[HN Gopher] Cannon Lake: Intel's Forgotten Generation
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Cannon Lake: Intel's Forgotten Generation
Author : rbanffy
Score : 57 points
Date : 2022-11-18 12:01 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (chipsandcheese.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (chipsandcheese.com)
| Sakos wrote:
| Honestly, the past 5-ish years of Intel generations have blended
| together for me. I'm not even sure if they've already released a
| new one this year or what it might be called. Everything is some
| kind of Lake, they're all i3, i5, i7, i9, and they have some
| weird x000 naming scheme (then there are the utterly
| indecipherable xx00nn ones).
|
| Am I the only one who prefers the simplicity of Zen 1, 2, 3, 4?
| sys_64738 wrote:
| This is what happened when a company has marketing departments
| making such decisions unchecked. Sun had the same problem with
| their idiot marketing dept naming the Sun Niagra systems
| bizarre names like CoolThreads 1000 and systems with numbers
| like 5420. Larry came in and said it was stupid and to name
| them precisely what they were so they became T3-1, T4-2, etc.
| to indicate the chip generation and the number of chips on the
| system board.
| mark-r wrote:
| It's a good thing they fixed that problem and became the
| powerhouse that they are today. </sarcasm>
| dannyw wrote:
| AMD will be selling laptop chips of various older generations
| under one name soon in order to deceive consumers who aren't
| paying attention: https://youtu.be/MipuN4RU4m8
|
| A 7000 series laptop chip could be Zen 4, 3, or 2...
| BirAdam wrote:
| The Intel "core" series is just stale branding. Really stale
| branding. That name started being used in 2006 for an iteration
| of the Intel P6 microarchitecture (first implemented in 1995
| with the Pentium Pro). Intel's NetBurst (Pentium 4) wasn't
| great, so they brought something old back, made improvements,
| made it dual core, and we had the Intel Core Duo. They then did
| the usual licensing back and forth with AMD for AMD64, and they
| released the Core 2 (Penryn) just a little later in the same
| year. The Core iN series started with the Nehalem
| microarchitecture in late 2008. This was a major improvement
| over, but still an iteration on, P6. However modest these
| initial changes were, we are now so far removed from those
| earlier designs that carrying the "core" branding is just bad.
| Intel really needs refreshed branding. They should also do away
| with the largely irrelevant numbers and letters that they shove
| on the end of their CPU family names.nI would even be okay with
| just "Intel 8core 3.6gHz 2020" and so on, but Intel tends to
| prefer cringe apparently.
| goosedragons wrote:
| With the way Intel segments CPUs you need the stupid numbers.
| "Intel 8-core 3.6GHz 2020 no integrated GPU, no ECC with
| unlocked multiplier" is a bit of a mouthful.
| Sakos wrote:
| My biggest issue with that is I couldn't find it documented
| anywhere and it feels like they come up with new suffixes
| every year. I was on board with F and K, but now there's a
| bunch of others that I just have no clue what they mean.
| LegitShady wrote:
| https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/
| 000...
| BirAdam wrote:
| That's a really fair point. I support you could do
| something like:
|
| i82020GEM or i82020NNN
|
| so you have intel 8 core, 2020, GPU, ECC, multiplier or
| without... then we're back to really bad clusters of
| numbers and letters, but at least in that scenario it has
| meaning.
| selectodude wrote:
| But anybody who can parse that without looking it up
| obviously cares enough to look at the current product
| numbering scheme and hop on over to ark.intel.com all the
| same.
| Tsiklon wrote:
| The last canonical example of Intel refreshing their naming
| convention was with their Xeon line up which is now utterly
| incomprehensible, at a glance you used to be able to
| understand what was going on;
|
| EX-YZZZ vA
|
| E3 - Rebranded Desktop Class parts with ECC support
|
| E5 - High-Desktop & Regular Multi-Processor Server parts
|
| E7 - High-End Multi-Processor Server
|
| Y - Denotes Socket Support. ZZZ - Denotes a model number,
| indicating from low to high increases in features, cores
| and/or clock speed. vA - Denotes Generation.
|
| Xeon E5-2980v2 - is a high-core count server processor for
| use in dual socket servers, belonging to the Ivy Bridge
| Generation of parts.
|
| The new naming "convention" is as follows - from a glance can
| you identify any information from this;
|
| Xeon Bronze 3204
|
| Xeon Silver 4214R
|
| Xeon Gold 6212U
|
| Xeon Gold 6342
|
| Xeon Platinum 8280
|
| Xeon Platinum 8380
|
| Xeon W-2295
|
| Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum - are so unclear as to be
| meaningless - there are dual socket Silver processors more
| capable than some Gold processors. W prefixed parts are
| Workstation parts. The First Digit bears no connection to
| anything (except in the platinum series where it denotes 8
| socket capability), perhaps PCI-E Lanes? The Second digit
| apparently denotes generation. The Suffix denotes that it's
| only capable of running in a single processor configuration -
| except when it doesn't.
|
| Ohh, and the 'E3-**** v*' convention still stands for desktop
| rebranded parts.
|
| It's a complete mess.
| matja wrote:
| > The First Digit bears no connection to anything
|
| One pattern is: If first digit is 3,4,5 then it has one
| AVX512 FMA unit, if it is 6,7,8 then it has two.
|
| ...except the 5122 (2), 5219Y (2), 5222 (2) and 6122 (1)
| Tsiklon wrote:
| good shout - I'm not so up to speed with what AVX512 can
| accelerate, but is it such a distinctive feature that it
| warrants a full delineating model number?
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| an extra avx512 fma unit means it can do twice as many
| z=a*b+c instructions per clock. this only really matters
| for matrix multiplication (for anything else you are
| memory bandwidth limited), but 2x matmul performance is a
| really big deal for hpc
| acdha wrote:
| > Intel's NetBurst (Pentium 4) wasn't great, so they brought
| something old back, made improvements, made it dual core, and
| we had the Intel Core Duo.
|
| Core was based on the mobile-focused Pentium-M design from
| their Israeli team. That lineage traces back to the Pentium
| III but both the Pentium-M and Core designs had significant
| modifications so I wouldn't describe it as bringing something
| old back -- more like admitting that the NetBurst big gamble
| had failed and they switched to a design more like what
| everyone else was making. The P4 was kind of interesting as
| Intel's second bust around the turn of the century based on a
| design which tried to hit higher performance assuming
| everyone had access to highly-sophisticated compilers and
| would use them carefully. As with Itanium, I do wonder
| whether anything would have been different if they'd open
| sourced icc - the profits weren't significant and while that
| could have benefited AMD, I doubt that would have outweighed
| two major flops.
| onli wrote:
| On the desktop side Intel's naming is not so bad. We are at
| 13000 now, 12000 was before, 14000 follows. They call it 13th
| gen accordingly, which is incorrect but memorable.
|
| Zen isn't all that better. Sure, Zen 1, 2, ... seems clearer,
| but can you tell me on the top of your head which processor has
| which architecture? Including nice outliers like the Ryzen 5
| 1600 AF? Now do the same for the mobile processors, the naming
| there is a total clusterfuck.
|
| Also, maybe a bit more on topic: The current processor
| generation is actually nice and gives a real performance
| increase. Enough so that all three (i5-13600K, i7-13700K and
| i9-13900K) take the top three positions in my meta benchmark
| (for games). AMD follows right behind that (and needs less
| energy to do so), so it's really a good race now, just like the
| article concludes.
| jerrygenser wrote:
| Have you tried a power limited version of Intel to compare?
|
| I have my 7700x limited to 65w with very little performance
| loss -- it's very easy with eco mode. I've seen lot of
| benchmarks with 7000 series chips on eco mode but not so much
| on Intel side.
|
| These chips really should have been power limited with a
| little less multicore performance instead of being power
| drains.
| Sakos wrote:
| > but can you tell me on the top of your head which processor
| has which architecture?
|
| Not sure how that's relevant. By name, I have no idea if
| Cannon Lake is before or after Skylake. I only know because
| I've heard of Skylake longer than Cannon Lake. I'd have no
| idea how to place any of the post-Skylake architectures
| amongst each other chronologically or performance-wise. I
| know that Zen 1 is older then Zen 3, because that's how the
| naming scheme works. The same way I know that the PS5 came
| after the PS4.
|
| It's like the Xbox bullshit. The only reason why I know Xbox
| One is newer than 360 is because I'm a gamer who pays way too
| much attention to this shit.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > I know that Zen 1 is older then Zen 3, because that's how
| the naming scheme works.
|
| I think GP's point is that "zen" is the architecture, same
| as some random lake. Sure, 2 comes before three, whereas
| it's not clear whether the sky comes before the tiger.
|
| Whereas the AMD model number is 5600, say.
|
| But then you have interesting things, like 5500U mobile
| parts which are actually "zen 2+" and others, like the
| 5560U which are "zen 3".
|
| This was an issue for me last year when attempting to jump
| on the "zen 3 bandwagon", but having to look up "enterprise
| laptop" models, which wouldn't specify which kind of zen
| the cpu was, only some xyz number. Most were 4xxx, so I
| knew those were "mobile zen 2", but I almost picked one of
| the "zen 2+" 5xxx models.
|
| I haven't followed things _that_ closely, but I 'm pretty
| confident that an intel Xyyy is "gen X". And, usually,
| marketing copy says i5-Xyyy.
| goosedragons wrote:
| It's not always. For example "8th gen" Intel has both
| Kaby Lake and Coffee Lake CPUs, some gens have a mix of
| 14nm CPUs for desktop and 10nm for Mobile. It's honestly
| pretty confusing as to which Lake follows what at this
| point as they are slight refinements of slight
| refinements.
|
| AMD is at least making it so the second digit will
| indicate architecture (the first will be year released).
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I did not know that about Intel. Guess I'm lucky I wasn't
| in the market for a new PC at that time... Do they at
| least all support Windows 11, since I think "gen 8" is
| the first one officially supported?
|
| > AMD is at least making it so the second digit will
| indicate architecture (the first will be year released).
|
| Unfortunately, that's not always the case. See, for
| example, the Ryzen 5 5500U which is a zen 2 part and the
| 5560U which is a zen 3 part. The architecture is quite
| different, too: the first being a 2x3 configuration,
| while the second is 1x6.
|
| The Zen 3 one was also released as a 54xx "PRO" version.
| See [1] note 1.
|
| They were both released in January 2021, but then you
| have the Ryzen 5 4680U which was released _later_ , in
| April 2021, while being a zen 2.
|
| As a matter of fact, I'm quite sure the second digit is
| the model's place in the range. See 3700 desktop parts,
| which are zen 2, and 5700 ones which are zen 3.
|
| Moreover, to your point about differences between desktop
| and laptop parts, I've always considered that a given.
| Zen 2 desktop parts already had pci-e 4, whereas the zen
| 3 laptop ones only had pci-e 3, even the higher end ones.
| The first mobile parts to have pci-e 4 seem to be the
| 6xxx models.
|
| ---
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_2#Lucienne_(5000_se
| ries)
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_3#Cezanne_2
| goosedragons wrote:
| The AMD changes haven't taken place yet. They start 2023.
| Also I was slightly wrong with the 3rd digit actually
| being architecture.
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/7/23340934/amd-ryzen-
| model-n...
|
| The Windows 11 supported CPU list is pretty arbitrary and
| doesn't have much to do with the capabilities of the CPU.
| The main real requirement is TPM 2.0 and even that can be
| worked around. And there are some officially supported
| 7th gen CPUs because MS realized how dumb it was for the
| Surface Studio they were still selling to not be
| supported.
| wolpoli wrote:
| I remember Reddit discussions where they tried to figure
| out if the CPU support list lined up with any particular
| CPU features. It didn't make any much sense at all.
| Basically, Windows 11 supported 3-years old CPUs
| generations and (and later added) CPUs in Microsoft
| products that were actively being sold.
| adrian_b wrote:
| "8th gen" is indeed an extreme case, with a very large
| number of slightly different microarchitectures being
| covered by this name, due to a chaos at Intel, caused
| both by the failed 10 nm process and by the Meltdown and
| Spectre bugs.
|
| Nevertheless, all the "Kaby Lake" proper are "7th gen",
| not "8th gen".
|
| Among the "8th gen" there are only "Kaby Lake R" (R from
| Refresh) and "Kaby Lake G" (G from GPU, i.e. discrete AMD
| GPU on package).
|
| There are also 2 kinds of CPUs that have been weirdly
| branded as "8th gen", but which, both based on the date
| of their launch and on their features should have been
| branded as "9th gen", together with Coffee Lake Refresh:
| Whiskey Lake U and Amber Lake Y.
|
| The remaining CPUs branded as "8th gen" were Coffee Lake
| and Cannon Lake U.
| jl6 wrote:
| The confusion is intentional. It's easier to sell an old
| thing if the customer can't tell it's an old thing, and a
| lot easier if they also don't get any useful information
| about how the product compares to its competitors.
| acdha wrote:
| I'd be really surprised if this wasn't the exact reason.
| When you go to Costco, Walmart, etc. you'll see "Intel
| i7" in huge letters, but the actual generation might not
| even be listed somewhere you can see without opening the
| box.
| spicymaki wrote:
| Names like Skylake and Cannon Lake are just codenames for
| the architecture. AMD does the same thing with Matisse,
| Rome, Vermeer, Milan, etc. I actually find AMD naming
| mildly confusing Zen 3 Ryzen 5 5600x (Vermeer).
|
| The actual break down is quite simple and described on
| their website: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/proc
| essors/processor...
|
| tldr; Intel processors are numbered like 13900K (13th gen)
| the first 1-2 digits are the generation. So 9800 is 9th gen
| 10850K is 10th gen.
| ur-whale wrote:
| Agree that Intel naming schemes are very confusing and very few
| people understand them or care, even.
|
| However, AMD isn't any better ... is it a Vermeer or is it a
| Cezanne, a Chagall or a Milan?
| matja wrote:
| Ryzen 5xxxG(E) or Ryzen 5 5500 -> Cezanne
|
| Ryzen 5xxx -> Vermeer
|
| Threadripper 5xxx -> Chagall
|
| EPYC xxx3 -> Milan
| adrian_b wrote:
| To be fair, Intel also uses "13th generation Core" instead of
| Raptor Lake, "12th generation Core" instead of Alder Lake, "6th
| Generation Core" instead of Skylake, and so on, while AMD also
| has meaningless code names that are used for products before
| launch, e.g. Raphael for Zen 4, Vermeer for Zen 3, Matisse for
| Zen 2, Pinnacle Ridge for Zen 1+, Summit Ridge for Zen 1.
|
| In both cases, the shorter and easier to remember names have
| won in the conscience of most of the public, i.e. it is easier
| to remember Zen 2 than Matisse, but it is easier to remember
| which was Kaby Lake instead of which was the 7th Generation
| Core.
|
| Because both companies launch products typically every year, I
| would prefer something like Intel Core 2017 instead of Coffee
| Lake and AMD Zen 2022 instead of Zen 4.
| georgeburdell wrote:
| I worked at Intel's main R&D site from Sandy bridge to Meteor
| Lake bring-up on a team looking at electrical data. As I recall,
| the first Cannonlake wafers produced data relevant to me around
| New Years Eve 2015. This was not the first 10nm wafer by a long
| shot --- the process had been in development for years at that
| point and with many test chips run. Still, the initial data was
| so unbelievably bad, due to the lowest metal layers (supposed to
| be 10nm's secret sauce), that even just looking at the basic line
| resistor test structures it looked like the measurement machines
| had malfunctioned or had the wrong hardware configuration.
|
| Worst bring-up in my time. I feel bad for the architecture team.
| I know Intel is getting dunked on my AMD right now but internally
| the worst of it was years ago. I retain confidence in the
| direction things are heading now
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