[HN Gopher] What happens to a smartphone when it gets stolen?
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What happens to a smartphone when it gets stolen?
Author : cortical-cull
Score : 197 points
Date : 2022-12-11 12:44 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (hachyderm.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (hachyderm.io)
| patrickdavey wrote:
| This was great! It prompted me to check what the story is for
| Android/Google. I hadn't realised there's
| https://www.google.com/android/find which lets me find/lock/wipe
| it.
|
| Also extra handy: I can make it ring _even if silent with my one-
| plus physical silent switch on_. I'd not actually worked out how
| to do that before, and it has been very annoying the odd time I
| lose it and it's silent.
|
| Very good.
| ethotool wrote:
| Apple needs to make it impossible to be stolen and sold for
| parts.
| Xylakant wrote:
| That's what apple has largely done and that's what a lot of
| small repair stores complain about. Requiring an AppleID to
| activate a phone, tying components to the crypto processor on
| device, etc. all is part of this - and it just happens to make
| repairs harder, used parts worthless, ... There's a pretty big
| tradeoff here.
| windowsrookie wrote:
| Most components in an iPhone today are programmed to the device
| and will either warn you with an on screen prompt, or refuse to
| work at all if you move them to another iPhone. It hasn't
| seemed to stop theft tho, I suspect a large number of people
| are falling for the iCloud phishing scams after their device is
| stolen.
| Cloudef wrote:
| They already have the second bit solved. Apple is the king of
| anti-repair
| sowbug wrote:
| Are there examples of successful technical solutions to the
| societal problem of theft?
| from wrote:
| Any anti fraud mechanisms that banks have? They probably have
| saved hundreds of billions of dollars total. Though obviously
| they aren't perfect.
| CharlesW wrote:
| This is one. Data shows that Apple's technical solutions and
| policies (e.g. disallowing repair for phones marked lost or
| stolen) caused iPhone thefts to plummet when they were rolled
| out, and were so effective that they became a model for the
| rest of the industry.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/23/apple-
| iph...
|
| _" Thefts of iPhones in London fell by 24% in the first five
| months of 2014 compared to 2013, while in San Francisco they
| fell by 38%, and in New York by 19%, according to data from
| the New York attorney general's 'Secure Our Smartphones'
| initiative, following the introduction of the kill switch -
| officially called "activation lock" - feature in the iOS 7
| mobile software which lets owners remotely wipe and lock
| their phones if they are stolen."_
| RektBoy wrote:
| I don't understand the problem here. Living in EU country.
| Nobody would ever try to steal so publicly from you. There will
| be some deeper problem in London, hmm hmm hmm. I wonder what is
| it.
| tmtvl wrote:
| Rampant poverty due to Brexit?
| hahaxdxd123 wrote:
| Speak to any tourists visiting your country whether or not
| anyone would try to steal from you.
| Normille wrote:
| Lesson No.1: Don't use your phone in public while strolling
| about, oblivious to what's going on around you.
|
| I used to cycle to work down a pavement which was divided into
| half for walking on and half cycle lane. I lost count of the
| number of times I had to swerve round people strolling along
| [often in the dedicated cycle lane part] with their phone either
| clamped to the side of their head or held out in front of them
| watching something on screen --completely oblivious to the world
| around them.
|
| If I'd been of a criminal disposition, I could have trivially
| plucked the phones from these people's hands and been away and
| out of reach before they even realised what was going on. And I
| could have harvested 3 or 4 phones every day this way. And
| that's, just commuting to work, not actually seeking out victims.
|
| I generally have sympathy for anyone who gets their 'stuff'
| stolen. But not much I'm afraid for the kind of people who can't
| even walk down the street without their fucking phone permanently
| attached to their face. Completely ignorant of the fact they're
| getting in other people's way and almost causing accidents,
| wherever they go.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| That was a common crime in London pre-covid. People on mopeds
| (iirc) pinching phones out of peoples hands.
|
| I don't know if it's still happening now. It's either not in
| the news or I've been oblivious to it.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Not to be cocky but a few things:
|
| - First, I think one of the weak spots is people having way too
| big phones for what any single hand of theirs can confidently
| cling on to
|
| - Secondly, I think some paranoia-like awareness of your
| surroundings whenever you're outside is more warranted than
| people want to accept. This includes a quick look up from your
| phone and at the people all around yourself every few seconds
|
| - Third, to the prospective thief: I don't think a bicycle is a
| great choice to try and steal my phone on in a fully crowded city
| like friggin London. I sure as hell will catch up to you
| sprinting on my feet quicker than you can get the hell out of the
| area without crashing
| incone123 wrote:
| Motorcycle/moped has been the popular vehicle for street theft
| in London for a while. Quite regular reports of phones snatched
| out of people's hands by the passenger on a passing bike.
| blamazon wrote:
| Totally agree on the phone size thing. I can't imagine someone
| grabbing my small phone out of my hand in a swift move while
| texting one handed, best case scenario they knock it to the
| ground.
|
| An e-bike already moving at speed on a roadway is going to
| outpace pretty much any human very fast. You have no chance to
| catch up in the submission post's described scenario, IMO. Once
| they're out of sight the game is over.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| In the case of actual e-bikes that are driven on the roadway,
| you would have to be weary of one unusually closing in on
| you. I don't see how one would miss that, also you shouldn't
| even be standing in reach of the roadway.
|
| But if you mean those e-scooters, then those aren't
| significantly faster than bicycles and would have to yield to
| car traffic soon enough for me to catch up on foot.
| blamazon wrote:
| I mean E-bikes on roadways. In the posted article the
| author is replying to a text while waiting to cross a
| roadway. Common enough scenario, I do that all the time and
| don't flinch at passing bikes because bike phone snatching
| isn't a thing where I live.
| nuker wrote:
| Apple Care+ with Lost and Theft is the way.
| windowsrookie wrote:
| One thing that isn't clear is does Theft and Loss protection
| still apply when you're traveling outside your home country? I
| can't seem to find any info on the AppleCare page that confirms
| this.
| SXX wrote:
| I havent confirmed this in practice, but I do asked several
| agents and supervisors at Apple support and they state it
| does work when travelling internationally. What they said
| though is that in some countries they'll only be able to ship
| new device to your home address in country where you bought
| insurance.
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _One thing that isn 't clear is does Theft and Loss
| protection still apply when you're traveling outside your
| home country?_
|
| Seemingly. From the U.S. agreement:
|
| https://aigtheftandloss.com/static/media/ExNY.72830d3f.pdf
|
| _" If service is not available for the Equipment in a
| country outside of the United States, You may be responsible
| for shipping and handling charges to facilitate service to a
| country where service is available. If You seek service in a
| country that is outside of the United States, You will comply
| with all applicable import and export laws and regulations
| and be responsible for all custom duties, V.A.T. and other
| associated taxes and charges."_
| gumboza wrote:
| Worth also reporting the IMEI as stolen here:
| https://www.imei.info/news/report-imei-number-lost-or-stolen...
|
| If they do bypass the activation lock and resell it, anyone
| buying a second hand device or parts can check it and the seller
| reported to local law enforcement for selling stolen goods.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Blocking via EMEI should be routine as soon as reported stolen
| to police and network.
|
| In fact, I think this is why organised operations quickly ship
| stolen phones abroad: the EMEI may be blocked and tracked in
| UK/EU but it won't be in China...
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| Blocking the IMEI presumably greatly reduces the value of the
| stolen phone, at least.
| from wrote:
| UAE China Russia India and almost all of Africa are not in
| GSMA blacklist program which means the phones still work
| there (and iPhones sell for a premium in some of those
| places as well). Find my iPhone lock is very effective in
| making it less profitable unless they are able to phish the
| password out of you.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| I wonder why the Chinese government doesn't force carriers to
| block stolen EMEIs.
| from wrote:
| Why would they? This is just one of the many ways they take
| advantage of everyone else. Most phone snatchings aren't
| happening in China so this is an easy way to reduce their
| import bill for phones.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| I don't know if they do, but that's not the point. The
| point is I'm reasonably sure that there isn't a global
| database of stolen phones.
| from wrote:
| There is and it is called the GSMA blacklist but as you
| would expect none of the countries these phones end up in
| participate in that database.
| Oxidation wrote:
| One also wonders where all the cheap "refurbished" phones
| come from on eBay.
|
| Are they actually legit (assuming a big seller, not a 20-star
| account), or are they "laundered" stolen phones?
|
| A lot of them have Chinese ROMs, are they the reverse: stolen
| in China and sold abroad? Or just arbitrage of regional
| pricing?
| kotaKat wrote:
| One note with WiFi only Apple equipment (mainly iPads
| here); there are ways to use diagnostic cables and software
| to 'rewrite' the device serial numbers to 'bypass'
| activation lock.
|
| It requires a 'clean' serial, WiFi MAC, and Bluetooth MAC,
| the three things a WiFi only device uses to authenticate to
| Apple during setup.
|
| iPhones and other cellular connected devices? Nah, not
| gonna happen, though there are weird jailbreak-esque
| 'bypasses' that will get the phone past setup, albeit still
| 'locked' when you reset.
| barbacoa wrote:
| I'm sure ebay has their fair share of stolen goods. A lot
| of what you see sold as refurbished are returns and trade-
| ins. When you return an item for example, to Amazon, they
| don't restock it. Instead they throw it in a bin and
| auction it off by the pallet to second hand resellers.
| kornhole wrote:
| Location tracking rarely helps recover a phone or prosecute a
| thief. If you don't like being followed all the time, implement
| private phone tracking such as in Next cloud.
| 6510 wrote:
| At the train station we find peoples phones regularly. It is
| astonishing how dumb the process is for returning such a
| sophisticated piece of electronics.
|
| Any person who finds it can be expected to make some small effort
| to return it. Dropping it off at lost & found items is already
| pushing it.
|
| IMHO in locked state it should have a button to call the carrier
| and the carrier should make an effort to register a phone number,
| email or address. Iphones do have a lost mode but I've never seen
| it in action.
|
| A found phone is essentially a brick without any visible id code.
|
| So the real world process is now like that of all other dumb
| luggage. It goes to lost & found, you register the loss and wait
| for it to be found, dropped off, registered, if the item matches
| your description you get 5 days to pick it up where it was found,
| then it is send to a central location which could take a good
| while! Then you pay 15 euro to have it send back to you. Bank and
| id cards are destroyed. But how do you identify a brick? Expect
| to be without a phone for at least a week.
|
| You could be standing there in front of the closed doors but
| there is no way to return your belongings.
|
| There remains much to do in this service area.
|
| If there is a standard finders reward it might even be worth it
| for the thief to return it. I'd much rather pay say 30 bucks to
| get it back. The thief just switches it off and has it stripped
| for parts. If the standard reward is good enough people will make
| a serious effort getting it back to you.
|
| Truly wild would be if it could use the back camera to
| continuously scan a crowd to identify its owner. Draw boxes
| around the faces with a different color and a bleep for potential
| candidates so that one can walk towards them.
|
| Display a name or id number to broadcast over the train station,
| mall or airport announcement system.
| soheil wrote:
| One thing that jumped at me instantly when reading this was that
| it matters if you're a slender bodied person or a hulk of a dude
| walking down the street with your phone in your hand. If you're
| the former extra care and attention must be given specially in
| busy and unsafe places near metro stations.
|
| It also came off as wide eyed to keep referring to the thief as
| "they", most certainly the thief on the bike was a guy and
| keeping this in mind can be useful information and should have
| been at the top of this person's "pro tips".
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| I run a business dealing with used games retro games consoles,
| and a not-insignificant part of this involves buying and selling
| faulty items. E-waste chains, especially for devices like iPads
| and PlayStations, are ridiculously complex, international and
| informal.
|
| Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the thief here really was just
| a chav on a bike that flogged the phone off cheap to some guy he
| initially met on Facebook Marketplace. That guy probably paid a
| couple of quid to some random in India to attempt to unlock the
| phone remotely (without telling the buyer how he does it), and
| when that failed it would have been shipped to a contact in China
| who the buyer knew paid $x for a iPhone with an uncracked screen.
|
| Also interesting to see the difference in culture. In Australia,
| if you lose your phone (almost always from falling out of your
| pocket, I've never really heard of anyone having theirs stolen),
| you just call it every couple of hours until the person who found
| it picks up. Then, you fling them a bit of cash or booze when you
| go to pick it up and everyone's happy.
| [deleted]
| Bilal_io wrote:
| Same experience in my home country, Algeria. In most cases
| you'd call and someone would be happy to meet and give you the
| phone, and they won't take money. This happens even though most
| people don't have iPhones, and carriers don't lock phones, so
| technically it's easier to format the phone and use it or sell
| it.
| genghisjahn wrote:
| This has happened with me in the US twice. My wife lost her
| phone, daughter lost her phone. Made a call, "Sure we'll wait
| here." Got the phone back both times.
| 13of40 wrote:
| Back when the iPhone first came out, one of my friends got
| one. One day we ended up going out fishing on a boat with
| another guy and we all left our phones on the dock so they
| wouldn't get wet, and I signalled to my wife to pick them
| up. Apparently she didn't understand my hand gestures or
| whatever and left them there, and they disappeared. For the
| two junky flip phones there was a happy ending - someone
| dropped them in the window of a park ranger's truck - but
| the iPhone was never seen again.
| RektBoy wrote:
| >(almost always from falling out of your pocket, I've never
| really heard of anyone having theirs stolen),
|
| Lol, I wonder why?
| eric__cartman wrote:
| God I wish I lived in a country where that were the norm. And
| not have some crack head steal something to sell it for
| peanuts later.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| I think it was a joke about Australia being up-side down :)
| Uyuxo wrote:
| meindnoch wrote:
| Losing a smartphone today can have a profound impact on people's
| lives. You lose your ability to pay for things (unless you have
| physical cards with you); you lose access to your
| email/bank/github/etc. accounts protected by 2FA so you may not
| be able to work; you may lose your airline/train tickets (unless
| you have a physical copy with you) so you may not be able to
| travel.
|
| Maybe it's time for more severe punishments for phone theft? The
| slap on the wrist thieves get today doesn't seem like much of a
| deterrent, especially compared to the outsized harm this kind of
| crime causes to the victim as we rely more and more on
| smartphones for authentication.
| Kiro wrote:
| I don't understand how people recover from unexpectedly losing
| their phone. How do you get back into your accounts with 2FA?
| windowsrookie wrote:
| I specifically have multiple phones setup with my Google
| Authenticator account for this reason. If you don't have a
| spare phone, I recommend purchasing a used old android phone
| for $30 just for the peace of mind.
| patrickdavey wrote:
| Just curious - what's wrong with backup codes?
| Too wrote:
| If you are really paranoid. Backup codes can be copied
| without you noticing. Even bigger risk if you bring them
| along while traveling, or worse, leave unattended in
| hotel room.
|
| The Authenticator apps store keys in Secure Enclave (or
| at least I hope so). Which in themselves are 2fa by not
| being copyable thus requiring direct access to unlocked
| phone before using.
|
| Of course that also comes with bigger risk of you locking
| yourself out, by forgetting Lock Screen password or phone
| getting bricked for some stupid reason. Printed paper
| don't have that problem, except can also easily be lost.
| schrodinger wrote:
| 1Password on a laptop can hold google auth keys
| piperswe wrote:
| My 2FA is all using Yubico Authenticator, so even TOTP codes
| are on my Yubikey rather than my phone. I keep my backup
| codes in 1Password in case I lose my keychain.
| worble wrote:
| There's a reason 2FA always gives you backup codes? If you
| didn't write them down that's on you.
| ghusto wrote:
| You know those backup codes they make you say you've printed
| before you can complete setup?
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| In a sense, humans already have to be cyborgs to function in
| modern society.
| meindnoch wrote:
| I guess you'd write an "Ask HN" post and hope that a Google
| engineer notices. Same for GitHub.
| layer8 wrote:
| Maintain a second device (doesn't have to be a phone) with
| your 2FA codes.
| Evan-Purkhiser wrote:
| Here's my solution: https://github.com/evanpurkhiser/recovery
| sowbug wrote:
| Similar: https://github.com/sowbug/quaid
| tinus_hn wrote:
| There should be more severe consequences for unlocking stolen
| devices, it's crime on the same level as SIM swapping by phone
| store employees.
| ghusto wrote:
| Good lord, no. I don't lose any of those things, not even the
| 2FA.
|
| > compared to the outsized harm this kind of crime causes to
| the victim as we rely more and more on smartphones for
| authentication.
|
| For goodness sake, push back! I didn't even allow for the
| presumption I have a phone to read QR codes for restaurant
| menus, because of where I saw that was heading. Never allow
| anyone or any place to presume they can rely on your smartphone
| for something they should be responsible for.
|
| I noticed places I work for started to try this, and put a stop
| to it right from the beginning by asking if they were going to
| start paying for my phone contract, and buy the phone from me,
| so I could buy another private one. Putting it in black and
| white makes it clear what's going on; which is work trying to
| get (a) free hardware, services, and (b) free work out of
| hours.
| amelius wrote:
| Shouldn't you be able to walk into a phone store, get a new one
| and automatically sync all your files, passwords, etc., then
| pay for the phone using that data?
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| Now you've got two vectors to get all the important data that
| lives on my phone: steal my phone, or convince a retail
| associate that you're me
| amelius wrote:
| You're assuming the worst possible implementation of that
| idea.
| r2p2 wrote:
| At least once we reach the point where we use passkeys
| everywhere - which as far as I understand is the safest
| authentication method? Then a new phone will not have the
| trusted keys since they are stored in the hardware of the
| stolen phone.
| tartoran wrote:
| Well, you need the phone to prove who you are. Out of luck...
| feet wrote:
| In what country is ID stored on the phone? Do people not
| carry licenses or IDs physically?
| lb1lf wrote:
| If my own anecdotal experience is anything to go by, we
| tend to carry IDs in the phone wallet case. Lose one,
| lose the other. Sigh.
|
| The worst part is, I know this is a terrible idea, and
| yet I carry all my eggs in the very same basket.
|
| At least I've had the good sense to leave my physical
| driver's licence in the car I use 99% of the time after
| we got a driver's licence app - I can now simply show the
| police my cellphone with a QR code and a control
| animation on it, and they can verify my licence class and
| expiry date on the spot.
| feet wrote:
| Maybe I'm weird then, I have a case with all my physical
| cards and I carry it in the opposite pocket from my phone
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| I'm one of the only people I know with a wallet style
| phone case with cards/id in it but I think I've just
| decided to go back to a separate wallet/card case. Will
| help thin down the phone too since I'll probably just go
| caseless.
| scarface74 wrote:
| My wife and I are doing the digital nomad thing flying across
| the US and staying in hotels. I've thought about what would
| happen if I lost my phone and/or my wallet.
|
| - I have a cellular equipped Apple Watch and iPad that both
| independently get regular SMS messages along with my phone.
|
| - I can sign into my Mac and get text messages.
|
| - I have a second wallet in my bookbag with a few lesser used
| credit cards, a little cash and my passport card for ID
|
| - my wife is my backup recovery source if I get locked out of
| my account.
| boulos wrote:
| > I can sign into my Mac and get text messages.
|
| Doesn't this actually depend on _relaying_ the SMS from the
| phone? I don 't think delivery works if your phone isn't in
| range of the laptop.
|
| Even the watch seems to require the relay to work for
| receiving [1]:
|
| > To receive SMS, MMS, or push notifications from third-party
| apps on your cellular Apple Watch, your paired iPhone must be
| powered on and connected to Wi-Fi or cellular, but it doesn't
| need to be nearby. You also need to be signed in to iMessage
| on your iPhone to use Messages on your watch.
|
| [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205547
| scarface74 wrote:
| Well shit you're right.
| WiggleGuy wrote:
| > you lose access to your email/bank/github/etc. accounts
| protected by 2FA
|
| I wonder if apps like Microsoft Authenticator are better for
| this. They sync 2fa codes to your Microsoft account. Naturally,
| the question becomes "Doesn't that make Microsoft a single
| point of failure? If someone know's your Microsoft password,
| they can get into your Authenticator and all your other
| accounts basically don't have 2FA anymore"
|
| From what I can tell it doesn't look like Microsoft has an
| answer to this, unless there's something obvious I'm missing.
| On the bright side, though, if you lose your phone, your 2FA
| codes aren't lost.
|
| Choices, choices.
| trelane wrote:
| > They sync 2fa codes to your Microsoft account.
|
| This seems like a large amount of trust to be placing in
| Microsoft, since anyone with access to your account would
| also have access to your shared secret for every site. I
| would wager that they also would have access to your
| communications medium and password stores as well, in most
| cases, since you'd likey have bought in to the wider
| ecosystem.
|
| Or do they encrypt it client side?
| WiggleGuy wrote:
| Restoration of the 2fa codes onto a new device doesn't seem
| to require communication with the original device, so I
| don't think there's client-side encryption going on.
|
| The Authenticator also has password vaulting features, but
| I agree that would be a bad idea for both your 2fa codes
| and your passwords to be in the same place (even worse if
| you use Outlook!)
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| Anticipating the nightmare a lost phone would cause me means I
| do not use my phone for payments, banking apps, or
| tickets/passes whenever I can get away with it. As for MFA, I
| have to grit my teeth every time my phone is the backup. Losing
| your phone is like losing your sight now.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| > You lose your ability to pay for things (unless you have
| physical cards with you)
|
| So don't do that. Always carry some cash and your debit and/or
| credit cards. Spread out the risk (especially when travelling).
|
| > you lose access to your email/bank/github/etc. accounts
| protected by 2FA so you may not be able to work;
|
| So don't do that. If you enable 2FA, have backups and recovery
| codes. Assume the phone will get lost at some point.
|
| > you may lose your airline/train tickets (unless you have a
| physical copy with you) so you may not be able to travel.
|
| So don't do that. When travelling I always take the printouts
| of the tickets along, even if I end up not needing them.
|
| Don't turn your smartphone into your everything. Treat it as a
| tool which can get lost, stolen, or broken.
| sublinear wrote:
| This is precisely why it's constantly argued that a phone is
| not a good 2nd factor for authentication. The auth data should
| be on a device that is basically worthless except for the data
| it holds which in turn is also inaccessible to someone else.
|
| Arguing for laws that are "tough on crime" is regressive and
| doesn't even solve the actual problem.
| concordDance wrote:
| > Arguing for laws that are "tough on crime" is regressive
| and doesn't even solve the actual problem.
|
| There are definitely tough on crime laws that would solve or
| mostly solve the problem. Unfortunately these will mostly be
| cases of the cure being worse than the disease (e.g.
| panopticon with facial recognition and use of face coverings
| leading to jail time).
| josephcsible wrote:
| > Unfortunately these will mostly be cases of the cure
| being worse than the disease (e.g. panopticon with facial
| recognition and use of face coverings leading to jail
| time).
|
| Not necessarily. Even if we didn't catch any more criminals
| than we do now, you could probably reduce the problem a lot
| just by making sure the ones we do catch actually go to
| jail.
| meindnoch wrote:
| >e.g. panopticon with facial recognition and use of face
| coverings leading to jail time
|
| Yeah. Or the inclusion of accurate GPS trackers in each and
| every phone, so law enforcement could track them down. That
| would be truly dystopian!
| schrodinger wrote:
| I always wonder why we don't use decoys more. Have
| seemingly tipsy girls stand waving their phone around for a
| cab and a cop a few feet hidden away. Then stiff penalty.
| It'll make people think twice about whether their "mark" is
| legit.
|
| Same for bike theft...
| pindab0ter wrote:
| Because, at least in some jurisdictions, this is regarded
| as soliciting illegal behaviour.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Which is just as ridiculous as saying that rape victims
| solicited illegal behavior by dressing provocatively.
| astura wrote:
| Perhaps phone theft is too petty a crime to make it worth
| it?
|
| In the 80s and 90s bait cars were ubiquitous in cities
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car
| meindnoch wrote:
| I could buy a used car for the price of an iPhone 14 Pro
| Max.
| ciphol wrote:
| Where are people going to keep that second device? In their
| wallet? The wallet is just as likely to be stolen as the
| phone.
| galago wrote:
| My employer provides Yubi keys, which have no value other
| than being an auth mechanism and fit on a keychain. I have
| one configured as a backup.
| coaltunbey wrote:
| How are "tough on crime" laws regressive? What do you think
| is the actual problem?
| josephcsible wrote:
| Since rich people are less likely to steal phones,
| increasing the punishment for phone theft affects rich
| people less, which means it's regressive.
|
| (I think using this argument to justify being soft on crime
| is ridiculous. I'm just pointing out what the argument is.)
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| I think they mean that just passing laws that make it
| punishable by say 30 years in prison to steal a phone would
| be regressive, since the punishment is in no proportion to
| the crime.
|
| However, what would actually be nice if, like people here
| have suggested, is that the police would actually bum off
| to retrieve stolen phones, bikes, etc and then deliver
| whatever appropriate penalties to the perpetrators if
| found.
|
| Doesn't matter if it's only a small punishment so long as
| people get their stuff back and the thieves learn they'll
| be sought after.
|
| So basically, we don't need better laws here, simply
| enforcement of them.
| ajross wrote:
| > a phone is not a good 2nd factor for authentication
|
| That's an argument for a phone not being the best 2FA
| mechanism. The argument for phones as 2FA isn't predicated on
| them being optimal, it's predicated on them being (1) present
| in almost all cases and (2) easily used.
|
| Obviously yes, it would be safer if we'd all carry around
| password-locked yubikeys. But we aren't going to. We do have
| phones in our pockets, though.
| sublinear wrote:
| Since phones are now the primary computing device for most
| people, is it really a "2nd factor" though?
| ajross wrote:
| As conventionally defined, yes. The "first factor" is
| traditionally a password (or in the modern world, maybe
| password+working_email_address).
| Y_Y wrote:
| You are techincally correct, the best kind of correct,
| but just for balance I should mention that cavaliers like
| me end up merging the factors by having all their logins
| saved on their phones (modulo fingerprint prompts etc.).
| gregmac wrote:
| You can pretty much say the exact same thing about stealing
| someone's wallet or purse. There's a lot of travel advice to
| the effect of "don't keep everything in one place". A phone is
| no different.
|
| A phone at least has the benefit of being backed up. In theory,
| I could log into a couple accounts on a brand new phone and
| have access to everything within tens of minutes. Contrast to
| the hours of phone calls and weeks of waiting it takes if I
| lost my driver's license, passport, etc.
|
| And though a phone can be used for payments, it must be
| unlocked. Not true of the physical credit/debit cards (swipe or
| tap) or cash found in a wallet/purse.
|
| If you have non-backed-up 2FA tied to your phone, you should
| fix that. Batteries die, and phones can be physically damaged,
| bricked for some software reason (they're computers, after
| all), dropped into the ocean or off a cliff, or just
| legitimately lost (ie: falls out of pocket into the cracks of a
| car seat and battery dies).
|
| I won't weigh into the punishment-deterrent argument at all,
| I'm merely pointing out that in theory there's actually a lot
| _less_ disruption having your phone stolen vs having a wallet
| /purse stolen. Both suck, of course. Replacing a phone is
| almost certainly more expensive, but it should be significantly
| faster to recover from. And backup your 2FA.
| jacooper wrote:
| Thats a problem for people who use privacy roms, there is no
| "find my devices" from google, since there are no google services
| in the ROM, because thats the whole point of using it.
|
| Your best hope is basically not to have your phone stolen.
| Havoc wrote:
| I've seen the snatch phone from hand thing happen in London -
| happens insanely fast.
|
| Covid and the rise of ebikes have helped the crooks. Face
| coverings are more acceptable and silent ebikes can creep up on
| someone on a sidewalk and provide a sudden burst of acceleration
| to get away.
| projektfu wrote:
| Face coverings for cyclists and moped riders was pretty common
| in London even 20 years ago. Something about filtering diesel
| particles.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| The air quality in London is terrible, I was wearing a face
| covering there long before covid just because it would often
| trigger breathing issues.
| hhmc wrote:
| I don't think e-bikes have qualitatively changed this -- I've
| witnessed these snatchings for over 10 years in London and
| they're just as effective on a normal bike
| wereallterrrist wrote:
| Maybe this is helpful, I was just saved by Google/Android's
| implementation of this recently and wanted to offer a couple
| notes for folks that haven't had this misfortune yet...
|
| 1. Find My Phone is great, you can remote lock, wipe, and mostly
| importantly, add a custom message. The message I wrote for the
| cab driver in Mexico is /very/ different than what my default
| message would've been.
|
| 2. Don't get over-zealous about revoking Device Admin
| permissions. If you remove that privilege for Find My Phone, then
| it can't *really* lock down the phone the way you'd like (and
| probably can't initiate the full remote wipe). It's odd, it
| definitely puts the phone into a state where it looks and feels
| locked, but you can swipe down, access settings, get into the
| Google Account area and unlock it.
|
| Bonus thought for nomady/travely types:
|
| 3. Having your wallet stolen is damn near a living nightmare,
| especially if you're traveling or... 12 hours out from boarding a
| flight out of the country. Tips: Some credit card apps will let
| you access a "virtual number", and in lieu of that, a friend with
| a debit card can WesternUnion/MoneyGram you money nearly
| instantly (assuming you have some way of contacting them -
| without a phone / whatsapp contact, etc, that can be challenging
| - thank god I know my parent's cell phone numbers by heart)
|
| Last random thought -- I carry a bag/purse/fannypack on me
| basically always. From now on my new wallet has a keychain loop
| and is wallet-chained into my purse so I can't set it down
| accidentally. Maybe even something similar with a soon-to-be
| Pixel 7 Mini hopefully. The hassle is one thing, the inner shame
| and self-annoyance is another.
| penguin_booze wrote:
| Does anyone know of an unrolling app for Mastodon, like
| threadreaderapp.com for Twitter?
| blumomo wrote:
| How did the phone report the location from Shenzhen when the
| phone is wiped? Did they replaced the SIM card with a PIN free
| SIM with data? Why would they do it?
| manomanowicz wrote:
| The Find My network relays the lost message from the stolen
| phone via nearby apple devices. Airtags use this principle to
| locate itself despite only having bluetooth
| blumomo wrote:
| Finally I know, was always asking myself. Thanks!
| poszlem wrote:
| What I find incredible is that despite having precise location
| coordinates the police did not recover it. I think we
| underestimate the extent to which not capturing petty thieves
| influences people's trust in "the system" in general.
| kristopolous wrote:
| I've had two things stolen from me recovered and both times it
| was part of a larger sting operation.
|
| I'd imagine if the police followed this phone they'd find
| hundreds of phones and other stolen goods at the location.
|
| That's the exploit the criminals are working from: do the
| unenforced petty crime repeatedly as an occupation.
|
| It's probably More profitable for reducing crime to hunt those
| people down because they're doing it operationally whereas some
| perpetrator of a crime of passion isn't doing it multiple hours
| every night.
|
| Also, I'm not actually advocating for locking those people up
| so much as getting them on the right track. That kind of
| initiative and organization is admirable, just stop robbing
| people with it
| atyppo wrote:
| "Sting operation" makes you wonder which police lieutenant's
| wife's phone got stolen...
| whythre wrote:
| Usually you need a lot of information to justify a warrant
| and execute a sting, and it often involves more than one
| law enforcement organization.
| tragomaskhalos wrote:
| Totally agree. This is the essence of the 'broken windows'
| approach to crime prevention. Anecdotally (I live in north
| london) a large proportion of burglaries are committed by a
| small number of individuals, and in fact when a single gang
| were eventually apprehended a few years back it put an end to
| a serious spate of break-ins. When a mate was burgled in his
| area some years before that, the police found the perpetrator
| but did not pursue to prosecution as there was a sudden
| reprioritisation to anti-terrorist work. There is a
| disconnect between police priorities and the helplessness
| ordinary people feel when crimes that violate their homes and
| sense of security are not taken seriously.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Police are like a help desk, you need some juice to get
| escalated to someone who is empowered or gives a shit.
|
| The patrolman is there to take a report.
|
| In a case affecting me, a guy was stealing low value items from
| my porch every week. Solution: i got the surveillance video on
| TV and it caught the eye of a detective lieutenant who knew the
| guy.
|
| The easiest path to this sort of thing is to know cops and
| phone a friend. Otherwise, 500 people were grifted that day...
| nobody cares.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I can only speak for Swedish police and the current legal
| situation but if they had a location on my apartment building
| for example, it would not help them.
|
| My two buildings have over 128 households. And even if they got
| a fix on one gate, that's 16 households. And the law says you
| cannot enter anyones home without a court order here.
|
| So there's really no point in even coming over.
| nly wrote:
| Chances are these people have priors. Just cross reference
| the address with your criminal database and bobs your uncle
| rosnd wrote:
| That's hardly any basis to search their home.
| warning26 wrote:
| Once a criminal, always a criminal. I don't understand
| while we allow criminals back into society; if someone
| chose to commit a crime once, there's no reason to think
| they won't apply that same calculus again and again.
| pxx wrote:
| Is this Poe's law at work? I can't tell if you're mocking
| the grandparent or actually have this deranged viewpoint.
| withinboredom wrote:
| Are you being serious? I can't tell but I can't imagine
| why you would be serious. People getting out of prison
| have a huge stigma from people thinking this way and it
| makes reintegrations much harder than it should be.
|
| Anyway, most people are criminals just waiting to get
| caught. Most people speed, jay walk, go through red
| lights at least once in their life, unintentionally lie
| on tax forms, forget to declare things at customs, etc.
| You're probably a criminal, the odds are not in your
| favor... so, if you are serious, you should take a look
| in the mirror.
| chungy wrote:
| It's similar in the US. The police could ask nicely to come
| in without a warrant, but anyone can (and should!) decline.
| largepeepee wrote:
| It also depends on the degree of trust your community has
| with law enforcement.
|
| Small town where you know the cops by name? Sure.
|
| Incompetently ran large cities with adversary relationship
| with corrupt civil service? Maybe not.
| INTPenis wrote:
| Heh nicely, here the cops will use any tactic to get in.
| Because getting in they might see something that gives them
| further cause to investigate.
|
| They'll lean on the door, bang on the hinges, make you
| think they're going to break it down.
|
| But as long as they stay outside your door, and it's not
| reeking of weed or something, just refuse to open.
|
| For now, they're trying to overturn this constitutional
| protection due to gang violence lately.
| dataflow wrote:
| What about coming into the building/complex (but not the
| apartment), going near the GPS location, then using something
| like Bluetooth or WiFi to detect proximity to the device to
| figure out what to search?
| remram wrote:
| And then one? Searching the ~4 apartments that are close
| enough to be potential locations?
| diogenescynic wrote:
| >I think we underestimate the extent to which not capturing
| petty thieves influences people's trust in "the system" in
| general.
|
| The biggest reason I've stopped voting for democrats is because
| of this. If you ever experience being the victim of a crime in
| a city/state run by democrats it's a slap in the face how
| little the police care. Hit and run? "Submit a report online."
| Have a meth-head living in your garage and they're screaming
| violently for hours? "Call the non-emergency line--it's not
| illegal to be crazy." This can't be a effective way to run a
| city, but in California it's the norm.
| scarface74 wrote:
| On the other hand "harassing innocent minorities and the blue
| wall that lets police get away with everything hasn't exactly
| engendered trust either"
| diogenescynic wrote:
| Talk about a ridiculous straw man... logic like that is why
| I don't take democrats or left-wing politics seriously
| anymore.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So you want statistics?
|
| https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/racial-profiling-and-
| tra...
|
| https://sc.edu/uofsc/posts/2020/06/racial_disparities_tra
| ffi...
|
| https://civilrights.org/edfund/resource/nypds-infamous-
| stop-...
| diogenescynic wrote:
| You're not replying to what I actually said. You're
| wasting both of our time. Your first comment was a
| complete non-sequitur too.
| scarface74 wrote:
| How not? You're claiming that the reason people don't
| trust the police is because they don't go after petty
| crime - not because there is a history of corruption,
| targeting minorities, abusing power, and coverups
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| > What I find incredible is that despite having precise
| location coordinates the police did not recover it.
|
| I'm not sure how precise they really are, for the purpose of
| recovery anyway.
|
| One day, the police knocked on my door while I was staying at a
| hotel. They were looking for a just-lost iPad, and the "Find-
| My" feature put it right by my room.
|
| Problem is, the room was in a multi-story structure, and the
| pin, when I looked at it, was in the middle of the hotel (any
| so was my room).
| madengr wrote:
| flandish wrote:
| > petty thieves
|
| This is because the police in the system are, largely, more
| worried about going after crimes for larger
| numbers/institutions. IE: A city walmart will stage police, and
| pay for them.
|
| A police organization will focus on whatever channel the
| support comes from.
|
| In addition to being largely built on the idea of escalation
| instead of compassion.
|
| Look at the use of the word "petty" - to the person who's
| entire life is on that phone it is _not_ petty at all.
| rwmj wrote:
| The UK police are incredibly under-resourced because of
| austerity. They barely investigate most crimes.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I had an iPhone 4 stolen that I left at the gym that I was
| working at as a part time fitness instructor.
|
| I found the location of my phone with the then new feature. I
| called the police. They met me at the house where the phone was
| located. The person who lived at the house said he didn't take
| it. The police couldn't do anything.
|
| The catch is, the guy was telling the truth.
|
| The next morning, I looked up the owner of the house next door
| where the phone now reported it was. I called the owner who
| said it was a rental. He asked his tenants did they steal the
| phone. They denied it too. They were also telling the truth.
| But they did tell me that their neighbor actually worked at the
| YMCA where I left it.
|
| I called the manager at the YMCA and he had the person bring
| the phone back.
|
| So the moral of the story is that I falsely suspected two
| people of stealing my phone based on its location.
| jmaygarden wrote:
| I'm glad those police were exercising restraint. A similar
| situation gone wrong was in the news just last week.
|
| https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/epz9nm/colorado-
| grandma-...
| scarface74 wrote:
| I couldn't even imagine involving the police now over 10
| years later.
|
| But my Amex automatically covers any lost or stolen phone
| up to $800 as long as I pay the monthly bill with the card.
| aeturnum wrote:
| The work the police do has almost nothing to do with "having a
| general location of a crime." In a boring, trivial sense there
| is probably always a crime of some sort being committed in
| every large apartment building. In general, unless the stolen
| item is unique or special in some way, going in "to get it"
| will almost always be the most expensive option. People could
| be hurt, the police could get the wrong person, the item could
| be damaged, etc. Also you would probably not get your phone
| back! It would be evidence of a crime and in custody for a long
| time.
|
| I have a lot of critiques of the police, but I really don't
| think we have put them in a good position to retrieve stolen
| property AND I think trying to retrieve stolen property is
| generally a really inefficient way to make victims of crime
| whole.
| RektBoy wrote:
| They can't, because ehm... . So you can't arrest these people
| in UK. Also weapons are banned there, so can't even defend
| yourself. Just lay on the ground and let yourself to be mugged.
| UK logic is funny.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| The police in the UK don't see FindMy info as sufficiently
| precise for a search warrant.
|
| There's enough news stories about American police raiding the
| wrong address based on FindMy that the UK justice system simply
| refuses to see it as sufficient evidence.
|
| Which is partly why phone thieves in the UK get to operate with
| near impunity.
| [deleted]
| michael_vo wrote:
| I wonder if the lock screen could take a picture of the
| person trying to unlock - maybe only turned on when "find my"
| phone is activated. Could that be enough grounds for a search
| warrant?
| meindnoch wrote:
| Android phones used to do this.
| Gustek wrote:
| 12 years ago, when I just arrived in UK and was renting a
| room in a house, one day in the morning we got woken up by
| banging on the doors by police looking for one of our
| housemates. They kept asking him where is the phone, he
| showed them all phones he had but they were not the phone
| they were looking for.
|
| He was a door security in one of the clubs in central London
| and apparently a police officer lost their phone in that club
| last night and gps did point at our address so they assumed
| he stole it. They kept searching the whole house, including
| my room until they finally found the lost phone in another
| room. Another flatmate went to that club that night for a
| party together with security guy. Strangely after they found
| the phone they kept searching.
|
| In the end they finally told us they were not really looking
| for a phone but for a police badge that was lost together
| with the phone. The guy said he found only phone, I think he
| was laying but that is not part of the story. Point is, they
| have ability if they have motivation. Took them only few
| hours since party was over to come knocking, 7 officers, and
| do the search.
|
| I guess the security guy living in the area where GPS was
| pointing could be considered extra evidence but surly if with
| enough phones stolen and clear pattern of them going to the
| same area they could collect enough evidence.
|
| I think, they don't do it for each phone because they don't
| have resources and these are low priority not because they
| can't do it.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| A lost warrant card (the police badge in question) is a
| pretty huge deal apparently.
|
| You are correct though that stolen phones are deemed low
| priority, the term used for it is "volume crime".
|
| "Why don't the police use findmy" comes up nearly weekly on
| the /r/policeuk subreddit. Same answer every time - too
| inaccurate for a warrant, not enough priority to put the
| work in to develop further evidence to pursue a warrant.
| odiroot wrote:
| Police here are known for not pursing such crimes. I reported
| an attempted property theft to my local police, having caught
| the perps on my security camera. The police weren't even
| interested in the video.
| factsarelolz wrote:
| > attempted property theft
|
| > The police weren't even interested in the video.
|
| Why would the police want to see a video if no crime has
| taken place? What did you expect the police to do?
| meindnoch wrote:
| I guess if someone tries to shoot me in the head point
| blank, but the cartridge fails to fire and the perpetrator
| runs away, then everything is fine, since no crime was
| committed in the end.
| gumby wrote:
| This is a manifestation of the "broken windows" theory of
| policing, championed by Rudy Giuliani when he was mayor of NYC.
| The theory was that cracking down on minor crimes like
| vandalism, jaywalking, and the squeegee guys, more serious
| crime would be reduced. It was ludicrous as stated, of course,
| and has been debunked.
|
| But its real value was reassuring middle class voters that
| "something was being done: -- after all they could see it!
|
| It also meant a crackdown on the lowest level drug dealers and
| harassing young black men just minding their own business. This
| was largely invisible to most of the aforesaid middle class
| voters, but allowed cops to report great crime statistics
| without havinto take any risk by going after the real
| criminals.
|
| * not to be confused with the "broken windows fallacy" in
| economics.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Not true. What was done in the 1990s was very different than
| what it evolved to later, mostly after Giuliani.
|
| Like any metric driven process you need to be careful with
| the metrics. After awhile the compstat system became part of
| the internal political machinery of NYPD. It was a means to
| reward friends and punish rivals. People got stuck in the
| middle.
|
| So the equivalent of mid-level directors at NYPD did what
| people do - cooked the books. If they were expected to yield
| a 20% increase in citations, they'd find some bullshit way to
| get them. If they needed to reduce rapes, they would charge
| assaults.
|
| This happened because of poor governance and that the people
| who pioneered statistics driven policing were from the
| transit police and were able to overstep the normal
| bureaucracy.
|
| The incompetence of leadership and fostering of a toxic
| culture is continuing with the knee jerk responses. We're
| ignoring crime and fostering a broken culture in the police
| forces nationally.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Exactly. Broken windows theory...
| poszlem wrote:
| You will surely see some people here saying that the broken
| windows theory has been debunked (I used to be one of them),
| so that's why I did not use that phrase, but at the very
| least I don't think the equation for pursuing the thieves is
| "the phone is worth 1000 quid, the investigation is 2000,
| therefore it's not worth it". I think we are too heavily
| discounting people's lost trust in Police effectiveness that
| happens because of stories like that.
| Oxidation wrote:
| Reminds me of listening to an engineer justify removing a
| $5 protection IC (after component-shortage inflation) as
| the thing it was protecting was $3.
|
| No, if that $3 part takes an ESD discharge, the entire
| $1000+ assembly is now (as far as the customer is
| concerned) scrap and needs to be RMA'd and replaced or
| repaired at our expense and the customer will, quite
| correctly, think it's unreliable junk from now on.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Even if it was just a $5 part protecting only a $3 part,
| it still makes sense to keep it. The logistics of returns
| and customer support for even a small percentage of
| returns would potentially be worth it.
| Oxidation wrote:
| That would need careful cost-benefit analysis. My
| instinct is to keep the protection or find a way to
| retrofit cheaper/available parts too maintain it. But
| then I'm not in the cheap and shonky consumer tat
| business.
| valdiorn wrote:
| Sure, the investigation is worth more than a single phone,
| but you're pretty likely to find 50 phones.
|
| You're very, very unlikely to be robbed by someone who's
| doing it for the first and only time in their life. Most
| likely, you'll come across a gang of organized criminals,
| which you can now put in jail, and recover value worth tens
| of thousands of pounds, return it back to their owners,
| restore faith in "the system", and possibly uproot a major
| crime operation.
|
| It's such a massive fucking win I don't understand why they
| don't enforce it more.
|
| Pull a few officers of Twitter duty, and maybe do some real
| police work?
| underbrush wrote:
| The cost of handling an order of magnitude more cases is
| significantly expanding the service. Everyone wants
| excellent public police, health care or education when it
| affects themselves. But going from average to good to
| excellent public services take more and more effort. Few
| countries today are willing to have the long-term public
| commitment and taxes to make that a reality.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Somehow the priorities seem to be misplaced. On the
| London public transport, you're reminded every 3 minutes
| that you should report "unusual" behaviour to the police,
| including unwanted staring ("Call 61016 - See it, say it,
| sorted."), yet they're unable/unwilling to track down a
| stolen item worth ~PS1200 even with accurate GPS
| coordinates available.
| poszlem wrote:
| The issue in the UK is that the Police suffers from scope
| creep. The UK police force has been criticized for
| expanding its scope to include enforcing anti-hate crime
| laws and investigating "non-crime hate incidents." (hard
| to believe that the country that gave us Orwell came up
| with that phrase). This has diverted resources from more
| important tasks and led to the allocation of time and
| money towards activities such as painting their cars in
| rainbows and raising pride flags in public ceremonies.
|
| Whatever you think of those side-activities, I'm sure
| fewer people would have any problem with them if they
| were confident that their possessions would be recovered
| if stolen (and more important crimes prosecuted).
| Normille wrote:
| >The issue in the UK is that the Police suffers from
| scope creep. The UK police force has been criticized for
| expanding its scope to include enforcing anti-hate crime
| laws and investigating "non-crime hate incidents."...
|
| This ^^ People get frustrated with the fact that they
| report a robbery or a break-in and the police take no
| action. But then they read about court cases involving
| 'hate crimes' which consisted of nothing more than
| someone being called a name they found offensive, or a
| dog being taught to do a nazi salute.
|
| Obviously these cases are rare [that's why they make
| headlines], But the fact they happen at all doesn't do
| the police's reputation any favours, when there are
| 'actual' crimes being effectively ignored through claimed
| lack of resources.
| [deleted]
| underbrush wrote:
| There is no way to recover stolen possessions with a high
| degree of confidence as there are countless of those
| types of incidents all the time every day. Most police
| forces already have less resources than they could use
| for the more serious cases. Reliably handling lesser
| serious cases that are even more plentiful would be a
| large increase in activities and even larger increase in
| effort. And since a large part of the cost of public
| services are salaries it would mean a noticeable tax
| increase. Probably for a long time. Other than that what
| you are asking isn't really possible.
| throwaway858 wrote:
| It could be done if the thief, after having been found
| guilty, is then forced to pay a fine equal to the cost of
| the investigation and court costs.
|
| Yes, this could end up being a fine of $10,000 for
| stealing a $150 phone, but there is an argument to be
| made that it is justified (and just).
|
| What are the arguments against?
| poszlem wrote:
| One would be that people who steal $150 phones don't have
| $10,000 to pay for fines.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| None of the things you are complaining about have much of
| an operational impact on the British police.
|
| You know what does?
|
| The wholesale destruction of the NHS and ambulance
| services leading to the police being the first response
| to mental health issues.
|
| Police are the wrong agency to deal with this, but
| currently in the UK, the police are pretty much always
| the first (often only) to deal with MH issues and get
| people into care/section them etc.
| DanBC wrote:
| > but currently in the UK, the police are pretty much
| always the first (often only) to deal with MH issues and
| get people into care/section them etc.
|
| I can't talk about Scotland, Wales, or NI. But here's the
| data for England:
|
| https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-
| information/publications/sta...
|
| There were 34,000 detentions under the act. Of these,
| only 4,150 were detentions following a Section 135 / 136
| place of safety order (the bit of the Mental Health Act
| that the police can use).
|
| The CQC also have their "Monitoring use of the Mental
| Health Act" report here:
| https://www.cqc.org.uk/publications/monitoring-mental-
| health...
|
| This strengthens the point you're making. EG
| https://www.cqc.org.uk/publications/monitoring-mental-
| health... and
| https://www.cqc.org.uk/publications/monitoring-mental-
| health... both talking about the poor care recieved by
| patients as a result of the defunding of the NHS and
| social care systems.
| scarface74 wrote:
| That's been thoroughly debunked for years.
|
| https://news.northeastern.edu/2019/05/15/northeastern-
| univer...
| joemazerino wrote:
| Rather than allowing nerd academics sitting in ivory towers
| to control our conversation look outside. Have you lived in
| a city with high crime rates? I have and my friends/family
| yearn for the return of days to policing neighbourhoods.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Have you been a minority living in a neighborhood where
| "you don't look like you belong"?
|
| I had a house built in the most affluent county in the
| metro area and I make over twice the median income of the
| area - in GA - thanks to the fact that I work remotely
| for $BigTech.
|
| My family constantly were looked at suspiciously. The
| county was an infamous "sun down town" as late as the
| 80s.
|
| https://kaltura.uga.edu/media/t/1_958u30nt/86446941
|
| It's not as bad now as people have migrated in from the
| north and the county as grown. But those folks are still
| there.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| There's two things. Maybe it doesn't prevent further crime
| as well as targeted saturation does, but it sure is nice
| when the police show up when they are called. Most research
| focuses on the first but the second is what GP was
| referring to.
| scarface74 wrote:
| "targeted saturation" was no more than "harass minorities
| and the homeless".
|
| https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-broken-
| win...
| joemazerino wrote:
| Legal aid society -- the least worthy source when it
| comes to policing.
| scarface74 wrote:
| "Creator of 'Broken Windows' Policing Thought it May Lead
| to Racial Problems"
|
| https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/re
| vis...
|
| https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/broken-
| windo...
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Again we're talking about two different things. Target
| saturation vs broken windows. Pretty different
| scarface74 wrote:
| Yes I'm sure if the police used "targeted saturation" in
| my neighborhood where in the entire county it's only 3%
| Black, neither me or more likely my 6 foot 5 20 year old
| step son would be targeted for "looking suspicious".
|
| For reference, it's the most affluent county in GA (not
| saying much in the grand scheme of things) and I work
| remotely at $BigTech. So while I make over twice the
| median household income for the area, we still get looked
| at suspiciously.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I hear you, and that sucks. Targeted saturation is
| exactly that IF you live in an area with lots of crime:
| they look for areas where crime concentrates and do lots
| of extra stops and extra police presence. If you don't
| live in an area with lots of crime, it's not targeted and
| they're doing something else, probably not constructive.
| ls612 wrote:
| I think you underestimate the degree to which this is
| intentional on the part of "the system".
| ISL wrote:
| Apple ought to be able to determine these
| concentrations/pathways of known-stolen phones with a query to
| whatever database backs Find My.
|
| The query may be easy for the most-egregious operators.
|
| It may be in Apple's interest to look for them, too. "Don't
| steal Apple phones. A trillion dollar company will pay a data
| scientist to bust you at scale."
| dboreham wrote:
| "Find my Thief"
| [deleted]
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Find My doesn't leak device location to Apple, so they do not
| have this data. (iirc it works something like this: the
| device includes a public key in its broadcasts and nearby
| devices encrypt their location for that key and send that
| blob to iCloud)
| meindnoch wrote:
| You're conflating Find My (Mac/iPhone) with AirTags.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I can go to iCloud.com in a browser and ping my phone's
| location. They may not be initiating these pings or storing
| the data, but it's well within their capacity.
| benmanns wrote:
| You could also voluntarily share the device location with
| Apple and friends as part of reporting it stolen. I don't
| really care if Apple knows where my stolen phone is after
| it's stolen.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| (To be clear: no AirTags in this view. Macs, iPhones,
| iPads, Watches, and AirPods.)
| vizzah wrote:
| That's how it works.
|
| Police is not interested in petty crime. (A thief in this story
| was likely connected to a vast "organized crime" network, but
| try to prove this to the police when you are filling the report
| and they see just another stolen iPhone).
| from wrote:
| The phone will be sold for pennies on the dollar to an
| immigrant owned repair store that doesn't ask any questions
| and then will go to a local sketchy wholesaler and then will
| go to one of about 15 or so companies in Dubai, Hong Kong or
| Shenzhen (for example https://www.hanggroup.com/price/
| https://www.lcdone.com/ https://www.actionlogistics.com/). A
| coordinated effort to shut down these companies could
| probably make phone thefts decline dramatically for at least
| a couple of months.
| jrnichols wrote:
| especially in California if it's under a certain dollar
| value/amount.
| throwaway58670 wrote:
| Barely Sociable did an amazing video on this:
| https://youtu.be/3Ws3YptLmLQ
|
| Don't want to spoil anything, but locked down phone doesn't
| always mean it's a brick :-)
| Tepix wrote:
| I've had a phone stolen in Disneyland Europe, i assume they steal
| many and are highly professional.
|
| It's too bad there isn't yet (?) to my knowledge a police unit
| that specializes on quickly responding to theft of trackable
| items.
|
| It seems it would be rather easy to take out the entire
| operation.
| Oxidation wrote:
| More surprised that ~~Pre-Mor~~ Disney hasn't cracked down on
| that itself.
| throwawayacc3 wrote:
| You report it stolen to your service provider. They blacklist the
| IMEI and it's unusable in most of the world except for countries
| that do not respect the global blacklist. Like... China.
| sn_master wrote:
| During the Seattle 2020 "events", I was walking by then started
| hearing loud noises all of a sudden. Turns out, thieves had
| broken into the nearby Apple store, taken many iPhones and then
| the "stolen" signal was somehow pushed into them, making them
| make a loud sound and show a "this is stolen" kind of popup on
| their screen. The thieves just dumped the stolen iPhones on the
| ground probably to avoid attention from the cops.
| jrnichols wrote:
| I replied to the guy because my stolen iPhone went to the exact
| same place in China.
|
| Clearly there is some factory there accepting tons of stolen
| phones.
| vinhboy wrote:
| I am really happy to see a story from Mastodon. A first for me on
| any social media. This is progress!
|
| Also, don't thieves usually turn off the phone immediately so you
| can't track anything.
| tartoran wrote:
| I got a used Iphone SE second generation 2020 for $140. It's
| perfectly usable, feels like new, it's not a theft magnet and if
| it gets stolen I didn't lose much, aside from the inconvenience
| of not being able to do anything till replaced, probably a ruined
| afternoon or whole day. The previous older Iphone is still a good
| backup for multifactor authentication and keep it in a safe place
| at home for such cases.
| windowsrookie wrote:
| I actually just picked up two 2020 iPhone SE's for traveling.
| New SE's were $99 this Black Friday and I'd argue it's the best
| value phone. It has a fantastic camera, and performance that
| still matches flagship android devices. $99 Android phones are
| all crap in my experience.
| ec109685 wrote:
| Was the iPhone deal carrier locked? E.g.:
| https://www.laptopmag.com/news/iphone-se-drops-to-
| dollar99-c...
| windowsrookie wrote:
| Carrier locked to straight talk or total by Verizon for 60
| days. You had to buy one month of prepaid service for $30
| and they unlock automatically after 60 days.
|
| So total price was $130 but I am using the 5gb of data as a
| hotspot for my laptop this weekend anyways.
| martinald wrote:
| Someone I know in London had a super old Pixel 2 stolen while
| he was texting by a guy on a bike. The thief took one look at
| it and threw it back as I assume he is only looking for iPhones
| or higher end phones.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > it's not a theft magnet
|
| Unfortunately, I don't think that's how it works. I had a
| Galaxy S1 stolen once, when it was already quite old. A friend
| of mine had his GS7 stolen, also several years old and in quite
| bad shape.
|
| I think thieves will just act on an opportunity and see later
| if the device is worth anything.
| tartoran wrote:
| You may be right though a latest / greatest Ipnone worth
| $1000 (sporting features I dont give a damn) makes me uneasy
| to use on public transportation. Here in NYC such things get
| snatched from peoples hands on the train along with gold
| jewlery and other expensive gear. I dont want to attract that
| upon myself, no thanks. $150 phone which works decently could
| be stolen too but the hole in the budget is an order of
| magnitude smaller so I can stay relaxed at least.
|
| Yeah, I used to have a rusty roadbike that looked so
| unattractive I thought it's like ontouchable and I found the
| solution to bike theft. Nevertheless, one day a thick chain
| was cut and the bike was gone. So, yes, anything gets stolen
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