[HN Gopher] A new wave of electric vehicles
___________________________________________________________________
A new wave of electric vehicles
Author : tjkau
Score : 45 points
Date : 2022-11-20 20:34 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.whichcar.com.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.whichcar.com.au)
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| This is an ad.
| dagmx wrote:
| An ad for whom? It highlights every brand listed equally.
| uJustsaidit wrote:
| dagmx wrote:
| Honestly, the biggest thing going for Tesla's right now is their
| charging network. The ratio of supercharger to CCS chargers in
| most of North America is still unfortunately biased towards
| Tesla.
|
| When we drove up the West Coast, it was a 5:1 ratio in many
| places.
|
| This will likely change soon as CCS cars overtake Tesla and I'd
| be curious how things would fare then.
|
| FSD is potentially another differentiator, but in my experience
| with our own MY, Tesla is way worse at the basics of autonomous
| driving than other brands but better at the advanced stuff that
| nobody else is rolling out likely due to liability. I expect many
| of those other brands could have similar autonomous capabilities
| licensed from vendors like NVIDIA.
|
| The new Volvo EX90 is a really interesting vehicle in this
| regard. Where Tesla says sensor fusion is difficult, Volvo are
| revelling in more sensors and more kinds of them.
| [deleted]
| fossuser wrote:
| The chargers and the heads up display/software nav independent
| of FSD place them far ahead of anyone else. People complain a
| lot on HN about the touchscreen but it's really good and most
| car systems are really bad.
|
| That and their range/performance per dollar is really
| competitive. They're dominating the space for a reason imo.
|
| The other car companies ignored EVs for a decade and are still
| hamstrung by dealerships in the US (which are really awful). I
| don't expect them to be much of a threat.
| amluto wrote:
| The software and nav? Really? Actually operating the non-
| driving features of a Tesla is an exercise in every-changing
| frustration. Want to see if your seat heater is on? It used
| to be on the screen all the time, but now it's buried. Want
| to find a radio station or streaming station? It moves around
| on a regular basis and always takes several taps.
|
| At least the nav is decent these days. It used to be
| comically poor. Although the "heads up display" is
| essentially absent on the 3 and Y.
| fossuser wrote:
| You can have the seat heaters back on the screen again.
| buffet_overflow wrote:
| The concern for me is, the user interface can wildly change
| again because some PM somewhere needs a raise and a bonus.
| I don't like the idea of not having a say in things like
| the heater functionality being arbitrarily buried, and I
| find out on some random weekday morning that everything is
| different.
|
| This is the opinion of someone that doesn't own a Tesla and
| hasn't had this happen to them, can anyone weigh in on this
| from experience?
| fossuser wrote:
| I have a Model 3, previously had a Fiat 500e, VW GTI, and
| Saturn. I've driven other high end cars and their systems
| are way harder to use imo. It's worth just trying
| yourself vs. listening to people on HN.
|
| Most people don't bother with their in car nav and just
| use their phone. I've heard apple car play isn't bad
| though.
|
| The Model 3 did have an update that made things worse for
| a bit, but they fixed it. Since I've owned it (2018) it's
| much better than it was when I bought it because of
| updates.
| bluGill wrote:
| I don't know why anyone bothers with in car nav. Who
| doesn't have a smart phone with up to the second maps on
| their person? (Hint the type of person who can't program
| the in car navigation). Sure I could get my car updated,
| but it isn't worth it, the maps are obsolete before the
| programming is done.
| fossuser wrote:
| The Tesla one is better than using your phone - which is
| a high bar (and kind of the point I'm trying to make).
|
| The display is big, the maps are google maps, it has
| traffic routing, it can route you via super chargers,
| etc.
| dagmx wrote:
| However the Tesla one is not better than using your
| phone+CarPlay which is the real comparison point for many
| people.
|
| Both CarPlay and android auto are miles ahead of where
| Tesla is, but as a result the comparison becomes murky.
|
| Do you compare vanilla car to vanilla car? Or do you
| consider the actual use case or capability for most
| people?
|
| If you believe Apple's own marketing, the existence of
| CarPlay is a massively considered factor for the purchase
| of new cars.
| dagmx wrote:
| It definitely is frustrating as a Tesla owner. The latest
| UI redesign is a mess for usability while driving.
|
| The navigation area is smaller to show more visualization
| area, many things that were one click away are now two to
| four clicks away, and there's less information available.
|
| Granted they've slowly started bringing back stuff from
| the old UI, but there's many things that make it seem
| like the designers are designing at their desk and not
| dog folding their work.
|
| Take the new video feed when you turn. great feature that
| finally showed up on Tesla (been on many other cars for a
| while) but the initial implementation put it in your
| blind spot behind your arm. The only way I can see that
| happening is if the features were signed off of
| independently of testing the design on the road or in a
| realistic simulator. It's now in a better spot after much
| feedback from customers.
|
| The same can be said for many of the other car settings.
| They finally moved many of the one click actions back,
| but how did there come to be a giant release that reduced
| much used functionality unless you weren't testing in the
| field?
| dagmx wrote:
| No Tesla has a HUD.
|
| The rest of your comment is subjective IMHO. Granted Tesla
| have the most responsive in-car system, I know many people
| who refuse to buy one if a comparable car with an actual
| instrument cluster and any form of physical buttons exist.
|
| Especially with CarPlay and Android Auto in the mix, many
| cars offer better experiences than Tesla when coupled with a
| phone.
|
| Tesla's UI isn't what makes them dominate the market, it's
| their price and first mover advantage. They dominate the
| market in spite of their UI , not because of it.
| 7e wrote:
| Teslas have an HRD--a Heads Right Display.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _the heads up display_
|
| Teslas don't have a heads up display. Heads up displays are
| projected on to the windscreen. They make use of augmented
| reality features these days:
|
| - Volkswagen ID EVs:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQT5pRs0yCQ
|
| - Audi Q4 e-tron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ7axYz27DE
|
| - Mercedes S-class:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk-0TjxFkZQ
| fossuser wrote:
| Yes, my bad - I just meant the screen, whatever you want to
| call that.
| bratao wrote:
| Thank you, I loved the EX90. Looks better than the Tesla in all
| aspects.
| izzydata wrote:
| Are the more mainstream car companies just waiting for other
| companies to make all the mistakes before heavily pushing EVs?
| Honestly I don't think I'd make the switch to an EV before a well
| established car company makes one that looks good to me. Tesla
| seems like a death trap of poor software and bad manufacturing
| that I wouldn't trust my life with.
| dagmx wrote:
| Most/all of the mainstream brands do have EVs already available
| or coming soon. A lot of them have gotten over the weird EV
| stylings of yore and made very approachable designs.
|
| Ford: F150 and Mustang Mach-e
|
| BMW has several
|
| Mercedes has several in the EQ range
|
| Toyota has finally gotten on the bandwagon as does Lexus.
|
| VW has EVs for VW, Audi and Porsche.
|
| GM and Chevy have a few models lined up.
|
| Hyundai and Kia both have multiple EVs.
|
| I'm sure I've missed a brand but I'd be curious which brand
| you're waiting for?
| yesimahuman wrote:
| I am in market for an EV and tried the Model Y and the Audi
| E-tron and the difference is massive. The Audi is so much
| nicer and only slightly more expensive. It was an easy
| decision with the new Q8 coming now which passes my "more
| than enough range" threshold
| cokeandpepsi wrote:
| I don't think so there's some really nice options like the bolt
| out there, the biggest issues with adoption is probably
| customers needing reassurance regarding things like charging
| network coverage which will charge over time
|
| I'd be willing to be that in 10 or so years most new cars sold
| to consumers will be EVs from the 'mainstream' automakers
| soared wrote:
| Many mainstream brands have EVs now, does has done the most imo
| having their iconic f150 and mustang go full ev.
|
| Ford has f150 and mustang EVs, bmw and Mercedes have multiple
| lines, toyota has lines coming up, Honda/dodge/etc have cars
| coming out in 2023.
| conk wrote:
| Other than Toyota and Dodge, what mainstream car maker isn't
| offering an EV today? You have Ford, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, BMW,
| GM, VW, Porsche all with EV offerings.
| dagmx wrote:
| Dodge have an EV coming
| https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/17/business/dodge-electric-
| muscl...
|
| Toyota have a couple if you include Lexus
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Toyota now is with the bz4x. Honda, Mazda, Subaru, and
| Chrysler are not.
| dagmx wrote:
| Subaru have one based on the bz4x.
|
| Honda have a more mass market EV in the works but do have
| an EV in Japan already.
|
| Mazda have the MX-30
|
| Chrysler have one in the works
| https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/14/chrysler-
| reveals-400-mile-...
| rafiki6 wrote:
| Generally speaking no company will willingly canabalize it's
| current product line for an unproven and premature technology
| in a new product line.
|
| That's also usually how companies get displaced. I'm not sure
| we'll be driving any cars from established manufacturers if EVs
| gain wide adoption and reach a price level that's affordable to
| the average person.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > Generally speaking no company will willingly cannibalize
| it's current product line for an unproven and premature
| technology in a new product line.
|
| I imagine the deadlines European countries have put on ICE
| sales might change that attitude in this case.
| csa wrote:
| > Tesla seems like a death trap of poor software and bad
| manufacturing that I wouldn't trust my life with.
|
| Don't believe the hype.
|
| Teslas get very high safety ratings from IIHS and NHTSA.
|
| Any sort of failures (frequently corner cases or user-induced)
| get heavily reported due to Tesla in the title being click
| bait.
|
| I recommend taking a test drive if you have any doubts. Teslas
| are quite good cars.
|
| Are they as good as or better than other cars in the same price
| range? That's debatable, especially with the S and X.
|
| The biggest reasonable complaint that I have is that some
| features are inappropriately labeled. FSD is good, but it over
| promises by a lot. Auto Pilot is more like advanced cruise
| control -- and it's good at it -- but it's not a set it and
| forget it feature.
| massysett wrote:
| This company has "full self driving" and thinks it's a good
| idea to require touchscreen interaction for nearly
| everything. Safety clearly is not its primary concern. I
| would give them a little more credit if they didn't use the
| ridiculously misleading name of "autopilot" for something
| that will readily steer the car straight into danger.
| csa wrote:
| > thinks it's a good idea to require touchscreen
| interaction for nearly everything
|
| I use voice control for almost everything that I adjusted
| with physical controls on my previous car.
|
| If voice control isn't your jam, then I humbly suggest that
| the screen is very easy and fast to use once you get
| accustomed to the different UI. There definitely is an
| adjustment period, but it's not long, imho.
|
| > would give them a little more credit if they didn't use
| the ridiculously misleading name of "autopilot"
|
| I think we agree that it is inappropriately named. That
| doesn't mean it doesn't do some things extremely well (it
| does).
|
| > for something that will readily steer the car straight
| into danger
|
| This has happened to me approximately never, and I use AP a
| lot.
|
| It will turn off if it can't see the lines, which is why I
| think it is grossly misnamed, but that's why you are
| supposed to be ready to resume control at any moment. This
| is what the user manual tells you to do.
| bluGill wrote:
| Voice control isn't my thing. Touchscreen is not
| accepable as a substitute, I need buttons where I can
| feel that i'm hitting the right one without taking my
| eyes off the road.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| I don't understand why light pickup trucks and small vans aren't
| featured in this review, and don't seem to be a major target of
| EV manufacturers? There are a few in the pipeline, such as VW's
| ID.Buzz but these look like personal/family models, not much
| seems available in the commercial utility sector. Kind of odd,
| really.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| There are a bunch of commercial EVs in Europe, eg. Renault is
| building small electric delivery vans, and Mercedes has the
| e-Vito van.
|
| I think the reason why there's little commercial interest in
| EVs is that the vehicles are extremely expensive up front, and
| just make no sense from a financial perspective.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| Rocket equation.
|
| Batteries still don't match the power density of liquid
| hydrocarbons, so large, heavy trucks with useful ranges end up
| with large, expensive batteries. The Rivian R1T has a 135KWh
| battery for 314 miles of range and starts at $69,000, while the
| Chevy Bolt has a 66KWh battery for 259 miles of range and
| starts at $26,595.
|
| The R1T has a mighty curb weight of 7,148 lbs, almost three
| _thousand_ pounds more than the notoriously oversized 2023 Ford
| F-150.
| clouddrover wrote:
| There are a number of commercial EV vans available in Europe.
| The European EV market is bigger than the North American EV
| market. Examples:
|
| ID Buzz Cargo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIHTSYUPalk
|
| Ford E-Transit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttitQvs8y1Q
|
| Renault Kangoo ZE and Renault Master ZE:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJOfU-cZYNo
|
| Tiny van: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31o6htzyH9E
|
| Other vans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXa7OgLud8I
|
| More vans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP8yHkb-ucY
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| Because EVs kind of suck when you want to transport things.
| Most countries have weight limits relative to your driver
| licence. I'm not allowed to drive any car whose weight is more
| than 3.5 tons (and that includes what you are currently
| carrying). So, instead of a 150kg engine and a bunch of gas,
| you now have at least a ton of batteries to carry around for
| your vehicle to be somewhat useful. And that's before
| everything else. So now, an artisan can only bring around 1 ton
| of crap, instead of the 2.5 he could before. This is even worse
| for long haul trucks.
| ihaveajob wrote:
| I was hoping for some e-bike mentions, which are far outselling
| the electric car market for many reasons, and would be
| revolutionary if we only dedicated a fraction of the effort we
| devote to car infrastructure.
| d_sem wrote:
| E-bikes as a second or third car replacement quickly pay for
| them selves and would free family's of the hidden costs
| associated with vehicle ownership. I suspect people would be
| more receptive to e-bikes, and other forms of low cost micro-
| mobility, if they knew the true costs of vehicle transportation
| systems.
| 0xbadc0de5 wrote:
| Tesla killers are like fusion power plants. Just a few years away
| (and always will be).
|
| Anything that isn't in mass production can be ignored as probably
| vapourware.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Earlier this year it seemed like all the Tesla owners in my
| village in the UK overnight got rid of them and bought Polestars.
| pja wrote:
| The wealthier end of my acquaintance circle are buying
| Polestars. The Hyundai Ioniq is also getting very good reviews
| at the cheaper end of the EV scale.
|
| Lots of Teslas on the streets though & anecdotally the
| supercharger network makes a big difference.
| csa wrote:
| As soon as any EV actually threatens Tesla's spot on top of the
| premium mass market, then Tesla will whip out advanced battery
| tech that they are sitting on that will enable them to crush the
| competition in terms of range/weight ratios and pricing
| flexibility that gives them.
|
| I'm not saying this as a fanboy, rather as someone who is willing
| to acknowledge the lead in batteries that Tesla has on everyone
| else.
|
| Tesla's moat is in their battery tech, and I think that they will
| be able to maintain this moat for at least five years, perhaps
| more. They need to catch up in manufacture and design in order to
| remain competitive, but I think that they can do that.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Tesla told everybody their advanced battery tech on battery
| day. It's coming, and it's impressive, but so is the new stuff
| from CATL et al. Not a massive advantage they have in their
| back pocket, and it's not secret.
|
| What Tesla does have is a massive margin. If/when they are ever
| threatened, they have lots of room to cut prices. AFAICT, given
| the choice Elon would rather cut prices than margin.
| JoshTko wrote:
| What lead? 99% of their battery volume is coming from Panasonic
| or CATL or other chinese manufacturer, Their 4680 cell has same
| power density as panasonic as of today and they are only
| producing a tiny tiny volume today.
| csa wrote:
| > What lead?
|
| Do you think current production is the best they have?
|
| I don't.
|
| The current production battery is most likely the most cost-
| efficient in terms of getting them into cars at the volume
| required, but I imagine that this could change very quickly
| if deemed necessary.
| MoreSEMI wrote:
| The current energy density of their batteries is pretty
| much at the theoretical limit of the "lithium-ion"
| chemistry. Unless they are sitting on a new battery
| chemistry, which I doubt, they would need to develop a new
| one.
| csa wrote:
| > Unless they are sitting on a new battery chemistry,
| which I doubt, they would need to develop a new one.
|
| I am willing to bet that there is a new design that is
| "in the can".
|
| I am also willing bet that they will continue optimizing
| that design until the market dictates that it has to go
| to production.
| sidibe wrote:
| Is there anything in Tesla's history that would lead you to
| believe they'd be sitting on some technology and not making
| announcements every few months about their amazing progress
| on it and imminent production of it?
|
| Tesla is much more likely to announce a great new battery
| before they've even started working on it than after it's
| almost ready.
| csa wrote:
| One is marketing and/or hucksterism.
|
| The other is a moat.
|
| They absolutely are not going to announce/reveal their
| moat, especially when it loses a lot of its value as a
| moat when it is revealed.
|
| It seems like there are some doubters here.
|
| Just remember that you heard it here first when it
| happens.
|
| Expect 500-600 mile range for current vehicle line and
| substantially lower prices for current "long"range of
| ~320 miles, probably sold as one-motor "standard range"
| in order to keep the markets siloed.
| speedgoose wrote:
| You forgot LG.
| rafiki6 wrote:
| I don't quite understand the strategy of sitting and waiting on
| a technology competitive advantage. Surely, to get the
| technology ramped up and integrated into their manufacturing
| process isn't an instantaneous thing?
|
| I do agree that Tesla's entire value is in their battery tech.
| Their 'premium' cars are actually about on par with Korean and
| Japanese mid-tier vehicles in terms of quality at best, by
| every objective measure. But their pricing is luxury level
| simply due to the cost of batteries.
| csa wrote:
| > I don't quite understand the strategy of sitting and
| waiting on a technology competitive advantage.
|
| 1. Utilizing current facilities, thereby being able to spread
| out the fixed cost of building a manufacturing plant over
| more units.
|
| 2. Related to 1, waiting until building new facilities is
| necessary to be competitive in order to be able to use the
| most up-to-date battery design as well as most up-to-date
| facilities design.
|
| 3. Keep the design a secret as long as possible. I'm not sure
| if its possible to keep battery tech a secret, but if there
| is no functioning version, then it can't be reverse
| engineered.
|
| > Their 'premium' cars are actually about on par with Korean
| and Japanese mid-tier vehicles in terms of quality at best,
| by every objective measure. But their pricing is luxury level
| simply due to the cost of batteries.
|
| Totally agree.
| bhauer wrote:
| The phrase "Tesla killers" needs to be killed. Every EV maker
| sells every EV they make. EVs are supply constrained.
|
| When a legacy manufacturer or EV startup adds to the EV supply,
| it takes from ICE vehicle market share, not Tesla market share.
| So any new EV is an ICE killer, not a Tesla killer. The majority
| of people buying EVs from legacy brands are doing so because they
| are fans of those brands; they weren't going to be buying a Tesla
| anyway. And even those who considered Tesla and chose another
| brand do not result in a lost sale to Tesla since someone else
| will buy that unit. Demand exceeds supply.
|
| Another faux pas the article makes is assuming that the number of
| models has any meaningful relationship to the number of units
| delivered to customers. Tesla continues to dominate the world EV
| market with just four models: a mid-size sedan, a CUV, a full-
| size sedan, and a mid-size SUV. It doesn't matter if you have 11,
| 14, or 30 models in the pipeline if you simply cannot manufacture
| as many units because of battery constraints or whatever excuse
| applies at the moment.
|
| It's also bizarre to see Tesla's very high R&D capital efficiency
| as a liability:
|
| > _Tesla, by contrast, has spent less in total vehicle R &D since
| 2008 than Toyota and Mercedes-Benz each spent in 2020 alone._
|
| Toyota has essentially nothing of note in the BEV space to show
| for their big R&D expenditures in 2020, aside from the
| underwhelming BZ4X.
|
| The article claims traditional OEMs are poised to out-produce
| Tesla with no explanation of how they expect to achieve Tesla's
| _current_ production rate, let alone Tesla 's future production
| rate with two big factories spinning up in Austin and Berlin.
|
| Don't get me wrong. I really like the looks of several EVs from
| the likes of Polestar and Nio. But it's clickbait to call these
| "Tesla killers."
|
| Just be honest: they are ICE killers.
| Maarten88 wrote:
| All true, it will take a while for EV supply to catch up with
| demand, and Tesla is in a very good position, they seem to have
| locked in a lot of battery supply, their production is very
| efficient and they have much better margins than all other
| manufacturers. Most traditional manufacturers sell EV's at a
| loss, and talk about 50% EV's in 2030, which seems far to
| little too late, I think they'll need to move much faster if
| they want to avoid bankruptcy.
|
| I do think Tesla's position is very similar to Ford's position
| over a hundred years ago. Ford initially had all the same
| advantages with the T model. Yet Ford was overtaken in the
| 1920's by GM who started segmenting the market, giving
| customers different brands, models and options to choose from.
|
| For the coming years no manufacturer will be able to really
| compete with Tesla, but I do think Tesla will need to introduce
| more models and start covering more niches in the car market.
| Magi604 wrote:
| If Elon were to focus solely on building and improving Tesla
| instead of diverting his attention to other things like Twitter,
| he could probably keep up.
| spamizbad wrote:
| Given his handling of Twitter I would say the less attention he
| pays to Tesla the better off they'll be
| izzydata wrote:
| I don't think he actually does anything at Tesla though so they
| should manage just fine without him. Assuming the company was
| at all capable of competing which I doubt.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Maybe Elon focusing on Twitter is a good thing for Tesla? Until
| Elon's image suffered enough to impact the perseption of Tesla
| as something different from a classic car company, and the
| evaluation drops accordingly.
| uJustsaidit wrote:
| [deleted]
| toss1 wrote:
| At this point, with Tesla's quality issues, it seems more like
| catch-up is what he needs to do.
|
| The solar roof & battery businesses could be really good, but
| it seems that their battery capacity is constraining their car
| biz, so no room to expand, and they've been having yet another
| round of cancelling solar roof installs, but why?
|
| In any case, there's a lot more he could be attending to.
| Hellion wrote:
| Teslas are fine(ish) cars, but they seem resistant to forming
| deals to provide skateboards to niche applications, like Chinese
| companies are doing. There's big money there!
| markdown wrote:
| You want Tesla to sell skateboards? I don't get it.
| spamizbad wrote:
| I assume it's the name for just a battery + chassis +
| electric drivetrain. Let's customers put whatever "shell"
| they need over it.
| jdpedrie wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skateboard_(automotive_platfor.
| ..
| [deleted]
| zbrozek wrote:
| In case the jargon isn't transparent, in automotive a
| 'skateboard' is roughly a flat frame with batteries, motor,
| motor controller, and suspension onto which you can bolt the
| rest. A vehicle platform, really.
| 0xbadc0de5 wrote:
| OP is referring to the battery, power electronics and
| drivetrain. If you picture lifting the body off - sorta looks
| like a skateboard. (although cars like Tesla are highly
| integrated - there's probably still good money to be made in
| selling the "dev kit")
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| Why would they reduce their margin when that was the hard part?
| Anon1096 wrote:
| Why would they do that when they can't even meet Tesla demand?
| bluGill wrote:
| While more complex unibody construction is generally better
| than frame on chassis. There is a reason most cars and SUVs are
| unibody and those won't change. Thus skateboard isn't a useful
| idea.
|
| Trucks often are frame on chassis though, so if all you are
| going after is the truck market then skateboard makes sense. A
| worthwhile market for sure, but not as big as you think it is
| jamiek88 wrote:
| >VinFast has announced VF 8 pricing will start at US$40,700 -
| plus a monthly battery subscription fee of US$110. Customers who
| don't travel long distances can pay just US$35 a month for 498km
| worth of travel each month, with each additional kilometre being
| charged at the rate of 18 cents
|
| No thank you!?
|
| The upside of this is that they will replace the battery once it
| goes below 70% and price the car cheaper at 40k USD.
|
| You'd have to batter the battery to get that far down the curve
| though I think.
|
| Not sure the payoff is there.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I have to admit that that shows some heavy confidence to open
| with that kind of value proposition. I briefly wondered if it
| is targeted at businesses, where this could be considered if it
| comes with some assurances, but it does not appear to be the
| case. Makes me question, if the company did their target
| demographic research ( or they simply know something we don't
| ).
| sbierwagen wrote:
| (498 kilometers is 309 miles.)
| jerlam wrote:
| From the VinFast web site, looks like you can buy the car and
| battery without a subscription by paying an additional $15,000.
| I'd still be worried about how the subscription is enforced and
| tracked, especially from a company that's new to the market.
| Seattle3503 wrote:
| Do you take all the risks an owner would? What happens if you
| don't drive much and leave it out in the cold, killing the
| battery? Are you on the hook for that?
| davedx wrote:
| It's a pretty good roundup of the competition, but the closing
| line made me chuckle.
|
| '"Production is hard. Production with positive cash flow is
| extremely hard." Elon Musk tweeted this in 2021.
|
| Welcome to the car business, Elon. And it's not going to get any
| easier.'
|
| The writer supposes that "the establishment" is going to be able
| to produce EV's at scale with positive cash flow better than
| Tesla. But:
|
| * The pure EV startups like XPEV and NIO have awful margins
|
| * The OEM's like Volkswagen have ~18% gross and 6.3% net income
| margins, Vs Tesla at ~26% and ~14.9%. OEM's also don't break down
| their margins on their EV programmes - Volkswagen's is for the
| product mix including its established ICE cars. Toyota is
| similar. Who knows if they're making any profit on their EV's.
|
| The author also claims Tesla is "a company that's still
| struggling to build cars at volume". I'm not sure how to
| reconcile that with their 50% CAGR.
|
| It's great that Tesla has competition! The world needs more EV's!
| Why can't we celebrate that competition without always having to
| denigrate Tesla? Why does every new EV entry have to be a "Tesla
| killer"?
| hef19898 wrote:
| Same reason every sporty car is a Porsche killer, reputation.
| And reputation cuts both ways.
| practice9 wrote:
| It's bad marketing speak which started with a decade ago with
| "iPhone killers"
|
| Doubt average consumer would want to drive on the road in
| "anything"-killer, if you know what I mean :D
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| > Welcome to the car business, Elon. And it's not going to get
| any easier.'
|
| Doesn't Tesla make more money per car than anyone else except,
| maybe Ferrari?
| bluGill wrote:
| Amortize the R&D. Profit per car is worthless which is why
| almost nobody cares
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