[HN Gopher] Activision Blizzard Is Trying to Stop a Union Vote a...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Activision Blizzard Is Trying to Stop a Union Vote at Its Albany
       Office
        
       Author : hvs
       Score  : 159 points
       Date   : 2022-11-15 19:10 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.vice.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.vice.com)
        
       | kneebonian wrote:
       | Blizzard brought me some of the greatest joys of my childhood. I
       | remember playing warcraft 1 in all it's 8-bit glory, I loved W3,
       | I am playing my way through Diablo 2 again right now. But it just
       | feels like right around the time of WoW they started to change
       | and it became a priority on revenue over producing good games.
       | 
       | It seems like that is the inevitable result of any successful
       | creator(s) they labor out of love and a joy for what they make
       | and then once they get big enough MBA, managerial types, that are
       | focused on metrics and numbers come in and like a parasite feed
       | on the success of those who labored for love before eventually
       | leaving it an unrecognizable bloated rotting carcass of it's
       | former self.
       | 
       | Is there anyway to build something successfully that contributes
       | to the world without it being subsumed by management culture?
        
         | andruc wrote:
         | Look to companies that never go public
        
       | hayst4ck wrote:
       | Unionization is the 2nd amendment of labor law.
       | 
       | The 2nd amendment exists because every human has a right to
       | sacrifice themselves meaningfully to fight tyranny. Guns are a
       | proxy for power, and the 2nd amendment says that citizens have a
       | right to some power. Since citizens have a right to some power,
       | our government cannot get too tyrannical because there would be
       | consequences.
       | 
       | The right to unionize is the right to use the threat of force
       | (collective bargaining) against tyrants (CEOs), exactly like the
       | 2nd amendment is the right to use threat of force (use of guns)
       | against tyrants (people who rule as kings).
       | 
       | Unions are the representation of the idea that employees should
       | be able to exercise meaningful power over their CEOs, in
       | particular to demand better wages and conditions.
       | 
       | Without collective bargaining, why would a CEO ever have to
       | compromise or negotiate except with other CEOs? If multiple
       | companies acted like a cartel, how would employees be able to
       | fight that without collective bargaining?
       | 
       | Why are wages generally proportional to the job, and not
       | proportional to a companies profits?
       | 
       | Just like in software, the structure can be sound, while the
       | implementation is poor. I think a lot of the problems people have
       | with unions are implementation detail problems rather than
       | structural flaws.
        
         | dudus wrote:
         | Not sure why you are doing mental gymnastics to justify
         | unionizing is a constitution right by conflating it with the
         | 2nd amendment when the 1st amendment already guarantees the
         | freedom of assembly which is widely understood to support
         | unions.
        
           | kevingadd wrote:
           | I interpreted it more as them explaining the societal value
           | of unions via equating it with the 2nd amendment, i.e. 'they
           | do these valuable things for us'. Not 'this is why we have
           | that right'
        
             | hayst4ck wrote:
             | It was more of an, if you support one, one which many
             | people hold as part of their political identity, you should
             | support the other.
        
         | chmod600 wrote:
         | An interesting analogy.
         | 
         | It's hard to follow though, because the Second Amendment has
         | been held as an individual right (with some dissenting
         | perspectives, of course), while unionization is inherently
         | collective.
        
         | VancouverMan wrote:
         | What do you propose should be done when unions themselves
         | acquire enough power and influence to begin to act in a
         | tyrannical manner?
         | 
         | We've seen this happen with public sector unions in various
         | places, for example.
         | 
         | Despite the employees having quite safe and comfortable working
         | conditions, despite them being quite well compensated, and
         | despite them even being able to have some input (via voting)
         | over who their bosses are, it's not uncommon for these sorts of
         | unions to impose varying degrees of disruption just to try to
         | get even more money or benefits out of already over-taxed
         | societies.
         | 
         | These sorts of unions and their members never seem to care much
         | about the negative effects that public transit, public
         | education, and other artificial work disruptions/shutdowns may
         | have on society at large.
        
         | throwaway742 wrote:
         | "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered;
         | any attempts to disarm the people must be stopped, by force if
         | necessary"
        
       | worik wrote:
       | In New Zealand video game workers have no employment rights.
       | Along with workers on film sets
       | 
       | We call it the "Warner Brothers' Law"
        
         | dangerboysteve wrote:
         | I would have thought it would have been called the Peter
         | Jackson Law.
        
           | worik wrote:
           | Hobbit Law sometimes:
           | https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/01/29/78965/the-hobbit-
           | law-t...
           | 
           | The actual law: https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2010/0
           | 120/latest/whol...
        
         | bovermyer wrote:
         | I remember back when I was a level designer for a New Zealand
         | video game company, I was paid $150 NZD per day, and that was
         | my entire compensation. No benefits. That was twenty years ago,
         | though.
        
           | worik wrote:
           | The dispute that started the process to change the law was
           | (if my memory serves) over a "model maker" making $NZ17 an
           | hour back in 2010. Hardly big money.
           | 
           | https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-
           | propose...
        
         | thinkmcfly wrote:
         | Peter Jackson's thumb
        
           | FredPret wrote:
           | Or middle finger
        
       | Lev1a wrote:
       | At this point, it would be better for all those involved [1] if
       | _the corporate entity_ called Activision-Blizzard was burnt to
       | the ground and a new games company was built in its stead, with
       | actually competent managers [2], a unionized labor force and
       | actually enforced zero-tolerance policies on abuse of all kinds
       | among some other nice-to-haves.
       | 
       | [1]: Obviously not Kotick and the rest of the scum, who not only
       | tolerated but even engaged in the "alleged" instances of all
       | manners of abuse for years. I actually wouldn't mind if they
       | provided themselves as kindling on that corporate bonfire after
       | having their golden parachutes cut away to pay
       | damages/"reparations" to their victims.
       | 
       | [2]: ie. with at least a background in games development, not how
       | to best financially screw their workers.
        
         | bovermyer wrote:
         | Microsoft should buy Activision-Blizzard, fully separate
         | Activision from Blizzard, assign Kotick to work at a one-man
         | game studio in Alaska or something, and completely rebuild
         | senior leadership at Blizzard.
        
           | danaris wrote:
           | Yes, because what we need is _more_ consolidation...
        
             | Sakos wrote:
             | It's Activision Blizzard. That acquisition is just totally
             | irrelevant based on every metric except maybe revenue. AB
             | is primarily CoD. I'll take some minor consolidation over
             | Kotick and his cronies keeping their jobs after what they
             | did to the women working there, particularly the one who
             | _committed suicide_ because of them. I want AB to burn to
             | the ground, but I 'll take the current management being
             | replaced as a consolation prize.
        
           | endemic wrote:
           | Kotick'll get his golden parachute. Don't worry about _him_!
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | hilyen wrote:
       | If only our government wasn't beholden to corporate power, they'd
       | enforce the union busting laws. They know that if enough big
       | companies become unionized, the workers would be able to exert
       | democratic corporate power and influence government.
        
         | pyuser583 wrote:
         | Don't forget that the interests of unions are often the same
         | interest as the employers.
         | 
         | My daughter has special needs, and we want to send her to a
         | nearby public school. But the school isn't in our district. So
         | we have to pay for private school.
         | 
         | Teachers unions fought tooth and nail to prevent cross district
         | enrollment using arguments from the 19th century.
        
         | JTbane wrote:
         | Agreed, also there were several high-profile reports of
         | retaliation (Starbucks, et al) against union members. While
         | they might have been settled out of court, it is not a good
         | outlook for labor rights.
        
       | AlexandrB wrote:
       | I adored Blizzard's output for ~20 years - I have every
       | collectors edition they released from Warcraft III to Overwatch -
       | but I'm basically done. The scandals, the shitty monetization,
       | and the half-baked products all point to a radically different
       | culture and company than the one that released Starcraft in 1998.
       | No king reigns forever.
        
         | w0m wrote:
         | I'm not sure i 100% grok the OW2 backlash we're seeing at the
         | moment. It's a f2p game and has a middling reward model for the
         | battle pass. That's pitch fork worthy now?
        
           | ajkjk wrote:
           | The OW2 backlash was "you re-released a game with almost no
           | changes for a bunch of money and you want us to just.. buy
           | it?"
           | 
           | Although to be fair I guess that's what CoD does every year.
           | Hmm.
           | 
           | But Blizzard has been spending its goodwill for years. Ever
           | since, I think, ever WoW expansion was worse and more pay-to-
           | win than the last.
        
             | streblo wrote:
             | > "you re-released a game with almost no changes for a
             | bunch of money and you want us to just.. buy it?"
             | 
             | Except it's free to play
        
               | gwill wrote:
               | heroes used to be released and everyone would get them.
               | now there's a pay/play a LOT to unlock mechanic. same
               | goes to cosmetics.
        
               | ajkjk wrote:
               | Oh yeah true. But i think everyone felt they were just
               | being screwed with though.
        
               | belval wrote:
               | Someone who didn't pay for OW1 might have no ground to
               | complain, but in my case I paid for OW1 which now doesn't
               | exist and I am left with OW2 which locks away any kind of
               | progression unless I pay.
               | 
               | It's a bait and switch and the community is rightfully
               | angry. If they wanted to make a f2p OW they could've
               | released OW2 as a standalone, except they knew no one
               | would have migrated so instead they killed the old one.
        
             | danaris wrote:
             | Do they brick all previous iterations of CoD whenever they
             | put out a new one?
             | 
             | My understanding is that they shut down the OW1 servers
             | after OW2 came out...
        
               | goosedragons wrote:
               | No they don't. They aren't even shutting down the free to
               | play CoD: Warzone 1 when 2.0 releases. I can still play
               | CoD games I bought on PS3, online. But somehow OW1 had to
               | go.
        
               | pests wrote:
               | A day before OW2 came out!
        
           | AlexandrB wrote:
           | I quit OW when role queue was introduced. It felt like
           | Blizzard was forcing a certain "meta", and while it might
           | have been necessary for high-level play it seemed awfully
           | restrictive at n00b level I played at. It didn't help that
           | Mercy, who I played a lot, was balanced to be "not fun"
           | around the same time.
           | 
           | For me OW2 commits the same major sin that Warcraft 3
           | Reforged did. Replacing its predecessor with no option to
           | play the older game as it was. I understand not wanting to
           | split the community, but if someone doesn't like OW2's 5v5,
           | or monetization, or whatever, their only option is to quit.
           | 
           | Also, given that OW2 made every cosmetic more expensive to
           | acquire, it's only natural that people would draw comparisons
           | and get mad.
        
           | bastardoperator wrote:
           | I think most people expected more and instead got less is the
           | gist of the situation. I'm pretty surprised they released a
           | game with less features, the same maps, and didn't deliver on
           | many of the promises.
        
             | willis936 wrote:
             | Indeed.
             | 
             | I played a final 40 hours of OW1 just before OW2 came out
             | then played 40 hours of OW2. 5v5 in its current state has
             | problematic balancing issues, but I will set those aside
             | with the assumption that they'll eventually be fixed. I
             | will also set aside the total destruction of the metagame
             | as that is their business department's plan.
             | 
             | The real scandal with OW2 is that they removed all
             | performance feedback. No more being on fire, no more end-
             | game cards where you could give kudos to a player on either
             | team. In its place is nothing and there is no business
             | justification for it. Defeats are crushing, victories are
             | hollow. No levels or loot boxes. I can't ask my friends to
             | come back and play because it's just bad. I'm just not
             | going to play anymore.
        
           | gigaflop wrote:
           | The original Overwatch would release new heroes for free, and
           | cosmetics for that hero would be available for random
           | drops/purchase just like any other cosmetic item.
           | 
           | In OW2, the new heroes are on tier 55 of the battlepass, if
           | you're a free-to-play user. If you buy the pass, you unlock
           | the hero for play instantly. As far as I know, there is no
           | word on hero availability for those who do neither, for when
           | the pass duration runs out.
           | 
           | Having played the first game, the monetization model of the
           | second feels like a slap in the face. They've added new
           | categories of worthless junk cosmetics to pad things out. It
           | feels like they _looked_ at other battlepass models, and
           | threw a bunch of random shit together to pad it out.
           | 
           | But hey, if you don't want to grind too much, you can always
           | buy the Battlepass +20 package, and knock out the first 20
           | tiers instantly!
        
             | kmeisthax wrote:
             | The funny thing is, Overwatch 1 monetization wasn't any
             | better. They were notorious for popularizing[0] loot boxes
             | in paid games and got flak for it.
             | 
             | [0] Not "inventing". TF2 was the OG "loot boxes in paid
             | games" game, and mobile F2P was already awash with loot
             | boxes.
        
               | gigaflop wrote:
               | Blizzard made it big, EA followed suit, and we ended up
               | with lawsuits over loot boxes :)
        
             | pests wrote:
             | > no word on hero availability for those who do neither,
             | for when the pass duration runs out.
             | 
             | I heard some rumors that hero's will be unlockable via
             | challenges in seasons after they were released.
        
           | jchw wrote:
           | One thing notable about the way Blizzard has been operating
           | lately is that they remove the existing thing when updating
           | the old thing. I've heard you automatically get "upgraded" to
           | Warcraft III reforged if you have it installed and are logged
           | into Battle.net. I hear Overwatch 1 is similarly wiped out
           | and no longer playable.
           | 
           | The thing that's weird is, I don't think this is normal at
           | all. On Nintendo's end, you can still play Splatoon 2 just
           | fine even though Splatoon 3 came out, even on multiplayer.
           | Multiplayer games often have a long life after they're
           | superceded, even if it's a smaller contingent. If you boot up
           | Quake 3 Arena or Unreal Tournament 2004, you can see there
           | are still players online pretty much always, even if it's a
           | small contingent.
           | 
           | The only good reason I can think of for utterly axing old
           | games is so that you don't have to compete with them. Why buy
           | Reforged for $40 when you could get the original better
           | Warcraft III on GoG? (You can't, of course; you can only get
           | Warcraft I and II on GoG, at least now.) In case of
           | Overwatch, they WOULD have to continue to run the servers.
           | But surely, the majority of players would switch to the new
           | game anyway, right?
           | 
           | My opinion should be taken as a grain of salt because
           | Warcraft III is one of the last games I really liked that
           | much from Blizzard, to be honest. But still, something stinks
           | over at Activision Blizzard, and it's somehow not just Bobby
           | Kotick.
        
             | SpaceManNabs wrote:
             | WCIII TFT is quite easily blizzard's greatest game simply
             | because of the world editor.
             | 
             | I have played a bit of WoW, SCII, and Overwatch, and
             | nothing will come close to finding a new custom game Sunday
             | morning at 2 am and having fun with a random lobby.
             | 
             | The "melee" (standard mode) matches were great too.
             | 
             | I have played a lot of games and genres and nothing will
             | ever top that experience for me.
        
             | tylerhou wrote:
             | I think there is a reasonable explanation for removing OW1.
             | Queue times were already a huge problem (which is a large
             | reason why they moved to one tank, as nobody wanted to play
             | tank). Keeping around OW1 would have fragmented the player
             | base and would have hurt the OW2 launch.
             | 
             | That said, there are plenty of more cynical reasons why
             | Blizzard removed OW1 which are likely also true...
        
               | gigaflop wrote:
               | I have no sources on hand and no desire to find any, but
               | I think that OW2 was a partial refactor of OW1, if that
               | makes sense. They'd always planned to sunset OW1 for the
               | release of 2.
               | 
               | Ages ago, there was a large update to OW1, which I
               | believe had something to do with 'readiness' for OW2 in
               | the form of major engine changes, etc. Nothing was really
               | _new_ after that patch, but it was massive, and may have
               | actually been a full reinstall. Memory is flaky there,
               | and I don 't want to look for details while at work.
               | 
               | I'd bet $1 that the megapatch (and patches since) would
               | have been designed with OW2 in mind, since OW2 took a
               | long time in the oven. Extrapolating a bit, I think of it
               | as running the OW2 engine in OW1 compatibility mode, or
               | something.
        
               | LawTalkingGuy wrote:
               | Sure, that's their motives of course - to move people to
               | a newer game and not have any distractions like lingering
               | old stuff.
               | 
               | If you only played for free then it may sting but you
               | have no right to compensation, only to annoyed venting.
               | 
               | But people are saying they paid $60 for it. They have a
               | right to compensation. Moreover, it feels like this
               | should not only be handled by individual damages related
               | to the value of the product but also a fine or punitive
               | damages related to what they thought they would gain from
               | the scheme.
        
               | lghh wrote:
               | But I paid for OW1, right? They don't come and repossess
               | my car when a new model comes out.
        
             | hotpotamus wrote:
             | I mean, that's the SaaS model, and I suppose it does make
             | sense for multiplayer games which require ongoing
             | maintenance, but I agree, it's not what I'm looking for for
             | my gaming.
        
               | jchw wrote:
               | It certainly isn't unprecedented, which is probably the
               | worst part of the whole thing. That said, I think that it
               | is at least a partial component of the OW2 backlash, so
               | it's hard to ignore here :(
        
         | jimbob45 wrote:
         | It's not just that the old guard are gone, it's that they've
         | been gone for a very long time. Here's a chart from 2011
         | showing where everyone went.
         | 
         | https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HZGjc0LkXXw/UYwB9YaXFRI/AAAAAAAAA...
        
           | willis936 wrote:
           | That chart must be from before 2011 because the wikipedia
           | entry for Flagship Studios (the single largest receiver of
           | Blizzard talent in the chart) says it went belly up in 2008.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship_Studios
        
             | goosedragons wrote:
             | There's lines leading out from Flagship Studios to where
             | people went next. Sims 3 didn't come out until 2009 so it's
             | post Flagship Studios.
        
           | Sakos wrote:
           | Guild Wars is the only game made by an "ex-Blizzard" staffed
           | studio that I feel has had any significant amount of success.
           | Just goes to show how much these things are collaborative
           | efforts that rely on a particular environment to come
           | together.
        
             | dudus wrote:
             | Marvel Snap is doing pretty well lately.
        
             | kevingadd wrote:
             | GW was very much a result of the founders attempting to
             | recreate all the good things (at least in their opinion)
             | about Blizzard's work environment without carrying over the
             | bad things. They put a lot of thought into things like code
             | ownership policies, schedules and even office floor plans.
        
             | jerglingu wrote:
             | Not quite the same as an entirely ex-Blizzard staffed group
             | of people, but Riot Games and League of Legends as well.
             | Tom Cadwell[0] was there from the very beginning of
             | League's life and has had considerable influence over the
             | development and growth of the game. Before that, he was on
             | Warcraft 3's development team and supposedly (supposedly
             | because I can't remember despite being on the War3 forums,
             | and can't find evidence of it) had a hand in developing its
             | fairly successful esports scene. And before that, he was
             | actually one of the first Starcraft pro gamers in the late
             | 90's, just before the explosion of esports in South Korea.
             | 
             | He's kind of a one-man army, but his influence definitely
             | has shaped the more popular games and industry landscape
             | today.
             | 
             | [0]: https://www.riotgames.com/en/who-we-are/riot-games-
             | leadershi...
        
             | AlexandrB wrote:
             | Guild Wars was great, arguably better than the sequel. I'm
             | glad the servers are still up.
        
             | throwaway742 wrote:
             | Obsidian and Fallout: New Vegas don't rate for you?
        
       | JamesBarney wrote:
       | I'm not usually pro-union, but if there is any industry that
       | needs to be unionized it's game development.
        
         | none_to_remain wrote:
         | Feels like the demand to be a Game Developer means they'll end
         | up with one of those setups where the union is big on putting
         | up a barrier to entry
        
           | AlexandrB wrote:
           | Is that better or worse than an industry that burns through
           | and discards young talent as standard operating procedure?
           | 
           | I would argue that the product would only improve if it's
           | harder to enter, but someone can have a 30 year career
           | instead of a 5 year crunchfest. Who knows though.
        
             | none_to_remain wrote:
             | I don't know! Don't intend to go into the field either way
             | so luckily I don't have to figure it out
        
           | kevingadd wrote:
           | There's already a big barrier to entry: low wages and even
           | entry-level roles demanding lots of experience
           | 
           | When I started in the industry I couldn't afford a bed on my
           | salary for about a year, and I only got my "in" by having a
           | lot of experience doing indie development during high school
           | and college - many people don't have the free time and
           | resources to build up that portfolio.
        
           | PuppyTailWags wrote:
           | Could you explain what you mean by this? How does demand to
           | be a game developer require the _union_ to put up barriers to
           | entry? And also, how does this compare with the demand to be
           | in hollywood vs the actor 's union?
        
             | jedberg wrote:
             | The actor's union is a huge barrier to entry. Any movie
             | that includes a union actor is not allowed to have non-
             | union actors if the budget is over some small amount (like
             | $2MM or something).
             | 
             | The only way to get into the union is to be nominated by
             | someone who is already in. The only way to get seen by
             | those people is to work in adjacent jobs to acting, or get
             | lucky and get on a small film with both union and non-union
             | actors.
             | 
             | Once you're in the union it's great. It's a great example
             | of how to form a union for creative people that mandates
             | minimum pay and working conditions but no maximum, allowing
             | for stars to get huge checks while making sure everyone
             | gets good conditions and living wages.
        
             | none_to_remain wrote:
             | Protection of incumbent union members from masses of
             | competitors.
             | 
             | Acting, stage acting, not Hollywood, is actually where I'm
             | most familiar with this through friends. If you want to be
             | an actor, move to NYC, and try to find a role, you get sent
             | to the back of the line at every audition and probably they
             | don't even get to you. There was another way in (this may
             | be outdated now) where you got points towards joining by
             | working for certain employers. That's why some of my
             | friends played characters for an abusive boss at a now
             | defunct space travel theme restaurant - just for points to
             | join the union
        
               | Dracophoenix wrote:
               | > space travel theme restaurant
               | 
               | Planet Hollywood?
        
               | michaelleslie wrote:
               | Sounds like Mars 2112 in Times Square.
        
             | Raidion wrote:
             | It's supply and demand. Kids don't grow up wanting to be
             | CRUD app developers, they grow up wanting to be game
             | developers. This means that working conditions are
             | notoriously bad (bad pay, terrible hours). To raise pay
             | they need to constrict supply, to constrict supply they
             | need to put up barriers to entry.
             | 
             | Actors union is a definite barrier to entry: you need to
             | either be a notable independent actor/performer (rare), get
             | a job on a SAG AFTRA because you have a talent that they
             | can't find in union (rare), or show that you've worked in
             | the field (non-union commercials/films) enough to be
             | notable. Then you need to apply, pay $3k, pay ~$200 a year
             | dues, and give up ~1.5% of all your contracts to the union.
             | Then you can't take a non-union job (again restricting the
             | talent pool).
             | 
             | I honestly don't see a ton of difference between the two:
             | both establish choke points and collective bargaining in
             | high demand fields to improve working conditions for the
             | people that are in the union.
        
         | guywithahat wrote:
         | Game developers are paid well above the average income for the
         | country and you work in an office where nobody would possibly
         | get hurt. Why would they need to be unionized over another
         | industry? Especially coming from someone who's not pro-union?
        
           | Tiktaalik wrote:
           | The game developers that are trying to unionize here are the
           | QA department, and their pay is not at all similar to
           | programmers and other game developers. Their pay is likely
           | closer to minimum wage than anything.
        
           | nitrixion wrote:
           | While they may make above average in the overall assessment
           | of income for a country, they make _well below_ average for
           | the type of work they are doing. Many game companies know
           | they can pay below market wages because of demand for the
           | jobs.
           | 
           | Source: When I quit game dev, I got a 60% raise and I was on
           | the higher end of the pay scale at that game dev job. I know
           | lead developers with nearly 10 years of experience making
           | under 70k in games. I frequently offer them roles that would
           | double their salary and they turn it down because they like
           | working in games.
        
             | throwayyy479087 wrote:
             | I bet they make less than warehouse workers per hour
        
           | lifthrasiir wrote:
           | Oh, I joined the union back when I was a gamedev precisely
           | because some employees (of the company's subsidiary, to be
           | clear on this matter) were not granted a paid vacation nor
           | remote work in spite of a heavy flood that almost paralyzed
           | the entire region. When you are not unionized _someone_ will
           | get hurt.
        
           | enasterosophes wrote:
           | Protection from abusive management is always going to be
           | important no matter how much you earn.
        
           | kevingadd wrote:
           | "Game developers are paid well above the average income for
           | the country and you work in an office where nobody would
           | possibly get hurt" is a claim that falls apart if you do much
           | research. The industry is full of horror stories of people
           | ending up hospitalized as a result of aggressive schedules
           | (salaried roles with no OT pay or constraints on time! people
           | sleeping in the office, working 6-7 day weeks for months at a
           | time, etc!) and the pay really is NOT that competitive at
           | most studios. There are outliers that pay really well, mostly
           | ones backed by silicon valley investment money, but the
           | median is not that good.
        
           | DEADMEAT wrote:
           | The game industry is notorious for expecting way, way above
           | 40hrs/wk of work, especially as deadlines to release
           | approach. Stories of game devs sleeping under their desks at
           | night are shockingly common.
        
           | JamesBarney wrote:
           | I know a few non-union construction workers, and a few game
           | developers. And the construction workers seem so much less
           | abused than the game devs. (though the game devs do make more
           | money)
        
             | wccrawford wrote:
             | I think the employers of carpenters have to be pretty aware
             | that a union is likely if they step too far out of line,
             | though. Game development companies don't really have that
             | threat yet. It's _possible_ , but it hasn't really happened
             | before.
        
             | willcipriano wrote:
             | The construction workers also generally benefit from living
             | in areas that they can afford to buy a home in. The game
             | dev has the higher salary but if you are living in a
             | apartment its of little consolation.
        
               | alistairSH wrote:
               | This doesn't make any sense.
               | 
               | The game developer could just move out to the suburbs and
               | commute alongside the construction worker (construction
               | happens downtown[1], and those workers sure as shit
               | aren't living anywhere nearby).
               | 
               | 1 - Pick your major city.
        
               | willcipriano wrote:
               | You get to escape the city if you work residential
               | construction and commute to the suburbs from a more rural
               | area.
        
               | Broken_Hippo wrote:
               | Only if you live in the city, and sometimes "the city" is
               | 45,000 people total. Sometimes it is smaller.
               | Construction places exist lots of places.
               | 
               | You don't just get to go to new places just because you
               | are a construction worker. I think you might be viewing
               | it through a somewhat romantic lens.
        
               | [deleted]
        
         | googlryas wrote:
         | Unionization is fine, but I think a better outcome would be
         | these individuals having enough self-respect to move to other
         | areas of the industry where their skills are still relevant,
         | and they are not abused but are actually treated with dignity.
         | 
         | Though, it might be easy for me to say this, because I
         | naturally delineate my passion from my paycheck.
        
           | skyyler wrote:
           | Are you actually suggesting that abused employees should just
           | get a different job?
           | 
           | I'm trying to figure out how else to interpret "move to other
           | areas of the industry".
        
           | kevingadd wrote:
           | As it happens, people churn out of the game industry - or at
           | least individual studios - quite frequently due to these bad
           | work environments! But due to the massive numbers of people
           | who want to work in games, they just get replaced and the
           | cycle of abuse continues.
           | 
           | The fix is to fix the workplaces.
        
       | skyyler wrote:
       | >existing legal precedent fails to account for the uniquely
       | collaborative nature of game development
       | 
       | This argument is very shaky. Aren't Hollywood films the product
       | of union labour?
        
         | yamtaddle wrote:
         | Pro sports, too. Talk about collaboration.
         | 
         | [EDIT] Incidentally, I think there's some interesting cross-
         | over here between Hollywood and video games: it's my
         | understanding that part (though only part) of why modern movies
         | lean so heavily on CGI/VFX is that that's one of the only major
         | parts of movie-making that's _not_ very, very unionized, along
         | with that industry 's cousin and the topic of this article,
         | video games. I'd expect that when one of those unionizes, the
         | other won't be far behind.
        
         | SQueeeeeL wrote:
         | Obviously, but these arguments are basically just there to give
         | a semblance of authenticity to the illegal union busting. A lot
         | of rhetoric in these spaces just serve to confuse and enable
         | anti-worker ideologes to feel a sense of legitimacy in denying
         | people maternal leave and decent healthcare
        
         | pyuser583 wrote:
         | Aren't they literally saying the law isn't on their side?
        
         | xbar wrote:
         | Yes.
        
       | VoodooJuJu wrote:
       | Goodbye Blizzard. No king rules forever.
        
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