[HN Gopher] DHS announces extension of Real ID full enforcement ...
___________________________________________________________________
DHS announces extension of Real ID full enforcement deadline
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 66 points
Date : 2022-12-05 18:09 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.dhs.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.dhs.gov)
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| Real ID was originally supposed to take in effect in 2008, so
| it's been delayed 17 years at this point, which is absurd. It was
| created 20 years before it would take effect.
|
| Why is it still being pursued?
| helpfulclippy wrote:
| Because the feds are very patient about these things. They knew
| that with consistent pressure, the holdout states would trickle
| on board, which is exactly what has happened. A couple states
| like Oregon held out until just the past few years, but now
| even they will give you a REAL ID.
| Arrath wrote:
| I feel like the "It is 2386, the government sends its annual
| delegation to Brussels to ask for a Brexit Extension. The
| people know not why, only that it is sacred tradition." meme
| applies here. The delay in implementation is ridiculous,
| bordering parody if we didn't know it was real life.
| noodlesUK wrote:
| I wish this were the case with brexit.
| somrand0 wrote:
| because as the world becomes a more chaotic and unstable place,
| the price of freedom (which is risk) also increases.
|
| I think that maybe "real ID" has been delayed because USA truly
| has been the most free country on earth (at the cost of poorer
| places not near the USA). And this kind of policy diminishes
| people's freedom. However given the current climate scenario,
| as well as the current geopolitical looming war.
|
| So that's why it's being pursued, because more chaos, less
| stability in the system, raises the cost of freedom, and the
| system has to know whose insurance premiums to raise. You gotta
| track and measure the people to do this (i.e. to control them).
| rtkwe wrote:
| DHS still wants to have more secure and validated IDs but
| states aren't issuing them as default so a lot of people take
| the easier licensing/ID option when they renew. My state, NC,
| doesn't issue them as default or even really push them at all.
| So the problem at the federal level is you have states and
| people not getting the IDs so making the transition to
| requiring REAL ID for flights etc would be potentially very
| disruptive.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| I mean, I get that DHS still wants it, but... Why?
|
| It might have made sense in 2005 with the post-2001 political
| climate, but it's 20 years later. We've been fine with the
| current IDs for so long, and the climate is not anywhere near
| the same now as it was then with relation to security
| theater.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Well at this point AFAIK it's a legal requirement that they
| do it. To fully cancel it would require action by congress
| to remove the program all together, I'm willing to bet (but
| not willing to find the language) that DHS can extend
| implementation but not cancel it.
| rolph wrote:
| apparently the only way to cancel it is to refuse to use
| it, en masse, its the low adoption rate by end user that
| keeps the deadline being kicked down the road
| mistrial9 wrote:
| California has had problems with large scale ID
| counterfeiting, which they really, really do not want to talk
| about
|
| Second item is an analogy.. when cash for transit here was
| changing to an electronic ID, the BART transit agency found
| excuse after excuse to delay.. later, a finance officer said
| in a public forum "we have a cash flow and we control that"
| .. much later, things changed somewhat. I believe that
| Federal vs State govt is simply at odds over the endless
| self-employment of administering these ID programs, and who
| calls the shots... and they should be ! Fed growth is
| virtually a one-way ratchet in practice.
| sylens wrote:
| This is it. States need to rip the band-aid off (or be forced
| to) so that people will be forced to get a Real ID at their
| next license renewal. Only then will this deadline pass
| without being extended
| Ancalagon wrote:
| Great for some but you know arizona doesnt require I renew
| my license until the 2050's
| elashri wrote:
| Not only this, Things are very confusing for people. During
| checking at my last flight I asked the officer about if Ohio
| ID would be sufficient for the real ID requirement. She
| couldn't answer because she didn't know how they issue it
| these days. If this a TSA officer, what about ordinary
| people?
| ianferrel wrote:
| I think this is one of those cases where you didn't ask the
| right question. The TSA officer of course doesn't know the
| ID issue policies of 50+ ID-issuing regions.
|
| If you had asked "How do I know if my ID meets the Real ID
| requirements", the answer is very simple: "It has an image
| of a star on the top of the ID".
| elashri wrote:
| >I think this is one of those cases where you didn't ask
| the right question. The TSA officer of course doesn't
| know the ID issue policies of 50+ ID-issuing regions.
|
| I thought that because it was a (main) Ohio airport, this
| will be an appropriate question but probably you are
| right.
|
| >If you had asked "How do I know if my ID meets the Real
| ID requirements", the answer is very simple: "It has an
| image of a star on the top of the ID".
|
| I was asking this question so that I can decide if it is
| worth getting one because I don't want to keep using my
| passport on domestic flights (risking it getting lost,
| and heache to have a replacement outside my home
| country).
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > the answer is very simple: "It has an image of a star
| on the top of the ID".
|
| Or an American Flag _somewhere_ on the ID (mine is
| randomly next to my photo), for the few states that only
| issue Real ID-compatible IDs in the form of EDL /EIDs.
| Looking at you, Washington.
|
| And the star can be:
|
| > gold or black star, a white star in a gold or black
| circle, a white star in a gold bear in the case of
| California, or a white star in a gold state map in the
| case of Maine.
|
| It's so absurdly complicated. As someone else said it'd
| be fantastic parody if it weren't real life.
| throw7 wrote:
| NY also has that 'American Flag' for an 'enhanced' ID.
| FYI, the 'enhanced' is only valid for land or sea
| crossings into canada/mexico/some caribbean destionations
| (you can't fly into those countries).
|
| You have to go to the DMV for 'real id or enhanced' so I
| won't be getting one anytime soon until they force it on
| me. I have a passport for travel anyway.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| I believe the US flag is common to all EDLs, that's their
| version of the gold star.
|
| What I meant by that statement is that Washington, unlike
| New York, _only_ has EDLs available as a Real ID-
| compliant option. There are two options: "Unreal" DL or
| EDL. So there is no gold star at all for some states,
| they _just_ have the US flag to denote something
| compatible with Real ID.
| riffic wrote:
| terrists.
|
| which these days are likely to be citizens. See this weekend's
| domestic terrorism event involving power substances being shot
| at in North Carolina:
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/attack-on-north-carolina-power-...
| [deleted]
| somrand0 wrote:
| why isn't a human being enough? why do we require a paper trail
| to what is already here?
|
| because we prefer to own things. it's always been all about whose
| is what. that's what any national ID says: "this person belongs
| to country which issued their passport".
|
| but then, if I am really a free human being, why must I be
| treated as my country's property?
| alexb_ wrote:
| The fact that the US Government does not have an actual ID card
| is absurd. A lot of problems - especially voting related ones! -
| can be solved by having an actual method of identification (not
| SSN). We're the only country where this is still a problem.
| HeavenFox wrote:
| One underappreciated benefit of the lack of national ID is it
| forces the system to deal with a plethora of different IDs, and
| therefore makes the lives of those with rare forms of ID (such
| as foreigners) much simpler.
| lxgr wrote:
| A nice idea, but in my experience that's not the case.
|
| Quite a lot of financial institutions will still only accept
| a US state-issued driver's license to open an account with
| them, even though they generally accept foreigners.
|
| I've even encountered one that accepts _only_ driver 's
| licenses and not (also DMV-issued) learner's permits or non-
| driving IDs!
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Voting is a state concern. The federal government isn't really
| involved, certainly not at the level of identifying voters.
| marsven_422 wrote:
| asveikau wrote:
| ID cards to vote would disproportionately obstruct legitimate
| voting of older people and racial minorities.
|
| You need to understand that adding barriers to vote in the US
| has a 100+ year history of nefarious things like preventing
| eligible black people from voting as their primary purpose,
| then a firm understanding of the motives of such modern
| discussions falls quickly into place. Silly people who complain
| about "wokeness", maybe many of them here on HN, will say I'm
| being paranoid or outdated in that description, but the history
| is dark, ugly, and very real.
| [deleted]
| thewrongthinker wrote:
| That is not an argument. The same way wokes say "look at
| Europe" when it comes to healthcare, conservatives say "look
| at Europe" when it comes to id cards.
|
| All through the EU, id cards are the norm. If we can do it,
| so can you. This whole "but think of the black people" is bs.
| What are you, some kind of racist? You don't think black
| people can get ids?
| kelnos wrote:
| I am usually very agreeable toward arguments of the form
| "all of Europe does X, so it's ridiculous to assume the US
| can't too". This is one of the cases where that's not true.
| ID requirements have been used for centuries in the US to
| disenfranchise various groups of voters. That's fact. If
| you know of a specific way to enforce strong ID
| requirements while somehow changing culture and politics
| dramatically for a huge swath of people such that this
| disenfranchisement stops being a problem, by all means,
| please let us know. Otherwise, your idea will not work.
| asveikau wrote:
| Obviously there's no shortage of ugly history in Europe,
| but Europe doesn't have this particular historical context.
| I _would_ expect Europeans to be naive about this. I 've
| had this discussion before.
|
| > You don't think black people can get ids?
|
| Statistically, they are less likely to do so.
|
| Edit: For me, an eye opening tidbit was this admission by a
| Republican strategist that the late 20th century discourse
| was about shifting from overt language about racism to more
| covert, abstract, economic talking points that are still
| rooted in racism. This is a left wing source but has the
| actual audio recording of that admission.
| https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-
| atwa... -- the takeaway is that you can't take a surface
| level read on a proposal and trust that no direct mention
| of race implies that it is not racist.
|
| I think what Atwater predicted in this clip somewhat came
| true. Enough time has passed that young people have
| unironically embraced the dog whistles as idealized
| abstractions about small government and economics, states
| rights or federalism, without realizing they used to be dog
| whistles and not genuinely held when popularized.
| thewrongthinker wrote:
| > Statistically, they are less likely to do so.
|
| Holy shit mate, do you hear your self? This is literally
| 13/52 talk.
|
| Black people can get ids, they should get ids, just like
| everyone does in every other civilised country. I
| honestly can't understand how anyone can oppose such a
| simple and natural thing.
| asveikau wrote:
| https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/oppose-voter-id-
| legislation-...
|
| > Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally,
| up to 25% of African- American citizens of voting age
| lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of
| whites.
|
| I did not make up the statistic.
|
| I do not endorse it or wish it to continue, but
| numerically, that is what it is. This is probably the
| largest reason _one side_ of the American political
| spectrum, the one who would benefit from lower racial
| minority turnout, supports tightening the laws.
|
| In tight elections like we routinely have, that
| statistical disparity can be enough to alter electoral
| outcomes.
| digianarchist wrote:
| After moving to the US from Canada it's pretty shocking the
| number of institutions that do not accept either your passport
| or a federally issued ID (TTP) as valid identification.
|
| Everyone wants a state ID such as a driver's license to open
| bank accounts online.
|
| This Real ID deadline has made it a massive pain to get a
| California DL and of course California doesn't allow exchange
| of a Canadian Provincial DL unlike the reverse.
| bombcar wrote:
| Almost everywhere I've been will accept a US passport with
| prodding, but online "instant verification" systems are
| universally shitty.
| digianarchist wrote:
| That's the one ID a Canadian citizen isn't able to get.
| worldsavior wrote:
| ID card is not needed. There is no reason to hold one since
| they already have access to your data, and authenticate by your
| picture and other. Using a card just allows more fraud crimes,
| something that is already very bad in the US.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Great observation. It's why TSA is moving to facial
| biometrics. Less need for ID and suboptimal human evaluation
| of person->ID.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33865633
| worldsavior wrote:
| This is a great security measure. Tho it's pretty privacy
| invasive in some aspects, but otherwise it's good.
| indymike wrote:
| Delegating ID to states (ID & driver's license) and states
| delegating to local jurisdictions (birth certificate) for
| identity actually makes sense. At the Federal level, they
| confirm and issue IDs for employees, people who work at Federal
| locations, and people who want to travel outside the US.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Sorry I like federalism, and oppose a centralized state. the
| Federal government in the US has WAY WAY WAY too much power now
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| I agree it's a silly situation, but there is no problem with
| voter fraud in the US. What happens is a minuscule portion of
| votes.
|
| But if you're unfamiliar, I'll explain that a common
| evangelical christian belief is that a national ID card may be
| somehow related to the "mark of the beast" stuff in
| revelations. And then you also have the far right nationalist
| types that see it as an initial step in taking away their guns
| and freedom.
|
| These fears are of course silly but hold enough political power
| we're stuck in the situation.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > But if you're unfamiliar, I'll explain that a common
| evangelical christian belief is that a national ID card may
| be somehow related to the "mark of the beast" stuff in
| revelations.
|
| This is a parody by non-Christians of what most of them
| actually believe. For most of them the concern is over
| microchips, implants, or something physically on their
| person, not an ID Card, and even there is not uniform concern
| over it. Revelations itself says that it will be on their
| right hand or forehead, which no ID Card is. One could argue
| that it is a foreshadowing of things to come, if not itself
| it.
|
| As for where the concern comes from, it's not the ID itself,
| as much as the implication that in the future, people will be
| required to commit apostasy in order to get an ID, or the
| chip, or whatever have you. Thus, they are opposed, so as to
| prevent such a lockout.
| p_j_w wrote:
| GP didn't say the ID was the mar of the beast, only that it
| was related to it. Having grown up in an evangelical
| household, I very much disagree that what he's said is a
| parody of what evangelicals believe. He is spot on.
| adamrezich wrote:
| you have directly experienced Christians directly
| expressing aversion to non-bodily-invasive state or
| federal ID, specifically on Christian grounds?
| badwolf wrote:
| It really isn't that uncommon of a belief.
| adamrezich wrote:
| really? still, to this day? one would think that
| evangelical Christians would skew conservative, and
| therefore be in _favor_ of state /federal ID, for
| election security purposes.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| These people are extremely conservative - well past
| treating "election security" as a primary concern and far
| closer to "welcoming the return of Jesus / the rapture"
| as their single motivating force. They'll of course
| support most other conservative causes, but only so far
| as they don't conflict with salvation.
| TylerE wrote:
| Yes. The Bible Belt is very very real.
| p_j_w wrote:
| Yes. They (my parents) believed any sort of centralized
| federal ID was a "slippery slope," though they weren't
| educated enough to know and use that exact phrase,
| towards an implanted chip, barcode tattoo, or whatever
| form they were convinced it would take.
| xnyan wrote:
| Yes, frequently. It's not uncommon at all where I was
| raised (US South). We can talk to my father, or almost
| any member of his congregation, about how a national ID
| is a government plot to identify, control and harm the
| faithful.
| spoilqueue wrote:
| I certainly have. Multiple times.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Genuine questions: (1) what about obtaining an ID would
| somehow imply the need to commit apostasy and, as an
| extension (2) what about that would be unique versus, say,
| obtaining car insurance or a bank account?
|
| Even assuming an eschatological evangelical worldview, it
| isn't immediately clear to me what _distinguishes_ IDs from
| any other engagement in society.
| politician wrote:
| Let me try to explain. The government of that time will
| say that you must publicly affirm your association with
| the beast to receive an identifier. The placement of the
| identifier on your hand or forehead will itself be
| positioned as a continual affirmation of your association
| with Team Beast. So, if you are wearing it then you are
| proclaiming your association with the beast. The beast is
| described as hating God and hating Christians and
| persecuting them. If you wear its badge (mark), then you
| would be affirming those actions.
|
| This, obviously, creates a problem for Christians who are
| commanded to love God and to love others.
|
| If it was just an identifier that held no other meaning,
| then it's fine, but it's called the "mark of the beast"
| and it's described as a literal badge of association with
| this creature. It's not just a bank account number.
|
| Hope that helps. If not, just imagine how odious it would
| be, especially to Democrats, if Republicans made it a
| requirement to wear your MAGA hat to buy food.
| yucky wrote:
| _" In order to have a valid citizenship ID you must
| submit to your biannual Multivax Booster+ Gold (or
| Platinum) plan sponsored by Pfizer"_
|
| I'm agnostic and always found these sorts of religious
| doomsday proclamations to be exaggerations, but after
| seeing what the masses have openly embraced over the last
| 2 years I know I was wrong. It hasn't made me religious,
| but I can definitely see their concern for being forced
| into any number of situations in order to fully
| participate in society.
|
| It's not worth it.
| pessimizer wrote:
| What's so bad about _the situation_?
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| There are a large number of people stuck in semi-permanent
| limbo because their disjointed federal IDs don't agree
| about some combination of birthday, spelling of name, etc.
| I have a friend who fills out their taxes with a birthday
| which is not their birthday because they can't get the SSA
| change the date on file(they insist the state must be wrong
| and that the state should change). Getting a passport
| required months of effort and ultimately a lawyer because
| the federal and state documents disagree.
|
| Having one master citizen record would allow us to have one
| place to make changes and one group to appeal to when
| fixing errors.
|
| Also, to be super clear, all Americans already have at
| least one federal ID, it's just a bad one. Let's make it
| less bad.
| dotBen wrote:
| No, UK not only has no ID card but also doesn't have the
| equivalent of an SSN. The National Insurance number serves the
| same primary purpose as SSN, for associating tax payments, but
| it doesn't otherwise serve as a unique identifier for each
| citizen - it's not used on credit card applications for
| example. UK has lower %age of drivers than US due to strong
| public transport, so mandating a drivers license for ID isn't
| feasible.
|
| The UK just bought in new ID rules for voting which bizarrely
| allow for things like a senior citizen rail card to be used.
| (it's being brought in by our conservative government for same
| reason as US - to disenfranchise certain voter blocks - hence
| why a senior citizen rail card is fine but a youth or normal
| adult one is not)
| wdb wrote:
| Voting is pretty bizarre. I voted for some local elections
| and they didn't even check my ID. I had to tell my name they
| checked my name on the list and I could vote. I could then
| come back a few hours later again in name of a flat mate of
| who was on vacation.
| stonemetal12 wrote:
| In the US we say "driver's license" because 90+% of the
| population has one, but the portion of the population who
| doesn't wish to drive can get a State ID card. The only
| difference between an ID card and a driver's license is on
| the back where it lists what types of vehicles you are
| allowed to drive and what types of restrictions have been
| placed on your driving them.
|
| In the UK how do you prevent minors from buying alcohol if
| you don't have some sort of ID with DOB on it?
| was_a_dev wrote:
| If they have no ID, no sale
| was_a_dev wrote:
| > The UK just bought in new ID rules for voting which
| bizarrely allow for things like a senior citizen rail card to
| be used.
|
| Yepp, Oyster 60+ Card is valid for voting, but a Student 18+
| Card isn't
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| Ok but the UK is also an outlier.
| rwbt wrote:
| I'd rather have a federated ID system like what we have
| currently with state drivers licenses/voter id systems. Social
| Security Number/TIN is already used as a unique identifier for
| all financial transactions anyways.
|
| It's messy and complex at times, but in the long run I'd rather
| deal with a bunch of small state level bureaucracies than a
| giant federal behemoth that barely functions (looking at you
| IRS).
| xxpor wrote:
| The single time I've ever had an issue with the IRS - I
| forgot to sign a 1080X - They sent me a letter, I signed it,
| and everything was perfectly fine. They collect a massive
| amount of payments and paperwork every year. I don't know how
| you could say they're barely functioning.
|
| The DMV on the other hand is _the_ joke in American culture
| about incompetent bureaucracies.
| rwbt wrote:
| Count yourself very lucky that you never had an issue with
| the IRS. I had to deal with a mistake that the IRS made
| erroneously and even after 4 years it is still not
| resolved. Every 6 months I get a letter that the IRS still
| hasn't bothered to look into it and I'm guessing they
| likely never will.
|
| DMV is the butt of all the jokes, but atleast you can walk
| into a DMV office and a real person, however annoyed they
| might be will try to help you.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Is the IRS well known as a barely functioning behemoth?
| There's no shortage of animus towards them, but it's
| generally seemed closer to "I don't like the agency that
| takes my money" than "this agency is incompetent."
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| Behemoth ? yes.
|
| Impractical for US citizens ? yes.
|
| Barely functioning ? The IRS will find you halfway across
| the world for an unpaid $20.
| jeltz wrote:
| Isn't a lot of the reason that they are impractical that
| there are powerful organizations lobbying for taxes to be
| painful and complicated to pay. E.g. Turbotax and the
| Americans for Tax Reform
| rwbt wrote:
| They're seriously understaffed. Forget about the partisan
| politics for the reasons behind it but a terrible side
| effect of this lack of resources is that they only go after
| the low hanging fruits to audit. Like Joey Banana who
| forgot to report a few hundred dollars of income will get
| audited but complicated tax evasion schemes go unaudited.
| woodruffw wrote:
| I agree with that, thank you for clarifying!
| anikom15 wrote:
| I'm Californian and I have a much easer time dealing with
| Federal departments than state departments. For one, Federal
| websites actually work properly.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| There is a passport card
|
| But it is pretty useless, I didnt renew mine with the renewal
| of my passport book
|
| Can be used at bars and domestic travel and with employer
| verification, but not international _air_ travel which is the
| main reason i would have it
| jsmith45 wrote:
| Amusingly ICAO (the UN aviation standardizations
| organization) has specified the ID card format for Machine
| Readable (Official) Travel Documents. And the passport card
| conforms to those specifications. But the only use of it that
| they officially encourage countries to accept is the Crew
| Member Certificate.
|
| In all other cases, acceptance would be based on agreements
| between the involved countries. In theory, any country could
| choose to accept any such document without an agreement, but
| they have little reason to do so, and it is not really
| compatible with paper visas. Furthermore, they should refuse
| it if there are unmatched conditions printed on the back of
| the card, like the passport cards have. The result is that
| they are of pretty limited use, and most countries that do
| use them will restrict them to specific scenarios where there
| are agreements in place.
| noncoml wrote:
| UK doesn't have ID either, but I think most European countries
| do
| jeltz wrote:
| The UK used to have an ID but the conservatives scrapped it.
| switch007 wrote:
| There was legislation, some slow movements towards ID, but
| nothing really happened. The general public weren't
| required to carry ID. But yes the conservative and Lib Dem
| coalition repealed it
|
| > Only workers in certain high-security professions, such
| as airport workers, were required to have an identity card
| in 2009,[clarification needed] and this general lack of
| compulsory ID remains the case today.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006
| branon wrote:
| The feds do not need every citizen to hold an ID card, even if
| they might be trying to convince you otherwise.
|
| Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as
| preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by
| another child comment.
|
| The current federated system using state drivers' licenses
| seems fine to me, it's been functional through all of RealID's
| delays.
| wdb wrote:
| I think a ID card is easier than a driver's license. Not
| everyone needs or wants a driver's license. If you don't have
| a driver's license, how can you vote in the US? Do you need a
| passport?
| MatthewMcDonald wrote:
| You can get a non-driver id card from the same department
| that issues driver licenses in your state
| SoftTalker wrote:
| It depends where you are. Some states, like mine, require
| ID to vote. Some don't. Some have strict rules on absentee
| ballots. Others allow "vote by mail" or ballot drop boxes.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| I just filled out a piece of paper to register to vote,
| mailed it in, and then when I showed up at my polling place
| I signed next to my name on the voter roles. Post covid
| they they just mail you a ballot now and you mail it back
| or take it to a drop box. If you want to vote in person you
| take your mail-in ballot and surrender it and they give you
| a regular ballot.
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a
| national ID system, because that's how any functioning
| country works. The US is not special in that regard. In fact,
| most major countries in the world without an ID system are...
| all former colonies of the UK.
|
| But I guess you can keep on being scared of leaking your SSN
| (that everyone unofficially uses as an ID anyways) and keep
| on using different cards depending on the state. There's a
| reason identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty
| much nowhere else in the world.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| > identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much
| nowhere else in the world.
|
| That's decidedly untrue.
|
| https://focusonbusiness.eu/en/news/one-in-five-europeans-
| hav...
| sofixa wrote:
| I don't see their methodology but this sounds absurd.
| Half of UK's citizens have experienced identity fraud?
| Highly suspicious numbers.
| lxgr wrote:
| The consequences of identity theft in many EU countries
| are dramatically less severe than in the US, though.
|
| This is mostly due to not using a short, immutable
| identifier (like the US SSN) effectively as a bearer
| token, as far as I can tell.
|
| Even getting a copy (or even the original!) of somebody's
| passport or driver's license is not enough to open a bank
| account or a credit card in many EU countries; in
| Germany, you need to actually appear in front of a bank
| employee (or subcontractor), personally or in a video
| chat, verify your identity, and confirm your intention to
| open a new account.
| bananapub wrote:
| > Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has
| a national ID system,
|
| is that true?
|
| I know Australia, UK, Ireland, US, don't have a national
| ID, while almost all EU countries do. What does it look
| like elsewhere?
| WirelessGigabit wrote:
| Living in the USA not having to carry an ID all the time is
| a breath of fresh air. Not having to call the cops to tell
| them I moved to that their records are up to date and so
| that they can come to my place of residence to see whether
| I actually live there is a breath of fresh air.
|
| I don't want to government to know that much about me. It
| has been proven over and over that less is better.
| outworlder wrote:
| > Not having to call the cops to tell them I moved to
| that their records are up to date and so that they can
| come to my place of residence to see whether I actually
| live there is a breath of fresh air.
|
| Eh. In most states you are required to get a new DL if
| you move. So, in fact, you _have to_ tell the state where
| you live.
|
| Whereas with a national ID, that wouldn't be tied to a
| place of residence.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Whereas with a national ID, that wouldn't be tied to a
| place of residence.
|
| Why would you assume that? our current substitute for a
| national ID (state issued ID compliant with the federal
| REAL ID Act) requires current address, and has higher
| standards for proof of address than many pre-REAL ID
| state IDs did.
| everforward wrote:
| Can't reply to toomuchtodo so dropping this here; your
| passport is tied to your address via your SSN which is
| tied to tax returns. They frankly probably know where you
| live better than the state you reside in. I know lots of
| people that haven't updated the address on their driver's
| license, but I don't know anyone that gives the IRS an
| incorrect address.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| Not everyone files a tax return.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| My passport and global entry card do not require a
| physical address. Just give me a US version of Estonia's
| identity smart card and make it work with Login.gov.
| throwaway742 wrote:
| If you just get a state ID card and not a DL there is no
| requirement to update your address.
| sagarm wrote:
| Having a national ID and carrying it are two separate
| things. Many Americans already have a national ID
| (passport) and do not carry it.
|
| Conversely, the most common state ID (driver's license)
| is effectively mandatory to carry at all times for most
| Americans because it is required to drive a motor vehicle
| and driving a motor vehicle is required to move around
| outside of major urban areas.
| tzs wrote:
| > Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as
| preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by
| another child comment.
|
| It's not needed to prevent voter fraud in the US because
| there is very little voter fraud to prevent. What it could
| help with is reducing voter suppression.
|
| Several states, claiming that it is necessary to prevent
| fraud (which they cannot actually find any significant
| examples of) have instituted voter ID requirements.
|
| In many of these there has been a pretty good correlation
| between what ID they accept and whether or not the people who
| tend to vote for the party enacting the ID require are more
| likely to already have that form of ID than the people who
| tend to vote for the other party.
|
| These are often accompanied by changes to how IDs are issued
| that make it significantly harder for many people who vote
| for the other party to obtain ID. For example, state IDs are
| often issued by the same department that issues driver's
| licenses. Some states, citing budget issues, have closed such
| offices, with the closures hitting hardest is largely
| minority areas, and reduced hours in the offices remaining
| open eliminating weekend and evening hours.
|
| This makes it so that for many people in those areas that
| lost their offices getting an ID means losing a day of work
| or more, which many of them cannot afford and so have to give
| up voting.
|
| A Federal ID that is easy to obtain for all citizens, very
| cheap or free, and that states are required to accept as
| voter ID could go a long way to helping eligible voters
| actually be able to vote.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| > easy to obtain for all citizens, very cheap or free
|
| This is the key point, though, and harder than it sounds.
| It needs to be (at least approximately) free-as-in-beer
| with a small time investment, while still gathering
| adequate evidence of identity. My best idea is to build it
| as an outgrowth of the passport infrastructure without the
| relatively onerous forms and other costs. Doing it through
| the post office like passports is as good an idea as any,
| but you need to make sure they all have (working![0])
| cameras and trained personnel. Not cheap.
|
| I'm all for the idea, I just don't want people to
| underestimate the difficulty, because that will make it
| more likely to fail.
|
| [0] When I went to get my passport, the camera at the post
| office was broken. I had to run across the street to the
| drug store. Not fatal, but a pain, and not something you
| could tolerate at scale for voter id.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| If you are an American, you already have a federally issued
| ID it just isn't very good. If you are an American who has
| traveled internationally you have at least two distinct
| federally issued IDs, which can get out of sync and cause a
| huge headache. At least 3 if you ever interacted with the
| IRS, 4 if you have a KTN, 5 if you have a TSA redress
| number...
|
| There are plenty of places where just a drivers license isn't
| acceptable (getting a passport for instance) and requires you
| to play the stupid 1/2 from category A/B game.
|
| I agree that bringing up voting is a red herring, that's a
| state thing and the several states should solve that for
| themselves. The US federal government needs a unified ID
| system which was designed as a robust, centralized ID system
| that can then be mandated for federal agencies to use.
| bmitc wrote:
| > If you are an American who has traveled internationally
| you have at least two distinct federally issued IDs, which
| can get out of sync and cause a huge headache.
|
| What IDs are you referring to and what's the headache?
| Presumably one ID is a passport. From your first sentence,
| I would assume the second ID is a social security number,
| but how does it become "out of sync" with a passport?
| iudqnolq wrote:
| They could mean name changes
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| I know people who have spent literally years trying to
| correct misspellings and incorrect DOB issues with State
| and SSA.
|
| Get a passport as a minor, change your name as an adult,
| realize SSA has your wrong bday, descend into bureaucracy
| hell as now both name and DOB don't match.
| bmitc wrote:
| As far as I can tell, birth certificates are issued by
| states and name changes are done through states, so it
| isn't clear to me how a name is a federally issued ID or
| even an ID.
|
| While I am sure the bureaucracy surrounding such
| discrepancies is enormous, I'm not for sure I understand
| how it relates to a discussion about national IDs. A
| passport is effectively an optional national ID, so none
| of these issues would be solved by a national ID.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Huh? A name is something which is on a federal ID,
| obviously it is not in and of itself a federal ID.
|
| The Social Security Administration (SSA) issues IDs at
| the federal level, which are applied for using state or
| county issued birth certificates (as well as other ways).
| They sometimes make clerical errors. Those errors can
| propagate into other federal identity databases, such as
| the taxpayer record system operated by the Internal
| Revenue Service or the passport database operated by the
| Department of State.
|
| The linkages between these systems are fragile or
| nonexistent, and if you are not careful about manually
| propagating changes between them you can end up in an
| inconsistent state which requires court action to
| rectify.
|
| Passports are often used in lieu of social security cards
| because people are (correctly!) leery about using their
| SSN directly. I know people who have no intention of
| traveling internationally who have gotten passports
| because it's extremely convenient to have a federally
| issued _photo_ id.
| proser wrote:
| It's worse than that. Birth certificates are issued at
| the country level.
| bmitc wrote:
| I think you have a typo and mean county?
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Except where they aren't.
| halpmeh wrote:
| If you change your name, which is somewhat common for
| women to do after marriage.
| bmitc wrote:
| A name is not a government ID. And aside from mistakes,
| what is the issue? If you change your name, get a new
| passport.
| halpmeh wrote:
| If you change your name, you need to update your
| information with social security and with the state
| department. That's how the two IDs can get out of sync.
| E.g. if someone was like "please bring your social
| security card and passport for verification" you could
| potentially have a name mis-match if you only updated
| your passport but didn't update your social security.
| ghaff wrote:
| I haven't had an actual social security card for many
| decades since having a wallet stolen. And never needed
| it.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| The fact that you do not physically possess your social
| security card does not mean that the federal government
| did not issue you one. So you Have it, you simply don't
| have it on you.
|
| You haven't needed it since it's such a bad ID that if
| you know the number you often don't need to possess the
| paper.
| ghaff wrote:
| I've never been asked to present the paper over multiple
| decades and have never bothered to try to get a
| replacement.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| This is like saying I drive without taking my drivers
| license with me.
| bmitc wrote:
| What scenario do you need to present both a passport and
| social security card? Those "three column" identification
| documents that I have seen always accept passports
| standalone.
| ghaff wrote:
| For renewing a driver's license to a RealID-compliant
| driver's license I did need more than a passport. But I
| think that was more of a state thing that required a
| utility bill to my address and maybe something else.
| bmitc wrote:
| Ah, the ol' utility bill stuff. Lol. Such a pain at
| times, but I guess I understand for some things where
| people definitely try to skirt the system where they
| don't live where they say.
|
| I have neglected to get my state's real ID since it
| requires me to go into a location, which are soul
| sucking. Luckily, my global entry card is a Real ID. It
| only took two years to get that one. And when I had to go
| in for that ID, they didn't even check my driver's
| license or passport for ID. They just took my picture and
| that was it. Pretty poor due diligence.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Wait until you find out about the photo matching they do
| to true up license and Global Entry identity. Why have a
| human (who can be social engineered) do that in person
| when an algorithm can do it behind the scenes?
| bmitc wrote:
| Well, I'm not disappointed that they actually did
| something. If it wasn't clear, I thought not checking was
| poor procedure, and I guess it makes sense it they have
| automated procedures. Still doesn't seem right to not
| have a human validate when it takes no extra time to do
| so.
| ghaff wrote:
| I actually usually use my Global Entry for TSA now. I
| lost my driver's license once at the airport and my
| Global Entry card is the federally-accepted ID I don't
| otherwise actually need.
|
| Funnily enough I was able to fly without an ID when I
| lost my license--which was surprisingly hassle-free. But
| I had a hell of a time checking into my hotel.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| The thing that will need to match is the name/DoB on your
| passport and your file with SSA. You will need them to
| match when you have to get the window attendant at SSA to
| help you figure out why your monthly social security
| check is wrong. Good luck proving you're you when the
| records are 40 years old and 6 states away.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _If you are an American, you already have a federally
| issued ID it just isn't very good._
|
| What ID is that? If you're talking about a Social Security
| Card, that's not ID at all. I don't think I would call it
| "ID but not very good", even.
|
| Ultimately there are a lot of people who go through life in
| the US who never have a federally-issued ID at all. Simply
| never traveling outside the US will do it for most people.
| And there are more people than you'd expect in the US who
| never leave the country.
|
| Also agree re: voting: elections are administered by
| states, so a federal ID is just not even necessary here.
| States are perfectly capable of issuing ID, as we all know.
| (Granted, drivers licenses and non-driving state IDs
| usually don't have anything to say about citizenship
| status. A state-issued ID serves as authentication, not
| authorization, where voting is concerned.)
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| In what way is your social security card not an ID? It is
| used as a credential to identify yourself, and is one of
| very few such identifiers that most organizations take
| (i.e. I can use it to get many other IDs). Many state
| DMVs list it on a page called "identity documents". All
| Americans have been issued their card at least once, and
| more to the point not having the card doesn't mean you
| don't have the ID as many people will take the number.
| It's a very weak ID for a lot of reasons, but that fact
| alone doesn't make it not one. It just makes it a
| dangerous one.
|
| Why are you against having a good one?
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Functionally, a social security number is closer to an
| alternate name than an ID. It doesn't contain evidence
| that can feasibly be used to prove that the person
| showing it to you is who they claim to be, the way the
| picture/physical descriptors on a photo ID card do. And
| it's not even an unpredictable name, so you can't even
| treat it the way you would a long unpredictable token in
| a security context.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| > social security number is closer to an alternate name
|
| `s/is/should be/`
|
| If I have your social security card I can pretend to be
| you quite effectively as many people will accept it as an
| ID. They don't care that you don't think it is one. The
| ones that don't will frequently take an alternative
| (read: derived) that I can get with just it.
|
| > It doesn't contain evidence that can feasibly be used
| to prove...
|
| Yes. We agree, it's a bad ID.
| notch656a wrote:
| Voting ID rules isn't just a state thing. On June 17, 2013,
| the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that states
| cannot require proof of citizenship in cases of voter
| registration for federal elections unless the state
| receives federal or court approval to do so. That is the
| feds have said the states can't just solve that for
| themselves.
|
| The state I live in (Arizona) requires proof your presence
| is authorized to get state ID. If you are a citizen, that
| means proof of citizenship. But then loop back to supreme
| court decision above.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Edit: firstly, this is a distraction (i.e. a red herring)
| from the debate about national IDs. We have a national ID
| issue which needs to be fixed.
|
| That ruling doubles down on it being a state thing by
| saying leave citizenship (which is a federal thing) out
| of it. If a state creates for itself a catch-22, that is
| the states fault and is therefore the states
| responsibility to fix.
|
| Arizona needs to stop shirking it's responsibility to its
| residents and come up with a solution to this problem,
| just like virtually every other state has.
| marssaxman wrote:
| > We have a national ID issue which needs to be fixed.
|
| What is that issue? It is not apparent to me that REAL ID
| solves a real problem.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Who said anything about REALID solving the national ID
| problem? We need to replace SSNs with a modern identity
| system.
| [deleted]
| kelnos wrote:
| What's the solution, though? I live in California, and my
| state-issued ID doesn't say anything about my US
| citizenship. When I registered to vote (online), I had to
| certify that I was eligible to vote. Yes, the penalties
| for lying are steep, but if the state can't verify if I'm
| lying or not, how will I get caught?
|
| If SCOTUS says states can't require proof of citizenship
| for voter registration, how can they exclude non-citizens
| from voter rolls? The state hasn't created a catch-22;
| the federal judiciary has told the states that they
| effectively can't use citizenship as a requirement for
| voting.
|
| I feel like I'm missing something here, because this
| can't be the state of things.
|
| > _We have a national ID issue which needs to be fixed._
|
| What issue is this? Why do we need a national ID? What
| purpose would one serve? Plenty of Americans go through
| their lives just fine without any sort of federally-
| issued ID. Pretty much all you have to do is never travel
| outside the US, and many Americans don't.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| > What purpose would one serve?
|
| Aside from the hundreds of other cost-and-convenience
| reasons, eliminating the SSN (and associated fraud) would
| be easily worth it on its own.
|
| Even if it were true that plenty of people get through
| life without a federal ID, that doesn't mean all do. As I
| have said other places in this thread, the rickety
| machinery of federal identity replication grinds up
| plenty of people.
| attah_ wrote:
| Meanwhile in other countries... Secure, easy-to-obtain, IDs since
| several decades. Also, an ID is required to vote and since it is
| secure you don't need any silly voter registration (which is just
| suppression in the guise of verification).
| themagician wrote:
| The current system (without Real ID) isn't really any less
| "secure". All Real ID does is force you to show a citizenship
| document to travel. It's designed to put pressure on illegal
| immigrants to self deport and punish States like California for
| who issue driver's licenses to non-citizens.
|
| There is no automatic reason that Real ID would even be
| required to vote, since voting is left up to the states anyway.
| If the state says you can use a business card to vote then you
| can.
| runako wrote:
| Real ID was a result of a political climate that envisioned
| terror attacks as a salient political issue, and that non-US
| citizens were believed to be the primary terror threat.
|
| It's probably safe to say that we live in a vastly different
| political climate today.
| n0us wrote:
| I already had a Real ID but when I moved to New York and went to
| get my license switched they would not give me another one
| despite having proof of address, my SSN, my valid passport, and
| my existing valid Real ID. I have to go back with all of that and
| pay another $60 or something along with my birth certificate to
| get a Real ID from the state. Unbelievable hassle to get that
| thing.
| ars wrote:
| I got to real ID like 2 years ago, and I had to argue with the
| DMV guy. He discouraged me from getting it, saying it was
| unnecessary and I should use a passport instead.
|
| I actually had to argue with him and give him reasons why I
| wanted it before he would allow me to get it.
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| I had the same experience in spring 2021. Totally obnoxious
| customer service.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| At a certain point, one has to suspect that it just ain't gonna
| happen.
| toast0 wrote:
| I certainly suspected it. I've declined to get a real ID
| everytime, because it seems like it won't actually be required,
| and if it is, I have a passport I could carry, and get a real
| ID for convenience at the next license renewal.
|
| In other words, why pay for it now, if it keeps getting pushed
| back, and likely will continue to get pushed back.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Does it cost more for you? My state doesn't charge any more
| for them you just have to bring the extra documentation which
| in your case (in my state though I think the requirements are
| the same everywhere) would be your passport you already have.
| muchosandwich wrote:
| It cost slightly more for me in CA. And even then I got
| caught up in the whole DMV documentation snafu even though
| I brought a dozen identifying documents, so I had to get my
| REAL ID 3 times over, each at my own expense.
| happyopossum wrote:
| No - the costs are the same for any ID card, the only
| difference is if you jump through the extra hoops to have
| them issue a Real ID:
|
| https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-licenses-
| identification...
| jaywalk wrote:
| My state is the same as long as you're doing it with a
| regular renewal. I did it last time I renewed my license,
| because I already had a passport. Even though it certainly
| seems that it'll never be enforced.
| matwood wrote:
| Yeah, any new license or renewal in my state is a real id.
| I think it costs the same, but I wasn't sure since it was
| 10 years since the last time I renewed.
|
| Other than the hassle, is there a reason to not get the new
| id when license renewals come up?
| canttestthis wrote:
| WA charges extra, also people on non-immigrant visas cannot
| get them.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Well in WA, we already switched to RealID-compliant
| driver's license numbers, even for standard licenses.
| Next time your license is renewed, take a look at your
| license. I didn't even notice this for months after I got
| my new one. I was filling out a form and I put down the
| old one since I had it memorized. You still can't use it
| to cross borders though.
|
| I'm sure this means we will have RealID-compliant cards
| as the norm here soon.
| happyopossum wrote:
| > also people on non-immigrant visas cannot get them
|
| Which kinda makes sense as this is intended to be a
| pseudo-federal ID, right?
| belltaco wrote:
| Not true, many states give Real IDs to non-immgrants.
| jcalvinowens wrote:
| In my state (CA) I would have to actually show up to the
| DMV in person (normally you can renew online). That's
| inconvenient enough I'm never going to do it, if they start
| requiring "real ID" I'll just use my passport.
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| If you have to carry your passport around for things
| other than foreign travel there's a greater risk of
| losing it.
| ghaff wrote:
| If I'm traveling by air, I usually carry my passport as
| backup ID--especially after somehow losing my license
| once between the car and the counter at the airport. My
| Global Entry card is probably sufficient backup to be
| honest but I also have backup credit cards etc. anyway.
| jcalvinowens wrote:
| I always travel with it, personally. It's useful in other
| ways too, for example people in rural parts of the US can
| be weird about out-of-state IDs (I look young...).
| toast0 wrote:
| I live in WA, so it (currently) costs $7/year extra for an
| enhanced drivers license. I'll just have an unreal ID,
| until the mandate is real for me.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| There is an additional benefit with the EDL, which is
| that you can go up to Canada and back with just the EDL,
| since it also is proof of citizenship. Whether that is
| worth an additional $7/year is debatable, but it's
| similar to the price of a Passport Card, which is
| equivalent.
| toast0 wrote:
| Could be useful, if I did that often (or at all, but it
| is on my list)
| Msw242 wrote:
| I can't renew my driver's license online anymore until I prove my
| citizenship.
|
| Alright, fine, I have my birth certificate, and I took it to the
| DPS.
|
| Well I can't just walk in... I have to make an appointment
| online. Alright, fine...
|
| But appointments are booked solid for 2 months.
|
| So I guess I'm driving with an expired license until then.
| Minor49er wrote:
| I brought in multiple documents to prove my identity because I
| heard a lot of stories of people getting turned down for not
| having any documents. I also saw it first-hand while waiting at
| the DMV to renew. I finally get to the front counter. The lady
| working there eyed my folder of docs, then snarkily said "you
| know, less is more". I hate the DMV.
| monksy wrote:
| Tried to get it when changing my address after moving in IL.
|
| Documents weren't perfect. Also you have to let the address
| settle after moving and getting a new id. (I.e. utility bills
| that aren't printed out with your address on them)
|
| Short end of the story, I could have done an address change
| online quicker. Also, use my GE card as my fed id now. (Real
| Id)
| throwaway742 wrote:
| If I were you I would print out a copy of my appointment and
| keep it with my registration.
| battery_glasses wrote:
| Why not just grand-father in all current state driver's licenses
| and let the migration happen naturally as people renew?
| suprfsat wrote:
| If your grandfather had the right to vote without complicated
| ID requirements, then you do too.
| bmlzootown wrote:
| Literally stood outside the DMV the other day for more than hour
| in sub-40F weather to get my real id.
| satya71 wrote:
| I feel vindicated in skipping the extra evidence for getting a
| RealID. The new enforcement date is past my renewal date, and I
| plan to get a non-RealID next time too.
| riffic wrote:
| just ax the stupid mandate.
| a2tech wrote:
| Maybe we can just extend it forever and drop it. And dissolve DHS
| at the same time as well.
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