[HN Gopher] Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera
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Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera
Author : thebetatester
Score : 407 points
Date : 2022-12-07 01:05 UTC (21 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.catphones.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.catphones.com)
| teruakohatu wrote:
| These niche phones never fail to run old versions of Android.
| This phone runs Android 11, which was released October 4, 2021.
| Android 13 was released 15 August 2022.
| tootie wrote:
| I did a project a while back with devices like these. Super
| rugged shell, giant battery and, in this case, a powerful IR
| barcode scanner. We built custom apps for warehouse workers and
| shut access to anything remotely fun. No mobile data or calling
| allowed, no internet except one hardwired wifi network that
| talks to shipping systems. Having an old OS is fine because
| they don't need to be compatible with much and security isn't a
| big deal because they're so locked down.
| throwaway5959 wrote:
| toast0 wrote:
| I mean, that was only four months ago? And someone in the
| thread said it launched in September, you're unlikely to get
| latest Android in the box a month later, unless the model is
| planned as part of the OS launch.
|
| If all the niche phones don't have updates, that's probably a
| failing of the OS rather than the niche phones.
|
| Somehow, Microsoft manages to get Windows updates out to
| everywhere and computers in stores end up having the latest OS
| on there. Google makes Chrome OS devices update. I think
| there's two or three projects that were supposed to make
| Android updates actually happen, but where's the pudding?
| gulperxcx wrote:
| You're getting Android 12 release date confused with 11. 11 was
| released in Sept 2020, your point still stands however.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I was expecting you to say it was something from 2010. By
| comparison, 2021 doesn't seem half bad.
| emusan wrote:
| I owned the first CAT phone with a FLiR thermal imaging sensor
| and this was by far my biggest gripe. The hardware felt like it
| was built to last a decade or longer, but the software was
| chock full of vulnerabilities from day 1, and I think they only
| provided a few months of proper software updates. I have since
| (reluctantly) moved to iPhone where I expect that (with my
| usage) the software should outlast the hardware.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Probably easier to just wrap an iphone in one of those
| massive cases.
| FrostKiwi wrote:
| Anyone know the resolution of the FLIR camera? Specs don't seem
| to list the thermal camera resolution, only up-res one. The last
| revision was kind of weak, low-res with a max of only 120degC or
| so, if memory serves right. The improvement to : -20degC to
| 400degC is a happy step forward.
| saratogacx wrote:
| From the tech specs section https://www.catphones.com/en-
| us/cat-s62-pro-smartphone/cat-s...
|
| Lepton 3.5 professional grade camera 1440 x 1080 HD output with
| VividIR MSX linear overlay from visual cam Measurable range:
| -20degC to 400degC
| zejn wrote:
| Lepton 2.5 is 80x60, Lepton 3.5 is 160x120.
|
| https://www.flir.com/products/lepton/
|
| Scroll down for full specifications.
|
| Key property is also thermal sensitivity, which for Lepton 3.5
| is <50mK. Better sensitivity and you will be able to see finer
| gradients or need less temperature gradient to observe.
| tshadley wrote:
| Says "FLIR Lepton 3.5 professional-grade sensor" which lists at
| 160x120 from
|
| https://www.flir.com/news-center/camera-cores--components/fl...
| zwieback wrote:
| I've played around with both generations of the Lepton sensor
| and the 3.5 is really nice: factory calibrated so you can
| directly measure temp without elaborate external calibration
| and a built-in shutter.
|
| Thermal sensors of this type are huge and expensive. At work
| I also have a Flir with 1024x768 sensor, super expensive with
| a massive germanium (or something) lens. One of the problems
| for handheld applications is that you always need two
| separate optical paths since the lensing is totally
| incompatible. So you end up having to register the two images
| to each other, which can fail when it's darkish or the image
| doesn't have a lot of edges.
| system2 wrote:
| They used a very crappy wordplay to hide the pixels for
| unknown reasons.
| [deleted]
| vardump wrote:
| No mention about thermal camera resolution, even in the "Full
| Tech Specs". Although it does mention it's using FLIR Lepton 3.5
| sensor. Seems to be 9 fps at 160x120. [0]
|
| [0]: https://www.digikey.com/en/product-
| highlight/f/flir/lepton-3...
| wlesieutre wrote:
| 9 fps is because if the framerate is any higher it would be
| subject to ITAR export controls, that's going to be a limit you
| find on any similar cameras
| mwint wrote:
| Does ITAR present an impediment even if it's manufactured and
| sold in the US?
| LWIRVoltage wrote:
| You can't take it out of country without an export license-
| Someone else will have to comment on the process of doing
| that so they can take their camera on vacation or something
|
| I've had to navigate that and make use of listed exemptions
| to that, for sending thermal cameras i bought from israel-
| BACK to israel for repair- because of ITAR.
|
| Other than that, you can do what you want in-country with a
| high quality thermal-and the US can import others who make
| stuff that high quality, without issues
| nmstoker wrote:
| Seems highly unlikely anyone would stop to check the
| camera when coming back into the US with a personal
| phone. They would need to be checking millions of phones
| for a tiny number of hits.
| dotancohen wrote:
| If you get caught you could lose your professional
| license. I would assume stiff fines and would not be
| surprised if some cases might be punishable by
| incarceration.
| SpelingBeeChamp wrote:
| I brought a 640 x 480 ThermApp Pro with me on vacation to
| Buenos Aires recently. This might come as a surprise to
| you, but no one asked me about my camera's frame rate :P
|
| Hey, wait... are you the person on the EEV Blog Forum who
| wrote about your saga of trying to figure out how to
| legally ship your camera to Israel for repair? That was
| also a ThermApp, no?
| Sporktacular wrote:
| It only is an impediment if it is made in the US. There are
| high frame rate sensors sold openly abroad.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Not made, but exported from the US. Nevertheless US
| manufacturer(s) are not willing to sell restricted
| versions of these miniature sensors.
| walterbell wrote:
| 25 fps is available on Amazon,
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33890299
| numpad0 wrote:
| This is rather disappointing especially there are now 25fps
| Hikmicro cameras at similar prices.
| Sporktacular wrote:
| Only in the US. Doesn't apply to these guys for example
| www.infiray.com
| nomel wrote:
| Buy several and place them behind a cold rotating disc, with
| a hole in it, so each is exposed for 1/<desired fps> seconds?
|
| Although I see I can save quite a bit of effort by buying a
| 25Hz HIKMICRO thermal camera on US Amazon.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| IR cameras tend to be very low-res (or very expensive). Looks
| like they have some kind of computational photography pipeline
| processing, to enhance the IR image.
|
| You can get FLIR modules for most smartphones (Android and
| iOS). Not sure I'd buy a phone, just for the camera.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| I wonder if it's possible to take multiple low-res cameras
| and combine their output in an array...mainly because I have
| a source for affordable but very low-res (32x24) thermal
| cameras.
| nomel wrote:
| You could make a sensor array by placing the raw sensors
| close together, all on the same image plan of a single
| lens. This results in gaps between that would have to be
| dealt with.
|
| Or, you could make a camera array, with multiple lenses,
| like: https://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/array
| Ao7bei3s wrote:
| For a real-world application: the ARGUS video capture
| system used on MQ-9 Reaper drones is 386 5-megapixel,
| 2010's-era smartphone grade camera sensors and four
| lenses (Source:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare)
| andrewia wrote:
| This phone has been out since Spring 2022. Any reason for the
| post?
|
| If we want to talk about the utility of a thermal camera, I found
| it neat. I used a $150 Seek camera to diagnose poor insulation in
| my bedroom, and one contractor even offered free advice over
| email since the images were clear enough. I've also used it to
| find hot ICs on a PCB. The resolution of these lower cost modules
| isn't great, which you can see by all the postprocessing they
| advertise. But it's enough to see which wall is leaky, or which
| IC needs a heatsink.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| > _Spring 2022_
|
| That was last week.
|
| (Seasons are a lousy way of describing times for anything other
| than local, geographically-anchored content. They're only
| meaningful in a comparatively narrow band, falling apart if you
| head much towards the poles or equator--the four seasons model
| is _useless_ in tropical areas especially--and inverting if you
| head to the other side of the equator.)
| firecall wrote:
| Indeed.
|
| Our friends in the USA often assume the people they are
| talking to are only in the USA!
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Nonsense, plenty of places in the US completely lack spring
| and fall as reality, including where I grew up.
|
| What you should have said is that many in the USA often
| assume the people they are talking to _experienced a life
| identical to theirs_
| system2 wrote:
| Doesn't everyone live in the USA?
| randomdata wrote:
| _> Seasons are a lousy way of describing times_
|
| Given the context, 'spring' is just another way of saying
| second quarter. It has nothing to do with seasons beyond
| incidental alignment between calendar quarters and observed
| seasons in certain geographic areas where the use originated.
| Indeed, even second quarter breaks down where the Gregorian
| calendar isn't used, but you have to make assumptions at some
| point in order to communicate. Context fills in the gaps.
| rippercushions wrote:
| No, it really isn't, and it's mildly obnoxious to people
| living in the southern hemisphere (or the tropics, for that
| matter) when people assume spring = Q2. Mildly because
| we're used to it, but it's not hard to avoid.
|
| And for better or worse, the Gregorian calendar _is_ the
| universal civil system now, even in the countries like
| Saudi Arabia that notionally use other calendars. Even
| Korean Juche years, Japanese imperial eras etc are aligned
| to Gregorian years.
| fijiaarone wrote:
| All the people who live in the southern hemisphere live
| in the tropics or subtropics.
|
| Spring has no more meaning in Melbourne than it does in
| Mexico City.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| I can't comment on the meaning of spring in Mexico City,
| but I assure you that it means plenty in Melbourne and
| its surrounds, colloquially and in actual weather. Even
| if we didn't get a lot of it this particularly wet year.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| rippercushions wrote:
| Having lived in Melbourne, those are both pretty bizarre
| assertions, although it's a running gag for Melbourne
| that you can easily experience all four seasons in a day.
| In Australia, only coastal NT/FNQ qualify as tropical,
| with a subtropical slice from Brisbane down to Sydney:
|
| https://plantmaps.com/koppen-climate-classification-map-
| aust...
| smcl wrote:
| A funny thing I've realised is that it's a running gag in
| many places, and each one thinks it's unique to them :)
| randomdata wrote:
| Usage dictates that spring = Q2 when used in a business
| context centred around a US-based business. It has
| nothing to do with the seasons. It is quite common for
| words to have multiple meanings, using context to
| establish the exact definition in play.
|
| The only thing that is actually obnoxious is silly
| pedantry.
| MBO35711 wrote:
| Not so. I would have guessed it was either Feb,Mar,Apr
| (astronomical) or Mar, Apr, May being the gardeners
| calendar. But Q2 is Q2. It's not just having to flip the
| season for the hemisphere.
| randomdata wrote:
| Quite so, even if a regional dialect. Certainly where
| Caterpillar operates out of it is common. If we were
| instead talking about an Australian company that produces
| barbies then we'd know we're talking about barbecues and
| not dolls, even where regional dialect only knows Barbie
| as a doll. Words don't exist in a vacuum. Context is
| significant.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| I have literally never heard this, and I'm more aware of
| the vagaries of USA and European business and general
| practices than most others in Australia.
|
| If someone on the internet says "Spring 2022", I
| immediately assume it's speaking of northern hemisphere
| temperate regions' spring (because such dating is
| uncommon in the southern hemisphere to begin with and
| _never_ used in public /worldwide internet situations
| because we're more aware of these things), and after
| thinking carefully for a bit to straighten out in my mind
| when that actually is, I assume March-May 2022 or
| possibly a week earlier (equinoxes and such), because
| that's what would be meant in Australia, if we ever
| expressed things like that (apart from the whole off-by-
| six months thing!). I would not expect June to be
| reckoned a part of it any more than I would expect March
| to be a part of Q2.
|
| (Incidentally, a year or two back I heard suggestions
| that "Q2" may customarily be anchored to financial rather
| than calendar years in some places. Not sure if this is
| true.)
|
| If by "spring" you meant to convey "the second quarter of
| the Gregorian calendar", you failed to communicate
| accurately.
| randomdata wrote:
| _> If by "spring" you meant to convey "the second quarter
| of the Gregorian calendar", you failed to communicate
| accurately._
|
| How could I be more clear?
|
| _" Given the context, 'spring' is just another way of
| saying second quarter. ... Indeed, even second quarter
| breaks down where the Gregorian calendar isn't used, but
| ..."_
|
| I'm really not sure what is missing. Definitely
| interested in your advice.
|
| Or maybe you're referring to the person who originally
| used Spring 2022? If that's the case then that wasn't
| communicated very well. "You" referring to an unrelated
| third-party is a new one for me.
|
| _> Incidentally, a year or two back I heard suggestions
| that "Q2" may customarily be anchored to financial rather
| than calendar years in some places. Not sure if this is
| true._
|
| Definitely true in the right context, but "spring" is
| used more for general audiences when trying to not sound
| business-y; particularly when the audience is children. I
| doubt you will find this usage in a financial context,
| but definitely with respect to product launches.
| Something like "Coming Spring 2022" is quite common.
|
| As this pertains to children, it is also not uncommon to
| see school periods referred to by these same names. e.g.
| "fall semester", while "summer" is the name of the
| prolonged vacation period. Because of that, these words
| are relatable (to those in the geographic region of
| origin), and is likely why we started seeing them turn up
| in business contexts, especially in advertising.
| lamontcg wrote:
| https://xkcd.com/1053/
|
| I'm one of today's lucky 10,000 to find out about IR cameras
| for smartphones.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| > This phone has been out since Spring 2022. Any reason for the
| post?
|
| also, they offered phones with flir cameras before, so nothing
| new on this front either.
| brailsafe wrote:
| I didn't know about it before, and now I do. Certainly more
| valuable than the much older hustle culture startup ceo stuff
| that's often posted.
| tildef wrote:
| It's actually even older--August 2020 according to GSM arena
| (https://www.gsmarena.com/cat_s62_pro-10358.php) Got mine not
| long after. Kind of surprised to see it make the HN front page
| in AD 2022.
| theCrowing wrote:
| Linus used it in his last video.
| pimlottc wrote:
| Linus Torvalds? He has videos?
| hindsightbias wrote:
| The other Linus
| komali2 wrote:
| van Pelt?
| cerved wrote:
| Yes. He's switched from LKML to TikTok
| nickthegreek wrote:
| Linus Tech Tips
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| I purchased a phone with built in FLIR for a friend in
| Australia. It was cheaper for me to buy it in the US, ship it,
| and pay a bunch for insurance than for her to buy it locally.
|
| You can see the phone at 4min in this video
| https://youtu.be/BDUOtlVc4UM
| emilburzo wrote:
| you mean 2020, right?
|
| > Announced 2020, June 28
|
| > Status Available. Released 2020, August 17
| dewfaced wrote:
| These phones are pretty louse tbh. I bought one 6 months ago and
| 1 month later I switched to a Pixel 6.
| CyanBird wrote:
| Saw it on LinusTechTips and had to pause the video for a moment,
| thats a very very useful feature, not much else to add. The phone
| is certainly being targeted towards professionals which at least
| from me takes the shine away to a degree, as the features I would
| love to go along with it such as AI assisted night vision or the
| 3.5mm audio jack won't be in it
|
| It is certainly on my radar wherever my current phone finally
| kicks the bucket so to speak
| defrost wrote:
| I suspect these:
|
| > Drop tested multiple times onto concrete & solid steel from
| up to 1.8m (6ft) to prove their rugged credentials.
|
| > Designed to exceed MIL-SPEC 810H protection against dust, as
| well as shock, water, vibration and extreme temperatures.
|
| > IP68 & IP69 rating system proves your phone can handle not
| just a brief dunk in water but also complete submersion.
|
| > Wash and sanitise with soaps, hand sanitisers, anti-bacterial
| sprays, alcohol wipes and even bleach.
|
| are features attractive to many who work outdoors in
| construction, engineering, surveying, hands on dirty roles.
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| In case others are interested, here's the video:
|
| https://youtu.be/QoC8R3KHk8E?t=403
| andirk wrote:
| The first time I heard that acronym, I thought it was the biggest
| stretch to make in to a word. Forward Looking?? Yeah Im going to
| forward looking walk to your house.
| species9606 wrote:
| The term originated in avionics, I believe with the F-16.
| Before that, IR imaging was top-down, something mounted under
| spy and reconnaissance planes.
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| If only there was an alternative to Google and Apple app stores,
| and to being a "green texter". I hate duopolies.
| ShakataGaNai wrote:
| You can get FLIR One cameras with Lightning and USB-C (for iPhone
| and Android respectively) for $300. https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-
| ONE-Thermal-Imaging-Camera/dp/B0...
|
| It isn't as good as the FLIR on the Cat phone, but if you're one
| of those people going "Man, having a FLIR around the house would
| be cool" - this is the solution for you. And it will outlive your
| phone...so long as you don't change "sides" in the OS Wars.
| mc32 wrote:
| There is also the solution from Klein Tools which may use (not
| sure) Flir sensors...
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| I have this phone and its quite slow.
| hrdwdmrbl wrote:
| Why can't phones easily add capabilities on both sides of the
| visible range? IR and UV. The visible range isn't special except
| to us, right?
| post_break wrote:
| I really need to get a thermal camera. So many uses. Finding
| insulation issues, studs in walls, the list is endless. Remember
| when people were hacking the Flir models to have the specs of the
| higher end ones?
|
| https://hackaday.com/2013/11/04/manufacturer-crippled-flir-e...
|
| You can find hacked ones on ebay too.
| [deleted]
| porbelm wrote:
| Wow, it has 128 GB of ROM! Upgradable to 256 GB! I wonder what's
| with the operating system that takes up so much space. And no
| mention of user storage.
| kman82 wrote:
| Good luck to them. I hope they can sell more than five phones a
| year
| 51Cards wrote:
| Oddly enough I just bought a used Blackview BV9800 Pro phone
| today purely for the FLIR camera in it. At $140 CAD it was much
| much cheaper than any of the off the shelf new FLIR options.
| lathiat wrote:
| That was a steal, a little better a value proposition than my
| $100 AUD / $92 CAD / $67 USD first generation Flir One
| (lightning port plug-in for iPhone).
|
| Where did you score it for that price, marketplace, eBay?
|
| Though even the $500 AUD odd going rate on eBay is pretty good
| given the cost of any of the devices with a screen built-in.
| 51Cards wrote:
| Canadian classified site, Kijiji. I missed another a couple
| months back so set a watch for any more ads to pop up and got
| lucky today.
| tildef wrote:
| I used the S62 as a daily driver for a couple of years and it was
| fairly decent. The convenience of having a thermal camera in your
| pocket at all times was remarkable, and it's one of those things
| you kind of miss when it's gone (my daily use for it was checking
| if the coffee was cool enough to drink--yes, I know my tasting
| organs provide much of the same functionality...) However, the
| resolution of the thermal camera wasn't particularly great, and
| the 9 fps refresh rate was also a bit limiting. Still, for
| checking for drafts, occasional electronics repairs and a general
| party trick it was great.
|
| Eventually I got a new phone from work, which I grudgingly
| accepted since I wanted Android 12 and a better visible-light
| camera, but I missed the thermal cam sufficiently that I got an
| Infiray P2 off Ali as a plug-in substitute. The resolution and
| refresh rate are a lot better than the Cat, but having to carry
| an extra dongle (and plugging it in, starting the app, restarting
| the app when it crashes...) sometimes makes me consider going
| back. If/when Cat makes a successor, I'd be very tempted to get
| it.
|
| Edit: The usb-c cam in question for those who are interested
| https://www.infiray.com/p2-pro-thermal-camera-for-smartphone...
| (available from the usual suspects)
| lathiat wrote:
| Using a thermal camera in the kitchen is under-rated. I
| sometimes do the same.
|
| Was inspired by this old linux.conf.au talk (that I attended in
| person) about a microwave with a thermal camera in the top. I
| would love the same above my kitchen stove:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3DADx5z-XY
|
| I'm a die-hard iPhone user so sadly a built-in won't work for
| me. I currently have a first generation Lightning FLIR One.
|
| It's pretty limited, only a single temperature measurement, no
| min/max scale you can see (it just auto calibrates), has a
| terrible rechargable battery and doesn't work with an iPhone
| case.. but I got it for the bargain basement price of $100 AUD
| ($67 USD) on Marketplace.
|
| My interest is more related to home effeciency (looking at gaps
| in insulation etc) but has been fun in the kitchen too.
|
| I'd love one of the newer ones but haven't wanted to justify
| the cost and happy with my bargain aquisiton :)
| Gigachad wrote:
| You can buy a stove that uses probes to monitor the temps and
| hold/stick to a preset program https://www.breville.com/us/en
| /products/commercial/cmc850.ht...
|
| I can't wait for these to become more mainstream so recipes
| start listing "Set stove to 150c" rather than "to medium"
| which is widely different depending on what stove you use. An
| amusing story one youtuber shared was the followed some
| advice that said to set your stove to high and leave it for
| 10 mins first, advice meant for a gas stove. When they tried
| it on an electric stove, the oil ignited on contact with the
| pan.
| orbital-decay wrote:
| Serious cooking books always focus on reproducibility and
| actual processes happening at certain temperatures in your
| food.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Any recommendations? Can't think of any such book owned
| by anyone I know.
|
| I often jest that cooking is just process chemistry, but
| done without proper tools and without caring about
| quality of the outcome.
| zingplex wrote:
| Modernist Cuisine is one I highly recommend.
| rodgerd wrote:
| Some induction tops have similar functionality - measuring
| the temperature of the pan and keeping at that temperature.
| It's not as precise as a probe, of course, but it's
| extremely convenient and useful.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Do you have experience with such a hob? I'd like to get
| one, but have found little info except marketing from
| manufacturers.
|
| I would assume those would be mostly useful for
| frying/searing meat, vegetables, and eggs with little
| oil. As soon as you have more liquid in the pot you won't
| be able to control the temperature by measuring the temp
| at the bottom.
|
| Do they work well with different pans?
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _As soon as you have more liquid in the pot you won 't
| be able to control the temperature by measuring the temp
| at the bottom._
|
| That sounds like an interesting engineering challenge!
| Assuming we have a stove with a fast-acting heat source
| (e.g. induction) and high-frequency thermometer (> 1 Hz),
| what can we learn about the contents of the pot/pan?
|
| I'm thinking: dump a set amount of energy into the pan
| (say, 0.5 seconds at "power boost" level), then watch the
| thermometer. Do it several times, with varying pulse
| lengths (say, 0.1 to 1 second - you don't want to burn
| anything on the pan, nor wait too long for it to cool
| down). This should give you a good idea of the pan's step
| and impulse response, and - I think - you could
| guesstimate what its contents are - particularly, if
| there are any liquids in it, and what they are. Then,
| continue with normal cooking, but keep a continuous
| record of power output vs. temperature measurement, and
| possibly occasionally pause and do a round of such pulse
| tests again.
|
| I see no obvious reason this wouldn't give a stove quite
| good control authority even in the presence of liquids,
| including those that are added or naturally seep out
| during cooking. I also don't expect any of the appliance
| companies to ever include this level of sophistication in
| their products.
| zejn wrote:
| Actually, I have a portable induction stove that I can
| set the temperature and it kind of works exactly the way
| you described it.
| amelius wrote:
| Yes, I'm wondering how well these temperature
| measurements work with metallic surfaces that are almost
| fully reflective.
| lathiat wrote:
| Particularly useful for "fast heat-up" combined with
| "don't fry the pan"
| m463 wrote:
| I have used a control freak (mentioned above).
|
| All the induction cooktops I've used (both builtin and
| plug-in) have been REALLY useless at temperature control.
| Even the heat settings leave a lot to be desired, they
| are very coarse.
|
| The control freak is orders of magnitude better at
| temperature control. I suspect it is not only the design
| and quality of the sensors, but the algorithms used to
| maintain the temperature (probably good PID).
|
| There are two sensors:
|
| a small glass covered sensor built into the center of the
| heating element that is spring-loaded and gets the heat
| off the bottom of the pan.
|
| a second plug-in sensor with a cable, that can be
| attached to the side of a pot using an insulator gadget
| and suspended in the middle of whatever you're cooking.
|
| Another pretty critical part is the "programs" you can
| write.
|
| For example, you could make a "hamburger" program to
| bring the pan up to temperature, then beep to add the
| burger, then flip it later, then remove it and do
| another.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > advice meant for a gas stove
|
| Can't imagine it would be any different result. 10 minutes
| preheat on any range is a lot. My cast iron pan started
| turning silvery blue well before the 10 minute mark with my
| gas range on high.
| [deleted]
| exclusiv wrote:
| > my daily use for it was checking if the coffee was cool
| enough to drink
|
| My wife has the same issue with hot coffee which drives me a
| little nuts. She uses a normal mug most of the time. Because
| she isn't certified in coffee temp detection like I am; she
| waits and waits, gets distracted, and eventually it becomes too
| cold. So she reheats it in the microwave, usually to the point
| where it's too hot, and that cycle continues after it gets too
| cold again. She's probably reheated coffee in the microwave up
| to 4-5 times a day at times. It's hilarious and ridiculous. As
| an engineer, admittedly, I enjoy the hilarity so much I'm not
| sure if I care about it being resolved!
|
| The issue is two-fold:
|
| 1) She lets the coffee hit the outermost parts of her lips and
| subjects herself to getting destroyed by the high temp lol. I
| don't understand why this is so difficult for people. Your
| outermost lips are more sensitive. Don't do that. You don't
| attack hot coffee like it's a fine bourbon. Also you can feel
| the temp and steam to know not to even attempt based on your
| preference and tolerance.
|
| 2) She isn't sitting at a desk consistently like most of us.
| She's everywhere in the house and then leaves, and her coffee
| intake isn't a priority like many of us.
|
| If I put her coffee in a stainless steel mug with a lid, then
| it takes too long to cool to her temp. She leaves the lid off
| to cool and then forgets about returning to it in time. And she
| doesn't end up drinking the coffee because it becomes too cool.
| So now she would have to transfer to a microwaveable mug to
| reheat and start that cycle so she doesn't even bother. If I'm
| prepping her a roadie coffee, I must pour it, leave the lid off
| for a period of time and then place it back on so she will
| attempt drinking it in time in the car to commit to it. If it's
| too hot, she will more than likely just abandon it and not
| check back in before we reach our destination.
|
| I got her an Ember mug so she can read the actual temp and
| control it. But it's not dishwasher safe of course. So she
| doesn't tend to use it. And from the fresh brewed carafe to the
| Ember still is too hot, unless the lid is off for some time
| like the stainless steel mug, lol.
|
| The ideal mug for her would thus be an Ember mug that is
| dishwasher safe and thus have some sort of twist mechanism to
| disconnect the battery and status/controls portion from the
| core mug function. And probably have a vent mechanism on the
| lid (maybe a double pop on the Ember lid to vent more?) to more
| quickly get the temp down from initial temp, as the heated mug
| portion can ensure the set temp is hit anyway.
|
| Someone please build that and save me! Or don't, and I'll enjoy
| the entertainment derived from the struggle. :)
| spuz wrote:
| I don't think it exists but it sounds like the best option
| for you would be a steel mug with a heated baseplate. The
| baseplate could detect the presence of a full mug with a
| force sensor and then start heating. When she makes her
| coffee she could place the mug on the baseplate and then keep
| it heated at her desired temperature. That way she could run
| around doing whatever and always have a warm coffee to sip on
| when she comes back to it.
| alex_suzuki wrote:
| Sounds like a good marriage!
| throwthroyaboat wrote:
| Same issue with my spouse. Solved it by buying a fancy manual
| espresso machine, and me learning to steam the milk to the
| correct temperature by feel. For tea we have an adjustable
| temperature electric kettle.
| jaclaz wrote:
| Maybe something _like_ a magic mug:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_mug
|
| could be made with ink/paint changes that show (very
| approximately) the temperature (I think the ones around have
| only on/off states).
| dotancohen wrote:
| This was far more entertaining to read than you probably
| intended. I find your ideas intr.... yeah that.
| tsm wrote:
| Hello, it's me, I have the same coffee problems as your wife.
| A few things that really helped, used in increasing order of
| desperation:
|
| 1. Buying a temperature-adjustable kettle and making coffee
| at 185deg or so instead of boiling. Bonus: I think the coffee
| tastes better anyway. I recently moved and couldn't take my
| fancy kettle with me, so now I pour cold water into the
| boiling kettle until I guesstimate I'm at 185. I guess this
| tip doesn't work if you're using a Mr. Coffee machine or
| whatever.
|
| 2. Giving the mug a really good blow as soon as the coffee is
| poured.
|
| 3. My wife bought me a few mugs that are much wider at the
| top than the bottom, meaning there's more exposed surface
| area and the coffee cools off quicker.
|
| 4. Adding an ice cube.
| thexa4 wrote:
| Instead of ice cubes you can also use frozen coffee cubes,
| it prevents dillution.
| pianosaurus wrote:
| Or rocks. I have a set of mineral cubes in my freezer. I
| don't need them for coffee, since I like it scolding, but
| they are handy for other drinks I don't want to dilute.
| zejn wrote:
| For the price of washing two mugs instead of one, you can
| also pour the coffee through air from one to another a couple
| of times. That brings the temperature down much quicker
| comparing to just leaving it sit a while.
|
| Helps to have containers that have an edge that is easy to
| pour from. Less spilling.
| krzyk wrote:
| I also don't like hot coffee (or anything too hot, soups
| etc.) which drives my wife mad.
|
| Before making coffee I put a cup into the fridge so the
| coffee will cool faster, I have not issues with cold coffee,
| I just don't want to wait that long.
|
| I also used to add ice to coffee, but that was diluting it.
| opan wrote:
| >(my daily use for it was checking if the coffee was cool
| enough to drink--yes, I know my tasting organs provide much of
| the same functionality...)
|
| For tea I pretty much found the right amount of cooling time
| once and now I just repeat it. I boil water, steep for 5
| minutes (with a timer), then when that 5 minutes is up I remove
| the bag and start an 18 minute timer. It's still pretty hot but
| slowly drinkable then, and within a couple minutes can be
| comfortably consumed quickly as well. I don't even try to drink
| before my timers are done anymore as I don't want to scald
| myself.
|
| I think I also did some experimentation with a laser
| thermometer, but I don't recall what numbers I landed at, and
| this way I don't need to wonder how long it will take either.
| The time also lines up pretty well with eating breakfast if
| done all together.
| whacked_new wrote:
| I've been using a BlackView 9900 Pro for over a year, and
| attest to the surprising usefulness of the built-in thermal
| camera, such as checking how well food is heated after
| microwaving, or even watching the heat distribution of rolling,
| boiled water.
|
| My phone's battery is degraded now and I'm dreading a switch to
| something else. I've eyed the S62 but don't think it's an
| upgrade.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| I'm confused, why not just replace the battery? They're
| available and if you're not good with fiddly disassembly jobs
| you can probably find someone to do it relatively cheaply.
| whacked_new wrote:
| completely fair, although the BV has a layer of anti-slip
| rubber on the back panel (which I also came to appreciate),
| so replacing the battery will probably require ripping that
| layer off (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zikXifsPDT0
| if curious)
|
| that said, I've abused the phone enough that maybe I should
| find a replacement for the rubber too.
| tildef wrote:
| Agreed. I'd hold off a bit if I were you, unless your current
| battery is completely busted. Might even be worth seeing if
| you can replace the battery. The S62 is over 2 years old, and
| considering Cat hasn't updated it past Android 11, they may
| have something new on the horizon--unless they plan to exit
| the phone market entirely, of course, which I guess is also a
| possibility.
| msrenee wrote:
| Every Cat phone I've looked at was on the high end of
| pricing at the time it came out and on the older end of
| operating systems. I've been in the market for a serious
| rugged phone basically the whole time I've had cell phones
| and Cat has never been justifiable to me.
|
| I lucked out and grabbed a Galaxy Xcover pro when they
| first came out. It's not really advertised for the consumer
| market, but it was also way cheaper than things I liked
| less that had been out for a year longer. I'm not sure if
| they'll come out with a new model anytime soon. I will say
| this thing has a removable battery, solid construction, and
| is plenty fast for me (though I'm not picky on speed). I'm
| still on the original battery and it will play music for 10
| hours through my Bluetooth headphones and still have 30%
| battery by the time I get home. I really have no
| complaints.
|
| EDIT: the Xcover does not have an IR camera. I got off on a
| tangent because I keep getting disappointed every time I
| look into Cat phones.
| asddubs wrote:
| the 9 FPS I believe are because US manufacturers aren't allowed
| to export thermal cameras above 9 FPS
| walterbell wrote:
| Imported 25 FPS thermal cameras are sold in US.
| asddubs wrote:
| yes, but import is the opposite of export
| walterbell wrote:
| What matters for US consumers is that both 9fps and 25fps
| are on Amazon for similar prices,
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33890299
| asddubs wrote:
| I was just explaining why the cat phone has only 9 fps.
| It's using a FLIR sensor.
| bpye wrote:
| Afaik higher FPS cameras can be sold to individuals but are
| ITAR controlled. I know at one point at least Seek had a
| higher rate version and anyone could buy it, but you had to
| provide documentation.
| userbinator wrote:
| ITAR
| kejaed wrote:
| You can also consider buying a FLIR ONE accessory for your
| Android or iOS device
|
| https://www.flir.ca/flir-one/
| delijati wrote:
| i would no recommend them. They are ok but battery is empty
| pretty fast and the software is pure ... (why does it need GPS
| and Bluetooth on?).
|
| The nice thing is that you can run them from desktop with tool
| https://source.dpin.de/nica/flir-gtk
| Gatsky wrote:
| How much do these go for?
| jonas-w wrote:
| The prices are on that page, from CAD$305 to CAD$689
| depending on the model you want/need.
| causi wrote:
| Unless you need the thermal functionality a dozen times a day
| you're better off buying a $200 IR add-on camera you'll be able
| to use for a decade or more.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I'm thinking the next scientific instrument turned phone
| accessory is going to be raman spectroscopes. It could easily
| solve a lot of problems of things like adulterated food and drugs
| being so common. There's also research done that shows that many
| regular consumer phones on the market now have CCDs which are
| even sensitive enough as-is to read the laser reflection and sort
| out what the chemical is. There's an implementation here as an
| add on, but I want to see them embedded in the phones themselves!
| [1]
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OOA-jwY4Dk
| aclatuts wrote:
| That video looks like sketchy vaporware. Who would need to
| analyze liquids carefully placed in a vial with their phone?
| Sometimes machines need to be big. Theranos setup themselves up
| for failure by trying to miniaturize and combine equipment that
| could never be miniaturized or interfered with each other.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I don't know if you realize what a problem adulterated food
| and drugs are - So basically grocers and pharmacists in
| places where regulatory structures are weak
|
| Keep in mind airports have this technology by now
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Note that that's not a Raman spectrometer, just a conventional
| grating or prism-based instrument. 3 nm resolution isn't too
| bad, though. Could be good for evaluating aquarium/houseplant
| lighting and things like that.
|
| A Raman spectrometer is still a fairly exotic piece of
| hardware, requiring a laser, a notch filter for the laser's
| wavelength, and a very good conventional spectrophotometer to
| look for low-level sidebands. There have been some homebrew
| Raman implementations -- e.g., Ben Krasnow's at
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRrOdKW06sk -- but nothing that
| would fit on the back of a smartphone.
| qwezxcrty wrote:
| Raman is inherently difficult as it's so weak compared to
| normal scattering, so careful optimization of SNR is
| required.
|
| Another DIY Raman setup (on a breadboard so expect few kg):
| https://www.thepulsar.be/article/openraman-starter-edition/
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| That's a great site. I like how he describes experiments,
| techniques, and components that didn't work out, along with
| the ones that did.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Is there any way you could picture it fitting on the back of
| a smartphone?
|
| Because some people definitely have [1]
|
| [1] https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/ay/d1
| ay0...
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Very cool, sign me up for one of those when they hit
| Kickstarter! It's pretty big and clunky, but still the
| smallest one I've seen.
|
| Edit: already on sale at https://www.amazon.com/CloudMinds-
| Raman-Spectrometer/dp/B081... . $24,980.00. Maybe I'll hold
| back a bit on this one...
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Give it three years max and it will be on the back of the
| new iphone
| programmer_dude wrote:
| A veritable tricoder in the making! Interesting times ahead.
| system2 wrote:
| Infuriating to see such a garbage video for a very promising
| technology. Either it is beyond fake, or they are just hiding
| the fact the tech they are working on doesn't work.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| It's just a simple optical spectrometer, nothing fancy or
| unique. There actually is a Raman spectrometer that works
| with a phone, but it costs US $25K (see other comments
| below.)
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Why are you so mad it's literally just a product video with
| bad ESL English for something that's an active field of
| serious study
|
| Look up cell phone raman spectroscope and there's many done
| over the past decade
|
| I think people's readyness to slap "fake" on everything these
| days is the only travesty here
| system2 wrote:
| In fact they act like there is a product. Not about English
| language, just hold the product and show the features for 1
| minute. That's it. The video is just stock videos with
| random effects. 3rd world or not, people come up with good
| product videos by reviewing what they have.
| capableweb wrote:
| Seems they tried to raise money but failed, so unlikely to
| launch maybe?
|
| https://www.pozible.com/project/zpecsen-mobile-
| spectrometer-...
|
| > AU$0 of $19,800 target
|
| > 2yrs ago
|
| > Closed on 9th Feb 2021 at 5:00PM.
| incompatible wrote:
| I don't think Caterpillar have any involvement in the design or
| manufacturing of these phones. They just license their brand to
| Bullitt Group.
| glonq wrote:
| We just finished a project where we spec'd catphones for a remote
| rugged data collection system.
|
| The Cat42 is based on a mediatek chipset and gave us "meh"
| performance. BT/BLE was underwhelming compared to other phones.
| I'd recommend something like an Cat53 or 62 with Qualcomm guts
| instead.
| thawkins wrote:
| The Ulefone 18t just lanched with the same flir sensor, but
| android 12, 12gb ram, 256gb flash. 9000mha battery and endoscope
| accessory attachment, same durability specs, marginaly cheaper.
| huhtenberg wrote:
| Remember when there was a period of time when camera
| manufacturers dabbled with adding FLIR to their consumer cameras?
| Sony did that and some others tried to follow, but it all was
| quickly wrapped up due to a massive amount of abuse. The cameras
| were mainly used to film women rather than to identify thermal
| leaks in insulation.
|
| Probably _the_ reason for the subpar FLIR resolution on this
| phone as well.
| gruturo wrote:
| > Probably the reason for the subpar FLIR resolution on this
| phone as well.
|
| Nope. You are confusing proper Far-Infrared thermal cameras
| (which can "see" radiated heat in the e.g. -10..60c range, and
| tell you that the top left corner of that window is poorly
| insulated), and regular CMOS cameras lacking an IR filter,
| which just see up to a few hundred nanometers beyond far-red
| (up to 1000 I'd guess?), and some clothes would be transparent
| at those wavelengths if illuminated by the right source (the
| Sun being one). You can easily buy filter-less IR cameras for
| scientific or astronomical purposes, or if you want to perv I
| guess, they're readily available. Plop ~20 bucks on a Pi NOIR
| camera for example, for the Raspberry Pi.
|
| (Actually every CMOS sensor sees in that band - it's reasonably
| easy to modify many cameras and remove the IR filter if that's
| what you want)
|
| An actual thermal camera is way more expensive and has a far
| lower resolution unless you want to spend more than on a Tesla.
| Not to mention, it's subject to ITAR export controls if you're
| in the US.
| SentientAtom wrote:
| My BlackView with FLIR is good for checking electrical circuits
| and relays.
| Manuel_D wrote:
| I wonder what the performance will be with such a small sensor
| and aperture. Usually FLIR scopes have massive apertures to
| collect as much light as possible. Medium wave infrared signals
| are extremely weak compared to visual light, and so sensors
| either have to be cryogenically cooled to allow for large gain
| with little noise or a large aperture to collect enough light. Or
| better yet, both.
| LWIRVoltage wrote:
| Someone else already pointed out this is LWIR, not Mid wave(I
| look forward to the day we get cheap MWIR cameras! We'll be
| able to see heat trails behind jets- and gasses like no
| tomorrow- you tend to see through 95% of the with LWIR)
|
| But large apertures? Are you thinking of the longer wavelength?
| For near infrared, this is a thing- and other night
| optics....and things like NVGs which use Near infrared
|
| But, this isn't ...a thing for MWIR/LWIR, and not necessarily
| for SWIR either
|
| The reason not ALL thermals have to be cryogenically cooled- is
| microbolometers - that's the key.
|
| - I own a bunch of uncooled LWIR cameras, that i use- and NVGs
| as well
| marmetio wrote:
| Probably works the same as every other device that uses the
| FLIR lepton 3.5.
| fisherjeff wrote:
| This is LWIR and it's probably pretty low f-number (guessing
| f/1) but super short FL so doesn't need all that large of an
| aperture.
| Animats wrote:
| Yes, they do have that, but $649? My first Cat phone was $249 and
| the current one is over $400.
| yalogin wrote:
| Wow the first of these phones were made in 2013! This is the
| first I am hearing of this phone. These are obviously selling
| enough to keep churning out newer versions. The FLIR camera is
| also something I have never thought about, quite a good option to
| have some times.
| 23202586 wrote:
| We can see it in action in the last LTT video on youtube. It is
| pretty wild
| kardianos wrote:
| Look up the uniherz Tank. Puts it to shame.
| dwighttk wrote:
| Why did FLIR catch on instead of just IR? Is it because it sounds
| cool to be military-like?
|
| Does anyone expect the IR to look any other direction than
| forward on a phone?
| capableweb wrote:
| The marketing distinction between FLIR and IR is that one
| provide thermal imaging and the other one doesn't. That's
| besides any scientific/"technically correct" definition.
| qwezxcrty wrote:
| The maker of that sensor called FLIR.
| LWIRVoltage wrote:
| I have looked at these a lot and wondered when they'll push the
| bounds of their thermals- I have owned some Therm-App
| cameras(384X288)(640X480), 30 hzsadly no longer sold as of
| recently - and it's been incredible having mid and HIGH grade
| thermal phone-based imaging- but a rugged phone is sturdier and
| more durable, which goes a long way.
|
| I want to see 320X240(or the european equiv, 384X288), 640X480,
| and higher resolution thermals in them! Otherwise we're still
| hanging out around FLIR One Territory, and the years are going by
| fast and they aren't pushing the boundary really! Those Leptons
| are cheap, but haven't changed much! (And yes, FLIR MSX is a
| thing- but , owning thermal cameras with multiples the
| resolution- i'd take that over MSX if i had to choose, every
| time)
|
| I see one competitor, the AGM ones like the AGM Glory Ones, (hard
| to see differences with their top models) , and a few other
| companies- have Night vision cameras with near-infrared
| illumination lights, for the user, as well- not just the thermal
| imaging- It's the dream to see as many different sensors and
| options in a phone as one can fit.
|
| Trust me, they come into use- I've saved multiple pets in the
| dark in my neighborhood, spotted equipment that was about to
| ignite, and done so much more with my own thermal cameras- having
| MORE capabilities- actually goes farther than you can imagine,
| when you have them...
| kichik wrote:
| What does it do with 128GB ROM?? /s
|
| Seriously though, does ROM no longer stand for read-only memory?
| userbinator wrote:
| It didn't ever since EPROMs existed.
|
| More seriously, the use of "ROM" to mean "nonvolatile storage
| in general" probably took off when the Android community began
| calling their firmware "ROMs".
| SquareWheel wrote:
| Caterpillar phones have had thermal sensing for years, haven't
| they? What's different in this model?
| [deleted]
| WatchDog wrote:
| When will we see high resolution (say 1080p) FLIR cameras at a
| prosumer level price point ~$1,000?
| zwieback wrote:
| Probably not for a long time. The individual microbolometer
| pixels are huge and use an expensive process so just the size
| of the sensor and the effort of getting reasonable yield is
| enormous.
| shp0ngle wrote:
| I want to warn people that Cat phones are not "good phones"
|
| They are cheapo Chinese Android phones, with a gimmick. The
| gimmick can work for some people, sure. Didn't work for me.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Depends what you want out of them I guess. I buy these because
| I want a phone that doesn't break easily. And CAT phones don't.
| It's slow, the camera is crap, the speaker is worse; but what
| sucks more is replacing the screen every couple of months
| because it breaks from a stiff breeze.
|
| I will drop my phone. It'll fall out of my pocket. I will sit
| on it. Sometimes it will land on a hard surface. It'll get wet.
| It'll get muddy. It'll get unceremoniously tossed in my gym
| bag. All these things happen. With most phones, this means I
| have to replace the screen if not the phone. With a CAT,
| there's no noticeable effect at all.
|
| I also really like how heavy and sturdy they are. Makes them
| easier to find. Battery life is also amazing. Mine is down to
| needing charging every two days now after a couple of years. My
| girlfriend's similar-aged flagship Samsung needs a filler-upper
| in the afternoon to make a full day.
|
| Anyway CAT matches what I want in a phone. This isn't for
| everyone, but let's not pretend nobody wants a phone that is
| sturdy and basic. Because I really do.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| I drop my phone a lot, but only the 9H glass screen protector
| has ever cracked, not the smartphone glass itself. I highly
| recommend just buying a 3 pack of screen protectors for $9
| once a year.
| King-Aaron wrote:
| Two of my mates run these phones, and while the FLIR camera is
| cool (and extremely handy for fault finding in HV switchboards
| and so forth), the rest of the phone is quite lacklustre.
| motohagiography wrote:
| The lack of a replacable battery is infuriating because it's
| planned obselescence of a FLIR device. I got one of the first CAT
| s60 phones when they came out and tolerated all the android
| spyware on it because I really liked having a properly ruggedized
| phone. Got about 4 years out of it.
|
| The flir camera I would say I used most often at night for
| finding my dogs poop to pick up on neighbours lawns in the dark,
| but I used it on boats to find moisture, motorcycle engine seals
| to find gasket problems, found contractor fraud where they didn't
| bother putting insulation behind drywall, and places around
| windows for caulking to reduce heat loss, heat on horses legs
| that indicated inflammation, lack of current on wires in my
| basement. Mostly novelty, but handy.
|
| The battery became too flaky to use as a regular phone, so I keep
| it in my toolbox and use it as a stud finder behind drywall and
| used to find where animals were getting into the attic of the
| house. Next test is for rim leaks on car tires. It has been a
| small time saver, and a fun conversation piece. But yeah,
| military thermal imaging to find dog poop at night was most
| common use case.
| graderjs wrote:
| FLIR camera should also be able to pick up some UFO/UAP in the
| skies as well. Yay! Now nearly everyone can see some.
| sllabres wrote:
| Nice idea, but I think for THIS application the FOV is to
| large and the resolution (160*120?) is to low. Of course the
| extraterrestrial knew that and therefore allowed the
| integration of the lapton chip into the phone <8-)
|
| I use a dedicated thermal camera with bit higher resolution
| but higher FPS. As others have written they are quite useful
| as you see thing (even not ET) you could have measured with
| an IR thermometer if you knew they were there.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _Of course the extraterrestrial knew that and therefore
| allowed the integration of the lapton chip into the phone
| <8-)_
|
| That's silly. The real reason is that the ITAR prohibits
| you from being able to get a higher-resolution thermal
| camera, which is one of several laws implementing a
| complex, global ban on technologies that would let regular
| people spot the aliens. You can thank a secret UN
| subcommittee for that; they've botched negotiations with
| aliens so badly that our governments are now forced to do
| the "hiding from people" work for them.
| andai wrote:
| Do satellites show up on infrared cameras? Or are you talking
| about some sort of aircraft?
| sllabres wrote:
| Cant say for devices with higher resolution and stronger
| magnification (e.g. for hunting) but i don't think so too.
| Definitely not for the resolution and magnification we are
| talking here.
| saargrin wrote:
| not really.. low resolution and focused in short range
|
| i dont even get a blip when looking at airplanes with my
| thermal camera
| nicolas_t wrote:
| I'm actually considering buying a IR camera for testing
| insulation (I have a contractor working in my apartment and due
| to various instance of clear fraud from him I have no
| confidence or trust in him anymore). Would a HTI HT-102 be
| enough or is it better to get a better sensor?
| m463 wrote:
| I remember a few years back you could buy the cheapest FLIR
| camera and upgrade it to the expensive model with a firmware
| hack.
| budzes wrote:
| 32x32 sensor is useless. You need at least 160x120px.
|
| Cell phone attachment cameras have compatibility problems.
| For example, find reviews for Flir One Pro. If the cell
| cannot find the camera, then it's pretty useless.
| matthewaveryusa wrote:
| I have a flir as well and I've used it a lot while insulating
| my house, but the coolest thing I've done was find the exact
| location of a wasp nest between my walls and annihilating it by
| injecting a pesticide directly in the middle of the nest with a
| tiny drill hole. It seems gimmicky at first but it's been a
| real money-saver.
| jstrong wrote:
| I love stories about smiting wasps
| hnbad wrote:
| Fun fact: in most of Germany this would have been a crime
| with a penalty of up to tens of thousands in EUR depending
| on the exact species.
| m463 wrote:
| in comparison, when I bought a live-catch mousetrap
| recently, the guy at the store said it was illegal to
| release the mouse in the county. (implying you should buy
| the catch-and-kill trap variety)
| throwaway85858 wrote:
| This is not true.
|
| "in the last 5 years in NordRhein-Westfalen only once was
| someone fined 45 euros for destroying a wasps nest"
| https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2018/07/24/nein-wer-
| eine-e...
|
| The fines for thousands of euros are the maximum possible
| fines, which massively differs to how fines are handed
| out in practice.
| mustyoshi wrote:
| So they have a law on the books that isn't really
| enforced?
|
| That's almost worse imo.
| donatj wrote:
| Most laws are poorly enforced and only get invoked when
| you have otherwise pissed the right person off and
| they're looking for something to get you on.
| wlll wrote:
| It was though, a fine was levied. There's flexibility in
| the punishments that are dished out in a lot of justice
| systems and I suspect it's to take into account that the
| law is not really nuanced. It's hard to write down /all/
| possible motives, reasons or contexts in which a law or
| rule has been broken, and allowing the punishment to be
| scaled based on judgement seems like a reasonable thing
| to allow. I guess that's what judges are for.
|
| Of course this raises questions around who is making
| these judgements, and there's sometimes unfairness in how
| they are applied (eg. police in the US, broken tail
| lights and the colour of skin of the person stopped), but
| it doesn't mean that the underlying goal isn't sound,
| just the implementation.
|
| Personally I've had experience of this. My car tax (UK)
| lapsed and I didn't renew it. An oversight during a busy
| time of my life (moving house), and one that I noticed
| and fixed independently once I noticed, it must have been
| after a month or two.
|
| However, during the period when my car wasn't taxed the
| police noticed and reported it (to the authorities, not
| to me) who issued a fine (~PS90) that was sent to me by
| post. Unfortunately though I'd told the authorities that
| I'd moved house, twice, they sent the fine and all
| followup correspondence to my old address and I ended up
| with a choice, pay debt collectors (they managed to find
| my new house /just fine/) for the now increased fine +
| expenses (in the region of ~PS800) or go to court. Worst
| case either way was I'd have to pay the increased amount.
|
| I went to court and the three justices deliberated my
| case (I could hear them) and though they decided that I
| could afford the increased amount, it wouldn't be in
| anyone's interest to levy it as the circumstances in
| which this happened mitigated my lack of attention to the
| increasing fines. I wasn't a deliberate law breaker and
| ultimately a large fine wasn't going to change my on
| consideration generally good behaviour, and they made me
| pay the original ~PS90 rather than the substantially
| increased amount.
|
| As the saying goes, the law is an ass.
| JPLeRouzic wrote:
| In France there are a lot of new laws every year (~100)
| but at least on third of them will not be enforced,
| mostly because there is no budget to implement them, or
| it is political gesticulation to please some electors
| [0].
|
| For example over the year 2009/2010, 59 laws, which
| provided for 670 implementing decrees, were promulgated.
|
| According to a Senate report, as of September 30, 2010,
| only 3 laws had received all of their implementing
| decrees. And only 20% of these decrees had seen the light
| of day. However, a law without an implementing decree is
| useless: it is not applicable.
|
| [0] https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/parlement/faute-de-
| decret-d-...
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| Wasps have such a bad reputation. We have had nests of
| yellow jackets (vespula germanica), paper wasps (polistes
| dominula), and hornets (vespa crabro) directly on our
| terrace, and I have been stung once in ten years and that
| was my fault.
|
| There once was a nest of vespula germanica above the
| window of my study, a rather big nest that grew to a size
| of about 3000 or 4000 animals. The only thing I did about
| it was to close a hole in the wall, because a few of them
| kept coming inside. I sometimes went outside to watch the
| traffic at the entrance of the nest.
|
| More fun facts: wasps eat mosquitos. Lots of them! And
| they pollinate plants. Adult wasps are vegetarians, when
| they hunt or steal a piece of your steak (I have seen
| that happen!), then they collect food for their larvae.
|
| If you really want to get rid of wasps, use an essential
| oil (peppermint, lemon grass). Wasps communicate using
| pheromones and do not tolerate strong odor. Do not spray
| the nest, spray the area around the nest. You do not have
| to kill them.
| yafbum wrote:
| When eating outdoor in the summer requires you to swat
| away the same wasps from your plate over and over again,
| it's definitely annoying. I was stung as a kid for no
| reason, it was a pain for me and my parents to deal with.
| My wife and kid were stung also by wasps they could not
| see.
|
| We get rid of termites and insects by fumigating entire
| buildings. I don't see anything wrong with doing that to
| wasps as well. After all, in all likelihood, wasps will
| vastly outlive the human species...
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Just reading this makes me sweat. Aren't hornets - and
| wasps, to a lesser degree - extremely territorial? How do
| you deal with one when it find its way inside you house?
| Not to mention, aren't hornets and wasps natural enemies?
| I imagine you didn't have the two set their nests near
| your terrace _simultaneously_?
|
| I can intellectually process all the facts you wrote, but
| in my dealing with wasps and hornets, I find it hard to
| see them as anything than fast-moving balls of pain,
| always ready to strike at you out of nowhere, when you
| least expect them. Also, as a relatively fresh parent, as
| a threat to my children. I tend to prefer dealing with
| them by installing mosquito nets in all windows, but if a
| hornet gets in and doesn't politely leave, it's makeshift
| flamethrower time.
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| Yes, wasps are territorial, but this just means that they
| will defend their nests at all cost. As long as you do
| not rock their nest (or otherwise cause strong vibration)
| or stand directly in their flight path, you are safe.
|
| Different nests can be as close as a few meters and their
| inhabitants will mostly ignore each other. The hornets
| were about 7 or 8 meters away from the yellow jackets,
| and I have never seen them fight. If you put some fruit
| or honey somewhere, they will (mostly) peacefully share
| it.
|
| European hornets are not aggressive at all, they are just
| big and loud. When one gets into the house, I usually
| wait for it to settle down somewhere and then carefully
| catch it with a glass and a piece of cardboard. We also
| have mosquito nets on all windows and doors.
|
| Another fun fact: wasps will not spend much time around
| their nests. They usually leave the nest at high speed
| (do not stand there!) and then roam an area of multiple
| square kilometers. When they come back they immediately
| go back into the nest. Sometimes a single animal may
| inspect the closer area, but this is rare.
|
| Once you understand wasps, there is not much to fear. I
| understand your concerns regarding you child/children,
| and it is probably a good idea to keep wasps at a
| distance for some time. When children grow up, there is
| little danger, though. The sting of a single wasp or
| hornet will not harm a human being unless you are
| allergic. (European!) hornets use almost the same venom
| as yellow jackets, only more of it. (In Asia or South
| America, be more careful!)
|
| Finally, wasps do not _want_ to sting you. Most of the
| time they are just investigating. When a flying wasp
| bothers you, slowly and carefully push it away with your
| hand. Most of the time it will just go away. On the net
| there are videos of some guy who _tries_ to get stung by
| various wasps. It is educating to see how much he had to
| bother them before they did.
| eimrine wrote:
| > European hornets are not aggressive at all, they are
| just big and loud.
|
| Seems like you are talking about bombus, not vespa. The
| worst thing about hornets is that if one insect has bit
| you somewhere near their nest than you better run as fast
| as possible from that place because of pheromone mark.
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| I am talking about vespa crabro, the European hornet. All
| social wasps use pheromones to mark intruders. If you are
| being stung while close to a nest, yes, do walk away.
| That being said, I have been stung once (own mistake)
| while standing 2 meters away from a nest and nothing
| happened.
| rascul wrote:
| > Another fun fact: wasps will not spend much time around
| their nests. They usually leave the nest at high speed
| (do not stand there!) and then roam an area of multiple
| square kilometers. When they come back they immediately
| go back into the nest. Sometimes a single animal may
| inspect the closer area, but this is rare.
|
| Not the wasps here. There's always a few wasps flying
| around the nests when I find them.
|
| It also doesn't take much to aggravate them.
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| If you mean _directly_ in front of the entrance, yes,
| there will always be a bunch of wasps waiting for their
| turn to get in. And, yes, do not get too close to that
| spot unless you know what you are doing. In particular:
| know their flight paths and do not stand there.
| lostapathy wrote:
| So when they built a nest near my back door, I'm just
| supposed to surrender my back patio so them so I can stay
| out of their flight paths?
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| As I wrote before, if you want to get rid of them, there
| are ways to do so (and keep them away) without killing
| them.
|
| But to answer your question more directly: We have
| happily surrendered part of our terrace to wasps. Their
| right to live tops our desire for convenience. A nest
| lives for one year. If we do not want them to use the
| same spot next year, there are ways to make sure they do
| not.
| lostapathy wrote:
| I'm not surrendering "part of my terrace" to wasps - I'm
| talking about the rest of my family being unwilling to
| open the back door because there are always wasps flying
| near it. I'm not willing to surrender my back door to
| wasps for a year in hopes they find new flight patterns
| next year.
| winReInstall wrote:
| Nonsense, hornets eat yellow jackets as snacks.
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| Larger wasps prey on smaller wasps, but they can still
| coexist in close proximity. They do not spend the entire
| day with hunting.
| winReInstall wrote:
| It depends on the dietary needs of the hive, but beneath
| the pear tree of my fathers farm, they most definitly
| did. Swoop, crack open, slurp. Was a evening background
| noise..
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > stand directly in their flight path, you are safe
|
| Having been chased by wasps while on a riding lawnmower,
| I'm calling bullshit! And those suckers are _fast_!
| wlll wrote:
| > directly in their flight path
|
| My experience of sitting outside in the summer (modulo NW
| England) is that their flight path covers getting close
| to 100% of the airspace in my garden.
|
| Though I'm sure there are other varieties I've only ever
| seen one type of wasp in the UK, and that's this one
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowjacket, and my
| experience of them is that they are irritating and
| aggressive bastards. I don't doubt that wasps are an
| integral part of the ecosystem, but I'd prefer it if they
| integrated into a geographically distinct part of the
| ecosystem from me and my lunch.
| jstrong wrote:
| sounds more like a repugnant fact to me
| [deleted]
| lm28469 wrote:
| Average human in the middle of a massive, probably
| partially man made, extinction: "lmao I don't like them
| let's kill them"
| throw827474737 wrote:
| Very ignorant! One can avoid wasps initially, or also
| later move them more peacefully. They are very important
| pollinators (we lack more&more) and even have more cool
| duties. Not sure about your wasps over there, the
| annoyance factor of the wasps in Germany is usually
| heavily overdramatized and human arrogance at its best.
| jstrong wrote:
| "yeah, what did wasps ever do to you?" attack the shit
| out of me for no good reason!
| aidenn0 wrote:
| In the US, it's yellowjackets (vespinae, minus the
| hornets) that are rather annoying. They are attracted to
| sugar and meat, and sting rather aggressively, which
| makes outdoor barbecues unpleasant (to put it mildly);
| paper-wasps (Polistinae) are indeed rather easy to live
| alongside, but they look quite similar so inherit the
| bad-rap that yellowjackets have.
| distances wrote:
| The Central European wasp is a yellowjacket, Vespula
| germanica. It is very attracted to sweets and foods
| especially in the autumn. However, it does not usually
| sting unless there's a reason, such as you're trying to
| sit on it.
|
| I myself have had zero stings of any bee or wasp in my
| life so I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate.
| Some people are absolutely terrified about them though so
| "just let them be" rarely seems to be good advice.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespula_germanica
|
| Edit: actually I don't know which one is more common,
| Vespula germanica or Vespula vulgaris. I wouldn't be able
| to differentiate between them.
| ambicapter wrote:
| > I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate
|
| In my experience your hand is a minor annoyance that
| they'll fly around and continue eating. Only way to have
| peace is to lay traps around your eating area.
| dmix wrote:
| > so I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate
|
| I've found wasps extremely persistent and confident in
| ways most insects never are.
|
| It's one thing to gentle swat them but when they come
| back for 5-10min straight it's understandable why people
| don't like them.
|
| I also got bit on the mouth as a child when I drank a can
| of coke that had a wasp inside so I'm not exactly
| unbiased.
| deelowe wrote:
| Where I live paper wasps are aggressive and multiply
| quite rapidly. We went from one next to dozens in just a
| couple of years. I probably get stung at least once a
| year.
| amalcon wrote:
| Avoid your own house or yard? Annoyance? Tell that to my
| wife, my brother in law, my uncle, my cousin, or my good
| friend. They all could _literally die_ if stung, and have
| all been to the hospital at least once after a sting.
| petre wrote:
| I suppose it's legal to pack it and ship it to the
| Bundestag or whichever authority came up with that law
| then.
| romanovcode wrote:
| Why are wasps protected in Germany? I understand bees,
| but what good are wasps for?
| linmob wrote:
| See https://www.thoughtco.com/what-good-are-wasps-1968081
| biztos wrote:
| Without the wasps crawling into the sugar dispensers at
| every single outdoor cafe in Germany all summer long,
| people would eat the sugar and create a diabetes
| epidemic.
|
| At least that was my impression in Berlin; wasps got all
| the sugar, Berliners stayed pretty thin for the most
| part.
| type0 wrote:
| Ah, this explains the bitterness of Berliners
| constGard wrote:
| I'll add my own annecdote to this article. We had a wasp
| nest under the eaves of the house and I managed to
| successfully move them into a little hutch I built near
| the garden. I can't say I directly observed them saving
| the tomatoes, but we did have fewer tomato hornworms than
| in previous years.
|
| They were also really docile and tolerated a good deal of
| me fumbling around with the nest. I waited until it was
| cold out and covered up pretty thouroghly, but they were
| mostly content to let me flop them around with a set of
| long BBQ tongs.
| hoseja wrote:
| I've come around on wasps. They just do their thing. You
| got stung? Don't tread on them.
| yetihehe wrote:
| Sometimes wasps have other ideas about "treading on them"
| like "You are near and made a sudden move, you are
| threat". It gets worse when you are allergic to wasps.
| I've worked near a place where transport company cleaned
| their syrup and milk carrying trailers, so we sometimes
| had a lot of wasps and one of coworkers had to constantly
| have adrenaline with him. If he got stung and couldn't do
| it himself, we were trained on how to jab him and call
| ambulance.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| > one of coworkers had to constantly have adrenaline with
| him. If he got stung and couldn't do it himself, we were
| trained on how to jab him and call ambulance.
|
| FWIW, this bit is true of everyone I've known who was
| aware of an anaphylactic allergy, independent of their
| likelihood of exposure to the allergen. "Carry an EpiPen,
| know how to use it, make sure some of the people around
| you are aware of your allergy and know how to handle a
| reaction" is a _very_ light-weight and reliable solution
| to "something relatively common could easily kill me".
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| Germany has some very silly laws.
|
| The wasp protection one gets broken all the time for
| obvious reasons.
| KMnO4 wrote:
| Despite their aggression and desire for sugar, wasps are
| useful and important pollinators the same way that bees
| are.
| type0 wrote:
| They also annihilate the bees which are much better
| pollinators
| ljf wrote:
| I dislike wasps - BUT the good thing if you find a nest, is
| the knowledge that they will never return to a nest the
| following year - so the next actually becomes something
| that will help prevent future wasp infestations.
|
| When we bought our last house I changed a light fitting and
| live wasps poured out - I was freaked out, and put the
| fitting straight back.
|
| A few days later I went into the attic to put some boxes up
| there and found a HUGE nest near the light fitting. I put
| my hand on it and could feel and warmth and buzz of the
| wasps. It was already mid summer so I just left it (there
| were not loose wasps in the attic - their entrance/exit was
| into the eves of the house).
|
| By autumn they were gone, and we never again had a wasp
| issue in our house in the 10 years we lived there. I
| changed the light fitting the following spring.
| m463 wrote:
| I've found that a wasp nest is still a hint that wasps
| will make nests nearby.
|
| I had a shed (and a car) that had empty nests and then
| got nests nearby later.
| fijiaarone wrote:
| It's ok to have a camera that is not a telephone
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| It's ok, but it does _drastically_ reduce its utility.
| Conversely, anything that can be put into smartphone becomes
| much more useful. It often makes a difference between just
| having a tool for some odd job vs. gaining a _capability_.
|
| The reason is simple: you always have your phone on you, or
| near you. It's the most easily accessible piece of
| electronics, and - if you're storage limited - the last one
| you're likely to leave behind. There is a generic social
| acceptance of everyone having a phone on them (even if
| stashed in a pocket).
|
| A FLIR camera as a separate device? I'm unlikely to carry it
| with me unless I have a specific reason, and people will look
| at me weird if I walk around with one. A smartphone-
| attachable FLIR camera? It's still a hassle to carry, there's
| a good chance I'll leave one behind (comparable to a
| bluetooth headset). A FLIR camera built _into_ smartphone? On
| me all the time, everywhere, and always ready to use in
| random, unpredictable situations.
|
| And yes, it's the same reason why regular smartphone cameras
| all but killed the compact camera as a product. Having a tool
| always on you expands possible use cases so much it offsets
| for suboptimal performance/form factor.
| andai wrote:
| I recently found myself avoiding my phone for various
| reasons. At home I'd rather get work done (wfh) and I prefer
| to leave it at home when I go for walks. But my phone is also
| my camera, so now whenever I see something beautiful, I am
| unable to photograph it.
|
| I read the other day that compact camera sales had dropped by
| 98%. I guess I'm one of the 2% that actually has a need for
| one now.
| milsorgen wrote:
| Grab something used with enough megapixels. I used an old
| Canon A590IS for years, even after I had a slew of Nikon
| dSLRs. I've found random compacts over 10MP for less than
| 20 dollars while thrifting. Completely competent images in
| day light tbqh. Low light and video capabilities are what
| really lags when compared to more recent camera tech but
| I've always limitation breeds creativity.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Just use airplane mode. I use it all the time, for this
| purpose exactly. Sometimes I am just not available - people
| have to accept that.
| legitster wrote:
| All things considered, 4 years is pretty good!
|
| Someone explained to me it's more of a supply chain thing than
| planned obsolescence. Phone technology and batteries
| specifically have pretty short production lives - keeping a
| battery in production and in stock for long periods of time can
| be crippling to your product line when the competitors come out
| with 10% denser batteries every year.
| Sakos wrote:
| > All things considered, 4 years is pretty good!
|
| 4 years would be fine if you voluntarily upgrade because a
| newer model improves over what you have in an appreciable
| way. 4 years isn't fine if the device meets your needs and
| the only reason you have to replace it is because of the
| battery wearing out.
| Fatnino wrote:
| So sell compatible size higher density batteries.
|
| Actual disposable batteries (remember those?) have improved
| dramatically over the decades but you can still put a brand
| new AA battery loaded with the latest 2022 tech into a remote
| control from the 50s and expect it to work.
| SideQuark wrote:
| >Actual disposable batteries
|
| they have the same form factor, and they have not changed
| much over decades in capability and certainly not size.
|
| Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit
| in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes
| mean there is no standard size.
|
| When phone batteries get higher density, then it's likely a
| readeoff between adding more other features and keeping the
| same battery size - and as other features change, so do
| battery needs. The rapid evolution of phone tech, in every
| aspect, makes it cheaper (and wiser) to re-eval each piece
| quickly, or you get beat in the market place.
|
| Maybe in decades this will settle down, like it took for
| the disposable batteries to standardize over decades...
| lm28469 wrote:
| It's a choice we make, not a God given rule that we have
| to abid to or perish in fire
| KronisLV wrote:
| > Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to
| fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone
| sizes mean there is no standard size.
|
| It would be nice if that wasn't the case.
|
| I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the
| same battery type across multiple of their tools, so that
| they are interchangeable. I can imagine something like
| that happening industry-wide with a bit more lawmaking,
| like happened with USB types.
|
| Actually, it would be even better if we had a few common
| phone battery standards and every manufacturer had to use
| those (ideally with removable batteries). This might mean
| that phones would have to be built with the batteries in
| mind, not vice versa, which doesn't seem like a bad thing
| to me.
|
| Then again, personally I wouldn't even mind if there were
| like 10-20 common phone form factors in the first place.
| rlt wrote:
| > with a bit more lawmaking
|
| No thanks. Things like this almost always have unintended
| consequences.
| asddubs wrote:
| you could say that about literally any law. should we
| just not have laws then, lest there be unintended
| consequences?
| lm28469 wrote:
| Because the opposite doesn't have unintended consequences
| ? Do you know what we do with e waste ? ship them to
| Africa/China for """recycling"""
| unwind wrote:
| Have you seen AMPShare Alliance [1]? It's a common
| 18-volt battery tool platform with many partners.
|
| Mostly industrial/professional tools so far but I hope it
| will continue to grow. Yes, I have Bosch stuff. :)
|
| [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ng/en/
| radicalbyte wrote:
| > I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the
| same battery type across multiple of their tools
|
| That's because electric power tools are sold as a
| platform: you choose a brand and buy in to their
| platform. For example I mainly use a driver + drill so
| bought in to Milwaukee. Ended up buying a lot of other
| kit from them too.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| A silly question then: why there are no AA/AAA
| rechargeable batteries that are Li-Ion/Li-Poly/whatever
| chemistry is used in smartphone batteries? Seems like a
| no-brainer to me: use the apparently better, more
| advanced, more energy-dense chemistry, but in a standard
| AA/AAA format. Pack whatever control electronics you need
| for safety too. Not only my remote controls would have
| half a decade of battery life, an iPhone could be powered
| off 2 such AAs, instead of 8-10 regular ones like other
| commenters here calculated.
|
| Why isn't it done? Where's the catch?
| Zanfa wrote:
| Regular single-use alkaline AA batteries are more energy
| dense than comparable rechargeable lithium based ones (up
| to 3000mAh for a single AA vs 3200mAh for iPhone 14 Pro).
| They're also safer and have lower self-discharge.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| That's 3000 mAh @1.5V vs. 3200mAh @...3.7V? That would
| give those alkaline AAs _half_ of the energy density of a
| lithium one. And, that 's single-use, which I'm not a fan
| of, because all the energy _embodied_ in a heavy metal
| cylinder goes to waste.
| pajko wrote:
| High capacity rechargeable NiMH and lithium batteries are
| 1.2V.
| Panzer04 wrote:
| The phone battery is bigger. For perspective, an 18650
| battery is substantially bigger than a AA, but the best
| they can do is ~3500mAh. Iirc AA lithium batteries are
| barely more dense than alkaline or nickel, and are
| awkwardly high voltage so require a buck corcuit, further
| harming performance.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Lithium chemistry in a AA form factor, with integrated
| downconversion and even charging port and circuitry in
| each individual battery, are cheaply available on Amazon,
| eBay, newegg etc. Depending on how much you want to
| spend, they range from no-name companies lying about huge
| capacities, to real brands advertising (unfortunately in
| mWh!) genuinely useful capacities, and they are CHEAP.
| They handily beat Ni-mh batteries in pretty much every
| way; capacity, self discharge, useful voltage until they
| die (this actually has a downside in that device battery
| indicators can't tell that the batteries are running
| low), cycle lifetime, no annoying management like having
| to be careful when and how you charge your batteries etc.
| butterknife wrote:
| The Li chemistry produces much higher voltages and so
| would require step down circuitry to function as a direct
| replacement for AA/AAA. If you are talking about form
| factor, then there are a lot of similar size or smaller
| cells available.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I'm talking about having rechargeable AA/AAAs with higher
| power density, possibly using the same chemistry as in
| phones, laptops, drones, etc., so the industry could cut
| down on the amount of variation in sizes and connector
| types (which could possibly make the batteries somewhat
| cheaper thanks to less variation in manufacturing -
| though I suppose the price driver is still the
| chemistry).
|
| What's the minimum voltage we could get without
| intervention? I'm not well-versed in batteries, but I do
| recall that a typical Li-Ion cell has 3.7V on output,
| which might be tricky to fit into _one_ AA /AAA, but
| isn't that far from _two_ AA /AAAs.
|
| While there's no standard way for devices to accept
| multiple AA/AAAs, to a first approximation, a Li-Ion cell
| reformatted into a shape of two AAs with ~1-2mm "space"
| between them, would fit all my remotes and a third of my
| children's toys - so I could see a "Li-Ion double AA"
| working as a product, provided it could shed that 0.7V
| somewhere. The biggest problem would be devices accepting
| odd number of batteries.
| butterknife wrote:
| There might be some market but anecdotally, AA/AAA as a
| widely accepted platform, and for that matter replaceable
| batteries in general, seem to be a thing of past.
|
| I do have devices where the 2xAAs are in a column
| configuration.
|
| Edit: Replaced remote with devices (it's a keyboard not a
| remote)
| detaro wrote:
| There are standard formats for cells in Lithium-based
| chemistries, but they are different sizes then the Ni-
| based ones because of the entirely different voltages.
| How (not) commonly they are used tells you something how
| much industry cares about avoiding many different sizes.
| (part of it is probably also that round cells are space-
| inefficient in devices that aren't tube-shaped - most
| common consumer use cases where the consumer handles
| individual cells are flashlights and vape devices, and
| some markets do have proprietary designs as de-facto
| standards)
|
| Some manufacturers also make Li-Ion replacements for
| multi-AA devices, but thats then specific to manufacturer
| and device and the exact placement it expects.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think the issue is that li-ion isn't that much better
| than NiMH as to be worth it. It's also worth noting that
| there are already standard sized Li-ion batteries. 18650
| batteries (so called because they are 18mm diameter by
| 650mm long) are the most common, but there are a bunch of
| other standard sizes. These are commonly used in things
| torches (flashlights) and headlamps.
| rjmunro wrote:
| They sell double-AA sized rechargeable batteries for XBox
| controllers. https://www.xbox.com/en-
| GB/accessories/batteries-chargers/pl...
|
| This specific battery is unlikely to work for other
| devices because the controller has an extra connector,
| presumably to detect it and control charging (which
| happens over a USB cable). You'd at least need an XBox
| controller to charge it.
| agapon wrote:
| There are such batteries, I saw them on Aliexpress. They
| are not cheap, though.
| reisse wrote:
| The catch is that Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have much
| higher self-discharge rate than alkaline AA/AAAs, so you
| could not use them in remote controls anyway.
|
| For powering iPhones, you can buy a few 18650 with a
| type-C/lightning case from AliExpress, but most people
| will prefer just buying a powerbank.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _The catch is that Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have
| much higher self-discharge rate than alkaline AA /AAAs,
| so you could not use them in remote controls anyway._
|
| How does that compare with NiMh, or whichever is the
| current standard chemistry for rechargeable AA/AAAs? I
| may be misguided here, but I generally avoid regular
| single-use AA/AAAs, as it feels like a complete waste of
| energy - even if properly disposed of, I don't imagine
| they get recharged by some factory and put back on the
| market, so all the _embodied_ energy that went into
| making them is lost.
|
| > _For powering iPhones, you can buy a few 18650 with a
| type-C /lightning case from AliExpress, but most people
| will prefer just buying a powerbank._
|
| At least some of the power banks I've disassembled in the
| past were just 18650s with a case, USB port and charging
| circuitry, so I can't blame people for buying it already
| pre-assembled.
| deelowe wrote:
| NiMh is better but alkaline still lasts longer. For low
| drain devices like remotes where shelf life is a bigger
| concern than power draw, I've heard zinc is better still.
| These are often labeled "heavy duty."
| Panzer04 wrote:
| You'd need a buck converter for discharging the battery,
| and they aren't much better than NiMH batteries at it. So
| it's cheaper to just buy Eneloops if you want AA/AAA
| batteries
| mnw21cam wrote:
| I have some such AAA batteries. Not for the extra
| capacity - I'm not convinced they actually have any
| better capacity than the NiMH I was using before, but
| because they hold 1.5V for the duration of their charge,
| and for some reason my headphone can't cope with less
| than 1.5V.
| dotancohen wrote:
| > Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to
| fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone
| sizes mean there is no standard size.
|
| But the voltage remains the same: 3.7 discharged and 4.2
| volts fully charged.
|
| I really don't care if the outer dimensions of the
| battery are sloppy by 5 mm or if the capacity is smaller
| (or larger) by a few hundred or even a thousand mAh - so
| long as I can replace the _absolutely dead_ battery
| already in the device. I'll pad out the rest with
| styrofoam or even just squeeze some tacky clay in there
| to prevent it from rattling.
| mongol wrote:
| Imagine a smartphone designed to use AAA batteries. That
| would be something. Would be cool to see.
| llampx wrote:
| It would be easier to have a new standard of Li-Ion or
| Li-poly batteries optimized for newer devices, with flat
| rectangular (stackable?) packs. They would also be
| suitable for the current demands of current devices. (see
| what I did there?)
| Tams80 wrote:
| We absolutely could.
|
| But we won't as manufacturers want to use batteries in
| shapes they want. In the case of laptops of bigger this
| also often ends up with there still being space despite
| them using a custom size.
|
| We were pretty close to a couple of standards of Li-Ion
| flat battery in the mid to late 00s, at least in Europe,
| due to proliferation of Nokia and Sony Ericsson. Nokia
| especially had some batteries that they used across
| several models. And the voltage and current being the
| same, you could also use smaller batteries in some
| models.
|
| The latter has been useful for the 808 PureView I have.
| Getting the specific battery that it used is now
| impossible. But it can take a very common Nokia battery
| with a slightly lower capacity.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Would be cool to see.
|
| Probably not the word I'd have used. You'd need what, 6
| high-capacity AAAs to get standard battery size/life?
| Maybe 8? Possibly 10 with recent phones?
| Nition wrote:
| An iPhone 14 Pro has a 3,200mAh battery.
|
| The Energiser rechargeable AAA I happen to have here is
| 800mAh.
|
| So exactly four standard rechargeable AAAs. Not bad
| really.
|
| Edit: As explained below, this is incorrect, as I didn't
| take voltage into account.
| coder543 wrote:
| "mAh" is a useless measurement that should be banned from
| marketing to the public, period. It does not actually
| represent the energy stored in the batteries, and it can
| easily mislead people. I also get annoyed that _no one_
| uses Ah, when "thousands of thousandths" is a really
| annoying way to communicate. 3200mAh -> 3.2Ah. Why do no
| manufacturers understand this? And why don't
| manufacturers just use a proper unit that measures the
| energy stored in the battery?
|
| You _must_ compare watt-hours (or use joules, if you
| like) for it to be meaningful. AAA voltage is 1.5V,
| lithium ion voltage is 3.7V or 4.2V or something, which
| means that each "mAh" is worth several times as much as
| one from a AAA battery.
|
| The iPhone 14 Pro battery is about 12Wh. A single AAA
| battery has about 1.9Wh, according to google. So, 6 AAA
| batteries, optimistically, excluding other factors that
| could raise the count. Using your number of
| 800mAh*1.5V=1.2Wh, which would mean 10 AAA batteries.
| dotancohen wrote:
| mAh is perfectly fine for a first-order comparison of two
| competing batteries, because those two batteries will
| only compete for a specific workload if they have the
| same voltage. If I need a phone with a large battery, and
| all phones are 3.8 volts (yes, I do mean 3.7-4.2) then
| comparing mAh is useful, (assuming background battery
| usage of the two devices is similar, which actually isn't
| often true, but that's a different issue).
| masklinn wrote:
| > mAh is perfectly fine for a first-order comparison of
| two competing batteries
|
| And yet it's still dumb, because the actual energy
| density would let you make the exact same comparison
| anyway, _and_ it would allow for easier comparison with
| other battery types or contexts.
|
| > If I need a phone with a large battery, and all phones
| are 3.8 volts (yes, I do mean 3.7-4.2) then comparing mAh
| is useful
|
| It's not, there's a >10% difference between the top and
| the bottom of the range.
|
| Just give actual energy values, it's _strictly more
| useful_.
| dwighttk wrote:
| Advertisers don't care about useful. Many customers see
| mWh and mAh and think "that's probably the same... and
| look! this one has thousands of em!"
| masklinn wrote:
| Weirdly this doesn't even hold, every battery is more
| than 1V so the Wh is always larger than the Ah. Makes no
| sense.
| consp wrote:
| The load characteristics also matter. Under certain load
| profiles those AAAs won't come even close to their rated
| capacity (no matter what misleading unit used). I also
| find the 1.9wh very optimistic, I guess you took the
| average AA capacity, in which case the battery would
| almost become bigger than the phone.
| coder543 wrote:
| Load characteristics do complicate things as well, but I
| figured even the optimistic case involved enough
| batteries to dissuade anyone from this idea.
|
| There are other non-rechargeable chemistries that are far
| more energy dense than AAA batteries, and those might be
| interesting to discuss.
| masklinn wrote:
| 1.9 seems like a typo as 12/1.9 is 6.3, nowhere near 10.
| 800mAh seems to be a pretty available capacity and yields
| 1200mWh which tracks with the factor.
|
| Though I think I've seen up to 1200.
| coder543 wrote:
| 1.9Wh was the number I saw on Google. 10 was just me not
| thinking clearly late at night. I updated my comment.
| rjmunro wrote:
| I think the mAh stays more or less constant no matter how
| fast you discharge the battery, but as current increases,
| the voltage drops so the total watt-hours is lower.
| masklinn wrote:
| Preach brother.
|
| I guess it kinda worked when everything was 1.5V but even
| then it was pretty stupid, and it's been a while.
|
| And I feel like we've regressed somehow? Didn't every
| smartphone use to advertise battery capacity in (m)Wh,
| like laptops? I feel like just a few years ago that was
| the prominent measure, and you'd get voltage and Ah as
| side-notes, e.g. the iPhone 12 wiki page states
|
| > 3.83 V 10.78 Wh (2,815 mAh)
| linmob wrote:
| My Newton MessagePad 2100 used 4 AA batteries, the Palm
| m105 used 2 AAA batteries, so this used to be possible
| with monochrome displays.
|
| But: Watt hours (Wh) are quite low for these NiMH
| rechargebles. I think what would be preferable would be a
| standardised size of phone-fitting Li-Ion batteries that
| manufacturers are required to use.
|
| (I highly doubt that this will ever happen, though.)
| 867-5309 wrote:
| pretty sure >10 years ago I had an array of aftermarket
| Li-Ion batteries for the Samsung Galaxy S2, which were
| able to be quickly swapped in and out when needed. there
| were same sized ones with slightly higher capacity than
| the one the phone came with, then there were double
| thickness ones with double the capacity that came with
| their own replacement battery cover. think they went up
| to 5000mAh. there were the usual Chinese 'gold' and
| 'fire' brands, but you could also pay a bit more for
| Japanese. they all worked and never swelled or exploded.
| perhaps I was just lucky. those were the days..
| jaclaz wrote:
| Years before, the typical (at the time very common at
| least here) Motorola MicroTac and later models:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MicroTAC
|
| had a battery which was the actual "back cover" (it was
| connected to the phone via sliding), and everyone had at
| least two batteries, there were all kind of slim to
| bulkier sizes.
|
| Some of them (medium sized) simply contained 5 (Ni-Cd or
| Ni-Mh) AAA batteries.
| yawniek wrote:
| I have one. But is a nokia from the 80ies
| TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote:
| Loved those. You could get an extended battery, nearly
| doubling the thickness of the phone.
| strogonoff wrote:
| I've recently started using active noise cancellation
| headphones that are powered by a single AAA battery, and
| this significantly lightened my battery life anxiety[0].
| It's a completely different feeling when a device that's
| with you every day is not "disposable" anymore and
| liberating to not be hostage to battery condition. It'll
| probably last for as long as I maintain it, and if charge
| runs out at an inconvenient moment I can simply pop in a
| spare.
|
| In case of smartphones it could work if we go through a
| fundamental shift: switch to e-ink or similar, reduce
| expectations of hardware performance, be much more
| efficient as app developers and have reliable ways of
| testing that efficiency. I'd welcome this personally, but
| I doubt even Apple with its marketing prowess could make
| it desirable for mainstream audiences after years of
| stressing CPU, GPU, RAM numbers and gaming capabilities.
|
| I suspect it's probably less of a possibility with
| laptops. Keeping battery designs proprietary, being free
| from regulatory friction, being able to charge for
| replacement is probably part of the incentives that got
| them where they are in terms of capacity and size. If we
| mandated using standardized easily replaceable batteries
| a la AA/AAA, we would have bulkier laptops that can't
| last a day (let alone on any demanding task), and spares
| would be too bulky to carry for those who want to walk
| light.
|
| [0] Stressing over battery charge and battery health of
| our devices. A situation where battery runs out just as
| we _vitally_ need the device is enough to be in once, so
| we charge defensively. We also know that battery health
| decreases over time (the device is gradually "used up"),
| and we try to prolong it: we experience stress every time
| the battery is too low since this runs it down _and_
| every time we leave it connected for too long because
| constantly topping up the charge to 100% _also_ runs it
| down. So we subconsciously track short-term battery
| charge and long-term battery health, and we are painfully
| aware that they deteriorate with every second--and unlike
| external wear, this deterioration concerns not aesthetics
| but device's ability to be more than a brick. (It is
| probably less concerning to those who drive a fossil fuel
| car everywhere, those who spend most of their time home
| or at work, or those who feel financially and ethically
| OK just getting a new device whenever it seems as if the
| battery doesn't hold or a new model comes out.)
| ThemalSpan wrote:
| I think we can all agree that maximizing profit is a cause,
| while also acknowledging that the situation is not ideal.
| There are many solutions to this self-imposed problem, like
| standardizing the battery interfaces.
|
| I agree most company's have no incentive to do that. I think
| those incentives should be put in place though.
| kypro wrote:
| > The lack of a replacable battery is infuriating because it's
| planned obselescence of a FLIR device.
|
| I thought the move away from easily removable cases and
| batteries was more for waterproofing reasons?
|
| Plus, I'm guessing the battery can be replaced, just not by the
| average user. I'm sure you could get it replaced if you're
| willing to pay a repair fee.
| almog wrote:
| It doesn't have to prevent it from being waterproof, see for
| example Samsung Galaxy XCover 6 Pro which has removable
| battery and IP68 rating.
|
| I really wish phone manufacturers started making flagship-
| like phones with a removable battery.
| akita-ken wrote:
| All those use-cases you've described actually seem really
| practical, especially the fraud detection. Being able to detect
| things that would otherwise be invisible or require physical
| contact to ascertain already makes it a worthwhile EDC tool in
| my opinion.
| jcims wrote:
| I've got a Seek Thermal attachment from my iPhone I got on
| cyber Monday a few years ago. Once you have one you find all
| sorts of uses for them.
| m463 wrote:
| I'm sort of reminded of how cellphone cameras became used for
| selfies.
|
| I wonder what other use cases previously "serious" technology
| will be used for.
|
| I remember someone had a magnet of some sort embedded in their
| finger and could detect current fluctuations in underground
| electrical systems underneath a city sidewalk.
| coder543 wrote:
| I don't understand why everyone is acting like replacement
| batteries are unavailable.
|
| Here's an amazon link to a variety of options:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/CAT-S60-Cell-Phone-Replacement-Batter...
| kvakvs wrote:
| The statement about battery not being replaceable is false.
| They are replaceable. But the phone body is sealed to deliver
| the water and dust resistance rating from its technical
| specs, so opening it is an entire new adventure in itself.
| sllabres wrote:
| Water resistant (e.g. 30 min / 1 m) mobile phones with
| exchangeable batteries were quite common. They had easy to
| procure LiIon batteries which could replaced even by a
| clumsy person in minutes.
|
| Would prefer that to a watertight phone with non
| replaceable batteries as aging or dying batteries are more
| common in my experience than my desire to go on a dive with
| my phone.
| minhazm wrote:
| > Water resistant (e.g. 30 min / 1 m) mobile phones with
| exchangeable batteries were quite common
|
| I wouldn't say they were common, at least not for android
| smartphones. The first water resistant android phone was
| the Motorola Defy[1] in 2010. For Samsung they had the S4
| Active and then the S5 had some water resistance. But
| then the S6 removed support for replaceable batteries. So
| the only Samsung phones with easily replaceable batteries
| and any water resistance were the S4 Active, S5 Active
| and the S5.
|
| I think you're right that IP67 (30min / 1 meter) is
| probably achievable but I think most people prefer the
| better water resistance and by the time their phone
| battery degrades sufficiently they usually want a new
| phone. Additionally it's already possible to get your
| battery replaced. At least Apple will replace your phone
| battery going back to the 5S for $49 up to $99 for
| current models. I prefer this model where I have a
| trustworthy place to get the battery serviced that will
| preserve the water resistance for a somewhat reasonable
| price. I tried to look at the battery replacement cost
| for Samsung phones but couldn't find it, so maybe that's
| not a service they offer directly or it's just difficult
| to find.
|
| [1] https://www.androidauthority.com/first-water-
| resistant-andro...
| sllabres wrote:
| Agree. With common I was thinking of "not specialized
| rugged phones" but more consumer class. (As you have
| written Samsung S5, S5 mini, ...)
| Tams80 wrote:
| Yes, but the point is that they are now only available on
| very niche devices.
|
| There was a brief period where common devices had ingress
| resistance and easily removeable batteries. The most
| notable being the Samsung Galaxy S5.
| ZiiS wrote:
| If the manufactures wanted to they could easily make a
| sealed phone and a sealed battery and just clip them
| together. The extra thickness of two layers of
| waterproofing between them is arguable on a fashion phone
| but irrelevant on a product like this.
| Izkata wrote:
| My last flip phone had a replaceable battery and was
| waterproof: the cover had a rubber gasket and you had to
| use a coin or key to pry it open.
| harry8 wrote:
| I've had the competition's ruggedized android phone with a flir
| camera for a couple of years now? [1]
|
| [1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001227941445.html
|
| I don't love it like I did the nokia n900 but it is decent. It's
| an android that goes underwater, can take photos there and you
| can drop without being worried about breaking it including the
| screen - all phones should be like that.
|
| The flir camera pics look just like that, haven't really found a
| use for it yet but I guess I might one day. The endoscope is also
| a cool idea that hasn't really worked out so well when I've
| wanted to use it. It works it just an endoscope frequently isn't
| as useful as you'd hope it could be.
|
| Like every single android phone vendor they really need to get
| out of the business of providing the OS and set it up as a
| community project so it works the way you want and has upgrades
| if you want. Not that Apple, controlling everything, are better
| at this iphone6 now junk etc.
| Denvercoder9 wrote:
| > all phones should be like that.
|
| No, let's have some choice. You pay for the ruggedness in size,
| weight and aesthetics. That's not a trade-off everyone wants to
| make.
| harry8 wrote:
| I think maybe you're confusing the expression of an ideal
| with making a particular implentation toward it mandatory?
| dangus wrote:
| Specialized devices based on general purpose devices like these
| are almost always a poor value proposition.
|
| You're getting a crummy phone nowhere near as good as flagships
| from Apple, Google, and Samsung, just because you can get a FLIR
| camera integrated.
|
| Why not just buy one of these? https://industrial-
| reviews.com/smartphone-thermal-camera/
| rasz wrote:
| $650 160x120 9Hz thermal imager
|
| why bother when Chinese are manufacturing ~$200 _25hz_ 256x192
| standard USB3 microbolometers? Look up INFIRAY P2 Pro/T2S+,
| SNDWAY SW-8256 etc
|
| mikeselectricstuff: Infiray P2 Pro smartphone thermal camera
| review & teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMQeXq1ujn0
|
| STS Telecom: Infiray T2S+ Thermal Camera Review
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1JBA4W6n8
|
| The 25hz part is important because microbolometers are under ITAR
| restrictions meaning no US/allied manufacturer offers anything
| over 9Hz to ordinary consumers.
| FeistySkink wrote:
| What does the frequency you mention affect?
| rasz wrote:
| Refresh rate. The idea was its harder to aim at 9Hz.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Does importing an ITAR restricted device cause legal issues?
| Daub wrote:
| Since Apple started making phones out of freekin glass, I have
| only bought rugged phones. One problem I had with my Cat was that
| the compass did not work properly (inaccurate and erratic). This
| made using Google maps almost impossible. I had the same problem
| with my rugged Doogeee. My rugged Nokia is a lot better, but is
| woefully under powered.
|
| In my efforts to find the perfect rugged phone, I honestly
| feeling like I am chasing butterflies.
| aembleton wrote:
| Just get a good protective case for the phone of your choice.
| Villodre wrote:
| I had an S60 some 4 years ago, also equipped with a FLIR camera
| and although I tried to love the phone, I simply couldn't.
|
| For starters it had a mediocre Snapdragon SoC - better than the
| average cheapophone, but lacking in a product that was in the
| premium tier regarding price. The FLIR camera was neat, but
| inferior to the add-on camera I was using at the time, yet still
| decent. The cherry on top came when the "ruggedised" phone
| couldn't cope with normal wear and tear and the plastic started
| to separate from the case, in a manner similar to the grips in an
| Xbox Controller Elite game pad that I also owned during that
| time.
|
| At that point I just desisted from having the CAT phone as my
| mainly driver and mostly relegated it to the role of auxiliary
| tool just to have it die suddenly on me. I tried to follow CAT's
| convoluted RMA process (or perhaps their Bullitt licensee who
| actually make their phones, I can't remember), chock-full of
| awful chats and sending non-stop repeated information prompts in
| order to process a return until I realised I bought it from
| Amazon and just obtained a refund.
|
| As I said, I really tried to like the product but my experience
| was so horrible that I gave up on "working phones" altogether.
| bjarneh wrote:
| Every time I crack my screen I swear that next time I'll get one
| of those "rugged" phones. My last phone purchase (Asus Zenfone
| 8); lasted exactly 2 weeks before I cracked the screen on my
| bathroom floor. I was worried about having "only" 128Gb of
| storage; guess I should have been more concerned about that
| screen. Nice device though...
| fomine3 wrote:
| I want a second phone with FLIR for fun and profit, but I don't
| want a heavy duty like existing Ulefone one. Maybe it's better to
| buy a external USB FLIR.
| c_o_n_v_e_x wrote:
| This would almost be better off being marketed as a thermal
| camera with a cellular connection. This would have been handy
| during my commissioning days, removing the tedious steps of
| getting the files from the camera to a computer to the cloud or
| sending someone a live view.
| walterbell wrote:
| UNI-T UTi260M for Android: USB-C thermal camera with 25hz 256x192
| sensor for $400, https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Resolution-
| Handheld-Durability-...
| rasz wrote:
| repackaged $200 INFIRAY P2 Pro/T2S+, SNDWAY SW-8256
| zo1 wrote:
| So annoyed at the market right now. Here is the same "UNI-T"
| camera from AliExpress under the name "InfiRay P2":
|
| https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004950256049.html
|
| So which effing company makes this, and why are we allowing
| this stupid white labeling to occur.
|
| Funny aside. Maybe Elon should buy Amazon and kick off all drop
| shippers, white label resellers, chinese sellers and all
| duplicate items by enforcing unique codes for every unique
| product. Make Amazon Great Again.
| walterbell wrote:
| Looks like Infiray makes thermal sensors _and_ consumer
| products, perhaps they have a similar business model as FLIR,
| https://www.infiray.com/products/tiny1-b-micro-lwir-
| thermal-... & https://www.infiray.com/products/thermal-
| camera-for-smartpho...
| asddubs wrote:
| you can tell by the shape alone that it's not the exact same
| product. although obviously a lot of these cameras are based
| on the same sensor, though obviously that is really most of
| the product for these little phone adapters
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| $334 + tax, not bad at all
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