[HN Gopher] A German experiment that placed foster children with...
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A German experiment that placed foster children with pedophiles
(2021)
Author : type0
Score : 89 points
Date : 2022-12-03 17:51 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newyorker.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.newyorker.com)
| at_a_remove wrote:
| Forgive me, this is off the cuff and a bit meandering. This
| article has provoked a feeling which I have, while often thought
| of, never attempted to put down in concrete terms.
|
| Contexually, whenever someone starts going on about Nazis and how
| it led to _this_ undesirable outcome or another, I have begun to
| flash back to a book I read called _Voluptuous Panic_ , which
| detailed the post-WWI era in Germany in terms of how crushed
| underfoot the Germans were, how devoid they were of men (who had
| largely been killed in the war) and how the country ended up in
| this mind-boggling debt, the economy was razed, and finally how
| the survivors were so desperate that their service economy often
| revolved around prostitution and degradation.
|
| The section on child prostitution is just staggering because it
| indicates a kind of protracted development of the "tastes" of
| pedophiles run absolutely wild, given license to indulge. Other
| abhorrent things are discussed in the book, but that was really
| the lowest of the bunch. One of the _Sin Cities_ series
| documentary also explores Berlin of that era, although through
| rose-tinted glasses.
|
| In any case, it's rather easy to see that after being ground into
| the muck like that, the people were ready to embrace almost
| anyone who promised something more _clean_ than what they had
| been subjected to. And of course someone comes along, they always
| will.
|
| But we ended up doing something notionally similar after WWII:
| more grinding of the Germans (this time through division,
| sanctions, etc), who seem to be now indoctrinated with a spirit
| of self-abnegation, as if the Germans of today (the locally born
| sort, naturally) must offer themselves up as some kind of
| sacrifice to repent of the sins of previous generations. Why, to
| prevent fascism we must destroy ... almost everything? The
| nuclear family, the "oppression of children's sexuality," and so
| on. And so the whole thing is a perverse echo of the previous
| post-World War episode, wherein the sentiment is that almost
| everything must be unmade if only to prevent the mistakes of the
| past ... _which hardly worked the last time around_. And so
| academics make a lot of high-sounding noise about restructuring
| and sexuality and deconstructing things, nevermind Chesterson 's
| fence.
|
| I'm starting to see ghastly echoes of this sort of thing as "MAP"
| ("minor-attracted persons," supplanting _pedophile_ on the
| euphemism treadmill) becomes an acronym I see more and more often
| here in the U.S., and the usual academics begin coming up with
| bloodless jargon describing their activities.
|
| If I had to pick a new mortal sin, I would say that inculcating
| someone, or a group of people, with a kind of spirit of self-
| loathing, a wish to erase one's own existence to extirpate a
| grievance that did not originate _with_ that person high on the
| list. Once you have done this, you can lead them into the basest
| acts; nothing is off the table. And so the almighty prevention of
| fascism, the new Highest Good, leads to _this_ kind of behavior,
| approved and encouraged even by government and scholars, who will
| have largely retired or died by the time any kind of momentum for
| justice will gather.
| archon1410 wrote:
| Voluptuous Panic had a section on "Wild-Boys", hypersexual
| BDSM-style roving gangs of teenagers. This and other
| characteristics of "Weimar degeneracy" were often discussed on
| 4chan's /pol/, by white nationalists who often came there to
| spread their word I assume. Seeing such a mention is what led
| me to a rabbit hole, I later wrote a short Wikipedia article on
| Mel Gordon, the writer of that work.
|
| Apparently pedaresty was something treated on par with
| homosexuality those days[1]--Oscar Wilde was a pedarest, now
| remembered more for the "homosexuality trial". Many prominent
| writers, artists and such engaged in it, without much
| consequence. Perhaps Weimar was a bit more extreme, but the
| attitude seen there wasn't limited to Weimar alone. It was only
| much later that pedaresty was fully decoupled from
| homosexuality. If I remember correctly, NAMBLA was a member of
| the international LGBT alliance until the 1990s.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6771704
| KrugerDunnings wrote:
| Is the MAP problem a real documented social phenomena or just a
| type of satanic scare? I understand it is researched as a topic
| in sociology like the Sambari people that practice ritualised
| homosexuality by having boys injest semen but that doesn't mean
| people are trying to make it socially acceptable. Honestly I
| can't think of a less unacceptable thing.
| wellthatsawrap1 wrote:
| Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? https://mobile.twi
| tter.com/Yolo304741/status/159698131353350...
| dang wrote:
| We've banned this account for using HN primarily for
| ideological battle.
|
| Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| 867-5309 wrote:
| *Simbari people, pre-Sexual Revolution practices
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simbari_people#Traditional_pra.
| ..
|
| (not an easy read - discretion advised)
| tptacek wrote:
| There really is a fringe of people, some of them recently
| accepted in polite society, who attempted to normalize the
| term "MAP" (none of them publicly condoned pedophilia; their
| ostensible aim was to destigmatize non-offending people with
| minor attractions, which was why the term was invented --- to
| distinguish people who happened to feel disordered urges from
| people who actually preyed on children). "Prostasia" was
| (is?) one of the big names here.
|
| But a fringe is all it was. If you go looking for mainstream
| uses of the term "MAP", you're unlikely to find many. If you
| go looking for a movement to rename the _practice_ of
| pedophilia, I 'm even more confident you'll come up empty.
| [deleted]
| gnfargbl wrote:
| _> as if the Germans of today [...] must offer themselves up as
| some kind of sacrifice to repent of the sins of previous
| generations._
|
| This isn't a new phenomenon. Regan was criticized in 1985 for
| expressing similar views --
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitburg_controversy -- albeit
| in a way which was either politically clumsy or extremely
| offensive to the victims of Nazism, depending on your
| viewpoint.
| yterdy wrote:
| I see what you're getting at, and no, speaking frankly and
| truthfully about America's history of racial discrimination and
| persecution, as well as its history of other forms of
| mainstreamed/institutionalized bigotry, in classrooms and the
| media is not degradation that will lead to widespread cultural
| debasement and pedophilia.
|
| To be clear, that is what parent is dog-whistling.
| kaashif wrote:
| > I'm starting to see ghastly echoes of this sort of thing as
| "MAP" ("minor-attracted persons," supplanting pedophile on the
| euphemism treadmill) becomes an acronym I see more and more
| often here in the U.S., and the usual academics begin coming up
| with bloodless jargon describing their activities.
|
| Despite living in the US and being one of those terminally
| online people who spend too much time on HN and Reddit, your
| comment is the first time I've ever seen the term "MAP" in my
| life.
|
| I don't know what academics you're talking about, and I think I
| probably occupy an almost disjoint bubble from them. I don't
| read psychology papers or wherever that kind of stuff is found.
|
| What you're describing is disturbing and I hope it's not
| happening. I can't discount the possibility that I'm just out
| of touch with the places or communities where it is happening
| though.
| 5555624 wrote:
| >Despite living in the US and being one of those terminally
| online people who spend too much time on HN and Reddit, your
| comment is the first time I've ever seen the term "MAP" in my
| life.
|
| I first saw it a year ago, in The Washington Post, with
| regards to an ODU professor [1] I've seen it on both Fox News
| and/or CNN, as well.
|
| Recently, it was in the news because a Texas teacher was
| fired, "Stop calling them that. You're not allowed to label
| people like that. Stop it, Diego," the teacher can be heard
| saying in the video. "We are not going to call them that.
| We're going to call them MAPs. Minor Attracted Persons. So
| don't judge people just because they want to have sex with a
| 5-year-old." [2]
|
| [1]
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/11/24/allyn-
| wa... [2] https://www.insider.com/texas-teacher-faces-
| termination-a-vi...
| tptacek wrote:
| The WaPo article you cite is about a professor who was
| ousted in part for using the term. It uses the term "minor-
| attracted person" exclusively in quotes; it uses the term
| "pedophile" in quotes once, in a sentence _about the word_
| , but otherwise uses it naturally. It is not reasonable to
| take from that WaPo article the notion that "MAP" is an
| accepted term.
|
| You can easily search WaPo and find that the term "MAP" is
| used only in that article (again: about the term, and the
| fact that it cost someone their job), and that WaPo
| routinely uses the term "pedophile", quoting it only in
| stories where the allegations are ridiculous (like people
| reporting dads at playgrounds as suspected "pedophiles").
|
| The Washington Post is a pretty powerful data point that
| the term "MAP" is not in fact in common use. It seems
| extraordinarily unlikely that it ever will be.
|
| (So far as I can tell, the New York Times has never once
| used the term, either).
| wellthatsawrap1 wrote:
| skilled wrote:
| https://archive.ph/v88RS
| [deleted]
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| Another name comes to mind
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cohn-Bendit
|
| Not directly related to this case, but as part of the political
| climate which enables such things.
| Eleison23 wrote:
| formerly_proven wrote:
| It's never too late to graduate out of the sewer, you know.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site
| guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Sorry.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Project harder?
| churchill wrote:
| No, I want him to go ahead: I want to hear the mental
| gymnastics people use to defend pedophilia.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site
| guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dang wrote:
| Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site
| guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dang wrote:
| We've banned this account for posting flamewar comments and
| ignoring our request to stop.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| VictorPath wrote:
| I have to laugh about all these comments talking about the left
| and pedophilia, as if conservative religious organizations are
| not rife with child molestation.
| zenogantner wrote:
| Why even "the left"? When Marco from the article was put into
| foster care, both West Berlin and West Germany had conservative
| governments.
| luckylion wrote:
| Mostly because the idea that children are sexual and can
| consent to sex was carried by movements and organizations
| that later became the German Green party. They're socially
| progressive (and economically center-left, I'd say, but
| clearly much less on the left spectrum about economic issues)
| and are generally considered to be part of "the left".
|
| Helmut Kentler, the psychologist mentioned in the article,
| was also generally considered to be part of "the left".
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Isn't that whataboutism ?
| luckylion wrote:
| Prepare to wait for another 30 years until this can be openly and
| honestly discussed in Germany: until the perpetrators and their
| then-allies are all dead.
|
| At the moment, it's in a weird state. Everybody knows it, you can
| talk about it, but you mustn't go too far, and you mustn't ask
| for consequences, as many of those who where involved then in the
| propagation of pedophilia are still in positions of power in
| politics, academia and the press.
|
| I was sent to an after school children's place that was founded
| with the same principles of sexual hyper-openness. While I'm not
| aware of any abusive actions against myself, every child knew
| that some of the staff were too eager to "play" and "show and
| tell". Others were great people to have around children, but the
| ideology (in these progressive circles) at the time made it far
| too easy for actual pedophiles to hide in plain sight, and far
| too hard for anyone to sound the alarm, as they'd be called a
| prude and excluded.
| wellthatsawrap1 wrote:
| fakedang wrote:
| My German fiancee and her relatives would often be told by
| their elders during their childhood to stay away from certain
| teachers at school and certain church priests for exactly this
| reason. Seems Germany has a very underlying disease when it
| comes to children's safety.
| lm28469 wrote:
| Same thing in France, in the 80s we had pro pedophilia
| militants on TV, talking about lowering age of consent, about
| sexually educating kids (1-6 years old), how pedophilia and
| homosexuality were similar and as such pedophilia shouldn't
| be illegal, &c. it mostly came from left wing philisophers
| and academicians who wanted to go further with the "sexual
| revolution" of the 60s/70s and somehow were either blinded by
| their ideals or pedophiles themselves
|
| For the past decade or so more and more people are starting
| to talk about systemic rapes and sexual assaults in the
| church too
| SrithranHi wrote:
| dang wrote:
| You can't do this here, and we've banned the account.
|
| Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| luckylion wrote:
| It's an issue with an ideological movement developing out of
| the hippie movement, please don't try to make this about
| Jews, you'll only derail what little discussion can be had.
| burgerzzz wrote:
| mansion7 wrote:
| churchill wrote:
| In case anyone is wondering, the Rotherham (Yorkshire,
| UK) scandal refers to a British-Pakistani child sexual
| abuse gang that abused 1,400 kids from the 1980s to 2013.
|
| The abuse included gang rape, forcing children to watch
| rape, dousing them with petrol and threatening to set
| them on fire, threatening to rape their mothers and
| younger sisters, as well as trafficking them to other
| towns. There were pregnancies (one at age 12), pregnancy
| terminations, miscarriages, babies raised by their
| mothers, in addition to babies removed, causing further
| trauma.
|
| Why did the local politicians and police authorities do
| absolutely nothing although they knew for years?
|
| They just wanted them to shut up for the sake of
| diversity. No one wanted to sound the alarm that these
| evil men from Kashmir and Pakistan were systematically
| abusing kids because they didn't want to sound racist.
|
| More info: wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_expl
| oitation_scandal
|
| It's appalling the amount of mental gymnastics modern
| "progressives" can engage in to explain away evil.
| hannob wrote:
| > Everybody knows it, you can talk about it, but you mustn't go
| too far, and you mustn't ask for consequences, as many of those
| who where involved then in the propagation of pedophilia are
| still in positions of power in politics, academia and the
| press.
|
| Can you name a single person in power in politics, academia and
| the press _today_ in Germany that was involved in any of this?
| (Closest I can think of are some politicians who are past their
| career end and have no official position today.)
| luckylion wrote:
| Daniel Cohn-Bendit is one of the most prominent ones who was
| also very open about his stance back then. I think he's no
| longer MEP, but he's still a powerful player (much like a
| president or chancellor doesn't lose all of his power when
| the stops being the president). There are many more, I know a
| few at the local level in the city I grew up in, but they
| (like most, I assume) weren't people you'd know beyond the
| city.
|
| Active and complete uncovering would hurt them & their
| parties/platforms/organizations today, providing plenty of
| incentive to keep the topic out of the spot light. It's not
| that they can stop discussion and investigations (they're not
| _that_ powerful), but it 's like a criminal case: outsiders
| investigating can only draw a very rough picture, and will
| only see so much.
|
| With today's tribal situation, people look at everything
| through the lens of "how will this affect my tribe?". When
| the people involved are no longer around and sufficient time
| has passed, this equation changes and shifts from "I will
| lose the next election if this is a major topic" to something
| for the historians (at least that's what I expect, but it'll
| take a few more decades).
| VictorPath wrote:
| > Prepare to wait for another 30 years until this can be openly
| and honestly discussed in Germany: until the perpetrators and
| their then-allies are all dead.
|
| In 1977, a date the article mentions, the president of the
| Confederation of German Employers Associations was a former SS
| Untersturmfuehrer. The BND was founded by former SS/SDers under
| Gehlen. Talk about waiting years to discuss openly.
| lapcat wrote:
| (2021)
| dang wrote:
| Added - thanks. Turns out there was a previous thread too:
|
| _The German Experiment That Placed Foster Children with
| Pedophiles_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27889476 -
| July 2021 (26 comments)
| spookie wrote:
| I really hope that our society won't continue to turn a blind eye
| to these cases. From this, to the church, and beyond real life.
| I'm really sad for what has been happening on the internet, the
| necessity for kids to be exposed on such an open and risky
| environment, from such an young age. I don't want to prohibit my
| children from accessing the internet, nor stalk them. But, I've
| seen myself in VR chat, how these people are able to corner kids,
| and progressively doing more and more disturbing interactions.
| mc32 wrote:
| It's sad to see two things:
|
| >Experts having total unquestioned control (and being able to
| veto and stop investigations)
|
| >The state being derelict in its duty to protect children in
| foster care.
|
| >In addition the psychological manipulation and neutering the
| kids' sense of worth and self.
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