[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Getting up after repeated failures?
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Ask HN: Getting up after repeated failures?
This post probably won't be well accepted in the Hacker News
community since it's come out as more of a rant, but I don't really
care anymore. So Hacker News, I'm 30. Not super old, but I've got
a good decade in the software world under my belt to a large
variety of all the garbage there is to see. My first job was at a
medium sized corp, and after about 3 years, I left to escape the
typical pain points of corporate life (slow / no projects, lazy /
unmotivated coworkers obviously there only for the paycheck, too
much red tape and processes, etc., etc., etc....) I then joined a
small company, where we built what in my mind was a next gen
e-commerce shop (real time product stock checks, multiple currency
support, etc.) only to have the project (a 1.5 year project, mind
you) not be payed for and then in the end scraped for a shittier
one (MUCH shittier, the site they arrived at looks like 2001, and
many features are missing, its amazing you can even get through the
checkout process). After leaving that company, I joined a startup
which was initially marketed to me as very fast growing, with a
$__M valuation, and well funded. They offered me a 3% stake, which
I thought was a lot. I'd also be the full owner of the tech stack
here. All factors combined (tech ownership and stake), I took the
job. Fast forward another 1.5 years: I built dozens of new features
for this app, a payment system (TWICE, because the founders didn't
know what the hell they wanted), and much more. Now today the
engineers have to go on "pause" because there is not enough funding
and funding opportunities are rapidly drying up. "But don't worry!
We can hire you out to some other XYZ company for a few months
while we get our act together because we are stupid!" I could
hardly contain my rage when I heard this, I didn't sign up for this
shit, if I wanted to be a consultant, I would have done it myself.
I'm sick of being lied to and cheated by clowns who have the
tiniest sliver of the tech and app building experience (not to
mention the wisdom / foresight / knowhow) I have, only to end up
back where I started in approximately 2 year cycles. _Every single
time_ I have held up on my end, putting in the hours, producing
quality, shippable product, only to get a pile of shit in return.
What's the point of giving my good faith and hard work if it has
NEVER once been returned to me? I was raised as a respectful and
hardworking individual, and went on to university and learned how
to be an ethical and responsible engineer, all of which I've taken
to heart. But over and over again the world of idiotic, confused,
and greedy business clowns beat my spirit down. I've even had
notions to leave software entirely and find some other career path.
Indeed, I'll admit, it's partially my fault, I consistently buy
into the dreamer mentality before fullying doing my research, but I
think that is in a bit of all us hackers, and it's a hard feeling
to ignore. (At least for me) The _one_ shining star for me in all
this was a period of 5 months between the e-commerce and startup
fiascos where I was working for myself - I created a ~$50-100 MRR
SaaS product, published some courses, youtube videos, and blog
posts. The problem is I didn 't make enough money right away and I
had to scramble back to find a job. (Though now the time spent from
those short 5 months has led to approximately $400-600 MRR total)
Anyway, I've got half a mind to just go fully indy, I'm just
worried I won't make enough money fast enough, and I'll be back
where I started, working for some goon company with clueless
C-levels and processes fettered with incompetence. So HN, what do
I do here? Is this just the reality of software life? Or am I just
facing burnout? Should I expect repeated beat downs and failures
like this forever? Really getting sick of the whole thing. I just
feel stuck.
Author : fullstackchris
Score : 18 points
Date : 2022-12-02 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
| tracerbulletx wrote:
| This attitude is a disease that a lot of software engineers have.
| If only everyone else wasn't so stupid, if only there were no
| politics, and no lying business people! Then I could design the
| perfect system and be successful and my beautiful software would
| realize its true potential. If you really want to succeed you
| absolutely must learn to be pragmatic about sales, and business
| and politics and people. The world is run on narratives and
| stories and lies and faith and emotion and all kinds of illogical
| things engineers don't like. You also must also stop thinking
| about things in terms of success and failure, there's not really
| any such thing except in our heads and in the way we present
| ourselves to others, only your attitude and what you are doing
| today matter. Also in a week you might wake up and find out you
| have cancer and you will just be sick for the rest of your life
| and never work on anything ever again, forget about the past,
| forget about the stress and feeling of being angry or unjustly
| treated and just be who you want to be today, and make everyone
| else believe it too.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| > there's not really any such thing except in our heads
|
| I disagree. When my father's used car lot went under, that was
| a massive failure of planning and leadership, sending my family
| into a financial spiral with effects felt for decades. There
| was no upside here. Hell, he ended up in jail briefly as a
| result of the debacle. There's definitely such a thing as
| failure.
|
| That said, I agree that the poster's mindset seems to be doing
| them no favors here. Sounds like they've always been paid,
| they've done good work, they've broadened and deepened their
| engineering experience. As long as they can still find a job
| there are worse things than this kind of failure.
| fullstackchris wrote:
| > Also in a week you might wake up and find out you have cancer
| and you will just be sick for the rest of your life and never
| work on anything ever again, forget about the past, forget
| about the stress and feeling of being angry or unjustly treated
| and just be who you want to be today, and make everyone else
| believe it too.
|
| this hit hard, and for me it just proves how much harder i
| should work on things I care about, and not what the next clown
| wants me to accomplish for them
| codegeek wrote:
| Good rant but seems like you already have your answer. You have
| been able to create a ~$500 MRR SAAS which a lot of great devs
| cannot/will not. Indie hacking is your way to your freedom it
| seems like.
|
| "I'm just worried I won't make enough money fast enough, and I'll
| be back where I started, working for some goon company with
| clueless C-levels and processes fettered with incompetence"
|
| Define fast enough. If you can create $500 MRR in 5 months, is
| that not fast enough for you ?
|
| You do need to let go of the bitterness and the fact that you
| failed to hit big with startups (most startups fail). You will be
| ok. Figure out your goals and go from there.
| barbariangrunge wrote:
| You need some small wins. Even video games at first, then
| something slightly more ambitious, and keep adding on until you
| feel ready for another big challenge. Every single step is scary
| so just make it a bunch of smaller steps and it's easier to go
| from rock bottom to super productive again
|
| Also: you might need rest before you dive in. But try to make it
| rest plus some tiny empowering step that you have control over.
| Eg, making the bed, going to the gym, keeping a room tidy, being
| on time for things
| mindwok wrote:
| I think you should stop being so hard on yourself first. Reading
| this, to me you're clearly someone with the capability to work in
| high pressure environments and deliver things under difficult
| circumstances. That's a very rare and valuable skill. The bad
| parts of your post come down to two things: you've been unlucky,
| working for people and companies that have potential but aren't
| realised due to to factors outside your control. Or, you're bad
| at identifying opportunities that will pay off. Sounds to me like
| you can work on developing those skills, but it's up to you if
| you want to keep rolling the dice on start ups or settle for a
| comfy job at a big company.
| brailsafe wrote:
| Were you paid? If so, then as that one guy put it, you and the
| company are even. Yes, that's the reality of the software life,
| and yes you're either on your way or already burnt out.
|
| The other reality, is the majority of software work doesn't end
| up mattering in the long run, or even in the short run, and you
| need to come to terms with the reality that you're exchanging
| your time for a salary and maybe some equity, but don't get your
| hopes up, it's just a job like others. Nobody is really changing
| the world, and it's a lie that we bought 12 years ago when we got
| into it. You can work on something that improves someone's
| workflow marginally though, and that can be satisfying. It's way
| way more satisfying to just get the work done and then have great
| interactions out in the real world with people you meet. I
| recently helped a Taiwanese immigrant get their passport, and I
| started my day by playing an mmo with some friends, now I'm back
| to coding whatever.
|
| The other other reality, is that a lot of that time even if the
| product or website or company is worthwhile and sells stuff, it's
| often not the "features" or the fancy frontend that people care
| about. That's why Rockauto for example is so awesome, and look
| where you're posting right now.
|
| It's probably worthwhile to go independent, but the same things
| apply, except you'd now have a real stake.
| theGnuMe wrote:
| Startups are lottery tickets. Just keep building products quickly
| and iterate. A lot of it is finding MVP which it sounds like
| hasn't happened yet.
|
| So go more meta on the process. Ask why you are deciding to
| choose these companies etc... It is easy to put the blame on
| others but not always helpful to our own personal growth.
|
| You have to embrace failure (of the product) and move on. Embrace
| uncertainity. You built some great software and learnt a lot so
| much so that next time you can build faster.
|
| If you want stability, join a larger company and do your side
| hustle programming.
|
| That's really all there is.
|
| There's no magic destiny or guarantees. Find joy and life in the
| work.
| [deleted]
| walleeee wrote:
| > I'm sick of being lied to and cheated by clowns
|
| Then don't work for them. Don't apply to startups building yet
| another ecommerce site. You can find a job writing code for
| something that won't evaporate next year, they're out there. You
| now know what to avoid, avoid it.
| jmfldn wrote:
| Sorry to hear all this. Honestly, given what you've gone through,
| I'd just avoid the start ups and go for 'boring tech', in an
| unambiguously useful and established industry. Maybe energy,
| telecoms, banking etc. Go for a well established company but one
| with a good stack and modern ways of working. They do exist. You
| can have a good engineering culture and engaging projects,
| combined with a stable business model and sane management.
|
| Startups are high reward potentially because they're high risk.
| And a lot of these companies are doomed-to-fail, snake oil-
| peddlers. Choose carefully if you do carry on down that path.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Ugh. Yeah, it does sound kinda burnout-y, sure.
|
| In your shoes I'd probably design a specification & system to get
| what you want. Starting with questions like: How would you know
| you're applying at the type of company you want to work at? How
| could you find that out before accepting a position? If things
| don't turn out the way you want, how could you turn your critic-
| voice into a grounded, solutions-oriented voice as soon as
| possible, to regain control?
|
| And on the independent side, what's the minimum you need to make
| to survive?
|
| Additionally, putting those together, what kind of PT or FT
| employment runway might you need--how long would you need to work
| & how much would you need to save, as a launch-to-independence
| stage?
|
| Caveat, you'd probably need to get into the details, which will
| require a rested, patient mindset.
|
| You are already forecasting in your post, which is generally
| automatically based on your past experience. But the future will
| have to be different. This means you'll need a lot of trust in
| yourself, more than you may have right now, for any kind of
| progress to feel good.
|
| A lot of little successes are needed from here. And a more
| objective self-trust system based on new experiences &
| accomplishments may need to be designed, constructed, experienced
| going forward.
|
| As a coach myself I'd generally grade your success from here
| based on how much of this ends up in something like a milestone-
| focused schedule or spreadsheet that you are actively using,
| revising, & sharing for accountability on a weekly basis. IOW,
| subjective mental reflections are not on their own generally
| reliable for a challenging process like this. Emotions will tend
| to creep in at the wrong times unless objective measurements are
| the mainstay.
|
| I would also try other objective-ish methods, e.g. any journaling
| should be done in the third person before using first person.
|
| BTW It may also be important to build your own system of getting
| recognition for your contributions, no matter where you're
| working. This is very much a thing and IIRC some articles along
| those lines have been posted here. Get what you deserve.
|
| Good luck from here, however this goes for you.
| codingdave wrote:
| > lazy / unmotivated coworkers obviously there only for the
| paycheck
|
| You are correct that this is a problem, but there is a different
| flavor of that scenario that really works: Competent coworkers
| with solid work ethics who are there only for the paycheck.
|
| Find a group like that and you don't have people trying to make
| work into a family, nor the startups acting like they'll change
| your world if not the entire world. You get people who go to
| work, do it well, then go home. It makes a great team and a great
| working environment that also lets you live your life. And such
| teams tend to produce working software in a working market
| because if either of those were not true, the paychecks would not
| be stable so the team would leave. So when you find such a team,
| join it -- you will all get paid reliably with stable work on a
| stable team.
| greatpostman wrote:
| You just need to get it in your head, either work for yourself or
| don't work for a startup. You probably will never come out ahead
| working on someone else's dream. Be a founder or work for an
| established tech company.
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(page generated 2022-12-02 23:02 UTC)