[HN Gopher] Microsoft Is Forcing Me to Buy MacBooks - Windows Mo...
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Microsoft Is Forcing Me to Buy MacBooks - Windows Modern Standby
Author : xbmcuser
Score : 118 points
Date : 2022-12-03 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| ncann wrote:
| I had a Dell laptop that's somewhat recent. It had Modern
| Standby/Connected Standby on by default, so I followed the
| instructions online to disable that and get back normal S3 sleep.
| Things went well until one day after a Windows update Modern
| Standby was turned back on again, and apparently the old way of
| disabling it no longer worked, as MS removed the option in the
| registry. Fine, I grudgingly searched and found a new way to
| disable the stupid thing. Things seemed well initially until I
| realized that the new way of disabling Modern Standby also broke
| Hibernate - my laptop couldn't go into Hibernate anymore (or
| couldn't wake up from Hibernate - I forgot the exact symptom).
|
| I hate Modern Standby with a passion and I wish it a painful
| death.
| OrwellianChild wrote:
| Main takeaway here is: Unplug laptop from power before closing
| the lid. This (theoretically, per the video) will make the
| Windows sleep mode operate correctly without vampire drain from
| network usage.
| pxc wrote:
| If you're a Linux user and you can get S3 support on your
| laptop's firmware, make sure to check out systemd's suspend-then-
| hibernate! It gives you the same behavior as macOS, so your
| laptop will still have good battery capacity if you close it and
| walk away for a whole week. (It's unlikely to feel like truly
| 'instant on' unless you're running an open-source UEFI like
| Coreboot. But S3 resume is still very fast, just a couple seconds
| at most.)
|
| Docs:
|
| https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-sle...
|
| https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-sus...
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Note that suspend-then-hibernate is badly broken in some
| systemd versions. It will always wait until the battery is
| drained to 5% SOC before waking up and trying to hibernate - of
| course, this can easily fail and lead to lost data, plus a
| completely drained battery (with the ensuing wear-and-tear on
| the battery itself). What's especially broken about this is
| that options intended to set a different behavior for
| hibernation are ignored, the 5% threshold is effectively made
| mandatory. Fixes for this issue are apparently ongoing and not
| yet ready for release.
|
| Reference: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/25269
| pxc wrote:
| tl;dr: if you're not on a bleeding edge rolling release, this
| will probably be fixed before the affected versions hit you.
| If not, read below for a summary of what happened, a
| workaround, and a proper fix you can apply as a patch.
|
| God that's annoying as hell. Apparently the Systemd dev who
| added this functionality intended it for a different use case
| than mine or yours. They revised their implementation to
| better serve their original purpose without realizing it
| broke our (mis)use of their feature.
|
| For convenience for anyone running a sufficiently bleeding
| edge distro to have this very latest release already, here's
| a direct link to a comment with a configuration workaround
| which restores the old behavior: https://github.com/systemd/s
| ystemd/issues/25269#issuecomment...
|
| And here's the PR for the formal fix, which combines the old
| behavior (new config value name, read carefully) with that
| new 5% emergency fallback behavior, for folks who want to
| patch it themselves:
|
| https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/25374
|
| It's not merged yet but maintainers have approved it for
| merging with a few comments on config value names, so it
| should be safe to add as a patch.
| bbarnett wrote:
| _Note that suspend-then-hibernate is badly broken in some
| systemd versions_
|
| What?! How could this be??!
| BadBadJellyBean wrote:
| Yes it's awesome. If you just shut the lid for a short time
| it's instant on if you open it again and if you keep it shut
| for longer it goes to hibernate. I think that is the perfect
| compromise. And with new SSDs restore form disk doesn't really
| take long.
| cypress66 wrote:
| Back when I sometimes used a laptop, I had that same feature
| enabled on windows. Is that feature still supported by
| Microsoft?
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Are you talking about hybrid sleep? IIRC that does both
| hibernate and sleep at the same time, i.e. it writes memory
| to disk and then goes to sleep. I guess it would feel roughly
| the same, except:
|
| - unnecessary disk writes (for the times you slept only for a
| short time)
|
| - keeps using battery until power runs out (rather than after
| some interval or at some non-zero battery level)
| chemmail wrote:
| Holy shit this is so bad now, even Macbooks and iPads are not
| immune. I have an older Macbook Air and Pro and the batteries
| both go to 0% in under a month, when they were shut down, don't
| know what they are doing. I also have 2 iPad Pro 11" that just
| drain sitting there, under a week it would be almost dead, i
| didn't even look at them. I thought it was something wrong with
| my iPad at first, but a second one does the exact same thing.
|
| It wasn't always like this. We still use an iPad 2 and 4 for CC
| processing and they don't need to be charged for 2-3 months at a
| time!!! It is definitely on newer devices. I have a Yoga 1 that i
| can have in sleep for almost a month and I can still have it turn
| on with some percentage of battery i can do a few things.
|
| What Microsoft and everyone else it seems, is doing is maddening,
| the batteries are getting worst, and you simply cannot just rely
| on a device to be usable anymore without being next to a power
| outlet and probably even waiting 15minutes before they can even
| power up.
| AaronFriel wrote:
| I've experienced this and arrived at the same solution as Linus'
| team recommends: unplug laptop, then close lid. This worked for
| Dell, HP, and Microsoft Surface branded laptops ever since S0 was
| introduced in Windows 8 or was it 8.1? Either way.
|
| It's even sillier when using a dock with the lid closed: unplug,
| open lid until screen wakes, then close lid.
|
| The real shame here is that the supply chain seems to be moving
| away from supporting S3, as the video notes, with hardware (CPU
| or motherboard) and firmware support disappearing in newer
| models.
| ssdspoimdsjvv wrote:
| I thought my new laptop was broken when I noticed this. Certainly
| this could not have been done intentional. I would close my
| laptop at night and come back the next morning to find out my
| battery was dead (and quite hot). Did some Googling and found out
| this is just how it works nowadays. I then changed my power
| settings to have my computer go into hibernation when I close the
| lid.
|
| WTF Microsoft.
| lizardactivist wrote:
| _" This allows laptops to perform small house-keeping tasks while
| they're asleep"_
|
| - or to be remotely logged on to and operated, without your
| knowing.
|
| A computer system that is on and connected the internet while you
| thought it was turned off, is IMO an attack vector.
| pbnjeh wrote:
| Finally, an explanation.
|
| I don't run around enough to care about quick/instant startup.
| Despite using the Windows 10 Windows menu Power command to "Shut
| down" my Thinkpad X1C6, I took it out of its bag the following
| day, on a few not too infrequent occasions, to find it warm and
| "doing stuff" (Windows Update sticks in my mind). Moreso than a
| lowered charge, the idea of it cooking itself inside its padded
| sleeve and bag caused me concern.
|
| After a bit of investigation, I settled on training myself to
| always open/use a command window to issue "shutdown /s".
|
| No more warm or hot, drained laptop since then.
|
| I agree with Linus: Microsoft's behavior and indifference WRT
| this problem is reprehensible. For me, it is another example of
| how Microsoft has not -- fundamentally -- changed since its E3
| days. The 900 pound gorilla that we will, per force, accommodate.
| Amazing how entrenched such cultural mindsets are.
|
| By the way, the X1C6 as configured by Lenovo does not support S3.
| Since Linus, in his demo of a possible BIOS configuration change,
| was using a Thinkpad, maybe I'll get lucky with that option --
| watch the video to see whether you might have such a fix for your
| system.
| sydney6 wrote:
| I have a ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen6, and indeed there is the
| "Linux" sleep-state option, which has been working for years
| just fine for me. I'm running a Linux-based OS. Before Lenovo
| added this option via bios update (via fwupd:), i indeed had to
| manually manipulate the DSDT to achieve S3 sleep.
| pbnjeh wrote:
| Thank you!
| gtvwill wrote:
| Yeah well apples terrible ethics in business and attitude towards
| proprietary systems and code have ment I've never bought an apple
| device over the last 20 years and I've advised plenty not to and
| it'll keep being like that till apple sort their shit out. Like
| support unions for their workers, not try and lock everything
| behind closed wall systems, not go against the grain of like the
| whole industry just so they can produce a bunch more e-waste like
| the bs lightning ports and kickback against usb-c. Stop making
| unfixable devices, devices bricked because YOLO apple won't make
| a firmware update and refuse to release the code so anyone else
| can update these paperweights (I'm looking at you early gen iPad
| from my parents that just no longer can even browse the web cus
| apple won't update it, it's a 800 buck paperweight now!).
|
| Lol the list can go on, don't even start me on the bs predatory
| business tactics they push with terrible software like iPhoto and
| it's "features".
|
| Apple can get stuffed.no shitty sleep crap on a laptop will make
| me support the dumpster fire of a brand that is apple or reduce
| my morals to do so.
| nickthegreek wrote:
| You seem to have very strong feelings about this topic. You
| could chose Linux, it's not a binary choice.
| replygirl wrote:
| 2023 is the year...
| bamboozled wrote:
| This joke while funny, was old in 1999 and is certainly
| ridiculous now in 2022.
|
| I honestly can't think of there be any reason why one
| wouldn't run Linux on the desktop , it's perfectly fine,
| I'd say excellent for 98% of the tasks I do.
|
| Video editors, designers and photographers probably
| struggle a bit but I'd say nearly all of those people use a
| Mac anyway. I have both myself. Linux and an iPad Pro.
| autotune wrote:
| There is still the problem of gaming. With tools like
| CrossOver from CodeWeavers and shadow.tech things are
| getting better as well as some native support on Steam,
| but at this point I still need a dedicated Windows
| desktop specifically for gaming and nothing else (I use a
| MacBook Pro for personal projects, work, and Alpine for
| Docker to run production services at work).
| goosedragons wrote:
| Besides anti-cheat gaming just mostly works these days on
| Linux. It's pretty nuts how much it's improved with
| things like Proton.
| autotune wrote:
| I'll have to look into it again. I am still scarred from
| the early days of trying to get a given Linux distro
| working painlessly on the laptop.
| the_third_wave wrote:
| You're 30 years late as far as I'm concerned, SLS on tape
| followed by Slackware followed by RedHat followed by Debian
| in an unbroken line. OK, I was editor for a unix-related
| publication which gave me an extra incentive but on the
| desktop (and laptop, an anaemic Toshiba with a black and
| white sluggish LCD, 4 MB of RAM but quite a good keyboard,
| no mouse because that wasn't a thing yet) it did run ever
| since then.
| em-bee wrote:
| heh, i followed the same trajectory, except starting with
| SLS on floppies and after debian i tried ubuntu and then
| worked with foresight before switching to fedora...
| tstrimple wrote:
| For what it's worth, this is the year I've stuck with a
| Linux desktop the longest. Thanks to the work from Valve,
| even modern game releases have been playing reliably for
| me. Linux still has plenty of issues, but it's been a very
| stable platform so far and that's even with me torturing
| myself by using NixOS.
| Kukumber wrote:
| both apple and microsoft are bad, and yet apple managed to make
| a better laptop, cherry on the top, with ARM!
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Microsoft does not really pretend to be good
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| It is surprising how long some things can survive beyond
| their due date. As a parallel; everyone knew the Soviet
| system was rubbish, beyond fixing, but stuck with a
| shrugging, de-facto acceptance of something nobody believed
| in and couldn't change. It was the momentum of stubborn
| ideology and resignation that kept it going. To me,
| Microsoft represent a similar failure mode unique to
| capitalism, where pure momentum of accumulated capital can
| prop up a dead company. In their heyday Microsoft were so
| successful and made so much money that today a mixture of
| memories, brand nostalgia and bought influence can keep the
| show going despite an abysmal product.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| In the consumer market that is probally true
|
| Microsoft is still king of Enterprise because of vertical
| integration, centralized management / security tooling,
| and Microsoft Excel (which really has no competitor)
|
| Linux and Apple both lack the centralized end point
| management / identity / and configuration that AD, Azure
| AD, Group Policy, ConfigMgr, etc offer for the windows
| platform
| Kukumber wrote:
| They do pretend to be good when they lobby European and
| other foreign governments or when they bribe them [1,2,3,4]
|
| [1] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-
| settlement-idUS...
|
| [2] - https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/25/microsoft_accu
| sed_of_...
|
| [3] - https://emerging-europe.com/news/microsoft-
| pays-25-million-u...
|
| [4] - https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/microsoft-
| accused...
| sydney6 wrote:
| I don't even understand why Microsoft is forcing S0ix this hard,
| i.e. as i understand, forcing OEMs to remove the option for S3
| via certification programmes, etc. Suspend/Resume is painful
| enough as is, with Thunderbolt devices on a picky pcie-connection
| and else, even with their "improvements".. What a state of
| affairs. Half an hour ago, my AMD Desktop freezed from
| suspend/resume due to a Mellanox ConnectX-3 NIC not properly
| resuming/entering from sleep. Gotta try to reduce the allocated
| tx/rx-rings from the kernel module, surely, then everything will
| be, must be good to go. Oh, well..
| zootboy wrote:
| > I don't even understand why Microsoft is forcing S0ix this
| hard
|
| Because for whatever inexplicable reason, they've gotten it
| into their heads that laptops need to achieve feature parity
| with smartphones. Smartphones get to be always-on, so laptops
| apparently need to as well.
|
| It's completely ridiculous, and I'm quite upset at Microsoft
| for continually trying to destroy the PC ecosystem in new and
| creative ways.
| sydney6 wrote:
| Microsoft has a lot of insight about the Windows ecosystem
| works and crashes, and i'm even willing to believe that
| there's some sane technical reasoning behind all this.
| Perhaps the state of S3 is indeed this FUBAR, let's not
| forget, that MS cannot control the windows ecosystem like
| apple does with MacOS. MS has no/very little power over OEMs
| not conforming or only partly implementing standards, and yet
| has to deal with whatever hardware customers stick into their
| ~2 billion windows installations.
| leros wrote:
| I had a similar issue with my MacBook and the fix was even
| sillier. I plug my MacBook into a USB-C monitor, which also
| supplies power. Upgrading the monitor firmware fixed my MacBook
| sleep issues.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| The way Apple typically writes its support for third party
| devices assumes strict adherence to the spec in question, with
| funny things happening when they don't. Totally different
| philosophy from MS where writing in hacks to accommodate badly
| behaving/out of spec peripherals is just another Tuesday.
|
| With that in mind it's not too surprising that a display
| firmware update fixed your problem.
| rPlayer6554 wrote:
| I've had this exact issue with my Dell XPS13 and it pushed me to
| move to a MacBook.
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