[HN Gopher] Dice baseball: a tabletop tradition
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       Dice baseball: a tabletop tradition
        
       Author : sogen
       Score  : 59 points
       Date   : 2022-11-18 13:49 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (baseballgames.dreamhosters.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (baseballgames.dreamhosters.com)
        
       | Sigh42 wrote:
       | For anyone interested in a modern version of this, I strongly
       | recommend Deadball[0] (specifically 2nd edition). It uses RPG
       | dice and a few stats to build a fairly realistic but still breezy
       | game. You can use real player stats to build teams, or roll up
       | your own. I know some fans who run entire leagues for fun.
       | 
       | 0: http://wmakers.net/deadball
        
         | BryantD wrote:
         | Came here to make the same recommendation! Deadball is great.
        
         | sdenton4 wrote:
         | Deadball looks exactly like the 'modern reboot' I was imagining
         | while reading the main article... Differing tables of results
         | per player, with RPG elements for evolving the results tables
         | over time.
         | 
         | I can also imagine a (probably computer-aided) variant, where
         | true player stats are known only to the person who 'owns' the
         | player, approximate stats are based on results in actual games,
         | and there's a system for trading players between seasons.
        
         | cmaggard wrote:
         | Echoing this, it's a fantastic game for what it is. The author
         | also just finished funding a Kickstarter for a "Junior" version
         | of the game as well.
        
       | streptomycin wrote:
       | _Dice baseball, for any visitors here who may not be aware, was
       | played by untold thousands upon thousands of kids -- and a few
       | adults too -- over the course of more than a century, and seems
       | to have faded as a popular pastime only since around the early
       | 1980s._
       | 
       | I may have missed it, but does the article really neglect to
       | mention that probably a lot of the reason is that people now can
       | play sports video games? Tabletop is great, but video games let
       | you do so much more.
        
       | stolenmerch wrote:
       | I grew up playing APBA with my friends and tried to write some
       | automation tools in BASIC on my TRS-80 in Jr. High. A few years
       | ago I wrote a simple Node app to scrape Baseball Reference data
       | and create plausible, reverse engineered Strat-O-Matic cards as
       | PDFs. Sometimes I feel like I enjoy just playing with baseball
       | stats more than actually simulating a baseball game.
        
       | emptybits wrote:
       | Loved reading this. I was unaware these boxed editions existed
       | but I do recall using my AD&D dice as a kid to make a "baseball"
       | game. I was obsessed with the probability of singles vs doubles
       | vs triples vs home runs at the time and how to balance that with
       | the poly dice. Anyways, it was probably the late 1970s and I had
       | neither real stats nor the internet and I have no idea what my
       | rationale was but I recall the game design process was far more
       | enjoyable than the game. (Personal note ... boy, was that
       | foreshadowing!)
       | 
       | Anyways, in the article, my eyes were drawn to the roll outcome
       | tables and they all seem to be making triples as likely or more
       | likely than home runs. Yikes. In reality, it's the exact opposite
       | by a large degree. Example ... in the 2018 MLB season (pre-
       | pandemic, full season), 853 triples occurred while 5,656 home
       | runs occurred. And triples are becoming less common over the
       | decades for a variety of reasons. But even in the 1950s, home
       | runs were two to three times more likely than triples per at-bat.
       | 
       | Anyways, none of this matters, just sharing something nerdy. I
       | enjoyed the article, thank you!
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?key=&i=triples+in+mlb+201...
       | 
       | [2]
       | https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?key=&i=home+runs+in+mlb+2...
        
         | sogen wrote:
         | What changes would you suggest to the tables to make the
         | triples more inline with a realistic game?
         | 
         | Do a reroll maybe?
        
           | emptybits wrote:
           | Sure, but in the spirit of these games I guess there needs to
           | be a balance between simplicity and realism. A single roll
           | and table lookup is simple and fun but not finely grained so
           | not realistic if limited to 1D6 or 2D6. So maybe a re-roll,
           | like you suggest, but then maybe that doesn't have the same
           | easy flow.
           | 
           | Nowadays, dice with more sides are common so that allows a
           | simple 2D10 roll and a percentage lookup table. Maybe that's
           | the balance.
        
             | sogen wrote:
             | Thanks for the d10 idea!
        
       | permo-w wrote:
       | man this article really drags it out
        
       | davegauer wrote:
       | I visited the article only to make sure it mentioned the novel
       | "The Universal Baseball Association, Inc., J. Henry Waugh, Prop."
       | by Robert Coover.
       | 
       | I was thinking about that book just yesterday. I find something
       | about the way it goes "all in" on a tabletop gaming system deeply
       | appealing. Probably for the same reasons I find pencil and paper
       | RPGs and programming computers appealing.
        
         | sogen wrote:
         | Will definitely read that book next!
        
         | fogus wrote:
         | The system in UBAInc is pretty well fleshed out in the book and
         | at one time in the rings-era WWW there were people creating
         | their own versions of the game -- some very good.
        
           | pauljonas wrote:
           | Universal Baseball Association, J Henry Waugh, Prop -- Dice
           | Game
           | 
           | http://sagarin.com/sports/dice.htm
        
       | yamtaddle wrote:
       | I'm _barely_ old enough to have played this and can strongly
       | recommend Bottom of the 9th as a modern take that captures much
       | of the same feel:
       | 
       | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/166286/bottom-9th
       | 
       | No affiliation, just played it at a game convention some years
       | back and was _very_ impressed--and got a strong nostalgia buzz
       | for dice baseball, which I 'd _almost_ forgotten having played at
       | the time. Very solid game design.
        
         | sogen wrote:
         | Bottom of the 9th and
         | 
         | Baseball Highlights 2045
         | 
         | are great, specially like playing on the app, since it does all
         | the scoring and bookkeeping.
        
       | spaceprison wrote:
       | my baseball nerd friends really seem to really enjoy
       | https://pocketpennantrun.weebly.com/
        
       | sokoloff wrote:
       | This is a heavily augmented version as compared to the games
       | covered here, but some of my strongest memories of gaming as
       | child with my dad were playing Sports Illustrated's 1971 baseball
       | game*.
       | 
       | It was a lineup-based game with actual players, the dice
       | mechanics were a single die of one color (black, IIRC) with
       | numbers [1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3], a white die of [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5],
       | and a white die of [0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4]. The dice were read as
       | "black die in 10s, plus the sum of white dice in 1s".
       | 
       | The pitcher rolled first, capturing the walks, HBP, strikeouts,
       | etc. If the pitcher result was NULL, then the batter rolled for
       | the result (with different results vs right and left handed
       | pitchers). Each player had a running speed, which was used in
       | tables when the manager decided to steal a base or try to stretch
       | a hit into an extra base or tag up on a marginal fly ball. It did
       | a fairly good job of capturing the actual results to match the
       | statistics from the season.
       | 
       | We each picked four teams and ran a league, did an All Star game,
       | playoffs, and World Series. Along the way, I had to keep track of
       | all the stats, calculate the averages (damn fine way of making me
       | do math exercises), etc. From over 40 years ago, I can still
       | remember the game, the mechanics, the worn out spots on the stats
       | sheets as I updated them.
       | 
       | * -
       | https://spookyshobbyshop.com/SPORTS%20ILLUSTRATED%20BASEBALL...
        
         | sogen wrote:
         | Thanks for sharing it!
        
         | elijaht wrote:
         | I had a College Football game with the same dice (Bowl Bound),
         | and a similar experience with my dad! Had a regular season,
         | kept stats, make rankings. Was an absolute blast and something
         | I remember fondly
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | gz5 wrote:
       | Long but appreciate why it is long. Thanks for taking the time.
       | 
       | >We strongly recommend, for you adults who'd like to teach kids
       | how to play any tabletop baseball game, you first take them to
       | see an actual ballgame...or at least watch a game on TV with
       | them.
       | 
       | Would add listening (radio) and playing (including stickball
       | variants) to that list. These games are great if you have that
       | context, and much more difficult to get into without that
       | context.
        
         | AlbertCory wrote:
         | Very true. I find that watching a sport that I've played AT ALL
         | is much more entertaining than, say, curling (pls no sarcasm
         | about curling here, folks).
         | 
         | Even golf, which I haven't played since high school, is more
         | relatable to watch because at least I've done it.
        
           | themadturk wrote:
           | I love watching curling during the Winter Olympics...my
           | favorite version of the Olympics, and curling is just really
           | high on my watch list.
        
         | whartung wrote:
         | Couple of years ago we had a power outage during the world
         | series.
         | 
         | So it was my wife, the cats, and I curled up on the couch with
         | a pocket radio listening to the game by the light of an
         | electric lantern.
         | 
         | It's hard to express what a wonderful experience that was. The
         | national broadcast call (ESPN I think) was very good. I'm just
         | not a great fan of my teams current radio team, but this was a
         | really good call. Sitting in the dark was just icing on the
         | cake that helped us focus on the game.
        
           | gz5 wrote:
           | I feel like the radio experience is a 'you'll only know it
           | when you see (hear) it' type thing. A great radio team makes
           | a huge difference. Was lucky enough to grow up with the Mets
           | announcers of the 80s (Bob Murphy, Gary Cohen, Gary Thorne).
           | Spent many nights (long after my official bedtime) with my
           | clock radio (smuggled under my covers) delivering magic.
        
       | SoftTalker wrote:
       | I found the color, font, and spacing of the text very hard to
       | read so I might have missed it but... what is the appeal of
       | playing "baseball" where everything is just random chance based
       | on dice rolls. Real sports isn't random chance. There may be some
       | element of that but it's mostly about skill and strategy.
        
       | COGlory wrote:
       | I absolutely was obsessed with MLB Showdown as a kid:
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLB_Showdown
       | 
       | Card collection + dice game simulation. Was so much fun.
        
       | 0x445442 wrote:
       | Never played this game but spent hours as a kid playing strat-o-
       | matic baseball with my friends and solitaire style.
       | 
       | https://www.strat-o-matic.com/product-category/baseball/boar...
        
         | AlbertCory wrote:
         | The group I was in switched to Pursue The Pennant when that
         | came out.
        
           | sogen wrote:
           | Seems like there's still an active community around it!
        
       | sogen wrote:
       | Can't find the source, but I remember reading that Eddie Vedder
       | of Pearl Jam used to play dice baseball with one of the Ramones
       | while on tour.
        
       | bdcravens wrote:
       | In the late 80s/early 90s I came across a version that had a
       | twist - you'd create a starting lineup using baseball cards, and
       | the stats (minimally) affected the odds.
        
         | sogen wrote:
         | I think that's the APBA one which uses cards.
        
       | samizdis wrote:
       | I had not encountered dice baseball before reading the article,
       | probably because I was brought up in the UK, where the equivalent
       | dice game was Owzthat [1] - for cricket. All of my
       | contemporaries, when we were aged seven to 12, played - and most
       | of us carried a tin in a pocket.
       | 
       | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owzthat
        
       | badbadboogie wrote:
       | Picked one of these up last winter. Fun save for the fact that
       | it's pure chance. I Shay's prefer at least a little strategy or
       | skill.
        
         | docandrew wrote:
         | I read a story about some Marines in some kind of disciplinary
         | situation who took up "stopwatch baseball." You start a
         | stopwatch and then try to stop it exactly on the minute. If you
         | do, that's a home run. If you are a tenth of a second early,
         | that's a triple, two-tenths a double, etc.
         | 
         | Needless to say, they were very, very, very bored.
        
       | jamezzzboy wrote:
       | TLDR
        
       | cfeduke wrote:
       | I played a dice baseball game that I learned from my father when
       | I was growing up. I had little interest in baseball itself, but
       | for whatever reason this game where I tracked all the players'
       | stats for a league on paper, set up home and away games, and then
       | rolled four dice to see if there were strikes, doubles, triples,
       | etc., was super appealing to 10 year old me. There was no real
       | complexity, no decisions to make, just roll dice and record, and
       | then calculate the stats for the players after each game and at
       | the end of the season.
        
       | narush wrote:
       | Dice baseball is an inside joke in my family. We always make fun
       | of my dad for playing "way too much when he was a kid, instead of
       | going outside" -- this is at least according to my Grammy.
       | 
       | He stopped playing dice baseball when his older brother got his
       | first computer. It allowed you to make super basic spreadsheets
       | (or something that felt like spreadsheets, I don't trust his
       | memory a ton) -- and the first spreadsheets he made were about
       | dice baseball. From there he made spreadsheets about his
       | highschool baseball team, and from there he decided he loved
       | computers and went back to school to study them.
       | 
       | 30 years later, here I am on HN :)
        
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