[HN Gopher] Woodworking through the mind of an engineer
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       Woodworking through the mind of an engineer
        
       Author : Ivoah
       Score  : 123 points
       Date   : 2022-11-22 18:11 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.cbc.ca)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.cbc.ca)
        
       | bergenty wrote:
       | I wish he bought a CNC machine because a lot of what he's doing
       | can be done so easily with a relatively cheap $1500 dollar
       | system.
        
         | cuu508 wrote:
         | Maybe he'll have a CNC machine one day. But it will likely be a
         | green, wooden, hand-built one!
        
           | sprior wrote:
           | He kinda did that (pantorouter, computerized box joint jig,
           | slot mortiser, 3d router pantograph).
        
           | foobarian wrote:
           | Very important to have wood gears as well! :-)
        
         | justapassenger wrote:
         | I downvoted you as it's a very bad attitude to have in any
         | hacker/tinker community.
        
           | JasonFruit wrote:
           | Well, yes and no. It's not hacker-good to dismiss others'
           | cool and interesting work by saying, "That's dumb; a machine
           | could do it easier." But it is hacker-good to see
           | inefficiencies that could be eliminated, even if it's an
           | exercise in missing the point here.
        
         | z9znz wrote:
         | The downside is that CNC woodworking videos are less
         | interesting. I know it's not "easy", but it looks too easy
         | compared to less automated methods.
         | 
         | Some of the most enjoyable videos I've watched are of people
         | using Japanese techniques and only traditional hand tools.
        
           | bergenty wrote:
           | There's enjoyable ASMR tier videos and there's useful videos
           | and I think Matthias falls strongly into the latter category.
           | Would love to see what he could come up with given the extra
           | capabilities.
        
         | postalrat wrote:
         | A lot of people aren't interested in programming a CNC machine
         | for their projects.
        
         | googlryas wrote:
         | That's like saying you wish Wout van Aert would just buy an
         | e-bike.
        
           | operatingthetan wrote:
           | If you are trying to suggest that CNC is 'easy mode' then
           | please educate yourself on the process and nuances of doing
           | CNC work.
        
         | lalalandland wrote:
         | Well, he can buy most of the stuff he makes. So he could just
         | make videos buying the stuff from Amazon... But that's not what
         | he does.
        
         | MichaelCollins wrote:
         | > _a relatively cheap $1500 dollar system_
         | 
         | Spending that much on tools doesn't seem like his style. He
         | makes his own tools using scrap wood and salvaged washing
         | machine motors.
        
         | speg wrote:
         | Recommendations for a decent, entry-level CNC?
        
           | bergenty wrote:
           | I can swear by the Onefinity (personally have the
           | journeyman). Solidly built, all ball screw rails (not
           | inaccurate belt feeds), great customer service, large work
           | area (32'x 48') and surprisingly affordable.
        
           | mauvehaus wrote:
           | If you don't already have experience, join a makerspace or
           | hackerspace. They'll likely have a far more capable and
           | reliable machine than you can get at the entry level. And a
           | community of people who can already tell you "don't bend your
           | arm that way". And handle the maintenance. Ideally they'll
           | have dust collection and some shared tooling that's in good
           | enough shape to get you off the ground.
           | 
           | Once you build some skill, you'll develop a pretty good idea
           | of what you want for your use case and where spending an
           | extra nickel or two makes sense or doesn't.
           | 
           | I'll also note that a huge hurdle for a lot of people is
           | grasping the differences between raster data, vector data,
           | and actual CAD data.
        
         | loloquwowndueo wrote:
         | Sure but then aren't you just glued to the computer doing 3D
         | design and letting the machine translate that to reality? Isn't
         | the point to build stuff with your hands?
        
           | operatingthetan wrote:
           | You need to know a lot about how to use a CNC such as tooling
           | selection, milling strategies, setup, work holding, etc. that
           | dramatically affect the result. It's not as simple as 3d
           | printing, but yes obviously it's more technical and less
           | 'analog.'
        
         | _jal wrote:
         | Sometimes I eat fast food. And thats fine.
         | 
         | Sometimes I'll spend hours making a meal. That's also fine, and
         | personally, I find it more rewarding.
         | 
         | I love my fancy tools - I have a couple mills and a lathe I've
         | converted to CnC, and also a sort of weird autorouter I put
         | together for wood, for a specific project. (Probably going to
         | recycle the parts, it was a good learning experience, but very
         | limited.)
         | 
         | I also love doing things from first principles, or at least
         | closer to that than letting the computer figure it out. It also
         | makes me better with CnC - just like most things automation-
         | related, doing it by hand illuminates a lot.
         | 
         | If you don't like watching his stuff, why not change the
         | channel? There are many, many great CnC operators making video,
         | too. No need to shit on things you don't seem to understand.
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | That would also fix the problem of having to edit & upload the
         | videos, because nobody would want to watch them anyway.
        
           | rzzzt wrote:
           | Can't the CNC machine edit its own videos?
        
       | z9znz wrote:
       | He makes interesting videos. And he says "mohse" many times,
       | which is always fun.
       | 
       | But one common fact of the most successful Youtubers is that they
       | have been putting out content fairly consistently for years.
       | 
       | There definitely seems to be something about time and consistency
       | in the equation of success.
        
         | MatthiasWandel wrote:
         | The time part is very important -- it's important to start 15
         | years ago when the field was less crowded, and then develop
         | your skill as you go along.
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | > And he says "mohse" many times
         | 
         | Are you talking about the word _mouse_? I don 't hear anything
         | unusual about his pronunciation.
        
           | ents wrote:
           | He says "mouse" exactly the way you'd expect a Canadian to
           | say it.
        
             | z9znz wrote:
             | I'm used to hearing tall Os from Canadians, but I guess
             | this was the first time I've ever heard a Canadian talk
             | about a mouse. If I hadn't first seen the creature, it
             | would have taken some time for me to realize what he was
             | talking about :).
        
           | rzzzt wrote:
           | Mortices, maybe? Also tenons, with a custom jig.
        
       | myth_drannon wrote:
       | About 17 years ago I was an intern at RIM/Blackberry and even
       | then Matthias was a legend in the company, built the
       | communication/foundation layer for the device.
        
         | speg wrote:
         | Whoa - I was also a coop student around that time (2007) but I
         | never knew about the RIM connection until now.
        
           | MatthiasWandel wrote:
           | I left the company in 2007
        
             | imglorp wrote:
             | Thanks for all the great content!
             | 
             | I would be interested in a more meta piece about how you
             | approach problems and how you regularly achieve that 100x
             | thing.
        
         | memish wrote:
         | Matthias is a good example of a 100x engineer. He's insanely
         | productive.
        
       | isbjorn16 wrote:
       | Woodworking has probably been one of the most important things to
       | add during my career. I went from being and feeling like I knew
       | how to do most everything to being forced into confronting the
       | fact that just because I'm experienced, I don't know everything.
       | I make _so many_ fucking mistakes when I 'm woodworking that,
       | when people ask about what I make in my woodshop, I just respond
       | "sawdust and mistakes, mostly".
       | 
       | I'm not comfortable not knowing what to do; I've been building on
       | a really stellar foundation for so long that when I need to do
       | something outside of that universe - not situated over that
       | foundation - I tend to flounder, get frustrated, and feel like
       | the dumbest man alive.
       | 
       | Woodworking made me confront the fact that while I may be really
       | good at building scalable systems and high quality code, that
       | doesn't mean I'm the master at everything, and I'm *going* to
       | find things I need to stretch to learn. It's made me get
       | comfortable with making mistakes again (well, as comfortable as I
       | can be, I reckon). It's also made me comfortable with realizing
       | when I'm hitting my patience limit and walking away instead of
       | banging my head against the wall for hours. A bit of distance,
       | let my subconscious chew on it for a while, and revisit it later,
       | rather than just trying to put my head down and shove my way
       | through.
       | 
       | Long story short, you should all pick up woodworking, or metal
       | working, or throw some pottery or paint or something. Get
       | comfortable with being a rank amateur fuckup and revel in the
       | process of _learning_ instead of _fabricating_ without a hitch. I
       | know that I, for one, really needed it.
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | > that doesn't mean I'm the master at everything
         | 
         | And then you see someone who _is_ the master at everything in
         | construction.[1]
         | 
         | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKYFdwWx2QU
        
           | juhanima wrote:
           | The way she goes about it, using power tools without goggles
           | and gloves is just horrifying. It's a lovely concept, showing
           | what can be done with the materials and tools available. But
           | I wouldn't recommend such a cavalier approach to anyone in
           | real life. This seems very staged to me anyway, with the
           | result not matching to the process shown. Also the structural
           | integrity and endurance of those constructs seems a bit
           | questionable.
        
         | gjvc wrote:
         | _Long story short, you should all pick up woodworking, or metal
         | working, or throw some pottery or paint or something. Get
         | comfortable with being a rank amateur fuckup and revel in the
         | process of learning instead of fabricating without a hitch. I
         | know that I, for one, really needed it._
         | 
         | Learning a trade, even if it doesn't become a profession is
         | something which is very under-rated.
        
         | mytdi wrote:
         | >"sawdust and mistakes, mostly" Love that phrase. Will share it
         | with my father who has a woodshop. Also agree with your
         | thoughts about woodworking.
         | 
         | I also started doing some wood work, I got myself a desktop CNC
         | and some other basic woodworking tools.
        
           | isbjorn16 wrote:
           | my other pithy statement that I stand behind is my poorly
           | routed sign that says "Glasses and Mask, Jackass" and sits
           | right in front of the door entry to my workshop.
           | 
           | haste makes waste, but even worse, it can make for blind
           | people with breathing problems
        
       | MichaelCollins wrote:
       | I love his videos about making his own bandsaws, belt sanders,
       | etc. I've heard/read of people doing this sort of thing, but his
       | videos documenting the process are really fascinating.
       | 
       | Also his website is well worth a peruse: https://woodgears.ca/
        
         | bgilroy26 wrote:
         | In 2008 or 9, I was an underdiagnosed college student with
         | intersecting mental health challenges who had trouble getting
         | out of his room
         | 
         | Something about the geometric java games where you would click
         | your mouse very precisely made them a great primary
         | intermediate step activity-wise to building the self-esteem I
         | needed to get out of my room and get help. I will always be
         | very grateful.
        
       | mwattsun wrote:
       | I have a buddy who retired around the same time I did who turned
       | his hobby into a retirement project on YouTube. Like Matthias, he
       | also worked on low level code for devices (Philippe Kahn's
       | Fullpower.) In this regard I think YouTube is great for providing
       | retired people a good way to share the knowledge they've
       | accumulated over a life time and make a little money in the
       | process.
       | 
       | Ward's electrical and electronic repair
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/@WardCo
        
       | abraxas wrote:
       | Well, that's not a very round number in any counting base I can
       | think of...
        
         | MatthiasWandel wrote:
         | Why, its nearly the square root of 3.
        
         | soperj wrote:
         | My assumption is that they rounded it: 1,720,440 in base 8 is
         | exactly 1/2 a million in base 10. Clearly this is what they
         | were trying to convey.
        
       | cwkoss wrote:
       | Wandel is really cool. Highly recommend his woodworking channel.
       | Some of my favorite things he's made cluster around making high
       | precision things with tools that are usually easy to use
       | imprecisely.
       | 
       | Copy Carver - kind of a manually run 3D CNC, lets the user
       | 'trace' in 3 dimensions:
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyNu8lpQI1g
       | 
       | Pantorouter - build an oversized template, then end-cut a piece
       | in a way that scales down that template (effectively multiplying
       | precision of the template to achieve precision you wouldn't be
       | able to get otherwise)
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_72hOY2vPg
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUJzuM3PRAI
        
         | TacticalCoder wrote:
         | These are amazing. I could swear I've seen some of an
         | horizontaly, not vertically, mounted pantorouter.
         | 
         | Since discovering the pantorouter for woodworking I always
         | wondered: wouldn't the same technology make sense for ultra
         | precise 3D printing at home? Instead of having the motors drive
         | directly on top of the model, have the motors drive a
         | pantorouter instead and have the smaller end of the pantorouter
         | on top of the model. It's "just" simple machines right, lever
         | and axle basically?
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine
         | 
         | All I could find is people 3D printing parts to make a
         | pantorouter for wood. But I'd really love to see one for finer
         | 3D prints.
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | Linkages lose you rigidity. Bad in machine tools.
        
           | foobarian wrote:
           | I would think that play would be difficult to keep low enough
           | to make this worthwhile. A servo driven hot end is already
           | pretty precise, so a pantograph-like transfer would have to
           | be rigid and tight enough to beat that. No small feat.
        
         | netsharc wrote:
         | He also made a pantograph out of LEGO.. for chocolate!
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2FY0xLwAcw
        
           | cwkoss wrote:
           | Great vid, I had missed that one. Cutting chocolate on the
           | bandsaw cracked me up, classic Matthias
        
       | powersnail wrote:
       | My biggest regret about college is not taking that workshop
       | training lab that the Architecture department offered, which was
       | open for any student to join, for free. With a lot of free scraps
       | that can be practiced on. It would have been a great experience.
       | 
       | Now, wood working courses around me cost a thousand bucks, are at
       | least 10 miles away, and are completely full. They only train for
       | power tools, which I don't have the space for at home.
        
       | dmtroyer wrote:
       | He must love video editing. Surely he could afford to hire a few
       | video editors with this many subscribers if he wanted to focus
       | more on woodworking.
        
       | croo wrote:
       | I'm following him on and off for years. He's the most engineer
       | minded woodworker I met on youtube and what stands out for me is
       | the precision he does his stuff. Most other woodworker goes by
       | gut feeling or well established tricks or jigs to make stuff
       | easier. This guy goes by raw precision.
       | 
       | I don't know how but he manages to cut stuff by the hair of a
       | millimeter on purpose.
        
         | foobarian wrote:
         | I've enjoyed reading/watching his posts as well, most recently
         | for garage storage as I just moved into an empty one. What I
         | found refreshing is that he is not snobbish about materials and
         | has no qualms about using 2x4 pine or old pallets, as long as
         | they accomplish the job in a desired way with suitable margins.
         | Very engineer-like indeed :-)
         | 
         | As a result I was inspired to calculate out forces/stresses for
         | a 1x2 pine structure, driven by the crazy lumber price
         | inflation, and now have a 1x2 scrap wood rack, a 1x2 free-
         | standing shelf, a 1x2 wall-attached shelves...
        
       | sbf501 wrote:
       | Engineers like woodworking because they spend so much time often
       | building intangible things (like software engineers), that it
       | satisfies an unmet need to hold, feel, or experience their
       | creations in a tactile way.
       | 
       | Thus said a therapist I had ages ago.
        
         | sprior wrote:
         | At one point as a programmer at IBM, me, my manager and his
         | manager were all woodworkers. Same explanation you gave.
        
         | peter422 wrote:
         | Another key difference is that software is never finished, you
         | can always fix a bug or add a feature or tinker with it.
         | 
         | When you build a piece of furniture for yourself or especially
         | somebody else, when you finish it, it's done. All the little
         | mistakes and imperfections are just part of it, and there is
         | nothing you can do about it. Just accept and be proud of it and
         | move on to the next project. It seems odd but it's a very nice
         | feeling for somebody who mostly deals in abstract, perpetually
         | updating software.
        
           | sbf501 wrote:
           | > Just accept and be proud of it and move on to the next
           | project.
           | 
           | It is nigh impossible for me to treat one of my github repos
           | like this!
        
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