[HN Gopher] What not to say to someone who has just been laid off
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What not to say to someone who has just been laid off
Author : lylefong
Score : 136 points
Date : 2022-11-17 16:14 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sifted.eu)
(TXT) w3m dump (sifted.eu)
| bombcar wrote:
| Tell your friends that you're there for them _before_ shit hits
| the fan.
|
| Stop and take a moment - who of your friends and family do you
| _know_ has your back right now? And who of your friends and
| family _knows_ you have their back?
|
| If those lists aren't what they should be, NOW is the time to
| work on fixing that, not when all hell has broken loose.
| [deleted]
| _greim_ wrote:
| This is good advice, but it shouldn't stop you from reaching
| out to people during and after a crisis. Sometimes you don't
| find out who your allies are until the road gets bumpy.
| bombcar wrote:
| Sure - but it's a lot easier for someone when they "already
| know" - it makes you sound less like someone who is just
| going through the motions.
| luxuryballs wrote:
| "I secretly wish I had been one of the ones who was laid off"
| paxys wrote:
| I wish we weren't culturally in a place where a layoff is treated
| like the death of a family member. We need to stop tying our
| identities (and basic healthcare) to our job. Getting fired from
| Amazon should really be a reason for celebration.
| baq wrote:
| Is it really cultural if when it happens financial and
| livelihood consequences are similar for some time?
| droopybuns wrote:
| Loss of revenue puts people at risk of famine and indentured
| servitude.
|
| This isn't a cultural thing. Human evolution is ugly.
| Evolution's filter function is death. If you can't feed
| yourself, nature will use you for food.
|
| You are coming from a place of extreme privilege lamenting that
| people get stressed about losing a job. It's not a minor
| inconvenience if you're working on something you think is
| important. Button pushers have little to mourn. People working
| on big projects have to establish new goals for themselves &
| align themselves with an entirely new professional network.
| These are not minor things.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| He is not coming _from_ a place of extreme privilege. He is
| coming _to_ it. In good times people here on HN publicly
| argue about ways of squeezing every possible dollar from
| their employers, talking about compensation, options, bonuses
| and such, easily changing jobs for better money, always
| feeling very special and productive.
|
| This is a reality check: if you are productive and make the
| company $2M per year while costing only $350k per year, your
| job security is fine. If you do some work that company can
| live without, you're probably not as productive as you
| thought you were. Maybe it is time to adjust your self-esteem
| and expectations to the market reality.
| zug_zug wrote:
| I went into this expecting not to like the article, but I liked
| it.
|
| I personally was just laid off, and I think I'm in a unusual
| situation of resenting sympathy - I was already looking for a new
| job and I was sick of the company. The perfect response to me
| would be a sardonic "Well I'm sorry for their loss."
|
| But the articles advises first asking how the other person is
| feeling - and that is spot on, even for my situation.
| scruple wrote:
| Well, besides resenting sympathy, how are you feeling?
| hunterb123 wrote:
| 0898 wrote:
| I know this is getting downvoted, but I think there's a few
| croutons of truth in this snarky soup.
| e2e4 wrote:
| I wasn't aware of the "IT crowd" comedy tv show. It
| definitely lifted my spirit up, perhaps in a similar way that
| layoff episode of "office space" would. It is black humor,
| but humor nonetheless, and some people do appreciate such
| form. Censoring comedy doesn't seem right.
|
| This is the episode to which the parent post refers:
| https://youtu.be/TKOrr4XRbg8
| brabel wrote:
| I think I still don't know what not to say... the article doesn't
| seem to me to explicitly tell what those things I shouldn't say
| are... it just explains the "kinds of things", like "don't make
| it about yourself"... but I don't even know how anyone can make
| it about themselves?! What do they say to make it look like that?
| Perhaps I am doing that but I have no idea?! Could someone be a
| bit more specific?
| abduhl wrote:
| Here's a real example of someone making it about themselves.
| This is a real post from someone else from LinkedIn:
|
| In the summer of 2008 I had just got back from an internship at
| Microsoft when the impacts of FC started to land. Microsoft was
| generous to extend me an offer (to start in 2009 fall), and as
| I just started negotiating my recruiter reached out to me to
| let me know that I have 24 hours to accept the offer due to
| 18,000 employees (~18% of workforce) being let go.
|
| It was a mind numbing number. These were people and families
| that we knew and had an amazing summer with. I personally knew
| interns who had declined offers to try and negotiate a
| different offer who did not have anything to show for all the
| hard work put in.
|
| I came back to campus a few week later to complete chaos.
| Harvard Business School, at that time, was a feeder school to
| Finance and Consulting. I had so many friends whose internships
| were yanked from under them. In some cases bankrupt banks came
| after part of the tuition payments that they had made on behalf
| of their former (now students) employees. Over the next few
| months we saw families and lives disrupted, mortgages, visas
| and plans thrown into disarray.
|
| I felt thankful to have a job then. And I feel thankful to have
| a job today.
|
| My hope for Meta emerging from these deep, needed cuts is that
| (a) we telegraph clearly that we are done with cuts for now and
| we give teams the psychological safety to work and create
| impact (b) we take the moment to reevaluate who we are as a
| company and how we evolve systems to value what we need in our
| employees to accomplish what we need going forward.
|
| To Meta employees who have been laid off today. My network is
| your network. Please ping me here. I am deeply networked in the
| Seattle community and am happy to make introductions for you.
| In addition to that I am happy to make time to do resume
| reviews and/or interview coaching and feedback
| zug_zug wrote:
| The article literally ends with an exact quote "Hey, I heard
| about the news. I don't have the right words and please don't
| feel obligated to reply. Just know that if I can do something,
| big or small, now or in the future, I'm just a text away."
| brabel wrote:
| That's literally the opposite of what I am asking. What NOT
| to say, not what to do.
| Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote:
| "learn to code" but what do you (not) say to a programmer who got
| fired?
| brewdad wrote:
| Telling a laid off programmer "learn to code" seems a
| little...harsh.
| wongarsu wrote:
| learn [new and hip language or framework]
|
| Or maybe "use the time off to set up a Kubernetes cluster"
| [deleted]
| bussierem wrote:
| why pile more suffering on top of their current amount?
| [deleted]
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| I'd recommend _not_ saying "Learn to code." :)
| Cyberdog wrote:
| Learn to mine coal?
| jakeinspace wrote:
| That suggestion is even more important when talking to a laid-
| off programmer
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Yesterday someone was commenting about decaying
| infrastructure and continuous firefighting at Amazon:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33627563
|
| That person recommended coding exercises in all seriousness
| because of the chaos at their bigco.
| teach wrote:
| you should avoid saying "learn to code BETTER", of course :)
| aliqot wrote:
| Offer times when you're available to help milk their new goats.
| listless wrote:
| My father passed away in April of '21 just as the vaccines were
| coming out and everyone was getting them. He was an otherwise
| healthy guy who just died suddenly of a heart attack.'
|
| The worst thing was when people would say "Did he get the
| vaccine?". That still makes me furious to this day. Do not
| politicize my father's death. Please. He's not a pawn for your
| agenda. The quickest way to trivialize a person's life is to turn
| them into a data point to support your bias. People still say
| that to me and it's all I can do to not punch a hole the wall
| every time I hear it.
| partdavid wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear about that. When my mother died lots of
| people took it as an opportunity to support some idea or
| opinion they had, religious, political or social, it was awful.
| listless wrote:
| I know exactly how that feels. I'm sorry for your loss.
| thagerty wrote:
| The same thing happens after elections. The 'winners' (some, not
| all) prance around with fake compassion, using the moment to
| signal their virtues, and their 'good' choices. If they only knew
| how ugly it is.
| ungawatkt wrote:
| "Wow, that sucks. How are you holding up? Let me know if I can
| help, like with practice questions or whatever. If you've got
| time this weekend we can grab lunch."
|
| It's not perfect, but you can go a long way with something like
| the above: unqualified acknowledgement, interest in their well-
| being, offer of support with an example, and a non-pushy offer to
| have some company/fun/distraction. Swap in specific phrasing as
| you'd like.
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| To someone from a more collectivist culture this sounds
| perfectly noncommittal - a weak reed that pierces the hand of
| anyone who would support himself on it. What is there to be
| had, except lunch expenses?
| jackbravo wrote:
| Oh wow. What would be more appropriate in a collectivist
| culture? Avoiding the message and instead go over to their
| house to do the things suggested above?
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Offering to pass the name around in your circles or keeping
| ears open at your company, that would be actually helpful.
| I've always found "let me know how I can help" code for
| "don't bother me" in America.
|
| Especially bad and a red flag: "If you've got time this
| weekend we can grab lunch." The fellow might be in crisis
| now, but don't bother me until the weekend.
| ungawatkt wrote:
| Like I said, change the specific phrasing as you want and
| makes sense, every situation and person is different. The
| goals were "offer help with an actual example" and
| "offering company/fun/distraction without being pushy",
| it doesn't have to be a weekend lunch or looking over
| practice questions, it could also be sending their resume
| to friends and gaming together later that night, same
| same.
| theironhammer wrote:
| deeblering4 wrote:
| Personally I'd stop talking after "how are you holding up?" and
| just listen to them.
| iceburgcrm wrote:
| The most useful thing to say is if you need a peer reference let
| me know.
| wellareyousure wrote:
| mkl95 wrote:
| A couple of (former) teammates were laid off recently. In both
| cases I was honest and told them I didn't agree with leadership's
| decision, and I asked them if they had some project lined up.
| Both of them said they were taking some time off and not thinking
| about work for a while. It aligns with my personal experience
| when I was laid off.
| scruple wrote:
| A very good friend was hit by a recent BigTechCo layoff. He has
| the financial security to take some months off but his
| immigration status has rendered him scrambling. I wish there
| were serious efforts to reform that entire system. I'm putting
| feelers out on his behalf but there's really not much else I
| can do to help him and it's frustrating.
| miscaccount wrote:
| As someone who is also impacted by recent layoff and on H1B i
| feel like a headless chicken trying to figure out what to do.
|
| Everyone expects to do several round of interview and also if
| you are not in leetcode mode its hard.
|
| One of my best prospect company, announced a lay off too :(
|
| Having said that load of people have helped me in referring
| to their company and doing everything to help.
|
| Be empathic to the people who are laid off and also this
| country needs immigration reform.
|
| Having no clear target on when i will get a green card (maybe
| 10, 20 or even 100) its making me reconsider my decision to
| stay here a lot.
|
| i am just ramblings on immigration and i know only Indians
| are suffering the most compared to others.
| [deleted]
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| Engineers instinctively want to solve problems. You can't solve
| _this_ problem. They 're going to feel awful for a while.
|
| "Hey, you'll find another job!" or "Hey, in 6 months you'll be
| over it!" or mentioning Kubler-Ross are the wrong "solutions."
| And definitely anything about _you_ is the wrong solution.
|
| "I'm really sorry" sounds like boilerplate, but that's a good
| opening. And also a good closing.
| scruple wrote:
| It really is frustrating. I commented elsewhere on this post
| that a very good friend of mine was just laid off and his
| immigration status is now a question that needs an answer in
| the coming month(s).
|
| His entire family is on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
| I'm 3 states removed, so I can't physically help him with
| anything, either. My own employer is not hiring right now. The
| best that I can do is reach out to my own network on his
| behalf, and I am doing that, but I do not like the feeling of
| helplessness that I feel over his situation, let alone what he
| must be feeling about it. It really does feel awful, even as a
| bystander.
| tacheiordache wrote:
| Could a friend hire him for their company for a fictitious
| salary or something like that to keep their immigration clock
| going?
| jamiek88 wrote:
| I know you mean well but unless you've actually been
| through the U.S. immigration system you can't properly
| understand how absurd this suggestion is.
|
| Please no one do this.
|
| It won't help, won't work, and you'll both regret it big
| time.
|
| Some people tried this stuff with their llc's in 2008 oil
| crash, lot of h1b's and E2's all employer tied.
|
| I testified at several of the hearings.
| miscaccount wrote:
| that would be immigration fraud and can be a serious
| offence.
|
| the paper work for getting a H1b or any immigration visa is
| like 100+ pages at minimum.
|
| https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/two-santa-clara-
| county-...
|
| just one of the many example.
| JamesianP wrote:
| Well I mean it is an objectively solvable problem.
|
| Personally I vacillate between fear of the future and optimism
| of the future. Peers expressing the opinion that there's
| nothing to feel bad about helps my perspective a lot more than
| people acting like they think someone just died when I suffer a
| setback.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| improving my relationship with my wife has roughly been
| figuring out "is she venting/complaining or looking for a
| solution", and for myself, asking the same thing.
| thedanbob wrote:
| My wife and I use the phrase "it's not about the nail"[0] as
| an in-joke/shorthand for communicating this.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| .. but what if she DID have a nail in her head? :)
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| This isn't limited to engineers. For better or worse, it seems
| to be the default human response.
|
| Good for the species, I guess. Aggravating for the individual.
| :)
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Like for everything geek related, the IT crowd has the answer:
| https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/f0/ab/96f0ab9606a11da037c3...
| iso1631 wrote:
| Someone on a forum I frequent lost their (90 year old) father
| this morning. I never know what to say in those situations so I
| tend to hide for a few days.
|
| I guess posting that screenshot wouldn't be the best move...
| dryanau wrote:
| It wouldn't. But not because it's offensive. It is making a
| joke about the sympathizer's awkwardness, which is making it
| about yourself. A straightforward sorry for your loss is
| always best.
| fayalargeau wrote:
| > "Hey, I heard about the news. I don't have the right words and
| please don't feel obligated to reply. Just know that if I can do
| something, big or small, now or in the future, I'm just a text
| away."
|
| i like this
| wentin wrote:
| I don't like it personally. I feel it is exaggerated,
| especially the part "I don't have the right words" I would feel
| awkward if I were on the receiving end -- I lost my job, not
| someone died. Maybe it is just me, I get awkward easily, for
| context.
|
| It highly depends on the context. Are they 20-something single
| person working on a high-pay job, or someone older with a
| family to support and struggling? The response needs to be
| different.
| js8 wrote:
| Maybe instead of that sentence, if you really like them and
| would like to see them again, tell them you would like to see
| them again sometimes?
| notRobot wrote:
| There are no universally applicable "right words" for this
| (or many other situations), so sometimes "I do have the right
| words" _are_ the right words because they do a good job at
| conveying the speaker 's intent (of showing that they care
| and are there to help).
| AnhTho_FR wrote:
| I wrote the article - Thanks, means a lot to me!
| nightski wrote:
| I don't know for me it's just not necessary. I know who has my
| back already. This would just feel like pandering. I'd rather
| people didn't act like I suffered a traumatic life event. It's
| just a job after all.
| whydoyoucare wrote:
| "...a phone call away" for cultures and ages that prefer
| speaking to texting. :-)
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| "Hey you up for meeting for a coffee this weekend?" works
| too.
|
| It's also more concrete and proactive than telling them they
| can talk to you. The coffee chat situation allows more open
| conversation too.
| alach11 wrote:
| For me something more appropriate might be:
|
| "Hey, I heard about the news. Let me know if there's anything I
| can do to help, big or small."
|
| Or for someone I'm close to:
|
| "Heard you got laid off. That fucking sucks. How are you
| holding up?"
| wentin wrote:
| It depends on what your relationship with them, and their
| position in job hunting. If it is your co-worker, they got laid
| off and you didn't. It is awkward. I would just say the normal
| thing that you would say to people who left their job like
| moments you cherished with them and things you learned from them,
| and that you are sorry to see what happened to them. if you think
| they don't have a problem finding another job, I won't even say
| the last bit of being sorry, just say it sucks what happened. I
| really hate fake sympathy.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Being retained when a co-worker is laid off is a weird
| experience. It happened to me once, and the co-worker was also
| a friend. I thought his layoff was poorly handled and it
| appeared (at least to me) that it was based on bias and not
| business need or a performance problem.
|
| I started looking for other work the same day.
| thibo_skabgia wrote:
| Very well written and so true. For myself, I have trouble dealing
| with people who want (need?) to prove they're here. Most of the
| time, they are overdoing it, and it is clear that it's about
| themselves. Just see if people are responsive to your "support".
| Otherwise, You're just making it worse.
| AnhTho_FR wrote:
| Indeed, the extra-burden of managing the "wannabe helpers" is
| real!
| seanc wrote:
| Sitting someone down and walking them through your own experience
| without judgement or expectation is always appreciated.
|
| I was laid off many times during the Optical Winter of 2001-2006
| and developed a system for dealing with it. Handing someone the
| system and saying "You should do these things" is less helpful
| than telling the story of "The first time I got laid off I did a,
| b, c. The second time I had learned my lesson, and did less of a
| and more of c. The fourth time was different because blah blah
| blah"
| funklute wrote:
| > the Optical Winter of 2001-2006
|
| I have never heard of this, and google doesn't return anything
| useful... what does this refer to?
| ghaff wrote:
| I've never heard that term but I assume it refers to the
| carnage around fiber/optical/etc. investments around that
| period. Companies like Cisco and Intel had massive writedowns
| for investments they made.
| xwdv wrote:
| Only do this though if you are a peer or someone they can
| aspire to be. If you once got laid off but your life then went
| on a downward spiral and you never really recovered, just keep
| it to yourself. It's not comforting.
| seanc wrote:
| Ah yes. True, good point.
|
| Early on I went to a support group for laid off employees,
| and many of them stood up to tell heartbreaking stories of
| emotional turmoil and bleak prospects. I walked out of there
| and never looked back. I had a young family and bills to pay.
| I didn't have time or energy to be someone else's pillar of
| strength.
| marsven_422 wrote:
| sneak wrote:
| Why is being laid off being compared to the grief related to the
| death of a parent?
|
| Why would there be any grief from a layoff? It's just a job.
|
| Anyone in mourning because they have to job hunt probably has
| some bigger issues that aren't going to be helped in any way by
| what friends do or do not say.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| There are a variety of reasons:
|
| "It's just a job" is a nice idea, but since it's something I do
| 8 hours a day 5 days a week I try to make it something I enjoy.
| I enjoy meeting with my coworkers each day, and like the
| projects I'm doing. I also probably care the least about my job
| of most of the people I know. For some of my FAANG friends
| working at a FAANG has been a life long dream. Sure it's easy
| to say "work shouldn't be important!" but for some people it
| is.
|
| Most obvious financial insecurity: The tech market is
| _shrinking_ (I personally think it is _collapsing_ , but that
| is not a necessary belief to feel grief). Many of the people
| being laid off right now (and in the future) will have much
| stiffer competition than before. I have a recently laid off
| friend who just had a baby. His partner doesn't have a high
| income job. That's a lot of added stress. To add to this most
| FAANG employees might not see nearly as high comp as they're
| used to.
|
| Then there is the serious loss we're going to see with any of
| our friends that are foreign nationals. I have a few friends on
| H1B visas. They're a big part of my life, own a home and plan
| on staying in the US indefinitely. They assumed they were on
| the path to a green card, which is reasonable given the market
| when the arrived at the US. It's very possible they will be
| forced to go back to their home country, never to come to the
| US again. Not only do these people have a justified reason to
| grieve, but any of their friends do as well.
|
| And big picture: we're potentially seeing a change in the
| entire industry, on par with the dotcom bust (maybe worse,
| maybe better). I'm guessing you're too young to remember but
| for many people getting laid off in 1999-2000 was the _end_ of
| their tech career. To get a sense of how big of an impact this
| has, consider how many of your coworkers are from the dotcom
| era? I 'm guessing not many. The tech industry was huge and
| exciting then, just like it has been recently. A lot of people
| got wiped out and never returned to the high times of the late
| dotcom period.
|
| There's honestly a lot of grief to be felt right now, not just
| for those being laid off but for those impacted by it
| indirectly (plus I think we're all waiting for that meeting if
| we haven't already had it).
| ghaff wrote:
| >A lot of people got wiped out and never returned to the high
| times of the late dotcom period.
|
| I don't think (and hope) things will get to dotcom levels
| which--you're right--led to a lot of people exiting the
| industry, especially if they had skills that were fairly
| transferrable to other types of jobs. Personally, I was
| extremely lucky when I got laid off to quickly land a lower-
| paying but otherwise better role and the company (barely)
| made it through post-2001. Certainly, it was otherwise pretty
| much crickets otherwise looking for another position and that
| was the norm.
| JamesianP wrote:
| There is a loss, and people (especially more recently it
| seems?) sometimes are unable to cope at all with loss. I do
| agree it's unhealthy and extreme to put it that way. A dead
| loved-one is never coming back. That is a pain you must learn
| to live with. But you can get another job, perhaps even the
| same one again.
| matwood wrote:
| > Why would there be any grief from a layoff? It's just a job.
|
| For many on HN you might be right, but for people living
| paycheck to paycheck it causes an enormous amount of stress. My
| dad was a factory worker and got laid off when I was young. It
| was hard. I was old enough to understand the real stress my
| parents were under while they tried to pay the bills each month
| (it's fun having your water turned off which can take 48h to
| turn back on after you pay smh). Luckily my grandparents helped
| financially while my dad worked 3 jobs to make ends meet. I was
| working and gave them the little money I had.
| bena wrote:
| Eh. I get it. It can be a major event for people. Especially if
| it's the first time. I'm not sure how I would respond to being
| laid off. I've never been fired from a job. I've always
| quit/resigned.
|
| So it would be a completely novel experience for me.
|
| When I was reading through the article however, I got it.
| Because while I haven't lost a parent yet or lost my job, I
| have lost a wife. One day I got a call around 5pm Friday that
| she was a state away and leaving me. Like out of the blue. No
| idea.
|
| And people kept trying to tell me how I felt. And none of them
| were right. They offered vague promises of help, but there was
| nothing concrete. But I knew what I needed to do and just went
| about the business. The worst thing, the most annoying thing,
| was people trying to treat you differently and tell you how you
| feel and ascribe your every thought, word, and action to the
| event. If you had a rough morning because you spilled coffee on
| yourself, well it's the event. If you decide to go out to a bar
| and see people you haven't in a while, well it's the event.
| Feeling bored at work, the event. Happy, the event. Sad, the
| event. Upset because everyone is saying everything is about the
| event, well it's really because of the event.
|
| I can say in my case, I did just want to get on with things.
| But it's almost like I wasn't allowed to.
|
| And I think that's what the article is trying to convey. Let
| people handle their internal state the way they want to.
| fundad wrote:
| I'm sure there's an answer that would satisfy you.
| nemo44x wrote:
| There's many reasons. A job is a social place. You build
| relationships and bonds and your work is a part of your
| identity. It is suddenly gone and you haven't had time to
| prepare for that reality.
|
| If you have a family that relies on your income it can be very
| stressful. Especially if you don't have a fund. Uncertainty
| breeds anxiety.
| bazoom42 wrote:
| Not every one is a higly paid software developer in a tech hub.
| If you live paycheck to paycheck in an area with high
| unemployment, have kids, and your health insurance is tied up
| with your employment, getting sacked can be pretty scary.
| theironhammer wrote:
| luckylion wrote:
| I agree, but maybe we're the weird ones? I'm not a very
| emotional person, and the death of my father hasn't thrown me
| off balance, so maybe that's just a fundamental thing, either
| you're strongly affected by such things or you're not?
| ghaff wrote:
| >Why would there be any grief from a layoff? It's just a job.
|
| While the juxtaposition seemed off to me as well, layoffs can
| have serious consequences. Not everyone (in all situations) can
| send a few emails and have another well-paying job in a few
| weeks. I've known especially somewhat later career people in
| the dot-bomb era who basically never really recovered from a
| layoff in terms of either career or finances. So, yes, it's
| just a job with the caveat that you probably want/need to get
| another comparable one and probably would prefer not to move
| across the country or even move countries (depending on visas)
| to do so.
| zug_zug wrote:
| I think this is a fair question. Let me share:
|
| As somebody who's been laid off and fired before, I think the
| hardest part is not always the money (though it can be), but
| loss of control.
|
| People say the same thing about having their house broken into,
| they don't care about material loss, it's the sense of
| violation and not being safe in their homes that may persist
| for years that far outweighs money.
|
| So the hard part can be, especially the first time when you
| don't expect it at all, suddenly having the routine of your
| daily life ripped away. All the projects, the mentoring, the
| presentations you were planning, all the coworkers you talked
| to daily, all gone in a snap.
|
| If you're taken by surprise (which can happen a lot actually,
| since a lot of people in tech are incredibly awful at giving
| negative feedback directly and clearly) then you may for years
| get uncomfortable about any Friday meeting on your calendar
| from a manager. Or you may have trouble making yourself work at
| all when a pending layoff is announced.
|
| But in a way it makes you stronger, more able to separate your
| identity and self-worth from your work.
| ghaff wrote:
| >If you're taken by surprise (which can happen a lot
| actually, since a lot of people in tech are incredibly awful
| at giving negative feedback directly and clearly) then you
| may for years get uncomfortable about any Friday meeting on
| your calendar from a manager.
|
| And, to be honest, some people can be pretty oblivious. I've
| known people whose work _always_ went through multiple rounds
| of rework to the point where they were a complete time suck
| and even had projects just given to someone else to finish.
| And they were still in complete shock when they were
| eventually let go.
|
| In addition, even in companies that don't routinely lay
| people off, there can still be organizational changes and
| sometimes someone can just be left without a metaphorical
| desk--especially if the company isn't doing a lot of hiring.
| ccbccccbbcccbb wrote:
| Hasn't it been too much 'what not to say' preaching lately? Gets
| tiresome.
| [deleted]
| tinyhouse wrote:
| If it's from Elon's Twitter you can say congrats!
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Please don't. This is the epitome of making it about you.
| kazinator wrote:
| "I'd tell you some lay-off jokes to cheer you up, but none of `em
| work!"
| pfdietz wrote:
| "Knock knock."
|
| "Who's there?"
|
| "Not you anymore."
|
| This is dreadful, I know.
| minimal-o wrote:
| I've only been laid off one time in my life. I was working in
| Network Operations for an oil and gas company as a sysadmin /
| disaster recovery specialist. Anyway, there was some industry
| crisis and management announced layoffs were coming. On the
| day the axe fell my departmental director was calling people
| into his office. My turn came and I went in and when I saw
| the expression on his face I knew something was amiss. He was
| like "OK here is your severance doco." I was of course
| shocked because I was the hotshot in my department. So I
| asked, "Why? Everyone knows I am THE ass kicker on my team."
| And he said "Oh. Um, well we thought you `wanted` to be laid
| off." I was like, "Huh? Wait, no, what?" All he could say was
| "Sorry man". Good times !
| pacaro wrote:
| In countries with stronger labor protections, or in
| unionized workplaces, when layoffs are obviously on the
| horizon, they're often preceded by a round of voluntary
| layoffs, where people are actively told to ask if the want
| to be layed off. There are many reasons why someone might
| choose severance and certainty in that situation
| blagie wrote:
| I'll mention one more thing which helps: Concrete offers of help.
| Depending on the circumstances, those can be practical (e.g.
| cooking and bringing food, covering part of funeral
| expenses/logistics) or supportive (e.g. making yourself available
| to talk through things or just be there for someone).
|
| A vague offer of help, many people will never make use of. "If
| there's anything I can do..." often doesn't quite signal "if
| there's _anything_" so much as a concrete offer of the time,
| effort, or money you're willing to put in to help out. Even if
| it's not quite what will help them, you've signalled you're e.g.
| willing to spend 8 hours and $1000. It's a lot easier to ask for
| something else, comparable, and know it's within reason.
| Otherwise, most people won't impose on you for anything major.
|
| I'd edit to: "Hey, I heard about the news. I don't have the right
| words and please don't feel obligated to reply. Just know that if
| I can do something, big or small, now or in the future, I'd be
| glad to. For example, I'd be glad to ____ or ____. If you'd like
| to talk, I'm a phone call away, or I'd be glad to bring dinner
| over tomorrow, if you'd like to chat."
|
| Much of this has a cultural component too. Some of the above
| might be too much in the US and too little in more collectivist
| cultures.
| padraic7a wrote:
| That's a really good tip.
|
| "Let me know if there's anything I can do" isn't all that
| helpful without being specific.
| jackbravo wrote:
| Indeed, I'm finding that a lot of people find a phone call
| scary or threatening, and are much more comfortable with a text
| message, or even an audio message. At the same time, a dinner
| offer should be great for someone close enough, but in remote
| work that is more rare to happen.
|
| Writing a recommendation on LinkedIn, to me, seems like the
| most actionable thing one can do in such cases.
| robbyking wrote:
| When my son was born, my friends without kids would bring
| food by and want to hang out, while my friends with kids
| would just text us after they left food on our doorstep.
| dctoedt wrote:
| My MIL died unexpectedly some years ago. We all came home
| from the hospital that afternoon and were just sitting
| around. The doorbell rang; my wife saw through the window
| that it was one of her longtime friends. My wife answered
| the door; the friend handed her a casserole and said how
| sorry she was, then immediately left.
| extragood wrote:
| A co-worker who was laid off recently reached out to see if I
| had any room on my team. It broke my heart to say that we're
| not hiring for the foreseeable future either. I liked him a lot
| and thought he did good work, and otherwise I'd certainly have
| considered him. I told him as much.
|
| We made plans instead to meet up for coffee and catch up next
| week. I wish I had something more concrete to help him out.
| This feels only slightly better than the empty platitudes
| mentioned in the article.
| alocasia-1 wrote:
| Maybe something will come up in conversation! In any case
| having something to look forward to, even as mundane as a
| coffee date, is a blessing when your daily routine suddenly
| goes out the window. I'm sure it means more to him than you
| guess.
| scionthefly wrote:
| After a recent devastating family tragedy, a friend reached out
| and said "we are paying a lawn service to mow for you."
|
| It was unexpected, related to something I had posted about
| trying to fix our riding lawnmower, and honestly took a huge
| chore off of our plate at a time when we needed to focus on
| family.
|
| I've appreciated so many things people have done for us, from
| just a message, card, shoulder to cry on, or visiting at the
| hospital or attending a funeral. But I was taken aback at how
| important and meaningful that concrete and thoughtful help was.
| I'm now trying to look for ways I can offer something concrete
| and thoughful whenever possible.
| robbyking wrote:
| One thing I learned when my son was born is eating well is
| really tough to do when your mind is somewhere else.
|
| Mealtrains -- friend sourced meal prep -- are popular for
| people with newborns, but I've taken to dropping off meals
| (or sending GrubHub gift cards for friends who live out of
| town) to friends when I know they're going through a tough
| time.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| I've just discovered this firsthand. Meal trains are
| awesome, but really challenging to have done right if you
| and/or your partner have serious food allergies. GrubHub is
| definitely good, but what's worked for us is a prepared
| foods service that drops off pre-cooked meals twice a week.
| Our friends and family gave us cash to help allay the cost
| of the service, but it's really not much more expensive
| than takeout.
|
| We're in Seattle, and use these folks:
| https://www.westerlykitchen.com
| batch12 wrote:
| > Meal trains are awesome, but really challenging to have
| done right if you and/or your partner have serious food
| allergies
|
| Maybe someone should create a meal registry. Like meal
| planning and a meal train combined with the concept of a
| gift register. I don't think I'd feel comfortable being
| that direct with what I will and won't eat when it's a
| service someone is going out of their way to provide, but
| on the other hand I have received meals I didn't eat so
| it'd be better for everyone. The idea is simple enough
| that I'd be surprised if it doesn't already exist.
|
| Edit: ha, a search for "meal train" shows this solution
| as the first hit, so guess there's a demand after all.
| ska wrote:
| This - providing meals - is a time honored tradition in
| many many cultures and communities, for exactly the reasons
| you mention.
|
| I think the somewhat recent focus on nuclear families and
| breaking of social cohesion that came with it makes this
| harder. If you don't even know your neighbors, you probably
| don't know when they need the help, or if it would be
| appreciated/accepted if you offer.
| ransom1538 wrote:
| My friend: "I can't pay my rent."
|
| Me: "Whats your venmo".
|
| 4 minutes later....
|
| My friend: "wtf I can't pay this back"
|
| Me: "Good i don't do loans"
|
| Put in the cash or effort. When you help someone down, they
| never forget.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| > When you help someone down, they never forget.
|
| You assume that _they_ will never forget and will be
| grateful to you for your help, but the opposite might
| happen: people will hate you instead of feeling grateful.
| Some people will resent being in a situation when they
| needed help. They 'll feel inferior and will hate you for
| that.
| themihai wrote:
| >> When you help someone down, they never forget.
|
| That's just wishful thinking. Most of the times they
| "forget" or somehow think you have had enough money so that
| wasn't a big effort.
|
| That's why it's not really worth it(imho) to help somehow
| unless your effort is minimal.
| matwood wrote:
| Doesn't matter if they forget. Life's too short not to
| help others if you have the means to help.
| tssva wrote:
| > That's why it's not really worth it(imho) to help
| somehow unless your effort is minimal.
|
| Not all reward is external.
| ku-man wrote:
| pacaro wrote:
| I've always tried to operate this way, loans create an
| obligation, but for when people are uncomfortable with a
| gift, I lean towards the pay-it-forward approach.
|
| That's not to say there is no place for loans, but for me
| it has to be with the closest of friends, and when I've
| been the borrower, I sure as hell want to pay back, when
| I'm the lender, I'm much less concerned.
| matwood wrote:
| When it comes to things like this, my thought is you
| don't loan your friends money, you give it to them.
| sobkas wrote:
| > My friend: "I can't pay my rent."
|
| > Me: "Whats your venmo".
|
| > 4 minutes later....
|
| > My friend: "wtf I can't pay this back"
|
| > Me: "Good i don't do loans"
|
| > Put in the cash or effort. When you help someone down,
| they never forget.
|
| Yep, they will never forget humiliation of depending on
| someone else's charity and will always hate you for it. But
| because it would be impolite to say it straight to your
| face they will find other ways to get back at you.
|
| Also you are no savior if your fortune depends on a
| system(all of them, not only obvious one) that destroyed
| their lives.
| progman32 wrote:
| Yes this would be mortifying to some people. I noticed my
| friend was having trouble with their car jack and dropped
| off a new one for them. They felt humiliated. Not saying
| don't do it, but be sure you know your friend if you do
| this. The "and you can't pay me back" is maybe the
| ouchiest part. It's unfortunate because the person giving
| the gift is usually genuinely trying to help, only to be
| slapped in the face.
| ransom1538 wrote:
| "Yep, they will never forget humiliation of depending on
| someone else's charity"
|
| Wow. What a horrible way to view the world.
| progman32 wrote:
| I have friends like this. They fought super hard and
| sacrificed a lot to get themselves and their families
| where they are. Super kind and generous people. Getting
| unsolicited gifts like this feels like a big slap in the
| face of what they've accomplished. I'm not saying they're
| right to feel this way. But it's something that needs to
| be considered.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| If someone is legitimately trying to help you, and it
| makes you feel bad, what you need is therapy, not someone
| else ignoring your struggles.
| matwood wrote:
| It's not really unsolicited if the friend just told you
| they can't pay their rent. If they were the stoic you
| write about, they wouldn't have mentioned it at all.
| GrinningFool wrote:
| > When you help someone down, they never forget.
|
| Does that matter?
| SoftTalker wrote:
| > we are paying a lawn service to mow for you.
|
| That would rub me the wrong way if I hadn't asked for it. I
| am just the sort of person who does not want pity or charity.
| If I want help, I'll ask for it or do the hiring, thanks.
|
| In particular, mowing the lawn is one of my "escapes" where I
| can kind of zone out doing something that is routine and
| mindless for a little while. It's almost like meditation.
| Shoveling snow off of the driveway in the winter is another
| one.
|
| So I would say, ask the person first. "I'd like to take care
| of the lawn for you if that would be helpful" rather than
| just doing it.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| >I am just the sort of person who does not want pity or
| charity. If I want help, I'll ask for it or do the hiring,
| thanks.
|
| As someone who fights this same urge, you should know that
| this makes you appear as closed off and cold to people that
| you have no intention of being closed off and cold to.
|
| You do this (I suspect) out of a deep seated fear of
| vulnerability. People pick up on the lack of vulnerability
| and will not see it as a virtue, but instead will see it as
| a kind of 'untrustworthiness' if that makes sense? The
| social contract is that you make yourself a bit vulnerable
| to other people as a show of trust, they make themselves a
| bit vulnerable back, and then you have a bond.
| panxyh wrote:
| You might have no idea what you are talking about, if you
| have never experienced any mind-altering situation like a
| family tragedy before.
| junon wrote:
| To each their own. Remember that the other person might not
| know it's your escape. And even then, if it's for a short
| time, does it really matter that much? Not like it's a
| lifetime subscription to lawn mowing services.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| I think the missing context is that the person had
| mentioned to their friend about having issues with their
| law mower.
| janeerie wrote:
| Many people, if you ask them if they want a gift, will say
| no just to be polite. In this scenario, if somebody said
| "I'd like to take care of the lawn for you if that would be
| helpful," I would deny the request because I wouldn't want
| to impose on them.
|
| Just going ahead and doing it for me would be amazing. The
| number one gift anybody could give me in a tough situation
| is to not force me to make one more decision.
|
| Which is to say, I guess it comes down to knowing the
| person.
| willcipriano wrote:
| I'm the sort of person who only accepts help as a last
| resort. I don't like being a bother, but a few times in
| my life people have demanded to do something for me like
| this and I'll always remember it.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Embarrassed to say I'd never heard it before it was featured in
| Andor but "an open invitation is no invitation at all" really
| revealed something to me about the nature of socializing.
| dheera wrote:
| As far as concrete offers of help go, if they're someone I
| trust professionally, I usually say something like "If there's
| anyone on my LinkedIn that you'd like an intro to please let me
| know and I'll try to make it happen."
|
| And for friends, I'm also open to meals, walks, hugs, co-
| working for a couple hours in a coffee shop, whatever they
| would find helpful emotionally.
| higeorge13 wrote:
| I once offered the following to a fired friend right in the
| beginning of covid:
|
| - weekly check-in to see how their job search goes and even if
| they need a laptop to do their home tests (because i knew it
| was broken)
|
| - my reference and recommendation when they would reach the
| final stage of any interview ( i got a call from a hiring
| manager where i told them that they were basically the most
| talented colleague i ever had and it should be an instant hire)
|
| - i even asked a friend to create a job for them in his company
| -when the previous one got into hiring freeze- and hire them
| temporarily until they found something more suitable.
|
| I believe i did almost anything beyond human possible for them.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| "The Five Stages of Grief" from the Kubler-Ross Model seems to
| apply.
|
| 1. Denial
|
| 2. Anger
|
| 3. Bargaining
|
| 4. Depression
|
| 5. Acceptance
|
| The detail most get confused with is these stages occur in no
| particular order.
|
| Personally, I would likely jump from 2 to 3, then found a
| competing nonprofit firm with 9k people in the same situation,
| The real danger with talent layoffs is people wrongly assume
| every employee is replaceable, and will quietly go away without
| financial consequences. ;)
|
| Good luck out there, and remember that the only difference
| between bums in suits and most CEOs is money (don't get upset, we
| all know this is true). =)
| notUrsMine wrote:
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Guess I'll be the jerk who tells you the Kubler-Ross Model
| doesn't have much empirical evidence:
|
| https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-history/its-time-le...
|
| That said, it at least provides a vocabulary for talking about
| loss.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| "empirical evidence" would likely require a breach of
| research ethics, but I suppose you could randomly borrow your
| neighbors cats to observe owner behaviors.
|
| Just kidding, as being a "jerk" with facts is not a character
| flaw from my perspective. lol =)
| BurningFrog wrote:
| This is a good example of Acceptance!
| Smoosh wrote:
| Or is it denial?
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| Strategic ambiguity, nicely spotted =)
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| Oh... snap! =)
| samtho wrote:
| The problem with theses is that this list was compiled from
| aggregated observations but individuals can go through any
| number or all in all different orders. Instead, it's used as a
| prescriptive tool to help track where someone is in the
| grieving process, which is misguided.
| autokad wrote:
| as someone who went through the 2001 period without a job for a
| very very long time, never ask how their job search is doing. If
| it was going well, I would have told you. talk about other things
| unless you have something meaningful to offer or they bring it
| up.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
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