, and go to town adding all the custom ad and
| spyware or privacy and freedum preserving defenses they like.
|
| Surely a committed group of open sourcers on GitHub could achieve
| this.
| sprkwd wrote:
| Out of the new, new wave of browsers, I'm actually enjoying Arc
| browser at the moment.
|
| https://arc.net
| poetril wrote:
| I've been using Arc on my work machine, really hoping they
| release a Linux compatible version soon so I can use it on my
| personal machines as well.
| kieckerjan wrote:
| Would be nice if the site told me what it is all about instead
| of asking for my e-mail address.
| sadn1ck wrote:
| Same, I use it for all the work apps I need instead of getting
| 5 different electron apps, works pretty well. The easel and
| notes are also pretty nice.
| imbnwa wrote:
| Arc is the best innovation in browser UI yet
| vehemenz wrote:
| I tried it, but I realized there was no mobile app to sync
| with. Unless that's changed.
| bmulyadi wrote:
| +1 for Arc, their Boost feature lets you create browser add-ons
| with just a few lines of code
| column wrote:
| Moving the window is harder than it should be, the main tab takes
| all the width therefore you have to aim on top of it but not to
| high... Altdrag to the request, but still rather frustrating
| hestefisk wrote:
| Every time I see a new browser with privacy features announced, I
| get hopeful it's actually something new. Until I discover it's
| another Chromium fork with a different skin. I really wish Servo
| hadn't died. Until then, I'll stick with FF.
| rexreed wrote:
| If you want fast and minimal, give Lynx a try. The original fast,
| minimal, privacy protected browser: https://lynx.invisible-
| island.net/current/
| avian wrote:
| Lynx won't load Google Analytics scripts for sure. On the other
| hand your user agent string will be pretty much unique on the
| web. Partly because approximately no one is using Lynx and
| partly because Lynx leaks the versions of itself and just about
| every related library on your system in the UA string.
| x98asfd wrote:
| Also netsurf is a good one, if you don't really care about
| using js. And google seems to still work on it.
| tomrod wrote:
| Yes! CLI based browsers are awesome.
| rollcat wrote:
| Apologies for nitpicking, but Lynx is not a CLI program. CLI
| programs are non-interactive, composable via stdio / shell
| scripting, designed to do their one task and return you to
| your shell prompt. Lynx is an interactive, terminal-based
| (character cell grid) program, that takes over your shell
| session - it has every quality of a GUI program, except it's
| using a terminal emulator as its toolkit.
|
| But of course - it's still awesome, it's just not CLI.
| tomrod wrote:
| I greatly appreciate the correction and feedback.
| jefftk wrote:
| Often people distinguish between "command-line interfaces"
| (CLI) and "text user interfaces" (TUI). So "sed" is a CLI
| program, while vim is a TUI program.
|
| But it's also common to use "CLI" to include "TUI"
| programs, so I don't think your parent is wrong.
| rollcat wrote:
| > But it's also common to use "CLI" to include "TUI"
| programs [...].
|
| It is indeed common, and (IMO) it is harmful, as TUI
| programs are just GUI programs in disguise. They do have
| two unique strengths: readily accessible over a serial
| console or an SSH session; and being the lowest common
| denominator of GUI programming. But they don't share any
| of the typical (desirable) qualities of CLI programs;
| typically, any CLI features (if present at all) are an
| afterthought. $ ls | vim Vim:
| Warning: Input is not from a terminal
| bee_rider wrote:
| The other way around, vim | ls
|
| Is a 100% foolproof and very "loud" sign that today is a
| scatterbrained day and I should write off the idea of
| being productive. Or I should have another cup of coffee.
| tomrod wrote:
| Denotatively, you're 100% correct.
|
| Connotatively, I have no concerns and won't revisit the
| comment, but will keep the distinction in mind when
| addressing a technical audience.
| [deleted]
| jayknight wrote:
| It's a "TUI."
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text-based_user_interface
| duffyjp wrote:
| w3m is my go to console browser. It does a better job
| displaying a site in a coherent way than lynx (IMO).
|
| I should add a lynx/w3m useragent test to my site and display
| images in AAlib for text browsers, that'd be a funny easter-
| egg.
| aliqot wrote:
| > I should add a lynx/w3m useragent test to my site and
| display images in AAlib for text browsers, that'd be a funny
| easter-egg.
|
| well there goes my weekend :) I didn't know this was
| possible, thank you
| gwn7 wrote:
| Fast, efficient, and battery-friendly browser... So far so good.
| Based on Electron... What?
|
| How can it be possible for an Electron based browser to be faster
| / more efficient / battery-friendlier than the other mainstream
| ones?
|
| Sounds like bullshit. We need to see some benchmarks.
| meltedcapacitor wrote:
| No need for a benchmark, wrapped Chromium is not going to beat
| Chromium. The curious thing is this urge to lie: a focused UI
| for Chromium is a valid project, why wrap it in deception and
| dishonesty?
| parhamn wrote:
| Sure it can. A chromium browser has an arbitrary number of
| chromium processes (e.g tabs). The root process quickly
| becomes irrelevant performance wise for average users.
|
| Even if you have the simplest tab unloading strategy (like
| Tab suspender) built in, you'd beat Chrome. But, unloading
| tabs isn't a safe thing to do in web-standard browsers but
| fine in niche consumer ones.
|
| Its not really word-smithing either, in all practical ways
| that matter to the end user, something like tab suspension
| makes it a much more efficient browser. Even if the
| JS/rendering (engine) bits are the same speed.
|
| Although, to be fair, I'm not sure if Min does this, the
| chromium browser I made does.
| feep wrote:
| Can we have a link to your chromium build with unloading?
|
| Or is it private?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Probably this (from parhamm's profile)
|
| https://synth.app/
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Min - A smarter web browser_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15429286 - Oct 2017 (72
| comments)
|
| _Show HN: Min - web browser with better search and built-in ad
| blocking_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11484770 - April
| 2016 (91 comments)
| NunoSempere wrote:
| Recently I've been playing with Rose, which is a small GTK+Webkit
| project that I've found really nice to hack on [1]. Src:
| <https://github.com/mini-rose/rose>
|
| [1]. And I'm in fact typing this from within it.
| nalekberov wrote:
| Browser running in browser, not bad, not bad at all.
| tiffanyh wrote:
| Don't forgot about https://librewolf.net/
|
| It's Firefox with every privacy setting turned to max.
| piaste wrote:
| Librewolf is great, and my main desktop browser.
|
| One warning that will avoid you some frustration: Librewolf's
| default settings delete all browsing history when the browser
| is closed. If you're using it on a private device and want to
| keep your history, change the setting the first time you run
| it. It's in the same place as in regular Firefox, nothing
| special.
| intelVISA wrote:
| +1 for librewolf, but be sure to augment your security posture
| with the appropriate countermeasures when using such a unique
| fingerprint else your 'privacy' is just getting you moved to an
| even narrower, and more closely regarded list.
| jancsika wrote:
| I made a pull request to Librewolf that adds a handy dialog
| to deal with just this issue:
|
| _Warning: You are using Librewolf. Augment security posture
| with the appropriate countermeasures?_
|
| _Yes | No | Continue | Abort | Cancel | Cancel with
| augmented security posture | Speak to elf_
| intelVISA wrote:
| Appreciate it, though I'm worried about the UX impact of
| having the correct choice (speak to elf) all the way at the
| end...
| goodpoint wrote:
| Rather use the Tor Browser. It does much, much more in
| anonymizing you both by using Tor and by reducing fingerprint.
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| There is also WaterFox, which I quite like as a secondary
| browser.
|
| https://www.waterfox.net/
| worldsavior wrote:
| It only increases fingerprinting.
| RubyRidgeRandy wrote:
| I tried this out for a little bit. Looks very clean.
|
| I had these issues and suggestions:
|
| - Set min to dark mode, but it made no difference. Restarted to
| no avail.
|
| - Set all ads to be blocked, still saw a lot of ads on reddit,
| youtube, others.
|
| - Design wise, I think the app should default to having borders
| between tabs.
|
| - There should be more white space at the top to drag the window
| around. The app opened maximized and when I went to drag it on
| windows I could only click the the URL bar because there is only
| a little bit of padding inbetween it and the top of the window.
|
| - I have a large monitor and the when you click on the url bar
| when you have multiple tabs open, it expands to the full window
| width so the text you were looking at moves all the way to the
| left, very nitpicky I know, but I think this is not a great
| design choice and maybe the text should stay where it is when
| changing sites.
| xnacly wrote:
| A browser in electron? At this point just use chromium - makes no
| difference.
|
| Anyway, use firefox or librewolf. Stop enabling the chromium
| monopoly!
| Kalium wrote:
| On the contrary, it makes a significant difference vs Chromium.
| Using Electron means having jettisoned a number of security
| protections that Chromium offers while exposing the system to
| the attacks those are designed to stop.
|
| In design terms, this is a wonderful, beautiful, laudable
| project in pursuit of a great purity of vision.
|
| In security terms, this is an exercise in recklessness. It's
| irresponsible to even _suggest_ that people should try using
| it.
| smaddock wrote:
| Can you elaborate on which security protections are not used
| by Electron, and by extension Min?
| Kalium wrote:
| https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security
|
| This seems like a good start to understanding Electron
| security and why using it to do what the documentation
| expressly states is unwise might be less than optimal.
| maria2 wrote:
| Can you give a specific example of what is wrong with
| Min's security configuration, assuming it is following
| Electron best practices. Asserting that the security
| model is bad and linking to Electron's security tutorial
| is not helpful.
| Kalium wrote:
| For my own part, I find the introduction that
| specifically warns that Electron is not a web browser and
| should not be trusted to handle potentially malicious
| code from over a network to be clear enough. I understand
| that this is an opinion that not everyone will share.
|
| For a single specific example, look at the information on
| permissions and compare to how min handles them. I also
| see no functionality that attempts to determine if code
| is malicious or not. Chrome _does_ have measures in it to
| do this.
|
| That said, I need to be clear. The matter at hand is not
| a matter of mere configuration and cannot be addressed by
| better configuration of Electron. Chromium was designed
| and built to run in a very hostile context. Electron has
| been built to run in a much more trustworthy context.
| There is no amount of configuration that will turn the
| latter into the former because it is not purely a
| difference of configuration.
|
| Electron's security model is not bad in any absolute
| sense. It's designed for a particular context and set of
| scenarios. Dropping it into a very different one with
| very different needs makes it a poor fit for the job at
| hand. You may as well descend into a volcano with a home
| stove potholder.
|
| I hope this has clarified matters. I understand that some
| people will be very discouraged by the stance I have
| taken on this. I have no desire to crush their dreams,
| only to ensure they make good and wise decisions around
| security.
| ehhthing wrote:
| First and foremost, electron runs on often outdated
| versions of chromium which are vulnerable to known 0days.
|
| Electron RPC also makes it really easy to get RCE if you
| don't implement it properly, and most JavaScript
| developers don't implement it properly. Electron also
| does not have anywhere near as much security research
| into it.
|
| If you want to read more into the current state of
| electron security research, see
| https://blog.electrovolt.io/
| [deleted]
| nothrowaways wrote:
| Was my first reaction too.
| Alifatisk wrote:
| > Stop enabling the chromium monopoly!
|
| Amen to that, FF & the rest for the win!
| deagle50 wrote:
| +1 for librewolf (and arkenfox user.js). I just wish RFP didn't
| force 60hz rendering as have a 120hz MBP with 144hz external
| monitors...
| jxdxbx wrote:
| Yeah, when I saw that, I decided not to bother even checking it
| out. Your app has to be _really_ essential if you expect me to
| used a bloated, glorified web app.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| The advantage of Min would be the UI, which I find quite
| appealing myself.
| black7375 wrote:
| Firefox's design is more custom than you think.
|
| https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Show-Off-
| Yo... https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/pull/511
| stusmall wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a add-on to get
| close to that. I used one for Firefox in the late 00s that
| gave a similar minimal effect, just not as extreme.
|
| Today browsers are one of the most important pieces of
| security software on our machine. They have a huge surface
| area, act as a sandbox for gobs of untrusted code and many of
| us conduct our most sensitive work in them (online banking
| etc). I'd be hesitant to use any browser that doesn't have
| the team behind it to quickly manage threats and maintain
| high quality code.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Sadly, modern browsers don't allow add-ons to significantly
| alter the UI, so you'd never see an extension like this
| today.
|
| You can do some neat stuff with userchrome in Firefox (not
| as an add-on) but it'll break after basically every update.
| There's no infrastructure in place to update the userchrome
| in sync with the browser, and Mozilla appears to be hostile
| towards the whole feature.
|
| There are decent reasons for all of this, but it means the
| only way to experiment is to basically make your own app,
| as Min did.
| terminal_d wrote:
| Check out r/firefoxcss on reddit.
| iHateStylo wrote:
| One might argue this should be a fork of Chromium, not
| Electron. Chromium comes with native tabs and a bunch of
| other useful parts, without the security issues that Electron
| exposes.
| nateb2022 wrote:
| This isn't a fork of Electron. It is an Electron-based app,
| and as such the Electron project maintains the core
| functionality of the browser and Min just presents a
| unified interface and feature set.
| DoctorOW wrote:
| They didn't say "fork of Electron", rather Electron is
| essentially "Chromium - browser UI" so they are saying
| there is a simplification to be made in an app that is
| "Chromium - browser UI + browser UI"
| jefftk wrote:
| _> They didn 't say "fork of Electron"_
|
| Flagging that the phrase "this should be a fork of
| Chromium, not Electron" is ambiguous between "this
| shouldn't be a fork of Electron" and "this shouldn't be
| Electron".
| [deleted]
| nebulous1 wrote:
| The phrasing is ambiguous, I agree. However, as forking
| Electron to make Min wouldn't make any sense, and the
| replier knew this, reading it to mean that seems like a
| mistake to me. The fact is that it can be very difficult
| to write things that aren't ambiguous at some level
| (albeit that isn't the case here), so the reader has to
| make a good-faith effort to understand.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Fwiw, I read it the same way as nateb2022 at first. It
| took a second read to realize there was another
| interpretation. This is why writing is hard!
| calny wrote:
| > One might argue this should be a fork of Chromium, not
| Electron.
|
| Fair enough point. One reason it's Electron, I assume, is
| that it's much easier for typical developers to build than
| forking Chromium. I've been there. I've hacked at building
| a touchless-controlled browser that uses hand gesture and
| speech recognition to interact with the web. I can cobble
| something basic together in Electron, but it's much more
| intensive to get off the ground forking Chromium (though
| you're right the native tabs and useful parts would be
| helpful).
|
| > without the security issues that Electron exposes.
|
| Another reasonable point. For reference, here's an overview
| of security from Electron itself.[1] Security issues are
| one reason I haven't pursued the touchless browser more
| actively. I don't know if it's a dealbreaker, but it's not
| my area of expertise and I'd need to get seriously up to
| speed before releasing anything.
|
| From a glance, it does look like Min is trying to follow
| good security practices, such as having BrowserView
| webPreferences default to "nodeIntegration: false",
| "contextIsolation: true", etc.[2] And in the issues the
| maintainers seem aware of security issues, eg:
|
| > Making internal pages have the same privileges as the
| browser UI would be nice, although it's kind of difficult
| to implement. You could add nodeintegration to the webview
| tag, but I think there's a pretty big risk of accidentaly
| loading a regular webpage with nodeintegration enabled if
| we do that, which would be bad.[3]
|
| Ideally there wouldn't be such a large Chromium (and
| Chromium-based) monopoly on browsers, but overall I'm still
| glad to see projects like this trying to create different
| UI options.
|
| [1]
| https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security
|
| [2] https://github.com/minbrowser/min/blob/7aba03fb64533436
| 6f9ec...
|
| [3] https://github.com/minbrowser/min/issues/554#issuecomme
| nt-38...
| d12bb wrote:
| > Anyway, use firefox or librewolf. Stop enabling the chromium
| monopoly!
|
| Or Safari of course, it's really a great browser if one's on
| the Mac.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _Or Safari of course, it 's really a great browser if one's
| on the Mac._
|
| The venerable iCab or new Orion from Kagi shows what's
| possible here.
|
| https://www.icab.de/
|
| https://browser.kagi.com/
|
| Kagi's Orion runs Firefox and Chrome extensions, including on
| iOS, and of course works with Kagi search, which is enough
| better that it's worth switching from Google/Bing/DDG.
|
| ---
|
| EDIT to add, on iCab, it's been updated as of 2020, which
| unfortunately finally dropped the legacy Macs, but does
| support modern filter lists:
|
| _iCab 6.0 (September, 28th 2020)_
|
| _iCab 6.0 is completely rewritten, therefore there're many
| new features and existing many old features have changed. The
| new release uses the newer modern web engine of the macOS
| which is much faster and smoother than the classic engine
| that was used by older iCab releases. It also supports more
| web technologies._
|
| _Because the modern web engine had too many limitations
| under macOS 10.12 and older, the minimum macOS release for
| the new version of iCab is therefore macOS 10.13. Older macOS
| releases are no longer supported. This has the advantage that
| iCab can now rely on many native macOS features which are
| only available in newer macOS releases._
|
| _iCab now uses the native ,,Tabs" feature of the macOS, so
| the tabs in iCab will now behave just as the Tabs in all
| other Apps using the native Tabs feature (like Safari Mail,
| the Finder etc). All the capabilities of the macOS to manage
| tabs are fully available in iCab as well._
|
| _iCab is now using the native filter capabilities of the
| modern web engine of the macOS. Therefore the filter manager
| is completely new. The new filter manager supports the
| popular filter lists from AdBlock Plus, Easylist, uBlock and
| compatible. The filter manager window provides a few links to
| web sites where you can find these filter lists. using the
| ,,Add" or ,,Subscribe" links on these sites can directly
| import these filter lists, but you can also simply download
| these lists into a file and then use the ,,import" feature of
| the Filter Manager to import these files._
|
| _iCab 6.0 supports syncing of tabs, bookmarks, reading list,
| filters and search engine via iCloud. The iCloud sync is
| compatible to iCab Mobile for the iOS platform, so you can
| now sync all this data between iCab for the Mac and iCab
| Mobile for the iOS as well._
|
| _The new web engine provides more control over audio and
| video playback. It is possible to immediately stop all audio
| and video playback with a certain menu command. But it can
| also make sure that audio and video playback only occurs on
| the active tab._
|
| _Modules of the module manager can be put into the status
| bar, so these modules are directly accessible very fast and
| comfortably._
|
| _The App supports private tabs which do not save any private
| data (Cookies, Caches etc). Private tabs are marked with a
| red border around the address field._
|
| _And much more_
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >Kagi search, which is enough better that it's worth
| switching from Google/Bing/DDG.
|
| But highly unlikely to be better enough to justify paying a
| subscription for it (for most people, anyway), so it's
| always going to be confined to a small niche of users.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| Yeah, I'd rather just use StartPage
| senko wrote:
| Does everything need to be a billion dollar business?
|
| Globally, I can easily see enough users sign up to
| sustain the small team. Their blog post [0] mentiones
| they calculate they need 25,000 subscribers to sustain
| themselves.
|
| (I'm a paying customer, FWIW).
|
| [0] https://blog.kagi.com/status-update-first-three-
| months#futur...
| Terretta wrote:
| Here's a Venn diagram of two "worth it" reasons, not
| mutually exclusive:
|
| I'd argue if you live in first world, earn a living from
| tech, even if you don't care whether you pay for things
| vs. be tracked, it's worth the subscription, in the sense
| of, it's enough better to be worth paying for as a better
| tool, not just because there's no gaming of the SERPs
| above the fold. The Lenses are impressive, but it's not
| just that, the results are what one used to appreciate
| from web search. After getting used to the quality, the
| lower quality of Google or the Bing derivatives like DDG
| will frustrate you.
|
| If you dislike adtech or value privacy, it's worth the
| subscription, because there are no ads and no tracking.
| (Also, unlike neeva, to which I also subscribe, it's not
| an ad-alternative model from former ad-tech people.)
| reginaldo wrote:
| For a minimal experience, one can use WPE Webkit, which I've
| had some fun with. https://wpewebkit.org/
| josephd79 wrote:
| Safari is great on Mac. Never tried librewolf but what's the
| difference between it and Firefox itself?
| fumar wrote:
| I switched to Safari last year. The battery life improvements
| over Chrome makes it worth. It's been a solid browser
| experience and I haven't gone back to Chrome for anything. I
| wish I could add Kagi as a default search.
| vagabund wrote:
| If you use Kagi for search, I'm assuming you've used their
| Orion browser [0], where you can set Kagi as default. Any
| reason why you didn't like it?
|
| [0] https://browser.kagi.com/
| ghostpepper wrote:
| I use kagi and had not even heard that they have their
| own browser. Why would why use that over one of the "big
| three" (FF/Chrome/Safari) with serious corporate security
| teams backing them?
|
| edit: Okay so it's webkit based, mac only, with built-in
| adblocking, which sounds nice, but honestly the idea that
| it can easily install extensions from both chrome and
| firefox sounds like a security nightmare to me.
|
| The fact that the only mention of security in their FAQ
| is to conflate it with privacy
|
| "Most browsers regularly "phone home" dozens or even
| hundreds times. Each request poses a security risk"
|
| is a red flag IMHO
| ipaddr wrote:
| Why use kagi instead of the big 3? Google, Bing, Yandex?
| The companies with serious corporate security?
| tomr75 wrote:
| Which Adblock do you use?
| fumar wrote:
| I've been using 1Blocker for a few years. If anyone knows
| a better one, please chime in. I like that it works on
| iOS and Mac Safari.
| sshine wrote:
| Electron, WebKit, nope.
|
| Kudos for experimenting with minimalism!
|
| But this is not the alternative to Firefox I've been looking for.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| You've got me curious, what are you looking for in an
| alternative?
| antihero wrote:
| Firefox but with Servo
| leidenfrost wrote:
| The most sincere answer would be: "A fast and modern browser
| with privacy at max, light and fast, with with linux/BSD in
| mind, by some magical entity that somehow gets enough money
| with donations, where they let me to donate without
| disclosing my identity but not with crypto because I'm
| against crypto".
| sshine wrote:
| Exactly!
|
| Except for the virtue signalling around crypto. :-)
| latexr wrote:
| > Electron, WebKit, nope.
|
| Electron uses Chromium. Which uses Blink, not WebKit.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| Blink is a fork of WebKit.
| latexr wrote:
| It is a fork started a decade ago, hence not the same
| thing. Just like Webkit is not the same as KHTML, which it
| forked.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Well the worst part of Firefox is arguably Gecko.
|
| If one could make a browser with Firefox's backend and
| instead render with Blink that would be pretty dope.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Too bad Mozilla gave up on Servo.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Servo was a working prototype to try out the rendering
| changes and Rust. Those changes are being / have been
| integrated into Firefox.
| the_third_wave wrote:
| It is Blink which drives the monoculture more than
| Chrome/Chromium since it is there that standards are made
| or broken (or flouted). What is needed is competition in
| this space, a new browser 'engine' to compete with Blink
| (Chrome/Chromium/Brave/Vivaldi/Edge/etc.), Gecko
| (Firefox/Seamonkey/etc) and Webkit
| (Safari/Epiphany/anything on iThings).
|
| Maybe Servo can be rescued from oblivion? Get Mozilla to
| dump their activist-CEO (who is more concerned with her own
| remuneration and virtue signalling than with the
| development of their core product), use the funds thus
| saved to hire back all those developers which were let go
| under her reign and get Servo back on track. Blink is the
| one layout engine to rule them all after all...
| Ash Blink durbatuluk ash Blink gimbatul, Ash
| Blink thrakatuluk agh Google-ishi krimpatul
| jfk13 wrote:
| > standards are made or broken (or flaunted)
|
| I think you may have meant "flouted" there? Though
| sometimes flaunting a standard might also be a thing.
| the_third_wave wrote:
| Yes, corrected, flouted it shall be.
| unsafecast wrote:
| Yeah, let's feed the monopoly! Surely a good way to get
| better products.
| khuey wrote:
| > a browser with Firefox's backend and instead render with
| Blink
|
| Gecko is Firefox's "backend" ...
| moffkalast wrote:
| Isn't it just the rendering engine? There's more to a
| browser than just laying out html.
| rollcat wrote:
| A browser is not a web app, it doesn't have a strict
| separation of "frontend" and "backend" in the same sense
| that a web app would have; the lines are drawn quite
| differently. The rendering engine is never "just" the
| rendering engine; you can't abstract or swap it without
| tremendous effort.
|
| If you'd like to learn more about how a web browser
| project would organize its internal architecture, but are
| discouraged by the complexity of Chromium, Firefox, etc.
| I'd recommend source diving Ladybird
| (https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird), NetSurf
| (https://www.netsurf-browser.org/), or Dillo
| (https://www.dillo.org/).
| [deleted]
| posharma wrote:
| All software products start like this - minimal, less memory,
| etc. Wait for a few months and things go south. Sorry, doesn't
| excite me.
| toyg wrote:
| I just use FF and leave the stock OS browser (typically Edge or
| Safari) "clean", ready for those battery-saving times.
|
| The other day I only had a 20W laptop charger, which I know is
| only enough to slow down battery discharge with FF; used Edge,
| and the battery actually _charged_ significantly. Same
| experiences I had with Safari. I 'll keep using Firefox, because
| it's good for the ecosystem, but when battery is an issue, I
| switch.
| ryanianian wrote:
| > Or search through the full text of every page you've visited,
| even if you don't remember the title.
|
| Is that a feature of the underlying browser engine or an addon?
| I've wanted that for years but maybe not enough to fiddle with an
| entirely new browser app.
| dmitriid wrote:
| On MacOS Safari has had this for quite sometime, but I think it
| taps into system-wide Spotlight
| tta wrote:
| Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30696451
| wereallterrrist wrote:
| Just... give Firefox a shot people. Please:
| https://i.imgur.com/81OpEOy.png
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Just... give Firefox a shot people_
|
| I did. But the Firefox UI is still very Windows-centric, and
| doesn't feel like a real Mac program at all.
|
| But the big reason I don't use it is that you can't define how
| to switch from tab to tab.
|
| Every program on my Mac from Safari to Nova to VS Codium to my
| database manager allows me to switch tabs with the standard
| macOS Keyboard Shortcuts settings. So I use the same keys to
| switch tabs in every program on my Mac. Which is part of the
| whole Mac experience -- Things happening the same way between
| apps.
|
| Even the Finder, and the DuckDuckGo browser allow this.
|
| Not so with Firefox. The simple addition of "Show Next Tab" and
| "Show Previous Tab" in the drop-down menus would fix this. It's
| so simple. So elementary. So basic to every other Mac program I
| use that its absence in Firefox is glaring. I'm not going to
| rearrange the muscle memory I use all day every day for one
| program.
| drcongo wrote:
| That's absolutely baffling, I had no idea. I've been lucky in
| that my muscle-memory-trained tab switch shortcut is the one
| that Firefox uses (Cmd+Option+arrows) and I apply that to
| every other app on Mac.
| sphars wrote:
| Just downloaded FF this week and started using it as my primary
| browser as I start to transition from Chromium-based browsers.
|
| May I ask what you did to configure your browser that way
| (extensions/settings)? I like the look of it, and looking for
| ways to customize my setup.
| owaislone wrote:
| Also try sideberry. I moved to it from TST and like it so
| far.
| boplicity wrote:
| Tree Style Tabs are nice. I also have it set up so the URL
| bar doesn't include search -- and the search bar is separate.
| This makes it easier to get to the right place by starting to
| type a url in the url bar. I often just type one letter and
| then press enter, and voila, I'm where I want to be. It
| "learns" over time what you're typing in.
|
| Also, of course, you should install uBlock Origin.
| pxoe wrote:
| firefox is overstuffed. minimal browser it is not.
| RussianCow wrote:
| Can you explain? What is it "overstuffed" with?
| daneel_w wrote:
| Nobody really knows. Firefox is 350 MiB in size. The
| Windows XP SP3 install CD is 310 MiB in size.
| RussianCow wrote:
| The Arch Linux Firefox package weighs in at 237.8 MB
| installed.[0] Meanwhile, Chromium is 20% larger at 285.8
| MB.[1] Which other browser is significantly smaller than
| that? I checked a few other ones and they were all within
| spitting distance of Chromium.
|
| Also, that's not a useful comparison because web browsers
| are basically operating systems now, with how complex
| they are. Not to mention that Windows XP was released
| over two decades ago. So, again, I'm not sure what your
| point is.
|
| [0]: https://archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/firefox/
|
| [1]:
| https://archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/chromium/
| daneel_w wrote:
| _> "Which other browser is significantly smaller than
| that? I checked a few other ones and they were all within
| spitting distance of Chromium."_
|
| Safari was 40-something MiB installed a few macOS
| versions ago before parts of it were migrated out of the
| app to become protected system libraries. The reason the
| others you checked are of the same size is because they
| are forks of the same two browsers.
|
| Add.: I just have to disagree with the notion that
| browsers are "basically" operating systems because of how
| complex they are. They really are not. Not by a longshot.
| Neither do they contain the fundamentals of an operating
| system, nor do they contain the upper reaches of them. We
| can pretend they are operating system facsimiles by doing
| a lot of impressive and fun stuff in JavaScript and WASM,
| but this isn't the same thing. The complexity of an
| operating system, even a simplified one, is of a
| completely different sort and depth. This comparison only
| fits the sarcastic intention people have when making the
| comparison - we can joke about it, because of how
| absurdly large and tangled browsers have become.
| vjerancrnjak wrote:
| I tried it on mobile and it's interesting that quite a lot of
| websites are broken. Many tapping workflows I had in Chrome on
| Android are fully broken in Firefox. From simple deepl.com to
| Google products that look like they dropped FF support.
|
| Even Reddit on Firefox PC crashes occasionally (the whole site
| turns white while browsing). Reddit on FF on Android is barely
| browsable.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| I haven't encountered any issue with Firefox for Android for
| years.
|
| Here's how you can fix this all at once: https://old.reddit.c
| om/r/firefox/comments/g3tyfu/how_to_swit...
|
| Google is intentionally breaking support for Firefox on their
| websites. Other just don't care and support monopolies.
| vjerancrnjak wrote:
| Thanks, interesting, I'll try it out. I know I convinced my
| wife to switch to Firefox for Android (for uBlock) and she
| was complaining even more than I about all of her browsing
| workflows being crippled.
|
| Compared to her I rarely use my phone for browsing, I do
| not feel as impacted.
| dijit wrote:
| Firefox does seem to be untested for a lot of websites.
|
| You can't do video calls with Teams in firefox for a really
| clear and obvious example, but I encounter breakages quite
| often and have to switch back to Chrome.
|
| Safari suffers the same, but I get the impression people
| are testing safari more than Chrome.. but I hear so many
| complaints on hackernews about safari, I suspect at some
| point Chrome penetration will finally dislodge Safari on
| MacOS... or if MacOS market share goes down: then it's over
| and we have a total monopoly.
| BigElephant wrote:
| How do you get vertical tabs?
| mcny wrote:
| I believe the meta is to use tree style tabs
|
| warning: is for advanced users
|
| https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-
| ta...
| aembleton wrote:
| Using Tree Style Tabs: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
| US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...
| arboles wrote:
| I prefer sidebery because it's cleaner than TST OOTB
|
| https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/
| vorpalhex wrote:
| sidebery also has very lovely tab grouping and tab sleeping
| (unloads the tabs from memory).
|
| This is nice because you can take all your tabs for a
| research project, condense them to a group and then nap
| them until you come back to the project.
| arboles wrote:
| > tab grouping and tab sleeping
|
| Oh yes I forgot TST doesn't have that since I haven't
| used it in so long. Keeping groups of unloaded tabs might
| not be healthy for me, enables my tab hoarding habit.
| sound1 wrote:
| the parent should be at the top of the page imho
| wereallterrrist wrote:
| It's +43 and seemingly pinned to the bottom of the page. But
| I know where I am :P.
| [deleted]
| Maursault wrote:
| Which OS _versions_ are supported?
| lzauz wrote:
| Whatever Electron supports I suppose.
| nothrowaways wrote:
| I like the minimalist UI, it should be a default other browsers
| too.
| therealmarv wrote:
| Stay away if you value your security. Nothing personally against
| Electron but a browser is (or can be) exposed to all kinds of
| sites which do not have your best interest in mind. You really
| want always the latest security updates and a browser with a
| strong security concept (sandbox, encapsulation, taking advantage
| OS security etc) which is not the aim of Electron afaik.
| kevincox wrote:
| Yes. As I understand it, you should not render untrusted web
| content in Electron. They do have a checklist of how to attempt
| to do so securely but overall it is not designed to make web
| browsers, it is designed to create applications.
|
| https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security#iso...
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| I hate to be egotistical, I'm sure like many people before me, I
| had the idea of a reader only browser.
|
| Of course I never came through with the idea because well...look
| how much unpaid work goes into it.
|
| As others have said, I don't think Electron is well suited for
| anything to be resource friendly. I think it's well suited for
| apps on machines that can afford to run Electron, not something
| as general purpose as a browser.
|
| Writing a browser is very hard, but something done in reader mode
| is clearly more feasible. I wanted to marry FreeText with Gumbo,
| OpenGL and C++. Maybe even throw in a built in RSS reader that
| displays the stripped pages. but I have no idea how to get
| FreeText working with OpenGL.
|
| I think if I could achieve this, I could get something that's
| truly lightweight.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| > Writing a browser is very hard
|
| And this pretty much sums up why I hate todays internet.
|
| Writing a telnet client was super easy. FTP, a little harder,
| but doable. Writing an SVG renderer using any canvas like tech
| (Cairo, canvas, CoreGraphics) is moderate, but again pretty
| doable. The fact that the w3c has churned out spec after spec
| that layers more and more complexity on something that was
| supposed to be a document viewer with links and such that we
| find ourselves in a position where advancing the state of the
| art requires a small nations state worth of resources, just to
| come current, is profoundly depressing.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| My biggest concern attempting to scrape out just the text and
| images. If this browser is anything like Safari Reader mode,
| it's gonna fail to read all those modern pages that are
| entangled in template engine boilerplate snot.
|
| The web is far too bloated, but it's been consumer centric
| for a long time, this was only expected. It's not just an
| HTTP document viewer, it's a pop up tabloid viewer...
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| I installed it (yes you can install this right away, the download
| button doesn't lead you to some signup form!) and played with it
| a bit.
|
| It's beautiful, but I feel that chrome has a better
| beauty/functionality tradeoff. Some differences vs chrome I
| noted:
|
| -- no favicons
|
| -- no addressbar
|
| -- no skeuomorphic tabs
|
| All these things make it look more beautiful and elegant then
| chrome, but less functional.
| timeon wrote:
| > (yes you can install this right away, the download button
| doesn't lead you to some signup form!)
|
| Are there browsers you can download only after login?
| sodapopcan wrote:
| I love this browser in theory, but these were my problems with
| it exactly and they all really hurt usability.
|
| Favicons are ultra functional--when I'm looking for a tab most
| of the time I'm looking for the favicon, not the title.
| Otherwise, I'm moving my mouse to the rough area it I know that
| it is and having tabs that fill up as much of the width as
| possible kills this as I'm opening more and more tabs and they
| shrink exponentially.
|
| And why no option to show the addressbar? I feel disoriented
| when I can't glance up and see where I am. The worst part is to
| see the addressbar, it hides the page, so you can never see the
| page and the addressbar together in context.
|
| I was really excited about this browser but unfortunately those
| were all hard show-stoppers.
| sodapopcan wrote:
| To say something positive as I focused on negative there, I
| love the 1password integration. It's by far the least
| intrusive I've encountered and I really, really want that in
| another browser (or for min to fix the aforementioned
| problems, but I feel like they're maybe core to its
| aesthetic?)
| thunderbong wrote:
| Everyone's comparing this to a regular browser. But since it's
| electron based, I'm just wondering whether this could be a path
| to creating a really good browser for development. As of now,
| most of the debugging that's done on browsers are either based on
| the tools provided by the browser itself, or via extensions and
| add-ons.
|
| I just hope, this kind of paves the way for developers themselves
| to add features and capabilities.
|
| Other browsers in this space - Polypane[0], Sizzy[1], Blisk[2]
|
| [0]: https://polypane.app/ [1]: https://sizzy.co [2]:
| https://blisk.io
| kilian wrote:
| Hey, creator of Polypane here! What would make something a
| 'really good browser for development' to you?
| aliqot wrote:
| All of the testimonials are broken on Sizzy for me
| jmondi wrote:
| Everyone is complaining it is built in electron, and it is a
| browser running a browser. Brave is also built on electron and is
| also a browser running a browser.
| cfuendev wrote:
| People will complain about _literally anything_ without ever
| comparing the UI, UX, Speed or Resource Usage of the thing
| rivaling their favorite app. Everybody should get Min, use it
| enough time, then make educated opinions instead of hating in
| web technologies just for the memes.
|
| I didn't know Brave was an Electron app
| latexr wrote:
| > instead of hating in web technologies just for the memes.
|
| Let's nip this in the bud. The comment you're replying to
| says "Everyone is complaining it is built in electron" but
| I've read every comment in this so far tiny thread and there
| is _literally one_ comment complaining of it being Electron.
|
| > I didn't know Brave was an Electron app
|
| It's not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33983708
| jmondi wrote:
| Fwiw, I commented on this when there was only one or two
| comments on this, and all of them were complaining about
| electron.
| kiawe_fire wrote:
| I'm as anti-Electron as the next person, but my arguments
| against it are due to the bloat and disrespectful resource
| usage of using an entire web browser to show local app UI.
|
| But if what you need is an actual, literal web browser, then
| I'm not sure I see why this is a bad choice.
| Kalium wrote:
| As per their own documentation, Electron is not a web browser
| and should not be treated like one.
|
| I understand that some may experience differences of opinion,
| but I regard it as sufficient warning when the developers of
| something warn that it should not be used as a web browser:
| https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security
| kiawe_fire wrote:
| Thank you for the informative reply - I stand completely
| corrected.
|
| I can definitely see now why this would be problematic.
| yla92 wrote:
| I don't think it's true anymore since they have moved on from
| Electron to Chromium.
|
| https://www.zdnet.com/article/brave-browser-moves-to-chromiu...
| marosgrego wrote:
| Some truly minimal browser: https://www.netsurf-browser.org
| kekebo wrote:
| Inb4 references to links, lynx, brow.sh et al
| bee_rider wrote:
| I liked suckles surf (which at least uses webkit2 rather than
| being yet another chrome). But in the end, the web is too
| complicated for simple tools, something like Firefox with
| extensions and stuff to handle downloaded files is pretty
| helpful.
|
| It seems quite unfortunate that such large programs are required
| to handle current web standards. Anything useful could be
| expressed as text in plain old html, but then, all the bloat
| needs to be there to pay the bills I guess.
| wendyshu wrote:
| There needs to be a word for these projects that are a UI layer
| on top of a preexisting browser engine. Calling it a "new
| browser" is a little confusing.
| benrapscallion wrote:
| FWIW, I love Lynx on my Mac, especially for ad-heavy websites. I
| miss the "in browser" services that brow.sh [1] used to provide.
|
| [1] https://www.brow.sh
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I love Lynx on my Mac_
|
| I love Lynx, too. I connect my retro computers to the internet
| through my Mac. Unfortunately, Lynx has bugs that you can't see
| on modern machines that show up on old, low speed connections.
|
| For example, when connecting to a web site, it displays a whole
| bunch of connection status information that I just don't care
| about. Enough that it's intrusive.
|
| Connecting to this web site, it displays ALL of the following:
| Getting https://news.ycombinator.com/ Looking up
| news.ycombinator.com Making HTTPS connection to
| news.ycombinator.com SSL callback:ok, preverify_ok=1,
| ssl_okay=0 Verified connection to news.ycombinator.com
| (cert=news.ycombinator.com) Certificate issued by:
| /C=US/O=DigiCert Inc/CN=DigiCert TLS RSA SHA256 2020 CA1
| Secure 256-bit TLSv1.2 (ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) HTTP
| connection HTTP request. HTTP request sent; waiting
| for response. Read 1.5 KiB of data, 5.3 KiB/sec.
| HTTP/1.1 200 OK
|
| On a modern computer, all that flashes by so quickly that you
| never see it. On a retro computer at 300 baud, it takes
| FOREVER, and you have to sit through it for EVERY page.
|
| I've tried every Lynx flag and configuration listed, and none
| of them actually work. I think the notification suppression
| feature broke, but nobody noticed it because we've grown
| accustomed to high speed connections.
| jefftk wrote:
| Whenever a new browser is announced my first question is if it's
| a new engine, and if not, what engine is it a UI for?
|
| In this case it turns out to be built on Electron, which uses the
| Blink (Chrome's) rendering engine.
| deliriumchn wrote:
| Honestly hard to believe that its a power efficiency focused
| browser when it uses electron and chromium.
|
| Besides that, I really enjoy the surge of browsers in last few
| years, we got orion, min, arc and I guess few more I missed
| callumprentice wrote:
| The Ladybird bowser - part of the Serenity OS - is another
| alternative I'm following with a mixture of astonishment,
| admiration and excitement -
| https://awesomekling.github.io/Ladybird-a-new-cross-platform...
|
| I suspect that for most people, it still has a way to go before
| it could be considered a daily driver, but the rate of progress
| is incredible and I'm sure it will get there.
| password4321 wrote:
| What is the easiest way to use Ladybird?
| csb6 wrote:
| You have to build from source. The repo is here [0]; there is
| a link to build instructions in the README. It is still
| experimental, but has an active community working on it.
| bityard wrote:
| From reading the headline, I was hopeful that this would be one
| of my most desired apps that doesn't exist yet: a browser that
| renders pages in Reader Mode, but all the time.
|
| Unfortunately this is just a regular browser with "minimal" only
| meaning practically no UI.
| rahoulb wrote:
| Safari has an option for this (both mobile and desktop). And
| you can switch it on/off per site.
| aliqot wrote:
| I want that so bad. I'd even take a plugin that could make it a
| hard setting that you turn on for the day.
| incanus77 wrote:
| I am a longtime very "Mac person" and don't like non-Cocoa /
| standard Mac UI apps, but I used Min for a long while. I went
| back to Safari once Cloud Tabs stabilized, but Min is just
| incredibly lean, fast, and reliable. Big fan -- and I may yet go
| back!
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-12-14 23:01 UTC)