[HN Gopher] The truffle industry is a scam
___________________________________________________________________
The truffle industry is a scam
Author : carabiner
Score : 512 points
Date : 2022-11-19 10:25 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.tasteatlas.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.tasteatlas.com)
| js4ever wrote:
| I perfectly remember being disgusted forever by a plate of pastas
| with truffle oil, I called the waitress and complained about the
| petroleum smell (and taste).
|
| Before that I had the real thing and it was amazing. I'm not sure
| if I will ever try again because of the bad memory.
| SapporoChris wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truffle_oil
|
| I sincerely doubt that any marketed truffle oil is based on
| petroleum. Perhaps the method of cooking influenced the taste?
| kleinsch wrote:
| You're missing the point. There are two ways to make truffle
| oil.
|
| 1. Put real truffles in some kind of oil (olive, canola, etc)
|
| 2. Put synthetic truffle flavor (commonly derived from
| petroleum) in oil
|
| The point of this article is that most of what you buy and
| are served is #2 marketed as #1.
| enriquto wrote:
| > I sincerely doubt that any marketed truffle oil is based on
| petroleum.
|
| It's explained right there in the wikipedia article you link
| to.
| knutzui wrote:
| Petroleum is not mentioned anywhere in that article. It
| does say that truffle oil may be based on any kind of oil.
| random_savv wrote:
| Maybe not directly mentioned, but a linked article says
| "2,4-Dithiapentane is the dimethyldithioacetal of
| formaldehyde. It is prepared by the acid-catalyzed
| condensation of methyl mercaptan, the main aromatic
| compound in both halitosis and foot odor and a secondary
| compound in flatulence,[1] with formaldehyde."
|
| not great!
| strken wrote:
| It's also an aromatic component in cheese and in real
| truffles. This is a misrepresentation of the facts on the
| same level as "dihydrogen monoxide makes up the majority
| of urine, industrial detergent, antifreeze, human sweat,
| and pus."
| SapporoChris wrote:
| Is this your reference? "Truffle oil can be produced using
| any oil. Common versions use olive oil, or a more neutral
| flavorless oil such as canola or grapeseed oil."
|
| Now tell me, why would a petroleum product be used with
| it's foul smell, when olive oil, canola, and grapeseed oil
| are available?
|
| More to the point, can anyone find a truffle oil where a
| petroleum product is listed in the ingredients?
| inexcf wrote:
| >Now tell me, why would a petroleum product be used with
| it's foul smell, when olive oil, canola, and grapeseed
| oil are available?
|
| They put the petroleum product into the other oils. Don't
| they?
| SapporoChris wrote:
| Yes, petroleum products are put into other oils for a
| variety of reasons. Do you have any evidence this
| occurring with truffle oil?
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| You're missing the point - that the _truffle flavour_ is
| derived from petroleum. It's not about the oil component,
| which as you say is a normal food oil.
|
| The idea is: fake truffle oil is some olive/rapeseed oil
| with a bit of 2,4-dithiapentane added to it. I don't know
| to what extent this flavouring is actually petroleum-
| derived, but the point is that it's not _actual truffle_.
| christophilus wrote:
| It mentions the flavor is produced by "one synthetic
| compound", and then links to articles on 2,4-dithiapentane
| which is generally derived from petroleum, though it can be
| derived from other compounds.
| efficax wrote:
| eh, sure it's fake, and of course it is, truffles are too rare
| and expensive to show up at the supermarket or on the shake shack
| menu. but good truffle essence is a complex melange of flavor
| compounds and not just 2,4-dithiapentane which provides the musky
| fungal base but none of the sweetness and spice that you also
| find in a good truffle "essence ". anyway yes if you're paying
| less than $100 for the dish it's probably not real italian white
| truffle
| elil17 wrote:
| Saying that 2,4-dithiapentane has nothing to do with truffles is
| like saying that vanillin has nothing to do with vanilla. It's
| artificial truffle flavor. I happen to enjoy it, I'd just like to
| be charged a fair price for it given that it's not actually
| expensive.
| Tao3300 wrote:
| > Some will compare the difference between the natural flavor of
| truffles and the artificial truffle flavor with the difference
| between sex and sniffing dirty panties. [insert two quotes from
| celebs who aren't saying that]
|
| I don't know, man. This seems more like it's _your_ dirty panties
| analogy than something "some [people] will [say]".
| edb_123 wrote:
| I'm a bit confused. Does this apply to absolutely all truffle
| oil? For years I have bought one particular type, which has the
| following list of ingredients: Extra virgin olive oil, 1% truffle
| juice from white truffle (Tuber Magnatum pico), 1% natural aroma,
| 1% truffle aroma. So it's supposed to contain both the real thing
| and truffle aroma. It costs like EUR11 for a 55 ml bottle. Is
| much of the flavour the taste of the real truffle it contains, or
| the truffle aroma that it also contains?
| samatman wrote:
| None of the taste you're experiencing is from truffles. The
| truffle piece and juice could be completely removed.
|
| Worse, they're almost certainly lying: there's probably not
| truffle juice at all.
|
| The oil? Probably mostly soybean.
| AndyMcConachie wrote:
| A few years ago the Dutch government decided it wanted to make
| psylocibin mushroom illegal again. Only when they wrote the law
| they forgot one specific latin name of a mushroom containing
| psylocibin. Thus, the shops kept selling that specific mushroom
| and calling them truffles.
|
| I don't know why the shops started calling them truffles. Perhaps
| it was yet another way to get around the laws of selling
| mushrooms.
| cr1895 wrote:
| That's not quite accurate. It's not a particular mushroom which
| they forgot to ban. They are sclerotia, and there are lots of
| varieties.
|
| I don't know where the name truffle came about.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclerotium
| mistercow wrote:
| I find it very frustrating that authors so often want to engage
| with this on this status-motivated "cheap is bad and you
| shouldn't like it" level. It takes this author a _long_ time to
| get to "if you like it, that's fine", after we've been told that
| it smells like gasoline, that supposed "experts" in our own
| personal taste have told us that it doesn't belong in our
| kitchen, and that it's made of spooky petroleum products.
|
| Yes, food should be accurately labeled, and I'll take the
| author's word for it that the imitation stuff is not very close
| to the real thing in flavor. Sure. Those are fine points. Stick
| to those, and stop implying that if I like the stuff I like, I'm
| some sort of slop-eating prole. You can argue for truth in
| advertising without appealing to classism.
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| Agreed. And the whole "derived from petroleum" == "tastes like
| gasoline" thing is so dumb. Pretty much every chemical we make
| comes from petroleum feedstock. Most of them don't taste much
| like gasoline.
| tristor wrote:
| I only eat truffles in Michelin star restaurants in the US, it's
| truly ridiculous how out if control food quality and legitimacy
| is in the US. Here if you find truffle oil it's basically
| guaranteed to contain no (or minimal) real truffle, and the oil
| may not even be real olive oil.
|
| You can get fantastic high quality food in the US, but it's few
| and far between with a very high cost compared to average quality
| in Europe.
| massenpunkt wrote:
| There's an interesting documentary on ARTE about illegal truffle
| harvesting in Romania:
| https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/100299-004-A/re-truffle-traffi...
| jl6 wrote:
| I'm one of those people who tried a dish that allegedly used
| truffle, and didn't like it. I don't recall getting any kind of
| gasoline smell though. If the deception is as far reaching as the
| article describes, I don't fancy my chances of being able to
| locate any actual truffle-based dishes in the near future, if
| even fine-dining establishments are in on the scam. Someone could
| show me a truffle and I still wouldn't know if it really was one.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| The bit about storage not being possible was something I wish I
| knew a year ago. We went to a fine dinning restaurant and bought
| a good-sized whole white winter truffle for the table that was
| shaved on to various dishes over the evening. At the end of the
| night we still had most of it left, so I put it in the fridge,
| thinking I could use it again in a couple of weeks.
|
| Expensive mistake. It was total garbage.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| In Oregon & Washington, there are "truffle dog classes." They
| teach the dog how to sniff out whatever they call "truffles" up
| there. (Maybe someone who knows the species can tell us what they
| are.)
|
| I'm pretty sure my dog would be great at this, but then he would
| be worth stealing. Ergo, I'm not doing it. Aside from the fact
| that it would be a 10-hour drive for me.
| titanomachy wrote:
| "I'm pretty sure my dog would be great at this, but then he
| would be worth stealing. Ergo, I'm not doing it."
|
| Is this really how dog owners think? I'd better not teach my
| dog valuable skills because then someone will steal him?
| chihuahua wrote:
| I'm not sure how potential truffle dog thieves would be able
| to tell that a dog is good at finding truffles during the 364
| days a year where the dog is not searching for truffles. Or
| how they would steal the dog while the owner is walking
| around with it in the forest during the 1 day a year where
| they are searching for truffles.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I can't speak for other dog owners. I guess you have a
| problem with this?
|
| There are shitty people in the world. They'll steal the
| catalytic converter right off your Prius. And yes, dogs do
| get stolen:
|
| https://frenchbulldog.nyc/french-bulldog-theft/
| Fiahil wrote:
| I'm French and I live in France. Here, most of our truffles are
| real truffle.
|
| We do get some Tuber aestivum as well, but that's alright because
| they're displayed as "truffe d'ete". No harm done.
|
| As the article said, the "truffle flavour" has nothing to do with
| the real stuff, and outside of France, Italy and Spain, you
| probably won't get them on the market. You might be lucky in some
| restaurants all over Europe. But everywhere else it's propably
| not the "real" black truffle. Especially, if they put some in
| ketchup...
| MKais wrote:
| If/When you are in Paris, "Le comptoir correzien" [0] is a very
| good address to buy truffle (also foie gras etc). They supply
| some of the top fancy restaurants.
|
| [0] https://www.comptoir-correzien.fr/en/home/
| [deleted]
| cies wrote:
| > foie gras
|
| As if just breading and killing animals is not sick enough,
| there's foie gras.
|
| Finally it's being banned in more and more countries.
|
| https://animalequality.org/blog/2022/02/08/what-is-foie-
| gras...
|
| I find it bizarre that here on HN someone advertises it,
| albeit in parenthesis...
| sooyoo wrote:
| I agree with your overall sentiment. I'd never buy or
| consume foie gras and don't care that it's a "cultural
| thing".
|
| But your general description of meat production is a bit
| too simplistic. The main issue with it, for me, is not the
| very act of taking a life for food. It's about what comes
| before it. The life the animals have in captivity. There
| are differences of course, but generally lifestock is held
| in too little space, too high stocking density,
| inappropriate bedding, flooring and treatment in case of
| diseases. It's a matter of cost. One _can_ provide
| conditions where lifestock is suffering much less, having a
| good life even, but that means much more cost per pound
| meat sold. In addition, beginning of life (insemination
| which can be "natural" or artificial or some kind of in-
| between rape kind) and end (different ways of taking the
| life, some gas suffocating the animal causing terrible
| pain, or bolt-into-brain or) can also provide or prevent
| different levels of suffering. Again it's a matter of cost.
|
| I personally do eat meat. Not everyday but most days. I do
| try to ensure that the farmer provided the animals with a
| good life, as I know most of them personally. Or it's a
| wild animal, running through the forest until the last
| moments. Not practical for everybody, and pretty pricey,
| but avoids the worst.
|
| As you see, suffering is key here. The mere act of taking a
| life is "natural". (A bolt through the brain is quick and
| less painful than the long hunt by a pack of wolves or a
| lion.) It's still a kill, but that's the balance I'm
| striking personally.
| Bayart wrote:
| HN is not, last time I've checked, a vegan outlet. Plenty
| of us are completely fine with breading, killing, eating
| animals.
| BirAdam wrote:
| I mean... yes, but the order there is hilarious.
|
| Personally it would be killing, breading, and eating.
| kelnos wrote:
| I assume they meant "breeding".
| TomSwirly wrote:
| Foie gras is unbelievably cruel, even by meatist
| standards.
| Bayart wrote:
| So what ? Even if it were ten times more cruel I wouldn't
| think twice about bursting my belly with it for
| Christmas. They're just geese, not people.
| mechanical_bear wrote:
| I'll be serving it up for sure. I probably will not even
| think of the goose while eating it, or if I do, it'll be
| to toast the animal. Lol
| jibe wrote:
| _breading and killing animals_
|
| Sounds like a new process to make fried chicken.
| msrenee wrote:
| There are people producing foie gras nowadays without
| force-feeding the animals. I don't know if that's what the
| shop linked above sells or not. There are humane ways of
| producing it, though unfortunately I think the majority is
| still made by force-feeding.
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/08/01/487088946/t
| h...
| Damogran6 wrote:
| Having had foie gras in a previous time, the food is
| regretfully an amazing experience.
|
| It's also the reason I expect Tuna's days are numbered.
| Slava_Propanei wrote:
| Personally, I only bread animals after they are dead, and
| never before.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _I 'm French and I live in France. Here, most of our truffles
| are real truffle._
|
| In Michelin star restaurants maybe. Else, you'd be surprised...
| tarsinge wrote:
| What's sad is even if you get some real truffle
| (grated/chips...) customers expect a stronger taste so it's
| mixed with oil with synthetic aroma. In the Perigord region
| there are controlled open markets I visited, a 20g truffle
| for like 2 persons costs around 15EUR.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| In very vast territories of Western Europe, coldtea, direct
| providers such as restaurateurs still work through
| reputation.
|
| You'd stop working if the clientele saw you are not
| trustworthy.
|
| Edit:
|
| What you will see in the frontpage of the "Truffle Dogs
| University" in Roddi -
| http://www.universitadeicanidatartufo.it/prodotti.htm - is
| relevant: you will see the picture of a guy in front of the
| products. He "puts his face on it" - that is his reputation
| at implicit stake -, and he is proud. That is the normal
| standard. Also notice one important thing: <<Available for
| /small/ shipments>> - the goods are in limited quantity (fake
| ones could be produced ad libitum).
| sdeframond wrote:
| I am French and I live in France.
|
| For some time now I have been wondering why the little pieces
| of truffle were tasteless when the dishe as a whole smelled so
| strong.
|
| Now I know.
| riffraff wrote:
| I am Italian, and went for truffles a few times as my grand-
| uncle used to. We got both tuber melanosporum and tuber
| aestivum, it was fun.
|
| In my experience in Italy, I would say you usually get real
| truffle outside of scammy tourist places, but it is generally
| unspecified on the menu. AKA, you are getting the cheap one
| rather than the expensive one, unless the menu says the
| opposite.
| stephencanon wrote:
| I would go further and say unless you see it prepared at the
| table, you are getting the cheap one, essentially anywhere.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| I believe that in France the common complaint is that cheap
| truffles are actually a different species from Yunnan, China.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| Italy has the same issue with pine nuts. Most are Chinese and
| nowhere near as nice as the real deal.
| tptacek wrote:
| I won't buy pine nuts anymore, since I'll never know their
| provenance, and I got pine nut mouth once from a batch from
| Whole Foods. Pine nut mouth is not fun.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| You wrote: <<the real deal>>
|
| I Googled about pine nuts. Here is what Wiki says:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_nut
| According to the Food and Agriculture Organization, only 29
| species provide edible nuts, while 20 are traded locally or
| internationally
|
| Right there: The term "pine nut" is generic. Probably, the
| "Italian" ones that you like are a particular species. Are
| you _really_ sure they are Italian, or actually grown in a
| neighboring country, then through the magic of "last step
| processing" imported and repackaged as "Italian"? Italy is
| famous for it in international trade. And, the "Chinese"
| ones (it is a massive country after all -- same size as
| EU?) are a different species -- perhaps less tasty. My
| guess: Pine nuts are very labor intensive. As a result,
| imported pine nuts from developing countries are much
| cheaper than those from developed Italy.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| They _have_ gotten expensive, so now when I make pesto at
| home, I just use walnuts.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| In Italy (And Southern France and Spain), most likely
| nuts from Mediterranean stone pines, _Pinus Pinea_ [1].
| In French it 's called "pin pignon", which means (pine)
| nuts pine. I don't think these pine trees exist in China,
| although some areas do have a lot of pine trees. Maybe
| those Chinese pine nuts are from _Pinus koraiensis_ [2]
| or _Pinus armandii_ [3] as the nuts look reasonably
| similar.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_pine
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_koraiensis
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_armandii
| zwaps wrote:
| Well real or not, the pine nut from the stone pine is
| vastly superior in flavor and aroma to the Chinese
| imports, which is where the comparison to the truffle
| comes from.
|
| Pine nuts from the stone pine are really expensive.
| Although, in this case, it's rather easy to notice the
| difference.
| OJFord wrote:
| That's the T. _aestivum_ GP mentioned.
|
| (Edit: no it's not, it's _indicum_ , see below. In the OP,
| the former is described as very mild but somewhat prized; the
| latter as tasteless, cheap, used for appearance (& perhaps in
| combination with synthetic flavouring) only.)
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Not sure. Wikipedia says that T. _aestivum_ is from Europe
| and also known as Burgundy truffle [1].
|
| I suspect that the Chinese truffles are T. _indicum_ or
| perhaps T. _himalayense_ [2].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber_aestivum
|
| [2]
| https://www.trufamania.com/Tuber%20indicum%20English.htm
| vitus wrote:
| The article notes T. indicum as the cheap scam.
|
| > There is also the notorious tuber indicum, the Chinese
| black truffle, which has flooded the European and
| American market. It has no taste or smell, and its price
| starts at less than ten euros per kilo. Visually, it does
| not differ much from the black winter truffle, and it
| will often be falsely presented as such, although the
| flavor and the aroma do not resemble in any way.
|
| > This truffle also has a derogatory nickname: potatoes -
| because the price and taste do not differ much from those
| of potatoes. If you get a truffle with a dark core during
| summer, it is also a scam.
| OJFord wrote:
| Oh yes, sorry, I was commenting having read that (not
| prior expertise) and misremembered/associated above.
| bambax wrote:
| Yeah I'm French too and second that. But also, I wasn't aware
| before reading this article that there was such a hype around
| truffles in the rest of the world? Why is everyone offering
| truffle-this and truffle-that? In France in my experience
| truffle dishes are quite rare and done in specialized
| restaurants. There are certainly counter-examples, but I don't
| think you can find many truffle-flavored pizzas in Paris for
| example.
| [deleted]
| acdha wrote:
| American food has historically been focused on being cheap
| and filling (this isn't new: you can find 18th century
| British tourists complaining about how the colonies mostly
| had overcooked flavorless meat) and for a long time somewhat
| industrial in focus (large scale distribution of bland
| things).
|
| That started to change in the 1970s and 80s but that still
| tended to be focused on specific ingredients (which have
| producers advertising them heavily) with the same expectation
| that they're available year round everywhere. There were
| whole campaigns promoting things like Angus beef as a premium
| ingredient rather than the more easily produced but less
| flavorful breed it actually is.
|
| Truffle derivatives fit well into that: toss some "truffle
| salt" or oil onto the same hamburger or French fries you were
| serving last week and it's now $10 more expensive. The
| truffle products don't need to be local or in season, so
| anyone can do that. Plus since the flavor change is quite
| modest most of your customers will consider buying it.
| lisper wrote:
| > you can find 18th century British tourists complaining
| about how the colonies mostly had overcooked flavorless
| meat
|
| Wow, because the Brits are not exactly known for their
| haute cuisine.
| acdha wrote:
| My understanding is that this impression is heavily
| colored by WWII-era shortages, and also the difference
| between country and urban availability of fresh
| ingredients before then.
| baby wrote:
| It's really weird. But truffle stuff outside of France mostly
| comes from truffle oil which is really intense in flavor
| (personally I like it), much different from truffle dishes
| you can get in high end restaurants in France (which
| personally I like, but isn't the crazy flavor people seem to
| think it is, I even got the VGE soup at Bocuse and it's Ok
| guys)
| johncoltrane wrote:
| The quality and price vary a lot, from a simple white base
| with truffle-flavored oil poured on top to slices of actual
| truffle, but truffle-flavored pizzas are on the menu of lots
| of restaurants in Paris.
| jinto36 wrote:
| In the US I can go to the supermarket and get "truffle
| macaroni and cheese" in a box for $5, because everyone knows
| that truffles are this rare, mysterious, and luxurious thing,
| and so incorporating them (or their essence) into relatively
| inexpensive food items allows companies to tack a small
| amount onto the price, but gives the consumers the feeling
| that even this luxurious thing is available to them.
|
| Similar to why people might knowingly buy knock-off
| "designer" items.
| rayiner wrote:
| I don't think I've ever seen the difference between France
| and America distilled to its very essence like these two
| posts.
| deepsun wrote:
| I don't think anyone falls for that, everyone knows they
| cannot buy a truffle for $5. They buy it for the taste,
| wherever it comes from (e.g. crude oil) and that's ok.
| rayiner wrote:
| I certainly thought that it was truffle infused extract
| or something.
| CPLX wrote:
| I mean the other reason is that people enjoy eating this
| stuff.
|
| I have truffle oil and truffle honey around the house.
| They're useful ingredients.
|
| I'm not sure what's in truffle honey but it's AMAZING with
| Camembert and other similar very soft cheeses so there's
| that.
| forty wrote:
| haha and I guess the camembert you have with your fake
| truffle is also fake camembert ^^ (I live in France and
| even here a lot of camembert in supermarkets are
| tasteless industrial crap made with pasterised milk, so
| I'd imagine in the rest of the world it must be pretty
| bad...)
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Yep. There's a reason my neighbor's dog is named Truffle
| and I'm willing to bet it's the same reason she has Gucci
| handbags and drives a Porsche.
| mmmpop wrote:
| I dunno (nor care) about the quality of a Gucci handbag
| but the Porsche is actually a high-end car, so while
| there very much is "status" associated, at least you're
| getting something cool/fun as hell at the same time.
| antonvs wrote:
| > There's a reason my neighbor's dog is named Truffle
|
| It's tasty when grated over a pasta dish?
| [deleted]
| bambax wrote:
| > _I can go to the supermarket and get "truffle macaroni
| and cheese" in a box for $5, because everyone knows that
| truffles are this rare, mysterious, and luxurious thing_
|
| I'm sorry and I'm not picking on you or trying to be smart,
| but this doesn't make sense: anything you buy for $5 in a
| supermarket is neither rare nor luxurious, by definition.
| Why do people fall for this.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Because it actually does have an unusual taste--the added
| aroma--which many people like. So smelling is believing.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| Fresh in-season produce direct from a high-quality local
| farm can definitely be rare and luxurious even if it's
| sold in a supermarket for $5. This is especially true of
| things that are only in season for a few weeks and are
| from a farm small enough to only sell to supermarkets
| within a few miles.
|
| These things may seem commonplace locally, but to people
| on the other side of the country these "cheap" things can
| be a rare luxury.
| arcticfox wrote:
| I think people but it because they like the taste, not
| because they think it's an actually luxurious $5 box
|
| I didn't realize that truffle oil doesn't come from
| truffles, so TIL as well. I don't really like the flavor
| anyways but it is certainly unique.
| rtlfe wrote:
| > anything you buy for $5 in a supermarket is neither
| rare nor luxurious
|
| When it's sitting next to a $0.89 box of Kraft macaroni,
| the $5.00 box definitely feels like a luxury.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| It is all marketing. The US has been about 'lifestyle'
| brands for a while. The US wants to sell you an upscale
| experience, whether it is really upscale or not. Things
| with truffle flavor seem to be a fad at the moment.
|
| Think about Starbucks. You don't need a $7 coffee drink,
| but its sweet and tasty, maybe you like the homey
| atmosphere and fake friendliness from the staff, maybe
| you like using the fancy names, maybe you like being seen
| with your Starbucks cup, all because you too can afford a
| luxury lifestyle. Its all marketing to sell you
| overpriced coffee and milk.
|
| I much prefer the abundance of smaller privately owned
| shops you tend to find in Europe over the factory made
| franchise options you see all over the US. Most Americans
| seem to have no idea.
| woobar wrote:
| Not sure why are you singling out US here. People all
| over the world like "ecsotic foreign" stuff and pay
| premium for it. Starbucks has 2000+ stores in Europe
| despite having a lot of smaller (and sometimes shittier)
| smaller shops. Same as in US.
|
| The truffle flavor is no different from the fake "college
| t-shirts"[1] that big pseudo-american chains like
| NewYorker[2] sell all over the Europe.
|
| [1] https://www.newyorker.de/products/#/detail/05.03.105.
| 0679/00...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yorker_(clothing)
| WalterBright wrote:
| > The US wants to sell you an upscale experience, whether
| it is really upscale or not.
|
| Oh phooey. Ferraris are Italian.
| mbesto wrote:
| > $5 in a supermarket is neither rare nor luxurious, by
| definition
|
| Nor is buying a Lexus (by Ferrari's standards) since its
| essentially just a Toyota with a nicer interior and more
| gadgets.
|
| People are dumb.
| wruza wrote:
| It seems like you're putting additional meaning into
| luxury beyond "much more money and looks like that".
| There is no inherent value for that extra, afaic.
| discreteevent wrote:
| The price of a Lexus is nowhere near that of a Ferrari. A
| Mercedes is also essentially a Toyota with nicer interior
| and more gadgets - if you want to put it that way.
| mbesto wrote:
| > The price of a Lexus is nowhere near that of a Ferrari.
|
| This is exactly my point. Lexus is sold as a "luxury"
| car.
|
| > A Mercedes is also essentially a Toyota with nicer
| interior and more gadgets - if you want to put it that
| way.
|
| You missed the point - which is Toyota and Lexus share
| the same owner and are _literally_ the same platform of a
| car: https://www.quora.com/Which-Toyota-model-is-the-
| same-as-a-Le...
| hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
| Lexus is Toyota's luxury brand, so the two have a fair
| amount of similarity. The connection to Mercedes is far
| more tenuous.
| cies wrote:
| Because it adds an expensive swing to your otherwise bland
| product. And that without actually putting real truffles in
| it: a great marketing ploy.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Counterpoint: grocery stores in Paris regularly sell
| synthetic truffle flavored potato chips.
|
| Speaking as an American who lived in France for several years
| in many different cities both metropolitan et d'outre-mer,
| from Paris to Entre-Deux and everywhere in-between, I can
| tell you that a lot of how French people feel about food in
| their own country stems largely from aspect blindness, and a
| lot of how Americans feel about food in France stems largely
| from never actually living there. France has the same flavors
| and foods available as everywhere else in roughly the same
| proportion if you spend the time looking.
|
| There are differences of course. The US has many more
| different varieties of every kind of produce. In Paris you
| find "an apple" or "a lettuce", while in the US you have to
| choose between 10 different varieties side-by-side. On the
| flip side, France has many more varieties of pureed pork
| generally available.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| People should do more thinking with their taste buds and less
| with what they hear. If they enjoy this truffle oil made from
| gasoline, why not eat it. Otherwise leave it be.
|
| This morning I had an expensive artisan craft coffee. I've never
| been able to taste the difference, so I'm not going to act like
| it was something extraordinary. Atmosphere was nice though.
| StingyJelly wrote:
| Exactly. I like artificial truffle flavor and use it sometimes
| in my cooking. No way would I pay for truffles. There's no gas-
| like aroma and I don't know what the author is going on about
| in that regard. I've had a meal with real truffle once and I
| must say that the artificial flavor does a pretty good job.
|
| Restaurants being dishonest are maybe problem for honest ones
| next-door, but if the customer is happy I see no harm done.
| Kbelicius wrote:
| You don't see any harm done by lying to customers?
| jacob019 wrote:
| Truffle fries don't contain truffles. French fries don't
| come from france. I don't think the restaurant is to blame
| for our language. You want every restaurant to start
| calling them immitation truffle fries?
| Jiro wrote:
| >French fries don't come from france.
|
| According to Wikipedia, it's at least believed by some
| researchers that French fries originated in France.
|
| Unless you mean "these specific fries don't come from
| France, any more than these specific fries contain
| truffles".
| Kbelicius wrote:
| Sure, why not.
| yunwal wrote:
| It's nice to be able to attribute noticeable differences to a
| reason so you can learn. Maybe you don't notice much difference
| with coffee (I'm with you there as long as it's well
| extracted), but if you've been to a nice restaurant and notice
| the Caesar salad tastes better than at Olive Garden despite
| having the same ingredients listed on the menu, it's helpful to
| understand that the kitchen sources the ingredients daily from
| a local farm.
| TomSwirly wrote:
| > People should do more thinking with their taste buds
|
| This is meaningless.
|
| If I buy a product that claims to contain X ingredient, the
| manufacturer has a moral, ethical, _and legal_ responsibility
| to give me that ingredient.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| I love coffee, and most of the time I go to specialty coffee
| shops just because they know the basics of making coffee: not
| heat up the milk more than necessary, and the coffee beans
| shouldn't be burned too much (which is necessary for the worst
| part of the coffee beans).
|
| Sadly most of the coffee shops don't even try to achieve these
| two things.
| SantalBlush wrote:
| That's not the point. The point is that calling it truffle oil
| is intentionally deceptive. Call the fake truffle oil something
| else, then see how many people still want to buy it.
| williamdclt wrote:
| > If they enjoy this truffle oil made from gasoline, why not
| eat it
|
| The article does say that, but makes the (valid) point that
| it's not okay to sell it pretending that it's "the real stuff"
| with a corresponding price tag.
|
| What I'm curious about is that the author seems to suggest
| these artificial flavouring are unhealthy ("causing long-term
| damage to [...] your stomach and palate") but doesn't say why.
| permo-w wrote:
| the author also says that the chemical is actually found in
| truffles
| newsclues wrote:
| If you ask for a glass of water and a waiter gives you a
| glass of urine, do you smile and drink it because urine
| also has H2O in it and therefore has the same chemical
| found in water?
| hgsgm wrote:
| permo-w wrote:
| how is this relevant?
| Biganon wrote:
| That's literally the OPPOSITE of what's happening with
| truffles, though.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| This is literally how all "natural flavor" works.
|
| They analyze the real thing for what makes it smell or
| taste like it does. Then they take one or a few major
| molecules that make up the taste and that are easy to
| derive cheaply from something else and use it for flavoring
| stuff. The real thing probably had a hundred different
| things make up its smell and taste.
|
| Bonus points if it can be derived from something that
| allows them to label it as "natural". Lots of natural
| flavor is produced by molds/funghi actually that have been
| modified to produce the molecules needed. Example:
| https://cen.acs.org/food/food-science/Edible-fungus-
| yields-n...
|
| Case in point I just recently read here on HN I believe
| that banana flavored stuff still tastes like the old
| bananas that we can no longer buy because that variety is
| no longer possible to grow. The molecules they extracted
| from that aren't in the bananas variety we can currently
| buy.
|
| Anecdote: we did this in our high school chemistry class w/
| pineapple flavour, i.e. we created artificial pineapple
| flavouring right there in class. It was very strong and not
| as complex as a real pineapple, but identifiable.
| riffraff wrote:
| > like the old bananas that we can no longer buy because
| that variety is no longer possible to grow.
|
| that would be the Gros Michel. It is a common
| misconception that it no longer exists, but you can you
| actually still buy it (and grow it), you will find many
| results in google. It's just been replaced in the mass
| market.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| Thanks! In case anyone else is interested: https://en.wik
| ipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana#Early_popul...
|
| So I should have written: that you can no longer buy in
| the supermarket down the street :)
| permo-w wrote:
| TLDR: it was made economically unsustainable to grow
| because of something called Panama Disease, which Gros
| Michel is susceptible to, where modern bananas are not
| Nursie wrote:
| It's on my list to try one day, and see if it's as good
| as the hype.
|
| It's one of my life's entertaining side-missions to try
| as many types as possible, ever since I found out that
| "the (cavendish) banana" is not the end of the story.
|
| I've ticked off Cavendish (of course), dwarf cavendish,
| lady finger, apple banana, Pisang Awak, red Dacca, Fe'i
| and various plantains so far. Many more to go!
| headsoup wrote:
| Hence we have https://www.jellybelly.com/jelly-belly-
| bean-recipes
|
| I certainly would laugh if I went into a restaurant and
| on top of my 'truffle-infused' Lamb Ragu was a gently
| placed Truffle Jellybean.
| JohnFen wrote:
| The chemical used for artificial vanilla is found in real
| vanilla, but the artificial and real vanilla are rather
| different from each other. I can roll with either, but if
| I'm paying real vanilla prices for vanillin, I've been
| ripped off.
| Vespasian wrote:
| It think the difference lies in valuing the process or the
| result.
|
| Personally I think like you, if the product tastes good and the
| atmosphere is fine for the advertised price I'm 100% satisfied.
|
| If the restaurant manages to achieve that with cheaper
| ingredients (while maintaining hygiene and not outright lying)
| I consider that a good business practice.
| II2II wrote:
| > and not outright lying
|
| But what is constitutes outright lying? Some would assume
| that the word "truffles" on its own means the genuine
| article. Others would say they are telling the truth if they
| state that it is not the real thing in the small print. It
| wouldn't surprise me if someone tried to trademark Real
| Truffles for their substitute. All would claim that they are
| telling the truth, never mind deny they are not outright
| lying. Technically, they are correct.
|
| Deception is not a good business practice, even in the
| slightest. It is the sign of someone who is solely interested
| in short term gain, rather than establishing a lasting
| institution.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _People should do more thinking with their taste buds and
| less with what they hear._
|
| First people should not be lied to by restaurants and the food
| industry, and prices should not be jacked up selling crap as
| premium...
|
| Then they can decide freely if they like gasoline-derived oil
| for what it is itself...
| pnt12 wrote:
| Completely agree with you.
|
| It reminds me that in the USA there are rules for what
| constitutes a bourbon whiskey. You can make and enjoy other
| types of whiskey, just don't call them Bourbon.
|
| There's also Jack Daniel's, from what I remember they
| actually pass the requirements to be a Bourbon, but the
| company chooses not to label it that way. That's also fine!
|
| What wouldn't be fine is a whiskey calling itself rum or
| vodka, because when I buy one I don't expect to get the
| other.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| But this is something that's really difficult to regulate. A
| good example is that wine brewed from natural yeasts that
| smells like horseshit. It was branded as "barnyard".
| threatofrain wrote:
| > But this is something that's really difficult to
| regulate. A good example is that wine brewed from natural
| yeasts that smells like horseshit. It was branded as
| "barnyard".
|
| How does that make things hard to regulate?
| noasaservice wrote:
| Another such 'flavor' is boxwood. That description is
| what cat piss smells like.
|
| If you see a fine wine with 'hint of boxwood', run.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Or a rich potent wine with the sweet distinctive scent of
| Linden tree.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqlYGuZGVM
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| "Selling crap as premium" is hard to regulate. Yes, you
| can put laws in place to say what is allowed to be called
| truffles etc., but it will be hard to stop people from
| selling what is technically a truffle as a premium
| truffle. I.e., selling crap as premium.
| danaris wrote:
| All we have to do to get the people selling petroleum-
| derived oil as a truffle is require good-faith truth in
| advertising.
|
| Now, catching people selling a cheaper truffle as a more
| expensive truffle may require more educated customers.
| threatofrain wrote:
| The issue here isn't whether a wine company can
| creatively brand smelly wine as "barnyard". Before we
| even deal with the question of how do we grade products,
| we first have to ask whether companies should be able to
| simply lie to customers about whether listed ingredients
| are even present.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| That is definitely true, I got a bit side tracked there
| to be honest. However, those laws already exist in the
| EU, so the article could probably be summarized as
| "truffles should be protected".
| bostik wrote:
| There's also the funny angle that some real "premium"
| stuff is actually awful crap, or at least an utterly
| crappy experience.
|
| Years ago, I bought some _very_ pungent blue cheese, must
| have been either from SW France or NE Spain. Definitely
| not a household name, and priced quite high. One of the
| worst eating experiences I can remember. The flavour was
| so strong a small crumb was enough to burn your
| tastebuds. Almost painful to eat, and we had to toss the
| thing out.
|
| It smelled really good, though. I learned my lesson.
| These days I refuse to buy any unfamiliar cheese I can't
| sample in the shop first.
| jet_32951 wrote:
| That is due to a species of yeast called Brettanomyces,
| usually shortened to brett. Judicious use of brett can
| impart smoky or leathery characteristics - lumped together
| politely as "barnyard" or "horse blanket" notes in beer or
| wine.
| petre wrote:
| The wine industry is pretty well regulated in the EU. In my
| country wine was generally a hit and miss before we got
| into the EU. Now, almost everything bottled over 5EUR is
| okay and also cheaper wine sold in bulk. This year we've
| bought some excellent white wine by the bulk directly from
| the producer and it was cheaper than gasoline. I mostly buy
| local bottled wine rather than imported table wine sold as
| premium. Why? Because I know most of the big producers and
| also some of the smaller ones.
|
| If we go to another country with good wines, we ask the
| waiter and it works out better than looking at the wine
| menu and making assumptions. One waiter in Sicily even
| suggested that he chose the wine for us and we were very
| satisfied with his choice after we also tried to get the
| same wine ourselves and ordered something different.
|
| Also, Moldova used to export crappy sweet wine before their
| agricultural products were banned in Russia. Now it exports
| mainly into the EU and they have some good quality wines if
| you skip the ones made from hybrid grape varieties, which I
| wonder why I've even found on the EU market. Must be the
| new 2021 regulation allowing hybrid varieties in wines with
| protected denominations of origin. Apart from the usual
| varieties, they also produce wines with a Georgian variety
| called Saperavi, which I like quite a lot and also a local
| older variety called Rara Neagra which is popular but I
| don't like because it's acidic, however it can be
| sucessfully used in blends where one needs more acidity.
| strken wrote:
| Yeah. I deliberately buy imitation truffle oil made from mixing
| whatever-pentane into cheap refined olive oil with full
| knowledge that it's fake. I also buy fake saffron, fake maple
| syrup, and fake vanilla essence.
|
| With all these foods the real thing is better, but the
| substitute is also fine.
| msrenee wrote:
| I don't know if aunt jemima and similar brands of syrup count
| as "fake Maple syrup". It doesn't say maple syrup on the
| bottle anymore. They usually say "maple-flavored syrup" at
| worst, or just "syrup". It's not maple syrup, but it's not
| labeled as maple syrup and not advertised as maple syrup.
|
| Imitation vanilla is labeled imitation vanilla. Not a secret
| that it's not made from actual vanilla.
|
| I'm surprised honey hasn't come up here more. The majority of
| honey in the US contains very little actual honey, but the
| ingredients list just says "pure filtered honey". If you've
| ever had real honey, it's night and day. If you want a
| cheaper honey substitute, that's fine. If a company is
| labeling a cheaper honey substitute as "pure filtered honey",
| that's not fine.
| tptacek wrote:
| I get honey from jars at the grocery store and, every once
| in awhile, from a local farm who supplies my local butcher
| shop (because I'm lazy, at the butcher, and realize I'm out
| of honey). The local farm honey is definitely real honey
| (the butcher shop people have been to the farm). Apart from
| the floral quality of the farm honey, I've never noticed a
| difference from the orange or blossom honey I get at the
| supermarket. I don't think most supermarket honey is fake.
| Maybe the bear honey is?
| msrenee wrote:
| Until recently, the bear honey was basically all you
| could get at the grocery store. Now you can get some real
| stuff as well.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| If it says honey on the jar and there is no ingredients
| list or the ingredients list says it's honey, then it is
| honey (unless the producer is just absolutely breaking
| the label laws).
|
| That said, you should be able to _easily_ distinguish
| different varieties of honey or even different sources of
| honey by tasting it. If you can't then it's likely a big
| commodity blend.
|
| Go do a blind from a producer that lists the hive
| locations for the honey. It's probably the product that
| has the most obvious "terroir" effect that I know of. I
| can tell the difference between honey from hives that are
| less than 2 miles apart (Woodlawn vs Englewood in
| Chicago).
| yunwal wrote:
| Fake saffron is the only thing I'll disagree with here. It's
| nothing like the real thing, and since most of the coloring
| in fake saffron comes from turmeric anyway, might as well use
| turmeric (and maybe something floral like rose water) as a
| substitute when you don't want to splurge for the real thing.
| yonaguska wrote:
| Sadly, I've met people that actually enjoy fake maple syrup
| more than the real stuff. To the point of actually disliking
| real maple syrup because "it doesn't taste like the thing"
| that they'd been eating since childhood.
| samatman wrote:
| Ever since I found out that the main artificial maple-syrup
| flavor is a fenugreek derivative, I think of it as
| fenugreek syrup.
|
| Never liked it, but now I like it less. And I like
| fenugreek.
| blowski wrote:
| How very post-modern. Jean Baudrillard would have been
| delighted.
| strken wrote:
| That's not sad, that's great! They're paying less than you
| for an equivalent level of enjoyment, so good for them.
| yonaguska wrote:
| Great point. It still makes me sad because I've
| unscientifically concluded that maple flavored corn syrup
| is unequivocally much worse for your health, on the basis
| that I want to justify still eating maple syrup and
| choose to believe that it's actually not the worst thing
| I could be eating, so it's ok to have it. This same
| unfounded belief has helped me curb my sweet tooth, as I
| no longer order pancakes or french toast, anytime I eat
| out, working at a fancier restaurant showed me that they
| all mostly use the exact same several gallon jugs of
| maple flavored syrup.
| hgsgm wrote:
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Yeah, this is how I feel.
|
| Truffle oil is kinda like that artificial grape flavor. It's
| clearly not the real thing if you've tasted both. But if you're
| honest, that fake grape in a Fanta or whatever is tasty in its
| own way.
|
| Similarly there's a burger joint near me that does truffle oil
| fries with the synthetic flavor. They aren't priced like it's
| some luxury thing either, they're just the standard fries at
| the price you'd expect. They're tasty. I don't see the point of
| being all huffy about it.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Yeah artificial banana is actually pretty good. I do like
| bananas and the synthetic stuff is nothing like the real
| thing.
|
| I do like to think that sim-flavors will eventually get their
| own seat at the taste at the table but there is still
| correlation between interest in the prototype taste and the
| sims.
|
| However I do like organic raspberry for example, synth
| raspberry is meh.
| Ptchd wrote:
| That doesn't work, it's called fraud and can be dangerous in
| some cases... For example, restaurants do that a lot with fish
| too and sometimes they serve you an alternative that is much
| more likely to contain heavy metals.
|
| Even in grocery stores you can't be sure what kind of fish you
| buy.
|
| https://www.grocerydive.com/news/restaurants-grocery-stores-...
| choward wrote:
| The amount of people who are okay with being lied to by
| corporations is very concerning.
| airbreather wrote:
| I used to grow my own in Australia, as a hobby, patience is the
| hardest part really. 5-7 years after planting seems to be needed.
|
| At one stage I was the northern most producer of truffles (very
| few produced actually but I only had 40 trees and didn't really
| look after them to the utmost detail) in the southern hemisphere,
| then a guy 150km further north, and in soil that was near total
| sand, got some to grow. This was totally unexpected.
|
| It seems the conditions required are not quite so special as
| thought, and some totally unsuited conditions (as previously
| thought) might be good due to reduced competition from other
| fungi.
|
| The action of inoculating trees is simple as well, get a ripe
| couple of real truffles, blender them up and pour it over the
| small saplings in pots, if the mycorrhizal sets in you can see it
| as white bits on the roots. (I think you need two, but not even
| sure on that).
|
| A wide range of trees will work, oak, hazel, cork to name a few.
| There is a preferred pH range for the soil, as would be expected
| for all fungi pH has a strong role to play.
|
| There has been a lot of secrecy enshrouding the whole game for a
| long time.
|
| I refer only to Tuber melanosporum in the above, I am not sure
| anyone has been able to get the white truffles growing out of the
| wild, there will be some special condition or symbiosis with an
| animal or something that is needed, but not understood yet.
| gtsnexp wrote:
| There is a very nice/thriving truffle scene around Canberra. I
| miss it!
| baby wrote:
| For anyone that hasn't watched it, there's a documentary on
| netflix about the cartel of maple syrup. Turns out maple syrup
| is expensive for different reasons
| jeromegv wrote:
| The maple syrup cartel is only for quebec, so while it does
| influence the price to some extent, producers in Vermont and
| Ontario are in no way required to match the price.
|
| It's expensive because you need a huge amount of land, it
| only produces for a few weeks, and you can have years with
| almost no production. The cartel was created to protect
| producers against those huge variation of supply from years
| to years.
| stephencanon wrote:
| Yeah. We make our own from the trees at our house, and it's
| appallingly intensive in time, labor, and land. Obviously
| there are economies of scale, but it's much, much worse
| than any other form of hobby farming I do. But the two
| gallons or so we make a year are great fun for the kids,
| and what else are you going to do in March?
| deebosong wrote:
| "There has been a lot of secrecy enshrouding the whole game for
| a long time."
|
| Now I'm imagining a Truffle Mafia/ Mushroom Cartel, with
| mushroom goon squads, fungi warehouses, and done up in gaudy
| suits & ostentatious furs.
| rcpt wrote:
| This kind of happens in Pig with Nicholas Cage
| slindz wrote:
| They touched on such ideas in Nic Cage's movie 'Pig'.
|
| It was a surprisingly decent flick.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| It was quite good. It also kind of skewered the Portland
| foodie scene. Loved the ending.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Super Mario Bros was based on this, I think.
| aaron_m04 wrote:
| Interesting! What part of Australia are you in?
| atemerev wrote:
| In France, Italy, Switzerland truffles are pretty common (usually
| summer truffles, occasionally black). You should buy these
| yourself, though; no guarantees in restaurants.
| mkl95 wrote:
| I watched a short documentary about truffles. They showed how
| truffles are analyzed with a microscope that is rendered with an
| old UI, 90s / early 2000s kind of stuff. It looked like an
| opportunity to build something more powerful.
| matthews2 wrote:
| What would the commercial value of a shinier UI be?
| breakbread wrote:
| Years ago, my wife and I were in Rome and blindly walked into
| some restaurant with "taverna" in the name. We were thinking of
| Greece and just assumed ~$$.
|
| Boy were we wrong. When we opened the menu we saw quail eggs with
| white truffles from Alba for like 1300 euros!
| boulanger75 wrote:
| Speak for you. French truffle is controlled by State and not a
| crook
| nells wrote:
| If it's controlled by the state then, by definition, it's
| controlled by a crook.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| > what is sold as truffle flavor is 2,4-dithiapentane, an
| organosulfur compound that is naturally found in truffles
|
| and
|
| > it can be extracted from oil. [...] Liters of this petroleum-
| derived product, the colorless 2,4-dithiapentane liquid, are
| sourced for a few euros...
|
| We've discussed this in chemistry classes. The compound is the
| compound. Why does it matter where it's sourced?
|
| Anyone who's heard about the rarity of Actual Truffles can reason
| out that they can't possibly be squeezing enough "truffle oil"
| from Proper Truffles to supply the world. They're obviously
| recreating _something_. So they identified the tasty (smelly?)
| chemical that identifies with Real Truffles, and source it
| elsewhere.
|
| It reminds me of the every-decade story about how Twinkies are
| made, and the myriad of scary chemicals in them. The recipe has
| changed a bit over the years (actually getting safer...) and the
| last article I read on the subject was all "OMG THEY ARE USING
| INDUSTRIAL CLEANER IN TWINKIES" then continued to have a food
| scientist explain that they discovered the Actual Food ingredient
| cleaned better than the Chemical Cleaner, so switched from
| Chemical Cleaner to Actual Food Ingredient Cleaner.
| oppositelock wrote:
| This is one chemical that is a major part of the scent and
| flavor, but there are countless others. As an analogue, citric
| acid is the main "sour" flavor in lemons, but it's not very
| representative of a lemon, is it?
| amelius wrote:
| > We've discussed this in chemistry classes. The compound is
| the compound. Why does it matter where it's sourced?
|
| Because the purity might not be 100%. There might be some
| petroleum left in the end product. Especially given that
| suppliers have a financial incentive to not care about safety
| that much.
| boudin wrote:
| You don't have to be a scientist to know that twinkies are not
| a healthy thing. Pretty much all ultra-processed food is bad
| for you, however the industrial cleaner used is claimed to be
| safe.
|
| And if you taste a real truffle you'll know that it's a much
| more complex thing that this one compound, it just doesn't
| taste the same.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| > ...twinkies are not a healthy thing.
|
| You don't have to be an English major to see that I didn't
| claim they are.
|
| > ... the industrial cleaner used is claimed to be safe.
|
| Did you miss the point that it was a food ingredient before
| it was a cleaner? Kind of like discovering (theoretically)
| that corn meal scours better than Comet - of _course_ we 'll
| switch to corn meal! No one wants Accidental Comet lunch, we
| can eliminate that purchase altogether, and we can get a
| bigger quantity discount on corn meal!
|
| > ...it's a much more complex thing that this one compound
|
| Indeed! But I'm discussing the article's specific claims
| about the smelly compound.
| thedrbrian wrote:
| Because you can't be richer than thou if you're eating or using
| the industrial chemical. It's got to be the artisanal version
|
| See H Enfield:Richer than thou
|
| https://youtu.be/U8Kum8OUTuk
| Mistletoe wrote:
| It matters because I'm sure there are other compounds in
| truffles that make the flavor well rounded and unique. The same
| way watermelon and grape and blueberry flavor in candy don't
| really taste anything at all like the real thing.
| GordonS wrote:
| Vanilla extract is another good example - sure, it tastes
| _like_ vanilla, but real vanilla is so much more complex.
| phil21 wrote:
| Absolutely. I always thought I hated truffles until I was
| more or less forced into trying a few dishes while visiting
| Italy.
|
| Real truffles taste almost nothing like the fake truffle
| flavor you seem to get in most dishes. I think you made a
| great comparison to fake watermelon flavor vs. the real
| thing. It's only in the vague ballpark.
|
| I now will have a truffle dish if it's done at a very high
| end establishment that deals with those ingredients on a
| consistent basis. I still absolutely cannot stand the fake
| stuff (like truffle fries) to this day.
| icambron wrote:
| The article definitely conflates these ideas:
|
| 1. there are real truffles that in his opinion are much
| better than the artificial flavor (fair)
|
| 2. the food industry is deceptive about real vs artificial
| truffle flavor (fair)
|
| 3. the artificial flavor is harmful because it is derived
| from petroleum (silly)
|
| The problem with the article is that 1 is interesting but
| just, like, your opinion man, and also like a thousand
| dollars. And 2 is business as usual. So if you want people
| not to just say "Sure, but I personally really like
| artificial truffle flavor" (which I did, several times, while
| reading) you need to convince them there's something sinister
| about it that there isn't about, say, artificial watermelon
| flavor. But 3 is a huge miss.
| pastage wrote:
| That no one know how truffles smells and tastes, not even
| "experts", was the important part of the article. Also
| informing on how, when and where to get and ask for real
| truffle.
|
| Artificial is bad if served as the real thing, that most
| certainly is harmful and dishonest.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| It's not silly. The petroleum derived product is probably
| loaded with carcinogens that they're failing to
| detect/filter out.
| thedrbrian wrote:
| If it's the same chemical how can it be loaded with
| carcinogens?
| bitcurious wrote:
| Water from the pond is the same as water from my tap -
| they are both H20. Kind of like that, I imagine.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Water from a pond and tap water are both heterogeneous
| mixtures of things dissolved and suspended in H2O, they
| are in fact very different. A synthesized chemical will
| be identical to the same chemical produced in a plant.
| The synthetic counterpart will just be in a mixture with
| distilled water or a neutral food grade oil.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| It's a better analogy than you think. "Petroleum" is very
| much a hydrocarbon "pond water".
|
| How confident can you be that the end result is filtered
| appropriately, every time?
| boudin wrote:
| The petroleum industry is pretty harmful. People caring
| about where the food they eat come from is far from being a
| silly thing.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| The wikipedia article on dithiapentane is amusing:
|
| > "2,4-Dithiapentane is the dimethyldithioacetal of
| formaldehyde. It is prepared by the acid-catalyzed
| condensation of methyl mercaptan, (the main aromatic
| compound in both halitosis and foot odor and a secondary
| compound in flatulence), with formaldehyde."
|
| The issues with such synthesis or extraction from petroleum
| largely revolve around purity; I notice that online sellers
| describe a '99% pure' product, but what's in that other 1%?
| Sloppy cheap synthesis produces potentially harmdful side
| products.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| I don't think the fake fruit flavors are based on the same
| compounds found in the actual fruit. I'm pretty sure it's a
| combination of Whatever Can Be Sourced Cheaply to "emulate"
| the fruit flavor.
|
| I'll agree that an actual truffle, with all the fabulous
| fungus intact, is going to give a completely different
| experience.
|
| But if the claim is that the truffle-extracted compound is
| somehow different from the oil-extracted compound, that's a
| lie equivalent to claiming Real Truffles are flavoring your
| truffle fries.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Strawberries and oranges seem the most obvious offenders.
|
| Red and orange taste just isn't close.
| wokwokwok wrote:
| Outside of the simplification of class, it turns out molecules
| are actually quite complicated.
|
| Significantly more complicated than "this one single molecule
| is the flavour X, and therefore indistinguishable from an
| actual X".
|
| This reminds me of
| https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2019/09/solving-the-lo...
|
| > Greek philosopher Thales of Miletus first reported friction-
| induced static electricity in 600 B.C. After rubbing amber with
| fur, he noticed the fur attracted dust.
|
| > "Since then, it has become clear that rubbing induces static
| charging in all insulators -- not just fur," Marks said.
| "However, this is more or less where the scientific consensus
| ended."
|
| Of course, you get taught in class that when you rub things
| together you pull free electrons off one and that magically
| makes static electricity.
|
| ...of course, that's a gross simplification and also wrong
| (read the article).
|
| Ie. it's a fair suggestion that what you learnt in class was
| not domain specific to taste and organic chemistry; and, wrong.
|
| Pure chemical flavours are not equivalent to natural
| equivalents, because they are:
|
| - not chemically equivalent (the natural product is a mixture
| of many molecules)
|
| - probably not chemically pure (since they're cheap ass
| imports)
|
| - probably contain contaminants from the chemical process they
| were produced by, if they have obvious (eg. a smell)
| differences from the natural product.
|
| So... yes, a chemical, in its pure form is just a chemical, no
| matter where it comes from.
|
| ...but that's an ideal, not reflected, most likely _either_ the
| source natural ingredient, _or_ the cheap ass petroleum
| products you can buy for a few bucks / liter.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| The article author spends much time focused on this one
| chemical compound. They should have made their argument about
| the complexities of truffles versus the simplicity of
| chemical compounds.
| piskerpan wrote:
| You'd make a good point if the result was the same. It isn't.
| Truffles (or anything we eat) is not a single chemical, it's a
| dance of every molecule that creates it.
|
| I don't particularly dislike truffle-flavored products, but I
| know they're nothing like the real thing. Same exact thing goes
| for wasabi. Some "wasabi" products are just vile.
| chubot wrote:
| Are you saying there's only one chemical compound that matters
| in the taste or nutrition of truffles?
|
| What about sweet potatoes or lamb? Can they be represented by a
| chemical?
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| Nope. But that seems to be a claim in the article. And that
| the various sources of an identical chemical make for
| drastically different experiences.
|
| If the article were just "truffles are more than this one
| chemical compound, and you're being lied to about truffle
| flavoring on your fries," I would have commented differently
| (or maybe not at all.) But the article is too busy being
| elitist to make a reasonable argument like "truffles are more
| than this one chemical compound..."
| chubot wrote:
| The article doesn't claim that; it's closer to the opposite
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| Is there a taste difference between hallucinogenic truffles in NL
| and regular truffles?
| theelous3 wrote:
| They are essentially part of the root structure of psychoactive
| fungi.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclerotium
|
| Also, they are absolutely disgusting. Find someone who will
| sell you the shrooms instead :)
|
| I believe culinary truffles are more the-thing-itself, rather
| than a secondary supporting structure such as sclerotium.
| wentin wrote:
| I met someone at a french conference who told me that their
| latest foodie experience at a truffle house was that "They can't
| taste the truffle". They can see it is truffle, but it just
| doesn't taste anything they associate with truffle. I was no
| truffle expert then, and didn't have anything to add to the
| conversation, so I just shrug it off. This article reminded me of
| that conversation. Restaurants who are honest are punished by
| this scam.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Time to grow your own and search for Appalachian truffles.
|
| https://trufflefarms.com/everything-to-know-about-truffle-tr...
|
| https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/...
| epgui wrote:
| One thing that drives me nuts here is people who think chemicals
| derived from a "natural" source are somehow preferable from
| chemicals derived from petrol or synthesized de novo. The concept
| of a chemical is that you cannot possibly distinguish them.
|
| Why fake truffle oil tastes different than the prized truffles
| has nothing to do with the fact it may have been synthesized from
| oil (which is totally okay), and everything to do with the fact
| that the real deal's taste comes from a bouquet of many different
| chemicals, only part of which is represented in the cheaper
| synthetic stuff.
| [deleted]
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Truffle oil tastes good, it's not that expensive and I don't care
| if it's real
| sorokod wrote:
| "The Truffle Hunters" is a very sweet film, worth watching even
| if you are not a truffle addict.
| rwmj wrote:
| It's a great film, still available on BBC iPlayer:
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016489/storyville-th...
|
| However there was a missed opportunity to end the film on the
| brilliantly directed scene of the gourmet eating the fried eggs
| with truffles. The perfect way to end a film about gathering
| truffles.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Also "Pig" with Nicolas Cage is surprisingly good. Not very
| truffle centric though.
| Avalaxy wrote:
| And also not 'very sweet'. That movie left me thoroughly
| depressed, needing to watch a second movie right after, just
| to flush the sadness away.
| [deleted]
| ggm wrote:
| I believe truffle may be like coriander (cilantro) elucidating a
| disgust response in some people. I just cannot stand its smell,
| or taste, and avoid truffle fries and truffle oil extras.
|
| It's not about being fungi, I love other mushrooms.
|
| I love coriander. I just know some people say "soap" and wrinkle
| their noses. Well.. truffle does that to me, and I've had chunks
| of it the size of nuts in France in the early 70s, I know it
| wasn't some factory extract (it was the mayors birthday and we
| lucked into it with a local)
| ohbtvz wrote:
| > elucidating
|
| You mean eliciting?
| [deleted]
| rightbyte wrote:
| The first time I tasted coriander cake was on my friends'
| family boat. He and his mother made it and he was really proud.
|
| I spit it out over board and complained it must be full of
| dishing soap ...
| moron4hire wrote:
| I have this issue as well. What drives me nuts is how people
| think it's a _preference_ that I don 't like cilantro. No,
| I'm fundamentally having a different experience. I have no
| idea what cilantro is supposed to taste like, but "fill a
| dish full of soap" seems very unlikely to be an intentional
| choice for a cook.
|
| I've read that there is a compound in cilantro that we can
| taste that is untastable to other people. I've noticed that
| finally chopped and/or cooked cilantro is not anywhere near
| as strong. So it must be some volatile chemical. Once I was
| able to clearly identify the taste, I started noticing other
| tastes in raw vegetables that went away after fine-chopping
| and cooking. For the most part, I find raw vegetables almost
| inedible, especially things like bell peppers. But cooked up,
| they are completely fine.
|
| I also noticed that, if I try to push through eating many raw
| vegetables, I start to have an allergic reaction on my
| tongue. This is especially true for cilantro, basil, celery,
| and to a lesser extent carrots and tomatoes. Again, cooked is
| no problem.
|
| I'm my mind, they're all linked. Some uniqueness of my tongue
| genetics makes me susceptible to one or more certain
| chemicals that others can tolerate. And my tongue is trying
| to tell me it's bad for me.
| rightbyte wrote:
| > Once I was able to clearly identify the taste, I started
| noticing other tastes in raw vegetables that went away
| after fine-chopping and cooking.
|
| Ye exactly. Like licking a raw parsnip on the outside.
| Nursie wrote:
| The only actual investigation on the cilantro thing I've
| read was some years ago, I think by NPR. The guy went and
| had cilantro analysed by slow heating in a gas
| chromatograph, and while it turned out that others who
| enjoyed it could detect the negative flavour, he could not
| detect the compounds that others found appealing.
|
| Ah, here it is -
| https://www.npr.org/2008/12/26/98695984/getting-to-the-
| root-...
| code_duck wrote:
| The reaction you describe to raw but not cooked vegetables
| is probably something called "oral allergy syndrome".
| cr1895 wrote:
| Coriander cake? I assume you mean the seeds, and I didn't
| realize people had that same reaction as they do with the
| herb.
| rightbyte wrote:
| It was like a sponge cake with coriander in it. And
| chocolate on top.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| Someone I know had that, even the smell of coriander made them
| sick. But it passed after a few encounters with it and now they
| love it. I guess it varies in its constancy.
| throwaway57371 wrote:
| The funny thing is, real truffles have a bit of a gasoline smell
| to them. At least the black and white truffles in the PNW. I've
| never tried the ultra high end Italian truffles.
|
| I did truffle hunting training with my dog when we lived in the
| PNW, we found truffles multiple times. Our head trainer used to
| give the other trainers the high end Italian truffles as a
| Christmas present.
|
| Personally, I don't think truffle adds anything to a dish, the
| flavor is too strong.
| psychphysic wrote:
| I read like 60% of the article and all I know is I'm a dumb arse
| who knows nothing about anything.
|
| Why not just write simply? What are you trying to tell me instead
| of calling me a buffoon over and over.
| nnoitra wrote:
| Veen wrote:
| It is a poorly organized rant that should have been about 1000
| words shorter, but the point is one worth making. Truffle oil
| and most truffle-flavored foods have no truffles in them. They
| have an artificial truffle flavor called 2,4-dithiapentane,
| which is extracted from petroleum oil. If they do have truffle
| in them, it's cheap tasteless varieties and the flavor comes
| from the artificial truffle flavor. Most of the truffle-based
| food you buy in stores and restaurants is not really truffles.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Brilliant post. I agree 100%. That article was nothing but
| food snobbery / gate-keeping. I would love to see this guy
| doing blind-folded taste tests. I am willing to bet he would
| score worse than 50%.
|
| Regarding your excellent summary: If only there was a GPT-3
| equivalent Chrome extension to automatically do this for me!
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| > They have an artificial truffle flavor called
| 2,4-dithiapentane
|
| It's the same compound that's found in the truffle. We found
| somewhere else to extract it, but we don't make it from
| scratch.
|
| I suppose, then, truffles are just artificially flavored.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| They say it's the same, but I doubt it.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| The snooty article author says it's the same. One would
| presume that if the compound was _not_ the same, the
| author would be all over it and exclaiming that from the
| rooftops.
|
| As it stands, it's just an elitist article about the
| source of a compound that's either responsible for
| Terrific Truffles or Petroleum Pasta - author can't
| decide.
|
| edit: improve alliteration
| logicalmonster wrote:
| > What are you trying to tell me instead of calling me a
| buffoon over and over.
|
| For the little it's worth, I interpreted the author's tone as
| one of having some confidence in his understanding of the
| subject and not intending to belittle people.
|
| And he specifically said that there's no shame in not having
| good truffle knowledge as virtually the entire industry is
| lying about it.
|
| > There is no shame in not knowing that. As the best truffles
| are extremely difficult to find, most chefs and journalists are
| unaware of this. Even the "experts" hand out awards for this
| aromatized garbage with only bits of decorative truffles.
| Almost everything with the truffle label that is available in
| stores or served in restaurants is a lie and a fraud.
| Maursault wrote:
| > While some are sensational, complex, and cost ten thousand
| euros per kilo, others are merely decorative, tasteless, and
| worthless _tubers._
|
| > There is also the notorious _tuber_ indicum, the Chinese black
| truffle, which has flooded the European and American market.
|
| Maybe this is common in truffle circles, maybe it's a joke, but
| truffles _are not_ tubers, even when speaking of multiple
| species. While the word "genus" can be pluralized, actual genera
| are always singular. You would never try what the author did
| there with "Homo sapiens," which may appear plural but is always
| a singular genus species.
|
| Tubers are storage organs in some plants used to provide energy
| through winter and for growth the following season. Truffles are
| fruiting bodies of the fungus of genus Tuber. Like all genera,
| Tuber can not be pluralized and is always capitalized.
| oxfordmale wrote:
| Aroma Science Technology is widely used in the food industry,
| often out of necessity. There aren't enough strawberries in the
| world to meet the demand for strawberry flavoured ice cream. Food
| scientists identified the chemical that makes strawberry taste
| like strawberry and managed to produce it artificially. The same
| applies to truffle oil. At least in Europe it should be possible,
| other than by price, to identify if you are buying genuine
| truffle oil or truffle flavoured oil. However prepare to pay. 250
| ml (8.5 fl Oz) of truffle oil cost around $100 at Fortnum and
| Mason. I would recommend you buy from reliable sources only and
| definitely resist to urge to buy before Christmas as the market
| is flooded with truffle flavoured alternatives at the moment.
| permo-w wrote:
| I've never once tasted something "strawberry-flavoured" that
| actually tasted like a strawberry
| oxfordmale wrote:
| In they end they just extract a single chemical and not the
| entire bouquet of flavours of a natural strawberry. However,
| if you ask a small child to taste strawberry flavoured ice
| cream and identify it is flavour they will get it right more
| often than not.
|
| It is a good philosophical question, if in a 10,000 years
| people would still link the strawberry flavour with an actual
| strawberry, especially if advertising companies slowly tweak
| the image of a strawberry to look more appetising.
| OJFord wrote:
| Isn't that just by association to past experiences with
| strawberry-flavoured things?
|
| I remember even as a child saying I like the flavour of
| strawberries, but I don't like strawberry-flavoured things.
| I'd eat the fruit, but not the ice-cream.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Small children who have eaten candy will also easily
| identify banana and grape flavors, even though neither has
| much connection to the fruit today. (Artificial banana
| flavor is modeled on the Gros Michel variety, which is
| effectively extinct, and grape flavors on Concord grapes,
| which are rarely eaten these days.)
| kenneth wrote:
| Vanilla is notorious for this. Vanilla extract tastes basically
| identical to real vanilla and is fully artificial (no vanilla
| pods involved in making it). I like to make creme brulee in
| which it's a distinctive flavor. I sometimes use real vanilla
| pods, but hot damn are they expensive. Most of the time, it's
| just the extract.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Don't agree that vanilla extract is fully artificial; that
| would be vanilla flavouring. If you sell it as vanilla
| extract, I expect it to be extracted from vanilla pods.
|
| And I don't agree that even vanilla extract from pods tastes
| like vanilla pods. I don't know a way to get the flavour of
| pods without using pods.
| Semaphor wrote:
| Personally, I prefer tonka beans [0] over vanilla. Fraction
| of the price, superior flavor (for me). Illegal in the USA,
| though.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipteryx_odorata
| KingMob wrote:
| What is vanilla extract "extracted" from, then?
|
| Are you sure you're not thinking of vanilla "essence", which
| is mostly synthetic vanillin?
|
| I can definitely taste the difference between essence and
| extract. Essence is much simpler, while extract has another
| hundred vanilla compounds in it.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Fortnum & Mason is a shop that is frequented by shoppers that
| are not price-sensitive. I wouldn't take their prices as
| indicative.
| oxfordmale wrote:
| Most people wanting genuine truffle oil aren't likely to be
| price sensitive, however, you make a valid point.
| Unfortunately this time of year, before Christmas, search
| results are flooded with Christmas offers.
|
| You are likely to get much better deals if you can buy
| locally in a truffle growing region.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| There used to be a place in London's Borough Market that would
| sell you half a truffle in a jam jar for a tenner. Best gourmet
| treat I've ever bought, and as authentic as it gets.
| runj__ wrote:
| > Smell the dish before putting truffles on it and insist that
| the waiters grate them in front of you.
|
| Please don't do this, that would be obnoxious. Treat waiters with
| some level of respect.
| pyrale wrote:
| Waiters in restaurants used to serve the real deal _expect_ you
| to do this, just like sommeliers will expect you to taste the
| wine before agreeing to buying the bottle.
|
| They _want_ people to know they 're served real truffles,
| because that's what weeds out competitors cheating on products.
| jbuhbjlnjbn wrote:
| I'd say you can smell a dish unobtrusively without being in the
| waiters' faces with it.
| eafkuor wrote:
| Depends where you are. In an expensive restaurant (serving real
| truffles) this is a completely reasonable request
| mdp2021 wrote:
| You'll be pleased to know that if you went to the places
| where they do have the truffles in the ground, you do not
| need the restaurant to be <<expensive>> to be served real
| truffles. Black truffles are sliced on your "normal" ~10EUR
| dishes.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| You are misreading it completely: it is a preliminary "Do you
| slice the truffle on it? How is the dish prepared?". There
| exist perfectly appropriate ways of "<<insisting>>" ("Thank
| you, good, I would like to have it sliced in presence").
|
| You put the slices on top: they are not dishes with preliminary
| preparation (which imply mixing the ingredients). It is just
| normal to do it in presence - and definitely sensible.
| sgt101 wrote:
| The problem is not the synthetic truffle flavouring, which I
| like, but the fact that it's so expensive. Very upsetting.
| JofArnold wrote:
| Yeah. In Italy it's a different story though. We ended up with
| way too many black truffles last year than we knew what to do
| with. Helped to know the right people of course and clearly
| this hobbyist collection process doesn't scale. But for the
| locals and local restaurants they are well catered for... for a
| while.
| prvit wrote:
| > There are no white and black winter truffles out of season.
| They cannot be frozen, cooked, sterilized, packaged, or stored
|
| Is that really true? I'm not a truffle expert, but I've seen
| several suppliers offering flash frozen winter truffles.
| sendfoods wrote:
| me neither, but I can attest to the massive difference between
| _flash_ freezing and freezing from other foods. I would assume
| the same holds true here, as well: significantly less cell
| damage during flash freezing, preserving more or original
| flavor and texture.
| jakewins wrote:
| This random culinary blog seems to say it's kind of true that
| you can't preserve the original truffle through freezing, the
| process changes them. They compare it to freezing fresh bread -
| the result is safe to eat, but not the same as the original.
|
| https://blog.dibruno.com/2016/12/10/how-to-preserve-a-fresh-...
| eginhard wrote:
| Bread can be frozen with very little impact on quality.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I have never seen bread frozen without a serious impact on
| quality.
| prvit wrote:
| Bread freezes just fine, I could name you a bunch of 3
| star Michelin places serving frozen bread every day.
|
| You still want a humidity controlled oven for reheating,
| so not necessarily super convenient at home.
|
| A high-end baker I work with (https://triticum.net/)
| _only_ sells frozen bread, everything comes with
| extensive instructions for reheating.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Needing special equipment or an unusual process to
| defrost indicates that it doesn't freeze well in the
| sense most people mean, but that it can be done with
| effort.
|
| When I need to freeze bread, I don't bake the loaves
| fully first. I get them maybe 80% the way, then freeze.
| Then I can complete the bake after thawing.
|
| I get reasonably decent results that way, although you
| can still tell.
| samatman wrote:
| That's why the places which have done that to you,
| without you noticing or even suspecting, don't show it to
| you: if you _see_ it, you 'll imagine you can tell. You
| can't.
| JohnFen wrote:
| The difference is quite stark and easy to tell. Putting
| bread in the freezer results in bread that is like week-
| old stuff. It's absolutely not a trick of perception.
|
| But perhaps the effect differs according to the kind of
| bread.
| [deleted]
| JofArnold wrote:
| They definitely can be frozen. My girlfriends Italian family
| does it all the time. They start to lose flavour after a month
| or two in the freezer though and the texture is very
| conspicuously different. But absolutely good enough for slicing
| onto pasta.
| yawnxyz wrote:
| Not sure how legit this is, but Australia just had a bout of
| "truffles on everything" season in the last few months. And quite
| a few shops and markets had actual whole truffles to buy.
| Apparently they're cultivated here?
|
| https://truffleindustry.com.au/faq/
| Nursie wrote:
| Yeah there's a whole back story about bringing over inoculated
| trees and then waiting years for them to spread and be
| harvestable, IIRC
| SergeAx wrote:
| Strawberry shampoo have nothing common with real strawberry. I
| think it will be safe to bet on the same situation with banana
| chewing gum. Will we make cases out of it, or we are not
| interested because it's too cheap to be bothered about?
| alxmng wrote:
| I've never understood the popularity of truffle. If I had to rank
| mushrooms in preference of flavor, truffle isn't even top 10.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _the popularity_
|
| Rarity, luck (they are underground), uniqueness and delicacy of
| taste.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| They are expensive so therefore they must taste good.
| harha wrote:
| Truffle oil is the devil, even worse than overloading food with
| garlic or Sichuan pepper because on top of making all other
| tastes disappear for the rest of the meal, it also tastes like a
| high school chemistry project.
|
| Where I live it's in everything (what is perceived as western
| that is), especially vegetarian, mushroom pasta, Parmesan French
| fries, salad, you name it. And most of the time the meals are
| either premade or they're too inflexible to deviate just a tiny
| bit from what they offer.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Where do you live?
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Truffle-like umami flavor is also had from sesame oil, which is
| sold in even greater quantities in many Asian grocery stores.
| Reading about the chemistry of artificial truffle oil makes me
| wonder how much "sesame oil" is affected by these types of scams.
| yunwal wrote:
| You can get good quality sesame oil for like $4 a pint, so I
| doubt there'd be much incentive for a scam.
| Kiro wrote:
| tl;dr: Fake truffle tastes better than real truffle, to an extent
| that restaurants using real truffles are forced to flavor it.
| This makes connoisseurs mad while no-one else cares.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _connoisseurs_
|
| No, it is "know what you eat". "Know what you put inside you"
| kyledrake wrote:
| The solution to this is probably technology. We need the ability
| to farm truffles on a large scale, which will bring down their
| price. Until then, expecting imperfect substitutes is reasonable
| to me.
|
| I actually enjoy the taste of truffle oil (especially on fries)
| and don't like spending enormous amounts of money on food, so
| it's a pretty reasonable compromise to me. I was planning to
| order some truffles sometime and make a few things with them and
| it's entirely plausible that I will prefer the synthetic version
| to the real thing.
| paulcole wrote:
| > The solution to this is probably technology
|
| This is HN in a nutshell. When all you have is a hammer
| everything looks like a nail.
|
| Maybe this isn't even a situation that needs to be solved?
| kyledrake wrote:
| That's a straw man, there are many things I don't think
| technology can achieve.
|
| Food scarcity is one of the first, classic things human
| technology has improved through agriculture, and it's
| reasonable to think it will do the same thing to the high
| cost of truffles, and indeed the demand will incentivize
| people to try and reward those that finally succeed at it. If
| that's bad, then my question is why should truffles be
| expensive forever?
| foolfoolz wrote:
| there's a company trying to do that
|
| https://www.americantruffle.com/
| floydnoel wrote:
| Huh, TIL. I never did much enjoy the "truffle" flavored stuff,
| makes sense now. It really does smell like petroleum, I suppose
| it only makes sense if that's where they get it.
| stavros wrote:
| How does it make sense? The stuff that makes petroleum smell
| like petroleum is not that stuff, so the fact that it smells
| like it could just be a coincidence. It's never smelled like
| petroleum to me, though.
| gooseyman wrote:
| I can't help but think about whiskey's history in America.
|
| Stuff was being sold as whiskey that was anything but i.e.
| gasoline.
|
| IIRC, The bottled in bond act was passed as the first consumer
| protection act. Basically whiskey was distilled, aged in a
| government warehouse, and (upon taxes paid) was bottled with a
| bonded seal that was meant to say to consumers "this is actual
| whiskey." It also ensured the government got their taxes.
|
| I recognize consumers don't actually get to buy the whole truffle
| and would still need to trust restaurants if a similar bonding
| system were in place.
|
| But an interesting precedent of food and marketing nonsense.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottled_in_bond
| emsy wrote:
| Does this apply to the EU? I had store bought truffle oil and
| self-made truffle oil and both tasted similar, so maybe it's more
| regulated over here.
| morsch wrote:
| Absolutely. Here's a random example (Google translation). It
| has both the aroma in it and the cheap, allegedly tasteless,
| truffles in it. They have another product that purports to have
| no aroma and the most expensive truffles in it (around 1%);
| kind of hard to believe.
|
| Tartufi di Fassia Tartufata with black truffles is made in
| Italy exclusively with organic black truffles and the natural
| aroma of black truffles. This tartufata comes without any
| artificial flavors and you can taste this unadulterated and
| delicious taste with every bite.
|
| Shipping weight: 120 g per piece
|
| Ingredients:
|
| Mushrooms (Agaricus bisporus) _, extra virgin olive oil_ , 6%
| summer truffle (Tuber Aestivum vitt) _, salt, parsley_ , black
| truffle flavored preparation* (extra virgin olive oil, black
| truffle flavorings _), parsley_ , garlic*.
|
| https://www.tasteatlas.com/truffle-industry-is-a-big-scam
| jbuhbjlnjbn wrote:
| How sure are you about the purity of the 'self-made' truffle
| oil?
| emsy wrote:
| It was made by a new-age-y friend with self-salvaged
| truffles.
| HelloNurse wrote:
| Because it is made _by you_ with good oil and good truffles?
| permo-w wrote:
| I've definitely come across this kind of truffle oil in the UK,
| pre-brexit
| rapsey wrote:
| If I get something in a restaurant (in EU) that has "truffles"
| in it the taste is exactly like described in the article. Kind
| of gross and very pungent. I don't exactly go to high end
| restaurants often.
| sph wrote:
| > If you find the smell of restaurants' truffle dishes foul, it
| does not mean that you do not like truffles; it could indicate
| that you have good taste and do not like petroleum on your plate.
|
| Holy shit I'm vindicated. People never believed me when I said
| truffles smell like petrol to me, so I don't get the hype.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| You could be a so-called "supertaster":
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster
|
| It definitely tastes off for me, but I can tolerate synthetic
| tastes.
|
| My kid, however, I suspect is a supertaster and absolutely
| hates cilantro and also truffle oil.
|
| It thankfully nipped the truffle oil obsession that my wife had
| a couple of years back.
|
| Edit: That stuff is still in the refrigerator.
| Nursie wrote:
| The only evidence I can find on the cilantro thing is
| actually that people who react badly to it can't taste the
| good bit that the rest of us can. There's a 2008 NPR article
| about putting it through a gas chromatograph that's an
| interesting read.
| sph wrote:
| Yeah I hate cilantro as well, tastes like dish soap to me.
|
| I don't know if I'm a supertaster though, I've always thought
| my sense of smell and taste to be below average.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| Our sense of taste is wonderfully varied:
| https://www.bbc.com/news/health-20640337
|
| I imagine what's happening is that the signal of bitterness
| overrides any other tastes and flavors. Sort of like trying
| to listen for whispers in the midst of a concert.
|
| I enjoy coffee for example and savor it like wine at times;
| chewing and getting the aroma into my nostrils.
|
| However it took a very long time for me to get used to and
| ignore the bitter and toasted flavors to even notice the
| complex flavors in a cup of quality black coffee.
| i_am_toaster wrote:
| Article has some good information but dragged out the start. Also
| there was too much pointed bashing of the fake truffle aroma. I
| actually think this would have read more honest if the opinions
| were left out, or at least not written in a declarative tone.
| zmxz wrote:
| Agreed. The whole article could have been condensed to a
| paragraph.
| nemo44x wrote:
| A simple pasta dish with a buttery sauce and a healthy portion of
| white winter truffle is simply divine. Truly the food of the
| gods. And damn expensive. But you will remember it.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| A friend of ours has a truffle farm (in France) and he does very
| well selling to restaurants all over Europe. The taste is nice
| but can be overbearing if you put too much. Don't think I ever
| had the synthetic one as I was raised with real truffle taste.
| Did not know you could not freeze/keep them; will ask my friend
| now.
| ljlolel wrote:
| What did he say?
| anfractuosity wrote:
| Interesting, I'd heard of truffle oil, but not that some truffles
| are flavourless.
|
| Thought this was pretty fascinating -
| https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/jul/24/puzzle-of-prize...
| on the importance of particular trees in their growth.
| mft_ wrote:
| An Italian restaurant in a small German town nearby serves
| simple truffle pasta. I had it once and was disappointed - the
| truffles were shaved over the pasta, and it was relatively
| tasteless. I'd always assumed it was just because they were
| using cheap truffles --and from the infographic I'm sure they
| were-- but it's nice to know that at least they're serving the
| real thing and not resorting to fake flavourings.
|
| The strongly-flavoured 'truffle fries' I remember from trips to
| the US, not so much...
| VieEnCode wrote:
| I highly recommend this beautifully filmed BBC documentary about
| the lives of a few ageing truffle hunters and their trusty dogs
| in northern Italy:
|
| Storyville: The truffle hunters
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016489/storyville-th...
| Nathanael_M wrote:
| Maybe 5 years ago I was hanging out with a buddy and we took an
| angle grinder to an empty propane tank. When we were finished, we
| smelled uniquely awful. It turns out that added to propane is a
| tiny amount of the odourant Ethyl Mercaptan. Now when you're
| using propane you get just enough of a whiff of it to remind you
| that you're using propane, but if you get a smell of the inside
| of an empty propane tank? Well, something about the liquid
| propane residue that remains, some miracle of science and
| chemistry, creates a density of Ethyl Mercaptan that is shocking.
| Room-fillingly shocking. Clothes throwing away shocking. Many
| showers worth of shocking.
|
| A couple years ago I had my first "truffle" experience with some
| truffle cheese and was like cutting back into that propane tank.
| Not the same in scale, but certainly in type. Tremendously
| similar smells. Since then I've been sad and thought I just
| managed to ruin truffles for myself. This article has given me
| hope.
| nemo44x wrote:
| You should fill the tank with water before doing something like
| that. You could have killed yourself.
| Nathanael_M wrote:
| I learned that like 15 minutes too late during the Googling
| process of "Why do I smell so very bad after cutting open a
| propane tank with an angle grinder".
| no_wizard wrote:
| Extremely curious why you guys were splitting open a propane
| tank
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| This is wild. Glad that you didn't explode yourself.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| That's how many industrial fires start.
| aperson_hello wrote:
| This. Grinding = sparks. Sparks + propane remnants =
| explosions
| riffraff wrote:
| ah, that resonates with my experience with obviously fake
| truffle aroma: to me it always smelled like gas.
| Pinus wrote:
| Only tangentially related, but: Some years ago, there was a
| flurry of reports of "gas smell" in places around the English
| Channel, and gas works engineers all over south-eastern England
| and north-western France scurried about their networks looking
| for leaks, finding none. Eventually, the leak was found -- in
| the factory that produces the smelling agent!
| fbdab103 wrote:
| I love imagining this scene.
|
| Alice: I'm telling you, there is gas everywhere! This place
| is about to blow!
|
| Bob: I have been up and down the block three times, and the
| sniffer is not picking up a thing.
| orangepurple wrote:
| I seriously hope you filled that propane tank full of water
| then drained it completely and left it upside down before
| cutting into it. Hole pointing down. This is an extreme fire
| and explosion hazard because propane sinks to the bottom of the
| tank.
| nemo44x wrote:
| It also gets into the pores of the steel which can be enough
| to explode.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Steel has pores???
| lightedman wrote:
| More like cast iron, and some lower-grade steels. Higher-
| grade steels tend to have their pores closed off, the
| grains welded shut/together as a part of the mechanical
| processing.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Sorry, not being technical. The pits is probably a better
| way to put it. Point being just because the tank is empty
| doesn't mean it's safe. Should still fill with water.
| baldeagle wrote:
| Technically, it has grains. As it hardens, the liquid
| steel stuff clumps together not too unlike bread, with
| the boundary and grain size / mix being factors that
| affect the quality of the steel.
|
| https://thermalprocessing.com/metal-urgency-determining-
| aust...
| throwaway892238 wrote:
| FWIW if you need to cut into a tank like this, a sawzall is a
| bit safer as you can operate it more slowly and "tear" the
| metal open. But the safest tools are like a giant can-opener
| for use on things like oil drums. Angle grinder... I can't
| imagine sparks _not_ happening.
| graycat wrote:
| Yup!! We had a neighbor with a propane fueled electric
| generator. He wanted to get it running so that he could use
| it on his boat. Soooo, Dad helped him in his garage. They
| kept cranking the generator trying to get it going.
|
| Right, they were accumulating propane on the floor of the
| garage!
|
| Then they got the generator running and KABLOOEY!!! The
| garage burned to the ground. Dad and the neighbor both ended
| up in the burn ward of the hospital!!
|
| Lesson: Be careful with propane!!
|
| The good news: They didn't burn and sink his boat and have to
| swim.
| Nathanael_M wrote:
| It was in my buddy's shed. If it is a tale of wisdom you
| seek, turn back now.
| wut-wut wrote:
| Ha!
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I'm sorry but what compelled you to do that? Cutting into an
| empty propane tank with an angle grinder? You like being in
| close proximity to explosions or something?
| Nathanael_M wrote:
| Ahhh, a buddy and I were making a forge for knife making. I
| can't defend my choices.
| bitexploder wrote:
| I mean, it's just metal. As long as you make sure it is
| empty this is perfectly safe. Once a propane tank has
| reached the end of it's life as a propane tank it is
| completely reasonable to re-purpose them. You just have to
| be safe. Welders do this all the time. The scent they put
| in is actually somewhat flammable too. You take the valve
| out, leave it inverted, clean clean it out with soapy
| water, etc. It is a non-trivial process, but propane tanks
| are good steel.
| felipemnoa wrote:
| A hold my beer moment! /s
| Ancapistani wrote:
| I've seen it done to make barbecue grills. I've always used
| hot water heater tanks for that purpose.
| baybal2 wrote:
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I don't think this article is accurate. I went and checked the
| ingredients of some of my favorite truffle products, and every
| one of them has only real truffle, and no flavorings in the
| ingredients.
|
| For example the Marin French Cheese Truffle Brie sold all over
| the Bay Area: https://marinfrenchcheese.com/cheese-
| collections/truffle-bri...
|
| Ingredients: Cultured Pasteurized Cow's Milk, Pasteurized Cream,
| Truffles, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Truffle Juice, Salt, Natural
| Aroma, Microbial Enzymes
|
| No truffle oil or natural flavor. I suspect this article only
| applies to low quality stuff, but not everything is low quality.
|
| I suspect this is just like sourdough bread. Sure, sourdough at
| Walmart is just cheap white bread with vinegar added and tastes
| nothing like real sourdough. But you can get real sourdough
| almost anywhere if you pay a little more and know what to look
| for reading the label.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| You guys are correct, the natural aroma does seem to be fake
| here.
| JohnFen wrote:
| "Natural Aroma"
| SargeDebian wrote:
| Isn't the "natural aroma" from your ingredient list exactly
| what the author means?
| nAwYz wrote:
| Doesn't the ingredient list contain "Natural Aroma" ?
| bgia wrote:
| But it does say "Natural Aroma" which the post claims is code
| for "fake truffle smell". The list mentions "truffles" but they
| may very well be the type of truffles that has no flavor --
| with all the flavor coming from the "natural aroma".
|
| I think you're making the author's point.
| thebooktocome wrote:
| The article points out that "natural aroma" is doing some heavy
| lifting.
|
| "The use of the so-called "natural aromas" is a particularly
| sneaky trick. The artificial flavoring most commonly used in
| truffle products is the petroleum derivative mentioned at the
| beginning of the text, meaning "natural aromas" are a marketing
| ploy to make you believe that the flavor was naturally derived
| from truffles. It was not, and God knows where it comes from,
| as no one is willing to reveal the information."
|
| Real truffle is not shelf stable, the flavor degrades within a
| week.
| nomilk wrote:
| > In Alba, Italy, this is done as follows: a dish arrives in
| front of you (you can smell it to make sure it doesn't have the
| artificial truffle aroma) together with a waiter with a scale.
| The waiter weighs the truffle and then grates the truffle on the
| dish until you say stop. After grating, the waiter will weigh the
| truffle again and charge you the difference.
|
| Good to hear a sensible solution was found.
| kangalioo wrote:
| I think this is ridiculous. The point of food should be to
| taste good, not for the eater to feel smug for having real
| expensive stuff on their plate.
|
| As long as my food is delicious, I don't care whether it has
| the expensive original ingredient or a cheap substitute.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _The point of food_
|
| Oh my. The point of food is to be healthy.
| istjohn wrote:
| The utility of food has multiple dimensions for most people
| most of the time.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Sure. Which remains very far from an idea that "it is
| there to be tasty". No, it is there to be good.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| We went once to this Alba truffle festival (and actually bought
| 1 black truffle which got fungus on it in few days because I am
| a clueless idiot and this was just 10 euro curiosity), quite
| nice experience if you are around. But what is described in the
| article about scales was definitely not present in those few
| restaurants in Alba that we visited.
|
| We got boatloads of finely grated / super thin sliced black or
| white truffles on plates but nowhere were any scales seen.
|
| I think best truffle experience there was some local salami
| made with truffle bits in the festival stalls themselves, that
| taste was heavenly.
|
| That being said, we have some olive oil and balsamico flavored
| with truffles (real and artificial), which has actually
| stronger flavor than original mushrooms which have rather mild
| taste, and we use it very sparingly, not missing it at all. I
| guess one can overeat even on truffles (or at least that
| taste).
|
| One final point - many here and article too mentioned that it
| smells like gas. Maybe my olfactory system is broken but I
| never had this association, nor with real truffles nor with
| imitation.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I've always despised the taste of "truffles."
|
| Maybe, one day, I will try the real thing.
| fedeb95 wrote:
| Can confirm some of this. The real problem is expensive synthetic
| stuff. Makes sense to imitate the real deal, since truffles exist
| in very small quantities. But at least say so.
| maxboone wrote:
| Just because something is extracted from petroleum doesn't mean
| it must always taste or smell like gas. We have plenty of
| synthetic compounds that taste nothing like it at all.
|
| That said, it's very ugly that this happens, I hope the EU will
| start protecting the term truffle.
| jylam wrote:
| > "Just because something is extracted from petroleum doesn't
| mean it must always taste or smell like gas"
|
| But in this case it does, what's your point ?
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| Article says it's the same compound. So truffles also smell
| like gas.
| advisedwang wrote:
| Truffles have hundreds of chemicals in them, it's a complex
| aroma. Truffle flavour is one single note from this,
| usually at a very high intensity. It's a different
| experience.
|
| (note that this is true for many artificial flavors,
| there's lots of esters often known as "pear" "banana"
| "strawberry" etc but as I'm sure you are aware artifical
| banana candy is a long long way from tasting like an actual
| banana.
| algesten wrote:
| Explains a lot. I remember having truffle shavings at the table
| on pasta at a posh italian restaurant in the early 2000, and it
| was reassuringly expensive. Didn't taste of much, I wasn't
| overwhelmed. A bit earthy, but nothing special. Then I read
| somewhere that some people can't taste truffle. So I put it down
| to that.
|
| More recently if I get something that says "truffle", it's this
| crazy almost garlic style punch (without the aftertaste of
| garlic). I've been confused why my experience of this changed so
| much from then to now... should have known I was being scammed!
| dm319 wrote:
| I don't see myself going to the effort/expense of having
| authentic truffles. It's just a very particular mild taste. I
| think I can do without it.
| kibwen wrote:
| There's the kicker. Truffles aren't beloved because of their
| flavor (which is fine), they're beloved because of their
| rarity and expense, which allows you to signal your social
| status. They're the diamonds of the food world.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _Didn 't taste of much_
|
| Truffles vary in taste and intensity, yet the price will easily
| be set on classes that ignore the quality of the single tuber.
| Some may taste horribly - it can happen - and yet be sold with
| a price following their class (not their individual merit).
|
| I am afraid it is racist: all truffles of the same family are
| regarded the same by some, in spite of strong individual
| differences.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Very misleading title, hanging by that ambiguous '<<industry>>'.
|
| It's simple: use real truffles instead of "truffle" oils.
|
| And, if proposed truffle oil (which'd seem honestly odd from the
| /real/ industry - you normally just slice the tuber on the host
| dish, there is no discarded part to obtain derivative products),
| you do _as you are supposed to do for everything else_ : you
| trust a specific professional on founded grounds.
|
| --
|
| Edit:
|
| > _[producing truffle oil] seem[s] honestly odd from the /real/
| industry - you normally just slice the tuber on the host dish,
| there is no discarded part to obtain derivative products_
|
| I could finally think of a reason: real truffles decay, while by
| making truffle oil you may extend the life of the good.
|
| In fact, I think I saw (almost certainly real) truffle oil
| produced at least around Roddi (in the Langhe).
| donatj wrote:
| > Synthetic garbage sold as a luxury gourmet item gives customers
| the idea that truffles have an intense gas-like aroma.
|
| Huh, that's my favorite part. It's like the amazing smell of
| gasoline in an edible form.
|
| I wonder if I'd even like real truffles?
|
| I've got no hate for a flavor just for being synthetic,
| especially when getting the real flavor is destructive.
| thiht wrote:
| I always see Americans laughing when we French insist champagne
| is not champagne if it's not from the Champagne region. This is
| exactly the reason why we're pedantic about naming food products.
| Food products suck in the USA because naming doesn't seem to
| matter. Your parmesan is not parmesan, your champagne is not
| champagne, and now your truffle oil doesn't contain truffles. You
| might also want to check whether it's oil.
| Nursie wrote:
| Unfortunately with truffle oil this is a problem everywhere.
| The aromatic compound referred to as "truffle flavour" or
| "truffle aroma" is so cheap and so ubiquitous it is hard to
| find a truffle oil without it, and the industry hides it behind
| these ambiguous descriptions.
|
| Perhaps this is not a problem in France, but in Australia it is
| the same. And AFAICT any truffle oil that lists any ingredient
| other than 'oil, truffles' has had this additive inserted in
| lieu of using enough truffles to flavour the oil. Many brands
| even try to disguise this by adding some small pieces of
| truffle.
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| I foolishly bought some "truffle salt." I couldn't even find it
| the other day when I was looking, which probably tells you how
| much I was impressed with it.
| [deleted]
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-11-19 23:01 UTC)