[HN Gopher] Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years with...
___________________________________________________________________
Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting
down trees
Author : CHB0403085482
Score : 557 points
Date : 2022-11-23 05:03 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dsfantiquejewelry.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (dsfantiquejewelry.com)
| qikInNdOutReply wrote:
| The ancient japanese governments restricted the peasants from
| destroying the allmende. No hunting with weapons, only traps. No
| chopping down trees. Its the only way a society on a island with
| limitations can thrive.
|
| This is a hack to circumvent the no lumbering rule. As far as im
| aware, similar rules never were applied in europe, just all
| things chopped down, and then some state forrests and macchia.
| flanked-evergl wrote:
| > allmende
|
| Can't find this word in any English dictionary I checked, what
| does it mean?
| rastamutta wrote:
| It sounds a lot like "allmanning", which means common land
| (obviously)
| pgh wrote:
| It's German meaning "commons" - communal lands.
| [deleted]
| tpm wrote:
| Certainly no hunting with weapons (no anything with weapons
| really) did apply in feudal Europe; the nobles were allowed to
| carry and use a weapon while the peasants were not. As for the
| trees, that was managed by the feudal owner of the land.
| Usually some forests were cut down early (between ca. 500-1300
| AD) where arable land was under them, the rest was managed and
| used for construction and heating/cooking. Later many forests
| were completely cleared at the beginning of the industrial
| revolution to manufacture charcoal, used in many industrial
| processes. Some of them are now regrown.
| qikInNdOutReply wrote:
| Thats medieval northern europe, aka france, germany, england.
| The rest, the forrest was basically used up permanently
| during roman times.
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macchie
| tpm wrote:
| Also Ireland, Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, parts of Hungary,
| Romania, Ukraine at least that I know of. But you are
| right, I thought of the Roman times immediately after
| finishing my comment.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Oak forrests were very controlled in many European countries,
| for national security reasons. (Needed to make war ships.)
| m3kw9 wrote:
| I can produce wood too without cutting down trees
| amai wrote:
| See also this video and information from a german TV show:
| https://www.galileo.tv/natur/daisuigi-wie-in-japan-holz-gewo...
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Everyone here is mentioning coppicing, so I suspect there will be
| some interest in the Low Tech Magazine articles on the subject:
|
| https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/coppicing/
|
| And since we're talking about doing cool things with trees, I
| just wanted to mention that LTM has more interesting articles
| slightly "adjacent" to this topic, like this one about a half-
| forgotten technique for growing citrus trees in climates with
| freezing temperatures:
|
| https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-culti...
| smcl wrote:
| I really need to check that site out more often. Every time I
| see a link it's great - that second link you posted about the
| Soviet Union's techniques for growing citrus fruits well north
| of where they're normally grown is cool.
| inkcapmushroom wrote:
| FWIW you can replace the "www" in your links with "solar" to
| access LTM's solar-powered version of their website. It's off-
| grid and solar panel powered, so not available 365 days of the
| year, but I've yet to find it offline when I check. I think
| it's a neat project. :)
| laputan_machine wrote:
| It's a very cool project, and I really like the aesthetic of
| beige-ish background and reduced-bit, dithered images, almost
| feels like an old school magazine
| kriro wrote:
| Wow thanks a lot. I wasn't aware of this website. That's a
| place to spend hundreds of hours :)
|
| They even have printed books covering all their
| articles...those will make excellent x-mas gifts for some
| friends of mine.
| Jorengarenar wrote:
| >This is an ancient method, developed in the 14th century
|
| Isn't it interesting, how most of the history of East Asia just
| has label "ancient" slapped onto it in pop-culture?
| ThePadawan wrote:
| As a European who often reads material targeted at Americans, I
| would just assume that is what the author is doing here.
|
| The standards for "ancient" are simply relative to your own
| cultural history. A 200 year old building in the US is ancient
| - a 800 year old building in Germany is also ancient.
| Jorengarenar wrote:
| The use of word "ancient" you present here is correct only in
| very colloquial meaning; it's akin to calling your grandpa a
| dinosaur. Neither 200 years ago in USA nor 800 year ago in
| Germany are ancient times in proper meaning of this word.
| esperent wrote:
| In western pop culture you mean. I'm sure Japanese people have
| similar ways of referring to Western history.
| jacoblambda wrote:
| Japan went through a significant cultural upheaval during the
| Meiji restoration. So much of Japanese culture comes from the
| Meiji era up into the start of the Taisho era and as a result a
| lot of people treat everything prior to the Meiji restoration
| as "ancient times".
|
| Hell unlike most western culture, Japan didn't really get their
| current system for naming individuals and families until the
| 1870s.
|
| But as to why all these practices in Japan that date past the
| Meiji era are considered "ancient", one of the major parts of
| the restoration was the systematic centralisation of Japanese
| society and standardisation of practices. This resulted in a
| lot of practices being more or less outlawed with the surviving
| practices that weren't officially sanctioned by the central
| government surviving solely due to rebellious/non-compliant
| individuals secretly preserving their practices throughout the
| Meiji era.
|
| Into the late Taisho and early Showa era, the threats of
| violence from the central government were removed and the
| stigma around these "outlawed" practices faded, allowing
| families to publicly practice their "non-standardised" crafts.
|
| This is more or less the reason behind the seemingly endless
| quantity of "ancient crafts" and "secrets passed down through
| generations". There was a systematic attempt at eliminating
| non-conformant practices for a good ~40-60 years. That's at
| least a few generations who grew up fearing retribution for
| practicing their family traditions.
|
| There's also a whole orientalisation/fetishisation of Japanese
| things and concepts. The same applies to the broader east asian
| and greater asian cultures.
| lofatdairy wrote:
| > Hell unlike most western culture, Japan didn't really get
| their current system for naming individuals and families
| until the 1870s.
|
| Interestingly enough I think the Scandinavian countries moved
| from a patronymic system around the same time. My hunch is
| that this is due to globalization of the era and increased
| international/interimperial interactions.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| >>This is an ancient method, developed in the 14th century
|
| > Isn't it interesting, how most of the history of East Asia
| just has label "ancient" slapped onto it in pop-culture?
|
| At least in China, they freely refer to that time period as
| being "ancient" (Gu ). "Ancient" is probably any time up to the
| early 20th century.[1]
|
| If you want to emphasize that something is _really_ ancient,
| you can use Shang Gu .
|
| [1] I asked Baidu Shi Yao Shi Hou Suan Gu Dai ("what time
| counts as 'ancient'?"), and it turns out I was wrong. The
| answer is "before 1840".
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| > This is an ancient method, developed in the 14th century
|
| 14th century ancient? bah humbug! There's evidence of coppicing
| in the UK from about 6500 years ago.
|
| > The practice of coppicing can be traced back to Neolithic times
| (4500 BC). Neolithic wattle trackways in the Somerset Levels are
| evidence of sophisticated coppicing systems which produced rods
| of exactly the same size. Archaeological evidence shows that
| coppice products were used for numerous rural needs throughout
| the Bronze, Roman and Saxon periods
|
| https://www.conservationhandbooks.com/woodlands/a-brief-hist...
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Beavers in the wet meadow by my driveway coppice willows to
| produce large amounts of material on a sustainable basis.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
|
| I've not only seen the results but I've actually pulled the wood
| out of their dams by hand when I disassemble them to prevent them
| from flooding my driveway. It's not that hard to do so long as
| you keep the water level low. Once the water level gets high they
| get a lot more productive because they can easily float large
| amounts of wood.
| Obsnold wrote:
| Does the Japanese government pay for or in some way support
| articles like this? Do people in Japan get articles about how
| amazing coppicing is in the UK?
|
| Articles like this about Japan make me feel a bit weird but I
| kind of wish we were better at fetishising our own produce and
| practices like we do with the Japanese.
| macrolime wrote:
| Many popular Japanese things are actually Norwegian. Like
| salmon sushi and Kirin beer. I wonder how well known that's in
| Japan.
|
| Norway was looking for new salmon markets in the 90s and came
| up with the idea of salmon sushi
|
| https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501693/how-norwegian-sal...
|
| Kirin beer was started by a Norwegian brewer in 1869.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Copeland_(brewer)
| icelancer wrote:
| Oh, indeed - and sometimes worse:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome
| dimator wrote:
| > is a sense of extreme disappointment exhibited by some
| individuals when visiting Paris, who feel that the city was
| not what they had expected
|
| > The syndrome is characterized by a number of psychiatric
| symptoms such as acute delusional states, hallucinations,
| feelings of persecution ... derealization, depersonalization,
| anxiety, and also psychosomatic manifestations such as
| dizziness, tachycardia, sweating, and others, such as
| vomiting
|
| uhhh, what?? just from being disappointed in a place you're
| visiting? I had to double check the link to make sure it
| wasn't some satirical site.
| enneff wrote:
| I think it's just extreme culture shock. Some Japanese
| people, and likely the kind to follow a romanticised dream
| of visiting Paris, are very sheltered. If your first
| experience of a country other than Japan (a very ordered
| place with powerful social norms) is the actual Paris
| (where the environment is comparably a lot more chaotic and
| people are not exactly friendly) then I can see how you
| might lose your mind a bit with shock.
| Danieru wrote:
| What you need to understand is how Paris is horrible in the
| exact ways Japanese cities are nice.
|
| Paris is dirt, aggressive, expensive, with horrible
| customer service. All things Japanese city has and would
| never think to include in a tourism pitch.
|
| Japanese Tourists expect Paris to be a Regular (Japanese)
| City + Romanticism. What they get has no romance, and a
| city even regular French people consider rude.
| fredestine wrote:
| well its relative. for instance japanese parks are
| horrible. paris parks are a thing of beauty. the mayor is
| indeed contributing to make it a dirty agressive and
| expensive city by not fighting crime, mass tourism (she
| loves it. somehow she hates french people having cars but
| she is fine with rich tourists riding cabs in paris) and
| all the theft that is related to mass tourism... customer
| service is not at the level of japan but at least its not
| at the level of usa where everything is a transaction and
| every word is fake.
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| She? Come on, Paris has always been like that.
| Laaas wrote:
| Since when are Japanese parks horrible? There are a
| several good parks in/around Tokyo.
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| > "But some of them end up in tears, swearing they'll never
| come back."
|
| How I feel when my favorite bakery in Paris is out of _pain
| au chocolat_.
|
| I don't see it in the wiki article, but I wonder if this
| happens with other cities/locales? And surely this can't be
| something that only people from east asia feel?
| chooma wrote:
| fyi. Paris syndrome is heavily disputed among scientist,
| because the causality was never proven and the original
| author has 'vanished' from the scene.
|
| i.e. do mental people visit Paris or does Paris cause mental
| illness?
| lobochrome wrote:
| Solingen Kitchen Knifes are highly valued. Go into any
| department store, and you will find the finest selection of
| german knives. Of course - it is the other way around in
| Germany.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Huh? Solingen knives are quite popular here in Germany as
| well :P
| b800h wrote:
| GK Chesterton made similar points to you, but about religious
| orientalism, in "The Everlasting Man".
| astrange wrote:
| > Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing
| is in the UK?
|
| They might get confused since Copic is a popular brand of art
| marker there.
|
| I had to check but apparently the name is because they're
| designed to work with copier machines, not from this.
| (https://copic.jp/en/about/history/)
| thriftwy wrote:
| The answers are most likely "yes" and "yes".
|
| Except thay Japanese most likely read about London with its
| exchanges and culture and not about coppicing. Maybe some
| Scotland pastoral images, since it also sells hard liquor.
| suction wrote:
| Lio wrote:
| I see a lot of programme's about Japanese trades and crafts on
| NHK and that's owned by the Japanese government, so I would
| guess the answer is yes.
|
| I would also imagine our government, the UK, promote our
| culture via the BBC too. I believe it's called "soft power".
|
| I'm OK with it. I actually seek out these sorts of programmes
| on both NHK and the BBC 'cause I like seeing master craftsmen
| at work. Anytime I see some guy in London making clocks by hand
| with a Cowells lathe or a bloke and his son working a hammer in
| an Osaka forge I'm happy.
| qwery wrote:
| I'm not sure which other "articles like this" you are referring
| to, but I don't think you need to be too worried.
|
| Was this article was paid for by the Japanese government? I
| doubt it. The website appears to be that of a business that
| would like to sell you things, which seems a likely enough
| motive for them to post articles on just about anything.
|
| You might be interested in _Cool Japan_ [0], which is part of
| Japan's "overall brand strategy". This sort of national
| marketing is not unique to Japan, but their various campaigns
| are a noteworthy successful example.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Japan
| creakingstairs wrote:
| > Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing
| is in the UK?
|
| Not quite but there is a fair bit of interest in UK culture to
| a point where there are "England fairs" in department stores
| and malls time to time.
|
| That being said I'm also kinda sick of people using Japanese
| words instead of direct translation for some reason. Kaizen and
| Ikigai comes to mind.
| Obsnold wrote:
| I'd love to see some more information about these fairs if
| you have a link.
|
| My wife likes watching a lot of British YouTubers in Japan
| and it's made me want to see more about how the Japanese view
| British culture.
| creakingstairs wrote:
| I've just googled the department store near me and looks
| like they had a "Great British fair" last year.
|
| https://www.ukft.org/hankyu-great-british-fair-2021/
|
| Another fair ran by department store this year:
|
| https://www.mistore.jp/shopping/event/nihombashi_e/british_
| 5...
|
| I've never been to one so maybe looking up Japanese
| YouTubers might be your best shot for this topic.
| b800h wrote:
| > Kaizen and Ikigai comes to mind.
|
| I can understand that though - without the translation, the
| terms become more specific in English usage. Take Kaizen, or
| Continuous Improvement. Specifically using the Japanese term
| shows what sort of continuous improvement you're doing. I
| notice, however, that it's also apparently a trademark....
| creakingstairs wrote:
| > Specifically using the Japanese term shows what sort of
| continuous improvement you're doing.
|
| Yeah but I find it weird that the meaning of kaizen is now
| different in that specific lean or whatever context when
| kaizen just means improvement in Japanese.
|
| Come to think of it, There are many English words that
| Japanese people use that now mean something different, so I
| guess it's just how things are :p
|
| I think I'm just annoyed at these types of articles that
| puts Japanese words everywhere they can.
| shusaku wrote:
| I think this is actually search engine optimization by a
| jewelry company. Of course if the end result of gaming the
| system is interesting content like this, I can't complain.
| rbanffy wrote:
| Not saying this is not true, but... the rewards being on
| "interesting" rather than a faithful depiction of reality has
| given us things like the the Murdochs, Sinclair, and Fox
| News.
| cthalupa wrote:
| >Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing is
| in the UK?
|
| Yes. If not coppicing, than a million other things. It's also
| not any different than seeing romanticized articles about
| distilleries in Scotland or Iberico ham or a million other
| things that we see targeting Americans. The US being so
| relatively young doesn't get romanticized passed-down-through-
| history articles written in Europe, but they get plenty about
| modern American exports like Hollywood, etc.
|
| People like learning about things that are different and it's
| easy to draw eyes if you add a bit of mystique around a subject
| that people won't be particularly familiar with.
| tjpnz wrote:
| We get articles about all facets of western culture and
| practices in the Japanese press. As someone who was born in the
| UK I've often learned things about European culture which I
| didn't know before.
|
| Japan like the UK and US is a cultural superpower. When you're
| able to wield that much soft power no money ever needs to
| change hands.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| For a start, take better pictures. Compare the linked article
| with the Wikipedia article for coppicing
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
|
| In the Japanese photo, it looks like there are trees growing
| out of trees. In the UK, a dying bush is growing out of a
| stump.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| > daisugi only works with seedlings from a specific mutant cedar
| in a specific location in Kyoto
|
| Need more mutations!!
| esperent wrote:
| How much timber can be made this way (including similar methods
| like coppicing)?
|
| Is it enough to contribute a noticeable amount to the modern
| timber industry? Or is it more of a "huh that's cool"
| conversation topic?
| bstpierre wrote:
| My somewhat limited understanding is that coppicing or
| especially pollarding requires significantly more labor input.
| Modern timber harvesting is very highly industrialized. I have
| never seen any kind of machinery or industrial processes for
| managing a forest for coppice. I suspect that another factor
| may be density of a managed woodlot, but again I am not in the
| industry, just an owner of a small bit of "forest", so my
| perception may be off.
| RugnirViking wrote:
| its more useful for specific kinds of timber. If you want giant
| planks for building houses with, not that useful. We coppiced
| wood so it would grow a convenient size for chopping into
| firewood. Another large benefit is they tend to grow faily tall
| and straight, so are useful for things like stakes for fence
| posts.
| Scaevolus wrote:
| See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
| tomrod wrote:
| Always love reading about sustainability practices.
|
| Sidenote/tangent: why put a chat modal on a blog? I don't get it.
| It takes up valuable mobile real estate and I'm sure the desktop
| UX is not improved.
| [deleted]
| jasonmarks_ wrote:
| I couldn't help but think about how this is similar to the type
| of pruning/bending you apply in conjunction with trellis netting
| when growing cannabis if you want to maximize your top colas in a
| confined space.
| nindalf wrote:
| Dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33715565
| dang wrote:
| That one was later so we merged it hither.
| duped wrote:
| I wish there was a way to apply this technique to some of the
| rarer woods that have fantastic uses in production, like teak,
| rosewood, and grenadilla.
|
| If you're into hardwoods like musical instruments or fine
| furniture there's an appreciation you grow for the character of
| these woods. And a moral quandary with the sourcing of it. It
| seems impossible to find a sustainable method to source the
| material. A lot of what we make today will seem impossible in the
| coming decades.
|
| Grenadilla trees in particular are suffering due to over
| harvesting and poor oversight in the markets where it is sourced.
| It is prized for woodwind instruments - and the day is coming
| where it's only going to be economical to use recycled polymer
| composites (which have many benefits besides commercial) over
| true solid wood instruments. If we could sustainably turn these
| trees into fruit trees harvested over centuries it would be a
| great service to nature and the industry.
| rob74 wrote:
| This technique doesn't really offer a solution: as a rule, the
| harder and better quality the wood, the slower it grows, so the
| possibility to supply more when demand is high is limited,
| which makes the wood more expensive, so the temptation of
| "poaching" it is greater.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| The cedar shoots in this article are claimed to be stronger
| and to grow quicker though
| jimnotgym wrote:
| They probably mean 'stronger' in the sense of a beam, and
| stronger in the sense of stronger than the cedar that is
| not grown like that. This is probably due to the straight
| grain and lack of knots.
|
| That is not the property people need everywhere timber is
| used. Perhaps the finger board of a violin needs to be
| hard. The wooden bed of a scaffolding (and they are still
| wood in the uk) lorry needs to be tough and durable. An
| electric guitar body needs a certain density.
|
| Coppice poles are not good for any of these things.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Fair point (although I'm fairly confident that a straight
| grain and a lack of knots is very desirable for wooden
| instruments, so if this is true for coppicing in general
| (so regardless using mutant cedars) that seems like an
| avenue worth exploring)
| dktoao wrote:
| Electric instruments in general derive their sound mostly
| through the electronics. There are quite a few high end
| electric guitar companies (like PRS) that would like you
| to believe otherwise. If you are in the market for an
| electric instrument please don't have it made from rare,
| questionably sourced hardwoods!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Trees don't move; it's perfectly possible to guard them from
| poachers.
| duped wrote:
| With what army? The customs agents get bribed to stamp the
| lumber with official seals and it is sold to exporters with
| official documents so it can be shipped with plausible
| deniability. There's no incentive nor will to protect those
| trees.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| And when there is a will it tends to turn into something
| like the Earth Liberation Front. I can highly recommend
| the documentary "If A Tree Falls" on that subject - it
| also discusses the complex role of the national forestry
| agencies in regards to managing forests.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_Tree_Falls
| bell-cot wrote:
| Yes - but if you need trustworthy guards, 24 x 7 x 52 x
| $YearsUntilHarvest, then the economics of growing trees get
| vastly worse.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Perhaps you are in the forestry business, in which case,
| fine, but otherwise I would advise against speaking with
| the unearned confidence of a physicist looking at a
| different field and declaring it trivial[0]. Most of the
| time things aren't as simple/easy as they appear on the
| surface.
|
| [0] https://xkcd.com/793/
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Funny, but I do feel like there's not much you couldn't
| throw a team of programming physicists at, if not just
| for their widened perspective and the fact that they have
| such a good springboard to study anything else - wouldn't
| work if they had the attitude of the guy in the xkcd
| comic of course.
| ska wrote:
| The latter point is why you can often do well with
| physics dropouts (e.g. ABD ph.d students,disillusioned
| post-docs); good problem solving skills but less hubris.
|
| Of course physicists are not the only example of this
| effect.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| " it's perfectly possible to guard them from poachers"
|
| This is completely overlooking the sheer size of the earth
| and the sheer numbers of people/tech devices it would take
| to guard them from poachers.
|
| We can guard _some_ trees (and some animals) from poaching,
| but it really is beyond us to guard them all, even if they
| don 't move.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > This is completely overlooking the sheer size of the
| earth
|
| We're talking about farmed trees. They're already under
| active management.
| throwuwu wrote:
| It works with European and North American hardwoods so it could
| probably be applied to other species as well.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible, but nobody has
| successfully tried. It would require a combination of expert
| knowledge, the kind of long-term thinking/investment that the
| market currently is set up against, plus a lot of money over a
| long period of time to be able to afford experimenting like
| that in the first place.
|
| It will probably take state-sponsored forestry research to
| figure this out.
| throwuwu wrote:
| Or, you know, a retiree with a penchant for forestry and
| gardening. All it takes is interest, just look at the
| community of people obsessed with grafting or other botanical
| pursuits.
| henearkr wrote:
| This could be wrongly understood as "Japan wood industry doesn't
| cut down trees", which is false.
|
| Japanese forests are currently suffering an intense demand and
| are overexploited.
|
| A large part of the cuts are undeclared or under-declared, and
| clear cuts are not rare.
|
| Undeclared overexploitation of mountain top forests has been one
| of the determined causes of some catastrophic landslides a couple
| of years ago.
|
| @dang would it be possible to update the title in order to convey
| the meaning that it is one fabulous technique used in Japan,
| without letting believe that it is _the_ technique used in Japan?
| ekianjo wrote:
| Clickbait title. Japanese do cut trees. This technique is just
| used in very minor situations.
| bilekas wrote:
| Given I was asked for my location, popup permission and signup
| before I could even read the article, the title is the least of
| it's problems.
| socialismisok wrote:
| Similar to coppicing! Or maybe a regional specialization of
| coppicing?
|
| Trees are incredibly resilient organisms, and producing products
| like this from them is such a great lost art.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| > A similar technique is also used in other parts of the world,
| such as the UK, but under the name Coppice and Pollarding. While
| the technique is similar, it's not exactly the same, as daisugi
| only works with seedlings from a specific mutant cedar in a
| specific location in Kyoto.
|
| Dang, that's a shame.
| asplake wrote:
| It's the champagne of pollarding
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Unless your pollarded lumber came from a mutant cedar in a
| specific location in Kyoto, it's just sparkling timber.
| highwaylights wrote:
| I want this t-shirt.
| rob74 wrote:
| That phrase got me confused: there are several other "species"
| of cultivated plants that are actually clones of a single
| mutant plant, most famously the Cavendish banana. But
| "seedlings" suggests that this mutant cedar can pass on the
| mutation when reproduced from seeds, not only through cloning?
| Actually, I suspect that the main reason why this is not doable
| at scale is the amount of manual labor involved - cutting off
| the offshoots without damaging the tree below sounds like quite
| a challenge...
| forgotusername6 wrote:
| When I first drove past freshly coppiced woodland near me I was
| shocked. What had they done? They'd butchered the forest. All the
| trees reduced to less than a foot off the ground. They all grow
| back though and it doesn't take too long for the woods to return
| to what they looked like before.
| ggm wrote:
| Coppicing, Hedge laying, Bocage, drystone walling, wattle-and-
| daub are all domestic comparable ancient crafts of Europe. The
| point being that probably only drystone walling is valued in a
| way comparable to the Japanese version of Coppicing, which really
| has been transformed into an artform. European coppices are cut
| close to the rootstock and cut down far younger for use as poles,
| for wood turning, for hedge laying.
|
| Timber framed construction in Europe was nailless (wooden tree
| nails permitted) but the mortice and tenon joinery of Japan is in
| another league. Maybe European Gothic cathedral roofs come close,
| little else would.
|
| Japan modernised in the modern era, it's industrial revolution
| was comparatively recent and it remained feudal far longer than
| Europe (Russian serfdom aside)
|
| There are probably more continuous family heritage firms in Japan
| practising some art (brewing, soy sauce, woodwork, coppicing)
| than anywhere else. Can you name a European family concern doing
| the same thing continuously since before 1600? I can't name any
| Japanese ones but I wouldn't be surprised if there were many.
| Institutional enterprises like Oxford university press exist
| since deep time, but in Japan it would be a continuous lineage of
| printers continuing to use woodblock printing (maybe alongside
| hot type or photo typesetting)
|
| Farming does remain in the family but European farming practices
| have modernised since forever.
| caporaltito wrote:
| > There are probably more continuous family heritage firms in
| Japan practising some art (brewing, soy sauce, woodwork,
| coppicing) than anywhere else. Can you name a European family
| concern doing the same thing continuously since before 1600? I
| can't name any Japanese ones but I wouldn't be surprised if
| there were many. Institutional enterprises like Oxford
| university press exist since deep time, but in Japan it would
| be a continuous lineage of printers continuing to use woodblock
| printing (maybe alongside hot type or photo typesetting)
|
| That's a bit exagerated. There are a lot of fields in Europe
| which keep traditions since the Middle Ages. Sure, the
| difference is the amount of people doing it, but it is still
| there.
|
| Centuries old breweries in Germany, Czech Republic and Poland.
| Traditional tweed weaving in Scotland. Stone cutting and
| stained glass apprenticeship through "brotherhoods" in France.
| That is just on the top of my head. The only difference with
| Japan is that those markets have already shrunk to modern needs
| and those markets already went through centuries of heavy
| modernization. So one really traditional european company
| serves the market like tens would in Japan.
|
| But the traditional know how is still there.
| eliaspro wrote:
| > Can you name a European family concern doing the same thing
| continuously since before 1600?
|
| The oldest (family-held) one in Germany is "The Coatinc
| Company":
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coatinc_Company
|
| The oldest non-family owned one is "Staffelter Hof", in
| operation since 862:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffelter_Hof
| ggm wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies says
| by far the most (56%) are in Japan.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinise
| Retric wrote:
| Depending on how you draw the lines you end up with very
| different lists. Europe's classification of the oldest
| hotels generally means parts of the same physical building
| which would exclude most of the Japanese hotels as Japanese
| buildings get replaced far more frequently.
|
| The Japanese practice of adopting adults to continue a
| business also blurs the line here. Is selling off the
| business to someone else enough to maintain continuity? How
| about operating at the same location? What if the original
| structure is rebuilt?
| brigandish wrote:
| It's worth remembering that adoption is much different to how
| we'd conceive of it in Europe. If a business wasn't going to be
| continued by the offspring then a new business owner could be
| adopted, as an adult. That's why there seems to be so many
| Japanese concerns with incredibly long lineage, but like so
| much else in Japan to a westerner's eyes, it's appearance only.
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19505088
| rsynnott wrote:
| > but like so much else in Japan to a westerner's eyes, it's
| appearance only.
|
| Eh. I'm not sure I'd call it appearance only. In some parts
| of "the West" (notably the Roman Republic and early Empire,
| but it went on a for a long time after that) adult adoption
| as a succession/continuity-of-business mechanism was
| commonplace.
|
| Notable Roman examples include the _first two emperors_
| (Augustus/Octavian was adopted by Julius Caesar, Tiberius was
| adopted by Augustus. Tiberius also had both an adopted and
| natural son; given that the adopted one was adopted before
| the natural one was born, he was the heir, giving some
| indication of how seriously this was taken. (Ultimately they
| both died)
|
| Even in medieval and early modern Europe, legally adopting
| apprentices etc wasn't uncommon.
| brutusborn wrote:
| My memory was that the emperor adoptions were more
| pragmatic than anything, either because the emperor didn't
| have a son or as insurance against a power struggle caused
| by a single son dying. It's been a while so I could be
| mistaken.
|
| This is the same mechanism that business succession
| planning reduces risk. Failure to train and groom new
| talent for leadership roles is a good way to ensure a
| company dies with its current staff.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > My memory was that the emperor adoptions were more
| pragmatic than anything, either because the emperor
| didn't have a son or as insurance against a power
| struggle caused by a single son dying.
|
| Yeah, generally, but they're just the most famous
| examples (because emperor); this was standard behaviour
| for the time if you had something to pass on and didn't
| have kids. Adopting adult men was really commonplace in
| Roman society; Roman infant mortality was _astronomical_.
| The Japanese adoptions mentioned above were pragmatic,
| too.
|
| Arguably, it's unfortunate that the custom died out for
| European aristocracy (though it did continue to some
| extent for normal people). A _huge_ number of wars were
| caused by failure to produce an heir.
| neither_color wrote:
| We Americans have had "nepotism" drilled into our heads so
| much that we apply it to any small family-run business craft
| and encourage young people to move far away and try to "make
| it on their own" in cities they have no ties to in industries
| they don't belong in to avoid the shame of "having everything
| handed to you." Young Americans in general abhor the idea of
| doing the same thing their parents did. The problem is this
| is drilled into middle class kids who think that taking over
| the family shop/bakery/restaurant is the same as some
| politician or CEOs son getting easy admissions to harvard and
| a big 4 internship. The result is a wasted opportunity to
| build generational wealth, skill transfer, and artisanal
| mastery as your best decade is wasted trying to get to the
| same level your parents got to in 20.
| vkou wrote:
| The mom and pop shop only works when you have family
| members putting in all their time to keep it afloat for no
| pay.
|
| That's why the kids aren't interested in taking it over.
| It's not a route to generational wealth for anyone who has
| regular middle-class opportunities, as much as it's a route
| to being busy all the time, and having nothing to show for
| it at the end of the day.
|
| Businesses that actually have real prospects frequently get
| taken over by the kids. The family shop/bakery/restaurant
| is rarely one that has them. You don't want to be doing all
| the work in a line of business where the prevailing pay is
| minimum wage.
| ArcMex wrote:
| This was the first time reading about this, thanks for
| sharing. It's an alien concept to me so it was a fascinating
| read.
| Lio wrote:
| Instinctively I thought of the Whitechapel Bell Foundry[1] who
| made Big Ben and America's Liberty Bell but I'm not sure if
| they are still trading.
|
| EDIT: They are! (kinda) The London Bell Foundry are fighting to
| save the original site and keep it running[4].
|
| There's a few old surviving family businesses in the UK
| though[2].
|
| If you want really old and still operating I would look at the
| Livery Companies of the City of London. They're not family
| businesses obviously but the oldest, Worshipful Company of
| Mercers[3] got its royal charter in 1394 but existed for long
| before that. How long ago? No body knows for sure but at least
| 12th century.
|
| -
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitechapel_Bell_Foundry
|
| 2. https://realbusiness.co.uk/the-oldest-family-businesses-
| in-b...
|
| 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worshipful_Company_of_Mercers
|
| 4. https://www.thelondonbellfoundry.co.uk/
| kriro wrote:
| There's quite a few in Germany. The most famous one is probably
| Merck (1668). There's a couple of really old banks (Berenberg
| Bank in Hamburg, 1590) and the industry with the most old
| companies is probably the glas industry. There's a couple of
| companies from the 15xx and 16xx. If you're into hiking, you
| probably heard about Meindl shoes (1683). There's also a lot of
| breweries, especially small ones in Frankonia. And if you count
| wineries and restaurants there's some really old ones.
| Staffelter Hof is usually mentioned as the oldest one (862).
|
| Pretty sure it's the same in most European countries. My guess
| would be the oldest ones are located in Italy.
| hedgehog wrote:
| Wikipedia has a list (of course), it's pretty interesting to
| read:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
| hulahoof wrote:
| It's somewhat sad to read that after 1430 years being
| family run the oldest company on this list went into
| liquidation in 2006 and was acquired
| ajb wrote:
| Most of the oldest UK ones are pubs, which perhaps says
| something about British culture.
| hedgehog wrote:
| Or the durability of the value proposition and ability to
| keep a sufficient number of people interested in keeping
| the establishment open. Maybe something about the
| economics of commercial real estate and tax policy in
| England help survival during downturns.
| cschmidt wrote:
| The continuity of family companies in Japan also comes from
| the practice of adult adoption, when the family line
| doesn't have a suitable successor.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_adult_adoption
| kridsdale2 wrote:
| I read that this legal technique has also been used in
| Japan as a proxy for Gay Marriage.
| eloff wrote:
| A German friend phrased it this way for Americans: We have
| beers older than your country. The depth of history and
| culture in Europe never ceased to amaze me while I was
| travelling there, especially in Greece and Italy. I grew up
| on the prairies in Canada, there was pretty much nothing
| there 120 years ago.
| hfbff wrote:
| I don't know about your corner in Canada, but that "there
| was nothing here 150 years ago" is a dangerous lie told by
| people in many parts of the USA and Canada that minimized
| the indigenous people and occupied their land.
|
| Your part of Canada might truly be somewhere with no
| indigenous presence
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| Apparently, ancient Greek tourists vandalised pyramids in
| ancient Egypt. There also exist some text on walls with
| phrases one would expect to find in schools, it's just that
| it's in Ancient Greek.
|
| It's odd to think that not only time before you existed,
| but it was packed with people who had more or less the same
| issues and concerns as you do.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| They were ruling Egypt at the time as an upper caste
| boringg wrote:
| You should probably head to the cradles of civilization if
| you are looking for ancient civ.
|
| Pithy german comment sounds like your friend has a bit of
| an inferiority thing going on.
| dehrmann wrote:
| > A German friend phrased it this way for Americans: We
| have beers older than your country.
|
| To be fair, Anheuser-Busch is older than several iterations
| of Germany.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| We have citizens older than the Federal Republic of
| Germany.
| thechao wrote:
| The largest city in the "middle ages" was in the US.
| Europeans trot that "no history" story out because saying
| "... and then Europeans engaged in the largest genocide in
| human history" doesn't feel as good, I guess? There was
| definitely an interruption and a regime change -- Europe's
| got a lot more of those a lot more recently than the US --
| but the history is there, if you care to look.
| scythe wrote:
| The largest city in the Middle Ages was either Baghdad or
| Hangzhou, with neither European cities nor Tenochtitlan
| reaching half their size.
| eloff wrote:
| That's just factually incorrect. The largest pre-
| colonization city in the US was a piddling 20,000. Even
| Uruk in ancient Mesopatmia, was more than twice that size
| over 5000 years ago.
|
| Presumably you're referring to Tenochtitlan where Mexico
| City is today, which is neither in the US, nor was it
| larger than European cities at the time (although it was
| up there with Paris and Naples!)
| stryan wrote:
| > That's just factually incorrect. The largest pre-
| colonization city in the US was a piddling 20,000
|
| FYI, Cahokia was thought to have had a population up to
| 40,000 around the (IIRC) 11th century in Illinois.
| eloff wrote:
| That's the city I was referring to. The estimates I saw
| said 20k, so it depends what estimates you look at. It's
| still very small compared to other major cities of the
| time.
| [deleted]
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| For reference, Cahokia was roughly sited at present-day
| St. Louis.
| thechao wrote:
| EDIT: I can't modify this to narrow the assertion to "...
| the US had a city (Cahokia) larger than its European
| contemporaries..."
|
| Also, _all_ of the Americas gets historical short shrift
| from the old world: my point still stands: there was a
| concerted effort 500 years ago to exterminate the
| natives, and the results of that plan continues to this
| day when people say "X doesn't have any history".
| tremon wrote:
| So, on one hand you acknowledge the concerted effort to
| exterminate the natives, and on the other hand you appear
| more than ready to ascribe the credit for the largest
| city on that soil to the USA? Isn't that just a little
| bit callous?
| trgn wrote:
| At the same time, USA has the oldest constitution, and east
| coast cities for all intents and purposes are 250 years
| old. If Europe's imperial capitals are essentially 19th
| century inventions, so are America's (Paris, NYC,
| Barcelona, Philadelphia, ... all ballooned to their
| dominant feel during the same decades). The biggest
| difference is that the brand that the USA is not old or has
| little heritage, has been along for so long that Americans
| and Europeans alike have internalized it. But in 2022,
| America _is_ an old country, and does have a lineage that
| stretches way back, all the way to antiquity why not.
| relaxing wrote:
| Just because the US happened to be founded in the Age of
| Enlightenment that doesn't magically grant us heritage
| back to antiquity.
|
| And the argument isn't about the size of cities or
| political organization. But for reference, Philadelphia
| in 1790 had population 28k. That's on par with Paris
| around year 0 in the Roman era, or roughly year 1100 as
| the city recovered in the middle ages.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I always found these statements interesting. Heritage
| follows a cultural lineage that doesn't attach
| necessarily to political institutions. Much of Europe's
| political structure post dates the US. The heritage of
| the US is extraordinarily rich and inherits the heritage
| of the entire planet as cultures have immigrated and
| integrated. We have very clear direct heritages to
| England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, France, China, India,
| Japan, Russia, Greece, to name a few. Every American city
| has a "town" for these cultures. Are they not our
| heritage? How can they possibly not be?
|
| Japan has a very clear monoculture heritage for a very
| long time. But part of British heritage is Roman occupied
| England is it not? Germany shares a heritage with
| Prussia. Much of the world has some Mongolian heritage,
| don't they? You can see the influence not just in
| genetics but in art and culture. How is that not their
| heritage?
|
| If this is true, then perhaps the issue isn't that
| America has no heritage, but that it is so comprehensive
| that it's impossible to pin it down to something as
| distinct as a monoculture?
| leipert wrote:
| As a European it just seems weird that sometimes the
| heritage that is a few generations old is pulled out of
| thin air in order to give some meaning in the modern day.
| If your family migrated to the US in the 1800s, you ain't
| German, Irish or French no more. Yes, we have the same
| heritage, but the fork happened so long ago, that you
| cannot relate to the experience of something that
| happened later in Europe or elsewhere. Similarly how I
| cannot go to some German-heritage community in the US and
| relate to everything they lived through.
| Archelaos wrote:
| > Much of Europe's political structure post dates the US.
|
| I do not think that one can make such a claim
| objectively. There is a whole lot of prejudice hidden
| behind the word "much". Political structure simply cannot
| be quantified. There are elements that were earlier in
| the US. There are elements that were earlier in Europe.
| Some elements were earlier in Europe, but given up
| inbetween and readopted later. Some elements are unique
| to the US, some to Europe. Some elements have changed so
| much during their history that you may either claim that
| they represent a very old system or a very new one. (For
| the latter: Is present day Vatican the oldest political
| institution in Europe, because it can trace its origins
| to Antiquity, or is it one of the youngest, because it
| was formed with the help of Mussolini?) -- One needs to
| tell stories of origin, not impose inappropriate metrics.
| tomrod wrote:
| It's not American exceptionalism to show the similarities
| to Europe, simply a note of likeness. No need to be
| hostile to the notion of identifying intersecting
| attributes.
| relaxing wrote:
| We're talking about the length of history, there's no
| intersection.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| There are ancient indigenous civilizations that continue
| to this day in America, or do we deny their history is
| part of the history of America? The history of the
| political Germany is very short if we are talking about
| established political institutions.
| tomrod wrote:
| Clearly there is, from the industrial revolution forward.
|
| France tried to completely recreate itself several times
| during this period. By way of example, we no longer call
| it the Frankish lands nor the monarchy. Aggregate
| governance structures have changed tens of times, whereas
| the US really hasn't changed dramatically in the post
| Native American and post Revolution periods.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I think give the US is a collection of independent states
| the massive growth of states in the 1800's might count as
| another transformative period for the political
| institution, which has been relatively stable since the
| 1900's with 5 state governments being established (most
| front loaded the ~first decade).
| hattmall wrote:
| Would any of these have been the same people? Like is it
| conceivable the same family lineage in Paris 0-1100, or
| even 2k years to now or would the war, conquest, etc have
| changed the demographics considerably?
| relaxing wrote:
| Lineage in terms of common ancestor and shared DNA? Of
| course. It's pretty rare for invasions to result in the
| wholesale slaughter and replacement of a population.
| mrkstu wrote:
| Well, depends- it's actually fairly common in earlier
| ages. In the last thousand years or so a bit less, and
| last 100 basically not at all.
| hnhg wrote:
| I've spoken to people from some parts of the world where
| they have talked about a "recent" govt or king and then
| found out they were talking about 300 years ago, which
| was wild. Their collective sense of history goes back
| thousands of years. I would really recommend the chance
| to speak with people from Rome, Cairo, Damascus or
| Beijing (amongst many others, these are the first that
| come to mind) who love their local history, and you will
| get a sense of history that goes back a long way than a
| lot of people (myself included) can comprehend.
| bluGill wrote:
| There was a lot there 120 years ago. However the natives
| didn't have access to the types of materials that would
| last in that climate, and of course Europeans destroyed
| their culture.
| eloff wrote:
| I think we disagree on the definition of "a lot". Were
| there even any permanent settlements on the Canadian
| prairies? Most of the natives were nomadic.
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| The Prairies are there _because_ of the First Nations.
|
| Grasslands like Head-Smashed-In were maintained to
| attract buffalo, and timed to attract them in prime
| harvest season.
|
| Burning was done to improve productivity of berry
| patches, etc.
|
| It just doesn't match the European idea of agriculture /
| settlements.
| bluGill wrote:
| > Most of the natives were nomadic.
|
| Prior to the horse they were not nomadic, the prairies
| don't support a nomadic way of life without some animal
| you can ride, and the prairies didn't have one that can
| be tamed, so it is clear they were not nomads. The
| natives didn't have access to the types of building
| materials that would result in permanent structures,
| which means there is limited evidence for archeologists
| to work with, but there is enough about what life was
| like before the horse to know it wasn't nomadic.
|
| Once the horse came many became nomadic as the horse
| allowed a nomadic lifestyle that wasn't possible. It
| wasn't long after the horse those that Europeans wiped
| the natives out (small pox and the like also wipes out a
| lot of natives and their culture). There is reason to
| believe that if the Europeans had brought the horse and
| then left the nomadic way of life was on the verge of
| causing a collapse of the Bison population, which would
| have force major changes (most like a return to farming
| settlements, but massive starvation followed by some form
| of culture population control - or something else on
| these lines that you can think up)
|
| The switch to a nomadic way of life (which was directly
| caused by the arrival of Europeans) cause the loss of
| knowledge about the older ways of life. We have to make a
| lot of guesses, but if you know what to look for some
| things become clear.
|
| Note that we talk about natives as if they are one
| culture, but that is not true. There were many different
| cultures with different ways of life. Some adopted
| nomadic ways of life more than others. The horse allowed
| the nomads to out compete those who tried to retain the
| old ways, so those who didn't adopt the horse either died
| out (starved, assimilated) or had to move to areas that
| horse didn't do as well in.
| CMCDragonkai wrote:
| In that sense there's always a bigger fish. My Chinese last
| name is older than the idea of Germany.
| creaturemachine wrote:
| Europeans have no awareness of aboriginal history since
| they simply didn't have anything like it, so of course
| their version of history and culture is assumed to be the
| standard.
| markhahn wrote:
| surely you aren't saying that current euro cultures are
| "original". perhaps you're saying that previous cultures
| were more/more-often absorbed and incorporated?
| yonaguska wrote:
| I think the lack of awareness is more due to the lack of
| written records.
|
| I'm not so sure that I would say that there is no
| "awareness", and if there is a lack of awareness- it
| seems more likely that the lack of awareness is due to
| the fact that everyone is self centric, Europeans are
| going to be more aware of European history, in the same
| way that having grown up in a very specific region of the
| US, I am more well versed in the local native history
| than someone that wouldn't be. For instance, in
| elementary school, we went to visit native burial mounds
| and were educated on the local native history. All the
| native names for roads, towns, etc, they were local
| tribes that we learned about.
| tremon wrote:
| Which definition of "aboriginal" are you using here? If
| you're simply referring to the indigenous people of
| Australia, it seems a tautology that they didn't exist in
| Europe. And if you're using aboriginal as an umbrella
| term for all indigenous people, it seems foolish to me to
| think that there never were indigenous people in Europe.
|
| Also, you might want to look up the etymology of the word
| you're using:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborigines_(mythology)
|
| > The Aborigines in Roman mythology are the oldest
| inhabitants of central Italy, connected in legendary
| history with Aeneas, Latinus and Evander.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Espaliering fruit trees is popular even today. Obviously in
| this case people are just picking fruit off the water sprouts
| that shoot up each year rather than using the wood for other
| purposes, but the general idea is the same. The shoots just get
| trimmed back every year rather than every other year.
|
| E.g. if you look at this pic of a fig tree, you can see that it
| looks almost identical to the Japanese technique:
|
| https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/10/10/realestate/06gard...
| duped wrote:
| Thanks for the googling for rabbit holes.
|
| The joinery in traditional Japanese construction is remarkably
| impressive in its craftsmanship. I've heard it was born from a
| combination of expensive and poor quality iron for nails
| (although the same could be said in European construction -
| hence the phrase, "dead as a door nail") and the desire to be
| able to relocate Shinto shrines without damage (which required
| joints that could sustain serious loads without nails or glue).
| The ingenuity of design, and craftsmanship in their manufacture
| is something to behold. You can stare at a joint, chiseled by
| someone hundreds of years ago from fine hardwood and appreciate
| the care and expertise put into it.
|
| I wonder sometimes what we build that people look back on and
| will see the same quality of work.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I thought 'dead as a door nail' was a reference to dead
| nailing. Dead nailing being the bending over of the nail to
| lock it in place. Is this practice somehow related to poor
| quality nails?
|
| https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dead_as_a_doornail
| [deleted]
| pineaux wrote:
| For an excellent video about the use, history and
| ethymology of a dead door nails:
|
| https://youtu.be/1JOwfKLdRt8
| Danieru wrote:
| More important: earthquakes.
|
| Large ancient style Nails are a poor choice for a building
| which over the next 50 years is will experience a 100+
| earthquakes. Joined wood is a mechanical connection which
| would require a house to be disassembled from the top down.
| The wood would sooner rip than come loose.
|
| Edit: also joinery is not dead. Even modern Japanese houses
| have most of their connections a joinery. Then reinforced up
| with nails, cross braces (wood and now metal), and metal
| pins. Every dozen or so years Japan adds a new method for
| further earthquake proofing wooden homes.
|
| Stuff built now is expected to survive a Shindo 7 earthquake.
| Japan has only had 8 Shindo 7s in the past 100 years.
| bluGill wrote:
| Iron was expensive in Europe, before mass production a nail
| had to be made individually by hand which took a long time.
| Which is why until around 200 years ago nails were used only
| when nothing else would do.
| BucketsMcG wrote:
| After the Windsor Castle fire of 1992, they rebuilt the wooden
| roof of St. George's Hall without using a single nail, screw or
| drop of glue. They had a hard time finding people with the
| skills and knowledge to do it, as it's pretty much a dead art
| now.
| _tom_ wrote:
| Without cutting DOWN trees. I was trying to guess how they could
| grow square trees.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I'm sure people "molded" tree into squarer outer shape in the
| past.
| xg15 wrote:
| > _The other reason the technique was developed was fashion. In
| the 14th century, a linear, stylized form of architecture known
| as sukiya-zukuri was extremely popular_
|
| I'm also fascinated by how Japan apparently had it's own Bauhaus
| period, some 600 years before the west did.
| defrost wrote:
| It resurfaced again in 1998 [1]
|
| [1] https://www.discogs.com/release/1251099-Various-Satori-A-
| Tri...
| xg15 wrote:
| Oh, that's cool!
|
| I also found this bit [1]. So there really seems to be a
| connection between Sukiya-zukuri and Bauhaus:
|
| > _In 1954 Walter Gropius, founder of the Bauhaus visited
| Katsura Detached Palace and was so struck by it that in 1960
| he co-authored Katsura: Tradition and Creation Japanese
| Architecture with Kenzo Tange._
|
| (Though the book quote in the article seems to be about Zen
| gardens, which reads to me as maximally un-Bauhaus-like, so
| not sure if the style really was a direct inspiration for
| Bauhaus.)
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukiya-zukuri#Influence
| peteradio wrote:
| > Here and there in the forests around Kyoto you will find
| abandoned giant daisugi (they only produce lumber for 200-300
| years before being worn out), still alive, some with trunk
| diameters of over 15 meters.
|
| 15 meters?? Seriously??
| revskill wrote:
| Youtube video is bad, there's no video to see how things are
| really done.
| rossmohax wrote:
| I always thought that trees spend energy to grow higher, because
| they are fighting for the sun. Looking at the picture there seem
| to be enough sun for each sprout,why does it keep growing?
| adipginting wrote:
| Related https://us.eia.org/blog/japan-a-major-market-for-high-
| risk-t... .
|
| It seems like this ancient practice can not fulfil Japan's timber
| demand.
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