[HN Gopher] Tales of the M1 GPU
___________________________________________________________________
Tales of the M1 GPU
Author : rawrenstein
Score : 975 points
Date : 2022-11-29 16:50 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (asahilinux.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (asahilinux.org)
| kubb wrote:
| I can hardly think of a better recommendation of Rust for kernel
| development than this.
| fareesh wrote:
| I've never played games on my M1 Macbook - what are some popular
| reasonably graphics intensive games that it would support? Could
| it run Dota2 for example?
| rpastuszak wrote:
| Disco Elysium, Hades and CIV VI run really well on my MBA m1
| (using a 4K display). These games are not as resource heavy as
| Dota2 AFAIK but I'm comparing them to my maxed out 16inch MBP
| from 2020 which acted more like a cursed semi sentient toaster
| than a hi spec laptop.
| tingol wrote:
| Dota 2 runs pretty great.
| drooopy wrote:
| Resident Evil Village recently came out and it performs
| surprisingly well even on the low end MacBook Air M1 with only
| 7 GPU cores. What's even more impressive is that the game is
| playable (low gfx settings, 30fps) when running that machine on
| low power mode.
| helf wrote:
| The fact so much hardware these days is running a full real-time
| OS all the time annoys me. I know it is normal and understandable
| but everything is such a black box and it has already caused
| headaches (looking at you, Intel).
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Every cell in your body is running a full blown OS fully
| capable of doing things that each individual cell has no need
| for. It sounds like this is a perfectly natural way to go about
| things.
| Retric wrote:
| Mature mammalian red blood cells ditch their DNA, which is
| one reason they don't live very long.
| ralfd wrote:
| Did dinosaur / do reptilian blood cells live longer?
| Retric wrote:
| No idea about dinosaurs but some reptilian red blood
| cells live much longer as in 500+ days for turtles vs 120
| for humans. However, it varies widely with mice and
| chickens having much faster turnover. https://www.science
| direct.com/science/article/pii/S000649712...
|
| Five species of salamanders have similar enucleated red
| blood cells, but I can't find out how long they last in
| comparison. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18328681/
|
| One theory is it's an adaption to having unusually large
| genomes which would otherwise be an issue, but biology is
| odd so who knows.
| lazide wrote:
| For one, it makes them much harder to be used as viral
| vectors.
| glitchc wrote:
| I think that's the reason why mammals evolved in this
| way. Red blood cells go everywhere, and I mean
| everywhere, in your body. Most other cells can't get
| close enough.
| robbiep wrote:
| Those from birds which are nucleated last about 30-40
| days compared to 120 in us so no
| speed_spread wrote:
| Not with that attitude
| helf wrote:
| I didn't know this. That is fascinating!
| koheripbal wrote:
| Organic units should not be admired for their design.
|
| DNA is the worst spaghetti code imaginable.
|
| The design is such a hack, that it's easier to let the unit
| die and just create new ones every few years.
| charlieflowers wrote:
| > it's easier to let the unit die and just create new ones
| every few years
|
| Cattle, not pets
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Poor comparison - DNA is compiled assembly language code.
| It is meant to be spaghetti to save space and reuse
| proteins for multiple functions. In that regard it's the
| most efficient compiler in the universe.
| btown wrote:
| "The creatures outside looked from DNA to k8s YAML, and
| from k8s YAML to DNA, and from DNA to k8s YAML again; but
| already it was impossible to say which was which."
| andrekandre wrote:
| its a pretty amazing hack though
|
| the human body can scale from 1 cell to several trillion
| without going down for maintenance even once all while
| differentiating to different functions
|
| it can take a high level of damage and heal without needing
| a shutdown as well, most software crashes completely at the
| first exception
|
| cells give you that highly scalable and fault tolerant
| system that we all want
| ska wrote:
| > without going down for maintenance even once
|
| doesn't it go down for maintenance approximately once a
| day?
| alluro2 wrote:
| It's more of a "sleep mode". There are still a lot of
| wakeups, and cron jobs running clean up of temporary
| files, cache management and backup routines. Background
| services still run.
| simonh wrote:
| Death isn't a solution to maintenance issues, there are
| some organisms including animals that live many hundreds of
| years and possibly indefinitely. The reason seems to be to
| increase the rate of iterations, to keep up the pace of
| adaptation and evolution.
| techie128 wrote:
| Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and turning it back
| on again?
| borissk wrote:
| "Let the unit die and just create new ones every few years"
| is a brilliant solution to many issues in complex systems.
| Practically all software created by humans behaves the same
| way - want a new version of your browser or a new major
| version of your OS kernel or whatever else - you have to
| restart them.
| rswail wrote:
| it's almost like Erlang supervisors all the way down :)
| ssivark wrote:
| And it's still more adaptable/robust/intelligent than
| almost any system we've built so far.
| babypuncher wrote:
| This isn't even that new of a thing. The floppy disk drive sold
| for the Commodore 64 included it's own 6502 CPU, ROM, and RAM.
| This ran its own disk operating system[1]. Clever programmers
| would upload their own code to the disk drive to get faster
| read/writes, pack data more densely on the disk, and even copy
| protection schemes that could validate the authenticity of a
| floppy.
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_DOS
| ansible wrote:
| And all that engineering resulted in a floppy drive that was
| slower _and_ more expensive than comparable units for other
| home computers. I 'm not sure if there is a lesson there...
| edgyquant wrote:
| There's more to life and computation than cycles and
| read/write speed. A generation of engineers began their
| journey doing these "useless things"
| ddingus wrote:
| Well, it was slower due to a hardware problem. Basically,
| the hardware serial device had a bug which required a bit
| bang comms channel to the disk drive. Doing that amidst the
| sometimes aggressive video DMA is what caused all the
| slowdowns.
|
| Back in the day I owned machines that did it both ways, but
| not a C64. My Atari computer also had a smart disk drive.
| Worked over something Atari called SIO, which is an early
| ancestor of modern USB. Back then, the Atari machine was
| device independent and that turned out to be great
| engineering!
|
| Today we have Fuji Net devices that basically put Atari and
| other computers on the Internet, even to the point of being
| able to write BASIC programs that do meaningful things
| online.
|
| The C64 approach was not much different, working via
| RS-232. But for a bug, it would have performed nicely.
|
| Now, my other machine was an Apple ][, and that disk was
| all software. And it was fast! And being all software meant
| people did all sorts of crazy stuff on those disk drives
| ranging from more capacity to crazy copy protection.
|
| But... That machine could do nothing else during disk
| access.
|
| The Atari and C64 machines could do stuff and access their
| disks.
|
| Today, that Fuji Net device works via the SIO on the Atari,
| with the Internet being the N: device! On the Apple, it
| works via the SmartPort, which worked with disk drives that
| contained? Wait for it!!
|
| A CPU :)
|
| Seriously, your point is valid. But, it's not really valid
| in the sense you intended.
| rasz wrote:
| No, VIC-20/1540 had hardware problem. C64 shipped with
| fixed chips. C64 cant even work with 1540. Commodore
| crippled it because of incompetence.
| ddingus wrote:
| Too late for me to edit, but yes I did confuse the source
| of the bug. Please clarify the C64 drive scenario source
| of slowness. Was it VIC-20 backward compatibility, or?
|
| In any case, I maintain the engineering wasn't at fault,
| having a CPU etc. Fastloaders showed it to be just poor
| software, and that's a point I did not make clear enough.
| cromwellian wrote:
| The 1541 was slow because the c64's serial bus was slow.
| Data was clocked over the bus 1 bit at a time. Various
| fastloaders sped up the data rate by reusing the clock line
| itself as a data line (2 bits at a time), later HW adapters
| adder parallel port or even usb to overcome the serial bus
| bottleneck.
|
| Basically commodore was gonna use an ieee-488 bus for the
| drive and then decided it was too expensive late in the
| design and switched to this hacks serial bus that
| bottlenecked everything.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Probably not a fair comparison in some ways but this
| reminds me of that story of Woz making a disk drive
| controller with far fewer chips by being clever and
| thoughtful about it all. I'm probably misremembering this.
| [deleted]
| goosedragons wrote:
| That's what pretty much what happened. The Integrated Woz
| Machine.
| ronbarr wrote:
| You're talking about the Integrated Woz Machine. It was a
| custom disk controller that Wozniak created that was used
| in the Apple ][, /// and I believe on the original Macs.
| It was cheap, fast and worked.
| wrs wrote:
| And a later Mac, the IIfx, introduced I/O coprocessors to
| run the IWM, among other things. All part of the glorious
| wheel of reincarnation. [0]
|
| [0] https://www.computer-dictionary-
| online.org/definitions-c/cyc...
| duskwuff wrote:
| Crazier yet: the IOPs on the IIfx were 6502-based
| microcontrollers.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| The Integrated Woz Machine was the custom single-chip
| version of the Apple II floppy controller.
| NateLawson wrote:
| The slowness was due to a hardware bug in the 6522 VIA
| chip. The shift register (FIFO) would lock up randomly.
| Since this couldn't be fixed before the floppy drive needed
| to be shipped, they had the 6502 CPU bit-bang the IEC
| protocol, which was slower. The hardware design for the
| 154x floppy drive was fine, and some clever software tricks
| allow stock hardware to stream data back to the C64 and
| decode the GCR at the full media rate.
|
| https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/gcr-
| decoding/index....
| Eleison23 wrote:
| The 1541 was set to be a highly capable and performant
| machine, but an interface/design bug held it back and
| delivered dismal performance whenever connected to the C64.
| They tried to fix it but it couldn't be rescued, so speed
| freaks needed to wait for the 1570 series.
| cromwellian wrote:
| It was partially rescued by fastloaders and later
| JiffyDOS. Fastloaders tended to max out at 10-13x if the
| disk format was unchanged but if you could reformat or
| recode the files you could go anywhere from 25x speed to
| over 40x (transwarp) on stock hardware. DolphinDOS gave a
| 25x speed up by using the parallel port with 1541.
|
| Epyx games used the Vorpal format which gave 15x load
| speedup.
|
| The point is, the speed issues weren't really the 1541's
| fault although GCR coding could have benefited from a HW
| decoder.
| musictubes wrote:
| Oh God, the 1541 ran soooo hot, hotter than the C64 itself. I
| remember using a fan on the drive during marathon Ultima
| sessions. The 1571 was so much cooler and faster.
| saltcured wrote:
| In the era of CP/M machines, the terminal likely had a
| similar CPU and RAM to the computer running the OS too. So
| you had one CPU managing the text framebuffer and CRT driver,
| connected to one managing another text framebuffer and
| application, connected to another one managing the floppy
| disk servos.
| helf wrote:
| I guess I should have clarified more: I dislike everything
| running entirely separate OSes that you have no control
| over at all and are complete black boxes.
|
| The fact they are running entire OSes themselves isn't that
| big of a deal. I just hate having no control.
| rasz wrote:
| Yes, but ... Commodore did this because they had incompetent
| management. They shipped products (VIC-20, 1540) with
| hardware defect in one of the chips (6522), chip they
| manufactured themselves. The kicker is
|
| - C64 shipped with 6526, a fixed version of 6522
|
| - C64 is incompatible with 1540 anyway
|
| They crippled C64 for no reason other than to sell more
| Commodore manufactured chips inside a pointless box. C128 was
| similar trick of stuffing C64 with garbage leftover from
| failed projects and selling computer with 2 CPUs and 2
| graphic chips at twice the price. Before slow serial devices
| they were perfectly capable of making fast and cheaper to
| manufacture floppies for PET/CBM systems.
| helf wrote:
| Oh I know it's been a thing forever. Hell, my NeXT Cube with
| its NeXTDimension display board was such. The NeXTDimension
| board ran its own entire stripped down OS. It used an Intel
| i860 and a Mach kernel.... It also was massively
| underutilized. If NeXT had did a bit more leg work and made
| the actual Display PS server run entirely on the board it
| would have been insane. But the 68K still did everything.
|
| ... I miss my NeXTs..
| jbverschoor wrote:
| I sometimes wonder about how fast tings could go if we ditch
| the firmware, and also just bake a kernel / os right into the
| silicon. Not like all the subsystems which run their own
| os/kernels, but really just cut every layer, and have nothing
| in between.
| astrange wrote:
| It'd be slower. These coprocessor OSes are there to improve
| performance in the first place.
|
| (Especially because wall clock time is not the only kind of
| performance that matters.)
| saagarjha wrote:
| Then you can't improve them.
| p_l wrote:
| You'd find yourself needing to add more CPUs to account for
| all the low level handling that is done by various
| coprocessors for you, eating into your compute budget,
| especially with high interrupt ratio as you wouldn't have it
| abstracted and batched in the now missing coprocessors
| hinkley wrote:
| It's only a problem if they're closed source. We should be
| working on that.
| comprambler wrote:
| Technically it is not a real time OS. There are very few OSs
| that have this moniker (vxworks, qnx, etc)
| saagarjha wrote:
| "Real-time" isn't a trademark, you can assign it to other
| things if they meet the typical guarantees of "real-time".
| dist1ll wrote:
| There's this great USENIX talk by Timothy Roscoe [1], which is
| part of the Enzian Team at ETH Zurich.
|
| It's about the dominant unholistic approach to modern operating
| system design, which is reflected in the vast number of
| independent, proprietary, under-documented RTOSes running in
| tandem on a single system, and eventually leading to
| uninspiring and lackluster OS research (e.g. Linux
| monoculture).
|
| I'm guessing that hardware and software industries just don't
| have well-aligned interests, which unfortunately leaks into OS
| R&D.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo
| est31 wrote:
| I think making it harder to build an OS by increasing its
| scope is not going to help people to build Linux
| alternatives.
|
| As for the components, at least their interfaces are
| standardized. You can remove memory sticks by manufacturer A
| and replace them with memory sticks from manufacturer B
| without problem. Same goes for SATA SSDs or mice or
| keyboards.
|
| Note that I'm all in favour of creating OSS firmware for
| devices, that's amazing. But one should not destroy the
| fundamental boundary between the OS and the firmware that
| runs the hardware.
| dist1ll wrote:
| Building an OS _is_ hard. There 's no way around its
| complexity. But closing your eyes and pretending everything
| is a file is a security disaster waiting to happen
| (actually, happening every day).
|
| And furthermore, OS research is not only about building
| Linux alternatives. There are a lot of operating systems
| that have a much narrower focus than full-blown multi-
| tenant GPOS. So building holistic systems with a narrower
| focus is a much more achievable goal.
|
| > As for the components, at least their interfaces are
| standardized
|
| That's not true once you step into SoC land. Components are
| running walled-garden firmware and binary blobs that are
| undocumented. There's just no incentive to provide a
| developer platform if no one gives a shit about holistic
| OSes in the first place.
| simonh wrote:
| > There are a lot of operating systems that have a much
| narrower focus than full-blown multi-tenant GPOS.
|
| I hear some of them are used to manage embedded
| components in GPOS systems. Oh, wait...!
| dist1ll wrote:
| Narrow focus =/= only control one hardware component
| MisterTea wrote:
| > But closing your eyes and pretending everything is a
| file is a security disaster waiting to happen (actually,
| happening every day).
|
| What is this in response to? GP never mentioned file
| interfaces.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Sure they did, they talked about the abstractions present
| in Linux.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I'd like to know why they believe this.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| > But closing your eyes and pretending everything is a
| file is a security disaster waiting to happen (actually,
| happening every day).
|
| How so? I can see the limited access control in Linux is
| an issue, and for this reason augmented security MAC
| (Mandatory Access Control) controls exist like SELinux
| and AppArmor.
|
| But I don't see how the nature of everything being a file
| is a vulnerability in itself.
|
| I'd be happy to learn how though.
| [deleted]
| dist1ll wrote:
| It was a lame attempt at humor, a roundabout way of
| referring to the simplifying assumptions that *nix
| systems generally make of the underlying machine.
| fanf2 wrote:
| If you want to follow the principles of capability
| security, then a key part of the strategy is to eliminate
| "ambient authority", that is, any kind of globally
| accessible way of obtaining a capability.
|
| In traditional unix-like systems, file descriptors are
| very close to capabilities. But the global filesystem
| namespace is a source of ambient authority.
|
| There are a couple of ways to fix this issue: fine-
| grained per-process namespaces like Plan 9, so that the
| filesystem's authority can be attenuated as necessary, so
| it becomes more like a capability. Or eliminate absolute
| pathnames from the API, so you have to use functions like
| openat() to get an fd relative to an existing fd.
| lbotos wrote:
| Also one by Bryan Cantrill recently around the stack of black
| boxes:
|
| https://www.osfc.io/2022/talks/i-have-come-to-bury-the-
| bios-...
| stock_toaster wrote:
| It's interesting that microkernels didn't "win" at the OS
| layer, but they kind of seem to have "won" one layer down.
| rswail wrote:
| I think IBM's IO channels would like a word... it's been like
| this for most of computing.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| The real-time nature is not what makes it closed though. It's
| simply that it's been designed to be closed.
|
| For example, Intel's ME could be a really useful feature if we
| could do what we want with it. Instead they lock it down so
| it's just built-in spyware.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Isn't the primary purpose of the ME to run DRM and back door
| the system? How would it be useful at all open source? People
| would just turn it off entirely.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I could imagine a super low power coprocessor that's always
| on would be a real useful tool. It could check my email and
| other low power tasks.
|
| And remote management isn't bad if it's entirely under my
| control. It's the closed nature that makes me distrust it.
| Gigachad wrote:
| This has already been solved. Modern devices come with
| low power general purpose cores and OSs can wake up
| briefly to check for new messages. I just can't see why
| you would ever want to remote manage your own laptop
| where some software installed on the OS isn't sufficient.
| wmf wrote:
| _I just can't see why you would ever want to remote
| manage your own laptop where some software installed on
| the OS isn't sufficient._
|
| It's to remotely recover when Windows corrupts itself.
| (Which is far less common than it used to be.)
| borissk wrote:
| Intel recent CPUs come with efficiency cores and support
| S0 standby, aka "Modern Standby", which can periodically
| wake up and do stuff like check for new emails.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| They do but it's not nearly as low-power nor as
| constantly available as Intel ME is.
| Avamander wrote:
| There have been earlier attempts at achieving this
| functionality by Intel, can't recall what they called it
| right now, but it has existed for a while.
| liuliu wrote:
| I don't know. This sounds very computer-sciency-ish. We build
| smaller tools to help build big things. Now the big things are
| so good and versatile we can replace our smaller tools with the
| big things too. With the more powerful tools, we can build even
| bigger things. It is just compiler bootstrapping happening in
| hardware world.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| The problem is that there's so much unexplored territory in
| operating system design. "Everything is a file" and the other
| *nix assumptions are too often just assumed to be normal. So
| much more is possible.
| saagarjha wrote:
| You do realize that RTKit is not a Unix-like OS, right?
| dlinz wrote:
| Curious student here, would you mind elaborating a bit on
| this unexplored territory?
| random314 wrote:
| Smalltalk vms, forth, Oberon, lisp machines, amoeba etc
| mrguyorama wrote:
| This is a bit like asking "Can you elaborate on particle
| physics" in 1900. The point is that _we don 't know_
| because there's been so little experimentation in the
| space. Not a lot of funding for "build an OS that uses
| completely different idioms and concepts to what we know,
| possibly without even a goal other than trying something
| out".
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Here's a HN comment from earlier this week that
| elaborates on some earlier operating systems that
| explored some really novel ideas:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33768592
|
| To summarize:
|
| > ITS (of PDP-10 hacker fame) - processes could debug and
| introspect their child processes. The debugger was always
| available, basically. The operating system provided
| support for breakpoints, single-stepping, examining
| process memory, etc.
|
| > KeyKOS (developed by Tymshare for their commercial
| computing services in the 1970s) - A capability operating
| system. If everything in UNIX was a file, then everything
| in KeyKOS was a memory page, and capabilities (keys) to
| access those pages.
|
| In every operating system, the basic unit of abstraction
| will be a _process_ -- which necessitates a scheduler,
| some form of memory protection, some way for the process
| to interact with the kernel, and the notions of "kernel
| space" and "user space". There is a lot of room for
| innovation there (see ITS), but I suspect most of the
| room for innovation is in how an OS abstracts/refers to
| various parts of the system.
| lazide wrote:
| Possible, but apparently rarely worth the extra effort or
| complexity to think about.
|
| The Unix 'everything is a file' has done well because it
| works pretty well.
|
| It also isn't generally a security issue, because it allows
| application of the natural and well developed things we use
| for files (ACLs, permissions, etc), without having to come
| up with some new bespoke idea, with all it's associated
| gaps, unimplemented features, etc.
|
| Hell, most people don't even use posix ACLs, because they
| don't need it.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Same. It's not about the principle, but that generally these
| OSes increase latency etc. There's so much you can do with
| interrupts, DMA, and targetted code when performance is a
| priority.
| saagarjha wrote:
| What makes you think performance was not a priority here?
| hias wrote:
| kajaktum wrote:
| Half the comments here are talking about the vtuber herself. Who
| cares. It's been talked before. Just imagine if half the thread
| is discussing what gender she is. What I am interested in is the
| claims here https://asahilinux.org/2022/11/tales-of-
| the-m1-gpu/#rust-is-.... (what is it called if it comes with a
| proof?).
|
| The resident C/C++ experts here would have you believe that the
| same is possible in C/C++. Is that true?
| aulin wrote:
| I must admit that for me this was a pleasant change of format
| from the youtube videos.
| SXX wrote:
| I'm not exactly C or Rust expert so better to check @dagmx
| comment for that, but I know some C++ and worked with
| networking enough to know some pitfalls.
|
| Talking of C++ it can be really solid to work with your own
| data structures where you control code on both ends. Using
| templates with something like boost::serialization or protobuf
| for the first time is like magic. E.g you can serialize whole
| state of your super complex app and restore it on other node
| easily.
|
| Unfortunately it's just not the case when you actually trying
| to work with someone else API / ABI that you have no contol
| over. Even worse when it's moving target and you need to
| maintain several different adapters for different client /
| server versions.
| jahewson wrote:
| If you choose a presentation format that overshadows the
| content... it's going to overshadow the content.
| puyoxyz wrote:
| Except this is a blog post, not a Asahi Lina video ... did
| you even click the link?
| dagmx wrote:
| In C? No, not unless you write your own scaffolding to do it.
|
| In C++? Maybe, but you'd need to make sure you stay on top of
| using thread safe structures and smart pointers.
|
| What Rust does is flip this. The default is the safe path. So
| instead of risking forgetting smart pointers and thread safe
| containers, the compiler keeps you honest.
|
| So you're not spending time chasing oddities because you missed
| a variable initialisation, or you're hitting a race condition
| or some kind of use after free.
|
| While there's a lot of people who say that this slows you down
| and a good programmer doesn't need it, my experience is even
| the best programmers forget and (at least for me), I spend more
| time trying to reason about C++ code than rust, because I can
| trust my rust code more.
|
| Put another way, Rust helps with reducing how much of the
| codebase I need to consider at any given time to just the most
| local scope. I work in many heavy graphics C and C++ libraries
| , and have never had that level of comfort or mental locality.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| Of course it's possible in either. By the way, Mac drivers
| are in fact written in a subset of C++. At least they used to
| be, maybe that has changed.
| astrange wrote:
| They are written in a strange subset of C++ with its own
| inheritance system and currency classes.
|
| In NeXTStep they were written in ObjC, and probably
| should've stayed that way.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Just like UNIX kernel code is a strange subset of C.
|
| I always find strange how "kernel C" is C, even though
| ISO C would bork in kernel space, but doing a similar C++
| subset is pointed out as not being C++.
| astrange wrote:
| I'd also call kernel C strange. Mostly justified, but
| there's no particular reason the memory allocation call
| with the same behavior as malloc() in IOKit isn't named
| malloc().
| Razengan wrote:
| > _They are written in a strange subset of C++ with its
| own inheritance system and currency classes._
|
| Can someone explain? Is there something other than
| DriverKit, which seems to be C++?
|
| https://developer.apple.com/documentation/driverkit
| pjmlp wrote:
| You have to go back to IO Kit, Driver Kit is the new one
| in userspace.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/documentation/iokit
|
| Which is how the Objective-C framework for NeXTSTEP
| drivers used to be called,
|
| http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/NeXTStep/3.3/
| nd/...
| dagmx wrote:
| I suspect they're either conflating things with
| ObjectiveC or FireBloom
| (https://saaramar.github.io/iBoot_firebloom/)
|
| Both would sort of fit those descriptions I guess if one
| were to squint.
| astrange wrote:
| https://developer.apple.com/documentation/kernel/osmetacl
| ass...
|
| https://developer.apple.com/documentation/kernel/osarray
|
| That kind of thing.
| dagmx wrote:
| Oh interesting. Thanks for the link
| kajaktum wrote:
| I am curios to know if the trait system helps a lot with
| mapping the underlying kernel features/quirks? Which language
| is better at creating abstractions that maps closer to how
| the kernel works?
| dagmx wrote:
| Hmm , I'm no kernel writer but I don't think trait's
| necessarily offer anything in rust over C++ where I'd use
| polymorphism with abstract interfaces.
|
| When I've written lower level components the things that
| have really been godsends outside the safety features are
| things like enums (much more powerful than C/C++
| unions/enums and much more ergonomic than variants).
|
| And even though I said traits don't offer too much more
| than C++, one thing I think they do really offer is when
| combined with generics. Rust generics let you define trait
| requirements better (though not as extremely flexible) as
| C++ concepts/constraints.
| pjmlp wrote:
| It would also have been possible in Ada, but of course it
| isn't cool.
| dagmx wrote:
| The history of Ada kept it from getting widespread
| attention. Sometimes it's just about the right time and
| place.
|
| Plus there's something to be said for cargo being a killer
| feature for rust. Easy build configuration , easy package
| management and access to a large ecosystem of libraries.
|
| Between that and the book..:As steep a learning curve as
| the language itself has, the actual on-boarding process is
| way more accessible than many other compiled languages.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Sure, but let's not pretend it is the very first time
| anything better than C and C++ came to be, and Ada is
| only a possible example.
|
| Rust sucess story is briging Cyclone type system into
| mainstream, and in such a way that other languages (even
| those with automatic management runtimes) started looking
| at affine and linear type systems for low level
| performance optimizations.
|
| However for explicit type conversions, bounds checking in
| strings and arrays, modules, co-routines, assignment
| before use,... there were plenty of alternatives, which
| for one reason or the other didn't took off, most not
| really technical related.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| I agree that Rust is the better language because it gives you
| the safe tools by default.
|
| Smart pointers are no panacea for memory safety in C++
| though: even if you use them fastidiously, avoiding raw
| pointer access, iterator invalidation or OOB access will come
| for you. The minute you allocate and have to resize, you're
| exposed.
| dagmx wrote:
| Yeah that's definitely true. Anytime I use any C++ api that
| I did not write or analyze at my best is a shotgun waiting
| to go off. Hell, even then, that assumes I know enough to
| catch everything. I've recently been doing security
| analysis of some very popular repos and C++ is terrifying
| at times.
|
| Rust isn't perfect but it gives me so much more trust in
| everything I do.
| embedded3 wrote:
| > What Rust does is flip this. The default is the safe path.
| So instead of risking forgetting smart pointers and thread
| safe containers, the compiler keeps you honest.
|
| For what it's worth, the same is true of Swift. But since
| much of the original Rust team was also involved with Swift
| language development, I guess it's not too much of a
| surprise. The "unsafe" api requires some deliberate effort to
| use, no accidents are possible there. It's all very verbose
| through a very narrow window of opportunity if you do
| anything unsafe.
| dagmx wrote:
| I have such a love hate relationship with Swift. It
| genuinely has some great ergonomics and I see it as a
| sister language to rust.
|
| I just wish it was more cross platform (I know it
| technically works on Linux and windows...but it's not a
| great experience) and that it didn't have so much churn
| (though they've stopped futzing with the core components as
| much with Swift 4+).
|
| I also wish it was faster. I did an Advent of Code against
| some friends. I picked Rust, they picked Swift. The rust
| code was running circles around their Swift ones even when
| we tried to keep implementations the same.
|
| Anyway, that's a rant, but I think to your point, I feel
| like Swift could have been as big as Rust..or bigger given
| the easier use, with many of the same guarantees. I just
| wish the early years were more measured.
| embedded3 wrote:
| >The rust code was running circles around their Swift
| ones even when we tried to keep implementations the same.
|
| I've done Advent of Code a few years -- even Javascript
| implementations, if using a good (optimal) algorithm, are
| highly performant, so I'm suspicious of the claim. In
| most AoC problems, if your code is observably different
| between languages, it's the fault of the algorithm,
| regardless of language. But perhaps you are referring to
| well-profiled differences, even if there are no
| observable differences.
|
| That said, in projects other than AoC I've compared Swift
| to C++ and it's hard to deny that a low-level language is
| faster than Swift, but Swift itself is certainly fast
| compared to most dynamically typed or interpreted
| languages like Python, JS, Ruby, etc. which are vastly
| slower than anything in Swift.
| dagmx wrote:
| Swift is fast but it's both easy to accidentally write
| slow code and there is a not-insignificant amount of
| overhead to the reference counting and constant dynamic
| table lookups.
|
| When I say Rust ran circles around it, I mean the
| difference was not noticeable unless timing, and was the
| difference of 200ms vs 400ms or a 3 seconds vs 5 seconds
| , so nothing to write home about necessarily.
| irae wrote:
| That is not the first time I want to understand a bit
| better the performance difference today between the
| approaches of Rust, without a garbage collector, ARC on
| Swift with the reference counting and other garbage
| collected languages, such as Javascript.
|
| I know Javascript have an unfair advantage here, since
| the competition between V8 and the other javascript cores
| is huge over the years and garbage collection on JS is
| not often a problem. At least I see more people
| struggling with the JVM GC with its spikes in resource
| usage.
|
| I've also heard that the erlang VM (be it written in
| elixir or erlang itself) implements GC on a different
| level, not to the global process, but on a more granular
| way.
|
| Is there a good resource that compare the current state
| of performance between those languages or approaches?
| ribit wrote:
| Additional advantage of Rust is the extensive macro system.
| The ability to generate a bunch of versioned structures out
| of a common description, all with their own boilerplate and
| validation code, is invaluable for this kind of work. Some of
| it can be done in C++ with templates as well, but the
| ergonomy is on a different level.
| kevincox wrote:
| > even the best programmers forget
|
| For me it isn't even that it catches these problems when I
| forget. It is that I can stop worrying about these problems
| when writing the vast majority of code. I just take
| references and use variables to get the business logic
| implemented without the need to worry about lifetimes the
| entire time. Then once the business logic is done I switch to
| dealing with compiler errors and fixing these problems that I
| was ignoring the first time around.
|
| When writing C and C++ I feel like I need to spend half of my
| brainpower tracking lifetimes for every line of code I touch.
| If I touch a single line of code in a function I need to read
| and understand the relevant lifetimes in that function before
| changing a single line. Even if I don't make any mistakes
| doing this consumes a lot of time and mental energy. With
| Rust I can generally just change the relevant line and the
| compiler will let me know what other parts of the function
| need to be updated. It is a huge mental relief and time
| saver.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Possible? Definitely. Easier? Probably not. At least for the
| most part, there are a couple things which C(++) can sometimes
| be more ergonomic for and those can be isolated out and used
| independently.
| mort96 wrote:
| I have a lot of experience in C, a lot of experience in C++,
| and some experience with Rust (I have some projects which use
| it). My opinion is that it's true, and the other comments are
| good explanations of why. But I want to point out, in addition
| to those: There's a reason why Rust was adopted into Linux,
| while C++ wasn't. Getting C++ to work in the kernel would
| almost certainly have been way less work than getting Rust to
| work. But only Rust can give you the strong guarantees which
| makes you avoid lifetime-, memory- and concurrency-related
| mistakes.
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| You can't underestimate the amount of personal hatred that
| Linus and several other linux maintainers have for C++. I
| can't really say I blame them - C++ before C++11 was a bit of
| a nightmare in terms of performance and safety.
| dimator wrote:
| watching a virtual persona stream their development of their M1
| GPU drivers is one of the most cyberpunk things I've ever seen!
| it's easy to forget that this world is looking closer and closer
| to those dreamed up by Gibson, Stephenson, etc. what a time to be
| alive.
| anxiously wrote:
| Can someone explain this vtoon trend to me? It doesn't seem to
| be driven by anonymity because their real name is easily
| findable, so I assume it's something else? It seems very
| common, especially in certain communities.
| realjhol wrote:
| IntelMiner wrote:
| Very well articulated comment from someone with highlights
| such as
|
| "you write for the Gaurdian and relentlessly spout feminist
| propaganda"
|
| "destruction that activist hooligans created in Portland"
|
| "Neurodiverse isn't a real medical term"
|
| Sounds like you've got a very particular axe to grind from
| a very particularly narrow world view. I hope one day you
| learn to enjoy your fellow human beings for who they are
| anaisbetts wrote:
| If you were the Genre of person who got rude / explicit /
| insulting comments whenever you showed your actual face on
| camera, the vtoon trend would be quite easy to understand
| mlindner wrote:
| Hector Martin (assuming they're the same person) looks
| perfectly fine on camera. They're an average looking person
| but I fail to find anything anyone would criticize about
| his looks.
| Alekhine wrote:
| Try being a woman.
| mlindner wrote:
| My first response was a bit curt so I've removed it.
| (Edit: I can't seem to remove it.) Yes I'm aware a lot of
| women get harassment when they show their face streaming.
| It's one of the reasons it's so popular in Japan for
| women to be vtubers rather than show their face while
| streaming while the popularity for men doing it is
| significantly less (though there's still plenty who do it
| without changing their voice).
|
| However Hector Martin is not a woman living in Japan and
| they look perfectly fine/average.
| mlindner wrote:
| But Hector Martin isn't a woman...
| mlindner wrote:
| The above comment is deleted.
| gburdell3 wrote:
| Some people just prefer their public persona to be in the
| form of an avatar instead of their real face. They want to
| have something there to represent themselves instead of just
| streaming a screen and nothing else, but they would rather
| that representation be an avatar or character rather than
| their physical selves.
| astrange wrote:
| Also Japanese viewers like this better, and you don't have
| to look good, and if you're streaming from inside a
| soundproof box in summer without AC then you don't even
| have to wear clothes.
| maegul wrote:
| Personally, I like the idea. IMO, we lost something when it
| became normal/expected to link our real-life self to our
| internet selves. We arguable gained some unpleasant things
| too (thinking of Facebook here).
|
| A persistent avatar/alias as an internet persona seems to
| match the real-life to internet-life relationship better.
| IE, for many, they're different and rather separable
| aspects of life.
| javajosh wrote:
| There was a Black Mirror episode that makes plain the
| downside of a virtual representation: it can be taken
| from you and manipulated by someone else. The persona
| becomes a sale-able commodity, and can be separated from
| your control.
| teddyh wrote:
| With deep fakes, this is already also true of your _non_
| -virtual representation.
| spartanatreyu wrote:
| I remember hearing that this exact thing happened a few
| years ago in either Japan or South Korea.
|
| There was a talent agency that had three-four performers
| who took shifts streaming games through a shared vtuber
| persona who had build up some popularity. At some point
| the agency fired the performers and replaced them with a
| new performer who didn't have the same performance.
|
| The fans weren't told but it was immediately apparent, so
| they started demanding the changes to be reverted. The
| fans were ignored and both the vtuber's popularity and
| the agency fell back into obscurity.
|
| I guess the lesson here is that personas are personal.
| arczyx wrote:
| Maybe this is what you're talking about? https://virtualy
| outuber.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Club_Project#20...
| setr wrote:
| Perhaps relevant -- loss of control can be much more
| impacting depending on how much weight you give to that
| online persona:
| http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-
| cyberspace/
| [deleted]
| LeonM wrote:
| In case of Marcan/Lina I got the impression that he created
| Lina just for fun. It started as an April fools joke (Lina
| 'took over' Marcan's live stream), but Marcan seems to enjoy
| it a lot, even going so far as contributing to the Inochi2D
| software (used to render Lina) to improve all sorts of facial
| features.
|
| I don't have the impression that in Marcan's case it was ever
| about anonymity, it is more about a creative expression.
|
| Up until Lina's introduction on April 1st, I had never seen a
| vTuber stream, and I must say it is quite fun to watch.
| Though personally I wish Lina's voice is tweaked a bit,
| because it can be hard to understand what she is saying.
| novok wrote:
| Oh I didn't realize that is what was happening. This makes
| all the HN commentary around it even funnier.
| leidenfrost wrote:
| What I like about Lina and Alyssa is the increase of
| visibility of LGBT+ people in the more "hardware" part of
| software development.
|
| As your get more low level, less visual and more niche,
| there's less and less diversity of software developers. And
| everyone should feel welcomed into hacking the kernel.
| heurisko wrote:
| Everyone being welcomed into contributing to the kernel
| can result in a natural lack of diversity, as it selects
| for people interested in technical programming.
|
| It is the ham-fisted attempts to increase diversity for
| its own sake have ended up being discriminatory. [1]
|
| If there are barriers stopping people contributing, these
| should be removed. I expect these to be economic
| barriers, rather than those based on particular
| characteristics.
|
| [1] https://www.theregister.com/2018/05/03/llvm_contribut
| or_resi...
| leidenfrost wrote:
| Why is it that whenever gender and identity is mentioned
| in a technical community suddenly people start talking
| about "ham-fisted" and forced inclusions?
|
| There's nothing forced about people getting into
| programming and becoming relevant for it, that just by
| chance it turns out they are not cis+heterosexual.
|
| Nobody in the Asahi crew was "a ham fisted attempt to
| increase diversity".
|
| The only forced thing here is the "forced inclusion"
| topic. That, for whatever kind of reason, people
| stubbornly keep trying to bring to the front.
| epolanski wrote:
| I think the point is about many engineering orgs adding
| "minorities" for the sake of PR rather because these
| "minorities" are great resources.
|
| It is obvious that there's terrific engineers and
| professionals regardless of sexual orientation and we
| have countless proofs behind it, last but not least the
| linked article and many of the other asahi contributors.
|
| But when the likes or Google or Facebook are obviously
| hiring because you are a minority it's when the solution
| to gender or sexual discrimination is simply...reversed.
| catiopatio wrote:
| > Why is it that whenever gender and identity is
| mentioned in a technical community suddenly people start
| talking about "ham-fisted" and forced inclusions?
|
| You answered your own question; it's a technical
| community. Centering political activism is
| counterproductive to the fundamental telos of being a
| technical community.
|
| Existing members, unsurprisingly, push back against
| colonization of their community by those more interested
| in gender ideology or identity politics than technology.
| heurisko wrote:
| My point was criticising your underlying assumption that
| the lack of diversity is due to an unwelcoming
| environment, presumably as a result of intolerance to
| certain characteristics.
| glandium wrote:
| Isn't it the opposite, though?
| https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1582930401118806016
| LeonM wrote:
| I might be wrong here, but I have always been under the
| impression that they are the same person. I didn't even
| realise that is was supposed to be a secret.
|
| Simple things like Lina en Marcan using the same hostname
| for the development machine (Raider), using the same IDE
| (Kate), using the same bash aliases (the one I like most
| if 'stfu' that appears to suppress terminal output), and
| a huge overlap of knowledge. Then there is also the same
| fast-paced speaking style that Marcan has.
|
| I did notice Lina always (rather jokingly) denying being
| Marcan, especially during the April 1 debut, but I always
| assumed that that was just part of the joke.
|
| Again, I might be wrong here, maybe they are not the same
| person after all, but as far as I can tell it's just
| Hector Martin having fun.
|
| > Isn't it the opposite, though?
|
| You mean Lina being first, and Marcan being an alter-ego?
| Marcan (Hector Martin) is a real person, he has done
| quite a few interviews on camera.
| https://youtu.be/dF2YQ92WKpM?t=496
| [deleted]
| teddyh wrote:
| It's like getting a specific haircut, choosing what model of
| glasses to get, or getting a nose job, or a tattoo. Or even
| just picking what style of clothes you want to represent
| yourself in. I.e. it's simply choosing your appearance, using
| more modern technology.
| leoqa wrote:
| That's generous. I find it weird and creepy, interestingly
| the Hololive kids are exclusively young women with
| childlike affects.
|
| It's not fooling anyone to pretend like this is normal self
| expression.
| atahanacar wrote:
| You sound like that religious old guy I see every now and
| then, who always annoys young people passing by for
| having tattoos and piercings.
| teddyh wrote:
| When they were new, most people thought of nose jobs (and
| other cosmetic surgery) as being weird and creepy. Some
| people still do. What is "normal" is a function of
| commonality, and at least VTooning does not cost a
| fortune and risks neither complications nor needing
| further surgery for years to come.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| Number one: you're using an overloaded term, but I
| suppose that your specific social conditioning has given
| you a specific concept of the definition of normal self
| expression that this clearly falls out of those
| boundaries.
|
| Number two: this person's goal CLEARLY isn't to fool
| anyone, it's not a deep fake video, and it's frankly none
| of your business or concern that they enjoy using an
| animated avatar.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| What is "normal self expression"? And what do you think
| they're trying to fool you about exactly?
|
| edit: clarify
| Mistletoe wrote:
| I like your optimism, but it seems more like a Phillip K. Dick
| novel to me.
|
| >In 2021, society is driven by a virtual Internet, which has
| created a degenerate effect called "nerve attenuation syndrome"
| or NAS. Megacorporations control much of the world,
| intensifying the class hostility already created by NAS.
|
| from Johnny Mnemonic
|
| What can we do to make it more utopian?
| Razengan wrote:
| > _What can we do to make it more utopian?_
|
| Move to Mars and start over.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| Not falling for it! I've seen Total Recall! Based on an
| actual Phillip K. Dick story.
|
| I have no hope that would work or is what Elon wants. I
| know he wants to set up the world's most exclusive gated
| community there.
| kevingadd wrote:
| It's an interesting set of tradeoffs - vtubing has made it
| possible for people to be on-screen personalities who
| normally would not able to as easily because it can be very
| hard to overcome problems with your IRL appearance. That
| stuff _really_ matters if you want to succeed on YouTube or
| Twitch. In comparison if you want to be a vtuber, there are
| relatively affordable ways to grab a stock model and
| customize it. You can also just commission a custom one from
| an artist and rigger - though I think the cost of that is
| sadly out of reach of an amateur it 's not as high as you
| might assume.
|
| If you stream without a face camera at all it generally hurts
| your ability to grow an audience, and unfortunately our
| society is still pretty focused on appearance so if you don't
| look great you're going to potentially get a lot of toxicity
| in your chat. A vtuber avatar acts as an equalizer in this
| sense and also lets people express their personality and
| aesthetics visually in a way that might not otherwise be easy
| - they can pick eye and hair colors they think represent them
| without having to use colored contacts or hair dyes, etc.
|
| A few different people I know found that having a vtuber
| avatar made it much easier for them to get into streaming
| regularly and it did grow their audience, so I'm happy to see
| the technology catch on and improve.
| astrange wrote:
| > It's an interesting set of tradeoffs - vtubing has made
| it possible for people to be on-screen personalities who
| normally would not able to as easily because it can be very
| hard to overcome problems with your IRL appearance.
|
| That's not the reason most of the popular ones do it.
| (Ironmouse, sure, but not anyone else.)
|
| Most of the bigger ones are corporate characters, so
| they're actually forced to hide themselves and it's more
| like they're uncredited actors. Besides that, it gives you
| privacy, avoids stalkers, means you don't have to do your
| makeup or get dressed (up or at all), things like that.
| Appearance still definitely matters though, but now it's
| your voice carrying you and not your face.
| mattnewton wrote:
| Small nit but I was confused, I think Johnny Mnemonic is
| Gibbson? And I had to look up NAS, I think that part of the
| movie not the book. I think we have another couple decades
| before androids and mood organs of Phillip K dick at least
| but I could be wrong. But parts of Gibbsonian cyberpunk is
| already here!
| Smoosh wrote:
| > already here
|
| Just unevenly distributed.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| You are so right. Bizarre. I thought that was Phillip K.
| Dick for all of my life I think. Even worse because Johnny
| Mnemonic is one of my favorite movies! I've got the Black
| Shakes worse than I thought.
| dwringer wrote:
| I was shocked to read this comment because I interpreted
| your original comment as meaning a Philip K Dick novel
| would be optimistic compared to the cyberpunk dystopia in
| which we find ourselves now. lol
|
| Anyway it's pretty fair to confuse the two I think, there
| can't be any way Johnny Mnemonic wasn't influenced by
| Blade Runner (I'm guessing it's true of both the movies
| and of the books). Very similar themes and protagonists
| at a certain level of abstraction.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Johnny Mnemonic was dead tree published in 1981. (I have
| the issue of OMNI)
|
| Blade Runner, the movie, was released in 1982.
|
| And PKD's DADoES was published in 1968.
|
| Honestly, IMHO, Blade Runner in movie form shares more
| DNA with Alien than proto-cyberpunk. They're both
| character studies rather than world-building exercises,
| albeit with massive credit to Ridley Scott and the design
| team that their "background" world is more lifelike than
| many world-centric films.
|
| But Blade Runner fundamentally lacks the multi-level
| cutthroat competitive aspect of cyberpunk. Oddly enough,
| a quirk that frequently recurs in British scifi, in
| contrast to the more free market American themes.
| olddustytrail wrote:
| Well, Blade Runner and Alien are set in the same
| universe.
| vl wrote:
| I'm watching The Peripheral, which seems to be influenced
| by Ready Player One. Which is ironical, since Gibson is a
| granddaddy of Ready Player One.
| [deleted]
| abudabi123 wrote:
| > What can we do to make it more utopian?
|
| A polity with an outmost shell of no bs ic spooks in a ratio
| of twenty to one cybersec defense to offense. There is the
| problem of sciengineers conceiving in the labs photonic
| computing but the committee member wage/salary slave cuts
| cost corners (or not but bloats up on unnecessary complexity)
| and we get the worsest join on the venn diagram in the
| industry spec.
| aftbit wrote:
| I feel like this is insightful but also I do not understand
| what you are saying. Can you perhaps elucidate?
| masklinn wrote:
| > I like your optimism, but it seems more like a Phillip K.
| Dick novel to me.
|
| Is it?
|
| It's basically forums & avatars brought in the medium of
| audio and video communication.
| extrememacaroni wrote:
| That's probably what everyone would say if they didn't read
| books. But some read books so...
|
| OMG CYBERPUNK DYSTOPIA PHILIP K DICK
| babypuncher wrote:
| Aesthetically it looks like the worlds imagined in a Phillip
| K. Dick novel, but none of the actual dystopian aspects are
| present in what GP described (rampant poverty/class
| disparity, environmental destruction, etc.)
|
| I don't think someone sharing their craft through a virtual
| avatar is any more responsible for these things than the
| flying cars from Blade Runner would be.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| > watching a virtual persona stream their development of their
| M1 GPU drivers is one of the most cyberpunk things I've ever
| seen!
|
| What would really push it into cyberpunk territory is if it
| turns out this is not an actual human but an AI-controlled
| virtual person.
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| Is she not real? :-o
| lazide wrote:
| Which is using this to seed memetic triggers that will allow
| it to take control invisibly later.
|
| Damn, I hope someone gets this into a script soon.
| segmondy wrote:
| Which is what Zuck is trying to get us all into with the Meta,
| but the world is not ready yet.
| babypuncher wrote:
| The difference is Zuck wants to control it. He wants to de-
| democratize the movement so he can more easily profit from
| it.
| philistine wrote:
| Don't forget to dissociate the concept of virtual worlds
| which already exist and are quite popular (MMOs etc.), and
| the idea of a virtual world owned and imagined by Zuckerberg
| which has been a terrible failure so far.
| cjsawyer wrote:
| The opinions around facebook's metaverse are hilarious when
| things like Second Life, WoW, EVE, VR Chat, and even Roblox
| have been so massively popular yet unrecognized for what
| they are.
| segmondy wrote:
| The difference between Facebooks Meta and other worlds is
| the difference between getting a billion+ people into the
| same virtual world. How big is Second Life? or Roblox?
| Gigachad wrote:
| Facebook is going to struggle to get a billion people on
| to their website/app soon. I really don't see this many
| people wanting to use a shitty VR chat app.
| RhodesianHunter wrote:
| I don't think you can call that a difference until
| metaverse starts actually hitting those numbers, or even
| surpassing the existing worlds.
| lazide wrote:
| Near as I can tell, second life seems to have around
| 40-50k typical users online.
|
| Which is sizable, but not amazing.
| steveklabnik wrote:
| 50k active users online right now would put Second Life
| at the 13th most active game on Steam.
| lazide wrote:
| Which is when folks start getting into the 'huh. People
| still play that?' part of the list, near as I can tell.
|
| [https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed]
| steveklabnik wrote:
| Yeah the way folks talk about steamcharts is _wild_.
| Honestly I think it's kinda bad for gaming, but I
| understand why people do it.
| steveklabnik wrote:
| > How big is... Roblox?
|
| 58.8 million DAUs in Q3 https://ir.roblox.com/news/news-
| details/2022/Roblox-Reports-...
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _opinions around facebook's metaverse are hilarious
| when things like Second Life, WoW, EVE, VR Chat, and even
| Roblox have been so massively popular_
|
| Well, yes. Who does something matters. I could totally
| see Facebook's metaverse failing a la Stadia or Diem.
| cjsawyer wrote:
| I didn't make myself clear enough, I was talking about
| people brushing off the core concept as intrinsically
| unfeasible. Obviously their specific version is tonedef
| and lacking features but the baseline concept is proven
| valid by those other versions.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| No, I specifically oppose Facebook's metaverse ambitions
| _because_ they are shittier mass-marketized versions of
| those same things.
|
| All of those other things you mentioned fit into specific
| niches and have built communities around themselves over
| time.
| dd36 wrote:
| Fortnite too.
| steveklabnik wrote:
| I kinda think to some degree those words _are_ the reason
| those opinions are the way they are. The metaverse is
| being sold as this new, groundbreaking, fantastic thing,
| when they 've already existed for decades.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Also, VRChat is infinitely better than the Metaverse,
| does not require you to sell your soul to Facebook, does
| not require a branded headset (OR ANY AT ALL, YOU CAN
| PLAY IT 2D), runs well, HAS LEGS ON YOUR AVATAR FFS, and
| massive community support in and out of game.
|
| Also it didn't require billions in investment. Facebook
| could have literally burned $900 million on hookers and
| cocaine, and then thrown $100 million to buy VR chat, and
| be better off than they are now.
| numpad0 wrote:
| I feel that Facebook's metaverse push is a desperate
| attempt to reverse the evolution of our identities from
| baseline, offline, unitary identity towards constructed
| and abstract, online, contextual, anime girls form. I
| don't know precisely why it's always specifically anime
| && girls, but everything else seems to fall face first so
| I guess it's survival of fittest.
| cjsawyer wrote:
| It's a side effect of where the early avatar creating
| tools had their development effort focused. Now it's just
| a weird cultural thing.
| hansworst wrote:
| I agree with everything except for the billions of
| dollars part. It seems quite obvious (but maybe I'm
| wrong?) that most of that investment went into the
| hardware that Meta has been developing over the years,
| and some of the "platform" capabilities that surround
| that hardware (think their app store for example). Sure,
| the virtual experiences are part of it. But I think it's
| not where the majority of the money went.
|
| They currently have the most popular VR hardware
| platform. And it's the only piece of hardware that Meta
| really has, everything else they make is software. If
| Meta wants to keep growing, being the leading producer of
| "the next big thing" in hardware would certainly help.
| Zuckerburg is betting on VR/AR being that next big thing.
| Only time will tell I guess. But I find it a little weird
| when I see people commenting on Meta's investment as if
| all they did was create a basic second life clone.
| They're building some of the most innovative consumer
| hardware at the moment. I'm not hugely into it because
| Meta doesn't really seem like the company I'd like to
| entrust with cameras pointing at my eyeballs, but you
| can't deny that the hardware they've built so far is
| quite impressive.
| vlunkr wrote:
| They've already existed, and had fun, engaging content.
| Meta in that sense is putting the cart before the horse.
| You can't convince us all to get into this world and then
| figure out what we're supposed to be doing there later
| on.
| jotm wrote:
| Everyone just pretends there wasn't a time when people
| were spending years of their life in an MMO.
|
| That was ruined by games trying to appeal to more
| mainstream people (with less hardcore Features like
| losing all your possessions upon death) and the
| micromonetization strategies that everyone hates.
|
| I wonder if VR will even have games like early Everquest,
| WoW, EVE, etc but in VR.
| astrange wrote:
| Vtubers are popular because they aren't in a virtual world
| you have to go visit. You just open up YouTube/Twitch and
| they stay in that little window without the possibility of
| getting trapped in an MMO where you die in real life if you
| die in the game.
|
| Although some of them are designing "virtual worlds" as an
| excuse to get around YouTube moderation and taking 30% of
| superchats.
| p1necone wrote:
| No, Zucks Metaverse just sucks. "The world isn't ready for my
| brilliant ideas" is the rallying cry of people with ideas but
| no execution ability.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Same thing was said about full touch screen iphones circa
| 2007.
|
| VR/AR just hasn't been done right as of now, but its getting
| close. Demand is there. Imagine virtual schooling during time
| like Covid, but instead of Zoom, kids actually see each other
| in VR and can interact with each other.
| HardlyCurious wrote:
| And then their avatars could have cloth masks, you know,
| just for show, like why TV anchors wore them.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yeah it's pretty great, though I hope it won't be leveraged
| to reduce physical presence in social settings. The real
| world is still the place to be when possible, but it would
| be great not having to fly across the world for face to
| face meetings. Teams is just not good enough. VR might
| eventually become so.
| samgranieri wrote:
| This is seriously impressive!! Hats off to everyone involved
| punnerud wrote:
| Not one comment here about the "GPU drivers in Python". I like
| the idea of iteration speed, over pure speed.
|
| And the coprocessor called "ASC" also have similarities with
| Python, where the GPU is doing the heavy lifting, but the ASC
| (like Python) interact using shared memory. The same Python is
| doing with a lot of its libraries (written in C/C++)
| saagarjha wrote:
| > And the coprocessor called "ASC" also have similarities with
| Python
|
| It's a processor, not a programming language :) The team has
| essentially strapped the API into something that you can poke
| with Python instead of with a native driver.
| [deleted]
| rafale wrote:
| Loved reading this. About the triangle/cube screenshot, they were
| taken on Linux on a physical Mac OS computer? How were you able
| to deploy your driver, does the M1 GPU have a basic text/console
| mode allowing you to start and work with Linux?
|
| Awesome job.
| puyoxyz wrote:
| Displaying to the screen and stuff was already working, you can
| already use Asahi Linux and have a GUI and everything, it's
| just that it's all rendered by the CPU right now
| calrizien wrote:
| Great work! Seems like Apple could make this a whole lot easier
| by giving even the slightest support...
| sneak wrote:
| It is irksome to me given how much Linux is used inside Apple
| (board bringup, debugging, etc). You benefit from these gifts,
| Apple, give back a teensy bit in return. Everybody wins.
| adultSwim wrote:
| Keep it up! I'm sticking with Thinkpads until Linux support
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Also they have matte screens and real keyboards.
|
| The 2015MBP one was the last one that was passable for me, what
| came after is horrible. Even the new MBP that has real ports
| again is still not as good as the 2015 in terms of keyboard.
| sneak wrote:
| All currently shipping Macbook Airs and Pros have a keyboard
| that is, as far as I can tell, identical to the great one
| from 2015 that we love. They switched them all back after the
| butterfly keyboard fiasco, but hardware pipelines are 2-4
| years deep and it took a while.
| gsora wrote:
| Thinkpad keyboards are great (I own a couple T400's and used
| to daily drive a X61s), but the latest MacBook Pros have
| real, actually good keyboards afaik too.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I've tried them but they're nowhere near Lenovo quality
| sadly. Unfortunately Lenovo is on a downward trend with
| ever less travel with each generation so I guess they'll be
| on par in a few years :(
| girvo wrote:
| That is indeed the trend, for basically all
| manufacturers. For my part, it's not too much of a worry
| -- I barely use my laptops keyboard directly, thats what
| my custom mechanical keeb is for, after all. The laptop
| being thin, light, and powerful is important to me
| (otherwise I'll just use a desktop). I despise my work
| laptop (a Metabox/rebranded Clevo 15" thing), as it is
| huge, thick, _and_ has a terrible keyboard when I 'm
| forced to use it.
|
| These low-travel ones may not be perfect, but they're
| decent, and that's enough for me personally for the times
| I do need to use it.
| sbuk wrote:
| I can't agree. I have a recent X series, and at this
| point, it's approaching butterfly-keyboard levels of
| unreliability. I've always found the travel to be on the
| spongy side, but this iteration is terrible. Also, my
| trackpad literally has to warm up before it's usable.
| I've tried with the track point, but it just doesn't work
| for me.
| grappler wrote:
| I'm loving seeing the shift from embedding and linking to tweets
| and twitter accounts to embedding and linking to fediverse posts
| and profiles.
| [deleted]
| kaiby wrote:
| > It feels like Rust's design guides you towards good
| abstractions and software designs.
|
| > The compiler is very picky, but once code compiles it gives you
| the confidence that it will work reliably.
|
| > Sometimes I had trouble making the compiler happy with the
| design I was trying to use, and then I realized the design had
| fundamental issues!
|
| I experience a similar sentiment all the time when writing Rust
| code (which for now is admittedly just toy projects). So far it's
| felt like the compiler gives you just enough freedom to write
| programs in a "correct" way.
|
| I don't really do unsafe/lower-level coding, so I can't speak to
| much there however.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Apple should upstream their drivers.
|
| Who is Asahi Lina? Is that an actual person?
| [deleted]
| worldsavior wrote:
| Asahi Lina is a maintainer in Asahi Linux project. She is now
| much known because of the achivement she earned, programming
| the Asahi Linux GPU driver for MacOS.
| Arelius wrote:
| I assume you mean Asahi Linux GPU driver for Mac M1? or does
| this run ontop of MacOS somehow?
| worldsavior wrote:
| Yes I meant for the M1.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Is Asahi Lina a pseudonym? Is Asahi _Linux_ named after her?
| Or is it all one big coincidence?
| nicoburns wrote:
| > Is Asahi Lina a pseudonym?
|
| This one.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Is Asahi Lina a pseudonym?
|
| Yes
|
| > Is Asahi Linux named after her?
|
| Other way around, it's a pseudonym created to work on the
| project, IIRC Lina got involved early-mid 2022 while Hector
| Martin started the project in late 2020 / early 2021.
| mlindner wrote:
| Why does she have so much clout when the latter has been
| working on this for much longer?
|
| I feel like there's some fanboyism happening here. This
| person basically just joined the project.
| mort96 wrote:
| What do you mean by "so much clout"..? She's one of the
| people who decided to work on the Asahi Linux project,
| and she's writing and streaming about the work she's
| doing and participating in mailing lists and IRC
| communities. Is that an unexpected amount of "clout"?
| masklinn wrote:
| They "just joined the project" and reverse engineered and
| developed the kernel drivers from relatively little prior
| work, in just a few months.
|
| From afar they also seem to have a pretty ebullient and
| infectious personality and to stream a lot (we're talking
| 10h streams every few days:
| https://www.youtube.com/@AsahiLina/streams) which is
| impressive work and dedication.
| Rufbdbskrufb473 wrote:
| piperswe wrote:
| [citation needed]
|
| There's been a lot of speculation about this, but I
| haven't seen any damning evidence yet.
| mlindner wrote:
| > The anime character is just what Hector started using
| more often for communicating about the project. It's not
| a different person.
|
| Wait really? So they swapped their gender with a voice
| changer as well? Do you have some evidence of this?
|
| Though it would certainly explain how a developer who
| "just joined" somehow was allowed to co-opt the project
| name without any push back.
| wtallis wrote:
| > Wait really? So they swapped their gender with a voice
| changer as well?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33292198
|
| Please stop trolling on this topic. It's annoying to see
| every thread about Asahi Linux get dragged off topic like
| this.
| mlindner wrote:
| How am I "trolling"? I'm asking honest questions because
| I want to know. What happens more often is that every
| Asahi Linux post gets dragged off topic praising the
| person's greatness in a cult like manner. That's why I
| mentioned "fanboyism" in some other post.
|
| I'd prefer if we kept to technical discussion in these
| posts personally.
| wtallis wrote:
| > I'd prefer if we kept to technical discussion in these
| posts personally.
|
| That's really not what your posting history indicates.
| And bringing up the subject of "fanboyism" is pretty much
| the exact opposite; that's _never_ going to take the
| conversation in a productive direction.
| mlindner wrote:
| Going after "posting history" is already taking things in
| a non-productive direction. If I disliked vtubers I
| wouldn't watch them so much. I have a bigger issue with
| pitch changers as they make listening difficult. Most
| vtubers don't actually use them.
| sliken wrote:
| Their = apple? Their = Asahi Lina's?
|
| Asahi Linux has been upstreaming, but of course it's ongoing.
| The GPU driver in particular depends on some rust inside the
| kernel bits which aren't in the mainline kernel, yet. The 6.1
| kernel has some Rust bits, 6.2 will have more, but I don't
| believe that will be enough for the GPU driver ... yet.
| bitwize wrote:
| mlindner wrote:
| Let's not head down this direction of madness please.
|
| I've followed Japanese vtubers for some time and that is
| CERTAINLY not the case. Vtubers are just aliases for the real
| person. And each person picks and chooses how much they blend
| their real lives into that alias.
|
| There are even some vtubers that will have a camera facing on
| themselves while they stream as a vtuber (for example stream
| their body, but not their face) or will alternate streams
| between a vtuber persona and a real live camera or vtubers
| who stream as a vtuber but the real person behind the vtuber
| is an open secret (i.e. artists who engage in vtubing but
| sell artwork at comic conventions attending as a real
| person). There's a huge range and spectrum of ways people
| choose to do vtubing.
|
| (Note: A lot of the latter cases are more possible in Japan
| because of the general social/legal concept there that taking
| pictures of people without their permission is at least
| extremely rude and sometimes also illegal if you don't blur
| their face when publishing it. This is helped by the fact
| that it's a legal requirement that all devices capable of
| taking photographs must make a photographing noise when doing
| so. For example on iPhone in Japan it is impossible to
| silence the shutter sound effect without modifying the device
| hardware.)
| astrange wrote:
| > This is helped by the fact that it's a legal requirement
| that all devices capable of taking photographs must make a
| photographing noise when doing so.
|
| That's not a legal requirement, it's a carrier request.
|
| > For example on iPhone in Japan it is impossible to
| silence the shutter sound effect without modifying the
| device hardware.
|
| That now turns off once you take them out of the country
| though.
| mlindner wrote:
| Things must have changed in recent years, as it must have
| absolutely started out as a mandatory legal requirement.
| From my understanding it dates to some of the earliest
| digital cameras that didn't have shutter noises built-in
| and has nothing to do with carriers.
| astrange wrote:
| I believe that's true in Korea (or at least the govt
| regulators ask for it) but it's always been a carrier
| cartel thing in Japan.
|
| https://articles.inqk.net/2018/02/09/japan-iphone-
| shutter.ht...
| mlindner wrote:
| That goes against everything I've ever heard on the
| subject and I don't recognize this site. Also if it was a
| carrier reason, wouldn't the sound appear if you were
| roaming in Japan? It doesn't.
| astrange wrote:
| You haven't heard of Buzzfeed Japan? You're welcome to
| try to find the law though.
|
| > Also if it was a carrier reason, wouldn't the sound
| appear if you were roaming in Japan? It doesn't.
|
| If it was geofenced you could disable it by putting it in
| airplane mode, so it's by purchase country instead. (On
| recent phones it does turn off if you leave Japan
| though.)
| tgcordell wrote:
| I understood deadnaming to generally pertain to gender
| identity. I don't think it's far-fetched to initially
| consider Asahi Lina's name as a Pseudonym/Alias/Pen-Name, as
| many creatives (authors, artists, musicians) have been doing
| for hundreds of years.
|
| If it is a gender identity decision, I still don't view it as
| malicious for the OP to ask. The context just isn't there in
| the blog post to make that clear.
| wincy wrote:
| I think it's a vTuber anime persona of a very talented
| programmer or something?
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| And, sorry for continuing this thread, what is a "vTuber
| anime persona"?
| bogeholm wrote:
| vTuber = virtual YouTuber (YouTube as genericized term for
| "video platform", as in Xerox for copying)
|
| Anime = Japanese cartoon style
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTuber
| wincy wrote:
| It's like a full time filter where the only online identity
| someone presents is as an anime girl. I think it was
| popularized by a company called HoloLive that has Japanese
| girls do this as a full time job? It's a VERY niche culture
| thing.
|
| Check out the Asahi Lina channel to see what I mean.
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LonzMviFCNs
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| Surprisingly it is not that niche anymore - for example,
| the hololive subreddit has 800,000 subscribers which is
| about half of the hockey subreddit.
| mlindner wrote:
| Yes but none of them are using voice changing that makes
| it hard to listen to. They all speak in their natural
| voices or with a natural manual affect that they prefer
| to put on, something that computers don't seem to be able
| to replicate yet.
|
| I watch Japanese vtubers quite a lot and enjoy doing so,
| but I couldn't personally listen to Lina as the voice
| sounds grating on the ears.
| masklinn wrote:
| Do all subscribers to team subreddits follow the main sub
| as well though? Because I assume fans follow "their"
| teams' subreddit, and there's several in the 100k range.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| I think most fans subscribe to the "main" sub (r/hocket,
| nba, baseball, etc) for general league news and
| discussion in addition to team subs.
|
| Hololive functions in a similar way - the most popular
| members have their own subreddits in addition to the main
| hololive sub.
| astrange wrote:
| Ironmouse is the most popular female streamer on Twitch
| (by subs). Pekora is in the top 5 most watched female
| streamers worldwide (by viewer-hours).
|
| It's not needed for guys apparently, but it's not niche.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| It doesn't have to be a anime girl. There are also a few
| male vtubers. Bubi and Lord Aethalstan beeing examples.
| psychphysic wrote:
| One of those threads where you comment and more questions
| are raised that feel almost irrelevant.
|
| From what I have gleaned, vTuber is a virtual YouTuber. The
| streams use an anime model a s behaviour.
|
| So we've no idea who it is.
|
| And for some reason I feel creeped out now. There is
| something perturbing about the saccharin persona coupled
| with the pseudonym.
|
| Like Pennywise (It) vibes?
| sjf wrote:
| I feel like I am going to regret this post, but anyway...
|
| I am a woman in tech, and the whole thing feels slimy. I
| found it really creepy and couldn't watch more than a
| couple of minutes- I couldn't tolerate the voice changer
| for longer than that. But the whole concept is kinda
| gross because (as someone else pointed out below) the
| streamer is most likely an adult man, not a cute asian
| girl. And the persona is being performed for the benefit
| of other adult men.
| claudiawerner wrote:
| >the streamer is most likely an adult man, not a cute
| asian girl
|
| I can't see why that makes it "kinda gross"; in fact,
| playing with identity and having the courage to do so in
| a whimsical way seems awesome. To have the security in
| oneself to put on a persona so different to the one we
| are in meatspace is one of the best inventiont of the
| 'net in my opinion. The possibilities are freeing.
|
| On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
|
| >And the persona is being performed for the benefit of
| other adult men.
|
| What possible 'benefit' do they get out of it? Do we know
| if these "other adult men" leer at the persona? And if
| so, so what? So long as the person behind the persona
| isn't be harrassed. It's strange that this sentence is
| implicitly stating that something done for the benefit of
| adult men is wrong _in itself_.
| masklinn wrote:
| > From what I have gleaned, vTuber is a virtual YouTuber.
| The streams use an anime model a s behaviour.
|
| Yes, basically instead of streaming as themselves vTubers
| stream as a persona, usually with an anime-style virtual
| avatar.
|
| > And for some reason I feel creeped out now. There is
| something perturbing about the saccharin persona coupled
| with the pseudonym.
|
| I've not found a vTuber I enjoyed (but the main vTuber
| community is japanese and japanese TV / entertainment
| is... a lot, and not my cup of tea).
|
| However how is "Asahi Lina" and an animated cartoon
| avatar creepier than psychphysic and a random picture or
| manga snip on a forum 15 or 20 years ago? As far as I'm
| concerned it's the same principle moved from the media of
| text and images to that of audio and video.
| psychphysic wrote:
| > However how is "Asahi Lina" and an animated cartoon
| avatar creepier than psychphysic and a random picture or
| manga snip on a forum 15 or 20 years ago?
|
| That's a really good question and I only have a cop-out
| answer.
|
| I'm not the type to get the creeps.
|
| But the immediate thought I had and commented else where
| was of Pennywise.
|
| Which is really quite alarming!
|
| I think the core was that Asahi in my mind is quite
| infantilised and the realisation that the person behind
| the persona is quite likely to be adult man.
|
| Nothing particularly predatory here, but there is still a
| feeling of a false sense of security.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > Nothing particularly predatory here, but there is still
| a feeling of a false sense of security.
|
| What danger could an online persona possibly present to
| you? "[...]a false sense of security" implies there's a
| danger
| psychphysic wrote:
| There's no point thinking of this as a cognition the
| pilomotor response is a reflex.
|
| One that evolved before the dinosaurs were wiped out.
|
| I can only tell you my feelings, thoughts and emotions.
| Feel free to come up with a better explanation!
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| I think any first reaction is always an entirely fair
| first reaction. Biases exist. Snap judgements exist. No
| point in pretending otherwise.
|
| I think like with anything "new", life is always about
| disconfirming our biases. As a result, now that you're
| aware of this bias, have the additional time and can
| access System 2:
|
| Going forward you find a way to have a less aggressive
| reaction to learning about a the next VTuber.
| psychphysic wrote:
| I almost certainly won't.
|
| Unless this stuff goes entirely mainstream I will just
| avoid it.
|
| This is the first time I've watched this kind of
| livestream and as well has as making my teeth itch with
| creepiness, not being an efficient means of conveying the
| topic it is boring.
|
| I guess I'm older than the average HN user but I prefer
| reading to watching a video for education.
| rvz wrote:
| ccouzens wrote:
| Assuming it is the case I don't think it's polite to share
| this information. I don't know their motivation for creating
| a separate public image, but I think we should respect their
| decision to do so by not connecting them.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| The Linux kernel does not accept anonymous contributions
| due to legal reasons.
|
| https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/1.Intro.html
|
| > It is imperative that all code contributed to the kernel
| be legitimately free software.
|
| > For that reason, code from anonymous (or pseudonymous)
| contributors will not be accepted.
|
| > All contributors are required to "sign off" on their
| code, stating that the code can be distributed with the
| kernel under the GPL.
|
| > Code which has not been licensed as free software by its
| owner, or which risks creating copyright-related problems
| for the kernel (such as code which derives from reverse-
| engineering efforts lacking proper safeguards) cannot be
| contributed.
| saagarjha wrote:
| I expect Asahi Lina to be more than happy to assign
| copyright to an appropriate entity to contribute it
| upstream.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > Apple should upstream their drivers.
|
| Apple don't have linux drivers. It would be great if they wrote
| some, but it's never going to happen.
|
| > Who is Asahi Lina? Is that an actual person?
|
| The virtual persona of an actual person who has chosen to
| remain anonymous (hence the name which would be a crazy
| coincidence otherwise).
| robocat wrote:
| While anonymous, they did put in some personal information at
| 10 minutes into: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LonzMviFCNs
|
| They are Canadian born, currently studying in Japan, so that
| explains some of the cultural mix.
| Phelinofist wrote:
| I always thought that she was an umbrella persona for
| marcan and alyssa or is the backstory just for the Lina
| persona?
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > Who is Asahi Lina? Is that an actual person?
|
| Man... if I was a conspiracy theorist who believed Apple was
| genuinely evil, what if Asahi Lina is an Apple employee? ;)
| embedded3 wrote:
| Apple has pushed OS updates to help the Asahi team, though
| they did not publicize this, of course.
| unicornporn wrote:
| Source for this claim?
| plonk wrote:
| You got downvoted unfairly, asking for sources is totally
| normal.
| spoils19 wrote:
| Commenting on the fairness of votes is against the HN
| commenting guidelines.
| sbuk wrote:
| This has been long established. marcan_42 has repeatedly
| posted about this here, on twitter and reddit to name a
| few locations.
| chris_wot wrote:
| It might be "long established" but plenty of people
| didn't know this, including me.
| sbuk wrote:
| chris_wot wrote:
| Hi, this is HN. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for
| sources. There isn't any need to be so hostile.
| sbuk wrote:
| Depends on the context. The OP, IMO, was being passive-
| aggressive, almost incredulous.
|
| As I said, every time anything comes up about Asahi, it
| is guaranteed that at least two threads will occur. This
| and comment about the vTuber. At this point - 2 years
| after the project began - it adds little value to the
| conversation, to the extent that the project lead, who
| was previously very active here, doesn't contribute
| anymore.
| ddingus wrote:
| Sometimes it's good to ask. One may get additional
| context that way. And if that happens, it's a good thing.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29591578
| [deleted]
| dboreham wrote:
| > Apple should upstream their drivers.
|
| To what upstream project?
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| i can only assume the poster meant apple should add linux
| drivers of M1/m2 to mainline linux kernel
| squarefoot wrote:
| I'm not sure Apple would want users to run anything but
| Apple operating systems on their hardware, and the other
| way around (fighting against hackintoshes back in the day).
| I hope to be proven wrong though, as their hardware is
| really interesting.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| > (fighting against hackintoshes back in the day)
|
| Apple doesn't really care about individual hackintoshers.
| Some of their devs have griped about the uselessness of
| stack traces and logs coming in from hackintoshed
| machines (bogus errors produced by slight hardware
| mismatches, drivers developed by amateur community
| members filling logs with garbage, etc) but they've never
| gone after anybody who was hackintoshing for personal
| use. There's even been fairly big YouTubers who've done
| it without issue, and back when Macs were Intel only and
| had abysmal thermals/performance a surprising number of
| Mac/iOS devs were using hackintoshes as their primary dev
| machines that they submitted to the App Store with.
|
| Where they draw the line is _selling_ hackintoshed
| machines or any of the tools to facilitate the process.
| Eliminate financial gain from the equation and you 'll
| probably be fine.
| hot_gril wrote:
| They've never taken issue with other OSes running on
| their hardware. They made Boot Camp for Intel Mac users
| to run Windows and wrote Windows drivers to use Apple-
| specific hardware like the iSight cameras. They even
| showcased this feature in the TV ads. Linux also worked
| but wasn't explicitly supported.
|
| The rule is only, no macOS on non-Apple hardware.
| izacus wrote:
| > They've never taken issue with other OSes running on
| their hardware.
|
| What on earth are you talking about, iPads, iPhones and
| all other new devices from Apple outright lockout any
| kind of 3rd party OS from booting on them.
|
| MacBooks are the only ones grandfathered into old
| behaviour of actually allowing 3rd party OSes (although
| they've also lost the ability to boot Windows in latest
| generation as well).
| sbuk wrote:
| It's clear the context of the whole thread is Apple's OS
| X/macOS based lineage of machines. Also, they _haven 't_
| lost the ability to boot Windows, seemingly due to
| licensing issues with Qualcomm, Microsoft hasn't offered
| a Windows port yet. Of course, one couldn't boot directly
| into Windows from the previous generation of PowerPC
| based Macs either...
| izacus wrote:
| "They've never taken issue with other OSes running on
| their hardware." is a false statement even within context
| of this thread. They've thanken issue with other OSes on
| their hardware.
| sbuk wrote:
| Is it any different to the false statement that is
| "(although they've also lost the ability to boot Windows
| in latest generation as well)"? The last line
| specifically refers to macOS. No need to be deliberately
| obtuse.
| rjsw wrote:
| I thought someone had posted here that Apple ran Linux on
| their hardware for manufacturing tests.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Hector Martin claims so which (frankly) suggests he has
| some insiders.
|
| _However,_ just because Apple "runs linux" doesn't mean
| they "run linux" the way you are thinking. It's very easy
| for corporations to write slapdash, horrific,
| unmaintainable kernel forks that run on a specific piece
| of hardware. That's just fine when you are testing
| hardware before handing it to your OS team, but
| absolutely unacceptable for upstreaming.
|
| For examples of this, take a look at old Android devices
| (and their ancient kernels), or the original Correlium
| port of Linux to Apple Silicon (which happened almost
| half a year before the Asahi Linux beta - but the code
| was sheer unmaintainable crap). Upstream it? Heck no - it
| would be rejected entirely and need almost a total
| rewrite from scratch. Just because you can write a
| functional driver doesn't mean it is anywhere close to a
| good, maintainable driver.
|
| So, in a nutshell... yes, Apple does use Linux for early
| manufacturing tests. But it would almost certainly not be
| in a state where we could benefit much from it, and
| certain features would likely not be implemented. It's
| not anywhere near as simple as "Apple has done the work
| already - just upstream it please!"
| svenpeter wrote:
| IIRC we know about their internal Linux port because of
| some comment left in the open source XNU release.
| monocasa wrote:
| > Hector Martin claims so which (frankly) suggests he has
| some insiders.
|
| Eh, I've heard the same thing form people I trust, and
| I'm not the Apple news version of deep throat or
| something. It's simply not a very well kept secret.
|
| Although part of me wonders if the code will flow the
| other way. Now that marcan has put in the elbow grease to
| upstream concepts like 16KB pages, the non standard
| ordering for regular MMIO and PCI on Apple Silicon, etc,
| will Apple embrace those in their custom distro to avoid
| having so much un-upstreamed code? We'll probably never
| find out, but it's fun to think about.
| p_l wrote:
| 16kB pages weren't too hard to get running before, iirc,
| it's just that most devices people care about went to
| 64kB.
|
| Generally linux is happy unless you try to make pages
| smaller than 4kB,then all sorts of hell break lose in VFS
| saagarjha wrote:
| Linux is generally fine with 16K pages; userspace
| programs often are not.
| antihero wrote:
| The Linux kernel
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Is Apple/macOS _downstream_ of the Linux kernel?
| hot_gril wrote:
| No it's not
| tiagod wrote:
| >Asahi Lina, our GPU kernel sourceress. Lina joined the team to
| reverse engineer the M1 GPU kernel interface, and found herself
| writing the world's first Rust Linux GPU kernel driver. When
| she's not working on the Asahi DRM kernel driver, she sometimes
| hacks on open source VTuber tooling and infrastructure.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > Apple should upstream their drivers.
|
| Apple's drivers _are_ upstreamed, in Darwin. I 'm not aware of
| any reason to believe that Apple has any Linux drivers that
| they could upstream.
| nicoburns wrote:
| The m1n1 hypervisor specialised for debugging is a pretty genius
| idea. Is anyone aware of anyone else taking a similar approach?
| Seems like it would be a pretty generally applicable technique
| and would make OS/hardware driver development a lot more
| approachable.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Not that I know of. m1n1 originated from software that (IIRC)
| was used initially for reverse-engineering the Wii.
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| Idea wise actually S/360 run on hardware microcode and all
| these idea of virtual machine and hypervisor came from an
| unauthorised development called CP67 or later VM. IBM used it
| for development MVS etc. as some hardware is yet to be built
| for certain features.
|
| But the modern day these development is crazy.
|
| How can yo manage a 100+ structure in a language you just
| learnt (Rust) for a secret GPU the vendor does not share info.
| bri3d wrote:
| Even before true CPU-supported "hypervisors," there was shim
| software like SoftICE that worked similarly to m1n1 in that you
| would run an OS underneath and then use a supervisor tool to
| trace and debug the OS under inspection.
|
| More recently, it's fairly common to use a hypervisor or
| simulator for kernel debugging in device driver development on
| Windows via Hyper-V.
|
| A lot of Linux driver development is done using qemu as well,
| although this is usually more targeted and isn't quite the same
| "put a thin shim over the OS running on the hardware" approach.
|
| The flexibility and I/O tracing framework in m1n1 are pretty
| uniquely powerful, though, since it was built for reverse
| engineering specifically.
| hedgehog wrote:
| Some developers used user mode Linux for driver development,
| and I think some development has happened on the NetBSD rump
| kernel more recently. I find the work that goes into building
| this kind of tooling all pretty impressive.
| averne_ wrote:
| The nouveau project used a kernel module to intercept mmio
| accesses: https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/MmioTrace.html.
| Generally speaking hooking onto driver code is one of the
| preferred ways of doing dynamic reverse engineering. For
| userspace components, you can build an LD_PRELOAD stub that
| logs ioctls, and so on.
| neonsunset wrote:
| This looks to be very impressive and interesting but the writing
| style makes it an incredibly aggravating slog to get through.
| psychphysic wrote:
| What an interesting tale. But I feel like an anime character
| described it to me.
|
| I'm totally fine with it (I'm grateful the story is being told at
| all), but it is surreal tone for technical writing.
| qrio2 wrote:
| pretty much the appeal(?) of asahi lina. it's been a weird ride
| to follow for sure.
| throwntoday wrote:
| Have to say as much as I want to watch their streams, I can't
| get passed the annoying voice.
| psychphysic wrote:
| I had a quick look and the streams it made the hair stand
| up on the back of my neck.
|
| Not in a good way. The write up wasn't so bad but the
| entire package is too much for me.
| ddoolin wrote:
| I went and checked out the YouTube video attached to one
| of the tweets. Just...wow. I see what you mean.
| ge96 wrote:
| Yeah... I was hoping to passively watch it, maybe gleam
| something but yeah.
|
| The other thing too, watching other people code is kind of
| not fun like George or Rene. More fun to see some
| screeching video with no actual info just the end result of
| a robot pissing in a cup.
|
| Also goes to show how much work goes into writing
| code/having some end result. Maybe it will get more
| exposure since there is a growing trend for vtuber stuff.
| throwntoday wrote:
| You don't like watching George? His coding streams always
| get me hyped enough to work on my own projects.
| ge96 wrote:
| The stuff he works on and OP above is beyond my current
| level/field. I wouldn't really watch it to follow along
| rather just for the company/background noise. Maybe
| learning something in the process. Currently I don't
| watch anyone regularly for code.
|
| I get it though, I used to watch Social Network or
| Silicon Valley to hype myself up to pursue something. Now
| my problem is too many projects ha.
| hallarempt wrote:
| Fair enough. I cannot get past your typo.
| mlindner wrote:
| I've said the same but I got flagged on hacker news for
| saying it. I'm not quite sure why it's an objectionable
| thing to say.
| Philip-J-Fry wrote:
| This shouldn't be controversial to say, but it's blatantly
| obvious that it's a voice changer.
| TreeRingCounter wrote:
| IshKebab wrote:
| Duh. Doesn't mean it's not annoying af.
| [deleted]
| westmeal wrote:
| Yeah it's way too high pitched. They must have a pretty
| deep voice.
| 91edec wrote:
| My headcannon is that Asahi Lina is actually Marcan since
| they both have a Spanish accent/twang.
| Phelinofist wrote:
| At least in the videos I watched I found the speech
| pattern (like the talking speed) to match marcans, if you
| e.g. compare it to his presentation with fail0verflow at
| C3 for the PS3 hack or some of his streams. But that is
| also speculation ofc.
| renox wrote:
| Bah I've watched some of Jon Blow's videos on Jay, even
| though he's much more pleasant to watch on video, it's
| still annoying: a normal blog would be so much more
| 'efficient'.
| amelius wrote:
| > But I feel like an anime character described it to me.
|
| Mario Brothers would make more sense though. Whoever created
| this is a plumber par excellence.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| The quantity of exclamation points lol. I assume I'm just too
| old to get it...I'm okay with that, and I'm damn impressed with
| the results, so more power to Lina, whatever works for her.
| kelnos wrote:
| Yeah, it's just... sorry, but there is nothing in the world
| so exciting that 149 exclamation points (thanks to another
| poster for counting) is warranted.
|
| When every statement is exciting and special, then none of
| them are.
| sneak wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that M1 Linux GPU drivers are indeed that
| exciting. Being able to ditch the ever-increasing burden of
| keeping macOS from telling the Cupertino mothership every
| single little thing I do on my Mac for a proper Linux
| desktop on the best laptop ever made (I have a maxed out
| 64gb/8tb M1 max rMBP) is... exciting, to put it mildly.
| girvo wrote:
| _shrugs_ I 'm getting old these days, but to me those
| exclamation points helped convey the tone the writer was
| chasing. I read the article, then watched one of the VODs
| of their streaming, and what do you know: the inner tone I
| heard while reading the article matched how they talk!
|
| But perhaps I'm biased: I write how I talk too, and use and
| abuse punctuation to attempt to mimic my own voice.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Not as surreal as an actual presentation by an anime character.
| WTF is going on here?
|
| https://youtu.be/SDJCzJ1ETsM?t=1179
|
| How can people watch this?
| DarmokJalad1701 wrote:
| I just tried watching this with a Pitch Shifter Chrome
| extension. The voice goes from grating to just ... bad audio,
| at the lowest possible setting - which is far more tolerable
| than the original. I may need to go and edit the extension to
| turn down the pitch even more.
| treesknees wrote:
| There are 149 exclamation points on that page (!)
| jbuzbee wrote:
| I was just getting ready to say the same thing and was
| wishing for a plugin that would replace all exclamation
| points with a period. That would make reading much easier
| staunch wrote:
| I suspect a certain Elaine Benes may have been the editor on
| this post!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSKn8RlD7Is
| ddingus wrote:
| Would that not mean general excitement on the part of the
| author?
|
| I find it hard to analyze these things by numbers alone. It's
| context that really matters and if there truly is a baseline
| excitement, there really should be a high number of
| exclamations.
| treesknees wrote:
| It can in moderation, but there's a phenomenon that people
| (often women) in communications overuse exclamation points,
| trying to come across as friendly and not assertive [1][2].
| It's something I've noticed in my professional career, and
| not me trying to make a stereotype. You start to tip that
| usage too far, like 149 of them in a technical document,
| and it detracts from your content.
|
| >A bunch of shader cores, which process triangles (vertex
| data) and pixels (fragment data) by running user-defined
| programs. These use different custom instruction sets for
| every GPU!
|
| Why are different instruction sets exciting to the author?
| What does exclaiming that fact really mean for me as the
| reader? What I got out of it was the author was so
| surprised by this basic fact, that it was so out of this
| world unbelievable, that we also must be surprised by it.
| I'd rather read technical explanations with
| leadership/competence.
|
| [1] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/women-exclamation-
| points-emil...
|
| [2] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1083
| -6101...
| ddingus wrote:
| These meta discussions can be illuminating.
|
| The intent I got was the idea of all the GPU instruction
| sets being different is notable, and perhaps unexpected
| and at the least challenging. The latter being an
| exclamation in the context of reverse engineering makes
| some degree of sense to communicate the fundamental
| difficulty inherent in this effort.
|
| Now, we could go back and forth a few more times, invite
| friends and curious others to the party and end up with
| many different takes on this text.
|
| What's the takeaway?
|
| For me, it's lack of judgement. Content is king. I want
| to know what others mean to say and how they feel about
| it. I don't want to judge them on those things because
| what exactly is the point?
|
| Make things better for me?
|
| ...better for people like me?
|
| ...people in general? Doubt that given the diversity of
| takes the experiment above would generate.
|
| Waste of time. That's the takeaway.
|
| And to press that idea home somewhat more, when I talk to
| other people, not text, but talking, I find diversity
| beautiful. Some are stoic. Some are bitter, jaded well
| worn solders. Others are excitable. Funny? Yup.
|
| I submit you cost yourself more wondering why they don't
| conform than ever getting the answer is worth. Further,
| taking their intent in a more liberal, forgiving sense
| will get you to the good stuff others intend to share
| more quickly and efficiently. Plus, you might laugh a
| little.
|
| I do. And it's enjoyable.
|
| When I read the piece, I enjoyed feeling a bit of the
| joy, excitement, frustrations experienced by the authors
| and that amplified the good in all of it a little. Great!
| They did have one heck of an adventure after all.
|
| Finally, you mention women overusing exclamation points.
| Maybe they are just being women? Just putting that out
| there.
|
| I am pretty sure if we were to take a poll of those of us
| who are women as to whether being one is OK would trend
| to a definitive yes. The ones I know well tend to have a
| lot of fun and more colorful, rich relationships too.
| Kind of envy that personally.
|
| I think it is OK to be a woman. After all, being a guy, I
| tend to be a guy. Why would women play it any
| differently?
|
| Thoughts for you to consider.
|
| Cheers! <-- Exclamation intended to convey a general
| upbeat mood, hoping it's catchy.
| bmicraft wrote:
| Usually I get annoyed by that, but in this case I read the
| whole thing and didn't even notice. It helps that they didn't
| come in "packages" bigger than 1.
| rychco wrote:
| I'm actually very happy about the rise of VTubers/live avatars.
| I imagine that there are a lot of people that would love to
| _interactively_ share their knowledge /skills on youtube/twitch
| but avoid doing so because they're not conventionally
| attractive or just too shy.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| > I imagine that there are a lot of people that would love to
| interactively share their knowledge/skills on youtube/twitch
| but avoid doing so because they're not conventionally
| attractive or just too shy.
|
| Couldn't they just not show themselves on camera at all?
| rychco wrote:
| True but this is likely less engaging for the audience,
| which has been my experience.
| sph wrote:
| This is when I repeat my silly joke that I'd rather see
| Skeletor doing live coding than another anime girl with
| pitched upvoice.
|
| Enough furries and anime girls, people. They are cute,
| but there is more to animated art
| gpm wrote:
| Project idea: Take something that looks like a mindflayer
| (d&d art with tentacles around it's mouth) and use it for
| live coding.
|
| Instead of displaying a mouse and cursor have the
| tentacles reach out and manipulate the code from behind a
| semi-transparent pane of glass that the code is displayed
| on.
| rodgerd wrote:
| Be the change you want to see in the world, then.
| 91edec wrote:
| Live coding with an animated 40k Ork is something I never
| knew I wanted.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| But what about people that hate the "twitchification" of
| media? I don't like when youtubers I enjoy watching switch to
| streaming and then all their content is identical "poggers"
| chat and donation begging garbage. Streamers all feel the
| same, regardless of the content. I don't feel there's any
| value to a hundred instances of a stupid emoji streaming by
| in a """chat""" window, and everything just feels like
| attention whoring "pick me" nonsense.
|
| Vinesauce has been streaming since well before twitch, and
| their content got significantly more "Twitch"-y after they
| embraced the current system. It's obvious why, because if you
| play into the chat begging, the surface level
| """interaction""", then you get more money from the
| parasocial twelve year olds with mom's credit card.
|
| But I don't want my content full of ten second interruptions
| as a robot voice reads off the same tired joke somebody paid
| ten dollars to get read off.
| levesque wrote:
| Donations and twitch emerged as funding mechanisms because
| Youtube ads are not providing enough revenue for the vast
| majority of content creators out there.
| jacoblambda wrote:
| that's all a choice of the streamer. some streamers choose
| to have TTS (text to speech) but a lot don't. Twitch is bad
| about TTS in particular but it's far less common on the
| youtube side of streaming.
|
| Doubly so the twitch chat is going to mirror the streamer.
| So if the streamer is being a goon and playing up the
| twitch culture, you'll get twitch chat. But you can also
| have a very different chat experience if you establish from
| the get go that chat is to behave a specific way.
| rodgerd wrote:
| > But what about people that hate the "twitchification" of
| media?
|
| Well, when those people put months of their lives into
| reverse-engineering a reliable stack of code for an
| undocumented platform, and want to do presentations and
| write-ups of their work, those people can decide to present
| however they want.
|
| In the meantime maybe people who are contributing precisely
| nothing can STFU about the people who are.
| tiahura wrote:
| Is anyone porting the GPU driver to Windows?
| raverbashing wrote:
| MS or Apple can port it themselves, but I think there's not so
| much interest on the Apple side
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| Keep an eye on this project:
| https://github.com/amarioguy/m1n1_windows
| monocasa wrote:
| I think there's larger barriers to getting windows running on
| Apple Silicon that would need to be addressed first.
|
| For one example, Windows ARM kernels are pretty tied to the GIC
| (ARM's reference interrupt controller), but Apple has its own
| interrupt controller. Normally on ntoskrnl this distinction
| would simply need hal.dll swapped out, but I've heard from
| those who've looked into it that the clean separation has
| broken down a bit and you'd have to binary patch a windows
| kernel now if you don't have source access.
| my123 wrote:
| hal.dll no longer exists on Windows. It's just a stub for
| backwards compat now.
|
| What you can do is having a small hypervisor to simulate the
| needed bits...
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Apple Silicon doesn't use GIC, but uses AIC (Apple Interrupt
| Controller).
|
| "Apple designed their own interrupt controller, the Apple
| Interrupt Controller (AIC), not compatible with either of the
| major ARM GIC standards. And not only that: the timer
| interrupts - normally connected to a regular per-CPU
| interrupt on ARM - are instead routed to the FIQ, an abstruse
| architectural feature, seen more frequently in the old 32-bit
| ARM days. Naturally, Linux kernel did not support delivering
| any interrupts via the FIQ path, so we had to add that."
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25862077
|
| TL;DR: No standard ARM interrupt controller, custom
| controller requires quirky architectural features
| saagarjha wrote:
| Apple silicon doesn't use GIC, but it has some sort of vGIC
| that I believe the Asahi Linux team is using.
| monocasa wrote:
| Yep, that's essentially what my post says.
|
| My next point was about how the NT kernel was designed to
| handle exactly this kind of change pretty cleanly, but that
| clean barrier has been allowed to stagnate. So way back, NT
| kernels for weird systems like SGI workstations that had
| x86 CPUs but were decidedly not PCs otherwise simply needed
| hal.dll swapped out with a version written by the hardware
| vendor to paper over those system differences like how
| interrupts are routed around and how to access PCI devices.
| That's no longer really an option however.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| You can always just run NT in a VM under Linux:)
| masklinn wrote:
| Porting what?
| [deleted]
| s3p wrote:
| This made me laugh. Had the same question lol.
| abdusco wrote:
| GPU driver. So that one can install Windows on Apple Silicon
| and get accelerated graphics.
| mort96 wrote:
| The GPU driver is an important component for desktop users,
| but it's just one small part of what you need to bring
| Linux to these machines. There's a ton of work in all kinds
| of other areas, down to changes in the core of the kernel.
| A GPU driver for Windows won't do you any good without all
| those other drivers.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| It would take more than a GPU Driver, or actually, drivers
| at all.
|
| Windows has some behavior that is hard-coded and cannot be
| changed except by Microsoft. This behavior can fairly
| easily be bent on Linux, but Windows drivers can't bend the
| rules for some of these issues.
|
| The biggest issue that immediately comes to mind is that
| the M1 MMU (Memory Management Unit) only can handle 16K
| pages. Linux can easily be built for 16K, and _most_
| programs work on 16K, but Windows currently only supports
| 4K on ARM. No driver can fix that - only Microsoft. Of
| course, if Microsoft joins the Apple Silicon train (which
| Apple has said they are _more than welcome_ to do), then
| they probably will have official Apple documentation and
| not need the Asahi Linux findings.
| fulafel wrote:
| In https://asahilinux.org/2022/03/asahi-linux-alpha-
| release/ it says that 4k pages work on the HW but 16k has
| tome advantages. Dropping 4k page size supporrt would
| imply a departure from arm architecture compatibility
| compatibility I think, it might have also nontechnical
| problems (ARM license).
| my123 wrote:
| The arm spec allows to have machines that implement any
| of 4KB, 16KB, or 64KB granules or any combination
| thereof. Apple shipped plenty of phone SoCs that didn't
| support 4KB pages for the CPU (A9->A13).
| fulafel wrote:
| Interesting - at first this didn't seem to be detailed in
| the popular (Wikipedia etc) or ARM web pages I could find
| but it seems it was about terminlogy, "translation
| granule" was the right one and then you can find mentions
| like "The granule sizes that a processor supports are
| IMPLEMENTATION DEFINED".
| gfody wrote:
| is there an easy way to unvoicemod the streams?
| pulvinar wrote:
| Turn on closed-captioning, and mute the sound.
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