[HN Gopher] We're making Firefox accessible and delightful for e...
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We're making Firefox accessible and delightful for everyone
Author : Amorymeltzer
Score : 55 points
Date : 2022-12-05 19:29 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.mozilla.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.mozilla.org)
| hulitu wrote:
| > We're making Firefox accessible and delightful for everyone
|
| Then don't draw anything in the titlebar and let the user decide
| how big shall be the scrollbar . For a start ...
| smeagull wrote:
| Could they stop disabling the browser when it updates (running
| against the about:config settings) so that I don't lose work when
| I have a partially functional browser that won't load new pages
| which breaks every single page application?
| lucb1e wrote:
| > a partially functional browser that won't load new pages
|
| I thought it was just me because it was going on for so long!
|
| Since maybe half a year, every time you use Firefox for a while
| (I suspend to RAM when not using my system), it starts to
| cheerfully go "whoops, this tab has crashed!" or "We need just
| one tiny thing to keep going [nuke1 and restart whole browser
| as the only button]". Makes me want to firewall mozilla IP
| ranges and subscribe to an rss feed to see when a security
| release came out so that I can go to the update menu manually
| and do it not when I am in the middle of looking something up
| during a phone call with someone.
|
| It's also not as though this uses the regular updates
| mechanism. There is still Menu -> About -> "you're up to date"
| / "click here to download update" / "click here to restart to
| apply update" and it will also notify you of those releases.
| This is some other mechanism going on under the hood. Perhaps
| the Experiments thing that gets randomly deployed to random
| people's browsers, not sure, I thought I disabled all of that
| years ago.
|
| 1Yes I know firefox and other browsers nowadays have this
| textarea/input content restoring and such. Ask me how well that
| works now that every developer decided they're too cool for
| basic HTML elements whose functionality have been honed for
| close to three decades now, and would rather re-invent
| everything from page loading to input fields by using dynamic
| javascript instead.
| anm89 wrote:
| Yeah, is that why they forcefully shut down my browser mid
| session any time they feel like updating?
|
| Seriously thinking of moving away from firefox these days
| babypuncher wrote:
| I've never had this happen on Windows or macOS. In Linux, I
| have had Firefox complain when my package manager updates
| Firefox while it is running, which I think is perfectly normal.
|
| What an odd thing to randomly complain about, and completely
| off-topic in regards to the article.
| b1476 wrote:
| Agreed. I often update (in Fedora) which causes Firefox to be
| restarted - never had any issues clicking the 'restart
| Firefox' button though which relaunches it and opens the last
| session, often opening dozens of older tabs without issue.
| Bizarre thing to complain about.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Nope, on ubuntu you get a popup while you are browsing the net
| saying that SNAP UPDATES ARE POSTPONED because you started
| something that is entombed in a snap...
|
| Then it does this every time you boot your os and start the
| browser first.
|
| Maybe, next time, before you start your browser it should
| update the snaps, then let you use the browser. NOOOOOOOO
| WAAAY! Display the popup for 2 weeks... or before you commit
| self harm you do the update yourself.
|
| And we are going to Mars!
| lucb1e wrote:
| I'm not the parent poster, but this happens to me as well. It's
| new and didn't happen about a year ago or before that.
|
| To everyone saying this is Snap: I'm using Debian. It does not
| have snap.
|
| To everyone saying this is apt: no, I also do not apt upgrade
| and then wonder why tab processes suddenly can't talk to the
| master process anymore. Unattended upgrades is not installed on
| this system (it's not a server and I do manual upgrades
| regularly, it's not as though that unexpectedly reports that
| there aren't any to be applied).
|
| It happens both on systems where firefox-esr is installed via
| apt and where Firefox is installed directly from Mozilla
| without going through apt (stability vs. timely features).
|
| I do remember that this indeed happens when I once did upgrade
| via apt and then continued using Firefox. Similar effect with
| e.g. Signal.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This could well be an issue with 'snap', see earlier thread on
| the subject.
| NoahKAndrews wrote:
| I believe that only happens when a Linux package manager
| updates Firefox while it's running.
| eikenberry wrote:
| How can this happen when Linux package managers don't auto-
| update (without help)? I mean if you don't want Firefox
| updated while you are using it you just just don't update it.
| If your distro has some sort of auto-update by default (do
| any do this?, I thought available update notifications was
| the standard) then disable it and get control of that back.
| Auto-updating packages is an anti-pattern (ie. bad).
| mjw1007 wrote:
| It can also happen if you have two copies of 'stock' Firefox
| running (with different profiles) and one of them runs the
| update.
| deathanatos wrote:
| ... it doesn't, and I've just run `pacman -S` to check. (& it
| didn't.)
|
| (It does cause some tabs to message that a browser restart is
| required. Even so ... this is really the first I hit this, as
| I'm usually doing updates when it is opportunistic to do so,
| such as right before a reboot (so any kernel updates
| happen).)
| TillE wrote:
| Probably. Never seen anything like that on Windows or macOS.
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| I get 'Firefox needs to restart' all the time on MacOS.
| eropple wrote:
| Right, but it doesn't auto-update and kill your session.
| micahdeath wrote:
| Happens on Windows
| smeagull wrote:
| Happens on Mac all the time.
| deathanatos wrote:
| ... Firefox on my work macOS is presently has an emblem
| on the hamburger menu, and if you open the menu: "Update
| available -- restart now". I've been delaying for days?
| weeks? at this point.
|
| Clicking it causes the browser to disappear for ~20
| seconds, +10s for the UI to become available.
| LightHugger wrote:
| I laughed... mozilla isn't the first company to hide user
| unfriendly nonsense under a guise of accessibility, but they're
| certainly in the running for causing the most annoyance with it!
| wlesieutre wrote:
| What's user unfriendly about copying text out of images and
| making screenreaders faster?
| Barrin92 wrote:
| That image to text feature is great. I have someone who is almost
| blind in my immediate family and the increase of text screenshots
| is a really big problem for people who rely on screen readers. As
| a side-note this seems to be fueled by short-form platforms like
| Twitter that impose character limits, really not a good thing.
| worble wrote:
| This is offtopic (and probably against the rules) but why is it
| that every thread about Firefox seems to be filled with toxic
| vitriol? It seems that everything Firefox does causes anguish for
| everyone in the comments, but I rarely see such hate leveraged at
| Chrome posts/updates. What causes this effect?
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| I use Firefox, except when I need to look at a web site that
| was developed by people who don't care about Firefox users.
|
| When I see Firefox roll out features that don't really change
| anything, all the while steadily losing market share, I'm
| disappointed.
|
| But I also can't think of anything Mozilla could do to fight
| the dominance of Chrome and Safari, so I guess it's not that
| disappointing.
| adamrezich wrote:
| your point might've been more salient if you'd waited for said
| vitriol to actually materialize before posting
| macspoofing wrote:
| I don't think the hate is directed towards Firefox, but rather
| Mozilla. I know I lost faith in Mozilla when they posted a blog
| entry a couple years ago to detail reasons behind their
| restructuring and what their renewed focus is, and made it seem
| like Firefox was an afterthought [1].
|
| Choice quote:
|
| >Mozilla exists so the internet can help the world collectively
| meet the range of challenges a moment like this presents.
| Firefox is a part of this. * _But we know we also need to go
| beyond the browser to give people new products and technologies
| that both excite them and represent their interests.*_
| (emphasis mine)
|
| What other products? The entire organizational focus should be
| centered on Firefox so that it can meaningfully compete with
| Chrome, as Firefox is the _only_ truly open alternative to
| Safari /Chrome.
|
| A little below that, they list their new 5 areas to focus on
| and ... no mention of Firefox there.
|
| [1]https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/changing-world-
| changing-...
| fruffy wrote:
| It seems this is because the company has broadly shifted focus
| to softer social issues rather than technical topics. Mozilla
| keeps struggling with market share and users are anguished to
| see that their (former) favorite browser is investing resources
| in topics they find to be a distraction.
|
| At least that is my interpretation. Mozilla is not addressing
| the same audience any longer, a lot of which is technically-
| minded folk on HN, Reddit, /g/, etc.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| Possibly a sense of betrayal? There was a time when FF seemed
| like it had a future of being a large player in the browser
| market. Hanging in single-digit usage seems like that time has
| come/gone, yet we continue to see loads of things that are...
| ancillary to that earlier dream of 'being #1' (or just a larger
| player).
|
| Some announcements are 'nice', but almost all seem to point to
| 'too little too late' for the original dream.
|
| I say this as someone who uses chrome/ff/safari daily, and
| threw a 'Mozilla release party' (with a Mozilla cake!) back
| when Mozilla hit 1.0, and donated early on to FF/mozilla.
|
| They seemingly squandered years becoming less and less relevant
| to day to day usage, and it bugs some folks. On top of that, we
| get treated to press releases and social media tidbits now and
| then of "we're laying off dozens/hundreds of people, and our
| CEO makes millions of dollars". Depressing to see what it's
| become vs what people expected years ago...
| hairofadog wrote:
| I think for the same reason that nobody is as critical of the
| Star Wars movies as the most die-hard Star Wars fan, or the
| same reason that nobody hates anybody as much as ex-spouses
| hate each other after a marriage gone wrong.
| wryun wrote:
| Chrome is understood to be controlled by a profit-seeking
| corporation. If people are using Chrome, they're mostly ok with
| this.
|
| Firefox is controlled by a not-for-profit which is dedicating
| to making the internet a better place. People who would also
| like to make the internet a better place tend to get quite
| worked up when they feel Mozilla is not doing what they'd do.
|
| (Disclaimer: I mostly happily use Firefox)
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| Because it used to feel like Firefox was on our side. At some
| point over the last 20 years it started to feel like they
| didn't care about us anymore. It felt like they cared more
| about attracting others than keeping us around because they
| know we're stuck without any viable alternatives. Everybody has
| always known Chrome was evil, so no one bothered getting an
| emotional attachment, at best the only argument anybody had in
| favor of chrome was that it was fast.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > It felt like they cared more about attracting others than
| keeping us around
|
| And worse, they weren't (and aren't) even attracting others,
| so their antagonism towards their long-term users was even
| less justified.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Maybe because people in the know think that Chrome is pure evil
| and Firefox should be the shiny knight in golden armor to
| behead the evil monster, but in reality it's a clown disguised
| as a knight.
|
| The announcement reads: "more than 1 billion people around the
| world who live with disabilities."
|
| And with the new ocr image feature they will all become Firefox
| users, just watch the usage statistics in the next few months.
|
| That's why.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the OCR thing is just enabling a recent-ish,
| built-in Mac and iOS platform feature (I bet it already
| worked on FF iOS, in fact, since that's Webkit under the
| hood).
|
| Thought it is a pretty great feature, to be fair.
| kdmccormick wrote:
| This is exactly the vitriol that GP is talking about. Yes,
| their market share is low, and yes, they're working on
| accessibility features anyway. Why does that bother you so
| much?
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| tbh I think the ocr image feature is precisely the sort of
| thing I want people working on browsers to be thinking about.
| A lack of accessibility in technology is a huge barrier to an
| increasingly bigger facet of interacting with society.
| Working on increasing accessibility is the sort of fighting-
| for-the-little-guys I want a nonprofit to be doing.
| cosmotic wrote:
| Firefox team has a history of making huge, sweeping UI changes
| which users absolutely hate. Chrome has remained largely
| unchanged since its first version. Users that chose Firefox
| because of the way the UI works at that moment often have the
| rug pulled out from under them.
| noicebrewery wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if there was some light brigading going
| on from rivals. There's also some really lazy frontend devs out
| there that get indignant about testing on Firefox.
|
| Chrome is the new IE and Google is the new Microsoft. They make
| up their own standards on a whim, which thanks to market
| dominance everyone is forced to follow. They collect user data
| without permission. They waste computer resources. They push
| people towards other Google products in an anti competitive
| way.
|
| Mozilla has made some dumb mistakes here and there but it pales
| in comparison to the very serious threat that Chrome, and
| Chromium in general has to the free web and to users.
|
| It's worth noting that the complaints below have nothing to do
| with the article, which shows a pretty promising tech, and are
| just bagging out FF because just as you said, that's what
| happens on HN.
| Klonoar wrote:
| >I wouldn't be surprised if there was some light brigading
| going on from rivals. There's also some really lazy frontend
| devs out there that get indignant about testing on Firefox.
|
| The vitriol comes from people who want Firefox to return to
| being "just a browser", and to be honest more often than not
| are the Linux crowd. It's seemingly got nothing to do with
| rivalry (all the browser vendors are actually fairly chummy
| with each other) and frontend devs are more likely to just
| ignore Firefox than to complain about it (IME).
|
| HN has also just become far more vitriol-filled as of late.
| That's devolving into meta commentary and outside the
| purposes of this thread, though - just can't leave it
| uncommented on here.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Mozilla has made some dumb mistakes here and there but it
| pales in comparison to the very serious threat that Chrome,
| and Chromium in general has to the free web and to users.
|
| The company that owns Chrome is nearly the sole financial
| support of Firefox.
| morvita wrote:
| Which is also based entirely on their market dominance. I'm
| 100% convinced Google continues handing millions of dollars
| a year to Mozilla so Google can point at Firefox as
| competition when the regulators come knocking.
| BlackLotus89 wrote:
| Yeah I'm a firefox user and I don't click on posts about
| chrome. This is just a guess, but maybe everyone left using
| firefox does so because they believe in a free and open web and
| privacy and wish for firefox to succeed, but often feel
| disappointed when many news about firefox seem like step
| backwards. I for one am ok with how firefox is right now, it
| could be better, I hope that mozilla invests more in firefox,
| but I'm still holding out for alternatives like ladybird even
| if they are years away from being a usable alternative. Anyway
| just my 2 cents
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(page generated 2022-12-05 23:00 UTC)