[HN Gopher] Americans are choosing to be alone, but we should re...
___________________________________________________________________
Americans are choosing to be alone, but we should reverse that
Author : vwoolf
Score : 62 points
Date : 2022-11-26 18:31 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| black_13 wrote:
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| People can't compete with the infinite entertainment quality of
| the phone.
|
| These trends aren't surprising.
| trophycase wrote:
| This and internet addiction are definitely more responsible
| than people are letting on. Also the unwillingness a lot of
| people have to commit and/or start families. And especially the
| negative marketing done towards women with respect to having
| children.
| standardUser wrote:
| What exactly is the "negative marketing" that you think is
| manipulating women into having fewer children?
| trophycase wrote:
| How it's expensive, how it will ruin your career, how it
| will destroy your body, etc. Talk to gen-Z women, many of
| them are inundated with this kind of thinking.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Hmmm... not sure I would agree.
| coffeefirst wrote:
| "Quality" is a strong word but you're onto something. If
| there's nothing to do at home, you have to go... somewhere. If
| there's endless amusement at home, even if it makes you feel
| dead inside, you can put off the hard work of going out in the
| real world and meeting new people.
|
| So the Internet/streaming becomes a crutch.
| thefz wrote:
| If being alone works for you and it is time you feel you need, do
| it. There is nothing wrong with being an Introvert.
| unpopularopp wrote:
| You are mixing together 3 things which are wildly different
|
| - loneliness
|
| - solitude
|
| - introverts
| jzb wrote:
| This spends a lot of time on stats about how much time alone but
| just seems to rely on the assumption that alone time is bad.
| Where's the backing for _why_ we "should" reverse this?
| altacc wrote:
| There's been a lot of talk recently about effects of loneliness
| and the "loneliness epidemic". What a lot of this lacks,
| including this article, is a good and correct definition of
| loneliness. They seem to use the lazy & inaccurate definition of
| "spending significant time alone", which is very different to
| being lonely. There's a lot of people who are now able to spend
| more time alone than before and are happy with that.
|
| Some of the academics I've heard discussing this define
| loneliness as when a person's social interactions are
| significantly less than their desired amount of social
| interactions. It's an individual's perception, not measured time.
| That seems like a much better measurement as it takes into
| account human variability.
| JohnFen wrote:
| The easiest place to feel lonely is in a big crowd.
| mc32 wrote:
| Another thing is in developed countries with domestic ZPG, like
| US, Japan, Italy, etc. Even if people didn't want to be alone,
| having none or fewer children means necessarily some will be
| alone even if they prefer not to.
| everyone wrote:
| Yes, blessed solitude; medieval writers were often longing for
| it. Personally I am a totally misanthropic reclusive hermit and
| I'm lovin' it!
| makeitdouble wrote:
| It will probably be difficult to have any mainstream support of
| that idea, because allowing people to be alone and think by
| themselves goes against the society we've built for centuries.
|
| Sure, the concept is praised. But even monks were supposed to
| live in small communities.
|
| There's of course the not so cynical take of people not bound
| by networks being harder to rope in a common direction. It's
| supposed to be a virtue, but from a position of power it's a
| pain in the side.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> There's of course the not so cynical take of people not
| bound by networks being harder to rope in a common
| direction._
|
| It's the opposite. People who are isolated are easier to
| control. Populations that are isolated find it harder to
| organize against people in positions of power. If you occupy
| the upper rungs of the societal ladder, you don't _need_ to
| be a part of a social group, because your power (from wealth,
| politics, etc.) can be exercised unilaterally. The only check
| to their power comes from the people on the bottom rungs of
| the ladder banding together.
| jcal93 wrote:
| I agree. There's a big difference in being lonely and being
| alone. There's also a big difference between isolation and
| loneliness. You can be isolated but not lonely, and likewise
| you can be lonely and surrounded by folks.
|
| The other facet here is that it's easier to choose loneliness
| than isolation, though it's less likely to be chosen directly.
| I feel like it's chosen indirectly by choosing avoidance of
| vulnerability. Vulnerability is the price you pay and risk you
| take to ameliorate loneliness.
|
| Hardly anyone can fully become isolated. You have to work to
| live, and so by default you are forcefully un-isolated.
| Loneliness however can come about by avoiding being vulnerable
| with others. Men seem to be particularly susceptible to this
| avenue to loneliness.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| For me a lot of loneliness is emotional distancing from
| others and especially from ourselves.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| Good point. Not forming families or being part of a tight
| community seems to be a start to define it better.
| JamesianP wrote:
| I'd expect there to be a high correlation. People willingly
| choose to spend less time with friends and devote themselves to
| activities when the choice is easy because those activities are
| almost completely fulfilling, except occasionally when they
| aren't fulfilling anymore but the person is still alone.
|
| On the other hand there are people who can't bear to be alone
| at all. Which seems like a different issue.
| [deleted]
| Zababa wrote:
| It is a better definition, but it's still not complete. For
| example, if I'm talking to Fred about a movie we both saw, and
| Fred found it really funny and I found it really tragic, and I
| can't manage to get my point accross, I will feel lonely. That
| means that for me, increasing the amount of social interactions
| can make the problem worse, as that will reinforce that idea in
| my head that I can't be understood by other people.
| EE84M3i wrote:
| I live in a big city, but I'm terribly lonely.
|
| - I live alone. - I work hybrid, but when I go into the office,
| it's more or less empty and I spend all my time on zoom calls. -
| My family lives far away. - I'm single.
|
| Most weeks, my only social interaction is at the local bar, where
| I'm a regular, or various dates from apps. Excesses of both of
| these is unhealthy in different ways.
|
| I've been pushing myself to go to meetups and hobby groups, but
| my hobbies are mostly solo ones (probably a bi-product of
| spending time alone), and I have terrible decision paralysis. It
| ends up being a lot of work, and not at all something I'm excited
| about or that seems _fun_.
|
| I don't really have a solution here, but something tells me I'm
| not alone in being in this situation.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.ph/Mxlj4
| DueDilligence wrote:
| .. advocate of the solitary human here. we do not need to change
| anything. period.
| haunter wrote:
| Not just the US but Europe too.
|
| I'm not religious but more and more I think that church (as an
| institution) had an actual positive effect on local communities.
| At least as a "force" to keep people together, have a community
| space etc. A space where you can meet and talk with others. My
| parents are Anglicans and I always liked the little tea and
| biscuits after each service. These things matter.
| kibwen wrote:
| Yes, churches do have positive effects on the cohesion of a
| community. The problem is that the corruption of the churches
| has countered their positive effects with negative effects and
| soured people on the church as an institution. In theory,
| there's no reason we can't have communities with strong senses
| of cohesion without deferring to a church, but you have to
| actually build such a thing and not merely rely one to spring
| up out of nothing. If you're lucky, perhaps you have a church
| in your community that hasn't been irrevocably co-opted by
| authoritarians.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| It is not just churches, at least in the US there used to be
| all kinds of community groups around different things, these
| all seem to be disappearing. Things like Mens/Womens Fraternal
| Organizations, Miltary / VA organizations, or even something
| like Bowling leagues etc. While none of these have disappeared
| completely it does seem their membership numbers are decreasing
| in a similar way to churches
| makeitdouble wrote:
| As a counterpoint, we still have school (the effect including
| parents), our job, local markets, local bars, local events
| (library talks, festivals, "neighborhood day", national
| holidays celebrations etc).
|
| Occasions to meet people abound for most people interested to,
| and we make a conscious choice to not go, or at least not bound
| in these events to keep people out of our private spheres.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Robert Putnam already explained why this is happening but since
| it's not an acceptable answer, we march on and pretend to be
| mystified.
| Forge36 wrote:
| Can you elaborate on what they said?
| joenot443 wrote:
| I assume he's referring to the book Bowling Alone, an
| excellent read even if its thesis is a bit dated.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| "He then asked: "Why is US social capital eroding?" and
| discussed several possible causes.[1] He believed that the
| "movement of women into the workforce"[1] and other
| demographic changes had an impact on the number of
| individuals engaging in civic associations. He also discussed
| the "re-potting hypothesis", that people become less engaged
| when they frequently move towns, but found that Americans
| actually moved towns less frequently than in previous
| decades.[1][3] He did suggest that suburbanization, economics
| and time pressures had some effect, though he noted that
| average working hours had shortened. He concluded the main
| cause was technology "individualizing" people's leisure time
| via television and the Internet, suspecting that "virtual
| reality helmets" would carry this further in the future.[1]"
|
| Via Wikipedia
| tsol wrote:
| People don't need each other any more. Turns out need was half
| of what brought us together. What is there to do, really?
| happytoexplain wrote:
| >it's not an acceptable answer, we march on and pretend to be
| mystified.
|
| On many social topics, your opinion, expressed with this
| attitude, is almost always not true to the implied extent.
| Usually it's an exaggeration born of bitterness/frustration. In
| this case, the significant issue is not that people "pretend"
| anything or are just idiots who won't accept The Truth. It's
| that they either disagree with a hypothesized reason for the
| problem, or, frequently, agree with the hypothesis but disagree
| with the implied or stated solution, which is much more
| reasonable than the person in the picture you're painting.
| Taikonerd wrote:
| Could you spell out more what you mean?
| torstenvl wrote:
| Presumably https://www.tesd.net/cms/lib/PA01001259/Centricity
| /Domain/11...
| tarboreus wrote:
| Would still like to hear the precis.
| [deleted]
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Ironic given it's from 1995. I assume the WaPo article
| imagines that was a golden age
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Well Putnam's book suggested that it was a longstanding
| trend that just kept getting worse, so each decade would
| be a golden age compared to what came later.
| majormajor wrote:
| So what actions do you propose to reverse it?
| mkl95 wrote:
| My area's birth rate is approaching Japan's. Although this was
| always a bit of a lonely place, being alone is now almost
| unavoidable. Choosing to be alone and being used to being alone
| look and feel like the same thing, but their root cause is
| different.
| cokeandpepsi wrote:
| that's fine, just means there's more ladies for me nerds!
| Zababa wrote:
| > You can help reverse these trends today without waiting for the
| researchers and policymakers to figure it all out. It's the
| holidays: Don't skip Thanksgiving with your family. Go to that
| holiday party (or throw one yourself). Go hang out with friends
| for coffee, or a hike, or in a museum, or a concert -- whatever.
| You will feel better, create memories, boost your health, stumble
| across valuable information -- and so will your companions.
|
| So it's not "we should reverse that" but "you should reverse
| that". I'm always suspicious of text filled with "we", "us" ,
| "our" where the group is never well defined. This is an opinion
| piece, written by an economist, that finds it "safe to assume"
| things. It is also notable that the author never really justifies
| that Americans chose to be alone, they just did.
|
| All in all, I think it's too light to be taken seriously. For
| example, is this the first time in history that people are
| spending more time alone? If not, can we find some events or
| context that caused this? What were the consequences? Did things
| change? How? What breaks my heart is that there's a good chance
| someone, somewhere has spent a lot of time and energy studying
| this topic and sharing the results for everyone to benefit, but
| instead here's a piece trying to make people feel guilty about
| actions they may not have control over.
| notch656a wrote:
| Kind of shocked this trend applied to parents during the
| pandemic. With daycares and schools shut-down I have no idea how
| parents not only got alone time but the trend went upward.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I had coworkers who were desperate for an excuse to go to the
| office during the pandemic to get away from the chaos at home.
| naikrovek wrote:
| the article doesn't seem attribute the desire to be alone to
| anything, other than saying that it got a lot more common during
| the pandemic, but I can say why I prefer to be alone: no
| judgement, no one makes fun of me, no one takes advantage of me,
| and no one steals from me.
|
| the one and only bad thing for me is that being lonely sucks. I
| am not lonely, but I probably will be in a decade's time. being
| alone adds up over time.
|
| there is no such thing as a "friend." there are only people who
| will pretend to be a partner or friend in order to make it easier
| for them to steal from you unnoticed.
|
| people are a toxin and a terrible species of creature.
| [deleted]
| nullish_signal wrote:
| If you always have problems with other people, other people
| aren't the problem
| naikrovek wrote:
| this is exactly the response I expected, and it has been
| delivered right on time.
|
| you have proven my point: humans are assholes, and see
| whatever they need to see to justify how they treat others.
| you have taken 0.5 seconds of time to believe that you have
| figured out my problem, _in it 's entirety_, and then made
| that statement in order to feel superior to me by telling me
| that it's my fault.
|
| do you really, really think that this has not occurred to me?
| that I have not taken steps for years to address it? I have.
| for 20 years I have paid for professional help, and nothing
| in this situation has changed except me.
|
| for some reason, you felt compelled to tell me that you fully
| understand the situation that I am living in and that I do
| not understand the situation I am living in. you are a
| perfect illustration of the problem I am describing.
|
| thanks, I guess. I expected exactly this and you gladly
| provided it.
| kiawe_fire wrote:
| Funny, when discussing many situations such as poverty,
| career opportunities, or physical health issues, negative
| experiences leading to a pessimistic outlook is usually
| accepted, and met with acknowledgement of inequalities or
| systemic issues. Suggesting otherwise is sometimes even
| taboo.
|
| But attempt to share the same kind of experience-informed
| outlook on friendship and sociality, and the same empathy
| is rare. This outlook seems to deeply and profoundly bother
| people who presumably have had positive experiences, and
| the coping mechanism seems to be either insistence on a
| supposed "friendship meritocracy" (just do these things and
| have a happy attitude and you'll find friends!) or by
| skipping straight to vitriol. The response is fascinating
| in its own right, really.
| sethammons wrote:
| > there is no such thing as a "friend." there are only people
| who will pretend to be a partner or friend in order to make it
| easier for them to steal from you unnoticed
|
| Um. No. A thousand times, "no." Yes, there are people that will
| steal from you and there are people who will pretend to be your
| friend. Friends totally exist.
|
| We recently moved and our old neighbors and friends are taking
| care of the yard for us while it sells. For no other reason
| than to help. When we arrived to the new house, a new neighbor
| came over to help unload the truck just to help out. We've been
| here months and aside from casual greetings, that has been the
| extent to our relationship -- not a friend (yet!) and still not
| having other motivations. I help people when and where I can
| whenever. I once had an oncoming car flip and nearly collide
| with me. I stopped, helped them out, and waited for the tow
| truck and gave them a ride home, just because they needed some
| help. I never saw them again.
|
| I'm sorry that your experiences have jaded your view. Know that
| your experiences are not universal. Maybe you need a new
| environment.
| [deleted]
| Zababa wrote:
| I wouldn't go as far as to say that all people are a toxin, but
| a lot are, that's for sure.
| mym1990 wrote:
| Why do you anticipate you will be lonely in a decade's time(but
| not currently)? And do you think you are a toxin based on your
| observation of the general species?
| naikrovek wrote:
| unfortunately, humans are a social species and the toll of
| being alone adds up over time. I try to avoid people so that
| I don't darken their day and they don't darken mine. I
| consider staying away from others a very small gift to them.
|
| people are mean, selfish assholes and are by default
| competitive and adversarial, by nature.
|
| we are a doomed species, and are unworthy of existence, in my
| opinion.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| When in doubt, read some Tolstoy:
|
| https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Twenty-
| three_Tales/Two_Old_...
| tarboreus wrote:
| Sounds like you're in a dark place. I hope things improve.
| mym1990 wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, human history is indeed littered with
| brutal events and these things build further hate for
| future generations, if they choose not to let go of the
| past.
|
| Despite that, the world and the universe has almost
| unlimited beauty, but it is ultimately up to an individual
| person to find and see it.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| When I was walking under a cloud, it really helped year-to-
| year to pay someone to listen and talk through my thoughts
| and feelings.
| naikrovek wrote:
| I'm not under a cloud.
|
| I have paid for therapy for 20 years.
|
| the world is filled to the top with people who lie,
| cheat, and steal, because those things are easier than
| working, waiting, and being nice.
|
| the earth is a hellscape full of people waiting to feed
| on everything you have.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Ah, I see. Well, I hope you find peace and pleasure in
| your solitude.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| That is not a good world view. I imagine you've been through a
| lot to get to the point where you feel like that. Have you
| tried finding a friend group that has a mutual hobby to bond
| over?
| naikrovek wrote:
| it is an accurate world view, in my experience. friends and
| partners are in no way worth it. I lose every time and the
| pain is too much.
|
| how everyone does it is unknown to me. life isn't just hell,
| it's torture. noting gained and constant emotional pain.
| clownworldclown wrote:
| they do it through a lot of medication and anesthetics and
| sedatives that get them through the day
| implements wrote:
| It sounds, and I say this in genuine concern, that you may
| benefit from getting professional help with your mood and
| perceptions.
|
| _[Depression lies to you] "Depression is a chemical
| imbalance in the brain that can have a resounding impact on
| how we view the world and how we think the world views
| us."_
| vasco wrote:
| Hell is other people, heh? You're being downvoted for what I
| think is an obvious reason, but seeing as your comment says
| what it does, maybe you are not aware.
|
| You cannot love without risking a heartbreak, and you cannot
| experience friendship without risking a betrayal or a slow
| drift apart. But a friendship or a love do not have to be
| defined by the fact that they end, or how they end, and instead
| appreciated by the good moments they provide you. Your life
| will also end, and it is not a waste because of that, it is
| still worth living, so I'd encourage you to be more trustworthy
| and enjoy the ride a bit more.
| mym1990 wrote:
| There is absolutely no problem with spending time alone, I
| believe more people should move towards a place where being alone
| isn't anxiety inducing(easier said than done). Taking a walk
| alone(no headphones, just your thoughts), spending a couple hours
| reading a book, going to a restaurant and having a meal by
| yourself, working on a passion project...these things can be
| really liberating!
|
| Instead our collective alone time is spent with faces stuck in
| phones and short form media content, as we constantly compare our
| lives to whatever the latest celebrity is doing, slowly numbing
| ourself to our own potential and uniqueness.
| fdhfdjkfhdkj wrote:
| daemoens wrote:
| The issue is that people are not willingly alone, not that they
| aren't comfortable being alone.
| Archipelagia wrote:
| I the last few years I had to move contries a few times and
| basically rebuild my entire social circle each time - and it made
| me aware how much of finding friends is just a matter of
| logistics. I think that much of the loneliness problem comes down
| to people just not having a process that helps them meet new
| friends.
|
| In most places, there's a surprising amount of events where you
| can meet new people. For me it was open boardgame nights - the
| difficult part was actually beating the inertia and going there,
| but once I did, I think I made about an average of one new friend
| per two outings, as long as I remembered to message them
| afterwards.
| kibwen wrote:
| There really is a massive gulf between small-town friend-making
| strategies and big-city friend-making strategies.
|
| In a small town you can form a friend group by osmosis, because
| there's exactly two churches, exactly two bars, exactly one
| grocery store, so you see everyone regularly and, furthermore,
| you have no choice who to socialize with, and you know everyone
| else also has no choice who to socialize with, so you all might
| as well socialize together and be "friends" even if you don't
| really actually like each other all that much. You'll be
| cordial with everyone, but gossip runs rampant and even your
| best friend might be cruel to you when out of earshot.
|
| In a big city, it's the opposite. You can be desperately lonely
| despite being surrounded by throngs of people at all times. To
| make friends, you have to really try and put yourself out
| there. It's hard. But once you do, you may find it more
| fulfilling, because instead of settling for people who were
| merely there, you've filtered the city to people who share your
| interests and found people who you actually want to be around,
| and you know the people who want to be around you aren't just
| doing it out of a dearth of options. Higher risk, higher
| reward.
| ilaksh wrote:
| A few thoughts:
|
| 1. The internet means we have many forms of entertainment
| available without needing to go anywhere.
|
| 2. Many of those are social activities, even though we are
| physically alone. This is completely different from being totally
| isolated (as implied by the article).
|
| 3. The declining economic situation affects the ability of people
| to pursue leisure activities that would involve actually going
| somewhere that we might meet up with others.
|
| I believe that within a few years, comfortable AR and VR goggles
| and glasses will come out, and they will pick up mass adoption.
| This will lead to a huge increase in social activities, and they
| will be almost equivalent to truly being in person, especially
| once eye-tracking becomes popular. Virtual environments and AR
| teleportation using things like neural radiance fields will be
| quite realistic.
| fdhfdjkfhdkj wrote:
| nullish_signal wrote:
| "The bad economy means you can't meet people in real life. But
| soon, everyone will buy VR goggles and hang out on rented
| servers!"
|
| Am I mis-understanding something here? Just go on a hike,
| walking is free.
| ilaksh wrote:
| Your reply is disingenuous because it implies that you truly
| think that there aren't a large number of social engagements
| that involve purchases. There are, such as restaurants, bars,
| facilities like bowling, trips, etc. Of course people can go
| on a hike. I am saying that the other stuff is less
| accessible for many people during an economic downturn.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| > Just go on a hike, walking is free.
|
| If the webshits on here could work out a way to monetize
| hiking, they will.
| preommr wrote:
| https://blog.onepeloton.com/hike-workouts/
| asdff wrote:
| It won't be long until some drone based sky billboard
| company emerges from the ether, strongarms/bribes local
| government into allowing its exclusive use, and then you
| are tracked as you walk your hiking trail by a herd of
| advertising drones that cost just a dime less than the
| hypothetical number they generate from your annoyed,
| halfway focused attention.
|
| It's coming. I hope some good people here on HN are working
| on an open source 3d printed EMP cannon.
| varelse wrote:
| rossdavidh wrote:
| That is a pretty nightmarish scenario you're predicting, there,
| was that sarcasm?
| ilaksh wrote:
| People didn't read into it fairly, they deliberately misread
| what I was saying. I was not saying that people won't go back
| to meeting in person. I am saying that the online meetings
| will become more realistic.
|
| I probably should not waste time commenting. Total lack of
| imagination or fairness in interpreting comments.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| I find this very hard to believe. Real interactions are so
| rich, how could these goggles even hope to get there in a few
| years?
|
| What is having dinner together if you didn't even eat the same?
| And this is the most banal example I could think of.
|
| I'd sooner become an actual hermit than to share a soggy McD
| burger over VR.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Come on, social interactions will be like all of us at a
| masquerade party. What could be more personal?
| ilaksh wrote:
| No, its not the most banal, its the one that most obviously
| doesn't translate.
|
| Of course its not the same as being in person. But it can be
| much closer than people realize.
|
| As I said, eye-tracking will be built in, so there will be
| eye contact. The environment renderings and avatars will be
| realistic. You can already do really interesting interactions
| such as table tennis and tabletop RPG games such as Demeo.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| This is like optimising porn over actually having sex. It's
| ridiculous.
|
| All the robots and goggles can't hope to recreate the real
| thing.
|
| And this is way harder to solve than dinner.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > 2. Many of those are social activities, even though we are
| physically alone. This is completely different from being
| totally isolated (as implied by the article).
|
| This is also completely different from being physically with
| others.
| guicho271828 wrote:
| What I (non-US) observed:
|
| non-U.S. people when talking about their own medical issues: I
| _have_ this medical issue, I _wonder_ if I should see a doctor,
| the cause may be this.
|
| U.S. people when talking about their own medical issues: I _had_
| this medical issue, I _saw_ a doctor, and the cause was this.
|
| non-U.S. people when talking about their own divorce: I _am_
| thinking about divorcing my wife /husband.
|
| U.S. people when talking about their own divorce: We divorced
| last week.
| dxuh wrote:
| Could you please state your point more explicitly?
| BigRedDog1669 wrote:
| Maybe that people outside the us involve others more in
| decision making and rely on them for support. And in the US
| people decide things on their own and their conversations are
| just storytelling. Not sure if that is what the commenter was
| going for, just a guess
| theknocker wrote:
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-11-26 23:01 UTC)