[HN Gopher] The Citroen Ami - tiny electric car with no boot, 28...
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The Citroen Ami - tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph top speed,
46 mile range
Author : rwmj
Score : 149 points
Date : 2022-11-26 15:25 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thisismoney.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thisismoney.co.uk)
| rdl wrote:
| The NEV category (basically golf cart) make sense in specific
| neighborhoods -- not in dense cities (where they're still too
| big), not in really long distance rural settings (although a
| Gator/UTV or something on your own property can be awesome), but
| in the right kind of suburban/resort/etc. community, amazing.
|
| I am not a big fan of bicycle/moped/motorcycle because I usually
| want more stuff with me if I'm not just going by foot, but
| something like this would be ideal on a large campus/neighborhood
| with 15-35mph streets, etc.
|
| I don't think I'd be willing to use a Citroen for branding
| reasons, but a Toyota or Tesla or Hyundai or something would be
| great. Not as a first car, and probably not as a second car with
| 2 adults, but as a third vehicle. Maybe even do graduated
| licensing and let 14-18 year olds drive this, raising driving age
| to 18 for regular cars.
| [deleted]
| benj111 wrote:
| >I don't think I'd be willing to use a Citroen for branding
| reasons.
|
| Why???
| jeffbee wrote:
| > not in dense cities
|
| The Free2Move car sharing uses the car in the article in
| central Paris, which I understand is a fairly dense city.
| dmix wrote:
| And in Paris 14yr olds are legally allowed to drive them too
|
| Renting them is $0.30/minute
|
| Compared to a Bird scooter which costs around $0.15/minute on
| average (with fees to start them) in the US
| ahoy wrote:
| You'd be surprised what you can get on a bicycle with just a
| rear rack and a bag. It does require a bit more planning ahead,
| which I'll admit can be annoying.
| naijaboiler wrote:
| I still feel safer in a golf cart than on a bike
| fulafel wrote:
| Or a trailer for more stuff.
| natch wrote:
| Low range means fewer batteries cells (or pouches) means less
| parallelization means slower charge speeds. However this is
| probably not a huge issue since the use case for a short range
| car like this is charge at home at night, and use it only around
| town.
| masklinn wrote:
| > it takes three hours to charge using a conventional three-pin
| domestic plug and socket.
|
| Granted that's with glorious european 230V, but there you go.
| You can literally go out, come back, charge it, then go back
| out again.
|
| The battery is _5.5_ kWh. The first gen leaf had an _entry-
| level_ battery of 24kWh, the second gen starts at 40. It 's
| more comparable to a phev battery (the first-gen Prius had
| 4.4kWh, the current third gen uses a 13.6kWh battery).
| Xylakant wrote:
| I checked the charge time for a twizy a while ago and that's in
| the same ballpark regarding battery size, even slightly bigger.
| It charges to 80% in 2.5 hours and to full in 3.5 hours on a
| standard European wall socket. No fast charge, obviously, but
| plenty usable.
| zac23or wrote:
| Its ugly! A key to Tesla's success is that its cars look like
| cars, not abominations. Many electric car makers seem to hate
| cars.
| toast0 wrote:
| I think this is ugly and cute at once. Like a first gen Scion
| xB (although that was boxier).
|
| But this is clearly a car to fit a regulatory niche, few will
| drive this if they have other options, so style isn't really in
| the budget.
| masklinn wrote:
| > few will drive this if they have other options
|
| Why not? If you're a city-zen and going to do something in
| the city too far to go on foot, using an ami is much easier
| than using a full-size car, unless you have an A-segment car
| (and even then, the ami is a full meter shorter than your
| average A-segment, the length of the Ami is the wheelbase of
| a Picanto or an Aygo).
|
| It's not like the 28mph is a big impediment in most city
| traffic.
| BarryMilo wrote:
| Did we forget the Cybertruck already?
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Citroen has a Cybertruck version of this too, called the Oli:
|
| https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/the-ami-gets-a-
| big...
| maximus-decimus wrote:
| The Oli makes the Cybertruck look normal.
| tengwar2 wrote:
| It's only a research project, unfortunately. I'd be
| seriously interested in buying one.
| masklinn wrote:
| It's certainly fun seeing Citroen going back to being
| absolute weirdoes.
| zac23or wrote:
| You're right. Cybertruck is also an abomination.
| Kukumber wrote:
| i think it's cute, it's very small, practical for a city life
|
| it's not meant to be luxurious, it's meant to be affordable
|
| and it's not meant to "look like a car", it's meant to be
| useful and practical
|
| To quote the article: "In France, anyone from the age of 14 can
| drive one without a licence. You can also hire an Ami on a
| short-term basis in Paris. For EUR0.26-a-minute (with a
| subscription fee of EUR9.90 per month) you can whizz around the
| capital's streets. It's probably nicer - and more hygienic -
| than taking the Metro or a bus"
| zac23or wrote:
| > and it's not meant to "look like a car", it's meant to be
| useful and practical
|
| How many "Ugly electric practical and useful electric cars"
| sell well?
| Kukumber wrote:
| i never said they are "ugly", you said "it is ugly", that's
| your opinion
|
| my opinion is: "it's cute"
|
| i don't understand why you change my words, it wasn't to
| your liking?
| woodruffw wrote:
| I like the way this car looks (and I'm not a particular fan of
| how the Tesla models look).
|
| Were I to buy a car, this is close to what I would look for.
| Bayart wrote:
| Teslas look bland, if not horrid, for how much they cost, at
| least compared to the sedans we're used to in Europe.
| zac23or wrote:
| Bland is ok. Other EVs: https://www.hotcars.com/ugliest-evs-
| produced-so-far/ reply
| [deleted]
| HNDV wrote:
| It's ugly because it was made to be as cheap as possible. For
| example, the "passenger" side door is the same door as the
| driver side, so the driver's door opens like a suicide door,
| while the passenger one opens like a conventional door.
|
| All elements of the car were made to be as perfectly
| symmetrical as possible and interchangeable.
|
| The so-called abomination has a hope of driving poorer people
| from A to B, while your beauty pageant Tesla remains a car for
| the wealthy. Because for all the talks about environmentalism
| from Musk, he has never cared about that. He has never cared
| about bringing cheaper green transportation to the larger
| public. It's all about wealth.
| zac23or wrote:
| A lot of expensive eletric cars are ugly too. like BMW i3.
| https://www.hotcars.com/ugliest-evs-produced-so-far/
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Cheap EVs aren't profitable. If you want to make them cheap,
| supply chains must spin up to drive down costs, not sell lip
| stick on a pig death traps.
|
| This is not Musk specific. Legacy automakers can't bring
| cheap EVs to market that compete with Teslas either. They are
| glorified golf carts because they must be. Cheap out on
| batteries and motors and your warranty reserves and costs are
| exorbitant and destroy profitability, so you cheap out on fit
| and finish (Tesla does, and demand is still...robust) or
| safety (not great!). Go Google for what the Porsche Taycan
| battery warranty requires for it to remain in effect, and
| this is a premium vehicle supposedly.
|
| Regarding "it's all about wealth", let's set aside who Musk
| is for a moment and reflect on a $1B global dc fast charger
| network ("Superchargers") and an EV manufacturing flywheel
| that continues to ramp (approaching 3 million units built and
| sold pa), together which has convinced major nation states to
| enact or pull forward their new vehicle combustion vehicle
| sales bans. Someone can be a pathological liar and greedy and
| yet have moved the needle. Tesla's board recognized that he
| was irreplaceable, and that's likely true. Obsessive people
| are motivated but there are costs personality wise.
|
| High level, let's recalibrate Tesla to not be just Elon Musk.
| Consider that he brought the funding, he ran the ship through
| the storm, but humble JB Straubel was the CTO and was a
| significant component in Tesla's success (wrt battery
| engineering and manufacturing), along with countless decent,
| passionate engineers and ancillary roles over two decades.
| Tesla =! Musk. There is nuance.
|
| (Tesla is building their own lithium refinery in Texas to
| drive down battery costs; point me to an automaker that is
| doing the same, they can barely source batteries at the scale
| they need)
| HNDV wrote:
| >(Tesla is building their own lithium refinery in Texas to
| drive down battery costs; point me to an automaker that is
| doing the same, they can barely source batteries at the
| scale they need)
|
| With this kind of statement I have to believe you're
| arguing in bad faith. Even manufacturers that haven't
| jumped onto the full electric bandwagon like Toyota are
| ramping up manufacturing, see :
| https://www.thestreet.com/investing/automakers-in-race-to-
| ma... >The Japanese automaker said on Aug. 31 it will spend
| another $2.5 billion in its battery plant in North
| Carolina, called the Toyota Battery Manufacturing North
| Carolina.
|
| >The investment at its newest North American facility will
| increase capacity to support battery production. Toyota
| plans to hire another 350 employees for a total of 2,100
| workers.
|
| >Toyota said last year it plans to invest heavily in
| electrification and plans to spend a total of $70 billion,
| plus a total of $5.6 billion for battery production, which
| includes the new North Carolina investment.
|
| > let's set aside who Musk is for a moment and reflect on a
| $1B global dc fast charger network ("Superchargers") and an
| EV manufacturing flywheel that continues to ramp
| (approaching 3 million units built and sold pa), together
| which has convinced major nation states to enact or pull
| forward their new vehicle combustion vehicle sales bans.
| Someone can be a pathological liar and greedy and yet have
| moved the needle.
|
| Tesla totally invested in superchargers for the greater
| good and not to have a proprietary charging network! if it
| wasn't for the rules we have in the European Union they
| would have brought the proprietary chargers they had in
| America and would not allow competitors to use it.
|
| The needle would move nonetheless, it is no longer a matter
| of choice but about the continued survival of the species
| as a whole. In France tesla are a rare sight but small
| delivery cars like these : https://imgur.com/a/kUUJKYV Have
| become extremely common sights in the city centre. We are
| also doing a lot in trying to get people away from cars as
| much as possible : Montpellier is going to make all local
| public transportation free.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| It's great to hear these auto makers are playing catch-up
| now wrt battery manufacturing capacity compared to when
| Tesla announced their Gigafactory in 2014. It only took a
| decade. I'm not being disingenuous, I'm just pointing out
| poor businesses operations, forecasting, and a lack of
| will at legacy automakers. Only very recently did Toyota
| shift their strategy from hydrogen to batteries because
| Tesla gave them no choice.
|
| Tesla spent the $1B on their superchargers. Why would you
| let your competitor who are barely trying to deliver EVs
| freeload on it? Spend your own capital on fast dc
| chargers (or contribute to Teslas capital costs) if you
| want to offer your vehicle buyers a premium long distance
| experience (instead of the sadness that is random CCS
| chargers with no assurances they'll work when you
| arrive). Legacy automakers will continue to have to be
| dragged to an EV future because of lackluster management
| and shareholders who can't get comfortable with the
| cannibalization and transformation combustion vehicle
| manufacturing will have to go through to come out as EV
| makers on the other side.
|
| High level, don't slow down when you're winning and don't
| help your competitors. Drive them into the sea.
| "Innovator's Dilemma" and all that jazz. Europe is a
| microcosm in the world where public transportation is
| likely a better option than EVs to your point (due to
| preindustrial revolution land use and urban planning).
| The rest of the world needs quality long range electric
| mobility.
|
| https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachment
| s/g...
|
| https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-
| transportation/exclus...
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _Why would you let your competitor who are barely
| trying to deliver EVs freeload on it?_
|
| This is such strange thinking. It's not like Tesla will
| give away free charging. The reality is more EVs using
| your chargers means more revenue. High utilization is
| better than low utilization. But you won't listen to me
| about it, so listen to Tesla instead:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-
| supercharg...
|
| This is what Tesla is already doing in Europe. It's easy
| in Europe because Europe has a common charging standard
| in CCS Type 2 Combo:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ
|
| A big benefit of CCS for Tesla owners is that they can
| easily switch to other charging networks when Tesla's
| network is uncompetitive:
|
| https://www.electrive.com/2022/11/23/tesla-reduces-
| superchar...
|
| The sad thing for North America is that it looks like
| Tesla will take the extremely cynical approach of
| allowing low volume manufacturers (like Aptera) to use
| Tesla's chargers if they adopt Tesla's plug. Hence the
| recent announcement of Tesla's plug supposedly being
| "open" and a "standard" now (as opposed to Tesla's
| previous faux openness):
|
| https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-
| charging-s...
|
| Tesla believes that having the chargers support more than
| one manufacturer in this way will qualify Tesla chargers
| for US government subsidies. Tesla wants public funds,
| but doesn't want to provide public infrastructure by
| using CCS Type 1 Combo.
|
| Maybe they'll allow other EVs to charge using a dongle,
| maybe they won't. But having to carry around a dongle
| merely to charge your car is just dumb. One more thing to
| buy, one more thing to lose, one more thing to break.
| Europe shows it doesn't need to be that way.
|
| Closed, incompatible charging infrastructure makes EVs
| worse than ICE vehicles. You can fuel your ICE vehicle at
| any fueling station and you should be able to charge your
| EV at any charging station. Anything less is backward,
| primitive, and underdeveloped.
| gus_massa wrote:
| > _so the driver 's door opens like a suicide door, while the
| passenger one opens like a conventional door._
|
| Is it really more dangerous than a normal door? Someone is
| going to use it only when the car is parked anyway.
|
| (I'd used the oposite design. A normal door for the driver
| that is always present and when parked in the street opens
| the door into transit, and a weird door for the passenger
| that opens the door into the sidewalk. Am I missing
| something?)
| rwmj wrote:
| Wikipedia lists some advantages & disadvantages of suicide
| doors here:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_door#Advantages On a
| modern vehicle moving at most 28 mph they are unlikely to
| be dangerous.
| andrepd wrote:
| Well, to be fair "hating cars" is the sensible view x) Cars are
| wasteful, dirty, loud, and unsafe. Unfortunately, in most
| places in the world the last 80+ years of infrastructure design
| were made around the personal automobile, to the detriment of
| everything else: air quality, scarce space in cities,
| pedestrian safety, etc.
| hyperbovine wrote:
| *Cars as defined by "car people". Personally I couldn't care
| less if my "car looks like a car." (I don't even know what that
| means.) I want it to get me from A to B with a minimum of
| financial and environmental expense.
| zac23or wrote:
| Most people care a lot.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Many different auto companies have produced numerous different
| cars over a very long period of time. Which one is the
| "official" template of what a car should look like?
| zac23or wrote:
| It is necessary not to look ridiculous.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| The 2CV or the Beetle were cheap but charming.
|
| This one is a hideous yoghurt cup, made to atone for your sins,
| made by joyless bureaucrats and puritans. The Extinction
| Rebellion Gretamobile.
| andrewl-hn wrote:
| Our post service uses this car to deliver parcels in our
| neighborhood along with a fleet of electric motorbikes. They take
| around the same space and move around at about the same speed,
| but I'm sure the postman using the car is a much happier fellow
| when it rains.
| bambax wrote:
| > _the PS7,695 tiny electric car that has no boot, a 28mph top
| speed and range of just 46 miles_
|
| I live in Paris and do _everything_ with an e-bike that also has
| no boot, no passenger seat, a top speed of ~20mph, a range of ~30
| miles... but cost me around EUR1,200 (since I built it myself).
|
| It now has over 7,500 miles. In day trafic it's probably much
| faster than the Ami, and it can also be put on a train. Couldn't
| be happier.
| up2isomorphism wrote:
| It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is
| getting old. Good luck when you can still ride a bike when you
| are 70s and in the snow.
| vnorilo wrote:
| Dad is 77 and biking in the snow just fine. He's never been a
| car person so he's quite used to it. Always gets studded
| tires for slippery weather.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Anywhere a bike can go, an electric wheelchair/scooter
| ("Rascal") can go. I intend on swapping out my bike for one
| of those when thr time comes.
|
| There are also electric adult tricycles, etc.
| eherot wrote:
| Elderly people driving cars isn't exactly an ideal situation
| either...
| bambax wrote:
| If and when I can't ride (which I suspect will be never,
| since it's an ebike and my parents, whi are both in their
| nineties, still occasionally ride non-electric bikes), then I
| will find something else. It's not like the ebike is a huge
| investment that nails me for life...
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is
| getting old"
|
| You really think, that we people who do drive bicycles, do
| not think about cold and rain? We are the first to notice it
| first hand. So we do think about it, as we have to regulary
| deal with it.
|
| The solution is adequate clothing.
|
| But yes, I also own a car as I do not live somewhere with
| good public transport system. And I do know people who ride a
| bike in their 70s, but I am aware, that there will likely
| come a time, when I will be indeed too old for riding in the
| winter. But chances are, that by then I am also so fragile,
| that I might be too old for save driving also. Hopefully self
| driving is ready by then.
| jeffbee wrote:
| You want some 70 year old guy driving a car in your city in
| the snow? People outlive their ability to drive a car by 5-10
| years. If you build a city that welcomes and requires cars,
| and discourages biking and walking, you are dooming the
| elderly to spending the ends of their lives at home.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| 70 isn't old.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The visual acuity of a 70-year-old is roughly on par with
| a 20-year-old wearing dark sunglasses at night.
| lm28469 wrote:
| If people exercised instead of living in their cars/offices
| and walking 5 minutes per day they'd be able to do basic
| human things at 70 instead of having their body give up at 40
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > If people exercised instead of living in their
| cars/offices and walking 5 minutes per day
|
| I did that. Running, cycling, walking, etc. Substantially
| more walking than 5 minutes a day, too...
|
| > instead of having their body give up at 40
|
| ...and my right knee became unfixable trash somewhere
| between 45 and 50 (a variety of ailments, possibly
| exacerbated by a ~2001 injury.)
| lm28469 wrote:
| I'm sorry for you, and it's a data point, but
| statistically at 45 virtually everyone is an heavily
| overweight/obese excuse of a human being. For every sport
| injured person you have 100 obese who can barely go
| though basic human movements anymore
| MontyCarloHall wrote:
| If it's raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I'd much
| rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements
| on a bike.
|
| The Ami has a primitive heater but no air conditioning, but
| there's no reason that these limitations are inherent to a
| vehicle of this size. I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature
| comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in
| cities.
|
| Biking is great when the weather is amenable to it. When the
| weather is not, I'd rather not show up to my destination
| drenched in sweat, soaked in rain, or freezing my ass off.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| The weather is only as bad as your worst clothing. I did
| invest in Shimano neoprene overshoes to catch the crap my
| super-low muguards don't, but only because my gf objected to
| plastic bags (which were admittedly, a nit of a pain. On very
| cold days i put bubble wrap inside them for added wind-
| breakage/ windsulation. For my hands, I absolutely refuse to
| not wear washing up gloves, with liner gloves inside, though.
| jcpst wrote:
| When I was younger my car broke down and I did not have the
| money for the replacement part. So I rode my bike to work for
| 5 months.
|
| This was quite enjoyable most days, it was only 3.5 miles
| each way. On rainy days, I packed a 2nd set of clothes
| wrapped in a plastic grocery bag, and also wrapped my laptop
| in one.
|
| The worst was when it started to drop below 40F outside, and
| raining.
|
| It was fun until it wasn't- then repairing the car went near
| the top of the list.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| > If it's raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I'd much
| rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the
| elements on a bike.
|
| Yes and no. I have a three wheeler cargo bike I use for most
| of my commuting or city riding and very rarely do I opt for
| my car, particularly when the weather is bad. The main reason
| is that since where I live I basically cannot find parking
| and when the weather is bad, the roads are full of cars. In
| that case I'm usually quicker and more relaxed just loading
| the kids into the cargo bike (they have a roof) and I accept
| the wetness / cold than to try to use my car instead. It just
| works out much better for me.
| jack_pp wrote:
| I don't even have a driving licence, mostly go by subway /
| bus or scooter and right now if I go over 20kph on a
| scooter my face freezes, do you use a bike helmet (full
| face shield) when it's cold outside or are you just used to
| it?
| Marsymars wrote:
| I put on my snowboarding face gear if it's especially
| cold, even if I'm just walking outside. (Snowboarding
| speeds and weather are both typically worse than anything
| I see in the city.)
| kreskin wrote:
| I used to bike year round in Canada. In the winter I
| would use a neck warmer to cover my face as I also had
| problems with my face getting cold. You'll adapt to the
| cold a little bit but even now when I go for a walk
| outside at < -10C and there's a slight breeze I need to
| cover my face.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| I guess my face does not freeze? I have a scarf and a
| hat, and that's pretty much it for me to feel ... fine?
| Generally I never really get cold cycling because I am
| moving. It's different when I'm walking in the cold where
| typically my feet get cold fast and I feel abysmal.
| scajanus wrote:
| It's different when you do the work to move you yourself
| (or even a part of it, on an e-bike). Other than that, a
| well designed hood helps, but at a cost of reducing your
| vision.
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| Very much this. Not having to faff with parking is one of
| the reasons I love my e-bike. It saves five minutes on
| what's only a ten minute bike ride anyway.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Quite honestly, an ebike solves a lot of this.
|
| I thought I would never use it in the winter, but a cheap
| rain suit is perfect to keep me warm and dry, and takes about
| 20 seconds to put on or take off. I don't have to worry about
| sweat since if I get too hot I can just use the throttle or
| dial up the electric assist.
|
| I thought I would never use the thing in winter, but I
| actually find it absurdly practical.
| moonchrome wrote:
| Sorry but that's delusional - riding in the rain, and
| especially when it's snowy/icy - is order of magnitude more
| dangerous - traction/breaking/reduced visibility.
| 0x457 wrote:
| Tell that to people of Vietnam.
| olivermuty wrote:
| Hello, I come from the land up over
|
| As in I come from Norway and winter tires for bikes work
| just fine :)
| Lutger wrote:
| Maybe if you don't have the infra, but here in the
| Netherlands its perfectly normal to do this.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| > riding in the rain, and especially when it's snowy/icy
| - is order of magnitude more dangerous -
| traction/breaking/reduced visibility.
|
| Yes, it's more dangerous. No one said it's not. No one
| even mentioned safety until you brought it up yourself.
|
| If you want to bring up safety: great! Go for it! But no
| need to start calling people "delusional" right from the
| bat.
| moonchrome wrote:
| But that's the worst part about bad weather - you have to
| ride much slower and be on high alert - so you're in
| shitty conditions for even longer - and ebike only makes
| that worse. For some reason people on ebikes don't
| realize that they are riding on a shitty motorcycle and
| how risky it is to remove speed restrictions/zip around
| traffic on those things - at least that's my impression
| of the few friends that really got into it. And the
| accident rate statistics seem to back my impressions.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Have you tried, or are you just speculating about me
| being delusional?
|
| As I said in my comment, I actually do this, and
| surprised myself with how practical it is in all but the
| absolute worse weather (there are about 7 days per year
| where my bike won't work, but generally that means that
| it is dangerous driving conditions as well). I live in
| rural Canada. I'm no stranger to riding in snow, rain and
| darkness.
|
| I could equally say that it is delusional to allow
| minimally trained civilians access to multi ton vehicles
| with limited visibility, built in devices intended to
| distract powered by explosive liquids. But that system
| works as well.
| yafbum wrote:
| Not the person you're responding to, but I agree with
| that argument. I have commuted by bike daily in a
| relatively dry climate for years. I had no problem with
| rain in terms of wetting my clothes, as you said the rain
| gear is easy to put on and off. But even though I think
| of myself as a fairly careful rider, I had a couple
| falls, one due to slipping on leaves on a wet bike path
| that left me with a concussion, the other due to a hobo
| riding a narrow bike path the wrong way, causing me to
| arrive a work with bloody knuckles. I haven't fallen
| since and I continue to ride, but I do feel I'm much less
| at risk of injury in an enclosed car.
| moonchrome wrote:
| I used to own a motorcycle and I commute with a bycicle
| in ~mediteranian climate.
|
| The only two accidents I've ever had on a motorcycle were
| low speed manuvers in heavy rain when I got caught by a
| shower.
|
| On a bike just riding on a slippery road is terrible and
| wading through umbrellas, getting splashed by cars in
| traffic, rain in the eyes.
|
| Riding on two wheels makes you extremely exposed - ebikes
| are just shit motorcycles (especially self built ones)
| and have a higher accident rate statistics from what I
| can tell.
|
| If you're not aware how risky it is compared to a car you
| are you are being delusional.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| I'll be another voice to say you're speaking from a
| myopic perspective. The Dutch bike through rain, sleet or
| snow without any difficulty. Modern electric cargo bikes
| like their favorite, Urban Arrow, are fantastically
| balanced and need only a trained rider to handle through
| a wide variety of inclement weather.
| warcher wrote:
| Yeah I dunno where they're going with this.
|
| You can ski in the snow perfectly comfortably if properly
| attired, but you can't bike?
|
| In fairness icy streets can get _extremely_ dicey on two
| wheels-- no arguments there. The US in particular has a
| lot more extreme weather than Holland. You 'll have
| extended periods where biking on icy concrete is not a
| great option.
| moonchrome wrote:
| > Around two-thirds of the 110,000 traffic victims
| treated in Dutch hospitals in 2021 were cyclists,
| according to VeiligheidNL.
|
| www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/274249/20220413/e-bike-
| injuries-rise-despite-safety-precautions-according-dutch-
| organization.htm
|
| And that's in a place with top tier biking
| infrastructure.
| mnkv wrote:
| The victims are cyclists because so many dutch people
| cycle! (Because the infrastructure is so good)
|
| Per Capita, cycling in the Netherlands is far far safer
| than cycling in the US.
| moonchrome wrote:
| Yes but far more unsafe than using a car !
|
| > "The Dutch data for last year (2019) shows that in
| absolute figures more people died in car crashes (237)
| than on a bicycle (203). If you calculate the figure per
| kilometre travelled that is reversed. Per one billion
| kilometres travelled the figure for cycling is 11 while
| the figure for car occupants is 1.6 fatalities."
|
| Why do I have to google these self-evident facts ? No
| matter how good your bike lanes are two wheels are very
| sensitive and unforgiving and the vehicle offers 0
| protection (and in fact gets in the way of softening the
| landing/balancing back).
|
| The bike enthusiasm seems to override rationality - like
| if I strapped a child seat on a rear seat of a motorcycle
| social services would take my child - meanwhile if I do
| it on an ebike I'm praised for being environmental -
| despite the similar risk factor.
| tmnvix wrote:
| This doesn't mean much absent ridership statistics.
| marci wrote:
| Unfortunately, there are some places where the whole city
| is delusional, like in Finland
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
|
| /s
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| So you mishandled a motor vehicle that weighs 4-5x, with
| 100x the power as much as an ebike in the rain, and you
| commute using a bicycle which explicitly causes the
| downsides that I avoid using an ebike. I'm not surprised
| your experience is different
|
| It sounds like your experience is different because
| haven't actually tried using an ebike. I used to think
| that a bike and an ebike were basically the same use
| case. After having used a bike, an ebike, and a
| motorcycle for commuting I can say that they are three
| very different machines.
|
| Please let me know what your experience was commuting in
| northern bad weather using an ebike before you call me
| delusional. It sounds like you are extrapolating
| incorrectly based on inexperience
| moonchrome wrote:
| I actually worked for a company making ebikes for a while
| so got my chance to try them out - like I said -
| motorcycle with cheap components, handles better for sure
| because it's lighter - but it's not built for traffic
| speeds.
|
| People think because kids can drive it that it's safe -
| like I've said - quick Google search shows higher
| accident rate for ebikes than motorcycles ! And we are
| comparing to cars here - that's like >10x risk increase.
|
| And every self built one I've seen had a way to remove
| speed limiting block (interested if have yours limited
| ?). That's a recepie for disaster.
| TrueGeek wrote:
| Riding increases with proper infrastructure, even in
| areas with extremely bad weather.
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
| tlaundal wrote:
| And the same applies to every other vehicle, but I
| suppose you would still get in a car on a rainy day?
|
| You adjust speed and cycling style to the conditions, and
| for winter cycling there are plenty of good options for
| studded tires. The Nordics have succeeded in making
| winter cycling a more common activity, and you might want
| to check out the "winter cycling capital of the world":
| Oulu, Finland.
| moonchrome wrote:
| Last year a friend broke 2 ribs and forearm by slipping
| over some wet leaves on a bycicle - I don't see how
| that's comparable to a car.
|
| Also I don't have windshield wipers on my face (or
| windshield for that matter) - but maybe I'm just wired
| like that.
| cuu508 wrote:
| > I don't see how that's comparable to a car.
|
| Yesterday, local news, a car crash with all three
| involved drivers dead.
| moonchrome wrote:
| By slipping on wet leaves ? I guess it could happen but
| how likely is it ? Mind sharing the link ?
| cuu508 wrote:
| "in slippery conditions":
| https://eng.lsm.lv/article/economy/transport/snow-and-
| ice-ma...
|
| (It's only a one-sentence mention in the article. There
| were only a few more details in the local news: two
| semis, one passenger car. All three drivers dead, two
| people in hospital. No details on what exactly happened,
| who caused it.)
| moonchrome wrote:
| And you think riding an ebike in those conditions on the
| road would not be suicide ?
|
| 2 wheels make you extremely sensitive to small traction
| loss - hitting a patch of wet leaves/gravel/mud/ice with
| a car tire is a nuisance at best - and a potential
| fatality on a ebike/motorcycle.
| cuu508 wrote:
| It would be a bad idea. And that specific road, even in
| good summer weather, I've had a truck pass me on my bike
| so close I could have touched it with a hand if not
| elbow.
|
| But my point is, while you're better protected in the
| car, with speed and kinetic energy the stakes go up. If
| they were three cyclists instead of three drivers in
| heavy vehicles on that road yesterday, they would likely
| all still be alive.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Last year I sprained my wrist slipping on ice while
| walking to my car, but I never fell off my bike even
| though I live in a temperate rainforest.
|
| What should I learn from this one off incident?
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| My commute is 4mi each way in quite-rainy Portland, rain
| on my glasses isn't too much of a problem, though fine
| mist I need to wipe off occasionally. I haven't ever had
| any serious problems with road conditions (in ~20yr of
| bike commutes), though I do have to slow down / watch the
| turns until later in the winter when most of the leaves
| are out of the road.
| GlacierFox wrote:
| That's unfortunate. I seen that a family of four where
| crushed to death and burned alive in their Nissan X-Trail
| yesterday when it veered off the road on ice and hit a
| truck full of propane tanks.
| Marsymars wrote:
| Studded tires work well enough that I'd be really
| surprised if it was an order of magnitude more dangerous
| on snow/ice with them.
| masklinn wrote:
| > there's no reason that these limitations are inherent to a
| vehicle of this size.
|
| Of course not, but the manufacturer tried to keep the costs
| down as much as they could. An Ami with A/C for double the
| price would be a lot less attractive.
|
| Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating
| kinder on the battery...
|
| > I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a
| regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities.
|
| Seems rather doubtful, it would still have to provide limited
| amenities, but the price would shoot way up. And given the
| range of the car, the amenities are a lot less problematic:
| you _can not_ use the car for long.
| gus_massa wrote:
| > _Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the
| heating kinder on the battery..._
|
| Isn't a normal AC a reversible heat pump?
| masklinn wrote:
| A normal AC is a heat pump, but lots are not reversible.
|
| Especially in cars, it's a very recent development in
| some EVs: on an ICE, the ICE provides the heating so a
| reversible AC is just more complexity for no gain.
| unglaublich wrote:
| That 'raining, snowing, too hot, too cold' argument keeps
| coming up. You know, we humans are perfectly capable of
| dressing up appropriately and just enjoying the fresh air,
| whether it's warm or cold. In fact, it makes you feel alive!
|
| Get the nice warm gloves and raincoat out for winter, or the
| super light and loose shirt with sunglasses for summer.
| thiht wrote:
| Except when you go to work and have to spend the day with
| your pants and shoes drenched. And if you have glasses, you
| quickly can't see anything.
| wreath wrote:
| Or worse, sweaty and smelly. Be friendly to your
| colleagues
| johnisgood wrote:
| Wear appropriate clothes. Do not wear Converse sneakers
| when it is raining outside (or alternatively, have a pair
| of shoes at the workplace that you switch to once you are
| in, or whatever). Take a shower before work. Apply a
| deodorant, or an antiperspirant (the latter has different
| instructions, you apply them after shower, before sleep,
| and wash it off in the morning). It is a solved "issue",
| seriously. The shoes I wear when it is rainy or snowy
| outside do not get drenched at all, and I go to work by
| bus and foot. Same goes to my jacket. Actually, same goes
| to my whole body, as I use an umbrella on top of all
| this, and I hide wherever I can at the bus stop while
| waiting, or just use the umbrella if I cannot.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I go to work by e-bike. I have a pair of rain pants that
| I pull over my regular pants, and a rainproof jacket. I
| wear glasses, but my helmet has a visor. Would a car keep
| me drier? Yes, absolutely, but I'd still need to walk
| from parking lot to office, and I'd be stuck with all the
| other folks in traffic.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _but I'd still need to walk from parking lot to office_
|
| FWIW, this is effectively solved by an umbrella.
| Xylakant wrote:
| Yes, or a rain jacket. But trousers still get wet if it's
| a bit windy. And then I'm back to square one, or at least
| close to.
| yafbum wrote:
| What do you do about shoes in rain?
| Xylakant wrote:
| Waterproof boots or neoprene overshoes. I've also seen
| people with rain trousers that cover the shoes.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| You can buy rain covers for your shoes, or just do
| whatever it is you do when you walk outside in the rain.
| johnisgood wrote:
| What do you mean? You wear boots or whatever you want to
| call them, not sneakers.
| lm28469 wrote:
| You can own multiple pair of shoes, and even have one
| stay at the office, same for pants. I do it and I don't
| feel like I'm having a miserable existence
|
| But fuck it, let's buy a car and fuck the planet, that's
| much more convenient, god forbid we sweat or touch the
| rain, oh the horror !
| throwaway0x7E6 wrote:
| Yes.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _You can own multiple pair of shoes, and even have one
| stay at the office, same for pants._
|
| This hints at another counterpoint: it's not just
| yourself you have to protect from elements, but also
| whatever it is you want to transport with you. Like those
| extra shoes. Or electronics. Or groceries. Etc.
|
| Waterproof bags probably exist, but I can't say I've seen
| them available, or used, by anyone at all.
| noirbot wrote:
| Waterproof bags have existed for centuries - waxed
| fabrics, well-treated leathers, and I'm sure plenty of
| more modern textiles. Or just put a plastic/metal box on
| the side/back of your bike and use it exactly like you do
| the trunk in your plastic/metal box of a car.
| Xylakant wrote:
| Waterproof bags or backpacks are absolutely common for
| electronics. Alternatively, you can buy simple rain
| covers for backpacks. Bike panniers are at least somewhat
| water resistant unless you opt for the cheapest. That's
| really one of the easiest things to solve.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| > Waterproof bags probably exist, but I can't say I've
| seen them available, or used, by anyone at all.
|
| What? Almost all non-cheap backpacks are water-proof.
| Water-proof packs are around _everywhere_.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Right? I think that I would have to try to find a bike
| pannier that ISN'T waterproof.
| lm28469 wrote:
| I must live a very peculiar life then. All I need is a
| backpack and a rain coat, it's been 7 years or so and I
| haven't experienced anything life changing so far
|
| I get on my bike, go to the store, office, friends, &c.
| rain, snow, sun, wind, it won't kill you really
| yafbum wrote:
| Let me guess
|
| No kids?
|
| What you described was my bike centric life as well until
| it wasn't.
|
| When you have to do school drop-off a couple miles away
| for middle schoolers, or do that weekly store run for a
| family, it gets a bit trickier on the bike.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I have kids. They're sitting happily in the dry under the
| canopy. It's great. Wherever I need to drop them off,
| childcare, sports, friends, I park right in front.
| Predictable travel times, no stuck in traffic. My long
| term cycling average speed is on par with the average car
| speed in Berlin. Sure, on some distances I loose vs. a
| car, but on others I win, since I can take shortcuts or
| pass cars stuck in traffic.
|
| Bike packs 100kg of stuff or a large shopping trolley in
| volume. Works for the weekly shopping without issue.
|
| The only time it sucks is ice on the road. Snow is fine,
| but ice is not - because bike lanes get treated like
| third class infrastructure, worse than pavements.
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| I do the school run (3 hilly miles each way) seven times
| a week on an e-bike - a Tern GSD. It's fine. Our kid
| loves it and so do his friends (we share lifts). We do
| have a car but I haven't driven it since August.
| fulafel wrote:
| Waterproof bike panniers are pretty standard.
| thiht wrote:
| > let's buy a car and fuck the planet
|
| There's currently football matches being played in Qatar
| in stadiums with AC set to 20degC in 32degC weather.
| Thousands of people have travelled there by plane.
|
| Me having a car is fine.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| I've cycled and driven mopeds in some pretty serious
| rains (including tropical monsoon downpours), and the
| right preparation makes all the difference. Being "stuck"
| on a two-wheeler during unexpected rainfall is definitely
| a big bummer, but a good raincoat or poncho makes all the
| difference, and you tend to come out reasonable dry at
| the end of it.
| simlevesque wrote:
| I have a shoes dryer in my office for this reason.
| MonaroVXR wrote:
| Agreed, the amount excuses that people have. I'm not
| talking about HN itself. Is too much.
| to11mtm wrote:
| There's some conditions that riding a bike are far less
| safe than a car. [0]
|
| I've had interest in an e-bike in the past, the problem I
| personally run into is that I'd still need a car for most
| trips due to the way my region is laid out. (I think I had
| -one- job where an e-bike was viable for a commute range-
| wise, but only based on published specs which probably
| wouldn't fit the real use thermals of my region.) [1]
| Speaking of, the 'too cold' argument holds a bit more water
| for e-bikes; I doubt many have the thermal protections of a
| BEV, which could lead to a destroyed pack.
|
| Also, IDK what it's like in other parts of the world, but
| in the US much of the population sees decent bicycles as a
| 'hobby/sport' rather than a mode of transport.
|
| Personally I blame big box stores and terrible, cheap,
| 'disposable' bicycles. Aside from having cheap, unreliable,
| unsafe components (my favorite: I was fixing one of these,
| while trying to run through the gears, the grip shifter
| broke in such a way it shot a plastic shard at my eye,)
| they are at time assembled by people that are paid based on
| production rather than hourly. [2]
|
| Bike shops, as a result, tend to cater to either the MB
| hobbyist or the Road folks. (At least in my region.) To be
| clear many of these are good reputable shops, _but_ it
| means that oftentimes the items you would want to make
| daily riding practical (i.e. the right racks /bags for a
| reasonable grocery trip, are at best special order.)
|
| Honestly?
|
| If someone wanted to really give e-bikes a spiffy image in
| the US, I know exactly what to do. Take two Sun EZ Classics
| [3] and the SxS kit [4]. I also know at one point they made
| a middle 'rumble' seat as well as a special drape shroud
| for the SxS [5]. Redesign the SxS kit with an 'E-Motor'
| option (I'm not sure whether you could get by with just one
| or if dual would be required.)
|
| Bam. You have a comfortable e-bike that has some protection
| from the elements and has some room for crap in the back
| like groceries/etc. Additionally, you have the ability to
| have a 'passenger'. I'm -guessing- in volume you could sell
| the finished product for ~2000-3000 USD, but that would
| assume that you are doing enough volume to make it worth it
| to all involved parties. (Why the wide swing? Last I knew
| the SxS kit was done by a small, low-volume shop, making it
| almost as much as one of the bikes.)
|
| [0] - To be clear, safety is different than comfort/ease of
| ride. I've ridden through 3 inches of snow, and while it
| was a grueling ride, It was honestly safer than a typical
| ride due to everyone's reduced speeds. OTOH I've had times
| where there was no snow but enough (black) ice on the
| roads/sidewalks that snap physics calculations became
| important.
|
| [1] - As we have observed with BEVs and the like, cold
| weather has a pretty big impact on battery efficiency. Even
| in my Hybrid I can see a 5%-10% fuel economy difference
| between 28F and 40F
|
| [2] - At least, that's what happened at some of the stores
| around here. They would essentially abuse a system where
| infirm people can be paid less than minimum wage, by an
| 'output' system compared to how much a normal hourly worker
| would produce (easily rigged with the right person as a
| 'benchmark', of course.)
|
| [3] - https://www.sunseeker.bike/index.php/products/ez-
| classic-sx/
|
| [4] - https://www.sunseeker.bike/index.php/products/ez-
| classic-sid...
|
| [5] - We actually did one of these full setups at the shop
| once for a family that had a child who had
| physiological/mental developmental issues but loved the
| feeling of riding. He could pedal when he wanted to. Them
| picking it up was the happiest sight in the world. Things
| you miss about working at a simple bike shop I guess.
| tialaramex wrote:
| You just can't fix the extreme edges this way. Above about
| 300K that "super light and loose shirt" is still drenched
| with sweat unless your "assist" is doing all the work or
| there's a pretty stiff wind.
|
| Below about 250K the "nice warm clothing" needed to make
| this comfortable would become too bulky to make ordinary
| movement practical, so we skimp. We tell ourselves nope,
| we're just not going outside except to do stuff, and then
| we're coming straight back. Below 200K it's no longer
| practical to keep humans alive with anything resembling
| "clothing". You should use a _building_ to keep warm
| instead. Earth is capable of both these extremes, although
| outside temperatures below 200K are usually only seen in
| the Antarctic interior during storms.
| DoesntMatter22 wrote:
| What is 300k? Are you using kelvin here?
| tialaramex wrote:
| 300K. Yes. I don't find it very convenient to work with
| these weird signed temperatures.
| tremon wrote:
| That's about an 86 on my scale of intelligibility.
| missedthecue wrote:
| No one knows what you mean.
| tejohnso wrote:
| My problem is the lack of infrastructure. We have a few
| streets in the entire city with decent bike lanes. Mostly
| you're on the road with cars going 90km/hr right beside you
| with no barrier or even road markings. I'm not going to do
| that in anything but perfect weather and even then not very
| often.
| unglaublich wrote:
| That's a perfect example of how we have allowed cars to
| endanger the public space. We all live in a constant fear
| to be hurt or killed by a motorist: watch both sides, do
| it again, are you _very_, _very_ certain? Then attempt to
| cross a street. And STILL 35.000 people die every DAY
| worldwide in traffic accidents. It's dystopian.
| lormayna wrote:
| > too hot, too cold
|
| Ami don't have air conditioning or heating systems.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| I'm a keen cyclist but I still don't much enjoy cycling in
| moderate/heavy rain.
|
| Cold I don't mind.
| lzooz wrote:
| Good luck convincing people to give up their cars and go to
| work soaked in a raincoat every day.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I'm an American visiting Paris and have noticed many
| folks on scooters and ebikes have these skirts that are
| fabric covers that cover the bike seat and also the legs
| of the rider when they ride. They also have these mitten
| like things that attach to the handles that allow you to
| operate the bike but also protect your hands from the
| elements. Between those two things, and a decent rain
| jacket (which you need anyway) it seems to protect folks
| well and allow them to do just about anything one would
| do with their car. It's not that far fetched.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Have you seen any solution they're using for transporting
| _things_ , like groceries or computers or extra clothes?
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| Yes - a bike cargo rack.
|
| You have a waterproof bag that attaches to it. Problem
| completely solved.
|
| It rains quite a bit in Netherlands, and it's the biking
| capital of the world.
|
| It's almost as if rain isn't really that big of a deal.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Baskets, racks, panniers, backpacks, delivery services,
| cargo bikes, trailers.
|
| A significant number of Parisians don't own cars so this
| is no different than before for them.
| [deleted]
| lm28469 wrote:
| Yep, reason #1 we're fucked, people became absolute cry
| babies about anythign resembling physical effort or
| inconvenience. They'd burn the planet twice over rather
| than move their asses anywhere else other than in a 3
| tonne climatized metal cage
| lttlrck wrote:
| Calling them cry babies is really not helpful.
|
| Considering we spend most of our lives trying to increase
| the standard of living for ourselves and for others it's
| not all that surprising people resist _reducing_ it, is
| it?
| lm28469 wrote:
| Is it "increase the standard of living " when it
| decreases your life expectancy, physical shape, made the
| city unliveable for pedestrians, potentially fuck up the
| climate for the next few hundred years, &c ?
|
| At some point we have to look in the mirror and make
| choices for ourselves, and yes, lots of people became
| absolutely pathetic excuse of human beings, if you can't
| stand the rain I'm sorry but you definitely are a cry
| baby.
|
| What's the end goal of this pursuit of "quality of life"
| ? Living in a matrix style pod, being fed food through
| your veins while being sedated and transported into the
| metaverse ?
|
| If you can't imagine a world without cars and the idea of
| using a bike repulses you because "rain" you're the
| problem, or at least a very big part of it
| factsarelolz wrote:
| > Is it "increase the standard of living " when it
| decreases your life expectancy, physical shape
|
| Yes, it increases the standard of living by pulling poor
| people out of poverty. So the rich consumer nation has
| their life decreased due to over consumption while
| increasing the standard of living of those from poorer
| nations. The rich consumer nation cannot consume AND
| increase life expectancy at an infinite rate.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Cars do not, on their own, pull poor people out of
| poverty. In the US it's quite the opposite. The need to
| own a car is a significant drag on many peoples finances
| elliottkember wrote:
| Hopefully, ever-increasing gas prices will do the
| convincing.
| unglaublich wrote:
| While I am a big human-powered-transportation supporter,
| feeding a human is generally more expensive than paying
| for gas to have a machine do it.
|
| A human needs some 2kJ / kg / km to ride. That's 1.6MJ.
|
| A car needs ~15L gas per 100km, so that's 45MJ for a 10km
| ride.
|
| While the car uses 30x as much energy, it will only cost
| you $1.30.
|
| The human needs 1.6MJ of food. That's about a grilled
| chicken sandwich. Which will cost you $4.30...
| mgbmtl wrote:
| We don't need to convince everybody. Even just convincing
| 10% makes a huge difference in shifting the conversation,
| infrastructure, reducing energy usage, etc.
|
| I live in Montreal and winter cycling used to be a really
| hardcore thing. Not anymore. Winters are warmer now, just
| a bit, but enough to make winter cycling pleasant on most
| days. Dedicated, snow-plowed cycling lanes made a huge
| difference.
|
| (I use my car most of the time, because usually a daycare
| run with kid, but now we're equipped for maybe once a
| week by bike)
| leni536 wrote:
| Me and many of my collagues do this. We have a drying
| room at the workplace where we can hang our drenched
| raincoats.
| scajanus wrote:
| Yeah -- a lot of the problems presented here (proper
| clothing for the weather, showering/changing/drying your
| commuting gear at the office) have simple and quite
| affordable solutions as soon as even a few people do it.
|
| Office and apartment buildings here (Helsinki) even
| compete by providing convenient bike storage even for
| cargo bikes with easy access, washing spots for
| bikes/muddy or sandy gear, drying cabinets etc.
| lm28469 wrote:
| As my grandma would say, you're not made of sugar. If the new
| baseline for human life is to not be exposed to rain and
| never sweat we can give up now because we'll never manage to
| make that sustainable.
| johnisgood wrote:
| Aluminium-based antiperspirants work for days between re-
| use if anyone is worried about sweating (and yeah,
| according to studies it is not as unhealthy as people think
| it is, at least not in those amounts, and no one told you
| to bathe in it).
|
| Not being exposed to rain... well... I dunno, I live in
| Europe and people just dress up appropriately. Mostly it is
| just a matter of using an umbrella anyways... and proper
| clothes, seriously.
| lm28469 wrote:
| > Aluminium-based antiperspirants work for days between
| re-use if anyone is worried about sweating
|
| Or go to the bathroom, change tshirt, use some deo and
| you're set for the day, it really isn't rocket science.
| You're exercising, saving hundreds of kilos of co2 per
| year, and saving 10+ sqmeter of parking space. Not to
| mention no gas, no insurance, virtually no maintenance.
| johnisgood wrote:
| Sure, there are many alternatives. I prefer the
| antiperspirant way, because I hate sweating a lot, and I
| would rather not wash clothes more regularly, but to each
| their own. It is still car-less. :)
| scajanus wrote:
| For short distances, getting my car out from under fresh snow
| is more work than taking the bike. Even when it's just a
| small layer of light snow that needs to be dusted off.
|
| Also if I'm going to spend any time outside, I need to spend
| equal amount of time picking my clothes and dressing for the
| weather regardless of whether I pick the car or the bike.
| PiotrVonKleve wrote:
| Check the FreZe NIKROB EV [1]. EU version of the popular
| Chinese Mini EV, 4 seats, has AC.
|
| [1] https://nikrob.at/ edit: typo.
| MonaroVXR wrote:
| As a Dutch person im out here exposed to these elements on
| the bike and yes I do own a car and even when it rains I do
| take the bike,I'm adjusted too it.
|
| I did never broke something, yes I did stupid things on a
| bike. Even in the snow and ice. Using a bicycle isn't
| difficult.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _In day trafic it 's probably much faster than the Ami_
|
| No way, man. The Ami has flames on the side:
|
| https://www.topgear.com/car-news/weird/ha-check-out-citroens...
|
| And does your e-bike strike fear in the hearts of criminals
| everywhere?
|
| https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/citroen-ami-now-po...
|
| I think not.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| Good for you.
|
| That does not invalidate the point of a mean of transport
| alternative to big empty cars riding one person each and to
| bikes, that ride one person each and have no trunk.
|
| Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled
| vehicles. Because, you know, bikes don't stand on their own,
| their braking abilities are very limited due to very thin
| tyres, they have no stop and turn signals, no rearview mirrors,
| etc etc
|
| Cars are expensive because of safety devices and regulations,
| not because a box of metal with an engine could not be built
| for a couple of thousands euros.
|
| ALSO the subway is much faster than a bike, cost much less and
| does not interfere with pedestrian walking spaces, I can pay 10
| years of public transport with 1,200 euros.
|
| Of course bikers of HN will not like it, but cars are the
| killer app for private transportation, the ICE engine is an
| accident, it's their form factor that wins.
|
| Decades of design have been spent on them. while bikes are
| still the same old two wheelers now with an electric engine, so
| more like stripped down mopeds, not so great if you ask the
| majority of people who simply need to move and don't care about
| the flex.
|
| Please, don't be un parisien.
|
| p.s. I'm a biker and a pedestrian, I drive less than 100km a
| month, only when I have to and don't own a car since 10 years
| ago. But Ican't stand the attitude of many bikers that think
| that if they do it, everybody should or could do it. It's
| simply wrong.
| ginko wrote:
| >Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled
| vehicles.
|
| Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles
|
| wrong.
|
| cars are more dangerous on average (the concept of average
| should be banned from any statistical analysis) because
| they travel many many many more kilometers than the average
| bike and mostly for very long distances at high speed.
|
| But if you notice, I wrote "than slow 4 wheeled cars".
|
| Ami is much safer than a bike, especially for the
| occupants.
|
| Example: there are 3.75 million cars in Rome urban area (5
| million residents)
|
| There were 121 deaths last year caused by car accidents.
|
| It's 32 per million vehicles.
|
| Bike users deaths caused by street accidents have been 50
| in the same year.
|
| Meanwhile the number of people brought to ER for either
| having an accident with an e-bike or and e-scooter have
| tripled in the past couple of years. Mostly is people
| falling on their own and hitting their head. Main two
| reasons: lost balance on the e-scooter, going too fast with
| their e-bike.
| ginko wrote:
| Try getting hit by either a >400kg Ami or a 20kg bike
| each going 20km/h and let me know the results.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| If you wanna have a conversation, please try at least to
| understand a few simple concepts.
|
| A bullet weights 50 grams.
|
| Would you prefer to be hit by a bike or a bullet?
| ginko wrote:
| A bullet has more kinetic energy because it's
| significantly faster than a bike. But a bike is actually
| slower than a car, even an Ami so I don't understand what
| argument you're trying to make here. Cars kill people
| every. single. day.
|
| All the traffic rules had to be created just because how
| dangerous and deadly cars are.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > A bullet has more kinetic energy because it's
| significantly faster than a bike
|
| that's part of the problem.
|
| The bullet is also shaped to cause damages
|
| If the same 50 grams were a disc of few microns of
| thickness and a diameter of 50 cm, they would be much
| less dangerous.
|
| A bike is shaped like a battering ram, an Ami has to pass
| very rigorous safety tests and is shaped to cause the
| less damage possible on impact, because it's the law.
|
| So a bike going 20mph is more dangerous than an Ami going
| 25mph.
|
| Because the Ami has a real braking system and it's
| possible to maneuver it out of the danger zone at the
| same time. A bike is much harder to handle in emergency
| situations, because, you know, the aforementioned
| gyroscope effect does not work as flawlessly as having 4
| stable wheels on the ground.
|
| Good news is that when a biker does some stupid shit,
| they can blame cars.
|
| Except that when a bike hits a pedestrian it usually
| causes grave damages, ask my cousin, who got a broken hip
| from a bike riding on the pavement.
|
| > All the traffic rules had to be created just because
| how dangerous and deadly cars are.
|
| That's like saying that rules around train safety were
| created after trains were invented.
|
| No sh*t Sherlock!
|
| Bike safety rules existed before, because bikes existed
| already.
| ginko wrote:
| >So a bike going 20mph is more dangerous than an Ami
| going 25mph.
|
| This is absurd. It makes me really doubt if you have any
| understanding of physics.
|
| I also don't appreciate you editing your earlier posts to
| pad out your arguments.
| nayuki wrote:
| > A bullet has more kinetic energy because it's
| significantly faster than a bike
|
| Confirmed. Kinetic energy is E = 1/2 m v^2.
|
| A bullet might have v = 1000 m/s, m = 0.01 kg, E = 5000
| J.
|
| A bicycle with rider might have v = 5 m/s, m = 100 kg, E
| = 1250 J.
| ginko wrote:
| >Bike users deaths caused by street accidents have been
| 50 in the same year.
|
| and most of those deaths were caused by cars.
| sigitprayitno wrote:
| rwmj wrote:
| That's nice, but the roads around here are not safe for
| bicycles of any sort (think pot-holed winding country lanes
| with lorries speeding at above the 40 mph limit). Until the
| government gets serious about lowering and enforcing speed
| limits and introducing cycling infrastructure, an electric car
| is necessary.
| eduction wrote:
| Makes me feel slightly less backward about still using
| imperial units in the US that you and the article both use
| mph (I'd have guessed km/h).
|
| Is it just a speed thing, or is distance always in miles
| there? Do people use metric for everything else? (I've heard
| Brits quote their weight loss in stones which makes me feel
| positively progressive)
|
| Update, Wikipedia:
|
| " Most of government, industry and commerce use metric units,
| but imperial units are officially used to specify journey
| distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk
| containers, beer and cider glasses, and fresh milk is often
| still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent
| also marked. Imperial units are also often used to describe
| body measurements and vehicle fuel economy. In schools,
| metric units are taught and used as the norm. " https://en.m.
| wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Ki...
| iso1631 wrote:
| Do you think a plastic vehicle will fare any better in a
| collision with the average American SUV or truck?
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Given that you can kill all the occupants of an American
| SUV by getting a fat person to take a good run up and kick
| the bumper hard, I'd say yes.
|
| At anything above a walking pace shunt in a typical Yank
| Tank, your insides are mush.
| rwmj wrote:
| This particular vehicle has no safety features, but an EV
| with some safety features is likely safer as well as being
| more visible.
|
| I wish there was cycling infrastructure and lower speed
| limits, but that's not how it is now. I used to own an
| e-bike here and it wasn't very practical.
| HNDV wrote:
| At medium/higher speed collisions? no it wouldn't fare
| better. But at city street level collision? oh yeah it
| would fare a huge amount better actually. Not all
| collisions are the compact this metal box into a smaller
| cube type of collision.
|
| At 30km/h and lower cyclists have a risk that simply does
| not exist for a vehicle like the ami and other cheap car
| like vehicles : being driven over. A car can kill a cyclist
| while driving as low as 1 kilometer per hour if the cyclist
| fell on the ground and the car is running the cyclist over.
| You can't "drive over" an ami. Unless you're driving a
| Monster Truck.
|
| As a cyclist I am extremely paranoid about things like
| blind sides on larger vehicles because it takes very little
| to kill you. VERY. LITTLE.
| voidfunc wrote:
| Biking sucks, it is dangerous and uncomfortable in snow, rain,
| cold, and heat.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| What are the death rates for bicyclists vs small cars like
| this? I recently considered a motorcycle and the death rates
| were too appalling for me to go through with it. Having a metal
| cage around you and windows is too vital for me.
|
| Edit: I found this.
|
| >The motorcycle fatality rate is over 17 times greater, and
| bicycle fatality rates are nearly 10 times greater than that
| for automobiles.
| layer8 wrote:
| The question is how often bikes get into an accident vs.
| cars, relative to the number of comparable trips made, which
| is difficult to measure. The above statistics probably only
| tell you that _if_ you get into an accident that happens to
| get reported, what is your relative survival rate then. It's
| not surprising that bike riders have a lower survival rate
| when a car is involved. That doesn't mean that bike riders in
| general have a lower life expectancy than car drivers.
| spacedcowboy wrote:
| It took being hit by a car three times (two minor
| collisions, the last one hospitalized me) for me to give up
| on the e-bike idea. Car drivers (at least in the Bay Area)
| are not ready for bikes going at speed, IMHO, they just
| don't look, or at least, they don't _see_.
|
| This thing might work out better than the bike because it's
| a lot more visible, but I actually doubt there'd be much
| take-up. As someone else said, a second-hand leaf or
| similar would probably be better.
| masklinn wrote:
| An other question is, what does that become when you
| actually invest in proper bike and pedestrian
| infrastructure?
| cycomanic wrote:
| There are actually studies (e.g. mentioned here
| https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cyclists-live-
| longer-a...) which show that people who commute by bike
| live the longest.
| missedthecue wrote:
| Almost 100% of fatal bicycle accidents involve a vehicle. In
| urban areas where cars are banned or unable to navigate, the
| cycling death rate is basically zero.
|
| It's sort of like a market failure. It's in everyone's best
| interest to ride bicycles, but since we can't individually
| control what everyone else does, it's in our best interest to
| ride automobiles -- thus continuing the safety issue.
| tobz1000 wrote:
| bambax wrote:
| I've been driving a motorcycle for over 30 years; I still own
| one although I never use it anymore. I may die today on my
| bicycle but one thing is certain: I'm too old to die young.
| HNDV wrote:
| I live near Montpellier in France and I also live with a
| bicycle as my main method of transportation, but I can
| understand the appeal of something like the Ami for a lot of
| people. It takes dedication to be a cyclist during storms.
| jfengel wrote:
| As I understand it, cars are increasingly banned in downtown
| Paris (even glorified electric bikes like this).
|
| I haven't been since before pandemic but I really want to see
| that. It sounds like a great experiment.
| romwell wrote:
| >cars are increasingly banned in downtown Paris
|
| I _drove_ in Paris past August, and didn 't notice any bans.
|
| Parking availaibility and price varies a lot, but it's
| workable.
| stuaxo wrote:
| They have pedestrianised some roads, but its hyperbolic to
| say they have "banned cars", there are plenty of places to
| drive if you you need to.
| abyssin wrote:
| They've been running that experiment with great success in
| the Netherlands since the 1970s. It's great to see, and even
| better to experience in your everyday life. I love feeling
| connected to my environment.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| The Netherlands is not a regular country and cannot be used
| as a template for any other country in the World, except
| maybe some flat urban area, like Copenhagen, or the Vatican
| (which has a few hills more than the Netherlands BTW)
|
| p.s. Dutch did not like to hear this, but somebody had to
| say it.
| jokteur wrote:
| People cycle in the city of Lausanne (Switzerland), which
| has a 500m height difference between its lowest point and
| highest point.
|
| Of course nobody is doing these 500m every day, but its
| common to see parents bring their children to school by
| electric bike, and maybe doing 100m of height elevation.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I don't think that Berlin has substantially more
| mountains in the city than Amsterdam. I live on one of
| the molehills that pretend to be a mountain and I have
| 22m of height difference to the river. It's noticeable
| but hardly insurmountable.
| abyssin wrote:
| I'm a daily cyclist in Brussels and my city is far from
| flat.
| entropicgravity wrote:
| The meek shall inherent the earth.
| troysk wrote:
| These cars are carbon positive in most cities as they increase
| pollution. These slow moving vehicles are slowing down traffic
| behind them. I see similar vehicles in and around my city in
| India and they end up clogging the lanes. As most of us are on
| ICE vehicles, we end up spending more time driving and increasing
| pollution.
| upofadown wrote:
| What is the speed limit in your city? Most gas cars are most
| efficient at something like 60 kmh. This thing goes 45 kmh. So
| not _that_ much difference for efficiency[1]. After all, we are
| talking about a vehicle that is only 20-30% efficient to start
| with.
|
| [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Speed-fuel-
| consumption-c...
| zahma wrote:
| I see teenagers driving these things because I think they have
| such low horsepower that they don't require the regular class of
| driver's license.
| domh wrote:
| The Citreon Ami was featured on a recent episode of Top Gear,
| along with 2 other similar vehicles. They drive them around Paris
| doing various challenges. Link (if you're in the UK or have
| access to a VPN):
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001f0wl/top-gear-seri...
| kube-system wrote:
| Calling these "cars" is clickbait to make these sound novel. But,
| NEVs like this (and even better than this) have been around for
| decades.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classi...
|
| Part of the reason they are so cheap is that they are legally
| _not_ cars, and therefore are exempt from many regulations that
| make cars expensive.
| gtirloni wrote:
| *> exempt from many regulations that make cars expensive.
|
| Which I never understood.
|
| If you're driving in the middle of the road, why does it matter
| if it's a NEV or a 18-wheeler? I think the same rules should
| apply.
|
| That NEV can be rear-ended by a regular car at 80km/h and the
| car driver will be fine with their airbags and whatnot while
| the NEV driver is probably dead.
| benj111 wrote:
| So do bicycles need airbags and side impact protection and
| abs too then?
| imoverclocked wrote:
| You shouldn't be on roads that are heavily trafficked by fast
| moving vehicles with this kind of vehicle in the first place.
|
| I own an electric Ranger (not Highway legal) for around my
| place and it fills a real need. There is no need for airbags
| or anything of the like on it. I didn't even bother
| purchasing it with a windshield. The biggest threat to me in
| that vehicle is the dense vegetation and steep hills I often
| drive through.
|
| I think there is an expectation around safety levels of
| different kinds of vehicles. If I buy a car that is capable
| of going 100mph, I expect it to have features that will help
| me survive a crash in those conditions. However, a motorcycle
| is a completely different kind of vehicle with different
| expectations. I don't think a reasonable motorcyclist expects
| any thing remotely close in safety to that of a car despite
| also being able to reach the same conditions.
| kube-system wrote:
| The idea is that they're not intended to be used in most
| vehicle traffic. Their intended purpose is more like the way
| people use golf carts in the US. And often, they fall under
| the same or similar regulations. If you look at the spec
| sheets, really the main difference between these and a golf
| cart are the doors.
|
| There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you need. But
| it ain't a car, at least not for people in North America.
| satya71 wrote:
| If Mahindra[1] or Gayam[2] would put some doors on their electric
| tuktuks, they'd have this thing beat pretty handily, IMO.
|
| [1] https://www.mahindraelectric.com/vehicles/treo-electric-
| auto... [2] https://gayammotorworks.com/
| svnpenn wrote:
| > 28mph top speed
|
| please no one buy this. I purchased a vehicle similar to this
| years ago, and while fun, the top speed was ALWAYS an issue. Even
| on surface streets, its too slow, so you end up essentially
| redlining for the entire trip, and even then its too slow. Unless
| this is purely as second "toy vehicle" for you, don't buy this.
| Get something that can go at least 40.
| rjsw wrote:
| All the roads between me and the nearest big supermarket have a
| speed limit of 20mph.
| svnpenn wrote:
| right, but you understand that people go other places besides
| the supermarket right? hence why I said "toy vehicle". If you
| are only using this for a single destination, then its not a
| general purpose vehicle, its a "toy vehicle" or "single
| purpose" vehicle.
| instagraham wrote:
| > Hundreds of Ami rentals line Parisian streets, which you can
| hire for just EUR0.26-a-minute (with a subscription fee of
| EUR9.90 per month). It's probably nicer - and more hygienic -
| than taking the Metro.
|
| >And you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in
| France!
|
| > Anyone as young as 14 with a 'voiture sans permis' - a
| certificate to show you've passed a basic road safety course -
| can hit the road. And because a licence isn't required, they're
| [reportedly] proving popular among the country's fraternity of
| disqualified motorists. 'The drink-driver's vehicle of choice'
| probably isn't a slogan you'll see on advertising billboards,
| though.
|
| Interesting USP. We saw a similar thing in India when rental
| e-scooters started appearing everywhere. Basically they're the
| cheapest and best ways to 'drive' drunk from pub to pub. Why
| would you want to drive drunk just because you can? Because the
| only legal mode of transport - cabs - cost 3-4x more during
| drinking hours at night. So these were quite popular for that.
|
| Over time, however, they got completely taken over by delivery
| agents, who found it cheaper per mile than any other vehicle
| hanche wrote:
| Huh. I owned a Citroen Ami back in the seventies. It was a gas
| car (two cylinder air cooled engine), much like the 2CV but made
| to look a bit more like a conventional car. Interesting that they
| decided to reuse the name.
| mlok wrote:
| Note : "ami" means "friend" in French. I knew about the old Ami
| (but young people this car is aimed at do not know about it)
| but I think this is a welcomed reuse of that name.
| User23 wrote:
| > So it has zero airbags. No crash crumple zones. Not a single
| electronic safety aid. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes
|
| Yeah, no thanks.
| 404mm wrote:
| I love this as a concept. Small, lightweight and ..slow to be
| fairly safe. The issue is how to integrate it with the rest of
| the established world. How do you have a little car sharing road
| with 3ton trucks and speeds 50-70mpg (_read_ 70-90mph, yah, this
| is Texas).
|
| Sadly this vehicle is what vast majority of people really need
| for daily commute and errands. It's silly to push for ride
| sharing.
| masklinn wrote:
| > How do you have a little car sharing road with 3ton trucks
| and speeds 50-70mpg (_read_ 70-90mph, yah, this is Texas).
|
| You don't because this thing is not highway legal and should
| not be interacting with vehicles going anywhere near 70. It's
| an _urban_ vehicle.
| mellosouls wrote:
| A classic _Top Gear_ feature on the even more snug Peel P50:
|
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo
| domh wrote:
| And who can forget the P45 that they created:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFdBcYN3sNw which is even
| smaller, though only one of them is in existence afaik.
|
| It's actually at Beaulieu Motor Museum, where I happened to
| visit last week! They have a whole permanent Top Gear section.
| Would recommend a visit if you're ever in this part of the
| world https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/attractions/national-motor-
| museum...
| zhte415 wrote:
| > it has zero airbags. No crash crumple zones. Not a single
| electronic safety aid. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes
| rwmj wrote:
| If I did get one, I'd want it to be painted in day-glo orange.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Exactly. This isn't really a car. It is a fancy electric golf
| cart with doors.
| duxup wrote:
| I like the open nature of a golf cart.
|
| I kinda wish I lived in a golf cart community.
| bombcar wrote:
| You might be able to turn yours into one, just start
| driving one!
|
| https://www.clubcar.com/en-us/personal/street-legal-
| vehicles
| masklinn wrote:
| I mean that's literally in the base blurb, it's an electric
| quadricycle.
| implements wrote:
| Yeah, it's effectively an enclosed four-wheel 'bicycle
| quality' type vehicle - and I imagine a huge chunk of the
| asking price is to cover the 5.5 kWh lithium battery.
|
| I'd like one, but not for PS8,000 - an electric bakfiet
| (cargo bike) seems better value for money.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| > It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes
|
| It doesn't go fast enough for them to work.
| stefan_ wrote:
| You are not meant to take it on a highway, either. It's a bit
| like saying "pedestrians have zero airbags, crush crumple zones
| are bones" - you are soo close to getting it!
| masklinn wrote:
| > You are not meant to take it on a highway, either.
|
| At a top speed of 28mph, it's literally illegal to take it on
| a highway in most of the world.
| bombcar wrote:
| Over here in America we're at the forefront of developing
| pedestrians with airbags and crumple zones.
|
| Unfortunately actually walking seems to remove them again,
| but top scientists are on it.
| hansvm wrote:
| > no boot
|
| Anyone else go into this hoping to see a lack of excessive
| infotainment and other electronics and their associated boot
| times (looks like that's mostly also true for this, but not the
| highlight of the article)?
| sigitprayitno wrote:
| Tade0 wrote:
| The ultimate stage of evolution in personal urban transportation
| is the golf cart.
|
| On one end you have increasingly fat cargo bikes - some have
| roofs or windshields.
|
| On the other there are kei-cars, heavy quadricycles like the
| Twizy and now this.
|
| Like sea creatures evolving into crabs, it's converging into the
| perfect form.
| Markoff wrote:
| What's benefit in this over electric scooter (moped)? Slightly
| better protection against weather and little bit more cargo
| space?
|
| Electric scooter will be much easier to park, will have
| longer/same range, will be cheaper/same, will be easier to get
| through congestion and can also ride two people.
|
| I'd for sure trade trunk and roof for parking/maneuverability.
| nayuki wrote:
| It's nice to see that the Citroen Ami weighs around 500 kg. In a
| crash with a person/vehicle/building, it's going to do less
| damage than a typical sedan weighing ~1500 kg.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric_veh...
| eastbound wrote:
| Can't be used to hurt people. Downside, people can carry it,
| for example move it when it's misplaced, or steal it.
| nayuki wrote:
| > people can carry it, for example move it when it's
| misplaced
|
| This can be an advantage when a misparked car is blocking a
| tram. https://youtu.be/wRPnSHDp3HI?t=34
| robin_reala wrote:
| ...it's 500kg. I don't think you're picking it up and walking
| away with it.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| My old Citroen AX weighed about 650kg. I used to park it in
| spaces about 6" longer than the car by getting the nose in
| as close to the kerb as I could, leaving it out of gear,
| and then getting out, picking it up by the back bumper like
| a big wheelbarrow, and bouncing it sideways into the space.
| wongarsu wrote:
| A 500kg car takes about five people to lift up. It's light
| enough that it can be moved if it had to (blocking emergency
| responders, trams, etc), but too heavy to be moved on a whim
| mrtksn wrote:
| 500kg is still a lot, Suzuki Swift is about 850kg and Lotus
| Elise is 730kg. These are full cars with proper safety,
| performance and features.
|
| IMHO the only proper safety about this car is its low speed and
| I'm curious about the situation with car collusions. Ami might
| be slow but this doesn't mean that can't be in a high speed
| collusion.
| zython wrote:
| The solution to urban mobility is less cars, not different cars
| than we have now.
|
| >She hates every second of the 1.1-mile journey home, shrinking
| into the seat to shield herself from the constant finger-points
| the Ami attracts from passers-by.
|
| >She refuses to be seen in it again.
|
| Yikes if that were my MIL I'd refuse to be seen with her too.
|
| The arrogance and dogmatized manifestation of the motorized
| individual transport in our society knows no limits.
| rwmj wrote:
| Driving 1.8 miles to the gym probably to have a go on a running
| machine is something else :-/
| dmix wrote:
| The design is brilliant, the front and back use the same piece,
| so the manufacturer only has to produce one part for both sides.
|
| In Paris 14yr olds can drive these on the road.
| freecodyx wrote:
| Built entirely in Morocco
| extasia wrote:
| Drove this car over the weekend, was pretty zippy and fun. ( I
| don't normally drive)
| frankus wrote:
| There's a (YC?) company called Nimbus working on a similar class
| of vehicle: https://nimbusev.com/. They're still pre-series-
| production IIRC but if they pull it off it's a similar price
| point for a much higher performance vehicle.
|
| There's a lot of overlap with an ebike in terms of use cases but
| when the it's cold and/or pouring down rain I'd be much more
| likely to use something like that than my ebike. Likewise when
| navigating areas with higher speeds and no bike infrastructure.
| masklinn wrote:
| Double the battery and double the speed for the same price?
|
| Yeah that sounds believable. Reminds me of the original price
| estimates for the Lightyear One.
|
| I guess they're really banking on the part where they rent it
| out for double the price.
|
| edit: spec sheet doesn't seem to pass even a cursory sniff
| test:
|
| > Nimbus One - 9 kWh (swappable)
|
| > Charge Time (0-95%) Under 5.5 hours from a standard household
| plug
|
| This is an american product so a standard household plug is
| 15A, NEC doesn't allow continuous loads (>3h) to exceed 80%, so
| you get 12A to play with. At 120V that's 1440W, which means 6
| hours (5:56 specifically) to charge the battery to 95% assuming
| the battery can handle full power for that entire range.
|
| They clearly aren't talking about a 20A circuit as by my
| reckoning that'd charge in a hair under 4:30.
| SimonPStevens wrote:
| I do love this, and hope more things like it gets made so there
| is choice. It's exactly the kind of thing I want for most of my
| day to day traveling.
|
| It's competition though is what I did instead. Last year I
| brought a 7 year old Nissan leaf.
|
| PS9,800. 22Kwh battery (probably degraded about 15%, so estimated
| actual capacity is around 18Kwh) which gives me about 85 miles
| range with the current battery state. And I get a decent sized
| boot, 5 seats and 80+mph top speed.
|
| I love my leaf, and use it to commute around 20 miles total each
| day plus lots of other local travel. It's perfect as a 2nd car
| for town driving.
|
| However, that 85 mile range is only in good conditions. With the
| heating on in winter it's range is probably more like 40 miles.
| I'd say this Citroen's battery is too small for me to buy
| compared to my leaf. 46 mile range doesn't give you much spare,
| especially in winter when using heating. Unless charge points
| become a lot more ubiquitous. It shouldn't take them much to
| double the battery size though, and then I'd seriously go for
| this.
|
| (Edit to add, my leaf also has air bags and antilock breaks. What
| with it being an actual car)
| imoverclocked wrote:
| I guess this wasn't made targeting you; I'm glad not every
| vehicle being made it catering to extreme distance needs. There
| are a lot of places that are walkable or almost walkable.
| Having cheaper cars for those places that use less material
| makes it so that more people can have electric vehicles at a
| time where batteries are a major limiting factor for
| production.
| Marsymars wrote:
| It will be nice when the cheaper cars are actually cheaper in
| a useful way. Here, a new Leaf is $45k vs a new Corolla is
| $25k. The breakeven time on that for my driving patterns is
| several multiples longer the life of a car. (Not even taking
| into account that my house would need thousands of dollars of
| work to be able to practically charge an EV.)
| SimonPStevens wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd call 85miles extreme distance. It's very low
| compared to modern EVs.
|
| I'd say this Citroen is totally targeting me. My need is less
| than 20 miles a day, and I'm saying I'd be nervous about how
| little buffer that battery would give me.
|
| My point really was 46 miles range is too low, even for low
| usage. In poor conditions with heating, etc, if the range
| halves that doesn't leave any spare. Unlike an ICE you can't
| just run it close the bottom of the tank because charging
| takes time, and has limited locations.
| masklinn wrote:
| > charging takes time, and has limited locations.
|
| It does and has not though. This is a 5.5kW battery, and a
| European vehicle. So charge takes about 3h on a standard
| wall socket.
| zackmorris wrote:
| Just wanted to add a "me too" vote: 2013 Nissan Leaf bought
| used for $8900, 10 of 12 bars of battery remaining, roughly a
| 25 mile commute ~3 days per week. Miles of range: ~82@city,
| ~60@highway and ~45@freeway, minus 10 miles if using heater or
| air conditioner. It's effectively a supercar doing 0-40 mph in
| about 2-3 seconds, and there's nothing quite as satisfying as
| leaving expensive sports cars in the dust at a green light. Yes
| they roar past me at 40, but they paid 10 times more than I did
| hahaha.
|
| I don't believe in artificial limits for electric vehicles.
| There's no reason why they can't use a stronger motor, perhaps
| with extra aluminum wires (to address resource limits around
| copper and rare earth metals) that engage at high amperages so
| maybe efficiency drops from 95% to 85% while you floor it.
| There's no reason why an ultracapacitor couldn't provide twice
| the amperage for a few seconds of acceleration. $1000 for twice
| the performance would be worth it IMHO.
|
| So I see these boutique electric vehicles as kind of a gimmick.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Like you I'm happy to see these things being design, if nothing
| else as experiments. Personally I don't much see the point.
|
| 85 miles is fine for many of the thing I need a car for, but
| once in a while I need the additional range, and I don't want
| to own two cars. I also need it to be highway safe, if I'm not
| on the highway I can almost always bike.
|
| Finally: I need my car to be able to pull a trailer, not a big
| one necessarily. I have a house, some times I need to pick up
| DIY stuff, or get things to the recycling station.
|
| For people who need a car infrequently, but need it for long
| distances or larger hauls, there's very little good options,
| beyond just buying a bigger, expensive car. I could rent, but
| that limits my use, and if I do that for a couple of time a
| months I can just buy a used car for the same money.
| fattybob wrote:
| It's neat but for greater range, check out the microlino from
| those scooter people!! Oh yes, that one's not restricted for
| speed too!
| achow wrote:
| Microlino https://youtu.be/uNp_M76wIws
| csours wrote:
| The cheapest EVs and the most expensive bicycles overlap in
| price. Not exactly sure what that means, but it's interesting to
| me.
| arc-in-space wrote:
| I'm very uninformed on this but at that point why not get a
| electric quad instead?
| HNDV wrote:
| For the same reason most people are unwilling to go to work
| with a bicycle even when they live near their work. Quads are
| fun vehicles in good weather but you don't want to drive one
| when it rains the beejesus.
| phh wrote:
| > And you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in
| France!
|
| FWIW, that's wrong: only people born before 1985 ~ (i don't know
| the exact date) don't need any license. People born after that do
| require a license, which is much much lighter than standard
| driving license in France, but still requires several hours (I
| think it takes a whole day?), which I think is equivalent to what
| actual driving license in some countries.
| coredog64 wrote:
| A French driving license is an ordeal, at least compared to
| your typical US state.
| pm3003 wrote:
| This licence you can pass in a day or two, and the
| theoretical part is often done at school as a way to improve
| road safety.
| forty wrote:
| Yes, you need the "Permis AM" if you are born in 1988 or after.
| This category of cars is still often referred as "license less
| cars" though.
| [deleted]
| JodieBenitez wrote:
| Funny they brought back the "Ami" name (see
| https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_Ami_6%2C_8_et_Super)
| 10729287 wrote:
| Those cars are aimed at rich and posh kids and they represent
| majority of users here in France as it can be driven from 14.
| themoonisachees wrote:
| Yeah for that price only people who think having an electric
| bike is beneath them are going to buy that
| Milo0841 wrote:
| Any "neighborhood" car in the U.S. needs decent acceleration and
| a top speed of 45 mph to work in traffic. Even when the speed
| limit is 30 mph you'll need to speed up to pass a turning vehicle
| or to avoid a pedestrian. Anything less just isn't safe for
| everyone involved.
|
| I'm OK with small size, limited range and even the lack of safety
| features in my sedate neighborhood where I know the streets,
| potholes and driving patterns. Perfect for an hour of
| neighborhood errands with five stops, driving to the gym or the
| library. That's really all we need in a second car.
| naijaboiler wrote:
| this is a golf cart pretending to be a car.
| masklinn wrote:
| It's literally not classified as a car, and driveable by
| people who can't drive cars, how is it pretending to be a
| car? Because it has 4 wheels and is fully enclosed?
| WirelessGigabit wrote:
| Being from Europe. Where they have those tiny <45kph cars for
| which you don't need a license, thanks but no thanks. People
| don't get these because they want to. They get them because they
| cannot get a full license.
|
| So now you're on a road with a 90kph speed limit and this guy
| pulls in front of you. Maxing out at 45.
| Yeahsureok wrote:
| > and this guy pulls in front of you
|
| That sounds like your problem, not theirs?
| masklinn wrote:
| > So now you're on a road with a 90kph speed limit and this guy
| pulls in front of you. Maxing out at 45.
|
| Oh yeah, the horror. Which doesn't routinely happen. Because
| license-less cars didn't exist. And neither did farm equipment
| with a max speed of 30.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| Not to be confused with Peter Gregory's car:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango
| [deleted]
| sorenjan wrote:
| This type of "car" is quite popular in Sweden. You might think
| that such a cheap "toy car" would be for people with low income,
| but they're quite popular among teenagers younger than 18 (age
| limit for car driving license) in affluent neighborhoods.
|
| We also have a different class of "car", an "A-traktor". They're
| usually normal cars that have had their top speed limited to 30
| km/h among with some other modifications, and are classed as
| tractors. They used to need a flatbed necessitating a more
| extensive rebuild, bud that changed a while ago so now we have
| Volvo V70 and Porsche Cayennes (and a Scania 164 Topline V8) with
| 15 year olds as drivers.
|
| https://www.thelocal.se/20211021/why-do-swedish-teenagers-dr...
| highwaylights wrote:
| Or.. buy a used EV for less and give up none of those things?
| wishfish wrote:
| There's a similar selection of electric vehicles at Alibaba. I'm
| a little tempted by the electric truck on offer. On my rural
| property, it might actually be useful. Even if not useful, would
| be fun to drive around. It's not street legal, but my small town
| has no problem with ATVs & golf carts. And it has air
| conditioning.
|
| The shipping process sounds very painful, so hoping something
| like this would show up at local dealers. I'd think the ATV and
| small tractor dealers could find a market for these.
|
| Previous HN Post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32231209 A
| video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixJDOH864U
| rwmj wrote:
| If this was half the price, say PS3,500, I'd probably get one.
| The price seems wildly out of line with what you get.
|
| Also I wonder about modding - larger battery, a roof rack and a
| bright orange paint job to compensate for lack of safety
| features.
| highwaylights wrote:
| It would probably cost close to that range just for the
| battery, but it begs the question who this is for.
|
| If your budget is PS7k there are plenty of used options around
| that would involve sacrificing much less than this for about
| double the range (thinking early Leaf/Zoe/Ion).
|
| It's neat, but it reminds me of the Twizy. Just too many
| compromises to still make sense.
| HNDV wrote:
| > If your budget is PS7k there are plenty of used options
| around that would involve sacrificing much less than this for
| about double the range (thinking early Leaf/Zoe/Ion).
|
| The Zoe is a 33 000 EUR car brand new. Cars must start
| somewhere before a used market show up to cheapen them
| further. This one will be even cheaper down the road once it
| appears in the used market.
|
| As for who uses it, I know plenty of people who own one to do
| things like small size deliveries, citroen sells a version of
| this car that doesn't have a passenger seat for the sake of
| more cargo capacity. It's a pretty nifty car to have as long
| as you mostly drive it within the city, where most streets
| don't allow you to go past 30 kilometer per hour. For city
| dwellers in Europe, it works plenty fine and better than cars
| that are too big for some of the parking spots you might have
| taken with a small one like the ami.
| djhworld wrote:
| > The Zoe is a 33 000 EUR car brand new.
|
| The Zoe has been around since 2012, although you're
| probably want a model from 2015 onwards. There's a big used
| car market for Zoes out there.
|
| I get your point though, more modern EVs are only just
| coming onto the market now so it'll take a while for them
| to filter through.
| recuter wrote:
| It is <EUR1500 for the battery and <$1000 for the
| motor/inverter. People have diy built higher capacity
| electric ducati-type sports bikes on YouTube for about the
| cost of this clown car.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGDhgAUeBL8
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxTZkSj_qV4
|
| Range 200 miles, top speed above 100mph, street legal all for
| $6000-7000 by two dudes in some garage who make it up as they
| go along..
| nicoburns wrote:
| "you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in
| France"
|
| I think that might answer your question.
|
| Also, you talk about sacrificing things. Which presumably
| means you consider the alternative to be a car. But this is
| much smaller than a car, and might appeal to people who don't
| own a car and don't want to.
| opportune wrote:
| To me the size is an advantage. Living in SF this would be
| easy to park and probably more maneuverable.
|
| A used car comes with maintenance costs, and in practice for
| this price range would probably be an ICE.
|
| Personally I would be comparing this more to a micro mobility
| device than a traditional vehicle. In which case it's a
| couple times more expensive than a good e-bike but more
| convenient for errands
| whynotmaybe wrote:
| Family member own one, he permanently lost his driver license
| because of multiple dui but he can still move around the
| village with this
| genezeta wrote:
| > who this is for
|
| I've seen a few of these around my city. Also Twizy's and a
| bunch of 50cc ICE cars that you can drive with a moped
| licence.
|
| From my admittedly anecdotal information, it's mostly -90%-
| "rich kids". I mean, I don't know if they are rich,
| obviously, but they are teenagers in at least nice areas.
| I've even seen some of them around the tiny cars using them
| as a bit of _status item_.
|
| They don't need to carry much luggage, they don't need to
| carry more than 1 lucky friend / love interest, and they
| don't need to go very far or that many places.
| masklinn wrote:
| So far it seems to be very popular as an alternative to
| buying a scooter for the kid, for parents with enough income.
| Especially with the PS100/month plan.
|
| The nimbleness and ease of charge (the thing comes with
| what's essentially a hoover charging cord) make it rather
| convenient for city dwellers or close suburbanites.
|
| It's also _much_ cheaper than license-free cars (Aixam,
| Chatenet, Ligier).
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I think a lot of people who don't have electric cars don't
| realize that essentially every electric car can be charged
| with a "Hoover charging cord."
| masklinn wrote:
| Charging a Model S over an american household plug takes
| 3 days.
| csa wrote:
| > Charging a Model S over an american household plug
| takes 3 days.
|
| ... from zero to full.
|
| If you just want to top up the 30-40 miles that are
| driven in a day, then 10-12 hours overnight is fine with
| a regular plug.
|
| People ask me all the time about how long it takes me to
| charge my tesla. I tell them that it's a different
| mentality than ICE cars:
|
| 1. Instead of a cycle of low/empty --> full -->
| low/empty, it's a cycle of use --> top up when not using
| --> use. For most people, a regular wall outlet is fine.
|
| 2. If a regular wall outlet is used as the main charging
| source, then a supercharger may need to be used after
| long trips to top up. If you have days when you don't
| drive much or at all (e.g., if you work from home or have
| a short commute), then even this can be skipped since you
| will eventually get full.
|
| 3. For road trips, something people seem to think
| requires long wait times, aim to keep the battery in
| approximately the 20-60% charge range. This allows for
| two hour recurring range with a margin for error while
| maximizing battery charge speed at super chargers.
| Typical charging time will be the amount of time it takes
| to go to the bathroom and get something to drink plus
| maybe a short stretch if those things go very fast. For
| me personally, bathroom and drink of some sort at a
| nearby Starbucks (which are frequently near
| superchargers) is almost perfect timing.
|
| 4. The only genuinely sucky thing about EV charging is
| road trips during peak travel times, especially holidays.
| The current infrastructure doesn't handle peak demand
| well, but I think that will be fixed over time.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| > If you just want to top up the 30-40 miles that are
| driven in a day, then 10-12 hours overnight is fine with
| a regular plug.
|
| Okay, but you probably live in a city in the US, where
| you don't really drive.
|
| I live in Scotland, and I use my vehicle for work. I
| don't think I've done less than 100 miles any time I've
| put the keys in the ignition in years, and quite often I
| fill the tank a couple of times a day (dual-fuel LPG and
| petrol) or just burn the dirty stuff.
|
| I don't really "get" what Teslas are for. I don't need
| something that can accelerate to 60mph faster than if it
| had been thrown off a cliff - I can't imagine why you'd
| ever need to accelerate to 60mph flat out - and I don't
| really have a use for something that'll get me to work
| and then need charged for three days. Also given that
| with the cost of electricity and the cost of propane the
| way it is, it's actually cheaper to drive a V8 Range
| Rover than a Telsa, I'm just not convinced.
| csa wrote:
| Maybe all of these things are true in Scotland,
| especially your part of Scotland.
|
| In your particular use case, it would be prudent to have
| a faster charger installed at your home. It's an
| additional expense, but your use case is not typical, so
| I don't think that's unreasonable. With a slightly faster
| charger, you can go from low to full overnight. I have a
| $20 adapter that can plug into my dryer outlet (which is
| next to my garage) for days I take long day trips.
|
| The only folks I know who drive over 100 miles minimum
| every time they drive is folks with long commutes,
| salespeople, and folks who live in extremely rural areas.
|
| For some of those folks, EVs may not be the right car for
| them. That's ok -- different people have different needs
| in vehicles.
|
| The reasons I like my Tesla:
|
| - I live in a relatively small beach town/city, so almost
| everyone drives. Some things are close. Others are not.
| 10 miles to the center of town.
|
| - very low maintenance. Just tires, windshield wiper
| fluid, and air filter. Maybe brakes after 5-7 years
| (probably will not own it then).
|
| - no gas stations while starting each day at full. It's
| easy to charge in my garage. Not everyone has a garage,
| but superchargers are very common where I am, and it's
| easy to charge while shopping if necessary.
|
| - it's relatively quiet in the car
|
| - the ride is smooth
|
| - the acceleration is good on a few short on ramps that
| are unfortunately too common in my part of California.
| Otherwise, I drive fairly conservatively.
|
| - I love the clean dash design. I also love the voice
| controls and screen controls (when needed, which is
| rare).
|
| - the autopilot is very useful for my use case.
|
| - overall a very positive driving experience. It's just
| fun to drive.
|
| - Total cost of ownership is relatively low, although the
| purchase price is high. When I bought my model y, the
| purchase price was comparable to a highlander hybrid, but
| the cost of ownership after purchase is much lower for
| the Tesla (mainly due to less maintenance).
|
| Overall, my comment to people is that you will be
| miserable if you bring an ICE mentality to an EV. But the
| opposite is also true -- bringing an EV mentality to an
| ICE vehicle will be a miserable experience. ICE and EVs
| just have different patterns of use, especially regarding
| refueling/recharging and maintenance.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| So what? It has about 10 times the range of the Ami.
| Especially if you drive it at just 28mph. 8 hours of
| charging at is about enough to equal that range with a
| Model 3. And at the higher voltage of UK circuits, about
| half that.
| andrepd wrote:
| > Just too many compromises to still make sense.
|
| A huge chunk of car journeys are done to move 1 person +
| limited cargo across less than 30km roundtrip. The sort of
| journeys that could be served by a e-bike or public
| transport, but absent infrastructure for both could at least
| be served by a small car.
| [deleted]
| lormayna wrote:
| In Italy it costs 9000EUR. It's not a small price, but it's
| less expensive than minicar like Ligier.
| hadrien01 wrote:
| In France it's 7800EUR, but with government subsidies it goes
| down to 6900EUR.
|
| There are options (including the orange colour you want!), but
| the only worthwhile one is the Cargo variant (in place of the
| second seat) for 8200EUR/7300EUR. No battery upgrade.
| pantalaimon wrote:
| You'll probably be able to get a used one for that price.
| RadixDLT wrote:
| this car has french written all over it, tiny, low power, short
| range
| agumonkey wrote:
| Seen a few in my area, but not much (unlike the Zoe or Teslas).
| Always fun to see, since they're small, silent and not fast
| (safe) and I assume a lot less costly for young owners.
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