[HN Gopher] Parasite gives wolves what it takes to be pack leaders
___________________________________________________________________
Parasite gives wolves what it takes to be pack leaders
Author : gscott
Score : 198 points
Date : 2022-11-25 09:44 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| yayr wrote:
| > Physical and behavioural changes have also been found in
| people: testosterone and dopamine production is increased and
| more risks are taken.
|
| ...
|
| > Up to one-third of humans might be chronically infected.
|
| That is certainly an interesting research vector...
| drooby wrote:
| Or could it be that wolves that are already more likely to hunt
| cougars (thus eat them and get the parasite) have high risk
| taking behavior and are thus more likely to be pack leaders? And
| the parasite actually has a benign influence on the host?
| trenchgun wrote:
| Could be, but there are mechanisms which explain how toxoplasma
| creates the risky bhaviour: by increasing testosterone
| production.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33742779
| snshn wrote:
| Elon Musk is probably full of 'em.
| tgv wrote:
| I don't see anything in that article that makes the conclusion
| inevitable. It's a remarkable correlation for sure, but
| unfortunately it doesn't go beyond that. There's no pathway from
| infection to leadership (just a vague hypothesis that doesn't
| resemble the mechanism in rats and hyenas), and it doesn't look
| as if they looked at uninfected pack leaders. Perhaps pack
| leaders or strays eat more dead cat, or some other intermediate
| host of T.gondii. Perhaps they sampled in the wrong time frame.
| The full article might have more info, but the linked one
| doesn't.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| I haven't read the paper either, but I must say the operation
| of parasites as elements in complex biological super-systems is
| absolutely fascinating. Ants that march to the top of trees
| under the influence of fungus spores trying to be eaten by
| birds. Fish that commit suicide by swimming toward predators as
| part of a parasitic lifecycle.... evolution is truly
| miraculous.
|
| Another apocryphal story is cats carrying Toxoplasma Gondii
| make some people really like cats. So maybe mad cat lady
| syndrome is treatable with drugs :)
|
| Who knows what super-systems we are unwittingly a part of. That
| seems an interesting area for big-data + AI hypothesis
| synthesis - we may find new explanations or even whole new
| branches of behaviour in psychology.
| novosel wrote:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31980266/
| pydry wrote:
| Things also get interesting if you look at economic and
| social systems in this context.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| For sure. Married people barely vote Democratic. Given
| that, what kind of society will the Democratic Party seek
| to create?
| pfisch wrote:
| How do you know you're not just catching cross
| correlation with age?
| bena wrote:
| Age, socio-economic status, and other confounding
| factors.
|
| Not to mention, according to him, 40% is "barely".
| jesushax wrote:
| He probably didn't have the stat off the top of his head,
| so it was exaggerated based on assumptions. But the
| underlying intuition had a kernel of truth and applies to
| any political party, or any institution, really. For
| example, if an organization dedicated to the poor mainly
| draws support from poor people, they have a kind of
| incentive to subtly maintain poverty.
|
| This theory that institutions kind of have a tendency to
| perpetuate the conditions that necessitate their
| existence was developed by Durkheim, and like most of the
| other early sociologists, I really recommend it over
| newer stuff. It's not conspiratorial, the idea is that
| organizations that do this outsurvive groups that
| legitimately solve the problems they are created to
| solve, and so through an evolutionary process, the
| longest lived and deepest institutions tend to be ones
| with behaviors ironically antithetical to their supposed
| mission (even if the members of the institution totally
| believe in and earnestly support the mission).
|
| The typical example (at least when I was into this kind
| of stuff) is the Catholic Church earnestly helping the
| poor, but doing so in a way that societaly, will never
| actually alleviate poverty, or may even exacerbate it.
| Now days I tend to hear this line of thinking used about
| liberals supporting policies that "help" minorities but
| really perpetuate the cycle of poverty.
|
| Whether you believe this is beside the point, I only mean
| to suggest that OP is wrong, but a steelman of his point
| is deeper than it seems, and deserves our good faith imo.
| qnr wrote:
| Same general idea: it's not in the dating apps' best
| interest to get their users into successful long-term
| relationships and out of the dating pool.
| bena wrote:
| thaumasiotes was saying married people vote Republican
| more often. pfisch was suggesting he was actually
| witnessing a separate correlation. Older people tend to
| vote Republican more often, older people are more often
| married than younger people.
|
| I was suggesting that there are other things that go into
| even the age issue.
|
| Religious people are more likely to marry than non-
| religious people. Religious people tend to vote more
| conservatively than non-religious people. Etc. etc. I was
| agreeing with pfisch that a lot of the reasons people get
| married often line up with reasons why people vote
| Republican.
|
| And I wouldn't say the Catholic Church believes its
| mission to be to eliminate poverty. Or even alleviate it.
| They want to temporarily alleviate the superficial
| effects of poverty on people.
| klipt wrote:
| Yes you could definitely make an argument that democrats
| benefit from poverty, or that republicans benefit from
| illegal immigration. People in poverty receiving benefits
| vote democrat because they're afraid republicans will cut
| benefits. People who fear illegal immigrants taking their
| jobs will vote republican because they think republicans
| will be tougher on illegal immigration. If democrats
| actually solved poverty or if republicans actually
| deported 100% of illegal immigrants, a lot of people
| would lose their reasons to vote for those parties.
|
| Arguably by the same reasoning, republicans benefit from
| legal abortion and their finally getting Roe v Wade
| reversed was terrible for their electoral performance.
| salawat wrote:
| >Arguably by the same reasoning, republicans benefit from
| legal abortion and their finally getting Roe v Wade
| reversed was terrible for their electoral performance.
|
| You aborted your analysis too early. Getting Roe v. Wade
| overturned still benefits Republicans until such time as
| Legislation is successfully passed to outlaw abortion at
| all levels (i.e. State & Federal, though arguably we're
| talking Republican here, so one would think they'd
| content themselves with States). Only then would the
| "problem" be solved.
| jesushax wrote:
| You are completely correct, I didn't mean to argue
| against the Dems, just noting that I hear this critique
| raised against them a lot.
|
| >Arguably by the same reasoning, republicans benefit from
| legal abortion and their finally getting Roe v Wade
| reversed was terrible for their electoral performance.
|
| Indeed, the far-right has raised exactly this criticism
| of overturning Roe v Wade:
|
| >If you have limited energy and a limited number of
| possible wins, it is important to focus your limited
| energy on one kind of win: wins that make future wins
| easier. By definition, these are the kinds of wins that
| augment your power. These are real wins. > >There is
| another kind of "win," wins which expend your power in
| order to achieve some result you want. These are
| sometimes called "Pyrrhic victories." Pyrrhus took the
| battlefield, but after the battle his chances of winning
| were reduced. His tactical "victory" was a strategic
| defeat.
|
| Source: You can only lose the culture war
| (https://graymirror.substack.com/p/you-can-only-lose-the-
| cult...)
|
| This kind of thinking isn't partisan, I think it
| describes the a problem that occurs with institutions in
| any society. I'm not sure what the solution is, other
| than to be collectively vigilant against institutions
| succumbing to these tendencies. Which seems woefully
| inadequate.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Not to mention, according to him, 40% is "barely".
|
| You might want to think about what a 20-point margin
| means in electoral politics. Taking 60% of the vote is
| routinely described in terms like "landslide victory".
| shkkmo wrote:
| Married people make about half the Democratic voter base,
| so your reasoning seems flawed at best.
|
| Not to mention that a large part of the relative under
| representation of married people in the Democratic voter
| base is due to relative over representation of younger
| people.
| voltaireodactyl wrote:
| This is a fascinating and unexpected piece of
| information. I would be very intrigued to read your
| source.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Here's CNN's exit poll for November 2022:
| https://www.cnn.com/election/2022/exit-polls/national-
| result...
|
| Unmarried women vote Democratic, 68-31.
|
| Unmarried men vote Republican, 52-45.
|
| Married women, Republican, 56-42.
|
| Married men, Republican, 59-39.
|
| Here's an image purporting to describe the Reuters-Ipsos
| poll of 2012: https://i.imgur.com/I3ycNpC.png . (I
| haven't been able to find the actual poll.) It only gives
| the Republican share of the vote for each demographic,
| but Republicans+Democrats should be close to 100% of the
| vote. 1992 is an exception.
|
| Unmarried women, 31% Republican.
|
| Unmarried men, 41% Republican.
|
| Married women, 55% Republican.
|
| Married men, 58% Republican.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Most likely Democrat couples don't feel the need to marry
| at the same rate as Republicans.
|
| Anyhow, the quoted figures doesn't exactly show that
| married people "barely vote Republican".
| salawat wrote:
| Sampling bias: those that respond to polls.
| dtgriscom wrote:
| We went from wolf parasites to "Democrats want to prevent
| marriage", via exaggerated polling data. How does this
| add to our conversation?
| tafda wrote:
| " Republicans lead among married men (51%-38%), while
| married women are evenly divided (44% Republican, 44%
| Democratic). "
| https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2015/04/07/a-deep-
| dive-...
|
| That's out of more than 60 million married couples in the
| US. Barely here equals about half?
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Barely here equals about half?
|
| Well, first, married women are not evenly divided. They
| are more Republican and less Democratic than unmarried
| men, who are also Republican.
|
| Second, even by the numbers you cite, Democrats aren't
| coming close to half of the vote among married couples.
|
| Third, you have over 11% of the vote going to third
| parties. In reality, in 2016 the two-party vote share was
| just over 94%.
|
| Some of these problems seem to arise from you confusing
| party affiliation with voting. They're different.
| freeflight wrote:
| _> Perhaps they sampled in the wrong time frame. The full
| article might have more info, but the linked one doesn 't._
|
| The data was collected over nearly 27 years, the link to the
| full open access paper is in the references;
| https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs42003-022-04122-0
| simonh wrote:
| They looked at animals that were and were not infected,
| throughout their lives, and saw what they did, so they knew
| whether the animals were infected or not before they became
| pack leaders. From the article:
|
| >The team looked at 256 blood samples from 229 wolves, which
| had been carefully watched throughout their lives, and had
| their life histories and social status recorded. Meyer and
| Cassidy found that infected wolves were 11 times more likely
| than uninfected ones to leave their birth family to start a new
| pack, and 46 times more likely to become pack leaders -- often
| the only wolves in the pack that breed.
| fergal_reid wrote:
| Havent read the paper, but your quote doesn't change the core
| point that it could be correlation.
|
| E.g. perhaps aggression makes them more likely to eat
| infected animals and also more likely to challenge for
| leadership.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| I had this thought but doesn't the pack mostly eat the same
| thing?
| brohee wrote:
| Not those that set out on their own, and thus are more
| likely to catch rodent while alone than feasting on big
| prey with the pack...
|
| Unless they can pinpoint the infection and a subsequent
| behavior change, it's not super conclusive.
|
| It's like concluding catching an IST makes you more
| promiscuous, even if that would likely be supported by
| statistics...
| stared wrote:
| Potetnially related: "Men Who Owned Cats As Kids May Have Higher
| Psychosis Risk" https://www.iflscience.com/men-who-owned-cats-as-
| kids-may-ha...
| msrenee wrote:
| That article uses psychosis and schizophrenia interchangeably.
| There's also no mention of the familial nature of
| schizophrenia. There's a genetic link in many cases and there's
| been work in that area that's starting to identify particular
| genes that are associated with the disorder.
|
| It could be that infection with T. gondii is sometimes the
| difference between simply having a predisposition towards
| schizophrenia and actually developing the symptoms. Pot use in
| the late teens and early 20s can have the same effect. It
| doesn't cause schizophrenia, but it may be a trigger than leads
| a genetically predisposed individual to develop the disorder.
| c3534l wrote:
| How do we know that risk-taking doesn't lead to a higher rates of
| parasitic infection?
| manv1 wrote:
| Pussy changes everything?
| californiadreem wrote:
| Squeaky meal gets the grease.
| jokoon wrote:
| I'm still not very convinced of the scientific definition of
| "pack leader".
|
| Behavior science is sensitive to interpretation, in my view.
|
| It's a human bias to see human concepts in other species.
| jonplackett wrote:
| What do you mean by that? I thought it was a pretty
| accepted/normal thing for wolves to have a pack leader?
| goodpoint wrote:
| https://phys.org/news/2021-04-wolf-dont-alpha-males-
| females....
|
| https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/
| goodpoint wrote:
| And why the silent downvotes?
| Communitivity wrote:
| The research results are an interesting find and good work. They
| indicate a clear need for more research. They aren't conclusive
| as is, at least with the limited info I found (I haven't found a
| papers archive from The Wolf Society 2022 conference, so I had to
| go by press articles). Sample size of 229 seems small,
| considering the diversity among wolf packs. For example, were
| these wolves from one state vs multiple states. Getting a larger
| sample size would be hard but not impossible if the study lasted
| a long time. Science is about building a stairway - 99% steps 1%
| momentous landings that built on all the steps before them. This
| work is a good solid step.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Yep, who would imagine that animals in societies tend to
| discriminate against the ill and diseased.
| codexjourneys wrote:
| Bringing my comments over from the other submission:
|
| Not just wolves. Toxoplasma infection also "may make people look
| more attractive to the opposite sex":
| https://www.earth.com/news/parasite-makes-infected-people-lo...
|
| Is this because it increases risk-taking behavior? Who knows, but
| it's interesting that something with potentially significant
| health drawbacks may have enough benefits that it's evolved to
| coexist with us (up to 50% of people carry it).
|
| Overall, it looks increasingly like microbes shape our behavior
| and emotional health:
| https://www.science.org/content/article/evidence-mounts-gut-...
| [deleted]
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| it would be fascinating to see a plot of toxoplasma gondii
| hitting the first page of HN vs time.
|
| It seems periodic, and i'm not kidding. (kinda like Jodi Foster
| in Contact with the headphones on)
|
| Not this time, but usually it's a revelation about the protozoan
| with mice being fearless around cats, or about humans living with
| cats, with associated proposals of drama, perhaps to drive
| pageviews.
| Trouble_007 wrote:
| Also; Grey wolves infected with this parasite are more likely to
| become pack leaders :
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33738581
| the_af wrote:
| It's the same news, reported in two different places.
| Trouble_007 wrote:
| I reiterate;
|
| Toxoplasma gondii :
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii
|
| Risk factors for human infection : https://en.wikipedia.org/w
| iki/Toxoplasma_gondii#Immune_respo...
| the_af wrote:
| Before, you linked to another article about wolves which
| was basically the same article that is linked at the top of
| this thread.
|
| So "also, Grey Wolves" -- the "also" is redundant, since
| it's about the same wolves both times, and the finding is
| the same.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| > Cassidy found that infected wolves were 11 times more likely
| than uninfected ones to leave their birth family to start a new
| pack, and 46 times more likely to become pack leaders
|
| I thought we now believe that wolf packs are purely family units
| - mother, father and their cubs. There's no alpha wolves leading
| a pack of other male and female wolves, just stray wolves and
| family units. So a wolf pack is only comprised of the leader and
| its cubs.
|
| https://wolf.org/wolf-info/wild-kids/wolf-families
| henrydark wrote:
| I don't k ow anything about wolves or parasites, but those two
| things don't contradict each other. Maybe wolves with the
| parasite are exactly more likely to form such a family unit
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Perhaps its just bad wording and they mean "they are 11 times
| more likely than uninfected ones to leave their birth family
| (BUT don't necessarily start a new pack), and 46 times more
| likely to (create a pack and) become pack leaders.
| stared wrote:
| It is how I read that. They start their faimilies. Alpha
| male/female = parents. A pack is their extended family.
| Alan_Dillman wrote:
| Sure, but there has to be stray wolves forming new packs. Every
| pack in existence started that way. While there is no fight for
| who will be "The Alpha", obviously there is a patriarch and
| matriarch of the pack.
| Kiboneu wrote:
| It's impressive to see T. Gondii evolve to influence their hosts
| to write positive PR.
|
| Joking aside, it makes sense to me that higher risk behavior on
| the host's part would increase a parasite's spread, since some of
| the energy that drives risk also increases the rate of physical
| interaction with the world; like a free roaming particle with a
| lot of momentum on a substrate. It is good to see more research
| looking into this since this seems to be low hanging fruit
| compared to possible compound effects of t. gondii influence on
| society.
| psychphysic wrote:
| Ha!
|
| It's good research but there is a major caveat I didn't see it
| in this press release.
|
| Before they answer questions like yours they need to have
| tracked when infection occured.
|
| Simple conundrum are wolves who are infected with t. Gondii
| more likely to leave their pack? Or are wolves that leave their
| pack more likely to get infected?
|
| Similarly for pack leaders. It might seem obtuse to ask for
| this but it is important to disentangle somewhat cause and
| correlation.
|
| In humans it's theorised to increase risk of car accidents
| (based on a french study monitoring speeding and traffic rule
| obedience).
| periheli0n wrote:
| Why do press releases always have to oversell the findings? I
| think it plays into the hands of science deniers.
|
| I can see how press departments could claim that they're only
| doing their job, but it's potentially unethical and
| dangerous.
| ShamelessC wrote:
| Probably a good idea to critique the paper, not the press
| release. I haven't read it but for all you know they could
| have discussed this at length.
| sigmoid10 wrote:
| They discuss it briefly and it turns out the above
| commenter is 100% correct in his assessment. Relevant quote
| from the paper:
|
| >Given the correlational nature of the study, observed
| patterns may not be causal; for example, higher risk-takers
| could be more likely to be both entrepreneurial and exposed
| to T. gondii [...], thereby driving the correlation.
|
| Remember that while it might sound amazing that a parasite
| could steer higher cognitive functions towards something as
| abstract as being more entrepreneurial, there is no
| practicable mechanism suggested so far and until someone
| figures out if it is even possible, all these studies are
| to be handled with care.
| ShamelessC wrote:
| My point remains - thank you for following up with what
| appears to be a proper criticism.
| Kiboneu wrote:
| > there is no practicable mechanism suggested so far
|
| There is, actually. T. Gondii has the genes to make
| tyrosine hydroxylase which is a dopamine precursor. It
| also visibly modifies rodent behavior around cat urine.
| Robert Sapolsky is one of many researchers narrowing in a
| mechanistic model of how parasites can influence host
| behavior.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17404235/
| https://www.edge.org/conversation/robert_sapolsky-toxo
|
| Edit:
|
| Steering higher-order behavior by modifying reward
| circuits is possible and overtly practiced in many types
| of (mostly superficial) human relationships,
| organizational interfaces and societal structures.
| nahuel0x wrote:
| If a parasite gives the host a competitive advantage, is really a
| parasite?
| Kognito wrote:
| "Semi-dormant tissue cysts form in the brain, eyes and heart
| muscle, persisting the infection for life"
|
| "Can also infect humans"
|
| Well that doesn't give me nightmares at all.
| sva_ wrote:
| > In the United States it is estimated that 11% of the
| population 6 years and older have been infected with
| Toxoplasma. In various places throughout the world, it has been
| shown that more than 60% of some populations have been infected
| with Toxoplasma.
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/toxoplasmosis/epi.html
| parhamn wrote:
| I really don't get T. Gondii. I read all these article about how
| it might be affecting us, a source of mental health disorders, so
| on and so on. And it is very common in household cats + a lot of
| people already have it. CDC says, "While the parasite is found
| throughout the world, more than 40 million people in the United
| States may be infected with the Toxoplasma parasite." I assume
| present tense means currently infected?
|
| Genuinely curious, why aren't we doing an annual anti-parasitic
| or something given the drugs are relatively benign?
| tehchromic wrote:
| I had heard the relationship between countries with better
| football teams having higher rates of t gondii, now it all makes
| sense
| bof_ wrote:
| Tell me about it.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| So.. Chad parasites.
|
| I'm off to find a parasite, wish me luck.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Fucking amazing...
|
| How does it know what gene to promote? Its hard to beleive that
| such "primitive" organizm promotes exploration and risky behavior
| in number of different animals.
| nix23 wrote:
| Can we please do the same study with politicians?
| msrenee wrote:
| I think you're being facetious, but that would actually be an
| interesting segment of the population to look at for prevalence
| of T. gondii. I'd really like to see that study.
| nix23 wrote:
| Well no, it's was kind of a real question..but also with "the
| elon's of the world"
| pvaldes wrote:
| Parasitized wolves (omegas being forced to eat the rotten
| leftovers) are losers that are often chased off the pack.
|
| And most of them die for that.
|
| Two titles. Same article; just without the starry-eyed
| documentary lens
| hellfish wrote:
| > Up to one-third of humans might be chronically infected.
|
| > Infections with toxoplasmosis are associated with a variety of
| neuropsychiatric and behavioral conditions
|
| > Research on human vaccines is ongoing.
|
| I say 5 years before we have a moral panic about this
| nathan_compton wrote:
| Can't wait till pickup artist types are infecting themselves on
| purpose so they can be more alpha.
| BlueTemplar wrote:
| > possibly even increasing their chances of encountering
| cougars and exposing more members to infection
|
| (I'll get my coat.)
| [deleted]
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Was this entire comment section generated by GPT-3?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> Up to one-third of humans might be chronically infected._
|
| That explains so much...
| FirstLvR wrote:
| This whole post and comments are just incredible ... can we
| predict one society success purely on parasite composition?
| [deleted]
| meindnoch wrote:
| "Risky business: linking Toxoplasma gondii infection and
| entrepreneurship behaviours across individuals and countries"
| (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30051870/)
|
| >Among professionals attending entrepreneurship events, T.
| gondii-positive individuals were 1.8x more likely to have started
| their own business compared with other attendees (n = 197).
| Finally, after synthesizing and combining country-level databases
| on T. gondii infection from the past 25 years with the Global
| Entrepreneurship Monitor of entrepreneurial activity, we found
| that infection prevalence was a consistent, positive predictor of
| entrepreneurial activity and intentions at the national scale,
| regardless of whether previously identified economic covariates
| were included.
|
| "The association of latent toxoplasmosis and level of serum
| testosterone in humans"
| (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5994116/)
|
| >Comparison of testosterone concentrations and control groups
| showed that testosterone concentration in study group was higher
| than that in control group with statistically significant
| difference.
|
| "Toxoplasma gondii infection enhances testicular steroidogenesis
| in rats"
| (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/mec.12042)
|
| >Testosterone, a testicular steroid, is known to reduce fear and
| enhance sexual attractiveness in males. Here, we show that
| Toxoplasma gondii infection enhances expression of genes involved
| in facilitating synthesis of testosterone, resulting in greater
| testicular testosterone production in male rats.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| 2 billion people already have the Toxoplasma gondii in their
| brains. If it were to affect humanity is some profound way, we
| would have already linked it to something more substantial than
| n=197 studies of correlating success in entrepreneurship to the
| virus.
| TheBigSalad wrote:
| Good point. We should stop studying it because we should have
| known by now.
| wpietri wrote:
| That's a pretty bold take from somebody who thinks it's a
| virus and not a single-celled parasite. But then as Charles
| Darwin said, "ignorance more frequently begets confidence
| than does knowledge."
| ajmurmann wrote:
| There are other studies that link Toxoplasmosis to increased
| risk taking. Here one on increased likelihood of getting into
| car accidents: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1
| 17239/#__ffn_s....
|
| It's widely known for many years now. Twenty years ago there
| was a huge report about it on German public radio. The
| article I looked references research from the seventies.
|
| It's been a strange philosophical point to me that catching a
| parasite that really wants to be in your cat can alter your
| personality and unless you are a pregnant woman the medical
| system ignores it.
| msrenee wrote:
| What's the medical system going to do about a parasite that
| often doesn't cause any symptoms that can pinpoint the
| particular pathogen? Most healthy people clear the
| infection without ever knowing anything happened.
|
| We don't have any way to undo whatever the parasite did
| while it was active. It's probably possible to create a
| vaccine, but the full impact in humans is still being
| explored and a vaccine for a pathogen that's been with us
| mostly unnoticed since cats have been with us isn't a high
| priority.
|
| I'd also say decades of research into the effects of T.
| gondii is explicitly not the medical system ignoring it.
| It's the medical system being aware of it, but there aren't
| any great solutions at this point.
|
| I'd also like to point out the difference between difficult
| to define risk-taking behavior in adults vs. miscarriage,
| blindness, neurological issues, and hydrocephalus among
| other risks to a fetus.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| I definitely don't have a clear answer here either. It's
| just a interesting thing to think about. It's very common
| and can change you or your loved ones personality.
| However, reviving it of course would also changed your
| personality. I've noticed recently that I've gotten much
| more risk-averse than I used to be and think it might be
| bad. Maybe I should get toxoplasmosis on purpose? Really
| creates a lot of questions about "self".
| msrenee wrote:
| If T. gondii has you questioning the existence of free
| will, you should (or maybe shouldn't) look into how your
| gut microbiota affect your mental processes. We're less
| individuals and more systems of millions of different
| critters.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Thanks! I've already down that and many similar rabbit
| holes and am entirely puzzled about self, sentients and
| existence :)
| enkid wrote:
| That's not how science works.
| jjallen wrote:
| This may very well be true. I wish you had posted more of a
| direct criticism of the study in question other than its
| small sample size.
|
| It may have had a similar control group and could be
| relevant. It could be that individuals with more of the
| parasite are more likely to become entrepreneurs still.
| eloff wrote:
| I can see the headlines now "you won't believe this one weird
| trick for bigger gains and better performance in bed".
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| What is the legal framework for a product that infects people
| with "beneficial" parasites ?
| gumby wrote:
| Ever seen "probiotics" for sale at the shops? Or live
| culture yoghurt?
| [deleted]
| hanniabu wrote:
| Just call it a supplement and you can do anything
| escapecharacter wrote:
| As long as it doesn't affect my essential fluids, I'm game
| brookst wrote:
| Just take it with pure rain water and you'll be fine.
| brohee wrote:
| Maybe read
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite_%28Grant_novel%29
| first...
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| In a world where people are supplementing with
| turkesterone... It's an arthropod moulting hormone-analogue.
| But it's an ecdy _steroid_. So surely its ergogenic.
|
| Sure, why not.
| rainmaker124 wrote:
| machina_ex_deus wrote:
| Imagine how dystopian that would sound in humans, like some
| science fiction horror.
|
| "All the leaders are secretly infected by parasites".
|
| Sounds like interesting sci fi movie premise.
| yesbut wrote:
| There is the idea that anyone that wants to be a leader
| probably shouldn't be a leader. These are the types of people
| who crave being in positions of authority over others. They'll
| step on anyone they need to in order to get the the top. They
| might be the leader, but they usually aren't necessarily the
| types of people that are looking out for the best interests of
| the people they lead.
| TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote:
| There's also the Dunning-Kruger Effect; Incompetent or dumb
| people don't recognize their own failings and assume they are
| geniuses. Smart and competent people know their own
| deficiencies and assume they're limited or dumb.
| Rallen89 wrote:
| so if you feel like you are limited/dumb are you actually
| smart or does realising that loop back to you actually
| really being dumb. seems like a catch 22
| wpietri wrote:
| With DK, the underlying model is that people only improve
| when they see their flaws. People who are very good at
| seeing their own flaws improve their performance, but
| tend to think they are doing worse than they are.
|
| In my view whether or not that makes you "smart" or
| "dumb" depends on what you do with the insight. As Ira
| Glass writes: "Nobody tells this to people who are
| beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do
| creative work, we get into it because we have good taste.
| But there is this gap. For the first couple years you
| make stuff, it's just not that good. It's trying to be
| good, it has potential, but it's not. But your taste, the
| thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And
| your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of
| people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people
| I know who do interesting, creative work went through
| years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special
| thing that we want it to have. We all go through this.
| And if you are just starting out or you are still in this
| phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important
| thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a
| deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It
| is only by going through a volume of work that you will
| close that gap, and your work will be as good as your
| ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this
| than anyone I've ever met. It's gonna take awhile. It's
| normal to take awhile. You've just gotta fight your way
| through."
| stncls wrote:
| I was once part of a department that was so well-managed and
| functional that I couldn't quite believe it. Then when time
| came choose a new department head, someone told me that they
| had always specifically avoided people who _wanted_ to lead
| the department for the job.
| yesbut wrote:
| Good policy. In worker owned enterprises that are run
| democratically the owner/employees elect their managers
| from the ranks. They act as manager for a term and then go
| back to their original position after the next election.
| Keeps everyone based in reality.
| bsenftner wrote:
| Decades ago, the Boston University Free Press (the
| alternative views newspaper) was managed in this manner.
| My buddy ended up running the paper for a year because he
| was the least political, most liked guy working at the
| place. He just wanted people to be happy. After a year,
| he was no longer happy and was glad to give up the job.
| yesbut wrote:
| Managers, like politicians, should have term limits. The
| temptation for abuse and favoritism is too strong.
| msrenee wrote:
| I agree with you for the most part, but what happens when
| you've got a damn good manager? They exist for sure.
| They're just unfortunately a minority.
| victor106 wrote:
| My simple mind thinks:-
|
| Why would you want someone who does not want to do a job do
| that job?
|
| If you are interviewing someone and that person said "I
| don't want to do this job" would you hire that person?
| salawat wrote:
| There's a difference between "I don't want to do this
| job", and "I don't want to do this job, but it needs to
| be done, and apparently everyone else thinks I'm the best
| fit for it. As much as I now hate you all, I'll do it,
| and may God have mercy on your souls."
|
| I've been told several times that I become scarily
| competent at anything I hate, far in excess of those
| things that make me happy or bring me joy.
|
| I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't discount disgust
| or aversion to something or it's lack as a
| disqualification to manage that thing. Quite to the
| contrary, they may be just the person aware enough of the
| thing in question to reliably manage it. I'll take a
| candidate who can explain at length why they hate that
| job over the most eager "this'll be great" candidate
| ever.
|
| I'll just be realistic about my assessment of their
| tenure, and the compensation offered, and try really hard
| to figure out what they actually want before pulling the
| trigger on the hire.
| Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote:
| "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President
| should on no account be allowed to do the job." - Douglas
| Adams
| beardyw wrote:
| A perfect model for democracy I would say.
| Jenk wrote:
| The flaw is that it forces someone into a role they do
| not want to fulfil, that could see the occupant become
| resentful of those around them and act out of spite.
|
| The short answer is there is no perfect model, people
| will always be people.
| soco wrote:
| I somehow expect that person wouldn't have become
| spiteful _just_ because of the election, so wouldn't get
| elected in the first place... but yeah, we only have bad
| or worse solutions.
| dasv wrote:
| An idea that goes back to Plato's republic.
| acuozzo wrote:
| > There is the idea that anyone that wants to be a leader
| probably shouldn't be a leader. These are the types of people
| who crave being in positions of authority over others.
|
| Which is why it's helpful to have as many (what I refer to
| as...) "power traps" in a society as possible: coaching,
| teaching, leading an HOA, leading a PTA, etc.
|
| I have nothing against these endeavors, you must understand,
| but my view is that a person spending time acting as a judge
| for a dog show is less likely to pursue becoming an actual
| judge.
| yesbut wrote:
| Solution: Put term limits on democratically elected Dog
| Show judges, as well as normal judges.
| [deleted]
| tomger wrote:
| I think that's the takeaway from the Lord of the Rings.
| [deleted]
| californiadreem wrote:
| "There's a secret cabal of beings that are making my life
| personally miserable" is already a common enough position that
| cyclically occurs in human history every hundred years or so
| that I don't think it's a fiction. I don't think it's an
| untenable premise to suspect that toxoplasmosis pandemics are
| cyclically-occuring in humans already and are responsible for
| revolutionary periods and/or imperialism.
|
| What people might find unpalatable is the idea that parasitic
| infection could determine so fundamentally political beliefs
| and ideology, but consider that the idea of not cleaning your
| hands directly led to disease was considered literal insanity
| (see the tragic history of Ignaz Semmelweis) prior to germ
| theory. Sometimes it's the smallest catalysts that cause the
| largest changes. For the want of a nail...
| hindsightbias wrote:
| "Cats began their unique relationship with humans 10,000 to
| 12,000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent, the geographic
| region where some of the earliest developments in human
| civilization occurred "
|
| Correlation or causation?
| treis wrote:
| Surely causation. Farmers store crops which attract rodents
| which attract felines. Wild cats that mind their manners do
| better in this environment. Eventually wild cats become the
| kitty cats we know today.
| wpietri wrote:
| I think they were suggesting that causality could run the
| other way.
| shkkmo wrote:
| That wild cats infected humans so that humans would
| develope agriculture that would attract rodents for the
| cats to eat? That hypothesis doesn't seem very
| plausible...
| wpietri wrote:
| That civilization bootstrapped due to brain chemistry
| changes via human/cat association.
| klipt wrote:
| This catspiracy goes all the way to the top!
| californiadreem wrote:
| The Article:
|
| > Wolves infected with a common parasite are more likely than
| uninfected animals to lead a pack, according to an analysis
| of more than 200 North American wolves1. _Infected animals
| are also more likely to leave their home packs and strike out
| on their own._
|
| From Wikipedia, Toxoplasmosis Gondii (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii ):
|
| > Although under-studied, penguin populations, especially
| those that share an environment with the human population,
| are at-risk due to parasite infections, mainly Toxoplasmosis
| gondii. The main subspecies of penguins found to be infected
| by T. gondii include wild Magellanic and Galapagos penguins,
| as well as blue and African penguins in captivity.[78] In one
| study, 57 (43.2%) of 132 serum samples of Magellanic penguins
| were found to have T. gondii. The island that the penguin is
| located, Magdalena Island, is known to have no cat
| populations, but a very frequent human population, indicating
| the possibility of transmission.
|
| From Werner Herzog's Encounters at the End of the Earth (
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kdDeGXUjI ):
| HERZOG: Dr. Ainley, is there such thing as insanity among
| penguins? I try to avoid the definition of insanity or
| derangement. I don't mean that a penguin might believe
| he or she is Lenin or Napoleon Bonaparte, but could they just
| go crazy because they've had enough of their colony?
| AINLEY: Well, I've never seen a penguin bashing its head
| against a rock. They do get disoriented. They end up
| in places they shouldn't be, a long way from the
| ocean. HERZOG: These penguins are all heading to
| the open water to the right. But one of them caught our
| eye, the one in the center. He would neither go towards
| the feeding grounds at the edge of the ice, nor return
| to the colony. Shortly afterwards, we saw him heading
| straight towards the mountains, some 70 kilometers
| away. Dr. Ainley explained that even if he caught him
| and brought him back to the colony, he would
| immediately head right back for the mountains. But why?
| One of these disoriented, or deranged, penguins showed up at
| the New Harbor diving camp, already some 80 kilometers
| away from where it should be. The rules for the
| humans are do not disturb or hold up the penguin. Stand still
| and let him go on his way. And here, he's heading off into
| the interior of the vast continent. With 5,
| 000 kilometers ahead of him, he's heading towards certain
| death.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > consider that the idea of not cleaning your hands directly
| led to disease was considered literal insanity (see the
| tragic history of Ignaz Semmelweis) prior to germ theory
|
| I was under the impression that it wasn't so much that people
| considered the idea insane, as that they hated Semmelweis and
| were therefore strenuously opposed to anything associated
| with him.
| lzooz wrote:
| They generally have something in common that makes them
| parasites. But it's sort of a sensitive issue now.
| _def wrote:
| It probably was sensitive forever - that's why it needs to
| change by speaking about it ;)
| trenchgun wrote:
| Well... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33742779
| yarg wrote:
| Animorphs.
| adastra22 wrote:
| Then whatever you do, don't google "toxoplasma gondii"
| nkzd wrote:
| There is an anime with a similar theme. Parasyte: The Maxim.
| throwaway71271 wrote:
| Well most of the leaders of the world today are psychopathic,
| so its not that far off.
| amarant wrote:
| Futurama made an episode kinda like this. But it's not so
| dystopic: if anything it kinda made me want to eat an egg salad
| sandwich from a vendomat in the bathroom of a truck stop!
| klenwell wrote:
| Glad you mentioned this. Not horror, comedy!
|
| _Listen, you! I was born here. I raised a cloud of children
| here. My ancestors came over here on the sandwich._
|
| One of my favorite episodes.
| wazoox wrote:
| People engaging in dangerous behaviour (fast-driving
| motorcycles, sky-diving and... entrepreneurship) are more prone
| to be infected with toxoplasma.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31980266/
| s3000 wrote:
| Culture can be seen as a symbiont for humans. Without
| infection, we are mere hunter-gatherers.
| the_af wrote:
| Culture is emergent behavior or a description of human
| behavior, it's not an external agent that becomes attached to
| humans, so the analogy really doesn't work.
| upsidesinclude wrote:
| Hint: check on synonyms for culture
| the_af wrote:
| Care to elaborate?
| sammalloy wrote:
| Culture is literally an external agent passed on by our
| family, friends, peers, institutions, companies, and
| organizations. It is and always has been a meme. The
| analogy is sound.
| the_af wrote:
| It's not an external agent, it's an emergent property of
| humankind. I don't find memes a compelling idea, but
| regardless, memes are not viruses and culture is neither
| a virus nor a virus-like external agent.
|
| So the analogy is very forced and doesn't really work.
| doodledo32 wrote:
| culture is the greatest egregore and the enemy of progress if
| not aligned properly
|
| edit: and as the one below me already alluded to, your
| statement exists on a physical substrate whilst culture
| exists abstractly thus invalid
| fatneckbeardz wrote:
| literally an episode of Star Trek TNG, episode title
| Conspiracy, season 1 episode 24
| yyyk wrote:
| >Sounds like interesting sci fi movie premise.
|
| Well, their field of work is called poly-ticks...
| mantas wrote:
| You don't need science finction. Just on following on some
| online communities:
|
| > :s/reptiloids/parasites/g
| tomjuggler wrote:
| With one third of humans infected it's more like the plot of an
| upcoming documentary..
| BlueTemplar wrote:
| Now I understand the purpose of trigger warnings...
| cruano wrote:
| > testosterone and dopamine production is increased
|
| Or advertisement
| winReInstall wrote:
| Syphillis makes you artistically brilliant, gondi makes you
| fearless, never felt so good, then just before exitus.
|
| So, in conclusion, if the vector has requirements, the infection
| will try to make the host capable of fullfilment.
|
| If the infection needs sugar, the mitochondria, will make the
| amobea crawl to algea.
| shubb wrote:
| Thank you for the final line, I never realised that
| winReInstall wrote:
| Its all just thesis, nothing is proven yet.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Obviously it doesn't always happen, a cold doesn't make you
| more sociable. On the other hand a cold virus that managed
| to pull that off through some freak mutation would easily
| outcompete all other variants.
|
| Mitochondria are a bit special in that it's mutually
| beneficial, but the same could be said about the above cold
| virus, if the other symptoms are mild enough.
| winReInstall wrote:
| Urge to travel with corona intensifies.
| arein3 wrote:
| If 30-50% of people have toxoplasma gondii, "gondi makes you
| fearless, never felt so good, then just before exitus" sounds
| like a exaggeration, because I doubt 50% are fearless, never
| felt so good.
| LightG wrote:
| The next crop of YC applicants should be interesting ...
| 988747 wrote:
| And I always thought that wolves live in families, not packs, and
| what it takes to be a "pack leader" is being the father of other
| wolves.
| sethammons wrote:
| I mentioned the article title to my high school animal
| enthusiast and that is the first thing they said; haven't
| researched it yet but it seems like these scientists would be
| "in the know."
| the_af wrote:
| I had the same thought. And also, the whole classification of
| "alpha male", "beta male" of the pack has been debunked, since
| there's no pack, just the wolves family. So the "betas" are
| actually the young adults of the family, and the "alphas" the
| father and mother.
| IngvarLynn wrote:
| Reminds me stories about school of fish following robot:
| https://newatlas.com/robofish-leeds-univiersity/15588/ or
| lobotomized fish (this looks more like anecdote than real
| research, i could not find the source).
|
| Perhaps it is impossible to distinguish stupid boldness from real
| vision without complex communication.
| 752963e64 wrote:
| Frummy wrote:
| Where can I buy infected cat feces?
|
| Maybe when aliens visit us they will say, no, step aside humans,
| we are here to talk to the true leaders of the planet. Bring out
| your microscopes.
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