[HN Gopher] The silent struggles of workers with ADHD
___________________________________________________________________
The silent struggles of workers with ADHD
Author : rntn
Score : 226 points
Date : 2022-12-12 18:32 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| JackAndJack wrote:
| pmarreck wrote:
| Not only did I have ADHD for the first 38 years of my life
| without being diagnosed, I also had sleep apnea without being
| diagnosed until around the same time. The challenges from both of
| these multiply each other. Think oversleeping, late to meetings,
| difficulty staying organized and focused, being irresistibly
| attracted to the interesting and hard problems but not the
| necessary and boring ones.
|
| I tested high-IQ, I did amazing in secondary school, but college
| and the workforce have been rough. I don't usually stay at a job
| for more than 2-4 years before the executive functioning problems
| accumulate to a degree that results in termination, and I've been
| negative on myself my entire life, told I was lazy, told I was
| immature or a baby (I'm 50 years old!), etc. etc.
|
| I have a 17 month old son and I'm looking for steadier employment
| as I've been freelancing for years now (partly to get away from
| the inevitable judgment of the usual boss) but the pay is spotty.
| My partner is anxious about my future earning potential given we
| have a kid now (let's just say "this has impacted our
| relationship"), and I absolutely cannot stand the flakiness and
| the rejection and the constantly being measured by someone else's
| ruler that is part of job application (I had this problem
| whenever I dated, too). Years ago I noticed that I could not
| emotionally tolerate applying to more than 1 job a week because
| the rejections just withered me... "rejection sensitivity
| dysphoria" is a thing I apparently have. (I couldn't take more
| than 1 rejection a night from a woman when I was out and about as
| a single person, either... This might explain why I only found my
| partner at 39, and possibly why I was basically sexually addicted
| (sorry, "on and off again") to a prior partner prior to that
| despite that person being bad for me in numerous other capacities
| (those dopamine hits are everything!).)
|
| Do you think video gaming is simultaneously more appealing to
| this type but also makes it worse?
|
| And also, at what point is this more of an excuse than an
| explanation?
|
| Given that you should not generally disclose your health issues
| to bosses, how would you even find accommodating work (in, say,
| technology) with this "limitation"?
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I recently came across Tracy Marks' channel on YouTube [0].
|
| I've been programming for a long time, but I only got neuropsych
| testing about 10 years ago. I was unambiguously diagnosed with
| ADHD, and I've been on stimulants ever since.
|
| Despite all that personal experience, I still found that her ADHD
| videos connected a lot of dots for me. The videos also give some
| practical advice that's working well for me.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/@DrTraceyMarks
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| How do you get neuropsych testing and how does it differ from
| the normal testing for ADHD? I have been diagnosed multiple
| times but I always wonder if I really have it. I was on
| medication for a while but stopped taking it.
| alwillis wrote:
| Yeah, her videos are great and have been some of the clearest
| explanations I've seen on ADHD. Recommended.
| dgb23 wrote:
| Great resource. Straight to the point and well explained.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| ... And here I am, reading this instead of working on today's
| action items..
| cpsns wrote:
| I was diagnosed with it, but have found it almost impossible to
| get treatment for it in my province so it's still a huge daily
| struggle that never really lets up.
|
| It's really, really frustrating knowing help exists but I can't
| get it, be it therapy or medication. It actually makes me angry,
| I read stories of people whose lives have gotten so much better,
| but around every corner all I find are brick walls.
| itronitron wrote:
| This article is basically just one giant pharmaceutical
| advertisement. Consider this excerpt:
|
| _"I had a tough time grappling with the sorts of executive
| functioning that our world operates by, like being able to set up
| meetings, follow through with things, focus and be detail
| oriented," he says. His manager had pointed out these failings
| for months, which is why his termination was hardly shocking._
|
| Folks, learn how to use the tools that are available to you in
| order to schedule your workday. And if you are a manager then you
| have an obligation to train your staff in the use of tracking
| tools, which can be something as simple as post-it notes.
| wins32767 wrote:
| How effective would you be if someone stood behind you all day
| and interrupted you every minute or so on tasks that you found
| uninteresting? Would you perform at the same level as you would
| if someone wasn't interrupting you all the time? Would tools
| eliminate this problem or just mitigate it?
| itronitron wrote:
| You are describing a workplace that isn't suited for the type
| of work that needs to be performed. That is a management
| failure not a medical diagnosis.
| wins32767 wrote:
| ADD is like having that person interrupting you regularly.
| Saying "just use tools" isn't sufficient for everyone to
| get appropriate performance. Sometimes medication is the
| appropriate answer to banish the interruptions.
| acuozzo wrote:
| OP is not being literal.
|
| They're more-or-less stating that any "tools" would need to
| be set to such an extreme level of annoyance to have impact
| in the average case that they would undermine flow/"deep
| work".
| dmurdoch wrote:
| The fact that you didn't see what he was ACTUALLY referring
| to is actually funny in that it means you don't really
| understand what having an ADHD brain is actually like.
|
| He isn't saying this is literally the situation. He's
| referencing the fact that this is what its like having an
| ADHD brain. Your BRAIN is the one constantly interrupting
| you, all the time, bringing you focus away from what it
| SHOULD be focusing on and onto other random things, making
| doing consistent DEEP and thoughtful work really hard.
|
| The "workplace that isn't suited for the type of work" you
| refer to is just saying that my brain isn't suited to the
| type of work. Which like, yeah... I agree. Thats why I take
| medication.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Knowing something or knowing how to use something is not the
| same as using it. This is a classic struggle between those
| without ADHD and those with it. People without ADHD think it's
| just a training issue. It's really not. This is an especially
| difficult dynamic between non-adhd parents and adhd kids. Ask
| me how I know.
|
| In other words, I know how to use Outlook, and it can help. I
| know how to use Post-it notes. And it helps a little, but if I
| don't have a chance to write out a post-it note and put it in a
| prominent place (with the other 250 prominent post-it notes in
| a prominent place) it's going to get lost and/or I'm going to
| forget. This isn't just a "you're just not organized" problem.
| One of the bigger challenges is categorizing things.
|
| As you can see just in this post, my brain started sprawling
| out to all the issues that confront someone with ADHD and the
| scope started to spread and I started talking about other
| things besides your post-it notes idea.
|
| This isn't a training issue. Largely, the issue is with impulse
| control and a dysfunctional intrinsic rewards system. Here's a
| video with some actual useful advice for ADHD people and their
| managers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpB-B8BXk0
| kurikuri wrote:
| > Folks, learn how to use the tools that are available to you
| in order to schedule your workday. And if you are a manager
| then you have an obligation to train your staff in the use of
| tracking tools, which can be something as simple as post-it
| notes.
|
| Learning tools doesn't solve the problem, a person with ADHD
| can know about the tools and the thought simply won't enter
| their mind to keep up with the tool itself [1]. Many ADHD
| medications can be relatively cheaply had (generics are
| available for Adderall, Straterra, Ritalin, etc.), but the
| stigma associated with those medications are still quite high.
|
| [1]: https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0?t=71
| _some_guy wrote:
| As a father of 10 year old with horrible ADHD reading articles
| like these reminds me of the world she'll have to face on her
| own, and that's not a nice thought.
| lzaaz wrote:
| >If I struggle with timeliness, you're going to think I don't
| care about my job. If I forget something, you might just conclude
| I'm dumb.
|
| If you struggle with timeliness or forget about things frequently
| I don't care what the reason is, you are out anyway. If I needed
| things done on time, it wouldn't matter to me if you were late
| frequently because you are careless or because you have an
| illness.
| DannyBee wrote:
| Consider having just the tiniest bit of empathy for other
| people.
|
| In the end, who cares if they write "was good at work" on your
| tombstone. Why not try for "helped people when they needed it"?
|
| As a severely ADHD person who manages a lot of people and
| managers, if i saw a manager acting like this, this sort of
| "don't care at all about anything but the output" is not a
| thing i would generally reward.
|
| Certainly people need to be able to do the job, but there is a
| different between trying to lift people up and help them do it,
| and just burning through people to try go get things done.
| lzaaz wrote:
| No, what I'm saying is that the article makes it sound like a
| boss will fire you for being oblivious about your diagnosis
| and your illness. Instead, I think that the job needs to be
| done, and if you aren't able to for whatever the reason is
| the boss is going to have to find a replacement for you.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| you are looking at it from the perspective of the boss.
|
| try looking from the perspective of the worker who want to
| succeed in a highly regimented world that's artificially
| constructed that way.
|
| if you don't believe the world is artificially constructed
| in myriad ways which are counterproductive to vast
| populations, i recommend the book Invisible Women.
| lzaaz wrote:
| >if you don't believe the world is artificially
| constructed in myriad ways which are counterproductive to
| vast populations
|
| I know it is. And my answer is boo hoo.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| Oh, we know.
|
| I often feel like a colorblind person who keeps getting
| reprimanded for mixing up green and red. As if, if they just
| penalized me a little bit more, I'd stop mixing them up.
|
| The world is cruel and ok, it's not fair, but sometimes you
| just can't do anything but suffer and struggle on. Certainly
| it's the nature of the world that your strengths are usually
| ignored while your weaknesses are always thrown into sharp
| relief.
|
| What else can you do? I'm certainly not going to just curl up
| and die.
| jwatt wrote:
| I recently watched the following series of videos by Russell
| Barkley who I believe is one of the world's leading ADHD
| researchers. I think it's a good place to start because it
| describes the scientific understanding of what ADHD is, which I
| feel has given me a more solid grounding to evaluating other
| things I read and hear about ADHD, some of which turns out to be
| innacurate.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T9LQ5kqOqo&list=PLzBixSjmbc...
| jwatt wrote:
| He also just released the second edition of his book, Taking
| Charge of Adult ADHD, this year. That book (along with Atomic
| Habits) seems to be the one most suggested by the ADHD
| subredit's users...at least for those who can manage to make it
| through a book.
| rattlesnakedave wrote:
| Not 100% related but if you are having ADHD symptoms consider
| making sure you don't have sleep apnea. Waking symptoms are about
| the same.
| bobobob420 wrote:
| big plus one to this. recommend mouth tape + humidifier
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| I would worry about getting a blocked up nose during the
| night, and having my mouth taped shut, means not getting
| enough oxygen. Is that an issue?
| sirmarksalot wrote:
| I'm also reluctant to tell managers about my ADHD because even if
| they're supportive, they often have a very shallow understanding
| of how it works. That means they'll suggest strategies that make
| sense for solving the problem of "easily distracted," but fail
| when the problem is "motivation is interest-based, and starting
| on new things is difficult."
|
| The explosion of resources for ADHD adults has made it a lot
| easier to understand ourselves and how we work, but that
| information hasn't necessarily made it out to the neurotypical
| world.
| codegangsta wrote:
| Being very recently diagnosed with ADHD in my 30s (after
| searching for a source of my chronic exhaustion), it was
| interesting to notice just how much I masked my own ADHD from
| myself and others my whole life, where the experience of taking
| medication definitely matched "putting on glasses for the first
| time".
|
| I've always felt like doing uninteresting things felt like wading
| through 3 feet of water, but I assumed everyone felt that, and
| that I was just lazy.
|
| The biggest realization I had was that I have been using negative
| feelings/emotions in order to get stuff done for years. On the
| outside I looked like a productive, healthy person, on the inside
| I was beating myself down all day every day, and that behavior
| didn't lead to a great relationship with myself.
|
| Now that I'm on medication, my brain actually rewards me for
| doing boring stuff. I see a dish in the sink and I want to rinse
| it and put it away because it feels good.
|
| tldr; Just because you lead a successful, healthy life, your own
| perception on how hard life needs to be may still be skewed, and
| treatment for those who have been diagnosed with ADHD can really
| up your quality of life
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| > The biggest realization I had was that I have been using
| negative feelings/emotions in order to get stuff done for
| years. On the outside I looked like a productive, healthy
| person, on the inside I was beating myself down all day every
| day, and that behavior didn't lead to a great relationship with
| myself.
|
| Yeah, those years of negative self-talk, there's a lot of
| learning to be kind to yourself that comes with a diagnosis.
| codegangsta wrote:
| Yup, not everyones diagnosis is the same, but mine was
| definitely combined with childhood trauma in a way that made
| it hard to notice anything was wrong in the first place.
| Can't begin to describe how much easier life feels now that
| I'm not using negative self talk to get through my day
| superchunk wrote:
| I've come to the conclusion that attention is a spectrum, and
| everybody falls somewhere on the spectrum. The challenge comes
| when societal constructs like education and the workplace require
| a behavior that does not come naturally.
| spritefs wrote:
| Imho this whole ADHD/adderall thing is just the pharma industry
| peddling medication and shilling super hard. I wouldn't be
| surprised if pharma dollars somehow influenced this BBC article
| getting published
|
| If some people like paying an additional tax to the
| pharmaceutical industry, good for them. For me personally, I'd
| rather jump off a cliff then support it
|
| Before someone gets shitty with me for "denying their
| experience", no I'm not denying it. I'm saying it isn't
| universal, and the pharma way isn't the only way
| fallingfrog wrote:
| Well, it's an anaesthetic. It makes the discomfort of forcing
| yourself to focus on something you find maddeningly pointless
| more tolerable. As long as the pain is there the anaesthetic
| will have a purpose.
| [deleted]
| spritefs wrote:
| > Well, it's an anaesthetic
|
| I thought it was a stimulant
| skyyler wrote:
| Are you being coy? They clearly explained what they meant
| by anesthetic in this context.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Definitely not intended to take anything away from people with
| ADHD, but this is true for a spectrum of mental/cognitive
| problems. My wife has suffered from long term depression, and
| seeked treatment, but still has had to lose jobs because every
| now and then it creeps up. And you don't get a lot of leeway in
| the modern corporate environment.
| [deleted]
| Ilasky wrote:
| I'm a founder with ADHD and have felt this struggle first-hand.
| It's like "why can't I focus on this? It's SO simple".
|
| As mentioned in the article, a large component of the struggle is
| executive functioning, but there are tools like Double [0] that
| aim to provide a way to get around that struggle by pairing
| people up to do the same task together. It's actually a really
| neat concept that extends beyond ADHD![1]
|
| [0] https://doubleapp.xyz
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_facilitation
| [deleted]
| boredemployee wrote:
| Didn't have time to explore [0] but my kid struggle a lot to
| focus on things "that matter", but pandemics brought a new
| reality where he engage a lot in school activities if he is
| pairing online with his friends. Since 2021 school is not
| online anymore and that's something neither school nor I
| motivated him to do.
| d--b wrote:
| Can people stop a second with ADHD-as-a-disease? It's the society
| that's sick!!
|
| Prevalence in the US is 10% of the general population. Many of
| whom have active social lives and high paying jobs.
|
| Those people play the game they have been told to play. Corporate
| bullshit, boring tasks, endless meetings, and then they complain
| to their doctors they don't feel like it fits. Something's afoot.
| and the doctors say: "right these people suffer, they have some
| kind of illness".
|
| But did anyone pause and asked whether primates evolved to play
| the corporate bullshit game? Did anyone ask whether the
| hedonistic treadmill could cause people to not feel right? Did it
| ever occured to these doctors that following american dream could
| have some detrimental impact on one's mental health?
|
| My opinion is that if you feel that you have ADHD, it may be that
| you're the one who's sane in a environment that isn't! Quit your
| job and live a better life!
| [deleted]
| potta_coffee wrote:
| I have the same feeling; society is sick. But I cannot just
| quit my job and escape society. I have no idea how to make a
| living on my own outside of a company.
| imesh wrote:
| Going through University and working in tech has been extremely
| hard for me. I'm terrible at it. Sure, I can come up with an
| algorithm, I can write code, but something about doing mental
| work is extremely laborious to me. I spend 30 minutes panicking
| before I can even open an email.
|
| This past year I took a break and went to work with my Arborist
| friend as a groundsman. Do I still have ADD? Probably? I can't
| tell. None of those ADD issues come up unless I'm working on a
| computer. The tree business has been going well and the work
| has expanded into all kinds of new opportunities. I don't think
| I'm going back. Especially if medication is necessary for me to
| succeed.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| I mean, you're not _wrong_ , it's just that quitting your job
| isn't usually an option that is available. I always live with
| the sword of damocles over my head as it is- space out in the
| wrong meeting or forget something and I'll get my wish and be
| fired anyway. No need to rush it. My savings will last 2 or 3
| months while I panic and look for a new job that I'll hate just
| as much. The escape hatch is getting really lucky and being
| able to make money doing what your passion is- extremely rare-
| or inherit a fuckton of money- equally rare.
|
| But believe me when I say I spend every day trying to figure
| out a way to do just that (make money on one of my passion
| projects). If I could live long enough, eventually I would
| succeed. It's just that I will probably get old and die before
| that happens, like most people with ADHD.
| WheatMillington wrote:
| That's not a helpful post whatsoever. We don't get to
| individually choose the society we live amongst. It's not an
| option for most people to just quit and live their best life.
| So we do what we can to be happy and perform within the
| constraints we have.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| That's not a helpful comment either. Society as is isn't
| based on laws of physics or any natural law. Constraints have
| changed over centuries and will have to again.
| spicymaki wrote:
| > Can people stop a second with ADHD-as-a-disease? It's the
| society that's sick!!
|
| This is correct! ADHD may stem from a useful set of traits for
| past humans that were much more active, had to scout things,
| etc. The problem is we now have a regimented culture that
| rewards people who sit, perform boring repetitive tasks, and
| need to concentrate on uninteresting material for long periods
| of time. This is a well known to be an unhealthy lifestyle for
| humans.
|
| >Quit your job and live a better life!
|
| I am not sure that can work for everyone. Quit your job and
| then what?
| Eumenes wrote:
| "Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make
| them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take away
| their unhappiness. Science fiction It is already happening to
| some extent in our own society. Instead of removing the
| conditions that make people depressed modern society gives them
| antidepressant drugs. In effect antidepressants are a means of
| modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to
| enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would
| otherwise find intolerable."
|
| -- Theodore Kaczynski
| acuozzo wrote:
| > Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that
| make them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take
| away their unhappiness.
|
| THX 1138
| cmarschner wrote:
| Given that I've grown up with zero people in my environment that
| showed behavior of ADHD I wonder how much of it is just
| consequence of our ever more stimulus-intensive world.
|
| It seems most extreme in the US - the TV program there is a
| constant blurt of screaming to me whenever I visit it. European
| TV is much less intrusive, often more like US programs from the
| 70s.
|
| But meanwhile a lot of the stimuli come from the cell phone, and
| I do think I've a) become addicted to it and b) I've developed
| signs of ADHD in recent years as well.
|
| So then the hypothesis is that things get better by adapting the
| environment to be more brain-friendly... like
|
| - fewer stimuli (screens)
|
| - less competition / anxiety-inducing work environments
|
| - more sunlight, less time in dark interior spaces
|
| - boredom
|
| - sleeping hygiene
|
| - less processed foods, and a microbiome well catered to
|
| - nature
|
| In other words: an environment that resembles more closely to
| what humans have adapted to over 100000s of years, and which we
| deviated from in the past 100... or 20.
| moojacob wrote:
| As someone who has experienced a bad reaction to ADHD medication
| after years of using it, I can say that it was a frustrating and
| difficult time. I felt like I had been relying on the medication
| to function, but it suddenly stopped working for me and made me
| feel even worse. I was worried about how I was going to manage my
| ADHD symptoms without it.
|
| However, I eventually discovered that I could improve my
| executive functioning skills by getting ten hours of sleep a
| night and engaging in intense exercise. These changes have made a
| huge difference for me and have greatly improved my ability to
| manage my ADHD. I'm glad that I was able to find alternative
| methods that work for me.
| noname120 wrote:
| Could you elaborate on the bad reaction that you experienced?
| Which treatment, brand, and daily amount?
| moojacob wrote:
| I was on Adderall, then tried Dexamfetamine. I was on 30mg a
| day long lasting I think. For the first six months the
| medication worked, then I began to feel sick and paranoid. My
| social life fell apart and my work became mediocre.
|
| Now when I take any stimulant after a couple hours I start to
| feel dehydrated and light headed. If I continue using for a
| couple days I am unable focus on anything except a couple
| intrusive thoughts.
|
| Different medications work for different people, so please
| don't ignore ADHD treatment! It's a powerful tool, just be
| careful not to cut yourself like I did.
| afarviral wrote:
| Quite a similar experience to me. After a change of meds I had
| a bought of intense disphoria and anxiety which I (perhaps
| falsely) attributed to the meds after 9 years of use and misuse
| (insufflation etc). I stopped cold turkey until my special
| authorization expired and haven't used them since. It is a
| relief in some ways that my overall as methylphenidate is quite
| hard on the heart and addictive, so it got me through the
| quitting phase. I've found other ways to get by with my ADHD;
| diet, sleep, caffeine, environment etc. Its possible the meds
| had already helped to establish the patterns of concentration
| too.
| RationPhantoms wrote:
| This article feels like it was written for my brother. He's been
| fired, sequentially, 4 times in roles of progressively narrower
| scope/salary.
|
| From project manager (80k+) at a large NYC-BASED structured-
| cabling company to a billing coordinator position (<40k) at his
| most recent position. With the starting of each new job, him
| telling me this time it's going to be different and not end in
| his firing.
|
| It makes me want to put my head into a pillow and scream because
| he's an intelligent, sociable and kind person but his mind just
| sits so juxtaposed from what these companies want. However, I can
| see his mind move beneath his eyes when we converse, and then
| subsequently lose focus, so it's pretty apparent if you were to
| meet him. I can see how that translates to poor job performance.
|
| Unfortunately, due to a heavy-handed prescription dosage of
| adderall when he was young, he's pretty hesitant about trying a
| new regimen. I've tried pulling him into it by telling him my
| newly prescribed Semaglutide (Wegovy) medicine will also be a
| lifelong medication/issue too so we'll be in the trenches
| together.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| There are non-amphetamine medications available now that might
| work for your brother, and cognitive-behavioural therapy can
| really help too.
| DannyBee wrote:
| +1
|
| After 30+ years, I have found the non-amphetamine medications
| work a lot more consistently and helpfully than the
| amphetamine ones.
|
| The one downside is that if your brother also ends up on
| SSRI's, he won't be able to use most of the non-amphetamine
| medications until he is done with SSRI's.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > After 30+ years, I have found the non-amphetamine
| medications work a lot more consistently and helpfully than
| the amphetamine ones.
|
| I've watched a lot of friends go through the same cycle:
| Initial excitement from an Adderall prescription which
| gradually gives way to tolerance and a mismatch between
| reality and their perceptions of Adderall as a miracle
| pill.
|
| The non-stimulant medications have worked wonders for a lot
| of people I know.
|
| The catch (and it's a big one) is that they generally don't
| work immediately. In fact, they can be kind of unenjoyable
| for the first weeks or months while they begin to work.
| This is the exact opposite timeline of stimulants, which
| puts a lot of people off. If you can gradually titrate up
| and you're willing to give it a multi-month trial before
| ruling it out, the non-stimulant medications can actually
| be quite good. Some times better than the stimulants at
| controlling impulses and improving cognition, even. First-
| time stimulant users can easily get sidetracked by focusing
| too much on distractions.
|
| The other catch is that it's hard to objectively evaluate
| the positive changes when they happen gradually over the
| course of a month. A lot of Straterra (Atomoxetine) users
| will _think_ the medication isn 't working, but when you
| ask them to objectively walk through their daily routines
| and work performance they realize they've improved
| tremendously. For others, they don't realize the benefits
| until the quit the medication and lose the positives, at
| which point they're back for round 2 of titration.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Any recommendations? I took one that you take at night. It
| slightly improved my focus during day. But would leave me
| sleepy all day. Even with taking it before bed.
| chrsig wrote:
| Strattera (atomoxetine) is a commonly used SNRI developed
| for adhd. I personally had a very bad reaction to it, but
| it allegedly helps some people.
|
| Guanfacine is another, I haven't tried it, so I can't give
| any first hand experience. I think it's used more to help
| blood pressure & agitation that can come up with adhd
|
| Welbutrin is also commonly used.
| tecleandor wrote:
| I had a bad experience with Strattera too, and now I'm on
| Vyvanse, which is an amphetamine but not the worst. I'm
| still on a low dose but not bad. I'm feeling some
| improvements and thinking about some specialized therapy.
| projectazorian wrote:
| Guanfacine is great, good for anxiety and agitation,
| helps with amphetamine side effects too. As far as task
| management goes it seems to help with focus, not so much
| with motivation - I still need amphetamines for that.
| astrange wrote:
| Strattera and Tenex are two main ones.
|
| They actually have more side effects than amphetamines do,
| though Strattera works well for me as long as you
| absolutely always take it with food. (Otherwise it feels
| like you're getting kicked in the stomach.)
| sbate1987 wrote:
| thethethethe wrote:
| Wellbutrin worked wonders for me. Works immediately,
| similar to amphetamines and is easy to obtain legitimately.
| s5300 wrote:
| While this is true, it is also true that Amphetamine is the
| Powerhouse of the Cell
| Shared404 wrote:
| _angry mitochondria sounds play in the background_
| marketerinland wrote:
| Hey. Sorry to hear this.
|
| I have also been fired a bunch of times, and people describe
| interacting with me in the exact same way as you just described
| it.
|
| Your brother is consistently going for the wrong kind of job,
| from the sound of it. Operations jobs.
|
| I eventually succeeded when I switched to work that is more
| strategic and creative.
|
| I got really into language learning, blogging, website
| building, and then just followed things forward.
|
| I then eventually became head of marketing for two different
| startups.
|
| And now I run a bootstrapped company that is exploding in
| growth. We'll probably do $10m+ next year in revenue.
|
| I pay people to take care of details while constantly
| explaining to them what my vision is.
|
| I KNOW the feeling when you see people lose faith in you. You
| can literally see it in their eyes.
|
| And I also - finally - know the opposite feeling. That of
| admiration and appreciation.
|
| Please show this to your brother.
| cowpig wrote:
| I've had a less extreme version of this but similar arc: I
| have ADHD, I've always underachieved at normal jobs, founded
| my own company and now run a successful business (though it's
| certainly been a bumpy ride).
| ekanes wrote:
| +1. As a founder with adhd and it was a strength not a
| weakness. Constant change and problem solving is
| exhilarating.
| methyl wrote:
| I also run a bootstrapped company around with $10M reve as an
| ADHD founder. Drop an email to lucjan at surferseo.com, I'd
| love to chat and share experiences.
| Disruptive_Dave wrote:
| Big fan of you guys.
| treeman79 wrote:
| In 40s now. Diagnosed a couple years ago. My career was a mix
| of huge successes and horrible failure. Really hard complicated
| and interesting projects I would shine at. Basically CTO
| founder type roles I was amazing.
|
| I stunk at routine day to day work.
|
| For me the worst pain possible is boredom. I've had kidney
| stones. Boredom is in same range.
|
| First time I took medication was shocking to find that the pain
| of boredom was gone. I had no idea that was possible.
| ojl wrote:
| I recognise myself in this (except that I don't have a
| diagnosis or medication). However, for me it's a certain kind
| of boredom that's painful. I like reading, running, sitting
| and thinking, and similar activities which might not be very
| intense. But at work, routine tasks or even technically
| interesting tasks which aren't urgent in some way can feel
| painfully boring to me.
|
| The most successful moments in my career have been when I
| have been at a place long enough to know the domain and being
| reasonably comfortable in the code base. Because then I have
| been able to take on those really difficult and urgent tasks.
| And I don't get nervous or stressed while doing it :)
| whycome wrote:
| What did you end up taking? Similar boat
| treeman79 wrote:
| Vyvanse works best for me. But Causes me a lot of pain. So
| I only rarely take it.
| JoeJonathan wrote:
| Was your doctor reluctant to prescribe it for occasional
| use? As I understand it, providers typically expect you
| take ADHD meds daily.
|
| I ask because my attention issues are task-dependent, but
| doctors tend to view even the suggestion of occasional
| use as a red flag for recreational abuse.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > As I understand it, providers typically expect you take
| ADHD meds daily.
|
| I don't think this is the case - mine recommends 5-6 days
| a week maximum to avoid building up tolerance, and I
| believe this is fairly standard advice. And occasional
| longer breaks are encouraged for the same reason.
| jvm___ wrote:
| Do you think Abraham Lincoln's brother had ADHD?
|
| Washington, December 24, 1848
|
| Dear Johnston: Your request for eighty dollars, I do not think
| it best, to comply with now. At the various times when I have
| helped you a little, you have said to me ``We can get along
| very well now'' but in a very short time I find you in the same
| difficulty again. Now this can only happen by some defect in
| your conduct. What that defect is I think I know. You are not
| lazy, and still you are an idler. I doubt whether since I saw
| you, you have done a good whole day's work in any one day. You
| do not very much dislike to work; and still you do not work
| much, merely because it does not seem to you that you could get
| much for it. This habit of uselessly wasting time, is the whole
| difficulty; and it is vastly important to you, and still more
| so to your children that you should break this habit. It is
| more important to them, because they have longer to live, and
| can keep out of an idle habit before they are in it; easier
| than they can get out after they are in.
|
| You are now in need of some ready money; and what I propose is,
| that you shall go to work, ``tooth and nails'' for some body
| who will give you money [for] it. Let father and your boys take
| charge of things at home---prepare for a crop, and make the
| crop; and you go to work for the best money wages, or in
| discharge of any debt you owe, that you can get. And to secure
| you a fair reward for your labor, I now promise you, that for
| every dollar you will, between this and the first of next May,
| get for your own labor, either in money, or in your own
| indebtedness, I will then give you one other dollar. By this,
| if you hire yourself at ten dolla[rs] a month, from me you will
| get ten more, making twenty dollars a month for your work. In
| this, I do not mean you shall go off to St. Louis, or the lead
| mines, or the gold mines, in Calif[ornia,] but I [mean for you
| to go at it for the best wages you] can get close to home [in]
| Coles county. Now if you will do this, you will soon be out of
| debt, and what is better, you will have a habit that will keep
| you from getting in debt again. But if I should now clear you
| out, next year you will be just as deep in as ever. You say you
| would almost give your place in Heaven for $70 or $80. Then you
| value your place in Heaven very cheaply for I am sure you can
| with the offer I make you get the seventy or eighty dollars for
| four or five months work. You say if I furnish you the money
| you will deed me the land, and, if you dont pay the money back,
| you will deliver possession. Nonsense! If you cant now live
| with the land, how will you then live without it? You have
| always been [kind] to me, and I do not now mean to be unkind to
| you. On the contrary, if you will but follow my advice, you
| will find it worth more than eight times eighty dollars to you.
|
| Affectionately Your brother A. LINCOLN
| hateful wrote:
| The fact that he's intelligent make him what we refer to in the
| ADHD world as Twice Exceptional (me included!).
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa5v1a2H-xs
| michael_j_ward wrote:
| Despite seeing myself almost precisely described in that
| video and the original article, and despite having been
| diagnosed with ADHD as a college student...
|
| It's hard for me to believe that there exists persons that
| won't / don't identify with that description, and thus the
| cause of my executive dysfunction isn't ADHD, but just a
| failure to cultivate habits of discipline.
| LocalPCGuy wrote:
| People who are gifted definitely do just what I think you
| are saying - they blame their failures on their own
| personal inabilities to cultivate habits. And because they
| are smart, they were often able to compensate for potential
| ADHD symptoms throughout school and while young, and so
| it's often ruled out and not even considered until they are
| adults (and then often not considered because they "did
| good in school" etc.) Obviously not everyone who thinks
| they are gifted actually is, but talking about those that
| are here.
|
| As one of those persons (tested 98th percentile on SAT in
| 8th grade, for example, and was in gifted or advanced
| classes until I just got bored of "extra work"), I think it
| is important to really consider this and reflect on whether
| or not something like ADHD could be at play and getting in
| the way of life goals. The rejection sensitivity dysphoria
| mentioned in the article, while it is not a diagnosed
| condition (won't find it in the DSM), does describe one of
| the states of mind of a lot of people with undiagnosed ADHD
| because of a lot of negative conditioning for many years,
| being told they just didn't have enough willpower to do
| things "right".
| tjkrusinski wrote:
| Glad to see this article focus on more than distractibility. In
| my mid twenties I struggled with managing impulsive behavior. I
| would regularly say inappropriate things in meetings, unable to
| understand why I said what I said.
|
| After a lot of work in therapy and many different types and
| dosages of medications, I'm in a better spot. I've turned what
| was a problem into something I'm proud of.
|
| Through putting my foot in my mouth so many times, I've grown an
| ability to say the hard, uncomfortable things. Building a lot of
| empathy and mental processes has helped me be able to approach
| conversations and situations head on with (some amount of) grace.
| I'm a better manager because of it.
|
| However, humor is a requirement for working with me, it's a way
| I've diverted the impulsive thoughts into something less
| abrasive. I often wish I didn't make so many remarks or jokes but
| on balance it's not too bad.
| smnrg wrote:
| Rejoice, you have a spark of humanity left in you--even in a
| corporate environment.
|
| Which is usually a requirement to be hired in my team.
|
| I vastly prefer direct, humorous, and respectful coworkers like
| you over perfectly controlled machines.
| Moissanite wrote:
| As an adult who feels like they identify with these
| characteristics, it is hard to know when to try to get help, or
| whether you are just seeing what you want to see and looking for
| an excuse.
|
| I have always shied away from seeking an adult ADHD diagnosis,
| partly because of prideful denial (not wanting to acknowledge
| that there might be something wrong with me), and partly because
| I have no faith in the NHS giving a shit, since I am an otherwise
| health and successful 30-something.
| friedman23 wrote:
| I tried everything before considering medication. I took every
| vitamin under the sun, walked 5 to 10 miles a day, lifted
| weights, did cardio, slept at the same exact time every day,
| and ate at the same exact time every day.
|
| None of it worked. Medication, so far, has been life changing.
| adhdthrowaway11 wrote:
| Same. Doing any of these (exercise, trying to find a job
| that's intrinsically more motivating, etc.) would somehow
| work, for a limited time, but not consistently. And if I
| stopped doing any of them, I'd go back to exactly where I was
| before. Dealing with procrastination and self-hate related to
| it had been a constant for me for the past 20 years.
|
| I consulted a therapist for many months (which I also hoped
| would help with this) and she confirmed that I should seek
| out medication.
|
| I don't want to promote any specific company, but I had a
| really good experience with one of the newest online medical
| startups (check reddit for recommendations). I was able to
| make an appointment, talk to a doctor twice in two days, and
| get my prescription and medication within 48 hours of signing
| up... I'm lucky to be in the US right now (I'm not a citizen,
| just working here legally). Out of pocket (i.e. without any
| insurance) it cost me roughly speaking $250 all in all which
| is extremely reasonable...
| adolph wrote:
| > looking for an excuse.
|
| > not wanting to acknowledge that there might be something
| wrong with me
|
| I had a similar mindset about a diagnosis. Here is why I
| changed my mind:
|
| The purpose of the diagnosis is to guide a course of actions
| that may improve your life and that of the people around you.
| It is the opposite of an excuse because getting help is good
| for you and others. You need never disclose to anyone that a
| diagnosis affects you but it can be helpful for others to
| understand some characteristics about you.
|
| ADHD (and many conditions) isn't something wrong with anyone.
| It is a term for a cluster of cognitive/behavior differences in
| the area known as "executive function." [0] These difference
| can be thought of like height or eyesight in that they can be
| [dis]advantageous or not and they can be compensated for or
| not.
|
| The choice to go on the road of self discovery is your own. As
| far as I can tell there is nothing to lose and much to gain.
|
| 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_functions
| WheatMillington wrote:
| FWIW here's my experience: mid 30s, New Zealand, wife read
| about ADHD due to young kids and recognised the adult symptoms
| in me. After some prodding I saw a specialist and was
| diagnosed.
|
| I take daily ritalin - outside of the first few days (which
| were dramatic) I haven't had a life altering experience on the
| drugs, and tbh it doesn't change much whether or not I take it.
| However, having a diagnoses changes the way I approach things
| in life - it's helpful to know why my brain works the way it
| does, and how to work around it and with it. I don't think you
| need a formal diagnoses for this though.
|
| It's extremely helpful to take a big dose just before a long
| meeting, to be fair. Where previously I'd struggle to even make
| it through, I can now be engaged.
| ravenstine wrote:
| I find that stimulants are mostly good for one thing, which
| is the ability to push through uninteresting tasks. Listening
| to others also becomes much easier. I don't find they have
| that dramatic of an effect, but I feel more "normal" if that
| makes any sense. Stimulants won't fix ADHD and magically make
| uninteresting work stimulating. They just lift a thin veil a
| bit.
| Zircom wrote:
| You might try switching to strattera or Adderall for a month
| or two, there can be a dramatic difference between the
| effectiveness of ADD medications on individuals.
| Moissanite wrote:
| My reluctance to engage with the health service has led me to
| experiment with a few things like exercise, vitamin D and
| better sleep, which all had positive outcomes even if they
| didn't fix the problem.
|
| Your description of ritalin is similar to what I found when I
| took my experiments further and tried modafinil for about 18
| months. It was just about effective enough to justify the
| (legal but awkward) way of obtaining it. Speaking to a doctor
| would of course be the sensible next step if I wasn't so
| bloody stubborn.
| odiroot wrote:
| > and partly because I have no faith in the NHS giving a shit
|
| If you have to deal with NHS for ADHD, them giving a shit is
| the least of your problems. Getting an appointment with a
| dedicated specialist is the hardest thing. Currently the
| waiting times are 6 months to 2 years.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Getting an adult ADHD diagnosis on the NHS is very hard and
| time consuming. Most people in the UK get a private diagnosis -
| there are many online websites now that will diagnose you
| completely over zoom in 1 hour.
|
| In the US it's even easier. There is a profit motive in the US
| to get people onto lifetime medication, and many websites for
| online diagnosis and delivery. If you have private insurance,
| it's easy - just self refer to a psychiatrist, list your ADHD
| symptoms, get a prescription. There's even an Adderall shortage
| in the US right now - demand is outstripping supply. Adult ADHD
| seems to be rising dramatically in western countries.
|
| My thoughts are that a lot of people, esp. intelligent ones,
| will have a lot of symptoms of adult ADHD. It might even be
| something normal in people near the top of the IQ bell curve -
| so especially common in tech workers. I think that what you
| have, and others, could be diagnosed as mild ADHD, maybe
| moderate. It's nothing at all like severe ADHD - which would
| make it literally impossible for you to have a career or get a
| degree without medication. These are the cases generally
| diagnosed in children because it's so obvious.
|
| So... what to do? You can get a private diagnosis and get
| medication. It will probably help you a lot, at least initially
| - you'll be able to crank out 8 hours of boring ass work no
| problem. Over the long term, you will suffer some side effects
| - worse sleep, tolerance builds up, and your ADHD symptoms will
| likely get much worse if you stop medication.
|
| I have mixed feelings about it all. I also identify w/ a lot of
| the ADHD symptoms (and I've been trying to get an NHS diagnosis
| for ages, and am going to seek out a private one next year).
| But with good sleep, exercise, and various other techniques, I
| think I can manage a successful job/career without needing
| meds. I found WFH really hard though, but in the office I can
| manage. It's really hard to know where I am on the "normal"
| curve though - I don't know anyone who doesn't suffer from
| procrastination to a degree, or struggles with boring tasks,
| who themselves are not on medication.
| LocalPCGuy wrote:
| > nothing at all like severe ADHD ... cases generally
| diagnosed in children because it's so obvious
|
| I think the thing you might overlook with this statement
| (truncated slightly) is that sometime people are able to mask
| their symptoms, especially those who are highly intelligent
| and who may fall into an "inattentive" diagnosis, rather than
| the "hyperactive" side. I agree there are different levels
| that the affect can have on folks, however there is a
| difference between the boredom/procrastination/etc. struggles
| with someone who has ADHD and someone who doesn't. It's isn't
| just something that "everyone deals with to some extent or
| another". And proper diagnosis techniques will also sort for
| false positives, to eliminate folks who are actually "just
| bored", for example.
|
| That said, this is something that studies have shown very
| much needs to be addressed not only from a medication aspect
| - sometimes it is definitely necessary and in many cases all
| the behavior techniques in the world won't make up for the
| chemical imbalances. But it should also be addressed from a
| behavior standpoint, via CBT or other therapy as well as
| other wellness techniques you mention, like good nurtition,
| sleep, exercise. From the studies I've read, the best results
| come from a combination of the two, not from ignoring or
| promoting one over the other.
| ojhughes wrote:
| I got a private diagnosis for around PS1000 and was then
| transferred to the NHS for my prescription and yearly
| consultations. It was well worth the money for me
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| As a general PSA:
|
| ADHD is supposed to be a diagnosis of last resort that they
| give after eliminating all other possibilities. It's useful to
| know the root cause of whatever problems you may be having.
|
| Some studies and some individuals report benefiting from
| certain nutritional supplements if you get a diagnosis and want
| to treat it without medication per se.
| ghorto wrote:
| I got diagnosed and medicated, significantly improved my
| ability to work, got promoted way past what I ever would have
| expected ... and still feel like a fraud who doesn't really
| have ADHD and who will get caught out any minute.
|
| But I'm still glad I sought help, even if it didn't fix the
| underlying self-doubt and self-derision.
| falcolas wrote:
| > it is hard to know when to try to get help, or whether you
| are just seeing what you want to see and looking for an excuse
|
| And that's why you see a professional. If you don't, you'll
| never know. It's hard, it's embarrassing, and ultimately, it
| can be redeeming to know that no, you're not just lazy.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| I'd recommend the book "Delivered From Distraction". It's
| written in a relatively ADHD friendly way and the first chapter
| or two explains a bit more about the condition and will likely
| give you enough of a feeling as to whether it would be worth
| pursuing a diagnosis. ("ADHD 2.0" is also good and is a more
| recent book by the same author).
|
| I get the concern about the NHS (private support options are
| available too if that's an option for you) but I would
| definitely try to move past any stigma concerns - no one cares
| (in a good way) :) personally I don't think it's a big deal and
| that shouldn't get in your way of pursuing answers if that's
| the right path for you to take.
| opportune wrote:
| A diagnosis might help you get something like medication which
| does actually help.
|
| I agree that if you don't plan on taking medication there is no
| need to seek a diagnosis. Unless you want to get involved in
| ADHD support groups and stuff, where you'd (imo rightfully)
| draw some errant looks if you admitted you'd never been
| diagnosed with it.
|
| For me the medication is life changingly effective so I'm very
| glad I got formally diagnosed at 25
| falcolas wrote:
| I was once in the "no medication" camp. Even without
| medication, a diagnosis can get you:
|
| - Help via CBT and other thereputical techniques.
|
| - Knowledge of what's imposter syndrome and what's a real
| issue you're facing.
|
| - Allowances (the legally required ADA type) at work.
| gnicholas wrote:
| FWIW, there seem to be more employee affinity groups for
| dyslexia or neurodiversity in general. I think you've
| identified some of the reasons why. I've also heard nightmares
| about getting support services in the UK. One person told me
| that she had been diagnosed and was receiving some assistive
| technology supports, but to get access to tools she wasn't
| previously aware of (my startup's browser plugin), she would
| need to go through the diagnosis process again. Not
| surprisingly, she chose not to and just paid out-of-pocket.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I think you have those switched around, the one where something
| is wrong with you is if you're lazy, ADHD would be if something
| was wrong with your inborn biological configuration. If you
| want a reason for that, it's because the "you" that is
| responsible for their actions and subject to criticism is the
| one that can listen to words and control stuff, which doesn't
| extend to the looser sense of the word "you" that includes what
| your face looks like or how your various receptors are shaped.
| Moissanite wrote:
| Yeah I should have put quotes on "wrong"; I acknowledge
| (intellectually) that it is not a personal failing to have
| ADHD and would not think less of other people for it, but I
| apply a higher standard to myself for reasons passing
| understanding.
| whatshisface wrote:
| It's too late for you to apply any standards to your DNA,
| you've already been born.
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| Is there any evidence ADHD is genetic? The only
| connection I've read about is that parents who are
| diagnosed with ADHD are more likely to have their
| children diagnosed with it, but that itself is not
| evidence of a genetic trait. Seems just as likely to be
| nurture than nature to me- for example if parents over-
| stimulate their kids by putting them in front of
| TVs/iPads/etc. from a young age it's not surprising
| they'll develop attention problems
| 4ec0755f5522 wrote:
| Yes, it is a genetic neurological condition related to
| dopamine and not due to iPads.
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| You say that like it's a fact but diagnosis is not based
| on genetic/neurological testing, it's mostly just
| observing behavior in interviews.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Twin and family studies reveal that it is genetic but
| don't reveal how genes cause it or which ones are
| involved.
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| How can those studies prove it is genetic if there is no
| quantitative way to diagnose it? If you could do a blood
| test or brain scan and make a diagnosis on physical data
| then sure, but until then it's all just conjecture
| whatshisface wrote:
| If ADHD diagnoses were random, fraternal and identical
| twins wouldn't have correlated diagnoses.
| alwillis wrote:
| > Is there any evidence ADHD is genetic? The only
| connection I've read about is that parents who are
| diagnosed with ADHD are more likely to have their
| children diagnosed with it, but that itself is not
| evidence of a genetic trait.
|
| Short answer: yes, there's lots of evidence of genetic
| factors. One reason this isn't better understood is that
| a close relative can have undiagnosed ADHD, so people
| don't see the family ties. And also because it's
| stigmatized in some families, it's like a "don't ask,
| don't tell" situation.
|
| I mentioned a great podcast by Dr. Andrew Huberman, a
| Stanford neuroscientist earlier in the thread that
| mentions how the genetics of ADHD works [1]:
|
| [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33960655
| whatshisface wrote:
| You can subtract out nuture by comparing identical to
| fraternal twins, and by doing that they've found that it
| has a large genetic component.
| LocalPCGuy wrote:
| Definitely a lot of study in this, and much of it has
| shown there is a very strong sign that it is genetic and
| inheritable. As others have mentioned, twin studies and
| family studies have strongly supported a genetic
| component.
|
| Doesn't mean there isn't also some nuture involved also,
| likely not the "over-stimulation" argument you make, but
| more likely the "if you have it, more likely to recognize
| it in your children" type of thing.
|
| From the following link
|
| > Decades of research show that genes play an vital role
| in the etiology of attention deficit hyperactivity
| disorder (ADHD) and its comorbidity with other disorders.
| Family, twin, and adoption studies show that ADHD runs in
| families. ADHD's high heritability of 74% motivated the
| search for ADHD susceptibility genes. Genetic linkage
| studies show that the effects of DNA risk variants on
| ADHD must, individually, be very small. Genome-wide
| association studies (GWAS) have implicated several
| genetic loci at the genome-wide level of statistical
| significance. These studies also show that about a third
| of ADHD's heritability is due to a polygenic component
| comprising many common variants each having small
| effects.
|
| > Family, twin, and adoption studies provide a firm
| foundation for asserting that genes are involved in the
| etiology of ADHD.
|
| > Adoption studies suggest that the familial factors of
| ADHD are attributable to genetic factors rather than
| shared environmental factors
|
| > A similar heritability estimate of around 80% was seen
| in a study of MZ and DZ twins, full siblings, and
| maternal and paternal half-siblings
|
| > There can be no doubt that DNA variants in genes or
| regulatory regions increase the risk for ADHD. In rare
| cases, a single genetic defect may lead to ADHD in the
| absence of other DNA variants. We do not know how many of
| these rare variants exist or if such variants require
| environmental triggers for ADHD to emerge. It is equally
| clear that no common DNA variants are necessary and
| sufficient causes of ADHD.
|
| It doesn't preclude environmental factors either:
|
| > The convincing evidence for genes as risk factors for
| ADHD does not exclude the environment as a source of
| etiology. The fact that twin estimates of heritability
| are less than 100% asserts quite strongly that
| environmental factors must be involved. ADHD's
| heritability is high, and that estimate encompasses gene
| by environment interaction.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6477889/
| tempacct99 wrote:
| I built up pretty good ADHD for schoolwork tasks after years of
| practice, and I was good at schoolwork, so if I wasted hours of
| time, I could still get things done quickly. Working in tech,
| many of these habits carried over - like spending a day
| daydreaming, then leveraging adrenaline and all-nighters to catch
| up on work.
|
| For me, the bigger struggle came late-college/post-college when I
| had to manage boring and diverse real-life tasks, like acquiring
| the right documentation to go to the DMV for a new license. I
| paid crazy numbers of late fees and came close to some serious
| real-world consequences here. Getting treatment, reading
| Delivered from Distraction, and leaning on friends/partners made
| a really big difference. I'm now in my 40s and life things are
| very safe, stable, and happy (though I'm still constantly
| distracted).
|
| I guess I'm writing this (from a throwaway) to say - don't feel
| like your problems are invalid just because you coped ok until
| your 20s!
| 2bitencryption wrote:
| I just started working with a new team a few weeks ago.
|
| So far I've had "nice to meet you" calls with six or seven of the
| people on this team. And nearly half of them mentioned "by the
| way, I have ADHD, just so you know."
|
| And since I share so many characteristics with these individuals,
| now _I'm_ wondering if I have ADHD. Certainly the never-ending
| Instagram ads want me to think so. Or is this becoming a blanket
| term for "I'm easily excited and a bit weird"?
|
| Personally, I went almost my whole life with mild depression and
| didn't even know it - I just thought depression happened to other
| people, and that what I felt was normal. Then when a doctor gave
| me the questionnaire during a routine checkup and put me on
| SSRIs, it was basically life-changing.
|
| So I wonder if this is another case of that?
| pcurve wrote:
| "And nearly half of them mentioned "by the way, I have ADHD"
|
| Statistically that seems rather unlikely, so I wonder if people
| are being over-diagnosed?
| [deleted]
| unwind wrote:
| On the other hand, the parent's wording kind of made it sound
| like it was a lot of people. "Nearly half" of "six or seven"
| could be ... two.
|
| That might be a lot percentage-wise, but it's also a really
| small number of people to draw conclusions from, isn't it?
| k__ wrote:
| Many of my friends have ADHD.
|
| Probably because ADHD people have trouble getting along with
| neurotypicals
| chrsig wrote:
| > Probably because ADHD people have trouble getting along
| with neurotypicals
|
| In our defense, normies suck.
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| I think there's a more constructive way to look at this
| which is neurotypical people have an extremely difficult
| time empathizing with people who are neurodivergent. This
| leads to a lot of friction, especially in friend groups
| and between managers and their subordinates.
| k__ wrote:
| I couldn't even say who's normal and who isn't.
|
| I have a very small circle of friends and they're all
| kinda... special. So for me such behaviour feels normal.
| dirtybirdnj wrote:
| NTs have no incentive to understand NDs, yet the lives of
| NDs hinges on how much effort we put into understanding and
| being understood.
|
| One side is motivated to be open and communicative and the
| other is motivated to be insular and closed.
|
| I know the "us vs them" mentality isn't healthy but I've
| lived an entire lifetime in a societal warzone and I refuse
| to just roll over and pretend that I'm not part of a
| socially marginalized group.
|
| NTs are the problem. Society's intolerance is the problem.
| NDs aren't the problem, NTs are.
| P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote:
| Lets rephrase what you just said
|
| > straight people are the problem for not wanting to date
| gay or trans people
|
| It just is. Everyone has challenges, people with ADHD
| have challenges that can be particularly difficult for
| sure, but blaming others for not being like you is and
| telling them it's their responsibility is the same thing
| just reversed. It doesn't improve your situation.
| rrobukef wrote:
| Please don't.
|
| Society forces everybody to interact socially. In a
| society where everybody is expected to date anybody,
| forcing somebody to date is still abhorrent.
| P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote:
| > Society forces everybody to interact socially.
|
| No, the premise you require in order for me to be wrong
| is that society forces this on everyone, but I live with
| a woman who has crippling anxiety to the point of being
| on disability for it and I can tell you that's
| emphatically untrue. Even SSI related meetings happen
| over the phone because of her disability.
|
| Those with ADHD have many challenges that other people
| don't have, but asking the whole of society to suddenly
| be able to understand them better is like asking all
| women to be start preferring short men. It just is, and
| those with these challenges will have to learn how to
| deal with them (and you see posters on HN all the time
| talking about how they've done just that). For those for
| which it's truly debilitating, we need to make sure they
| don't fall through the cracks (and for the most part we
| do this).
|
| It's as much a part of reality as the person with 2
| missing thumbs having more difficulty grasping things
| than someone with both thumbs.
| corobo wrote:
| Statistics might ignore the "birds of a feather flock
| together" tendencies of humans.
|
| Over the years it's turning out my entire since-college
| friend group have some sort of mental health disorder that's
| been missed for 30 years.
|
| If I found a team with a couple other ADHD folks that seemed
| to be thriving that company would be top of my list for sure.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| Many people diagnose themselves, and still more are diagnosed
| by psychiatrists with checklists, as opposed to a
| neurologist. So there is probably some amount of over
| diagnosis. Some people may be using it as shorthand for "I'm
| sometimes disorganized" the way people use OCD as shorthand
| for "I like things clean".
|
| Some industries and workplaces are better suited for ADHD
| sufferers as well. My ADHD got in the way in most of my other
| jobs before I became a developer, where it's actually sort of
| an asset. Perhaps OPs job attracts a certain type.
| chrsig wrote:
| Possible that the people are misdiagnosed, also possible that
| there's bias in hiring, or bias in field selection from
| people with adhd. It could also just be that yes, it is
| statistically unlikely, and this is just a less likely
| sample.
| viraptor wrote:
| I've heard a nice description of ADHD being both the most
| under and over diagnosed issue at the same time. Since it's
| mostly based on self-reporting, it's easy to get on the meds
| if you want to, or easy to pin on an issue someone may be
| having, as a quick solution. On the other hand, for various
| reasons high functioning people will keep on going and try to
| deal with it daily until they run into some roadblocks. It
| took me over 30 years to get diagnosed, but really I
| should've done it in primary school already. (There was
| minimal awareness then)
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| This seems like uninformed conspiratorial thinking. Many
| stimulants have generic equivalents which is what most
| people are going to end up with when using insurance, at
| least in the US.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Haha, "hooked on narcotics" would be a grand thing if it
| were real, as then I'd never forget to take my pills.
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| THE American DEA consider "narcotic" to be synonymous with
| "opioid": https://www.mcieast.marines.mil/Portals/33/Docume
| nts/Safety/...
|
| However, the term does come up with other meanings. The
| international narcotics control board (UN) deems opioids as
| narcotics, but also cannabis and cocaine:
| https://www.incb.org/incb/en/narcotic-drugs/index.html
|
| But typically amphetamines are not classified as narcotics,
| even though you could argue they are based on dictionary
| definitions, i.e. "a drug (such as marijuana or LSD)
| subject to restriction similar to that of addictive
| narcotics whether physiologically addictive and narcotic or
| not" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/narcotic
| adamwk wrote:
| Who prescribes narcotics to people with ADHD?
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| Are you familiar with 'amphetamines'?
| robotresearcher wrote:
| Typical use of 'narcotics' means opiates and similar
| drugs (narc = sleep), and not amphetamines.
| filoleg wrote:
| It could be that the person is not from the west and/or
| not a native english speaker.
|
| And unnecessary specific example goes here. In russian
| language, every (99% of the time, illegal) drug that is
| associated with abuse is called a narcotic (including
| cannabis). There isn't a russian language equivalent word
| for "drugs", "drugs" is a synonym for "narcotics" there.
| There is "medicine" and there is "drug"/"narcotic".
|
| Which is why I saw, more than once, middle schoolers
| there in an English language class giggling once they saw
| a "drug store" sign in a photo, as it led to the "hehe,
| why do they sell drugs/narcotics at pharmacies there, US
| is a weird place huh" jokes.
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| My mistake, I meant it in more of an 'often-abused mind-
| altering addictive scheduled drug' connotation.
|
| Not that a drug being scheduled is proof of harm in and
| of itself, but it seems like many people (particularly on
| HN for some reason) are in heavy denial that they are
| addicted to amphetamines and that it maybe isn't such a
| healthy way to solve behavioral problems. If you're an
| adult then fine you can make your own decisions, but the
| fact that people give amphetamines to children because
| they cant focus in school seems very sick to me.
| Tao3300 wrote:
| > many people (particularly on HN for some reason) are in
| heavy denial that they are addicted to amphetamines and
| that it maybe isn't such a healthy way to solve
| behavioral problems
|
| You've coasted into the territory of self-appointed
| expert on ADHD. To me, this reads as "I have no idea what
| ADHD is like or how to manage it. My mind can't imagine
| that other minds may work differently, so what would work
| for my mind must work for all the other minds."
|
| > behavior problems
|
| Whether or not you're aware of it, that's an ableist dog
| whistle for "why don't you just stop being _______?"
| usually followed by a JBP reading list about lobsters and
| room cleaning.
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| No need to get so defensive, I don't think it's beyond
| the pale to characterize ADHD as a 'behavior problem'.
| And I don't think our minds are as different as you say-
| I take adderall sometimes when I have a lot to do and it
| helps me focus immensely. It does that for almost
| everyone believe it or not, you don't have be diagnosed
| with something for amphetamines to help you focus- it's
| what they do. I can absolutely understand someone who has
| trouble focusing seeing it as a godsend. But this hostile
| defensive reaction that many ADD-diagnosed have when you
| point out that taking amphetamines every day of their
| life isn't healthy is well, not healthy. Not to mention
| normalizing it for kids as I mentioned.
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| In an ideal world each child would have private teachers
| and tutors developing custom tailored curriculum and
| schedules for them. We don't live in an ideal world and
| success in public school essentially requires you be
| neurotypical or use medication to simulate it as much as
| possible.
|
| By all means try without it first but it's going to cost
| you time or money you may not have. With any luck future
| gains in understanding the human brain will lead to
| medication that has the pros without the cons but today
| we have to use the tools we have.
| Tao3300 wrote:
| Not sure where you are, but in the US, _narcotic_ has
| different meanings legally and pharmacologically.
| Amphetamines are classified as narcotics under neither.
|
| Maybe a mistranslation or you're conflating narcotic with
| "controlled substance"?
| Tao3300 wrote:
| The statistics you're not citing are from history. It could
| be that in the past it has been majorly under-diagnosed.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I still suspect that yes, it was under-diagnosed or
| overlooked for a long time, but that ultimately it's a
| disorder that is, for most people who have it, a result of
| a fairly-large section of the ordinary human brain-
| development spectrum being badly mis-matched with modern
| society, in a way that it hadn't been in the (perhaps
| somewhat distant) past. Since differences in brain
| development aren't really considered disorders unless they
| cause a problem in ordinary life, if ordinary life _itself_
| changes to put different sorts of demands on people, then
| it seems plausible that could create disorders where there
| were none before. I 'm pretty sure that's a lot of what's
| going on with AD(H)D.
|
| I mean, if you look at early 20th century jobs most similar
| to office jobs today, they look from the outside, _and are
| depicted by contemporary media_ , as crushingly dull--but,
| they had the benefit of also being highly repetitive, stack
| of papers to go through, do the thing you do, put it in the
| outbox, move to the next stack. Now everything's every bit
| as dull, but we're also expected to juggle a much broader
| set of not-terribly-similar tasks, often taking on little
| bits of what used to be the jobs of entire, dedicated
| humans before computerization "freed" companies to smear
| those tasks across their entire workforce. That seems like
| a recipe for failure for someone with ADHD-brain.
| golemiprague wrote:
| __derek__ wrote:
| Is it possible that your new employer has prioritized making
| accommodations for folks with ADHD, leading to more of them
| joining? Many companies don't have a compatible
| environment/culture.
| k__ wrote:
| I went in an ADHD rabbit hole a week ago.
|
| I never considered my self suffering from it, my quirks were
| individual parts of my character!
|
| But now I highly suspect I have it.
|
| I lose focus all the time. For example, Going from doing
| laundry, to gathering dishes, and bringing out trash without
| finishing one of them. Or I can't read long articles with
| topics that are important for me but don't tickle one of my
| interests. I've started reading countless books for only 20-30
| pages.
|
| Also, it feels impossible to plan for/estimate longer time
| periods and I'm constantly bouncing my knee or stimm in another
| way.
|
| I started freelancing because I couldn't get to work at the
| same time every day and even now I just work 5-10h a week,
| because my lack of motivation for repeating tasks.
|
| I thought, well it's biological, I can't have it, my relatives
| are all normal... But wait, my mother did impulse purchases all
| the time, was switching jobs constantly and even retired with
| 50, because of that.
|
| Whelp, guess I should get a psychiatrist soon...
| bcoughlan wrote:
| > Or I can't read long articles with topics that are
| important for me but don't tickle one of my interests.
|
| Can't concentrate on boring things - surely that's normal? It
| feels like they're casting the ADHD net wider and wider and
| from reading the internet I'm starting to question whether my
| behavior fits into the ADHD category. And part of me wants it
| to so that I have a label that explains and excuses me.
|
| But how do you separate it from this boring hyper-specialized
| world of bullshit jobs? As someone said it's no measure of
| health to be well-adjusted to a sick society. I love Doug
| Stanhope's take on it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKyMvjPJdtM
| Jensson wrote:
| > Can't concentrate on boring things - surely that's
| normal?
|
| Normal people can concentrate if you pay them money to
| concentrate. ADHD people can't concentrate with such
| incentives, they are people who require intrinsic
| motivation to concentrate and money/other rewards aren't
| enough.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| I don't have adhd but the way adhd people tell me is that
| they literally _cant_ do even basic things that are under
| stimulating. Im talking basics like doing the laundry,
| taking out the trash, keeping a neat workspace, throwing
| out spoiled food, and other very mundane chores. It causes
| physical pain or something.
| Jensson wrote:
| All those activities requires lots of focus. If we don't
| focus when doing them we will spill out stuff, or miss
| stuff when cleaning etc, and that makes people angry.
| Trying to do the right thing and focus on the task is
| basically impossible, so then there is no choice but to
| get screamed at by angry people who thinks we are lazy
| and defiant, no wonder we get angry and irritated...
| alwillis wrote:
| > Can't concentrate on boring things - surely that's
| normal?
|
| Neurotypical people can get stuff done even if it's of no
| interest to them or if they find it boring because it has
| to get done regardless. I've certainly had the experience
| of assigning something to an intern or trainee that's super
| boring and they just knock it out, even though they could
| care less about the subject of task itself.
|
| People with ADHD have lots of difficulty with tasks or
| subjects that are not of interest to them, which leads to
| procrastination. They often wait until the last minute
| (often it's those people who say "I'm good under
| pressure"); if the consequences are serious enough, that
| causes them to focus on getting the task done. Pulling an
| all-nighter to get that report done doesn't scale and it
| means something else important isn't being attended to.
|
| Dr. Andrew Huberman (Stanford neuroscientist) has an
| excellent podcast about ADHD [1].
|
| [1]: https://hubermanlab.com/adhd-and-how-anyone-can-
| improve-thei...
| astrange wrote:
| > Can't concentrate on boring things - surely that's
| normal?
|
| Not if it happens 24/7 across work, hobbies, and
| remembering to go to bed on time. (This is about struggling
| at work with ADHD, but it's more often possible to succeed
| at work and neglect everything else.)
|
| And "bullshit jobs" are a fake concept. Just because a guy
| wrote a book saying he doesn't understand a job doesn't
| mean it's not useful to someone.
| k__ wrote:
| Losing focus is an automatism for me.
|
| It's not that I think "Well, this is boring, I won't read
| it!"
|
| It's like I want to really read it, suddenly I'm on
| Twitter, Reddit, 9gag, IG, etc.
|
| It happens in a matter of seconds to minutes and I don't
| even remember how I opened an app/website.
|
| I can dampen this effect a bit by blocking websites and
| uninstalling apps, but then I zone out in my mind and don't
| remember what I read.
| ravenstine wrote:
| I suspect a lot of ADHD people become programmers because
| software can compliment the countless fleeting interests we
| have. That said, programming _as a career_ is still more
| challenging to us because non-ADHD programmers are more
| likely to succeed with numerous responsibilities and more
| complex and boring tasks. The more an ADHD programmer
| advances, the fewer of his immediate peers will have ADHD.
|
| This is one of the reasons why I will refuse a job title that
| is greater than senior engineer. I know in my heart of hearts
| that being a staff or lead engineer will be bad for everyone.
| I'm not even particularly stellar as a senior engineer, but I
| can at least sustain it.
|
| Reaching this point can be astonishing to the undiagnosed
| ADHD programmer. For the first handful of years into their
| career, their shortcomings were either dismissed as
| inexperience or covered for by coping mechanisms. In my
| experience, the coping mechanisms start to buckle once you're
| a senior level programmer.
|
| Get a diagnosis ASAP if you suspect you have ADHD. Medication
| and other things can definitely help. I also think there's
| nothing wrong in figuring out just how much mental capacity
| you have to give to your job and not exceeding it, even if
| that means rejecting prestige.
| k__ wrote:
| Thanks.
|
| Yes, I'm rejecting well paying jobs constantly because I
| couldn't bear to be employed and working 40h a week again.
| swozey wrote:
| My problem with programming (of which I've been trying to
| really do decent at for years but failing) + ADHD is my
| memory is absolutely trash. I'll spend a week or two
| working on an app and then put it down for a month and it
| takes me a day just to get rolling with it again because I
| basically learn/work by brute forcing things to work as
| opposed to remembering concepts that would make it work
| without having to do so.
|
| It's frustrating and makes me often give up. I work in Ops,
| so it's not a day to day thing for me to write any code.
| Thankfully with all of the fires and different things to
| work on in Ops I think it's a very good fit for an ADHD
| person.
| k__ wrote:
| Tooling helped a bit.
|
| Debuggers or things like Sentry and Honeycomb. Basically
| everything that gives me runtime insights to the
| software.
|
| Using static types and tests to ensure every dumb change
| I make gets caught somewhere.
| llamaLord wrote:
| In my experience, companies that have ADHD founders or CEO's
| tend to have an unconscious bias towards hiring other people
| with neurodivergant traits.
|
| We think differently, and tend to value others with similar
| "differences". The trick is avoiding an ADHD/Aspie
| monoculture. You need some people around to do the important,
| but less shiny stuff.
| aatd86 wrote:
| Out of curiosity, do you have intrusive thoughts?
|
| Or if you think about your thoughts calmly, at a distance,
| what pops up?
|
| When you try to imagine let's say a chess board and the
| pieces on it, does it look clear to you? Or do you have
| difficulties controlling your internal visualization?
|
| (if anyone also with ADHD wants to answer, feel free)
| k__ wrote:
| I have intrusive thoughts.
|
| When I try to phantasize something to calm myself down for
| sleep, I often end up thinking about something embarrassing
| or hurtful from the past. I can't control it, it just
| happens and when I notice it, I alread ruminates some time
| about it and don't know how I got there.
|
| But besides that, I don't have problems to visualize things
| in my mind. I just have to do it consciously, most of the
| time I think in concepts.
| waboremo wrote:
| Haha, freelancing ADHD is a classic! We seek being our own
| boss so we don't have to be forced to do what we cannot, only
| to then intensely struggle completing tasks we know we are
| capable of due to executive dysfunction, and then feel so
| much shame and guilt over a struggling freelance business
| leading to even more restlessness!
|
| Anyways definitely seek a specialist, there are many options
| and even if it's not ADHD they've got access to a lot of
| really great resources to cope with what you do struggle
| with.
| k__ wrote:
| I'm not struggling, yet, but, when I think what I could do
| with more than 5h of work a week, I get sad.
| schrodinger wrote:
| I'm a late ADHD diagnosis (37 now, diagnosed 35) and one thing
| I noticed is that I needed way less than they would prescribed.
| I was given 2 15mg tablets a day, and I would take 1/4 of one
| once in a morning, maybe twice a week. It has been life
| changing, for days when I need to work through a to-do list
| rather than something intrinsically motivating. But if I had
| continued with the prescribed does, I would have stopped--since
| it had so many side effects.
| ryandvm wrote:
| In my experience, most ADHD is really just a case of "I have
| limited willpower for extremely boring shit." Give me something
| interesting to do and I can work on it non-stop for 12 hours.
|
| The problem is that most jobs and almost all schooling is flat
| out incompatible with being an easily distractible person. I
| think it's just a phenotype that doesn't work well in the
| traditional professional environment.
|
| And yes, Adderall will help you focus on boring shit.
|
| [Source: I'm clinically diagnosed with ADHD)
| Arcanum-XIII wrote:
| Hey, why don't you try harder is what I've heard all my life.
| I can't. I've tried. I failed. I lost a lot of things. Made a
| lot of mistakes due to focusing on the wrong thing at the
| wrong time (most recently nearly got heavily hurt with a mill
| although I know I need to be very careful and I was fully
| engaged)
|
| So no, it's not only with boring task. I'd love to. My life
| would be far easier.
|
| Heck I can have hyper focus on boring task because it's
| relaxing.
|
| So no. It's not only will with boring task :(
| boomskats wrote:
| > In my experience, most ADHD is really just a case of "I
| have limited willpower for extremely boring shit."
|
| I'm really happy that ADHD has had such a limited impact on
| your life experience. However I think your statement is an
| unfair oversimplification & reads like a dismissal, whether
| you meant it to read that way or not. Very minor distinction,
| but phrasing it as 'most of MY ADHD' would have been much
| better.
| trophycase wrote:
| I also think there is a common problem that people are
| addicted to stimulation and novelty. As soon as something
| doesn't give that dopamine hit of being new or interesting,
| something else has to be found to replace it. I think this
| addiction is _very_ common in society today and manifests in
| internet and device addiction
| fsociety wrote:
| Idk my experience is much different. On the weekend, I would
| have a list of games I _really_ wanted to play. Boot one up,
| play for a few minutes, feel like I should be playing a
| different one, switch and repeat.
|
| Or I would have hobbies or activities I would want to do. But
| would end up in the same cycle.
|
| Then at the end of my weekend I would feel down because I
| spent the entire past two days constantly task switching with
| zero enjoyment.
|
| But on Adderall I am able to sit down and enjoy the first
| game / hobby I pick.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Yes willpower is too simple and too tied up with
| connotations of hardworkingness and virtue to adequately
| explain it. It's more like "don't have control over where
| attention is focused." Wanting to do it may make it more
| likely but there are other factors, and I can also easily
| get caught up in a task that is actively unpleasant.
| Unmedicated the focus goes where it wants to go, not where
| I want it to go; but not necessarily nowhere either.
|
| And ADHD people in my experience aren't worse at activities
| that do require what I would call simple willpower. Things
| like race cycling or endurance running, where persisting
| through discomfort and even pain are necessary.
| Yiin wrote:
| In my experience, simply being "not boring" is not enough.
| Usually for me it needs to have at least three qualities of
| the following four: pressure, interest, competition, and
| novelty. If a game is interesting but lacks competition or
| novelty, I may start playing it, but it's unlikely I'll
| continue for more than 15 minutes.
| alwillis wrote:
| Same. Novelty (or something "innovative") and competition
| are huge drivers for me to focus on something.
| herdyderdy wrote:
| Has this helped long term and repeatedly? I have that same
| struggle of switching between things all my life even if I
| enjoy one activity a lot. Very occasionally I do find
| something I can sit and enjoy for hours but it is rare.
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| That sounds somewhat like depression/anxiety paired along
| with ADHD. In adult ADHD they can often be very intertwined
| because by the time you've reached adulthood you have a
| history of impulsive decisions or bad time management to
| regret. Or perhaps it's just a symptom of ADHD combined
| with aging. I don't know about you but "hyperfocus" seemed
| to come much easier when I was younger which I associate
| with being less aware of my shortcomings.
| wincy wrote:
| I am not depressed and experience the exact same weekend
| malaise of the person you're responding to described.
|
| I found an exceptional game last weekend that I played
| through. I laughed, I cried, it was fantastic. I spent a
| lot of my free time on it, and beat it.
|
| This weekend I was just a little disappointed I couldn't
| wipe my brain and play that game again.
|
| I don't think that's depression, it's just being
| unwilling to put up with a game or activity being boring.
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| Yeah for sure, I wouldn't ever say anything is truly
| universal. Just a trend I've noticed with my own ability
| to focus on even things I do enjoy and in my own
| experience it can be difficult to untangle things when
| you have a comorbidity of depression, ADHD and anxiety
| which is pretty common in adults.
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| I think the clinical way to describe what you're saying is
| "executive function disorder". Some ADHD researchers believe
| this is a much better way to describe it and
| distractability/inattentiveness are just noticeable symptoms
| of that root cause.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I am having this issue at work, and have throughout my
| career, come to think of it.
|
| Give me a challenge, AND all the tools to conquer it, and I
| can get it done. Give me a lab environment with the servers
| and scripting tools I need to automate something, and I'll
| put it all together.
|
| Hamstring me by not giving me the tools I need, make the
| barrier to accomplishment too much, or give me really boring
| work without some kind of clear path, and I lock up.
|
| I can play Factorio for 12 hours a day when I get my yearly
| mood for it. When I am assigned a cool automation task with
| the tools available to BUILD it, I can run with it. Too bad
| my current job, a multi-billion dollar software company,
| can't spare me a few VM licenses without me jumping through
| hoops.
|
| Oh, and Adderall can help, but it makes me so anxious and
| even more impulsive once I'm done with work.
| itronitron wrote:
| >> Hamstring me by not giving me the tools I need, make the
| barrier to accomplishment too much, or give me really
| boring work without some kind of clear path, and I lock up.
|
| I'd like to point out that, at least in the first two
| cases, the workplace is hoping you will lock up and the
| system is functioning as intended. This isn't a shortcoming
| on your part.
|
| If you still feel compelled to be productive in those
| instances then a fun game is to dig into your employer's
| policy/security/IT hoops in order to identify the hidden
| workarounds in which you can get stuff done.
| brazzledazzle wrote:
| One thing that worked for me with the anxiousness is
| pairing stimulants with something like hydroxyzine. Taking
| half of a dose 1-2 times a day when you feel that helps
| smooth the edges quite a bit.
| TrevorJ wrote:
| Guanfacine is a non stimulant med, might be worth talking
| to your doc about.
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| >So far I've had "nice to meet you" calls with six or seven of
| the people on this team. And nearly half of them mentioned "by
| the way, I have ADHD, just so you know."
|
| Is this a generational thing? I mean, are these people in their
| early 20s? I'm in my 30s and would never say anything about my
| mental health in a phone call with a stranger unless my boss is
| bringing up this subject with me on a one-on-one.
| grayclhn wrote:
| Wow, it's almost like ADHD is independent of mental health.
| citruscomputing wrote:
| It can be relevant in the context of "this is how I work
| best, this is how to work with me best, these are the areas
| I'd appreciate a little more patience from you on." If you
| know what ADHD is, someone saying they have it is pretty good
| shorthand for all that.
|
| That said, I still haven't brought it up with anyone at work
| because of the stigma around it. It's tiring pretending it's
| not a problem for me though.
|
| I think you're right that it's a generational thing. More
| people know what it is, are less judgemental, or know they
| have it themselves. Also, a lot of people don't see it as
| about mental health in the same way e.g. depression or BPD
| is. (Unsure if that's what you were implying though!)
| [deleted]
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| There is strong evidence that ADHD is overdiagnosed
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8042533/
|
| And of course, there is the issue of drug-seeking - for
| increased concentration and focus, for fun, or some other
| reason. And many doctors suspect patients of drug-seeking.
| Symptoms can easily be faked and are difficult to spot.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3173757/
| https://healthland.time.com/2011/04/28/faking-it-why-nearly-...
| astrange wrote:
| ADHD diagnosis involves interviewing your parents about what
| you were like as a child. If they're skipping that it's
| because they don't feel like doing it.
| JackMcMack wrote:
| 1) That "ADHD is overdiagnosed" metastudy is frequently
| referenced, but always for the wrong reasons:
|
| "Overdiagnosis is defined here as occurring when a person is
| clinically diagnosed with a condition, but the net effect of
| the diagnosis is unfavorable. Misdiagnosis (when a child is
| incorrectly labeled with an ADHD diagnosis instead of an
| alternative condition) and false-positive diagnosis (when a
| subsequent clinical encounter reveals a wrong initial
| diagnosis) are not the focus of this article."
|
| Unfavorable here is:
|
| - medication can have side effects
|
| - it might be used as an excuse to stop trying/caring
|
| - there's a social stigma
|
| 2) Your second link provides no evidence of drug-seeking
| behaviour. It only claims that it's possibly to get a high
| score on an ADHD checklist with fake answers. It makes no
| claim that people without ADHD actually seek an ADHD
| diagnosis to get prescription stimulants.
|
| Note that I'm not claiming they aren't, just that this
| article doesn't support that claim.
|
| 3) The third link is just an article on time with the
| headline that 1 in 4 adults who seek treatment are faking it.
| I can't find any reference to this number in the article
| body, nor a link to the paper.
|
| I think this is the paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publi
| cation/46282569_Effectiven...
|
| Color me surprised: this one does actually support the claim
| that 22% are exaggerating symptoms. There are of course some
| limitations to this study. And it makes no claim that those
| that are exaggerating symptoms are doing so to seek
| medication (again, I'm not claiming otherwise).
|
| The good news is that there are methods to identify these
| patients. And given that this study is from 2010, I hope that
| those are in use to aid with (mis)diagnosis today.
|
| Mitchdoogle, do you have any other evidence to support your
| claim of overdiagnosing and drug-seeking? In the future,
| please take the time to read through the articles you link.
| And please take the time to read the last paper before you
| reply.
| vsareto wrote:
| >There is strong evidence that ADHD is overdiagnosed
|
| >https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8042533/
|
| That's for children and adolescents just fyi
| drewcoo wrote:
| > many doctors suspect patients of drug-seeking
|
| And many of us (and many, many published articles) suspect
| big pharma of making docs drug pushers.
|
| So many fingers pointing in all directions!
| xyzzy4747 wrote:
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| > Also these same people with "ADHD" never lose focus when they
| are driving, snowboarding, skateboarding, riding a motorcycle,
| on the witness stand at court, etc.
|
| Yes, they do.
|
| > In adults with ADHD, most studies investigated whether there
| was a correlation with traffic accidents with the patient as
| the driver of a motor vehicle (car or motorbike), and found a
| significant association.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342...
| Eumenes wrote:
| Agreed. The amount of ADHD propaganda posted here is alarming.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| So much of this is familiar, the timeliness, forgetfulness, the
| blurting things out, but especially that feeling of "FFS, why
| can't I do these things like everyone else, I suck".
|
| I was incredibly lucky, once I got into software dev, that my
| untreated ADHD often manifested in hyperfocus, so I could deliver
| large amounts of business value in bursts, that meant my other
| foibles were tolerable.
|
| Of course, my spending 20 hours of a day hacking on something for
| a week was very hard on my family, but at least I stay employed.
|
| I much prefer being medicated. The symptoms are still there, but
| manageable. I still need lists to ensure I don't forget things,
| but at least with medication I a) remember I have a list and b)
| remember to use it.
|
| So many times previously, people would say "Just write a list,
| how hard is that?"
|
| It was quite hard.
| codegangsta wrote:
| One thing I think a lot of folks don't realize about ADHD is
| that even with treatment, there is still a whole skillset to
| pick up regarding organization, self-management related to time
| etc. Many neurotypical people pick those things up over time,
| but those of us who are diagnosed late usually need to develop
| those skills, often for the first time.
|
| That said, gaining those skill and having treatment feels like
| a superpower
| jedinix wrote:
| This is a very important point which I don't see repeated
| enough in discussions about managing and treating ADHD. As
| you noted, it's particularly important for those diagnosed
| later in life.
|
| Treatment - whether medication or otherwise - will help you
| to focus, but it won't magically teach you organization, time
| management, note-taking, active listening, etc.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| > "Just write a list, how hard is that?"
|
| 1. Remember to keep a list
|
| 2. Remember to update the list
|
| 3. Remember to check the list
|
| 4. Start a new list because I can't remember if / why I care
| about anything on the old list
|
| (Personally, I've never started a list but I can imagine how it
| would go.)
| adynaton wrote:
| I feel personally attacked by this comment. I've tried to
| used every single type of note taking software (even the
| second brain types) and I've failed because I always forget
| to use it.
| TrevorJ wrote:
| I had the same issue for years, and silly little thing that
| has helped me a lot is that I put a reminder in my calendar
| that simply says "Just because you stopped using a system,
| doesn't mean the system is bad". That's enough to prompt me
| to 'get back on the horse' when I fall off versus spending
| a week looking for a better horse.
|
| On balance, this shift in my attitude means I definitely
| use more simple organizational tools more often than I did
| in the past, and that has certainly helped my productivity.
| kneebonian wrote:
| Not to mention how onerous it is to remember to keep the list
| up to date consistently, it sucks.
| senectus1 wrote:
| This sounds like me, but i just keep putting it down to my
| poor time keeping skills.
| zagrebian wrote:
| > Some people, says Winter, only tend to do what they're
| interested in - "what lights up our brains" - which causes them
| to de-prioritise other urgent tasks.
|
| I'm definitely guilty of this.
| 666lumberjack wrote:
| Welp, this is very relevant to me. Diagnosed with ADHD
| inattentive type ~4 months ago at 26, unfortunately too late to
| save myself from an inescapable spiral at work and a firing.
|
| Definitely would recommend anyone who has serious suspicions
| about themselves to get checked out, especially if you found
| academics intuitively trivial through the 'typical' diagnosis
| years of ~8-14.
| viburnum wrote:
| I feel like ADHD is just normal for a huge percentage of people
| but the people gifted with an abundance of concentration are
| extremely overrepresented in medicine and management positions.
| itronitron wrote:
| Close but not quite. The issue is that people in management
| positions are overly invested in finding flaws in other people,
| especially those people that may have some leverage over them
| by virtue of having particular skills (technical or otherwise.)
| [deleted]
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