[HN Gopher] Eye contact marks the rise and fall of shared attent...
___________________________________________________________________
Eye contact marks the rise and fall of shared attention in
conversation
Author : yamrzou
Score : 153 points
Date : 2022-11-20 15:03 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.pnas.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.pnas.org)
| tgv wrote:
| The abstract oversells it, as usual. The effects are small, and
| the modelling is loose. Other studies have shown that gestures
| can play a role in turn taking, and that we are capable of
| predicting when the speaker is going to finish simply by
| listening. Eye contact may be just one more factor weighing in.
| lvl102 wrote:
| I am not gonna lie, I don't look at people in the eyes because I
| can sometimes see that they're lying to my face. You don't need
| to make such a personal connection every single time you engage
| in a conversation with people. Most people are not worth that
| type of attention.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| This is sad
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| > _I don't look at people in the eyes because I can sometimes
| see that they're lying to my face._
|
| Ignorance is bliss I guess? I prefer to know. Usually I don't
| call people out, but I still prefer to know.
| iwillbenice wrote:
| sdwr wrote:
| I love the direction, drilling down into conversation mechanics.
| Very cool that technology is enabling this kind of deep dive.
| It's a very conservative article tho, not making any big points.
|
| I'd like to see a stab at a theory that explains how conversation
| actually works. Intuitively, it feels like a hack built on top of
| systems designed for acting in the world.
|
| I think social position is written on the face. The labiofacial
| folds measure exclusion (deep lines indicate social
| isolation/discomfort, no crease indicates strong social ties).
| Feels tied in with nervous laughter as well.
|
| Eye openness
| oblak wrote:
| First year phrenology student?
|
| Seriously, though. As I get older, I am starting to think there
| might actually be a strong correlation between how people look
| and act. What I don't know for sure is which is first. Some is
| obviously nature bur nurture is obviously a thing, too.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| > _I am starting to think there might actually be a strong
| correlation between how people look and act._
|
| I think the way people act influences the way their
| appearance is perceived in very subtle ways. A sketchy liar
| could have exactly the same bone structure as an honest man,
| but the sketchy liar will be perceived as less honest due to
| almost imperceptible differences in body language, the way
| they hold their facial muscles, etc. The result of these
| subtle differences can be detected with a vague sensation of
| _" this guy is sketchy, he's probably about to lie to me."_
|
| Also I think there is an element of truth to the old wive's
| tail of "your face is going to get stuck like that". People
| who frequently have malicious facial expressions in private
| will find themselves having malicious facial expressions when
| they don't mean to, when interacting with the people they
| intend to deceive. Maybe out of pure habit, or maybe because
| those muscles are just getting more exercise. Somebody who
| often has a lopsided smirk will develop muscles on one side
| of their face more than the other, and eventually they can't
| help but to smirk by default.
| surfpel wrote:
| The brain is a physical structure. So is it inconceivable
| that some genes may code for phenotypes in both the brain and
| external appearance, or have some indirect purely biological
| relationship? I'm not suggesting that this would account for
| a significant portion of the correlation between external
| appearance and behavior (if any at all), but maybe it's
| enough to be picked up subconsciously.
|
| Domestication syndrome seems to suggest a link. [1]
|
| 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_syndrome
| nottorp wrote:
| Maybe for normies.
|
| Could the sales type extroverts stop setting standards for
| everyone please?
|
| I never bother with eye contact. Whats important is what they're
| saying.
| khazhoux wrote:
| The majority of comments here are from people (including
| myself) who hate eye contact.
| marginalien wrote:
| It is for that reason why online meeting tools like Zoom, MS
| Teams, etc., should provide an option to hide your own video from
| yourself - I believe one's own video is a massive source of
| distraction from concentrating on other persons in a
| conversation.
| stevage wrote:
| Most of them do? Certainly Zoom does.
| khazhoux wrote:
| Teams does not. So annoying... I can't stop from looking at
| myself talking.
| marginalien wrote:
| Same here.
|
| From time to time I observe where other meeting
| participants look at and I feel like this is very, very
| common (you can tell by the specific corner a person is
| looking at in some of these applications)
| yolo3000 wrote:
| The moment I make real eye contact I hope for the conversation to
| end quickly, because I can't disconnect the eye contact. I try to
| offset my gaze a bit, but for some reason my mind will try to
| make eye contact again, it's hard to concentrate and keep my eyes
| from making contact again. And when I make eye contact, it's like
| I see straight inside the person. Now that I think of it, this
| differs from person to person, it feels more weird when the other
| person is not someone close to me.
| amelius wrote:
| Is there a maximum duration of eye contact (after which things
| get awkward)?
| nickjj wrote:
| I don't think so.
|
| In person I tend to look into people's eyes for mostly the
| whole conversation (easily 95% of the time) when I'm either
| listening or talking minus natural breaks to react to a noise
| or event that warrants looking away. I've had really long chats
| like this where I never got a hint someone was weirded out.
|
| Honestly I couldn't even imagine talking with someone without
| looking at them. In my mind that would be one of the rudest
| things you could do, especially if they're the one talking. I
| also wonder if this comes down to how you feel about yourself.
| I think when you're looking at someone's eyes you know what
| they're looking at it. For me, knowing where they're looking
| makes me more relaxed.
|
| I'm in the US and don't recall ever being brought up a certain
| way, it just "feels" right to do the above.
| huqedato wrote:
| I am one of those that can communicate effectively but cannot
| make eye contact with the other party. Simply can't. I never
| could. If I try to look him/her/them in the eyes I am loosing
| control, can't find my words, losing the train of thought and
| focus. This inability brought me a lot of disadvantages in time.
| For example, I've been underperforming at all interviews and oral
| exams.
| mradek wrote:
| I am terrible at eye contact. First of all my eyeball FOV is set
| to like 60 and I wear glasses so when people are too close it's
| hard for me to make eye contact because I just see their whole
| face lol. Also when I talk to some people who make strong eye
| contact I feel like they're looking into my soul and it's
| uncomfortable.
|
| I know it's a me problem, just my experience tho lol.
| p0nce wrote:
| For me eye contact is basically aggression. I don't like doing
| it, and I don't like people thinking it means some kind of
| authenticity.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I suspect eye contact is rather engrained in our species. It's
| a very important part of communication, or so I've been told
| and experienced.
|
| I've definitely seen people disadvantaged by being unwilling or
| unable to look others in the eyes while having a conversation.
| But I'm not sure we should go as far as discouraging it because
| some people feel aggressed by being looked at.
|
| At the same time we can all endeavour to be more understanding
| that people not being able to make eye contact doesn't
| necessarily mean much.
| lamontcg wrote:
| > I suspect eye contact is rather engrained in our species.
| It's a very important part of communication, or so I've been
| told and experienced.
|
| Except as has been pointed out several times in this thread,
| the two most populous countries in the world consider it
| rude, which means your opinion is probably a minority opinion
| worldwide and not really so ingrained.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| Keep in mind that in some cultures eye-contact is avoided:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differenc...
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| I should move there immediately.
| BigRedDog1669 wrote:
| I support you brother
| dagmx wrote:
| Yeah coming from a culture where you were taught not to make
| eye contact and then going to a country where it's rude to not
| look someone in the eye was very jarring.
|
| I still have to basically look at someone's temple to get by,
| even a decade later. The discomfort of making eye contact is
| just so ingrained now.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| Yeah this is a common issue for people who move across
| cultures.
|
| I had a boss who said he only hires a certain ethnic group
| because they always take on more work and never say no.
|
| He had 2 of these people end up in hospital and a formal
| accusation of bullying against him... my conclusion was, he'd
| narrowed on a culture that is averse to social challenge /
| conflict. Where saying "no" would be socially unacceptable.
|
| But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is
| then responsible for judging the situation and not making
| direct requests that are impossible to refuse.
| js2 wrote:
| Ask Culture meets Guess Culture:
|
| https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-
| bet...
| a1445c8b wrote:
| I <3 you, Hacker News.
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| > But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager
| is then responsible for judging the situation and not
| making direct requests that are impossible to refuse.
|
| You assume he cares. Assuming the person across from you
| gives a crap about you is a regularly fatal one.
|
| Humans are not basically good. They are basically greedy.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| Most humans are both good (empathy is a strong thing) and
| greedy (wanting what's best for yourself and those are
| you close to is also a strong incentive). Balancing those
| two, sometimes opposing, desires is part of being human.
|
| It's worth noting that they're not always opposing.
| Sometimes empathy makes us feel better when others feel
| good, and the negative impact on ourselves can be more
| than countered by the good feeling from making others
| happier.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| Most humans are basically good. A significant minority
| aren't, maybe about 10%. Enough that you should never
| ignore the possibility the other person is a psycho, but
| few enough that you should never assume everybody else is
| a psycho.
|
| Also, psychos tend to concentrate in certain places. If
| you're in a board room, or hanging out with a bunch of
| surgeons, perhaps it's rational to assume everybody else
| there is a psycho.
| dagmx wrote:
| Yeah unfortunately I see that a ton as an Indian myself ,
| where we've been taught to be submissive.
|
| Many of my other Indian coworkers are always too scared to
| push back in any form, and many of my Indian friends back
| in India would work till the early hours of the morning
| regularly.
|
| I'm lucky in the sense that I know to push back often when
| something doesn't feel right or is illogical to me.
| Ironically I was often chided in high school for that as
| teachers would suggest that this would be bad for my
| career. It's actually been the best thing for it, letting
| me become system architects at multiple large companies.
| But I see where they were coming from, in that the same
| attitude would have burned me if I'd stayed.
| BaudouinVH wrote:
| (unless you are somewhere on the autism spectrum)
| 121110987654321 wrote:
| As we age, maybe prior experience coalescing as 'wisdom' begins
| to play a more active role in our day to day decision making?
| That wisdom manifesting in more of a consciously aware way...
|
| Whereas maybe we once used to (passively or actively) make
| important judgement calls about a persons broader character based
| on certain physical attributes such as the uniqueness of their
| face, our wisdom says it just doesn't matter in quite the way we
| maybe once thought. One of the biggest lessons I learned early on
| when starting in the tech industry is absolutely never assume
| anything about anyone based on appearance. We've all fallen for
| that before!
|
| This is industry dependent because for example, if we're talking
| about the fashion industry then things are different. I
| digress...
|
| Regarding the body language and signaling by extension of
| appearance in American culture it can be used as an measure of
| certain aspects of someone's personality - not necessarily bad in
| the lack-of-eye-contact scenario, but we know it's a lot harder
| for someone to maintain the impression of engagement throughout
| inattentive interactions. Eye to eye is engaging, anything else
| is less.
|
| However, since it's about establishing trust and respect when it
| comes to a new business relationship, at least in America,
| there's a sense of 'can I trust this person', that's rooted in
| fear. So if we're talking about something important presumably
| with potentially painful financial or reputational ramifications
| - then you tell me if it matters that this person is unwilling,
| or unable to look into your eyes? Does the inability to match
| ones gaze lead itself to more or less inherent trustworthiness?
| mberning wrote:
| Maybe I'm a weirdo but I tend to look at peoples mouths more than
| their eyes. I'm not hard of hearing, but I feel like it helps me
| follow conversations better.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| The human body is giving non-verbal cues in many different
| ways. Maybe you've found something that works well for you.
| csa wrote:
| > I tend to look at peoples mouths more than their eyes
|
| Same.
|
| I've done this since I was a child.
|
| A side benefit is that I have become half way decent at reading
| lips.
|
| I learned at some point (teens?) to look at my conversation
| partner's eyes in certain situations, but it's not my default.
| samtho wrote:
| I actually found out I rely on lip reading during the pandemic
| when everyone was wearing masks and I couldn't understand about
| 2/3 people I was engaging with.
| VancouverMan wrote:
| When most people are asked to consider the accessibility
| problems that masking causes, they often don't realize that
| it extends beyond just the person wearing the mask.
|
| Like you just described, somebody else wearing a mask can
| impose a significant accessibility burden, even for people
| who may not necessarily have hearing difficulties, for
| example.
|
| Encouraging, or even forcing in many places, people to wear
| masks was truly an accessibility tragedy. It's made even
| worse by the fact that widespread everyday masking isn't even
| effective. A lot of people were forced to endure a lot of
| unnecessary and unjustifiable suffering.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| I have a similar problem, but I don't think lack of lip
| reading is the problem for me. I think a lot of people simply
| mumble when they have a mask on. Something about the
| sensation of the mask on their face has them start slurring
| words and speaking softly.
| VancouverMan wrote:
| For a large segment of the population, the act of covering
| the mouth (regardless of whether it's with a mask, a hand,
| or something else) activates a deep-seated submission
| reflex.
|
| Different individuals submit to varying degrees, and in
| different ways.
|
| Some people become very quiet and withdrawn, which can lead
| to the problems you describe when they try to communicate
| verbally while masked.
|
| Others feel intense paranoia, and desperately seek out
| authority figures to latch onto.
|
| Yet others realize that they're submitting, and it makes
| them feel weak and powerless. These are the individuals who
| often react aggressively when encountering somebody who
| isn't submitting like they are.
|
| It's quite a fascinating subject.
| layer8 wrote:
| The mask itself muffles the sound.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| Sure there's an element of that, but for some people it
| seems much worse than others. Some people can still speak
| clearly with a mask on, but many people can't.
| VancouverMan wrote:
| It can be particularly bad when there is a plastic
| barrier of some sort in front of the masked speaker.
|
| Even today, this is still pretty common at cashiers and
| checkouts in Canada, for example.
|
| Many of these barriers were put up rapidly without much
| thought, and are completely improvised. They aren't like
| the purpose-build security shields that still have holes,
| vents, or microphones/speakers to allow at least some
| verbal communication to take place.
|
| The thick, rigid plastic barriers are the worst
| offenders, by far, although even flexible plastic sheets
| can definitely disrupt communication, too.
| swayvil wrote:
| Ditto. Eyes are too intense.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| >Mean engagement was quantified as an average of the two
| continuous self-reported engagement ratings that each
| conversation partner made while rewatching a video of their
| conversation
|
| The tail is wagging the dog in this study. The study
| fundamentally fails to validly measure what it claims to measure.
| It's measuring the perception of attention, not attention itself.
|
| I only look at their face to signal that I'm paying attention to
| them, but if I'm looking at their face, I'm probably paying
| attention to looking at their face not at what they're actually
| saying. It's a very conscious move on my part to sacrifice my
| actual ability to pay attention to give off the perception of
| paying attention. If I want to both pay attention and look like
| I'm paying attention, I write notes.
|
| >186 subjects comprising 93 dyads (mean age: 19.38 y; 120
| females) participated. Subjects were recruited from Dartmouth
| College
|
| Also a rather WEIRD sample which is actually a major issue in a
| study like this since it's measuring something rooted in cultural
| perceptions.
| gundmc wrote:
| This is a huge problem for many psychology studies more
| broadly. Undergrads are a ready and plentiful source of test
| subjects for research professors, but they come with a huge bag
| of self-selected characteristics that may not extrapolate to
| the broader population at all.
| BeetleB wrote:
| For folks who are not aware of the WEIRD acronym:
|
| > In 2008, Arnett pointed out that most articles in American
| Psychological Association journals were about U.S. populations
| when U.S. citizens are only 5% of the world's population. He
| complained that psychologists had no basis for assuming
| psychological processes to be universal and generalizing
| research findings to the rest of the global population.[279] In
| 2010, Henrich, Heine, and Norenzayan reported a bias in
| conducting psychology studies with participants from "WEIRD"
| ("Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic")
| societies.[280][281] Henrich et al. found that "96% of
| psychological samples come from countries with only 12% of the
| world's population" (p. 63). The article gave examples of
| results that differ significantly between people from WEIRD and
| tribal cultures, including the Muller-Lyer illusion. Arnett
| (2008), Altmaier and Hall (2008) and Morgan-Consoli et al.
| (2018) view the Western bias in research and theory as a
| serious problem considering psychologists are increasingly
| applying psychological principles developed in WEIRD regions in
| their research, clinical work, and consultation with
| populations around the world.[279][282][283] In 2018, Rad,
| Martingano, and Ginges showed that nearly a decade after
| Henrich et al.'s paper, over 80% of the samples used in studies
| published in the journal Psychological Science employed WEIRD
| samples. Moreover, their analysis showed that several studies
| did not fully disclose the origin of their samples; the authors
| offered a set of recommendations to editors and reviewers to
| reduce WEIRD bias.[284]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias
| photochemsyn wrote:
| Even for people who think eye contact is important during a
| conversation - please, you don't want to do this while driving a
| vehicle. Keep your eyes on the road and have a normal
| conversation without looking at the other person. It's a major
| safety hazard, as bad as texting and driving.
| jleyank wrote:
| Get used to eye contact cuz if/when you lose hearing you'll be
| lip reading and trying to pick up cues re when to speak and what
| was said. Unless you have two hearing aids for stereo, where
| people look in a group is an excellent cue who is talking. And
| talking over people is an "I'm an asshole" cue that one should
| try to avoid.
| gertlex wrote:
| (I wear hearing aids and always have; not correcting you; just
| typing/sharing y own observations to see if I learn anything)
|
| I do plenty of staring at mouths (subconciously), and eye
| contact has always been a different thing than eyes-watching-
| lips, especially one-on-one. I'm not sure how it is for the
| normal-hearing, but prolonged eye contact has never been
| something I've done much of, my eyes usually regularly drop to
| the lips (or for those who I can hear really well, I won't be
| looking at their faces at all ;) )
|
| When following in a group setting, I do watch eyes, but have
| that strong response of looking away if the speaker happens to
| make eye contact. And yeah, participating/interjecting in
| conversations is a weakness.
|
| The whole masking thing though... has been new and rough. If I
| have to converse 1-on-1 with the other wearing masks, there's
| no lips to watch, but the eyes are still there! I haven't dug
| into it too much (spooky? eyes are just distracting non-
| lipreading motions?), but my brain does massively better at
| figuring out what is said if I look to the side (typically at
| the floor/wall). Whether or not I have any autism spectrum
| traits or not, I'm sure a higher percent of people wonder about
| such now, than they did a few years ago.
|
| Masks + group of friends: I pretty much auto give up and idle
| on my phone; the culture of "don't question others about
| wearing masks" is too strong to feel socially comfortable with
| asking for masks to be removed. That's definitely excuse-making
| on my part, but my friends also are pretty good about removing
| masks when we're seated for dinner, etc. so I haven't been
| forced to ask for mask removal anyways...
| jleyank wrote:
| I wear them also with severe loss. The eyes comment came from
| meetings before I got them. Many people "grow" into needing
| aids and go through a struggling period where many voices are
| just gone. Masks suck for deaf folks, but I can get a little
| from eye crinkles. And saying what a lot. And avoiding
| crowded, noisy restaurants as I'm screwed with or without
| aids.
| gertlex wrote:
| There's another thread below that mentions a bunch of the
| same things you and I just did. Good knowledge and
| confirmation!
|
| And agreed, masks have shown (what has been said plenty in
| the past), there's still a ton of readable emotion just
| around the eyes. Distracting, though!
|
| Relating to the growing into needing/wearing them: I've
| worn mine since age 3 (and gone from analog to digital,
| with some tradeoffs of each), they're a constant, but I
| also have suspicions of my listening comprehension getting
| worse-over-time. But it could also just as well be
| increasing self-reflection/awareness + new experiences.
| (Just this month, mid 30s, first time visiting Germany,
| after 6ish years of German classes in middle/high school +
| college; confronted some real hearing limitations trying to
| listen to natives!)
| gumby wrote:
| I wonder how much this is affected by culture ("a lot" would be
| interesting and "not at all" would be _very_ interesting). It
| feels like it 's a low-level innate communication thing (e.g.
| dogs do this too when communicating with humans, while inter-dog
| eye contact has different semantics).
|
| I do notice that I look at the speaker in a zoom call, even when
| I have my own video off. I also notice in big calls where many
| people have their cameras off, it's common that a questioner or
| commenter will enable the camera before speaking, and then
| disable it again when their turn is over.
|
| (I searched for "culture" and "language" before posting)
| oezi wrote:
| Probably the key reason why online meetings where eye contact is
| impossible never feel engaging.
|
| The cool tech demos from Nvidia and other which do gaze
| correction unfortunately didn't make it to Zoom or Teams.
| duncan-donuts wrote:
| I know I'm in the minority here but I've never experienced
| this. Eye contact for me is a deeply uncomfortable thing and
| I've struggled with it my whole life. I do make eye contact
| with people but I almost never sustain it for more than a
| couple seconds. I find online meetings to be pretty engaging
| most of the time. No less engaging than a meeting in an office
| with the same amount of participation.
| dazc wrote:
| I have never been comfortable with direct eye contact but the
| funny thing is that I am often complemented on my eyes, which
| feels kind of weird but also makes me realize how other
| people can judge you in ways you wouldn't normally consider.
| euroderf wrote:
| Yes. Eye contact can sometimes/often be unbearably intense.
| Not sure what the cure is.
| swader999 wrote:
| Just more of it I think. It's like anything, practice it
| until it becomes second nature and you can even feel
| relaxed doing it.
| swader999 wrote:
| Do you think you connect with others effectively in
| conversation? I struggle the same way and really have to
| focus on it.
| tartoran wrote:
| Yep, im one of these too and find online meetings more
| relaxing too. When I make (forced) eye contact I lose my
| train of thought and often have to glance at the ceiling or
| out in the distance when I'm in a deep conversation. But I
| adapted and I am comfortable not making eye contact when I
| deliver a speech. I may as well be on the spectrum somewhere
| as I've always been this way. The coping mechanisms I've
| built still don't help not disturb my train of thought when
| making eye contact, I have no problem with the eye contact
| itself but it's just too distracting sometimes.
| dragontamer wrote:
| In martial arts when I was younger, we spent at least a few
| sessions just staring at each other, to get comfortable /
| less awkward with looking at your opponent.
|
| That, along with taking punches to the stomach (We weren't
| very strong yet, so no worries about us actually injuring
| each other), just to get "used to getting hit", among other
| things... these kinds of training helps remove the mental
| blocks when you actually start to spar.
|
| I'd say that eye-contact is just one of those things you need
| to train for. I know I did, it helped me a lot inside of a
| sparring match to help me focus on the opponent rather than
| feeling awkward (they're looking at me kinda thing).
|
| -----
|
| If you haven't had martial arts practice, then you could just
| practice eye-contact with your friends instead.
| throw827474737 wrote:
| > I'd say that eye-contact is just one of those things you
| need to train for.
|
| But for why and what if I'm not into martial arts? Just for
| social norms and studies that say only then I am really
| engaged and pay attention, which is definitely not true for
| me?
| oblak wrote:
| Not that you care but I straight up ask people with
| sunglasses to take them off if they want to talk to me. I
| take covering your eyes as hiding.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| That sounds incredibly rude to me.
| csa wrote:
| > In martial arts when I was younger, we spent at least a
| few sessions just staring at each other
|
| This seems... not right.
|
| I'm guessing your martial arts teacher was not
| traditionally trained, but I could be wrong.
|
| In pretty much every sport that I have played in which I
| engage in some way with my opponents, it's pretty much
| always best to focus on the hips, since all
| major/significant motion starts there.
| tejohnso wrote:
| I took karate and was instructed to look at the eyes. I'd
| stare into the eyes while sparring.
|
| Didn't work well because I'd feel somewhat hypnotized by
| the eye contact and could never react in time to block
| strikes.
|
| The blocking method was ridiculous as well but that's a
| separate point. Looking back I think a high percentage of
| that karate training was counter productive or just
| useless.
| sdwr wrote:
| Useless for fighting maybe, but for socializing?
| yakubin wrote:
| It is useful for fighting. Allows you to see what your
| opponent is going to do early. If you look at their hands
| instead e.g. you'll see their movement well after it's
| already started, and you won't be able to react in time.
| That of course assumes your opponent is well trained.
| Amateurs' moves are so inefficient you might as well look
| at the ground and you'll still probably be able to defend
| yourself.
| fidesomnes wrote:
| guenthert wrote:
| > it's pretty much always best to focus on the hips,
| since all major/significant motion starts there.
|
| Not a martial artist, but I'm sure it starts with the
| intention. Whether that intention can be intuited from
| the glance I don't know, but wouldn't surprise me.
| lljk_kennedy wrote:
| You'll end up biting on feints - or worse, get hit - if
| you look at their eyes. A good fighter might look at your
| legs and begin moving as if to throw a leg kick, but
| throw a hook to the head instead. If you read their
| advertised intent and try to check the leg kick, you get
| knocked out by the hook.
|
| In MMA fights / sparring, I've found touch is the biggest
| thing to understand intent. A hand on the shoulder can
| feel where the opponent is moving. Like a race car driver
| who feels the slide through their butt and corrects the
| slide before their eyes are telling them they're sliding.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| At least in Basketball defense all about looking at hips,
| eyes lie.
| matwood wrote:
| When training in jiu jitsu, once I make contact with my
| opponent I tend to close my eyes most of the time. Once
| you see something it's usually too late, so you need to
| learn to feel your opponents body, their muscles tensing,
| their breathing, etc...
| neilv wrote:
| Sensei Shakira taught to do this because hips don't lie.
|
| Though Eagles style leverages that opponent can't hide
| their lying eyes.
| glogla wrote:
| Shakira is from Brazil. BJJ is from Brazil. Makes sense!
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| She's from Barranquilla, which is in Colombia.
| eternalban wrote:
| (aside: you have some very cool projects! )
| dragontamer wrote:
| A lot of martial arts is an "after school club" activity.
| It could very well be not martial arts related at all but
| more general social training the instructors wanted from
| us that time around.
|
| I dunno. Its where I learned to look people in the eyes,
| honest.
| csa wrote:
| > Its where I learned to look people in the eyes, honest.
|
| Oh, I totally believe you.
|
| It's the teacher I question.
|
| Regardless, I'm glad you were able to take away at least
| one positive from your instruction.
| dagmx wrote:
| I think statistically you're not in the minority.
|
| The two most populated countries in the world for example
| don't encourage eye contact, and when you account for the
| large number of countries in Asia that similarly don't, the
| statistical norm is to avoid eye contact.
| duncan-donuts wrote:
| Yeah in hindsight I'm probably not. Probably my own bias of
| 1) hearing from people that online communication just isn't
| the same 2) my own struggle with eye contact 3) being
| American.
| lelandfe wrote:
| > The cool tech demos from Nvidia and other which do gaze
| correction unfortunately didn't make it to Zoom or Teams
|
| Apple's Facetime does this by default. It actually works quite
| well - none of my friends or family have ever noticed it.
| https://mashable.com/article/fake-eye-contact-on-facetime
| BeetleB wrote:
| Worth reading the other comments from people (and cultures!)
| that prefer little to no eye contact.
|
| A prior discussion on the topic:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33003356
|
| As I mentioned there, personally, once I switched to WFH once
| the pandemic started, this was a total non-issue for me. I even
| switched teams and had all brand new coworkers. They never saw
| me and I never saw them. Everyone's totally fine with it.
|
| I mean, for many of us, we've often had to have meetings/calls
| with people in another geo anyway. People talk on the phone all
| the time and I've yet to hear someone say they didn't feel
| engaged talking to someone on the phone because they couldn't
| make eye contact. People fall in love that way all the time.
| kitanata wrote:
| ... in Nuerotypical populations.
|
| This study mentions but provides no data or analysis for how
| their study is impacted by or was affected by the differences
| between nuerotypical and autistic samples. Which is a shame
| because as an autistic person who doesn't like eye contact, I
| think those findings would have been much more insightful and
| potentially groundbreaking. My hope is the authors have plans to
| look closer at that.
| Pigalowda wrote:
| kitanata wrote:
| Welcome to the world of science where critique, positive
| criticism and open questioning is encouraged! We're glad to
| have you finally join us.
| Pigalowda wrote:
| Thank you for the re-welcome! I've been in "science" for 15
| years now, it's always good to be welcomed again.
|
| You should know that the cohort you would like studied was
| actually referenced in the article as a further avenue of
| study and an additional publication! So your critique of
| the current study is actually just a complaint that it
| isn't your cohort. They've outlined their materials and
| methods, you could maybe do a study yourself?
|
| "These findings raise many questions for further research--
| both for typical and atypical neurological populations--
| about how attentional states are modulated during
| interaction with downstream consequences on how minds
| engage with each other"
| iinnPP wrote:
| As someone you are referring to, though not on the spectrum, I
| can say confidently that eye contact has a negative impact on
| my following of a conversation. This is more true when the
| conversation requires more thought to contribute meaningfully.
|
| Perhaps interesting is that I do have a mild form of Tourette's
| syndrome. Eye contact for me very quickly becomes "itchy" and
| there is a lot of focus required to ignore that feeling for a
| lengthy conversation.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| you say typical, which means you already recognize the
| exceptions are exceptions, which makes this into nothing more
| than an observation that exceptions exist, but exceptions exist
| in everything, and so it is an uninteresting no-op of an
| observation. You could say "except for the exceptions" about
| everything on every topic.
|
| "2 plus 2 equals 4"
|
| "... in base 10, with arabic numerals."
| hinkley wrote:
| That's not what the title says. The title reminds
| neurodivergent people that, once again, go fuck yourself.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| uh huh ok
|
| or... it's already the default baseline that everything
| ever written about any chaotic system from humans to frogs
| to cells to the weather, is already understood to only ever
| be expressable in any other terms than percentages,
| averages, generalizations. All facts or observations are
| already only some percentage. _especially_ for humans,
| _especially_ for behavior, _especially_ for behavior in
| humans. It 's frankly ridiculous to mention, like any other
| truism.
|
| You could add a ridiculous qualifier on practically every
| other word in any statement on any subject, and that
| doesn't make them go from false to true, it makes them go
| from useful to useless.
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| It says nothing of the sort. If "neurodivergent" people are
| going to imagine insults where there are none, that cannot
| be helped.
| reilly3000 wrote:
| Wow. Do you feel the same way about feminism? Racism? Do
| you doubt the existence or severity of ADHD, ASD, etc?
|
| In case there was any doubt on that last point, consider
| that each of those lower lifespan by about 30 years, have
| ~15X higher suicide rates, and are 1:2 are not able to
| work full time.
|
| Insults are in the eye of the beholder. For a person with
| a disorder marked by issues with eye contact and
| understanding social nuances, imagining insults that
| aren't there IS the disability's effect.
|
| If you comment on how much a black person enjoys
| watermelon and you do so objectively without malice, it's
| still fair for that to be considered a big insult. Why?
| Because it has been used as a derogatory stereotype for
| many years.
|
| If you want to understand the perspective of
| neurodivergents, look up the terms "allistic" and
| "ableism".
| the_gipsy wrote:
| HN's average audience is probably not neurotypical.
| Spivak wrote:
| This is so silly because roughy 15% of people or 1 in 6
| people is neurodivergent.
|
| Or stated another way if you would feel squeamish about
| playing Russian Roulette then you're making the same bet if
| you make judgments about someone you're not sure is
| neurodivergent.
|
| If we play this game at the margins every human in the US is
| female and there's some exceptions.
|
| Things there's fewer of than neurodivergent people.
|
| - people who are left handed
|
| - the number of black americans
|
| - people with blue eyes
|
| - redheads
|
| - people who live in California
| eks391 wrote:
| 2 + 2 = 4 in any base system 5 or higher, not just 10 Anyway
| I agree with your argument and am not trying to nullify it
| with this tangential correction
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Are you telling me my statement was true except in some
| cases?
| ironSkillet wrote:
| To add to the chain of tangential corrections, it is
| incorrect to state that you are correcting a mistake. What
| your parent said was in fact a true statement, you just
| generalized it a bit.
| boomskats wrote:
| The Hacker News Parody Thread[0] has ruined your comment
| for me.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33680661
| electromech wrote:
| At a local Burger King drive-through, there's an attendant who
| looks off to the side while handing me stuff through the
| window. It was a learning moment for me: "so _that 's_ what
| other people see when I'm talking to them!"
| raldi wrote:
| Indeed. For some people, the way to know they're _really_
| paying attention is when they close their eyes altogether.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Just about to say that. I've worked with a few very talented
| engineers who simply wouldn't look anyone in the eye during
| conversation, but focused their full attention on the subject
| under discussion.
| Spivak wrote:
| Yep, if I'm ever making eye contact anyone I am devoting like
| 80% of my brain power to just that.
| furyofantares wrote:
| I'm sure that if you make any eye contact during conversation
| it marks the rise and fall of shared attention even if the
| correlation is lesser or maybe a lot lesser for you. Unless
| you're saying you do make eye contact but it's when your
| attention has lapsed, which I doubt is what you're saying but
| correct me if wrong!
|
| That said I've personally almost never made eye contact in 42
| years of life, but I do look at mouths which nobody has ever
| noticed isn't eye contact, and I'm sure serves the same
| purpose. If all you ever do is look away, it would be
| interesting to hear if you think there are other things that
| might serve the same "signal shared attention" functionality
| for you.
|
| I'll also note that autism isn't the only way to be atypical,
| and sure wouldn't be surprised if eye contact signals shared
| attention just as much in ADHD folks as in neurotypical folks
| (but would be very interested in finding out if that's true or
| not).
| Thlom wrote:
| Many with ADHD struggles with eye contact. It's too intense
| for more than a few seconds at the time.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Could you clarify what you might expect from a similar analysis
| performed on neuralatypicals? For example, would eye contact
| play little to no role in shared attention between two autistic
| people? I ask in part because I don't think I know that much
| about the autistic experience.
| kitanata wrote:
| I would suspect significantly reduced eye contact between
| autistic and Nuerotypicals and between autistic and autistic
| social pairings. My central question would be in high masking
| autistic individuals does there masking ability relate
| somehow to eye contact? And if so... by how much? Similarly
| in autistic-autistic pairings how much eye contact is
| required for autistic people to communicate well with each
| other? In my experience, and in some recent studies we see
| that autistic people can communicate seamlessly with other
| autistic people without the need for eye contact.
|
| This study asserts that eye contact is required for good
| social engagement and communication. What I am challenging is
| that that finding is probably only true in Nuerotypical
| samples and is probably not present in autistic people.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| > And if so... by how much? Similarly in autistic-autistic
| pairings how much eye contact is required for autistic
| people to communicate well with each other?
|
| As a neurotypical person, this is actually pretty
| interesting to me as well. I live in the US and here we are
| always taught to make eye contact when speaking to someone,
| as it shows as sign that you are "engaged" with that
| person. It's something so ingrained in you from a young age
| here that you start to think that this is how all humans
| should communicate.
|
| Neurodivergent people just tend to ignore those social
| constructs, makes me wonder if we as neurotypical people
| play all these social games and a neurodivergent person
| just looks at all that as window dressing that isn't
| required.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| > Neurodivergent people just tend to ignore those social
| constructs, makes me wonder if we as neurotypical people
| play all these social games and a neurodivergent person
| just looks at all that as window dressing that isn't
| required.
|
| I can only speak for my own view, which is that I find
| making eye contact uncomfortable, and I find that when I
| _do_ make eye contact it seems like I must be "doing it
| wrong" because it seems to make others uncomfortable too.
| Granted I may be reading others' reactions wrong, the
| possibility of which contributes to my own discomfort!
| MichaelCollins wrote:
| > _a neurodivergent person just looks at all that as
| window dressing that isn 't required._
|
| This seems like a hypothesis that we could test. For
| instance, by rationally explaining the practical utility
| of eye contact, to detect earnestness or deception. Then
| ask them to attempt this, and see if they can bring
| themselves to even try. My guess is most neurodivergents
| who avoid eye contact will find that eye contact remains
| too uncomfortable to even attempt it. This would show
| that their eye contact avoidance is not merely a matter
| of them not seeing any utility in a pointless social
| game.
| lstodd wrote:
| So this.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > ... in Nuerotypical populations.
|
| As pointed out in another thread, the population of cultures in
| the world where not making eye contact is the social norm
| likely exceeds that where it is, so no - not neurotypical
| population.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| I can focus better on what someone is saying if I'm not looking
| at them. Sometimes it's detrimental because others think I'm not
| paying attention. If I do look at a person's face while speaking
| with them, it is most beneficial to me to look at their mouth and
| read their lips while I listen. But then I'm like aware that I'm
| staring at this person's mouth so then I'll fake eye contact by
| looking them in the eyes but blurring my vision slightly. I'm not
| sure if that looks weird, but I think people don't notice. Nobody
| has ever said anything about my eyes looking odd. Or maybe they
| just think that's how they are.
| Gareth321 wrote:
| Same here. I feel like I'm hyper-focusing on their facial
| features and expressions instead of their words. When I'm
| looking away I can devote my full attention to their words (and
| tone).
|
| I've overcome this to a degree with a lot of practise, but it's
| not my comfort zone.
| out-of-ideas wrote:
| For me it falls as a "dont care" if we use a Karnaugh map/truth
| table; i'd more likely believe that "looking somebody in the
| eyes" for conversation has evolved from some trust issues
| similar to hand-shaking to show a form of trust.
|
| I've had many-a-day playing some relaxing/intense video games,
| all the while having very in-depth conversations with both
| people online (no eye contact there) as well as with people in
| the same room who were also playing video games.
|
| People that think you are not paying attention just need to
| both learn and understand that not everybody is the same in how
| brain functions work; we are also taught to take notes in
| lectures as well, and as far as I recall, there was no staring
| the lecturer in the eyes while I was writing shit down... (and
| then mulling over data and questioning as needed)
| noodles_nomore wrote:
| I agree a lot. You make eye contact to catch nuances in
| meaning of a socially laden topic, or when you want to gauge
| the other persons reaction to what you're saying etc.
| Different topics just require different levels of eye
| contact.
|
| There are some people though, who are clearly very socially
| apt who almost stare at you while they keep talking, which
| actually seems weird to me. Firstly, what are they looking
| at? It seems kind of shameless to say it crassly. Secondly,
| they don't gesticulate with their eyes, which makes them
| harder to read.
|
| The entire idea that someone has a problem with "holding eye
| contact" is misguided in my opinion. It doesn't explain what
| you could do to fix it, and focusing on where you are looking
| is most certainly going to make it worse because your visual
| attention is a low-level function that is supposed to work
| unconsciously. What one might have a problem with is not
| caring about the person you're talking to, or whether you
| catch the intricate social implications, or that they
| understand exactly where you're coming from. And if that's
| the problem, it's at least possible to work out some kind of
| solution for oneself.
| a1445c8b wrote:
| I also tend to stare at the mouth of the person I'm talking to!
|
| Which, I think, makes it look like I'm looking at their chest
| because the women I talk to almost invariably adjust their
| shirt in a way that suggests they've become uncomfortable
| (because they think I'm looking at their chest)
| alcover wrote:
| No, they would know by the angle of your eyes if you were
| staring that low.
|
| Looking intensely at someone's lips is at times the prelude
| to a kiss. I think this ambiguity makes them uncomfortable.
| gumby wrote:
| I also find I often look at the mouth of the person I'm
| speaking with but don't encounter the responses you have. Not
| sure why.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| The unfocused vision is quite obvious to some, I've had people
| complain that I look through them.
| penguin_booze wrote:
| Same here. I assume a thinking pose and look at a corner in the
| room - that should signal that at least my attention hasn't
| strayed elsewhere more significant.
|
| My another strategy is to make occasional eye contact while
| blurring my vision. To them, I'm making eye contact, whereas
| for me, it's not that different when I'm looking at the corner.
| erik_landerholm wrote:
| Yeah I'm really good at those hidden 3d pictures. I can split
| the focus of my eyes super quickly and will do that sometimes
| while looking at someone if I feel like I've not looked at
| their eyes for too long. On zoom if I'm really listening I'm
| literally turning my head to the side and possibly closing my
| eyes.
| bayofpigs wrote:
| musha68k wrote:
| Same for me. I think social cues / non-verbal processing
| hijacks the actual verbal information channel.
|
| One of the reasons why remote works so well for me.
|
| I realized that through the pandemic actually: I didn't even
| see it before, I always thought to be a very social nerd,
| thriving in in-person work interactions.
|
| Though ultimately I realized that open plan offices and context
| discussions in person - all of these seem to be major drains of
| both energy and focus for me at least.
| bombela wrote:
| Same. Blury vision trick and all. We are not alone.
| FPGAhacker wrote:
| I just tell people that I get distracted by facial expressions
| and I look down or away to really focus on what they are
| saying.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| Same. If I want to give what someone is saying my _full
| attention_ , that means I don't even want my eyes to take some
| of my focus.
|
| I'll usually close my eyes and nod along to what they're
| saying.
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