[HN Gopher] Female spies of MI6
___________________________________________________________________
Female spies of MI6
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 201 points
Date : 2022-12-14 13:06 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ft.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ft.com)
| [deleted]
| bannedbybros wrote:
| More female sociopaths!
| heywherelogingo wrote:
| Targets based on superficial characteristics for sub-optimal
| outcomes. Intelligence services.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| How does spying by humans/agents even work these days? I can't
| imagine a british agent going around spying in North korea, China
| or even Russia, much less a woman. Cause if you get caught you
| are going to get tortured into oblivion. Hence most of these
| 'spies' are on a diplomatic visa to prevent getting
| disappeared/tortured and therefore most of their movements are
| easily tracked. Spying as an agent is probably the worst job that
| exists that I can't imagine anyone with a family would do it
| unless they are forced into it. And society rarely forces women
| into such hazardous situations. From my experience, people who
| become spies aren't women with education from elite colleges who
| raise families, they are much more likelier to be prisoners on a
| deal or drug smugglers or other people with nothing much to lose.
| mhoad wrote:
| Here are two very in-depth interviews with two recently retired
| individuals who get into a lot of the mechanics of how that
| works in reality.
|
| Doug London https://youtu.be/aV9HdJtPbZA
|
| Jim Lawler https://youtu.be/AFnfTDbcPOA
| euroderf wrote:
| Pervasive facial recog like in the PRC probably makes a lot of
| espionage ops terribly more difficult. I'd like to read about
| how though.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| These Spies "Run Agents": recruit, train, hand hold, interview,
| debrief and analyse, pay/bribe and present the information from
| the traitors, drug smugglers, or other people with nothing much
| to lose.
|
| I'm sure there may be dangerous jobs but these days much of
| that can be done from friendly countries or even the office.
|
| [edit] list of roles from MI6 site:
| https://www.sis.gov.uk/intelligence-officers.html
| frontman1988 wrote:
| How does the first step of recruiting the agents/local
| traitors happen? Most of the official spies who are on
| diplomatic visa are tracked 24x7 in countries like
| China/NK/Russia.
| [deleted]
| newsclues wrote:
| Identify Targets: access to intel + exploitability
|
| Then build a relationship with them.
| drakonka wrote:
| I recently learned about a man who was imprisoned for spying
| for Russia in my country. He was an engineer with his own
| limited company who contracted for local car manufacturers and
| apparently passed on sensitive information from his clients to
| a Russian contact. I believe he was born in this country and
| "recruited" locally.
| photoGrant wrote:
| What exactly is your experience? This just seems so innocently
| naive about how spies actually work
| robofanatic wrote:
| > What exactly is your experience?
|
| watching spy documentaries/movies on netflix, youtube
| dijit wrote:
| The people who know anything about spies are not going to
| reply to a thread such as this.
|
| I was nearly involved with SIS in some capacity and the
| amount of background probing was enough to make me scared for
| ever being closer than I have to be.
|
| I can say with confidence that if you've been in the
| apparatus then you wouldn't even _want_ to say anything.
| There 's a lot of brainwashing that happens too (you could
| see the outcome of the Snowden revelations for example) so
| people would be very defensive of the concept of giving out
| info they have and extremely likely to be motivated in
| hunting down "leakers".
| klyrs wrote:
| > I can't imagine a british agent going around spying in North
| korea, China or even Russia, much less a woman.
|
| That's funny, isn't it? Your prejudice here is very much the
| norm, which is why not all British spies look like Daniel
| Craig.
| elefanten wrote:
| > Cause if you get caught you are going to get tortured into
| oblivion.
|
| Was this not always a risk of that trade? Despite your gut
| level reaction, there are plenty of foreigners in those
| countries, via various channels and means -- not just
| diplomatic.
|
| Besides, why would a British agent have to appear
| stereotypically British? Why would they have to declare/present
| themselves as British? Wouldn't faking all these things be core
| competencies of the trade?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| carreau wrote:
| > These photographs do not contain individuals working in British
| intelligence or document MI6 equipment and locations
|
| Or so they want you to believe...
| thefounder wrote:
| >> When her children were teenagers, Rebecca decided to tell them
| that she was a spy. "They were super sensible, and I judged the
| information wasn't going to be a burden for them, that they
| wouldn't tell everybody."
|
| Is Rebecca still working there?
| bell-cot wrote:
| > While I was writing this piece, Rebecca retired from MI6.
| yencabulator wrote:
| Earlier in the article:
|
| > [...] working at MI6 is a distinctly strange experience. You
| cannot tell anyone _beyond close family_ who your employer is,
| and even they are not allowed to know anything about your day-
| to-day activities.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Yeah... not a good idea. That's the type of info you _might_
| divulge on your deathbed to adult children. Absolutely insane
| to tell teens while still working there.
| martopix wrote:
| How do you know what the rules are? How do you know what the
| teenagers in questions were like? I find these comments
| astonishing. We literally know nothing about them, the
| family, "Rebecca" herself, her job, the rules behind it; how
| can anyone speak with such confidence and think they know
| better than her and her bosses?
| thatcat wrote:
| Yea like your kids are stupid and can't tell what's going on
| lol
| s5300 wrote:
| Between a duty to family & country, which should truly come
| first in our short lives?
|
| Had her children ever accidentally found out at near _any_
| time in their lives, they may have never been able to trust
| their mother again - severing what arguably should be one of
| the strongest bonds one can have.
|
| Would you (rhetorically) find it reasonable that she, or
| anybody with children, is required to live with that thought
| in the back of their mind? In an occupation she's otherwise
| taken an oath (highly presumably) to devote her allegiance
| to?
|
| I'm not sure. It definitely seems like a question with a hard
| answer.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "they may have never been able to trust their mother again"
|
| That's a real stretch. Anyone with the maturity to
| understand that information should also have the maturity
| to delineate between lies for inconsequential things in the
| sake of national security vs personal lies affecting their
| lives.
|
| "Between a duty to family & country,"
|
| The logic goes that duties to country are inclusive of
| duties to family because without a stable country your
| family is less protected. That's what they say. Whether you
| agree or not is another matter. Not agreeing means that job
| likely wasn't for you anyways.
| thefounder wrote:
| Lol. It's supposed that one of them (i.e the mother) should
| behave like and adult and own it. Of course nobody forced
| her to choose serving her country but I believe in this
| case she failed both her duty to family & country.
|
| It's just proof that not all the people are up for this
| job.
|
| I remeber when my brother spilled the beans on a "family
| secret" to some close family friends in front of my
| mother...good that was just a silly thing. Now imagine that
| could get her fired or worse, cause someone's death.
|
| I wonder if she(or the remaining parent) would find it
| sensible to share that as well with the children.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > I believe in this case she failed both her duty to
| family & country.
|
| So you likely never had to handle top secret information
| and couldn't spy his way out of a paper bag, has just
| declared that one of the most successful spies is a
| failure.
|
| So typical.
| etrevino wrote:
| > Lol. It's supposed that one of them (i.e the mother)
| should behave like and adult and own it. Of course nobody
| forced her to choose serving her country but I believe in
| this case she failed both her duty to family & country.
|
| > It's just proof that not all the people are up for this
| job.
|
| It's understood that family members will know to some
| extent. If nothing else, this is so that they know to be
| wary of security threats many people would otherwise
| ignore. She's almost certainly not sharing details of
| operations, she's instead sharing with her daughters why
| things are the way they are in their household.
|
| I've said in other comments, this is another world and
| the concerns here are different. It's not like it is in
| the movies.
|
| Again, that family members will know to some extent is
| understood, which is why she felt comfortable admitting
| it in the interview, otherwise she would have lost her
| job and the article would have been kiboshed by the
| security services.
| etrevino wrote:
| I replied to the parent comment above, but it's worth
| replying to this. The kids might not know what mom did
| before this, but the way the mother operates was long ago
| normalized for them. The mother probably never lied-- they
| usually don't-- she probably just never shared. What the
| mother does is a job that isn't necessarily in conflict
| with her love for her children. People have to balance the
| effort they put into their job (as opposed to the effort
| they put into their children) all the time. She still gets
| to make that choice, at least in the US and the UK (as is
| the case here). That choice may cost her her job, but
| that's true of any job.
|
| This is all to say, it's highly doubtful that this had the
| impact to their relationship that you're imagining here.
| etrevino wrote:
| I can speak as someone who was in the same situation as the
| teens. This is about the time that the kids begin to cotton
| on to the fact that things aren't quite right. Really, this
| is the point at which the parent has to start lying (as
| opposed to saying something like "oh I work for the
| government") or trust to their children's discretion. The
| kids' entire raising up to this point has normalized strong
| patriotism and a parents' inconsistent presence as a result
| of that patriotism. This likely came as no real shock to
| them.
|
| This is a different world and I didn't realize how different
| until I went away to college.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Other commenters hwre seem to think that everyone else in
| the family is an idiot and will never catch on, despite
| living together for decades.
|
| This will lead to family suspecting their mother of
| cheating or crime.n
| etrevino wrote:
| Right. Lot of judgments made without considering how this
| might work long term in the real world.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "This will lead to family suspecting their mother of
| cheating or crime."
|
| Generally not with the proper cover story. Stuff like
| working as a civilian purchasing agent for the military
| or other government agency provides an element of truth
| and can be strongly consistent with the realities of the
| true job. Travel for purchasing deals vs espionage, etc
| look the same for the family. Even better is if they
| actually are involved with the purchasing deals since it
| makes for a more solid cover.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| When I was a kid, there was a guy at our church who had
| spent some years at a South American embassy and was
| vaguely in the defense industry. There were little bits
| of his story that all had us suspecting he likely did
| cloak and dagger stuff for the CIA in reality, but no
| point in really asking him for the truth.
| morrbo wrote:
| with all due respect, youve now just basically told an
| entire anonymous message board that someone in your family
| is/was related to the security services. This is basically
| the example why you dont tell people this stuff. The entire
| article reeks of bs...everyone who has even remotely been
| involved in any of this knows exactly what youre meant to
| say if anyone asks you...and its sure as shit not "ok tell
| everyone x, except if theyre from the financial times, then
| just be honest" lol
| etrevino wrote:
| That's old and "expired" data from over thirty years ago
| and the family member I'm discussing is open about it,
| now. What needs to stay quiet (in this instance) is
| operational details, not that this person did the work.
| So your point doesn't really stand. I felt it was useful
| information and it was information that was safe for me
| to share, so I did.
|
| The Financial Times article is, of course, intended to
| promote the service to women and it really doesn't hide
| that fact. You can bet that MI6 reviewed the article
| before it went to publication and everything in there was
| vetted a thousand times. It wouldn't shock me if small,
| fake biographical details were added into the article to
| obscure who these people really are. We don't know. The
| fact is, though, that since this piece is probably meant
| to advertise the service and-- given where it was
| printed-- it's probably directed at Oxbridge women. That
| is, women who have more job mobility than most. MI6 wants
| women to know that they won't be viewed as honey pots and
| that they can have a family. So the article is probably
| going to be an accurate representation at some level:
| since these particular women _can_ leave if they want to,
| you don 't want to misrepresent what they're getting into
| if you intend to keep them.
| jll29 wrote:
| In the UK, the government has a firm grip on the media,
| and that is enshrined by law; that's why The Guardian
| broke the Snowden story from their U.S. office, where
| freedom of speech is (more) protected. The author is a
| former security correspondent, and was perhaps chosen as
| someone known and trusted.
|
| The article is a recruiting piece targeting well-educated
| females; but the same (Oxbridge) females can earn six
| digits in finance and stay safe, instead of earning 22k
| and getting shot in Kandahar or stabbed in Najaf. One
| wonders if that combination of compensation and dangerous
| job spec attracts reckless or idealists personalities.
|
| Anyone interested in the history of the British SIS can
| be referred to K. Jefferey's (2010) "MI6: The History of
| the Secret Intelligence Service 1909-1949" (London:
| Bloomsbury), which is detailed but of course suffers from
| selection bias due to the nature of the topic and the
| fact that the book was commissioned (if I recall
| correctly) by the organization it describes.
| [deleted]
| mhoad wrote:
| I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but it's actually
| incredibly common and even the norm for most members to tell
| their children before adulthood.
| twic wrote:
| I think there's a lot of misunderstanding here.
|
| A key thing to appreciate is that the women in this article,
| including Rebecca, _are not spies_. They are civil servants
| [1] working in a very sensitive area of government. None of
| them are undercover, or sneaking into Russian bases. It 's a
| sensible precaution for them to keep quiet about what they
| do, but it's not like their ability to do their job depends
| on absolute secrecy.
|
| By way of comparison, the US equivalent of Rebecca, who is
| the deputy to the chief of the service, would be the deputy
| director of the CIA. The identity of that person is not only
| public, he has a wikipedia page [2]!
|
| [1] Well, diplomatic servants, but that's basically an
| alternative flavour of civil servant that exists for
| historical reasons
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_S._Cohen_(attorney)
| etrevino wrote:
| I think that just depends on your definition of spy. If
| you're thinking, say, Americans being undercover or
| sneaking onto bases (instead of using local assets to do
| it) then it would probably fall under the Special
| Activities Center, which is a subset of the CIA.
|
| While you're right that these folks aren't undercover in
| the sense that their identities are known, that those
| identities are linked to an intelligence gathering agency
| is _not_ known. A lot does happen out in the open and it
| always has. Being a member of the diplomatic service gives
| them protection when they 're operating in a foreign
| country. You operate out of an embassy and if you're
| arrested they usually trade you back to your home country,
| because diplomatic immunity.
| munificent wrote:
| The definition of "spy" that I know is that they are people
| who cultivate relationships with "agents" or "assets":
| people who have access to important secret information and
| are willing to share it.
|
| Most spies don't go into forbidden places and physically
| dig up secrets themselves. It's infinitely easier to get to
| know someone who already knows those secrets and persuade
| them to tell.
| sensitivefrost wrote:
| Literally two paragraphs down it says she has since retired
| from MI6.
| WFHRenaissance wrote:
| Don't Tell Everyone You're A Spy Challenge: Difficulty
| IMPOSSIBLE
| winReInstall wrote:
| Well, a women is treated equally only in the west, so per
| definition they can only spy as not honeytrap in the western
| society block. Everywhere else, its gonna be traditional.
| bannedbybros wrote:
| yazzku wrote:
| "Treated equally", especially when it comes to things like wage
| parity, is still a bit of a far cry in the West. Not that that
| subtracts from your point, but just pointing out. Treated
| 'better', for sure.
| magneticnorth wrote:
| >> per definition they can only spy as not honeytrap in the
| western society block
|
| I find this a really odd statement, and certainly not something
| that follows "per definition"?
|
| For one thing, one point made in the article is that the
| sources a spy might want to cultivate are often women.
| Especially places where women are less respected, they might be
| privy to plenty of private conversations while on the arm of a
| powerful man, and might be amenable to talking to another woman
| about it.
|
| And it's certainly not the case that women are only viewed
| "traditionally" outside western society - China, India, and
| many other countries have plenty of female doctors, scientists,
| office workers, etc.
| sicp-enjoyer wrote:
| The propoganda vibes are pretty high for me.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| Yeah this feels like a submarine article
| implements wrote:
| It's certainly a PR piece - I wondered what the purpose was
| beyond the obvious and naive 'getting more women into
| Intelligence'?
|
| Elsewhere there's been news stories about British MPs
| complaining that the security and intelligence services have
| too high a media profile ... so perhaps there's some 'push
| and pull' going on behind the scenes.
| fit2rule wrote:
| alwayseasy wrote:
| Its pretty explicit PR when the journalist explains meeting
| people from the SIS right in the first sentence :)
| heywherelogingo wrote:
| The UK is Russia but with a good PR department. MI6 is FSB with
| sprinkles.
| tfsh wrote:
| In what sense is the UK like Russia?
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| https://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pa.
| ..
|
| > _The lower down the echelon, the nearer the armies of the
| world came to standardizing psychological warfare
| organization. They did this for the same reason that they all
| organize into regiments instead of centuries, cohorts, or
| tribes. Modern war is a self-standardizing process if the
| enemy experience is to be copied, enemy techniques improved,
| allied assistance accepted, and military practice kept up to
| world standards. Psychological warfare units needed printing
| and radio sections; to service these sections they all needed
| intelligence and analysis offices; to distribute their
| materials they all needed agents and liaison. Black
| propaganda organization varied more than did white, but it
| was amazing to Americans, uncovering Japanese subversive-
| operations units, to see how much the Japanese organization
| resembled their own._
| eternalban wrote:
| FT just raising their skirt a bit, showing ankles. The
| relationship between international finance and intelligence
| goes back to Napoleonic wars.
| aaron695 wrote:
| snotrockets wrote:
| Equality is when people of all gender practice their duty to
| avoid serving in the military or adjacent agencies.
| bigie35 wrote:
| I kinda chcuckle a little reading this knowing without a doubt,
| someone's job at these clandestine operations is sliding into
| someone's DMs, hoping for a bite.
| ngoilapites wrote:
| Uninteresting and hiding many valuable layers of their amazing
| personalities.
| pugworthy wrote:
| I would not be too surprised if some took offense to the imagery,
| especially of the svelte woman in the elevator with her one piece
| black outfit and shades. Too much Hollywood/Black Widow.
|
| For me, I'd recommend watching "The Night Manager" some time.
| Specifically, Olivia Colman's role as Angela Burr. Hugh Laurie
| and Tom Hiddleston certainly broke a few preconceptions for me,
| but she was the one I thought deserved some accolades for her
| character and how she portrayed it.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Wait what - seriously the head of equipment is named Q ... _after
| the Bond Character_!
|
| I mean that's either the greatest bit of journalist pranking I
| have read all year or it's true and, well, a bit naff.
| HPsquared wrote:
| See also Q-ships, Q-cars, etc.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship
| largbae wrote:
| I think it was just short for Quartermaster so it might make
| sense aside from the Bond reference.
| closewith wrote:
| Yeah, has to be the abbreviation for Quartermaster. Even the
| exasperation of the character in the movies is obviously
| based on the demeanour of every ageing CQMS in the British
| Army (he doesn't appear in the Fleming books, where there's
| only the Q Branch responsible for supply).
| PuffinBlue wrote:
| There is a little more nuance to it than you've stated
| here.
|
| A Quartermaster in the British Army is generally a
| commissioned officer, usually nowadays a Late Entry Officer
| (a soldier who has achieved the rank of at least Staff
| Sergeant I think, and then received a commission).
| Quartermasters are most often the rank of Major, but
| sometimes I've known them to be Lt Col (Pirbright Army
| Training Centre has a Lt Col for Quartermaster when I was
| there).
|
| A Quartermaster is generally in charge of G4 (or J4 in the
| modern parlance) which is the Logistics staff branch[0].
|
| CQMS (Company Quartermaster Sergeant) is universally a Non-
| commissioned Officer role. I have only ever seen CQMS of
| Warrant Officer Class 2 rank. CQMS are responsible for the
| G4 branch in a company or squadron sized unit.
|
| At a Regimental level you'll often also have an RQMS,
| universally Warrant Officer Class 1 in my experience but
| sometimes filled temporarily by a senior WO2. That role was
| always a bit of a mystery to me, but generally seemed to
| keep the CQMS's in check and filter a lot of the faff from
| the QM.
|
| Getting to the point - names...
|
| You'd never call the Quartermaster Q. I'm not sure what
| would have happened if you did, but I imagine it wouldn't
| have been pleasant.
|
| You'd always call the CQMS Q, especially if you were
| Commissioned or SSgt or above. A bold Sgt would get away
| with it if followed up with a swift sir/ma'am.
|
| The RQMS was RQ, or sir/ma'am to anyone junior.
|
| Add to the mix is the tradition of using "Salutation
| Surname" (i.e. Mr Brown, Mrs Red) to all Warrant Officers
| and you have a heady mix of options.
|
| Edging closer to the point - the moniker Q in the
| books/movie would likely have come about from the
| abbreviation of CQMS. Which makes sense as Bond, as a
| 'front line' individual, would almost never actually see
| the actual Quartermaster, but would interact with his
| unit's CQMS who would be the one dealing with issuing and
| accounting for kit.
|
| I believe Bond also had the rank of Commander. It would be
| customary for that rank to address a CQMS as Q, but never a
| Quartermaster with that letter.
|
| [0]http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0005.html
| closewith wrote:
| This isn't nuance - none of it is relevant.
|
| Q in the movies (the only place he originally appeared)
| is obviously based on a CQMS someone knew and the Q
| branch in the books is almost certainly based on the
| abbreviation Q for the word Quartermaster in the
| Quartermaster's Stores.
| j-bos wrote:
| Wasn't the Bond Q named after the real Q?
| LilBytes wrote:
| Based on this article, Bond Q came first.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Interesting. Fleming actually worked for Naval
| Intelligence, I always thought he took those terms from
| there. The 'M' allegedly came from his mom.
| arethuza wrote:
| His elder brother Peter's ideas around "irregular
| warfare" influenced Colin Gubbins who led SOE:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fleming_(writer)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Gubbins
| chimprich wrote:
| According to my fallible memory and the probably more
| reliable wiki article [0] Q was based on Charles Fraser
| Smith, who came up with "Q devices". So this might be a
| feedback loop between art and life. Assuming that "Q"
| really is called "Q" internally, and that's not just
| publicity / misdirection...
|
| I can recommend CFS's book "The Secret War of Charles
| Fraser-Smith" about his wartime experiences in sourcing
| and creating items for clandestine operations. Likely of
| interest to many HN readers.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_(James_Bond)
| swores wrote:
| Presumably the M name was inspired by C, the nickname
| given to the mi6 chief in real life.
|
| The C comes from that being what the first chief of mi6
| used to sign, his surname was Smith-Cumming.
| Interestingly, he also famously said, after it was
| discovered that human semen works well as invisible ink,
| that "Every man his own stylo" - rather appropriate for a
| man named Cumming.
|
| edit: wiki says that staff under him used that phrase,
| I'm not 100% sure he coined it or not.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfield_Smith-Cumming
| jacquesm wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_St._Croix_Fleming
|
| "Eve Fleming's nickname from her son Ian was M and Ian
| may have used his relationship with her as model for M,
| fictional head of Head of the Secret Intelligence Service
| and James Bond's boss."
|
| That doesn't make it true, but it does seem to have some
| evidence.
| ZseeBrz wrote:
| There's a very good book in French on the same topic (Espionnes
| by Dalila Kerchouche). The author interviewed several women in
| the various FR services (DGSE, DGSI, etc.) in various leadership
| and non-leadership positions. If you can read French, you will
| find it very interesting. It's both a cultural trip and partial
| demystification of the trade.
| foobarian wrote:
| On that note just wanted to also plug the fantastic French spy
| show "The Bureau" [1]. It's fiction but loved the characters
| and the scheming, and more high level, a glimpse into the
| French flavor of the CIA/MI6 verticals.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bureau_(TV_series)
| gadders wrote:
| Gerard De La Villier is good as well. Part of his novels are
| salacious, but the political plots are pretty convincing:
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/magazine/gerard-de-
| villie...
|
| I think there are 6 books available in English.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/Espionnes-Doubles-exclusive-services-...
| low_tech_punk wrote:
| I'm sure she is among us in the comments :)
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.vn/kHOjj
| [deleted]
| jcampbell1 wrote:
| I'm curious why this article was authorized. It seems they
| decided it would help with recruiting more than it hurts by
| giving away the element of surprise.
| draebek wrote:
| Do I correctly understand by your comment that you think there
| was a foreign intelligence service that did not already know
| MI6 employed female agents?
| jcampbell1 wrote:
| I don't think foreign intelligence services knew MI6
| considered female agents more effective due to it being less
| expected. I don't think the public knew that MI6 likes to
| recruit outside the Oxford types. I think MI6 very much
| planned this article. Hope that clarifies my position.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Proposed Adage: "Cognitus' Law of Headlines" ("cognitus" from
| Latin for known, recognized, acknowledged -
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cognitus#Latin )
|
| Similar to Betteridge's law of headlines (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
| ), this proposed adage states:
|
| "Any time that something is referred to as 'Secret' in a
| headline, it is not actually secret at all."
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| > For the first time ever, SIS officers reveal why women often
| make the best spies for our times
|
| I was unable to find where this was answered in the article. It
| also reads like the author relied mostly on novels, movies, and
| such instead on a the interview.
|
| Women spies have been around just as much, if not longer -
| Virginia Hall, Mata Hari, Jane Whorwood, Elizabeth Van Lew, Anne
| Dawson, Violette Szabo. Going even further back consider the
| Japanese kunoichi (sp?), Empress Wei of China had a whole cadre
| of female spies. There are plenty of evidence of female spies in
| Ancient Greece, and in the Roman empire. There are Biblical
| stories of female spies.
|
| Indeed there are novels & movies that depict female spies in a
| sexual way (and just as many depicting men as simple fighting
| machines) but pretending that women where not allowed to be spies
| is a disservice to women.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Usually fluff articles like this are a prelude to a recruiting
| push. MI6 advertises in the Economist and I think the FT.
| akomtu wrote:
| I think it's a prelude to restarting the Bond series with a
| female character.
| jackweirdy wrote:
| Barbara Broccoli ruled that out recently
| martopix wrote:
| > I was unable to find where this was answered in the article.
|
| For example here it makes an explicit point:
|
| "The UK's main adversaries today -- China, Russia, Iran and
| North Korea -- are repressive societies with few women in
| positions of power. For the female spy, this weakness in the
| enemy is exploitable. Precisely because they are so likely to
| be overlooked, women have the potential to be the best spies of
| all."
|
| > pretending that women where not allowed to be spies is a
| disservice to women.
|
| Where does it say they were not allowed? Mata Hari is
| explicitly discussed in the article. A lot of examples in MI6
| itself are made, but the article talks at length about how
| their careers were more difficult.
|
| > It also reads like the author relied mostly on novels,
| movies, and such instead on a the interview.
|
| I think the article is amazing. It literally interviewed three
| of the top british spies. How can you say that? And the last
| paragraph is all about all the things that the author could not
| cover.
| somebody78978 wrote:
| > Where does it say they were not allowed?
|
| The first couple of paragraphs talk ad nauseum about how hard
| it was for women to become spies.
| martopix wrote:
| "it is difficult" and "it is not allowed" are two different
| things.
| the_af wrote:
| > _" The UK's main adversaries today -- China, Russia, Iran
| and North Korea -- are repressive societies with few women in
| positions of power."_
|
| (I know this is from TFA, not written by you)
|
| At least Russia and North Korea have women in positions of
| power, so it seems disingenuous to lump them together with
| Iran, at the very least. I'm unsure about China _now_ , but
| there used to be very influential Chinese women.
|
| Also, Russia mastered the art of using women in intelligence
| (and sure, honeytraps), particularly because the West also
| tends to overlook them. Or are we going to pretend it's only
| our enemies that do this, as if the battle for equality was
| already won on our side?
| martopix wrote:
| Fair point, but in defence of the author, I think there's a
| huge difference between having some women in positions of
| power and the attitude that people have towards women in
| daily life. I can totally imagine a society in which
| certain women from privileged background can rise to power
| (if, regarding north korea, you're talking about Kim Jong
| Un's sister, that's a great example), and yet the
| assumption most people have when they meet a woman is
| definitely not that she is someone powerful or to be wary
| of.
|
| Also, what spies have is not 'power'. I wonder for example
| how many women there are in the high ranks of the army,
| even for the countries you listed and many others.
| the_af wrote:
| Yes, I was thinking of Kim Jong-un's sister.
|
| Agreed that spies do not have "power" in that sense; I
| was just echoing the words of TFA and showing
| counterexamples.
|
| Most armies of the world are sexist in any case, why
| single out the current adversaries of the West? Western
| armies are traditionally sexist as well. Yes, _now_ there
| are _some_ high ranking officers and even generals in
| _some_ of the most modern Western armies -- meaning the
| general rule is still that sexism is rampant.
|
| > _yet the assumption most people have when they meet a
| woman is definitely not that she is someone powerful or
| to be wary of_
|
| Yes, but this seems to be the rule in many countries
| which are traditionally aligned with the West.
| elteto wrote:
| NK? Where do you see women represented in positions of
| power? Honest question.
|
| Kim Il Sung (or his son? memory is hazy) had a special all-
| female army unit that was his literal harem. I don't think
| they value women very much, outside perhaps of nepotism.
| the_af wrote:
| Kim Yo-jong, Kim Jong-un's sister, is a woman in power in
| North Korea [1] (yes, probably because she is his sister,
| but she's no figurehead, and how else does one rise to
| power in North Korea anyway?) and is deemed by some
| analysts as a possible successor to her brother.
|
| This doesn't make it a rule, but it shows there are women
| with power in North Korea. Because it's such an opaque
| country to outside observers, who knows how many more are
| there? Keep in mind the world didn't even know of her
| existence until relatively recently (about 2014).
|
| I don't think something like this -- a woman being
| considered to run the country -- would be even thinkable
| in Iran.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Yo-jong
| conviencefee999 wrote:
| Ironically there's a female only division in North
| Korea's army though it's claimed that they are comfort
| woman from South Korean sources that doesn't really seem
| accurate. Especially considering the statements made
| about being solely for Kim Jong Un and the fact that the
| same sources also go on to state how he exclusively only
| dates European models, which is also ironic when you
| consider he seems to be in love with his with who is also
| Korean. In which she is obese so it's hard to consider
| him choosing her for her appearance.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| I believe the term "comfort women" only refers to the
| women forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese Imperial
| Army, the term is a direct translation of a Japanese
| word.
|
| It's possible North Korea had a division made up of
| former comfort womem at some point, but I've never heard
| of it and the youngest members left would be in their
| 80's now.
| medo-bear wrote:
| china has more women in positions of political representation
| than the us
| Nomentatus wrote:
| Voters who are told how to vote, sure. But certainly not
| power:
|
| No promotions for women at China's party congress? Mimi Lau
| Published: 2:08pm, 10 Oct, 2022
| https://www.scmp.com/news/article/3195409/no-promotions-
| wome...
|
| Why are women unlikely to win promotion race at China's
| Communist Party congress? Female cadres tend to rise
| through gender pathways in areas such as education and
| civil affairs, and in mass organisations But they're rarely
| assigned to more high-profile portfolios such as economics,
| finance, industry and technology Mimi Lau Published:
| 11:00pm, 2 Oct, 2022 https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politi
| cs/article/3194570/why...
| Georgelemental wrote:
| China has a lot of figureheads and rubber stamp officials.
| For example, their >1K legislature is a rubber stamp no
| real de facto power. So the female representation in de
| jure leadership might not match the female representation
| in actual leadership.
| medo-bear wrote:
| im not talking about merits of chinese political system.
| but the thesis that communist-party-ruled societies are
| more favoured toward men than it is the case in most
| western governments is false. also according to
| statistics rwanda and cuba are world leaders in terms of
| % women holding office
| signatoremo wrote:
| Huh? This is just false. What is the basis for your
| opinion?
|
| There is no woman in the 24-member Politburo, the highest
| body of Chinese leadership. None. It had a single woman
| in the last cycle 2017-2022. The Standing committee, the
| top echelon with seven members has never had a woman as
| member. Of 205 members of the Central Committee, only 5%
| are women.
|
| https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3196848/
| abs...
| nervousvarun wrote:
| By % of total offices or just raw total? China has over 4X
| the population of the US. Not to even mention different
| countries have different #s of political offices.
|
| Just seems like a difficult comparison to make.
| medo-bear wrote:
| by % of total offices
|
| > Just seems like a difficult comparison to make
|
| >> China, Russia, Iran and North Korea -- are repressive
| societies with few women in positions of power
|
| but generalizations like this are pretty easy
| icare_1er wrote:
| "> For the first time ever, SIS officers reveal why women often
| make the best spies for our times"
|
| --> If that were true, should those spies be paid more than
| their not-as-good male counterparts ? And if yes, should the
| gap-salary which would follow, be then gapped by hiring more
| men as top spy positions despite their lower performances ?
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| But women still make up less than 20-30% of operations agents
| in most western agencies. Only in the past decade has new
| recruits in MI6 and the CIA got to 40% women.
| oxfeed65261 wrote:
| Can you point me to this data?
| petsormeat wrote:
| > why women often make the best spies for our times
|
| When I worked as a secretary, I was amazed at how unguarded men
| are in front of women in the workplace, particularly those of us
| in lower status roles. They seemed to think we had no capacity
| for thought or language, and were safe background decor for any
| conversation. I really worry that foreign service clerical staff
| are treated appropriately.
| thatcat wrote:
| They were probably just flexing and thought they were
| impressing you or something.
| belfalas wrote:
| "Admins run the world, never make them angry." :)
| marliechiller wrote:
| I found this extends to lower status roles in general - I have
| also worked as a secretary as a male and found the same thing
| aliqot wrote:
| Everyone talks to the barber.
| seanhunter wrote:
| I used to work in financial services as a quant. Friend of
| mine told me about when they were doing a huge arb in the
| metals markets they needed to do a trade where they took
| physical delivery of a very very very substantial amount of
| gold. Like think super villain in a movie doing a heist
| type of levels. So naturally the team who knew what was
| going down was kept super small and the details were kept
| really tight. Morning of the trade my friend goes to get
| his hair cut. Barber says to him "so I hear you guys took
| delivery of a bunch of gold". My friends chin hit the
| floor.
|
| Turns out one of the security guards came to get his hair
| cut and was moaning about how tired his arms were from
| unloading the vans and putting it all in the vault.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Something something weakest link.
| PenguinCoder wrote:
| Not me. I just want them to cut my hair. No talking, just
| cut.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| Obligatory "I'm sure you're fun at parties". Honestly
| though why would anyone have this attitude? It seems like
| having a conversation with someone while getting your
| hair cut has zero downside, and the guaranteed upside
| both of you being a little more entertained. Possible
| upsides are actually getting into a meaningful
| conversation or stumbling on a new opportunity. Seems
| like a win-win to me.
| mym1990 wrote:
| Not everyone wants to be entertained 100% of the time. It
| feels weird to assume everyone should be a talkative
| person all the time. At the end of the day barbers are
| still doing a technical job, some of them probably would
| prefer to focus on the work as well. How do you feel when
| you are focused on something and someone is asking you
| pedantic questions?
| northwest65 wrote:
| As somebody with that attitude, it's because I find it
| quite zen just to relax and be groomed by a professional.
| I won't shut down conversation, but I won't initiate it
| either.
|
| The other thing is that decades of motorcycling without
| ear plugs has rooted my hearing, so talking to people
| with thick accents (I'd say 50% of hairdressers here are
| immigrants) can't be tiring, which is the opposite of why
| I actually enjoy getting my hair cut. There's a nice
| Korean lady I sometimes see who chats away merrily, but I
| feel like an arsehole having to ask her to repeat herself
| the whole time.
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _" rooted"_
|
| Aussie?
|
| In any case, you may not have good hearing, but at least
| you have good hair!
| harry8 wrote:
| Gotta love the way australians think being polite and
| couth is achieved by using another word for f&^k that
| literally means f^&k.
|
| "The gearbox is totally f&^ked! Oh, sorry Cheryl, didn't
| see you there. I mean it's rooted."
| phone8675309 wrote:
| Sitting at the barber's getting my hair cut is one of
| only a handful of times that it feels like I'm spending
| time just for me. So I'd like to keep that time for me
| and let my brain wander.
| blep_ wrote:
| Because I... don't like talking to people? It's not
| entertaining to me, it's excruciating.
| dmix wrote:
| I don't talk to cab drivers either.
|
| My girlfriend always finds a way to start conversations
| with ever driver but I rarely ever do unless I'm in some
| peppy mood.
|
| The pressure to talk to barbers seems much higher though.
| GlacierFox wrote:
| Obligatory "You must be the person that doesn't stop
| talking to breathe at parties." Honestly though, some
| people just don't like nattering away and would rather
| just sit and relax for a few minutes.
| sudomatic wrote:
| adoleskhou de koureos erotesantos auton, "pos se keiro;"
| "siopon," ephe.
|
| When a talkative barber asked him [Archelaus, king of
| Macedonia], 'How should I cut your hair?' he said, 'In
| silence!'
|
| -- Plutarch
| trenning wrote:
| I worked as a security guard in various locations and same
| thing, people would speak unfiltered and candid around me to
| others.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| > _In the past, women have been overlooked, relegated to
| secretarial roles or, before the SIS era, deployed as
| "honeytraps" to ensnare or blackmail enemies_
|
| Amusing of MI6 to claim they no longer use honeytraps.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| They still are, but they were in the past, too.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| "I used to do drugs. I mean, I still do, but I used to, too."
|
| -Mitch Hedberg
| gadders wrote:
| I bet a bunch are male as well now.
| fit2rule wrote:
| stevenwoo wrote:
| Scotland Yard has been doing that for decades.
| https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/24/scotland-yard-
| blo...
| [deleted]
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| One of the most depressing things in my tech worker life is
| witnessing how sex starved the average FAANG caliber engineer
| is.
|
| The way that they got info about twitters political bias
| through project veritas was to... Get a cute looking girl to
| ask the guy nicely...
|
| How many people who are smart and well connected enough to end
| up being watched by three letter agencies (which is most likely
| more of HN userbase than they would like to admit) have only
| experienced relationships, love, or lust that was paid for by
| some agent in Langley? My guess is that this happens far more
| than we would care to admit.
|
| Heck there are memes about this kind of thing:
| https://postimg.cc/62TPMBfN
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-12-14 23:01 UTC)