[HN Gopher] Apple to move 40-45% iPhone production to India
___________________________________________________________________
Apple to move 40-45% iPhone production to India
Author : akmittal
Score : 569 points
Date : 2022-12-04 07:22 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| Qtips87 wrote:
| If Apple want to exit China for geopolitical reason it should
| move to Vietnam. Western manufacturers have set up shops in India
| before and there were few successful stories and many have exit
| eventually. Ford for example exit India after not turning a
| profit for decades. When people point out India's problem it is
| the usual suspect like government red tapes, poor infrastructure,
| unreliable electric grid...etc. Some even blame India's problem
| on democracy, which is absurd. Germany is a democracy and is a
| manufacturing powerhouse. But the fundamental problem underlying
| all these is the average IQ of a nation. India's population
| average IQ is 82 and this is the fundamental reason why the
| workers productivity is so low. This is the elephant in the room
| that every manufacturer who want to set up shop in a foreign
| country should consider.
| dartharva wrote:
| When, how and who measured the IQ of India's population? Where
| did you get this number from?
| Qtips87 wrote:
| You can look it up yourself. I don't believe it either at one
| point and I did some digging and all the evidence points to a
| low IQ Indian population. There is of course very smart
| Indians but the distribution of the population as a whole is
| center around 82.
| Markoff wrote:
| So exist communist China for communist Vietnam, right, that's
| really an improvement.
|
| Only reason companies are moving from China is because of too
| high cost already while Vietnam, Indonesia or India are way
| poorer. Plus if you would read the article you would notice
| Vietnam is just too small with not enough labor to replace
| China.
| slaw wrote:
| Vietnam with 98 million population is too small? Vietnam is
| completely different than Indonesia and India. It is like
| smaller China before Xi took power.
| Markoff wrote:
| Read the article before commenting.
| slaw wrote:
| > The country has just under 100 million people, less
| than a 10th of China's population. It can handle
| 60,000-person manufacturing sites but not places such as
| Zhengzhou that reach into the hundreds of thousands, he
| said.
|
| I disagree that country of 100 million people is not big
| enough for 300 thousand workers factory.
| verdenti wrote:
| throwaway123y wrote:
| All Japanese car makers produce and sell/export cars successful
| for decades. As an American you don't care about facts right?
| How dumb are you, dude?
| questime wrote:
| I could argue European's have very low IQs relative to access
| to resources/wealth - it would be equally stupid and racist but
| I would have better evidence than you to back it up just by
| looking at how much they get outcompeted by their Indian origin
| fellow citizens.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| Stop using racism as an excuse when caste culture runs deep
| in your country.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| European outcompeted by their Indian origin fellow citizens?
| If you people are so great how come India is a shithole?
| k0dede wrote:
| Apple will make iphones in india with great working condition,
| reasonable zero-covid policy and great compensation. All the
| problem will be shifted away by moving the factory to India.
| (Smile)
| Qtips87 wrote:
| In your dreams. Bharat is a shithole.
| papito wrote:
| What was unthinkable in 2020 is now thinkable in 2022. Can Russia
| just start a major land war in Europe, wiping out whole cities?
| Sounds crazy. Nnnope.
|
| "Chinese President Xi Jinping has ordered the country's military
| to develop the ability to take control of Taiwan by 2027,
| according to CIA official David Cohen."
|
| https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/09/21/china-seize-taiwan...
|
| Tim Cook is not an idiot. He knows that this would be a major
| event that would put his entire company in existential danger,
| and once the odds are above 1%, you are playing for keeps.
|
| Remarkably, this is just _one_ of the factors. Xi 's behavior in
| general has become increasingly unpredictable, but also Apple is
| not immune to the "Hollywood strategy" - China learns what it
| needs to learn, borrows all the advanced technology, and tells
| the other side to please abscond when the time is right.
|
| This has already happened for the US movie industry. Disney,
| after humiliating itself in front of the CCP for over a decade in
| order to make a buck, is now not welcome. China makes its own
| movies thank you very much.
|
| The time for phones and Teslas is coming. Tim Cook knows this.
| Elon Musk - not so much. That guy is oblivious, busy being a one-
| man moderator switchboard on Twitter and chasing down Hunter
| Biden conspiracies, or something.
| slaw wrote:
| China started going downhill few years after Xi took power.
| Musk knew it and invested in China anyway. If he was 10% as
| smart as media portrayed him until recently, he would build
| factory in Vietnam, Thailand or Mexico.
| kshacker wrote:
| I do not see a problem in building in China if you are going
| to sell in China. Just build enough to take care of China
| demand, give or take a few percent, so even if China goes to
| war, or kicks you out, or whatever ... the rest of the world
| does not suffer. That way China also knows they have only so
| little control on you.
| bamboozled wrote:
| What about moving it too...a country where workers are paid
| properly and environmental standards are highest?
|
| Ha.
| akmittal wrote:
| That means expensive product or lesser profit margin. I dont
| think Apple wnt either
| Qtips87 wrote:
| glintik wrote:
| I'd like to see again "Made in USA" phone and ready to pay 10%
| more.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| That's the problem. It would be way more and people looking to
| get a bargain would haggle over that 10% (plus something)
| anyway.
|
| Also, Apple gets a lot of its revenue outside the US. China is
| actually a really big market for them. It about rivals Europe.
| North + South America is about 40% of the revenue for Apple. A
| lot of that would be from the US; but not all of it. Let's call
| it 30%. Made in the US just doesn't have a whole lot of appeal
| outside of the US and Apple has the rest of the world to worry
| about as well.
| c54 wrote:
| Problem is it wouldn't be 10% more, it'd be 100% more
| Mindless2112 wrote:
| There is one, but you're going to pay more than 10% more.
|
| https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Paywall: <https://archive.ph/Si9Oc>
| akmittal wrote:
| > Apple's longer-term goal is to ship 40% to 45% of iPhones from
| India, compared with a single-digit percentage currently,
| according to Ming-chi Kuo, an analyst at TF International
| Securities who follows the supply chain. Suppliers say Vietnam is
| expected to shoulder more of the manufacturing for other Apple
| products such as AirPods, smartwatches and laptops.
| Reubend wrote:
| I'm surprised it's so low. I know that they already have very
| established processes in China, and their contractors have
| probably invested a lot in tooling for those factories, but it
| seems interesting that they would still prefer to move less
| that 50% of their capacity there.
|
| Maybe they see India as carrying its own risks?
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| India, being a democracy, means that governments have to give
| in to demands of voter groups. The two largest voter groups
| are farmers and low wage labor. This has ensured that
| acquiring land for large scale projects or changing labor
| laws carries massive political risk.
|
| Changes to India's farm laws now seem next to impossible. I
| doubt India will have a more popular government than it has
| today. Yet, it had to cave in and withdraw a farm law reform
| bill.
|
| If even this government couldn't pull it off, there's little
| chance future governments will do any better.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| >India, being a democracy, means that governments have to
| give in to demands of voter groups
|
| Love how everyone is throwing around the word "democracy"
| in this thread like saying it makes hot true and that it
| has some specific meaning.
|
| The only reason Apple is moving there is because it is NOT
| a democracy.
|
| 'Electoral autocracy': The downgrading of India's democracy
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| Propaganda. The government of my state is led by a party
| that came into existence less than a decade ago. Every
| election has literally hundreds of candidates from
| hundreds of parties competing. I can and have criticized
| the government on online and offline mediums
|
| Sure, there is pushback from government supporters, but
| that doesn't mean there is no democracy. As it is
| practiced, democracy is thriving in India.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Do you live in Assam, Manipur or Kashmir? Are you
| Adivasi?
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| > This has ensured that acquiring land for large scale
| projects ... a political risk
|
| You're confusing land acquisition issues for road/rail
| projects where a very specific parcel of land is required
| with land acquisition for factories.
|
| Indian States are some of the largest land owners and there
| are so many notified SEZs in several Indian states.
| kumarvvr wrote:
| This is a tried and beaten down nonsense.
|
| How much land do you think Apple needs to move its entire
| supply chain to India?
|
| A few thousand acres?
|
| Yeah, you can find non-agricultural land of that size all
| over India. 40% of India is non agricultural land.
|
| Land acquisition related issues for establishing industries
| is a popular tool by politicians playing their politics. It
| has no bearing on reality or actual troubles faced by
| farmers.
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| > they would still prefer to move less that 50% of their
| capacity there
|
| It is not Apple saying this. So, this is some Analyst doing a
| linear regression. So we can't read too much into this. It
| could be possible that India starts manufacturing 80% of
| iPhones. Or It could be less than the claimed 45% too.
|
| Also, if there's no reason for Foxconn to dismantle existing
| manufacturing facilities all at once.
| threatofrain wrote:
| > So, this is some Analyst doing a linear regression.
|
| I'd note that Ming-chi Kuo is a very well known analyst.
| twoodfin wrote:
| He's also known for providing, as the Apple rumor mill
| goes, extremely accurate information on their supply
| chain, particularly for iPhones.
| seunosewa wrote:
| India has serious regulatory issues. Their govt is very
| interventionist too. Production cost is probably higher than
| China.
| LightG wrote:
| I have serious reservations about India also ... but even
| if what you say is true (about production cost), isn't it
| very telling that companies are willing to move to higher
| production cost enviroments?
|
| It's the price of relative independence and potentially
| less human rights issues.
|
| It's simple isn't it: want less of a sh!t world, pay a
| price which doesn't exclude these externalities.
| akmittal wrote:
| > India and Vietnam have their own challenges.
|
| > Vietnam's manufacturing was growing quickly but was short
| of workers. The country has just under 100 million people,
| less than a 10th of China's population.
|
| > India has a population nearly the size of China's but not
| the same level of governmental coordination. Apple has found
| it hard to navigate India because each state is run
| differently and regional governments saddle the company with
| obligations before letting it build products there.
| brnt wrote:
| As of next year, India will be the most populous country in
| the world.
| peanuty1 wrote:
| India probably has been for some time now that we know
| China has been overestimating its population.
| deltree7 wrote:
| India has 5% manufacturing capabilities of China and will
| be at least 2x expensive and slow. India also has strong
| labor laws and local politicians still need votes
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| Sorry, but how is this capability measured?
|
| And why is it being assumed here that labor laws need to
| be suppressed to make iphone production viable?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I feel like a rough measure would be to see the
| proportion of anything that is not clothing that has
| "Made in India" written on it in one's home, compared to
| "Made in China".
| akmittal wrote:
| > 2x expensive
|
| That's not even close. Samsung,MI,Oppo and Vivo make
| almost all phones for India in India. If it was this
| expensive they will never make India
| deltree7 wrote:
| Yeah, compare Apple's margins vs all of the margins that
| you mentioned
| NavinF wrote:
| India has a lot of bureaucracy and protectionism. I also
| don't think they have any equivalent to China's special
| economic zones (free market economies where the usual rules
| don't apply) such as Shenzhen (Chinese Silicon Valley)
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| India has had SEZs for decades at this point.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_special_economic_zone
| s...
| harryVic wrote:
| India has special economic zones https://en.wikipedia.org/w
| iki/List_of_special_economic_zones...
| NavinF wrote:
| Huh I thought I looked this up earlier, but I guess I was
| mistaken. Are these zones similar to China's? I see lots
| of tiny zones on that list that are focused on
| manufacturing just one product rather than huge cities
| that make everything.
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| India is quite liberal even outside of SEZ compared to
| China.
|
| These SEZs have considerably less bureaucracy. They have
| power/water connections handled already and a single-
| window system for approvals.
|
| China also has plenty of SEZs
| unmole wrote:
| > Are these zones similar to China's?
|
| They are not even remotely comparable to China's. There
| are some SEZ's that made up of just a couple of
| buildings. And they aren't limited to manufacturing, it's
| common for multinational companies to run their R&D out
| of them.
|
| Source: Worked in a Bangalore SEZ for a large Chinese
| telecom company.
| beautifulfreak wrote:
| Asymco once mentioned that Apple designs and builds all the
| tooling.
| dartharva wrote:
| India might have been on a steady path of liberalization
| since the 90s, but it is still fundamentally a big-government
| country. There is a ridiculous amount of red tape every
| business has to go through to operate from and in India, and
| when it comes to tech regulation it tends to be just as
| trigger-happy to impose abrupt disruptive orders on
| businesses as the EU, if not more. India gets all this
| investment because it gets fancied as the next best
| alternative to China (in cheap labor), not because it is
| convenient or conducive to foreign players. India's ease of
| doing business is rather horrible in today's standards.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Going all-in on _any_ individual location has risks. At Apple
| 's scale, even 25% in four countries means enormous
| efficiencies of scale in each, but if one country has a coup
| or goes to war with the US, it's not as disastrous.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Why put all your eggs in one basket? If they can afford to
| diversify their risk to local markets by having multiple
| sources they can play sourcing regions off each other. By
| being so dependent on China apple exposes itself to
| extortion. That works everywhere, China isn't uniquely
| malevolent despite views to the contrary. Given the
| opportunity to expropriate a foreigner almost any country
| will leverage that opportunity.
| akmarinov wrote:
| Wait, didn't they say they'll need 8 years to move out 10%?
| akmittal wrote:
| I don't think so. Last year Indias share was 2-3% and in 2022
| it is expected to be 5%. With new plants coming up and existing
| plants ramping up, i thing 10% can be reached within next year
| MangoCoffee wrote:
| Apple invested too much in China. I doubt they can wean off the
| Chinese market and labors/suppliers. the news about Apple
| throttled AirDrop during Chinese protests is a tell.
| est wrote:
| Foxconn invested too much in China, Apple invested too much in
| Foxconn.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| India has had its share of strikes and protests over working
| conditions at Apple's Taiwanese suppliers:
|
| https://www.reuters.com/world/india/food-poisoning-foxconns-...
|
| Dozens released after protest at India plant of Apple supplier
| Foxconn
|
| Police in India have released dozens of those detained for
| blocking a key highway in a protest against food poisoning at a
| Foxconn (2317.TW) unit, the country's second instance of unrest
| at an Apple Inc (AAPL.O) supplier factory in a year.
|
| ...
|
| In December last year, thousands of contract workers at a factory
| owned by Apple supplier Wistron Corp (3231.TW) destroyed
| equipment and vehicles over the alleged non-payment of wages,
| causing damages estimated at $60 million.
| fyresala wrote:
| Apple will have a hard time giving up their favorite slave
| labor
| arcticbull wrote:
| Maybe them being smooshed between China concerns on one side
| and labor activism on the other will help improve working
| conditions.
| mayama wrote:
| India has tricky labour laws, bureaucracy, land issues and
| labour unions to deal with when manufacturing at scale. But, it
| isn't unsolvable problem. Samsung, Xiaomi, Hyundai etc.
| manufacture millions of phones, tvs, cars etc. in India and are
| quite successful being #1 or #2. That Wistron issue seems more
| like coordination issue between different contractors when
| starting up new plant and there was no repeat of that issue.
| reactspa wrote:
| This alone is going to be a huge driver of India's economy going
| forward.
|
| Interesting how globalism works.
| akmittal wrote:
| This thought would have decent impect but can't be big factor
| for India.
|
| China become big economy because they are making everything
| LEDs, toys, semiconductor, cloths
| rrgok wrote:
| Someone said something along the line of "This alone is going to
| be a huge driver of India's economy going forward...". I honestly
| feel the opposite. This will make the country more poorer. Hey, I
| don't know anything about economics. But if mass production (in
| tech) happens always in those countries and the economy moves
| forward, then why, on average, those people's lifestyle is not
| comparable to the poorest man in the west?
| sornaensis wrote:
| China has raised a billion people into a comfortable standard
| of living by doing exactly this.
|
| Taiwan, South Korea, and Vietnam all have developed at
| substantial rates via this method as well.
|
| Maybe you're thinking of countries which are based around
| resource extraction? Because building a ton of factories and
| putting people to work making gadgets for other countries is
| pretty well proven.
| tw1984 wrote:
| Zero-covid or not, this is inevitable.
|
| iphones were used to be built in Shenzhen, it is now no longer
| economically viable to do so anymore as labor costs in Shenzhen
| is much higher, so they moved the factory to Zhenzhou. to chase
| more profit, they will always consider cheaper alternatives.
|
| It is actually good for the Chinese economy as such cheap labor
| jobs are not going to sustain further growth required to compete
| on a more skilled level globally.
| silisili wrote:
| It's good for China because they're just going to keep making
| them anyways and flood the market with their version.
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| Their version is Huawei.
|
| Huawei phones are not allowed to be sold in _most of the
| world_
| guessbest wrote:
| Looks like the Chinese android phone that has the most
| traction are BBK models, not Huawei.
|
| > But we must keep in mind BBK has multiple players in the
| game. Two of their brands make it to the top list in market
| share data. Oppo and Vivo each hold 10%, equating to a
| total of 20%.
|
| https://www.androidauthority.com/bbk-phone-
| manufacturer-8088...
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| Huawei designs its own ARM based chips and modems that
| BBK and Xiaomi do not.
|
| Unrelated: India and SEA are where a good majority of
| these BBK phones are sold. And BBK tapped into the PPI
| scheme of India to start manufacturing in India > 3 years
| ago. Most phones sold in India are made in India.
| fyresala wrote:
| iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang.
|
| Earlier the reports are workers in the China iPhone factory had a
| protest and brutal conflict with the local police. Reasons varied
| from unbearable working condition, the zero-covid policy, and
| being deceived about the compensation. After the local police
| oppressed the campaign, the government assigned headcounts to
| local villages, demanding them to fill in the factory slots. No
| wonder Apple loves China so much.
|
| Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the
| ethics implication of doing business in China. Apple has utilized
| the cheap labor at a level where can never be possible in the
| civilized world, as well as making great profit out of the upper
| class of China, who directly benefits from the oppression system
| of CCP or part of the party themselves. It turns out that in
| spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about
| nothing but the profit and its comfortable zone in China.
|
| And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as
| soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, as if all
| the blood has not been spilled.
| jasonhansel wrote:
| While I have no praise for the CCP, India's current government
| is not without its problems:
| https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/modi-india-personality-...
| Qtips87 wrote:
| India has never been a democracy in the sense that the
| Westerners understood it. India is also a fucking land
| grabber. It has land grabbed every single of its neighbors
| once the British left town. You never hear it in the West
| because it doesn't fit the narrative the West has on India.
| naruvimama wrote:
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Could you please expand a bit on the land-grabbing part? I
| would love to learn more.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/136236833245/expa
| nsi...
|
| You're welcome.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| I might add that India acquired a new territory dispute
| with Nepal just a few several years ago by unilaterally
| publishing a new map incorporating what used to be part
| of Nepal territory (according to India's old map) into
| India's new map. The action triggered a counteract by the
| Nepalese government when it published its own map.
|
| These newly acquired disputed territory is different than
| the old dispute of Kalapani. In that case India requested
| Nepal to grant India access to Kalapani to better monitor
| China's troop movement during the 1962 war with China
| because Kalapani is on a high ground. The problem is once
| India squatted on that land it never leave and is still
| squatting on Kalapani to this day.
| sremani wrote:
| This comparing Indian Democracy with CCP is public exhibition
| of Intellectual dishonesty. No, they are not even in the same
| ball park.
|
| Is there corruption in India, absolutely. Can you oppose the
| Indian government politically and still make hand over fist
| money, absolutely and in Indian South, East, North, West even
| in New Delhi itself.
|
| Try getting a loan in China and being vocal critic of CCP.
| Indian democracy has different energy but when you consider
| transfer of power after election, it is a run fucking away
| success.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| naruvimama wrote:
| ls15 wrote:
| > And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in
| India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy,
| as if all the blood has not been spilled.
|
| I doubt it. The disadvantages of being dependant on a single
| source are well-understood in 2022.
| [deleted]
| usrnm wrote:
| They were understood just as well 50 years ago, the problem
| is, all these disadvantages are long term. Short term profits
| always win
| abrouwers wrote:
| I disagree, for long term sourcing. It takes awhile to get
| relationships, supply chain, etc. established.
| TrapLord_Rhodo wrote:
| Not OP, but the way i read their comment is the problems
| only become apparent in the long term.
|
| When you do a cost to benefit analysis on china it always
| sounds great.
|
| Yeah, you have to deal with a couple minor PR blunders
| since you are hiring slave labor, 2-3 weeks ARO boat time
| kinda sucks but they are fair trade offs for World class
| manufacturing for half the cost, and obscene payment
| terms since the CCP is involved in the deal making (120
| days Payment terms on each milestone for CapEx is normal
| in china).
|
| Only do you realise that you are manufacturing in a
| entirely foreign regime and that regime can do whatever
| it wants do you realise it's a problem. You are at their
| whim from a import/ export tax, wars (trade, economic and
| real), etc.
|
| But all the benefits are real and easy to quanitify. The
| negatives are ethical and imagined until they are not.
| yarky wrote:
| Well understood? I doubt many organizations had a pandemic
| SOP/DRP before 2020.
| runamok wrote:
| There's no reason more should not have had one. Here are
| CDC notes about SARS from 2004.
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/sars/clinical/preparedness.html
| ibeckermayer wrote:
| *Short term profits always win in a system of de jure
| financial bailouts and de facto cartels (via regulatory
| capture, such as the patent system).
| iso1631 wrote:
| > I doubt it. The disadvantages of being dependant on a
| single source are well-understood in 2022.
|
| How many businesses rely entirely on AWS? How plausible would
| it be for them to move to Azure or GCP or similar?
| thefounder wrote:
| Sure, let's move some of that production to Vietnam because
| they are good communists!
| duxup wrote:
| > I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as
| soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy
|
| It seems unlikely that zero Covid is the issue for Apple...
| alephnan wrote:
| > Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the
| ethics implication of doing business in X
|
| For clothing, people can check the label. Most consumers simply
| don't care enough when fast fashion is cheaper and more
| convenient than "ethical brands"
| amelius wrote:
| People never see the harm done so they are basically
| ignorant.
|
| Most people wouldn't eat meat if they had to kill an animal
| either.
| rolisz wrote:
| Plenty of people live on farms and grow animals, kill them
| and then eat them.
|
| I haven't killed one myself, but I have been at pig
| butchering "parties" at my grandparents or uncles and saw
| how the sausage is made. Still tastes yummy.
| amelius wrote:
| I bet if you ask city people to either kill an animal or
| grab a shrink-wrapped package containing a vegetarian
| meat substitute, by far the majority would choose the
| latter.
| Karunamon wrote:
| ... For a meal or 2, and then they're just as likely to
| grab the knife after realizing how nasty those meat
| substitutes taste compared to the real thing.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| But you're also comparing apples to oranges. I would take
| the shrink-wrapped thing to, just because I have neither
| the means nor the skill to slaughter (or store) an
| animal. Offer people to either get a crate of raw soy or
| kill an animal, then we are at a comparable level.
| amelius wrote:
| Ok, if it was not clear, add:
|
| ... under comparable circumstances.
| tyingq wrote:
| I would guess a fair amount of city dwellers have gone
| fishing.
| oblak wrote:
| I've been there as well. Disgusting all around. I refused
| to eat it. Would've gone vegetarian 30+ years ago if I
| could.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Sonetimes you go buy an ethical brabd, and then turbs out ut
| was from thevsame factoemry. Mahor brands like Nestle
| havecslavery in the supply chain, without chiba being
| involved
| mantas wrote:
| For Nestle, supply chain is the least evil thing. Hard to
| beat their baby formulas marketing
|
| Fuck Nestle.
| akmittal wrote:
| > I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as
| soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy,
|
| Companies are not stupid to invest billions just to get
| manufacturing for few months. If someone is making assembly
| plans they will be willing to use it for atleast 4-5 years
| jotm wrote:
| Doing well at the expense of some of the population, name a
| more draconian duo heh.
| powerapple wrote:
| Wrong. The protest is about compensation, the workers were
| promised to have 10k once they get pass the probation period, 3
| months. They were let go before the 3 month probation finished,
| and they demand the payment. You don't just go around
| developing world and criticize people not eating organic food
| or anything. It is not right. I wish Chinese workers get paid
| the same amount as their western counterparts, the fact is that
| factories moved there because of they can pay less. Is it a bad
| thing? No, apparently we need dollars to import anything, so
| they are making less money in western standards, but at least
| they are making some money. Has fairtrade coffee made African
| countries as rich as Europe? it will never happen, forget about
| ethics, if you are taking away the financial base where people
| can make a living, you are taking away everything.
| enkid wrote:
| Wait, are you saying because China isn't rich, workers
| shouldn't have rights? I'm legitimately asking, because when
| you boil down your argument, that's what it sounds like.
| CyanBird wrote:
| Flying geese companies move there _exactly_ because Chinese
| workers can be abused nearly at will given that the focus
| of the government is (was) development at all costs
|
| Flying geese will always abuse their workers, that's what
| Apple is. Same with let's say Foxconn
| powerapple wrote:
| No, developing world DOES NOT have a choice, that's a fact.
| Unless you are sending money every day to developing world,
| taking their jobs away is basically murdering people. Maybe
| too much for soft westerns who didn't understand why people
| risking their lives and their kids' on a boat to Europe.
| dirtyid wrote:
| >iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from
| Xinjiang.
|
| High quality hardware and cotton that lifts peasants out of
| poverty through heavy state coordination with proceeds
| reinvested to move up value chain. No better = equally good.
| anovikov wrote:
| Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable
| consumer products without dealing with someone who treats
| workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing
| this. Of course, we have a choice of them being Commies
| (China), or not being Commies (India), but that's about it.
|
| Only way to fundamentally fix it will be to introduce a new
| Iron Curtain where we will "not trade with anyone we don't
| control", and that might work after a few frustrating years of
| high inflation and shortages, but will be too politically
| costly to try.
| vouwfietsman wrote:
| Calling China Commies is misplaced, its a self proclaimed
| communist state in the same way that North Korea is a self
| proclaimed democratic state. I think (not sure) China is
| mostly seen as "state-capitalist" by experts, which means a
| capitalist market with heavy state control & influence.
|
| To label China as communist is similar to labeling the US as
| a company: it's a misrepresentation of the truth and says
| more about the labeler than about the country itself.
| sofixa wrote:
| > Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable
| consumer products without dealing with someone who treats
| workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also
| doing this
|
| In some cases that's true, but in the case of Apple - the one
| with higher cost "luxury" products, double digit percent
| profit margins, tens of billions of cash and trillion dollar
| market cap - it doesn't really make sense as an excuse.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Apple has grown to this size because they had a much better
| margin than its competitors in the first place. If they
| built everything in America they would have disappeared
| long ago.
| FabHK wrote:
| > iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from
| Xinjiang.
|
| I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll
| find that they disagree.
|
| > It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes,
| it actually cares about nothing but the profit
|
| How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and
| the actions of the Chinese police?
|
| Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain
| standards and ethics? https://www.apple.com/supplier-
| responsibility/
|
| > Apple has utilized the cheap labor at a level where can never
| be possible in the civilized world,
|
| I'll just post this here from
| https://www.semafor.com/article/11/30/2022/apples-chinese-
| dr...:
|
| > China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with
| the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in
| 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a
| Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal
| minimum wage. For comparison, the average rate for a Mexican
| factory worker has stayed stagnant at $2 per hour.
| ftyhbhyjnjk wrote:
| I really hope Apple as a company dies asap. Fcking hypocrite
| company. One of the most morally bankrupt companies in the
| world.
|
| And please, take whiny little pussy xi jinping with
| themselves too... in the ground.
| alex_sf wrote:
| > I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang,
| you'll find that they disagree.
|
| Are you suggesting that China's slaves would prefer that the
| global economy continuing exploiting them?
|
| > How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy,
| and the actions of the Chinese police?
|
| They are enriching the entity that designed the policies and
| directs the police.
|
| > Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain
| standards and ethics?
|
| Yes. Have you read the extensive laws against murder? Does
| murder still happen?
|
| > China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with
| the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in
| 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of
| a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S.
| federal minimum wage.
|
| No, it won't. Chinese labor law is a joke. Nobody in these
| factories are actually working 44 hours.
| golemiprague wrote:
| fmajid wrote:
| Wonderful news indeed, but it's not out of any ethical
| concerns, but because XI Jinping's draconian zero-Covid policy
| and incessant lockdowns have made the Chinese supply-chain
| unreliable, something Apple like all businesses hate (remember,
| Tim Cook became head of Apple because of his supply-chain
| management chops).
|
| Still, good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China
| just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day. Even if there
| is a new Deng to fix the damage after him, the world will not
| naively give China the same opportunities again.
| jdhn wrote:
| > the world will not naively give China the same
| opportunities again.
|
| I fear that you're wrong. Hopefully I'm the one who's wrong,
| but only time will tell.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| My general rule; is there money in it? If so people will
| try again.
| joejerryronnie wrote:
| That's why Banana Stands will never lose their
| popularity.
| otikik wrote:
| > good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just
| as his inspiration Mao did back in the day
|
| This affects real people who just found themselves on this
| situation and have no power to change it. Gleefully calling
| the situation "good" is callous and insensitive.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| People always have the power, but it requires the sacrifice
| your life for change, we are lucky we had our ancestors do
| that.
| safety1st wrote:
| I didn't read the parent as approving of totalitarianism or
| the damage that arises from it. Unfortunately the memories
| of Western elites seem to be very short when it comes to
| Chinese atrocities. The silver lining to the very dark
| cloud of current events is that it's increasingly hard for
| them to ignore how evil the Chinese system and its rulers
| are.
|
| I was alive before we handed all our manufacturing capacity
| over to China and we got along just fine. I was alive while
| it was happening, too, and I remember it being sold to the
| public as the first step toward an inevitable transition to
| liberal democracy in China. All those lies are now
| completely unmasked. China lied, the MNCs lied, Western
| governments lied. Never forget all the lies we were told.
| Never forgive either.
| pirate787 wrote:
| Yeah its also nothing like the horrors of Mao's Cultural
| Revolution and the mass starvation of the Great Leap
| Forward.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Countries and their citizens will go through turmoil and
| strife regardless of how people halfway around the world
| react to it. Using this to show the inefficiencies of CCP
| management is just commentary on how China's dictatorship
| system hardly works when your entire cabinet/advisory board
| is full of yesmen.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| > have no power to change it
|
| Who are these people? The one and a half billion Chinese
| are powerless to rise up? No government can subjugate a
| billion people. Their state is powerful but it only works
| because the citizenry are decently happy with their lives
| getting better over the last decades
| jeswin wrote:
| > Their state is powerful but it only works because the
| citizenry are decently happy with their lives getting
| better over the last decades
|
| China has had a billion for more than 40 years now; the
| only signficant challenge to the CCP's dictatorship was
| at Tiananmen in 1989. Communism has developed fairly
| sophisticated tools to help retain control; all the way
| up from textbooks in schools to violence as needed.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| I know. But if you look at the standard of living for the
| average Chinese over the last 40 years it is no surprise
| that there hasn't been any major upheaval. Especially
| coming off of Mao's deranged dark ages-level rule.
| ksec wrote:
| >Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the
| ethics implication of doing business in China.
|
| May be for many westerners, but not Apple. They knew _exactly_
| what they are doing.
|
| >It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes,
| it actually cares about nothing but the profit and its
| comfortable zone in China.
|
| Which is the worst part of it all. Their _insane_ hypocrisy.
|
| Now that Apple is _only_ moving _assembly_ out of China, but
| they are continuing their help and bring BOE ( Display ) , YMTC
| ( NAND ) and CXMT ( DRAM ) into their Supply Chain. Even long
| time partner for Battery like LG Chem are getting less order in
| flavour or another Chinese Partner.
|
| But Yes, again Apple wins the headline and PR because they are
| finally moving out of China. And even if this isn't even
| confirmed, or in the work. Vast majority of public will think
| everything is working in that direction or as if they have been
| done already.
| RC_ITR wrote:
| Exactly. Tim Cook was the supply chain guy.
|
| He became CEO because he was the only one as maniacally
| focused as Jobs, as proven to Steve by his willingness to
| make a literal deal with the devil.
|
| The India plan will probably stick because Apple feels burned
| by zero covid and won't keep themselves open to that kind of
| risk going forward.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Wouldn't India be similarly volatile? To an extent, it is
| possible to compare any country to the phenomenon that is
| China. Isn't the current government run by a wannabe
| strongman (sorry, but I cannot bring myself to use the word
| "strong" in earnest next to that kind of politician) the
| type of administrator who has shown recently to do all
| kinds of random moves for the sake of posturing/self-
| imposed grandieur?
| RC_ITR wrote:
| Risk is what it is.
|
| What you want is _uncorrelated_ risk (that way, you
| always have _some_ capacity available.)
| saiya-jin wrote:
| > May be for many westerners, but not Apple. They knew
| exactly what they are doing.
|
| Yeah right, the idea that richest company ever didnt do a
| _proper_ due dilligence and Tim personally didnt have whole +
| and - list with detailed financial and PR projections of each
| choice etc. is pretty naive. I bet stuff thats happening was
| pretty high on cons list.
|
| Everybody who wants to knows how things actually look like in
| China on the ground knows it easily these days, no mysteries.
| Suicides, oppression, child labor. Yet they couldnt care less
| and the only reason to move away is disruption of supply.
|
| Ladies and gentlement there you have it, true morals of yet
| another big corporation, not worse but certainly not better.
|
| But anytime I said something similar here on HN I get
| downvoted to hell, people for some ridiculous reason create
| tight emotional bond with a plastic gadgets in their pocket
| and go to great lengths to defend it regardless of facts.
|
| And the last item - the idea that same amoral money-driven
| corporation on the other hand truly, properly cares about
| privacy beyond moves that look good from PR perspective is
| dangerously naive too. There is simply no safe commercial
| phone, and Apple would have to open source all software and
| hardware to prove otherwise, so its just not happening.
| adventured wrote:
| > Suicides, oppression, child labor. Yet they couldnt care
| less and the only reason to move away is disruption of
| supply. ... Ladies and gentlement there you have it, true
| morals of yet another big corporation, not worse but
| certainly not better.
|
| Do you have a link to reports on Apple utilizing child
| labor, from which your conclusion is derived? How much of
| their labor in China is based on children?
|
| From what I've read in the past, they became extremely
| vigilant in particular about eliminating child labor from
| their supply chains a long time ago.
| bryans wrote:
| If you had read something about Apple being "extremely
| vigilant" about eliminating child labor, it was a press
| release from Apple. It was a bald-faced lie, but it
| apparently worked, because you're unfortunately
| perpetuating it (even if unintentionally so).
|
| In reality, Apple has only started to address child labor
| _in the past two years_ , and that was _after_ being
| exposed for their continued egregious use of child labor
| and unwavering support of labor abuses.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-knowingly-used-
| child-l...
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-supplier-accused-
| of-us...
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/appl
| e-u...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/25/apple-
| chi...
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| Okay, be real for a second -- Apple doing manufacturing in
| China benefited the common Chinese factory worker by driving
| up wages.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| And to be even realer, Apple doing manufacturing in
| [country that isn't China] would have benefited the common
| factory worker in [country that isn't China] by driving up
| wages without also benefiting the totalitarian government
| of China.
| ignoramous wrote:
| That benefit overlooks a lot of human cost involved. And if
| you're being real, you'd know the major beneficiary is
| Apple. The American companies aren't quite the saviors that
| folks might think they are.
| Shoue wrote:
| Funnily, it is generally true given that net resource
| transfers to the global south have been negative for most
| countries... with the big exception being China[1], so
| China has benefited off global trade deals like these,
| but their income inequality isn't exactly something to
| look up to either (but despite that, they manage to beat
| the US on this stat). The other poor countries are mostly
| falling behind in a relative sense, and have been since
| the 80s, so we should certainly be thinking about
| disincentivising borderline slave labour because right
| now it isn't worth it for those countries, they simply
| aren't benefiting off doing it.
|
| But also, we are moving (slowly) in the direction you'd
| likely prefer: Norway and Germany are now doing supply
| chain due diligence[2]. Hopefully we continue moving in
| that direction so we can push the floor up and perverse
| human rights violations become more of a thing of the
| past.
|
| [1] https://gfintegrity.org/press-release/new-report-on-
| unrecord...
|
| [2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/business-and-
| human-r...
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| Vague hand-waving about "human cost" of having factories
| that employ people is a load of abstract obscurantist
| nonsense.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Not sure if you're trolling but this wasn't even hard to
| find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practices_of_Apple_In
| c.#Manufa...
|
| I wish sometimes folks could see past their paychecks,
| privilege, and holier-than-thou attitude. That's too much
| to ask. I mean, better chances at holding Apple
| accountable than dealing with its notorious fanbois.
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| I don't have a paycheck, I'm living off capital gains,
| thank you. Your argument is a great example of throwing a
| pile of words (via your link) at a question and missing
| entirely, because the question is, "Does foreign
| investment in manufacturing make workers of a country
| better off?" and the answer is, "Yes, vastly."
|
| But thank you for pointing out that Communist governance
| is awful, we're in agreement there.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Tell me you didn't read the link, and we can both go off
| on our merry ways? If you did, I want to know precisely
| which part about 'human cost' is hard for you to
| understand. Set aside the 'oh you poor lot, without
| american money you're toast' attitude for a second (it
| isn't charity!), and then try to reason about it all
| (including the profits going back into the american
| coffers).
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| You're not actually computing the answer to whether
| foreign investment made the Chinese vastly better off.
| The answer is, it did. You can even absorb an entire
| Wikipedia section into the question _without_ considering
| the counterfactual of what unemployment or lower-wage
| factor employment or agrarian employment practices were
| like, and the answer is yes, it did.
|
| > then try to reason about it all (including the profits
| going back into the american coffers).
|
| Apple's profits come from their customers giving them
| money, not the Chinese employees, who took profits as
| well.
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _You 're not actually computing the answer to whether
| foreign investment made the Chinese vastly better off._
|
| That could have happened without humans being treated
| like cattle. I don't think that's hard to compute? If it
| is, no amount of 'what else could the american
| capitalists do if not leverage lower wage structures to
| their advantage' justifies that, I am sorry.
|
| > _Apple 's profits come from their customers giving them
| money, not the Chinese employees, who took profits as
| well._
|
| Employees took the profits? The profits trickled down
| from one mega corp to another; the line workers had to
| pay for it with their health. Answering "why wouldn't
| Apple build iPhones in the US" makes the capitalist
| designs plenty clear (which isn't a bad thing, and there
| are all kinds of ways to make money, but after a reaching
| a certain scale and seemingly bottomless capacity to
| generate revenue, it should start to matter just _how_ it
| is made, as well).
| adventured wrote:
| You'll be unable to paint an alternative scenario for
| bypassing the process of gradual wage increases because
| it would never work in reality.
|
| What was China going to do, warp straight to having an
| economy with $60,000 GDP per capita? If things actually
| worked that way, countries as diverse as Romania,
| Indonesia, India, Vietnam, Pakistan, Mexico - they'd all
| do it too. It doesn't work that way. You have to move up,
| gradually, through a very long and grinding road of
| progress and persistence.
|
| Subtract the companies that provide the jobs for
| developing nations, and you have nothing. And you can't
| give a single other example throughout modern industrial
| history for an alternative path, because there can't be
| one. The capital investment has to come from outside, it
| has to be incentivized (otherwise why bother), and or you
| have to very slowly build it up from development
| internally + foreign trade (and that internal development
| will be accomplished by corporations just the same, just
| as it also was in China by domestic companies that behave
| just like Apple or worse).
|
| Name a country that has skipped from poor and developing
| to affluent and developed without going through it
| (specifically without relying overwhelmingly on natural
| resources like oil, those are extreme outliers).
| ignoramous wrote:
| That's all well and good, but today's mega corps are
| leeches. And the world is more connected and less
| isolated. Things are very different from the 1950s to the
| 1980s to now.
| cloutchaser wrote:
| People forget this is actually what Singapore did. Before
| being a biotech and tech powerhouse, they were an
| assembly factory for western companies. Then they slowly
| expanded from that to airport, tech, airline, etc.
|
| They have a geographic advantage too, but no one had to
| make Singapore a central shipping hub, it could have been
| anywhere else.
|
| This is how you do it. There's no other way. Eastern
| Europe is an interesting work in progress at the same
| thing. But the Ukraine war has really put a spanner in
| the works.
| sgu999 wrote:
| > Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the
| ethics implication of doing business in China.
|
| Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like
| don't do any better regarding ethics. Not sure why the divide
| with the "ignorant west" is necessary in your argument.
|
| Of course people at Apple understand the risk, and it is taken
| into account to generate as much profit as possible.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the
| like don't do any better regarding ethics.
|
| You can rightfully complain about labor practices in other
| Asian countries, but forced labor from concentration camps is
| a uniquely Chinese atrocity.
| flandish wrote:
| > uniquely Chinese
|
| No. It's not. See also: the US prison labor system.
| sgu999 wrote:
| It appears I worded my argument wrongly. I am not comparing
| asian countries. I am only stating that the ones directly
| in charge of forced labor in this case are asian companies
| (Foxcon to start with). And that the ones giving orders are
| interchangeably asian or "westerner" companies (Samsung and
| Apple being two examples).
|
| My point was that when it comes to profit and exploitation
| of workers, dividing in between "nice asians" and "mean
| westerners" is completely wrong.
| Markoff wrote:
| I think you should read up more in Asia if you think slave
| labor is unique to China, you can start with Thai fishing
| industry.
|
| Btw not that it would be case with Apple, these are
| Taiwanese companies with factories in China, so maybe
| instead blaming China blame the Taiwan, but I understand
| it's not trendy.
|
| Oh and let's not forget "democratic" Vietnam with communist
| gov censoring internet and imprisoning people for opinions,
| where did I see that? And don't get me started on biggest
| "democracy" where you still have caste system which is
| mutually exclusive with democracy. Lived in China and
| visited all these for extended periods and it's very naive
| to think Vietnam or India are some step ups conscience
| wise.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| There is a general lawlessness in India the 'biggest
| democracy' but aside from that large swathes of area in
| India is under a law that gives the state the power to
| imprison or kill anyone with impunity. No due process, no
| question asked. Anyone can be jailed or be killed by the
| state if the state deemed the person a security threat
| for whatever reason. The law is called AFSPA (Armed Force
| Special Power Act) and is imposed in Kashmir and the
| northeast. It is a brutal law that no civilized country
| should have.
| FabHK wrote:
| Or about the people forced to run Bitcoin scams in
| Sihanoukville, Cambodia.
| Markoff wrote:
| I guess that would still be improvement from infamous
| Chicken farm.
| iglio wrote:
| Just for completeness, the US has its own flavor of issues
| here in its prison system.
|
| Just 23C/ to $1.15 is the typical hourly pay [1], and work
| is not always voluntary and up to the same employee
| protection/safety standards as true employment [2].
|
| Labour sourced from the incarcerated creates problematic
| incentives in law enforcement.
|
| [1] https://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/unicor_abo
| ut.js...
|
| [2] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document
| /2022...
| philwelch wrote:
| If someone actually commits a serious felony--murder,
| rape, car theft, aggravated assault--I think they
| _should_ be sentenced to forced labor.
| psd1 wrote:
| Forced labour means profit for someone. That is far too
| close to slavery to avoid major value clash, so it will
| hide itself to present a respectable face. Corruption is
| inevitable. You'll end up with judges sentencing children
| for profit. Off to the new world in fetters. As the
| setting for a novel, I'm convinced.
| enkid wrote:
| This is true, and one of the great tragedies of modern US
| society, but doesn't lessen the immorality of what China
| is doing.
| luckylion wrote:
| And one that's usually not done by Apple or Samsung, but by
| contract-manufacturers like Foxconn. Both Apple and Samsung
| use Foxconn. The "iphone factories" aren't Apple-factories,
| they're Foxconn factories which currently produce iphones
| but will produce Samsung galaxy phones if iphone production
| moves.
|
| It's a "companies use Chinese as-close-to-slave-labor-as-
| you-can-get-without-being-called-out-labor" thing, not a
| "naive Western company finds out how things work in China"
| thing.
| ekianjo wrote:
| lets not compare South Korea and China please...
| sgu999 wrote:
| I was comparing Apple to Samsung. But OK.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the
| ethics implication of doing business in China.
|
| That was a a great apology for colonial industrialism and how
| US companies exploit workers in other countries and just move
| on when they also decimate their culture.
|
| They know the risks. They do not care. They are on to the next
| "risk" where there will make another few billion.
| cpursley wrote:
| I basically agree with you on all points.
|
| But can we please drop this "civilized world" term?
|
| I suggest "democratic world".
| radicalbyte wrote:
| Yeah considering that China for about 2000 years was the
| leading civilisation I'm not sure why people use that term.
| flandish wrote:
| Because it's a propaganda term meant to imply China is
| uncivilized without directly saying it. Like calling
| America a democracy. We know it's not but propaganda keeps
| that image "out there."
| _ZeD_ wrote:
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| How do you define leading?
| qwytw wrote:
| > Yeah considering that China for about 2000
|
| More like 500 years (1000 years at best if you stretch it
| very hard)
| [deleted]
| amelius wrote:
| If you agree with all the points, then civilized seems apt.
| cpursley wrote:
| You can be "civilized" and an autocracy. Certain aspects of
| modern China makes the West look like a backwater. Hell,
| even Russia has less people in prison than the US and free
| heath care.
|
| Also, that phrase just reeks of imperialism, racism and
| superiority - just a modern version of "savages who need
| our one true religion". OPs argument is about democracy,
| not level of development and culture.
|
| For clarity: I'm anti-autocracy
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| What aspect of China makes the West look like a
| 'backwater'? I literally cannot think of a single thing.
| That doesn't mean China has no positive aspects. The West
| is also not monolithic.
| FabHK wrote:
| > What aspect of China makes the West look like a
| 'backwater'?
|
| Growth, for one.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > What aspect of China makes the West look like a
| 'backwater'?
|
| Compare China homicide rates to USA.
|
| Or China incarceration rate to USA incarceration rate.
| kace91 wrote:
| I'd argue that most of the numbers you'll find apply to
| the US, not to the west. The US is pretty much known
| everywhere for having third world shortcomings on
| specific areas.
| wil421 wrote:
| China has less prisoners and the fastest wait times for
| organ transplants.
| amelius wrote:
| The combination of those two things make it sound very
| suspicious ...
| TMWNN wrote:
| philwelch wrote:
| Also, China's incarceration rates don't count people who
| have been welded into their apartments under the zero-
| COVID policy.
| lpcvoid wrote:
| I have not done any research on this and am genuinely
| interested - why can I trust the numbers the CCP releases
| on incarceration rate?
| JZM8yKnRvGv wrote:
| According to stats there are 1.3 million people
| incarcerated in China.
|
| If incarceration rates in China were similar to those in
| USA it should be 10.3 million people. It would be pretty
| hard to hide them.
|
| USA are by far the number one country in the World for
| jail population and for incarceration rates, worse even
| than Putin's Russia.
|
| They would love to share the top step of the podium with
| someone else if they could prove it.
|
| The most logical explanation is that they can't, because
| the numbers are probably not true, but not too far from
| the truth.
| pistoriusp wrote:
| Does this include the 12.8 million Uyghurs in China?
| alex_smart wrote:
| Do you seriously believe that all 12.8 million Uyghurs in
| China are literally imprisoned?
| otikik wrote:
| Probably those are not on the "stats"
| onetokeoverthe wrote:
| jahnu wrote:
| We do plenty of uncivilised things in the democratic world.
| Casting China as uncivilised empowers the CCP to point at
| our prejudices and argue that their way is better and any
| Chinese who support democracy are self-hating traitors.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| then USA should not be considerd part of the civilized
| World.
|
| A country where it is acceptable to have workers forced to
| pee in bottles or bullied by their new CEO (who's also a
| pathological liar)
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > I suggest "democratic world".
|
| That's funny. Where is that?
|
| Not the U.S., that is for sure. Look how the government just
| screwed over the rail workers:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/joe-
| bi...
|
| There is a one world government and it is a oligarchy.
| throwawaaay129 wrote:
| I don't know where people get the idea people are semi-enslaved
| in factories.. Having lived in China, in my second hand
| experience Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict.
| Somewhere between US and Europe. It's not really easy to fire
| people and people regularly sue their employers and win. The
| legal system is generally very heavily biased towards the
| little guy
|
| I just feel really bad for these people. They probably left
| some country side life making peanuts to go make some real
| money for a while at a factory and like send their kids to
| college or whatever - and now westerners are like "no, you
| shouldn't do that. go back to your bucolic life of poverty. And
| btw we hate your government". Cool
|
| From the initial reports it sounds like Foxxcon really royally
| screwed up and was not prepared logistically for a lockdown.
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63739562
|
| Another big part of this whole fiasco seems to have been
| conspiracy-theory style rumors and just a general freakout of
| the workers (which is kinda understandable given how policies
| are opaque and feel arbitrary)
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63481793
|
| "This young factory worker heard that the army was going to
| come in and take control so as to enforce a type of giant
| "living with Covid" experiment which involved allowing everyone
| in that part of Zhengzhou city to get sick."
|
| In my experience.. even talking to educated middle class
| people.. these kinds of things are super common - even with all
| the social media controls. People believe all sorts of insane
| things b/c their sister's husband's cousin is in the army and
| told them blah blah. If in the US a double digit percentage of
| people believe that 9/11 was inside job - in the developing
| world the numbers are way scarier. It sounds like there was
| mass panic (again, kinda understandable given the mushroom
| management that's so common in Asia)
| rwalle wrote:
| Born and raised in China, I stopped reading this after the
| first paragraph.
|
| Laws are meaningless if they are never enforced or are simply
| ignored. Which happens all the time in China.
|
| It is not easy to fire people. Sure, in normal situations.
| But when appropriate, government is going to ignore all these
| and do whatever necessary, and maybe even threaten to put you
| or your family in jail. Want to go to court? Good luck, the
| judges are going to stand with the government.
|
| Another example: the _constitution_ says that Chinese people
| have the freedom to speak, publish and demonstrate etc. Tell
| me how that has worked out.
| throwawaaay129 wrote:
| If the government is out to get you, then yeah you're
| screwed.
|
| If it's you against a company - then you typically have
| more protections than I think the typical western reader
| would expect.
|
| I personally know people that had issues firing others at
| their company as well as people that got compensation when
| fired. Sure there are loopholes and people still get
| screwed a lot, but on the whole companies are generally
| apprehensive to fire employees and it's not totally the
| wild west
|
| In the current situation, it very much sounds like it's
| people vs. Foxconn and that in the end people got their
| compensation.
|
| You can argue that the situation was instigated by
| government policies, but that's sorta besides the point
| powerapple wrote:
| I'd say you are not seeing the world as it is. In the past,
| a job is for life, no one gets fired, and their children
| will take their position in the same factory, you get
| housing and everything. Now, if you are in state-owned
| enterprise and companies, you have a job for life unless
| you don't want it any more. In private sector, especially
| small companies, you may get screwed over. No, government
| will not try to fire you, you are nobody to them. You can
| go to labour court for these things, and normally you will
| get compensated for illegal termination. I am also only
| speaking in general, not cases.
| yarky wrote:
| > Born and raised in China.
|
| The OP made a good point that applies to all poor countries
| I've lived in: those jobs are the only (even the best) way
| out for most people to get out of poverty, which they do to
| help their families/children/themselves.
|
| Maybe you were raised in a family that did not need to go
| through such hard labor, but that doesn't mean your right
| in your view of your own world ;)
|
| P.S. I was also born and raised in a poor country.
| accurrent wrote:
| So I grew up in China and I can agree that the law is
| applied selectively. If you are a foreign corporation and
| have not paid the right bribes or in good books of the
| ccp official in your area in charge woe behold if you
| violate any labor rights. On the other hand if you're
| friends with the right people you can basically operate a
| slave camp.
|
| That being said I do agree that our attitude of "lets
| shut down here cuz it doesnt work for us" does more harm
| than good. It's not like this will solve corruption. If
| anything, this will give Chinese people more reason to
| hate on USA and India, thus further cementing their
| governments power.
| netheril96 wrote:
| The point that "those jobs are the only (even the best)
| way out for most people to get out of poverty" stands.
| But the point that China has strict labor laws is
| laughable. The laws are indeed strict but seldom
| enforced.
| yarky wrote:
| > The laws are indeed strict but seldom enforced.
|
| This is true of most strict rules elsewhere: they're
| there but seldom enforced. Take speed limits, they're
| strict, but good luck enforcing them. All we do is we
| monitor from time to time and give tickets. Yet we could
| enforce this to the manufacturers, right? Why can a car
| go beyond the speed limit if it's strictly prohibited?
|
| We cannot compare working conditions as is, but they're
| easy to compare when you take time into account: how
| where our labor laws a couple of generations ago? Not
| that different than poor countries today.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| > Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict.
|
| The fact 996 is illegal and still practiced and complained
| about and censored... makes any existence of protection laws
| being strict null and void.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| Who can honestly say they did not ever flaunt worktime laws
| (where they exist)? IT people do 60-80 hours, in the
| liberal-democratic country where there is a strict limit of
| 48 hours/week (and the average being around 39h). People
| wear that as a misplaced badge of honour - and often
| complain behind closed doors.
|
| Sounds similar.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| I've been living in Asia for 11 or 12 years now. There is
| definitely a strange culture of over-working.
|
| Young people who live at home with their parents
| sometimes work late because they don't want to go home to
| their parents.
|
| Alot of other people work late because they want to get
| noticed for promotions etc.
|
| Some of it's self-inflicted. The first company I worked
| for in Singapore, the 'suits' as they are called
| (glorified sales people) would take requests from clients
| and commit at 6pm to deliverying the fixes by morning,
| then requesting the developers stay and do the work while
| they go home.
|
| So there are definitely, 100% scenarios where it's not
| the company itself directly demanding employees to doing
| insane hours. But it does happen, China requires non-
| overtime hours to be capped at 36 hours. People are often
| not compensated for any extra hours they do.
| throwawaaay129 wrote:
| Yeah, I think it's a scenario where you can probably sue
| and you can probably win - but then (just like in the US)
| you're known as the person that sues their employer and
| it's a black mark.
|
| I haven't heard of people getting lawsuits about 996
| thrown out in China - but to be fair I also haven't heard
| of people suing over that either.
| fyresala wrote:
| > but to be fair I also haven't heard of people suing
| over that either.
|
| Guess why
| powerapple wrote:
| the labour law was mainly for factory workers, there
| overtime needs to be compensated. For office workers, it is
| not clearly defined, because typically you are evaluated by
| works done, not by time as factory workers.
| hackernewds wrote:
| This reads oddly like propaganda and flies against any and
| all of the evidence that we regularly observe, including the
| protests against working conditions that we are observing now
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| China does have some of the best worker protection laws.
|
| The protests we're observing now, including the one in the
| iphone city, are against the government.
|
| Let's not conflate the two.
| rwalle wrote:
| Wow, "are against the government", that's really some
| typical CCP talk seen in their smear campaign.
|
| From what I can see people just want a bit of freedom and
| get their promised compensation. I doubt any of the
| workers has interest in overthrowing the government.
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| I'm not sure where you're from but for a good majority of
| the world, protesting against the government and wanting
| to overthrow the government are two very different
| things. I am talking about the former.
|
| The sorry state the west has devolved into in the last 2
| years.
| woooooo wrote:
| There was a different protest at a factory in shenzhen,
| prior to the lockdown protests.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _This reads oddly like propaganda and flies against any
| and all of the evidence that we regularly observe_
|
| What evidence are you observing that has convinced you it's
| one way or the other?
|
| I can go on Twitter and see some variant of the first
| comment and the second in almost every thread. What are you
| reading that you consider the "ground truth" that you can
| so easily point out the propaganda?
|
| As a Canadian, I'm sure my sources are similar to yours,
| and I'm not really sure what the truth is. I assume it's
| somewhere in the middle. One thing I _do_ know is that both
| "sides" are churning out propaganda at an unprecedented
| pace.
| mcny wrote:
| >> I assume it's somewhere in the middle.
|
| Sorry but this is not logical. You can't weigh two
| positions and say the truth is in the "middle". Sometimes
| one is more true than the other.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
|
| If one side is centrist and the other is extremist, you
| can't go between those two.
| jotm wrote:
| It can be a case of a factory running things like that.
| Pretty common in the US (with immigrants) and EU (again,
| immigrants).
|
| Except Chinese factories are huge and aplenty, so they would
| "win" by numbers.
| hulitu wrote:
| > I don't know where people get the idea people are semi-
| enslaved in factories.
|
| Just normal propaganda.
| fyresala wrote:
| Your views of labor law are completely wrong.
|
| > in my second hand experience Chinese worker protection laws
| are quite strict.
|
| And yes, it's very strict. Lawful working hours are 40 hours
| per week. Lawfully firing a employee requires higher
| compensation than US.
|
| Do you really believe above is enforced in China? Next time
| when you visiting China, ask them if familiar with this
| quote: laws in China are _strictly legislated, commonly
| broke, selectively enforced_. In fact, 996 is a norm and a
| company that does not require 996 will advertise that when
| recruiting. Layoff compensation for many people is ZERO
| because they don 't even have social insurance or contracts
| signed. 100 Chinese Yuan per day, you get it when working and
| get nothing when leaving. (That's not the case for Foxconn
| though. I believe everyone working in Foxconn at least has a
| contract.)
|
| > I just feel really bad for these people. They probably left
| some country side life making peanuts to go make some real
| money for a while at a factory and like send their kids to
| college or whatever - and now westerners are like "no, you
| shouldn't do that. go back to your bucolic life of poverty.
| And btw we hate your government". Cool
|
| Thanks, I appreciate that. I (the OP) am that kid though. And
| I believe getting involved in labor-intensive industries can
| be a better thing than what it is nowadays in China.
|
| I agree with the rest of your post. Like I mentioned, reasons
| of the protest are varied.
| powerapple wrote:
| That's loads of bullshit. People don't really understand
| the 40 hours per week thing. You CAN work overtime, as long
| as you get overtime pay, and you should have 2 days off, if
| you work on those off days, you should get double pay. It
| is very common practice in factories, where you expect to
| work overtime to earn more money.
|
| In office job it is very different, you hardly get
| compensation for overtime, but if you go to court you
| definitely can get the money. The real reason is that those
| jobs are best paid, a few times more than other people, so
| people typically only sue their companies after they are
| fired. Yes, sometimes people worry about not finding
| another job, so they will accept what's been forced on
| them.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "strictly legislated, commonly broke, selectively enforced"
|
| This is what Westerners, who are used to rule of law, do
| not understand about authoritarian countries. Selective
| enforcement of laws is the preferred way to punish
| transgressors.
|
| In Chechnya, the Kadyrovite kingdom, there is a crossroads
| with a traffic light that is always red. It never turns
| green. People routinely drive through that traffic light on
| red, because it can't be done otherwise.
|
| Why is the traffic light even there? The side road connects
| to a Kadyrovite palace. If there is any accident with any
| vehicle coming from that palace, the normal driver on the
| main road is automatically at fault - because he
| disrespected a red light.
| throwawaaay129 wrote:
| I mean I lived a sheltered life in the city and my friends
| were city folks, but I often hear people had issues firing
| bad employees. And on the flip side people new their rights
| and knew they couldn't just be left off on a random day.
|
| Companies seemed always cautious with firing. Yeah there
| was tons of sneaky stuff and people not getting their
| contracts and lots of grey area stuff - maybe the
| enforcement wasn't great. But my point is that they
| actually have some mechanisms in place that do function
| when it's you vs a company (not you vs the government). So
| it's not fair to characterize the whole place as lawless
|
| In this case from the news it seemed to have worked out
| exactly as it should legally. Foxconn messed up (or tried
| to get sneaky with paying people), they got slapped on the
| wrist by the government, everyone got paid
|
| I hope their legal systems keep improving (it was way worse
| a decade or two ago) and less companies get away with
| screwing their employees. I'm skeptical other developing
| nations like India are on some other higher level with
| their legal systems.
|
| I think your original post is extremely sensationalist -
| comparing factory work to pseudoslave labor in cotton
| fields - especially given you're from a background that
| benefitted from this (I assume your parents worked when the
| system was much worse)
| nradov wrote:
| The court system in India is notorious for delays and
| backlogs, to the extent that some companies don't invest
| there due to the difficulty of enforcing contracts.
|
| https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/indian-judiciary-
| pend...
|
| I am not defending the Chinese system, but you're correct
| that some other developing nations are as bad or worse in
| that area.
| onetokeoverthe wrote:
| 90d wrote:
| I think it was the suicide nets?
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| It is not the law or the occasional protection. It is when it
| is not working, the threat as experienced by local that is
| the issue. Not to mention the overall issue of human
| suppression. It is not helping by producing and buying china.
|
| Anyway, I think they moved is not because of this though.
| More because the unstable situation. And the invasion of
| Taiwan is inevitable. I will do it if I am in power. Not
| because I want to but I have to. That is the problem.
|
| And if that happened, what you do. Like German or EU on
| Russia oil.
|
| How many lesson you have to learn before you call yourselves
| ...
| pera wrote:
| Your experience seems very different from what several
| international human rights organisations have been reporting
| for the past two decades.
|
| I'd like to invite everyone here to follow for instance CLW:
| https://chinalaborwatch.org/
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _I 'd like to invite everyone here to follow for instance
| CLW_
|
| Unfortunately, I think we're well past the days where you
| can simply say, "The WHO says..." or "the CDC says..." or
| "<some random NGO> says..." and expect anyone to believe
| it's some source of truth.
|
| As we speak, we're _literally_ in the middle of multiple
| supposedly trustworthy institutions being exposed for
| bending the truth or creating a narrative for political
| reasons.
|
| There's a cold war with China in progress. In my country
| we're dealing with issues related to political influence by
| the Chinese. Even so, I'm trying to be careful that what I
| read isn't merely anti-Chinese propaganda, because I don't
| pretend we're not guilty of that ourselves.
| powerapple wrote:
| My take is that most people use this as an excuse, no one
| cares about labors, if you really care about them, I would
| shift more jobs, they make enough money and leave factory,
| have a small business. I have relatives working in factories,
| it is the best thing happen to them.
|
| People are afraid to say 'fk China' blindly so they have to
| say it under disguise of some moral ground.
| georgeplusplus wrote:
| I feel the western general population shares responsibility. We
| all know whats going on and are told repeatedly but don't care
| or act.
| pstuart wrote:
| It seems like more robotics is called for, if only Apple had
| the money to invest in it...
| [deleted]
| nowherebeen wrote:
| What Apple has learned is that they need to diversify their
| manufacturing risk. It's not surprising they want to move some
| production to India. I have doubts they will completely move away
| from China though. Apple is a business, they don't care about
| politics as long as it doesn't hinder their production.
| rdl wrote:
| I wish we could fix whatever prevents this from happening at
| scale in Mexico, too (with some high value production in the US
| and potentially Canada as well, and maybe some other supplies
| coming from the elsewhere in the Americas.). I wonder if it is
| infrastructure, regulation, labor, or what.
| arcticbull wrote:
| I remember seeing a chart a while back that said the actual
| cost of manufacturing in China is roughly the same as in the
| US, one has much lower labor costs and the other much lower
| energy costs. At the time at least it was posited the benefit
| of China manufacturing was co-location of suppliers and shorter
| supply chains.
|
| edit: [1] lists a BCG report from roughly when I was thinking
| and references a slightly earlier Bloomberg article [2].
|
| Personally, I think China just has much better infrastructure,
| - in general - and specifically manufacturing, export and
| logistics. There's also momentum.
|
| [1] https://www.sellerlabs.com/blog/chinese-manufacturing-
| afford...
|
| [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-04-25/china-
| vs-...
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| I doubt that a modern American worker will give you much
| higher quality than a Chinese worker, and the American will
| be very expensive.
| shapefrog wrote:
| > labor
|
| You may think a Mexican (or a Canadian) is a cheap / poor
| worker - but that is simply because you can not comprehend
| small wage numbers.
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| Chinese GDP/capita is larger than Mexico's now, and wages
| probably reflect that.
|
| China is no longer as attractive to manufacturers as a low-
| wage platform. Its advantages are now more about the local
| supply chain, good infrastructure and local expertise.
| anton_ai wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nf1I0owcC4
| retskrad wrote:
| People love to give Jony Ive and Steve Jobs credit for the iPhone
| but no one gives Tim Cook credit for keep making the iPhone the
| most desirable product in the world in 2022.
| akmittal wrote:
| This comment make it seem like iPhone is suddenly desirable in
| 2022. iPhone has been leader since the beginning, it does take
| effort to stay at top but i wonder credit goes to Tim Cook for
| that.
| kube-system wrote:
| Well, maybe from around 2010-2012 or so. In the first couple
| years, the iPhone was a product looking for a market that
| didn't yet exist.
| dopeboy wrote:
| It takes a massive amount of effort to stay at the top. Yes
| there's inertia and lock-in and walled gardens that
| contribute to folks staying in the apple ecosystem. But that
| doesn't mean it's easy.
| shapefrog wrote:
| A lot of people like to give Leonardo da Vinci credit for the
| Mona Lisa, but no one gives credit to Laurence des Cars
| (President of Louvre) for getting 10million people to visit to
| see it in 2022.
| cypress66 wrote:
| The louvre doesn't repaint the Mona Lisa each year. They
| don't even directly make the exhibitions on rotation that
| keeps people returning.
| saimiam wrote:
| India's timing on "Make in India" couldn't have been more
| fortuitous. The Modi government started hyping Make in India in
| 2019, if memory serves. Nothing came off it for a while until
| things started moving in 2021. And now, by 2022, India seems
| poised to take over some manufacturing from China.
|
| Better lucky than good, I guess.
| akmittal wrote:
| Make in India was hyped most in 2015-2016. It was always
| considered a failure. Recently government introduced PLI and
| DLI schemes which helped get some manufacturing rolling.
| ramshanker wrote:
| I hope they bring the mmWave frequency enabled models to India
| also.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| I wonder what percentage of sales they predict for India. Based
| on population and wealth increases, I'd guess it's a reasonable
| figure even at the lower bounds, which probably factors into
| various decisions.
| akmittal wrote:
| Apple iPhone sales are already growing quite good
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemint.com/news/iphone-sa...
| [deleted]
| osigurdson wrote:
| China is a great country. Just gotta get rid of Xi and the CCP.
| akmittal wrote:
| Much easier said than done
| osigurdson wrote:
| It looks like some of the Chinese have finally had enough.
| Watching these brave folks makes me proud to be human.
| throwaway3268 wrote:
| Apple will end up moving 0% to India. Tiny manufacturing in India
| is a token.
|
| India is a very noisy democracy with absolute freedom of movement
| . Corporate slave labor in tens of thousands impossible in India.
| akmittal wrote:
| Apple has already moved 5-6% in last 2 years.
| black_13 wrote:
| You could move it to the US? Im just saying. To say appalachia?
| boojums wrote:
| I'm not sure why this comment is dead. I certainly would prefer
| that West Virginia get some economic activity besides
| destroying their mountains for coal better left in the ground.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| I thought the same thing. The iPhone is already quite
| expensive. It shot up from an MSRP of around $500 to $1000+ in
| the last 5 years. Clearly the market is willing to pay a large
| sum for the iPhone, and monthly payment schemes/subscription
| programs take away 99% of the sticker price shock (for better
| or for worse).
|
| Considering people will by an iPhone almost no matter the
| price... why not manufacture some in the US, with minimum wage
| jobs and no worker exploitation, and charge $1500 a pop for
| 'made in the USA'?
| nottorp wrote:
| That may get some sales in the US. I doubt the Apple
| customers outside there would be delighted to pay 50% more
| for that label.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| For sure. I wonder if there's an optimization available for
| a company that centralizes manufacturing for each
| continent, minimizing the "ship" and "plane" part of
| shipping costs.
|
| Imagine iPhone factories in West Virginia, Romania, and
| India, to start. I suppose the economics depend on how much
| you can spread out component manufacturing: I know TSMC is
| the only manufacturer even capable of making the top-of-
| the-line iPhone SoCs at this point, but I suspect
| batteries, motherboards, cameras, metal, and glass have a
| little more competition.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| There's not enough people.
|
| Unemployment rates are like 4%, population density is like 115
| people per square mile, and workforce participation is like
| 60%.
|
| That's like ~2.8 per square mile you can employ. That's not
| even ~100,000 people in a 100 mile radius. No way you're going
| to attract 10% of them to work in your factory.
|
| Somewhere like Detroit might be possible - ~4.5M people, 6.1%
| unemployment, ~62% participation = ~170k - a lot with previous
| manufacturing experience.
|
| All that in a ~33 mile radius instead of ~100 mile radius...
| 90d wrote:
| They have a chance to improve things here, but they will just
| recreate the same dystopic work environment. They need bodies not
| change.
| achenatx wrote:
| wish the biden administration would give manufacturers a tax
| break to manufacture in south america. It would enrich our
| neighbors to the south and possibly put a dent in drug
| trafficking and illegal immigration.
|
| Making asia rich doesnt help us nearly as much as making south
| america rich.
| duxup wrote:
| Is South America a viable place to setup this kind of
| manufacturing?
|
| Mexico has a lot of car / parts manufacturing as far as I know
| but beyond that I don't know.
| limitedmage wrote:
| Nokia used to have a big factory in Mexico. Brazil already
| makes iPhones since it's cheaper due to their insane import
| tax.
| ticviking wrote:
| That seems to me like their import tax is working.
|
| I wish more countries had import taxes of this sort, they
| tend to push the nation to be a bit more diversified in
| their economy since they provide air cover for small local
| concerns.
| toast0 wrote:
| > That seems to me like their import tax is working.
|
| Kind of. And you can see it worked for India; they
| started making iPhones there because of the import tax
| and over time are exporting iPhones from India.
|
| But there's a lot of products that aren't big enough to
| justify production in multiple locations, and Brazil
| tends to get those very late, if at all, because the
| import tax makes the prices way too high. Maybe video
| games aren't important, but Brazil has a wildly different
| experience with them than the rest of the world, because
| of the import tax.
|
| Also, I think only the really populous countries can
| manage this style of tax. With smaller countries it's
| easier to accept the loss of sales and avoid the expense
| of local production.
| zip1234 wrote:
| Doesn't really work for small countries.
| duxup wrote:
| Increases the cost for locals though doesn't it?
| FabHK wrote:
| Makes them or assembles them? (Genuine question, ie what
| percentage approx of the value chain is generated there?)
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Doing this, and significantly enriching south America,
| particularly it's tech scene, will dramatically hurt US tech
| worker wages.
|
| South America is in the same timezones as us. A lot of the
| failures of outsourcing are due to time zone differences...
| Havoc wrote:
| Don't think tax breaks are enough to close the gap. Cheap
| labour is...very cheap
| bpicolo wrote:
| Doesn't much of South America have insane import taxes? They'd
| have to solve that first.
| [deleted]
| vsskanth wrote:
| You don't need tax breaks. Free trade agreements are good
| enough. Case in point - Mexico.
| akmittal wrote:
| That wont work in any democracy, how will this be justified to
| the US people. It was difficult enough to fund semiconductor
| manufacturing in US(CHIPS bill).
| boringg wrote:
| Hmm but wouldn't that just flow into the hands of the cartels?
| nixcraft wrote:
| Three hundred thousand workers work at a factory in China to make
| iPhones? I didn't realise how massive the production line is,
| considering they have a 23% market share, and the rest is all
| Android lead by Samsung. I am always surprised that Apple (or
| other Western tech giants) never considered building backup
| factories. Did they never think about geopolitics or natural
| disasters and panamics?
|
| Apart from that iPhone will be cheaper in India because it cuts
| down all import duties, and who knows what other tax/land
| benefits the government of India/State government will provide
| them so that massive employment will be created. So it might help
| India in the long run, provided Indian governments give proper
| support to build these factories, especially in bureaucratic
| policies.
| cm2187 wrote:
| What I am even more puzzled by is the concentration of
| manufacturing of CPUs in Taiwan, which beyond the chinese
| threat, is also an active seismic zone.
| peanuty1 wrote:
| Making chips in Taiwan is just so economical.
| cm2187 wrote:
| Curious about why. It's not a particularly cheap country.
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| Semiconductor manufacturing is a highly specialised
| process. It doesn't rely on the labor being cheap.
|
| Until recently, a good chunk of CPUs were Intel and were
| made in the US.
|
| The Chinese SMIC and Samsung were also making a good deal
| of CPUs.
|
| It's just that only TMSC has the tech to make the higher
| end 5nm chips these days.
| sneak wrote:
| TSMC are the only peolle that can do 4nm at scale, and they
| only do it in Taiwan at present.
|
| It's not like Intel wasn't trying.
| cm2187 wrote:
| But isn't the lithography done by those machines imported
| from the Netherlands?
| the8472 wrote:
| It's not like you shove a blank wafer into the machine
| and finished chips pop out. ASML's machines only do the
| exposure step.
| em500 wrote:
| Apple is selling 250-300m iPhones per year. With seasonal
| variation, there are months where they need to churn out over a
| million iPHones _every day_. Such scales are hard for any human
| to internalize.
| dirtyid wrote:
| I wonder how much assembly fees per device is now. PRC got $8
| per 3G. It's wild to to think the actual assembling of 300M
| units per year doesn't amount to much.
| Cwizard wrote:
| Most of these supply chains basically didn't have backup parts
| and you think they would consider building whole backup
| factories?
| raverbashing wrote:
| > Did they never think about geopolitics or natural disasters
| and panamics?
|
| Not being ironic, apparently those "global MBA" types never
| heard of that. Their world view is probably also on continent-
| level and a couple of countries where labour is cheaper
| qwytw wrote:
| Also it would be irrational to think too much about pandemics
| and other black swan events
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| Giant iPhone factories are already coming up in India around
| Chennai and Bangalore.
|
| > who knows what other tax/land benefits the government of
| India/State government will provide
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_Linked_Incentive_sc...
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| I've been in and around manufacturing for the better part of a
| decade. I've run a small factory myself and have friends and
| family working at all levels of some of the largest factories
| in Europe.
|
| At the scale these things work out there's no way to really
| "have a backup" not in the true sense that backup means. If you
| build a factory you use a factory - otherwise you're wasting
| masses of money.
|
| What you should do is diversify and leave the option to quickly
| (relative terms here, still many months) ramp up production in
| other factories should one have an issue.
|
| Which is what most companies do. Manufacture rewards scale
| though so the diversification comes with its own set of
| problems (usually in logistics and stock management).
|
| So they do think about it for sure but due to the physical
| nature of things it's not a case of "have a backup and decide
| to start going one day at a new location."
| nixcraft wrote:
| That is a thoughtful reply. Working in IT spoiled me, and I
| like having a backup or failover server or data centre but
| for Apple factory. But, it makes sense now, knowing the scale
| of this Apple iPhone factory, it is next to impossible to
| build the backup factory. Thanks!
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| There are aspects of this[1] book that I really enjoyed. I
| have no hardware/factory experience either but I had taken
| some operations research courses in college. In general,
| holding onto inventory more than you need is a waste of
| time, space, cost and introduces other complexities as well
| - like a defect identified even a little bit later in the
| process could lead to huge waste if you're holding on to
| too much. But of course not having any sort of reserve also
| leads to issues.
|
| During the pandemic one of the only car companies that
| didn't have major disruption was Toyota and they were the
| pioneers of this model of operating but they also
| understood the need to keep reserves of critical
| components.
|
| In the case of Apple, they do have a backup plan - the
| lower end models were already being manufactured outside
| China and they could scale that up while they scramble to
| fix the Pro lines.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Process-Ongoing-
| Improvement/dp/0...
| cududa wrote:
| Consider that each new iPhone and iPhone size required
| retooling entire portions of the manufacturing line. And by
| retooling I mean physical tools - the shoots that deliver
| the right sized screw to the individuals assembling that
| part, soldering techniques changing and requiring different
| equipment, spot weld equipment etc.
|
| Building a "backup factory" would also require that massive
| investment every year to revamp the assembly line, and
| never get used.
|
| Then there's the thousands of components that go into an
| iPhone, and their deliver schedules perfected down to 30
| minute windows - you'd have to recreate that, and just
| ship, what, nothing? To the backup factory?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| You don't build a backup factory to sit there unutilized.
|
| You build four large factories instead of one mega
| factory and run all four. Similar number of machines,
| similar investment to update them - each is big enough
| for efficiencies of scale - but if one gets shut down by
| the local government or has a massive fire or there's a
| coup you've still got 3/4 of your production going.
| TrapLord_Rhodo wrote:
| >At the scale these things work out there's no way to really
| "have a backup" not in the true sense that backup means. If
| you build a factory you use a factory
|
| Not really true at all... I mean, if you want to scale, just
| build another line?
|
| I worked on Capex at Tesla and there was explicit talks of
| backup factory's. Elon was always talking about WW3 during
| covid and how we need to massively scale up our operations,
| have backup factorys in every region or we will not make it.
|
| When we had issues scaling our GA3 line in fremont, we cut
| the conveyors off the line, built a tent in the parking lot
| and build a new line in a month. (Granted, 14 hour days every
| single day) but it's generally easier to build a new line
| with the lessons learned than try and fix the old one.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| Appreciate the input. I would say that another line at the
| same location isn't a back up, that's scaling and you can
| choose to run that line or not. It's not uncommon to run a
| second or third line at lesser capacity than the primary
| line (the Nissan plant in Sunderland flex the secondary
| lines a lot for example).
|
| Much of my manufacturing knowledge comes from automotive
| and it's very very very rare to run a literal back up
| factory (as in an unused facility in a different location
| that's good to go to replace another factory). They take so
| much man power to run, so much time to set up that it's not
| economically viable to just have it on standby as a back
| up.
|
| Even if you did there would be masses of business pressure
| to utilise the capacity.
|
| That's why I pointed to diversification instead, Nissan
| make the Qashqai in 3 locations, UK, Russia and Japan (from
| memory) which gives them a level of resilience but they
| aren't back ups.
|
| If Sunderland goes down then Russia and Japan plants can't
| just step up and fill in.
|
| Setting up a new factory for the DBX nearly killed Aston
| Martin (May still do arguably) and that was one being set
| up ti be used. Not sat idle waiting.
| vl wrote:
| Re: Nissan
|
| And, somewhat ironically (do not put production in
| dictatorship countries), Nissan lost one of these
| locations. They sold Russian plant for $1.
| ryanwaggoner wrote:
| The scale here is completely different, and I'd bet on
| Tim's supply chain chops over Elon's every single time.
| bell-cot wrote:
| > ...never considered building backup factories...
|
| How many $billion/year do you figure it'd cost, for Apple to
| build backup (idle) factories for iPhone production? To
| actually be _usable_ , a backup factory can't be a mere
| umpteen-million-dollar huge empty building. You gotta spend
| umpteen more million to fully equip it, then maintain & upgrade
| that equipment to match the "live" factory. And hire and train
| a workforce, and keep their skills up. And then the same for
| some major chunks of your supply chain. Then...
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| > I am always surprised that Apple (or other Western tech
| giants) never considered building backup factories. Did they
| never think about geopolitics or natural disasters and
| panamics?
|
| They'll try to mitigate against issues with the supply chain
| but its very hard to eat the cost of having backup factories or
| using more expensive for something that might only happen every
| few decades or so (or longer)
|
| Adding 5-10% to your product price or taking a hit of 5-10% on
| your profits for 10 years will likely mean you'll lose
| customers or shareholders to your competition long before
| there's another pandemic.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Building backup factories is prohibitive in terms of costs. We
| dont even have much of that for essential products like
| pharmaceuticals.
| dirtyid wrote:
| High import duties likely more than enough to incentivize local
| assembly. Whether India can translate ~10$ assembly per device
| into grabbing rest of supply chain and moving up value chain is
| another question. West somewhat proactively ceded manufacturing
| to PRC, PRC who dominants Apple's supplier list is not going to
| make the same mistake by ceding unrestricted to India,
| preferring instead to spread some capacity in ASEAN where they
| have more influence. IMO countries can only do so much to
| attract, especially when others are reluctant to relinquish.
| ksec wrote:
| >Apart from that iPhone will be cheaper in India because it
| cuts down all import duties,
|
| Your components will still imported. Since India is only doing
| assembly. There might be Tax break for it, so iPhone assembled
| in India will still be cheaper. But Apple will still have to
| pay Import Tax. ( Just like they do with iPhone in China )
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| What I would rather know is where the entire supply chain is.
| What countries contribute what percentage of the finished
| product? You can claim "made in X" if the final assembly is
| there, even if 90% of the value add is in the supply chain not
| located in X.
| TazeTSchnitzel wrote:
| Apple have the budget and the interest to investigate their
| supply chain and provide a good answer to this. Outside sources
| probably don't :/
|
| My uninformed speculation would be that the answer is something
| like 90% China for each hop along the chain, but those
| accumulate. 0.9^n becomes small with large enough n, so
| depending on the viewpoint it might be majority non-China...
| mikymoothrowa wrote:
| it's no where close to 90%
|
| https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-
| Supp...
| verdenti wrote:
| boole1854 wrote:
| > My uninformed speculation would be that the answer is
| something like 90% China for each hop along the chain, but
| those accumulate. 0.9^n becomes small with large enough n, so
| depending on the viewpoint it might be majority non-China...
|
| If the cost allocated to China is 90% at each 'hop along the
| chain', then the total going to China across all hops is 90%,
| not 0.9^n. (This isn't like probability theory -- adding more
| links in the chain doesn't decrease the costs of earlier
| links.)
|
| In any case, I have not found more recent estimates, but in
| 2018 one author estimated that only 3.5% of the manufacturing
| cost could be allocated to China. Their competitive advantage
| is in _final assembly_ , but most of the pricey components
| are sourced elsewhere: https://theconversation.com/we-
| estimate-china-only-makes-8-4...
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