[HN Gopher] Show HN: Rethinking Tabs in Firefox
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Show HN: Rethinking Tabs in Firefox
        
       Author : Sujeto
       Score  : 109 points
       Date   : 2022-11-15 13:09 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (madprops.github.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (madprops.github.io)
        
       | warinukraine wrote:
       | Tree Style Tabs. Changed my life.
        
       | orliesaurus wrote:
       | I love that you are rethinking tabs, I definitely see more people
       | coming up with alternatives to this problem, eventually something
       | will emerge as the new standard.
       | 
       | Don't get me wrong, there is nothing bad about the current
       | implementation of tabs for the regular user, but when you are on
       | 100-150 tabs then you know the tabs solution doesn't scale
        
         | wintermutestwin wrote:
         | >there is nothing bad about the current implementation of tabs
         | for the regular user
         | 
         | Horizontal tabs are ridiculously bad given standard screen
         | dimensions.
        
       | wintermutestwin wrote:
       | A couple initial thoughts as a Sidebery user that keeps ~100 tabs
       | open:
       | 
       | 1. The whole point of vertical tabs is that horizontal browser
       | space is "cheap." Why not keep the tab list visible? Having it be
       | a dropdown adds an unnecessary step.
       | 
       | 2. Horizontal (Sidebery style) pinned tabs that just show the
       | site icon are much cleaner. I have a row (8-12 tabs depending on
       | how wide I drag the tab bar)of frequently used sites pinned at
       | the top of my tab list.
       | 
       | 3. It doesn't look like you have right-click move to window
       | functionality, which is critical for my workflow. If you add it,
       | be sure to make it work with the Titler extension so you can work
       | with window names.
       | 
       | I'm glad you didn't put energy into tab trees - I think they are
       | a waste of space. I have a window for each general category of
       | tabs.
        
         | malnourish wrote:
         | I migrated from Sidebery to Tab Stash [0]. I found the user
         | experience to be a bit more streamlined; I don't find myself
         | missing the tree-style structure, but the stashes it provides
         | are a good replacement.
         | 
         | [0]: https://github.com/josh-berry/tab-stash
        
         | SpaghettiCthulu wrote:
         | I have >1000 tabs open and probably many that I haven't looked
         | at in >6 months now (most are discarded using Auto Tab
         | Discard). I This many tabs causes every tab management
         | extension I've tried to be unusably slow. Even the Firefox
         | multi account containers popup usually takes around 2 full
         | seconds to load, presumably because it's counting the number of
         | tabs for each container (a feature I would happily disable if
         | possible) via a horrendously slow API.
        
           | Cshelton wrote:
           | Try multiple windows. I use Tree Style Tabs extension, and
           | have around 1,700 tabs open across three windows. Yes, it can
           | be slow.. sometimes.. but for the most part.. everything is
           | pretty smooth still!
           | 
           | Yes, it's crazy.. but this is essentially my bookmark system.
           | I take backups of the "session" so if something did happen, I
           | can recover all of them. And every few years, I quickly go
           | through them and start afresh. Bookmark what might still be
           | relevant, and discard the rest. It works for me
        
           | disruptthelaw wrote:
           | Tab suspender is your friend
        
           | weaksauce wrote:
           | I wonder if my extension would work faster for you. I built
           | it to be quick and simple so i can find a tab visually across
           | many windows. basic features: click on a link to go to the
           | tab, groups the tabs by windows, shows the favicon next to
           | it, shows the tabs that are making noise, and allows you to
           | close the tab via middle mouse button. cmd(or ctrl on
           | pc)-shift-e opens it up in a tab. I'd be curious if you do
           | try it to see how fast it is.
           | 
           | https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tabist/hdjegjggiog.
           | ..
           | 
           | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tabist/
           | 
           | https://www.github.com/fiveNinePlusR/tabist
        
         | RHSeeger wrote:
         | > horizontal browser space is "cheap."
         | 
         | I keep my browser window ~ 1/2 my screen width. If it grew, it
         | would overlap other windows I am using.
        
           | pessimizer wrote:
           | That sounds like you're saying that for people who don't do
           | that, horizontal browser space is _very_ cheap and can be
           | reduced by half.
        
       | woojoo666 wrote:
       | > Tabs are orded by last visit date.
       | 
       | > Your freshest tabs are always at the top.
       | 
       | I think I'd hate this. Every time you switch tabs, the order
       | would change. This ruins the spatial organization I have in my
       | mind. When doing research and opening tons of tabs, I have a
       | general idea of where each tab is, letting me jump between pages
       | quickly, even faster than using tab search.
       | 
       | There's a reason why when you zoom out to see all your windows on
       | Windows (using win+tab key), Mac OSX (using mission control), or
       | Linux, the order of the windows generally stays the same.
        
       | rpwilcox wrote:
       | This is very cool. Two things I wish: * can it be a sidebar,
       | instead or in addition to this popup? Then it could be up all the
       | time, or how wide I want * I wish it did tabs across windows -
       | this only finds tabs in the current window, but I have multiple
       | windows of multiple tabs open on my machine. (So of course I
       | can't find anything, yes...)
       | 
       | But this is very neat and exciting!!
        
       | elischleifer wrote:
       | not sure what I am looking at here.
        
       | moffkalast wrote:
       | You've gotta be kidding me, yet another system for grouping
       | things that makes navigation take twice as many clicks and mouse
       | moves.
       | 
       | I really don't understand what's wrong with you people, first you
       | came for the taskbars, now for our tabs. Will you never stop
       | until everything's completely collapsed and hidden several clicks
       | away? WHY?!? I can't believe this stupid trend that's forcing its
       | way into all parts of UI these days. Yes, let's make everything
       | useless because D E S I G N.
        
       | divan wrote:
       | Why people still buying the concept of tabs?
       | 
       | Tabs make sense for document viewers. Web browsers are not
       | hypertext documents viewers anymore. They are full-fledged
       | virtual machines for apps (only those that can be written in JS
       | and use typesetting engine as a UI platform - which is nuts, but
       | okay).
       | 
       | The point is, web apps, like normal apps, require proper window
       | manager. Why the hell I should not be able to switch to app when
       | popup alert is shown in another app? Why I can't put two apps
       | side by side inside this VM? Why can't I switch between web apps
       | opened in browser in a similar way as in KDE, Windows or MacOS
       | (Stage Manager type switching would be great).
       | 
       | There so much space for experimentation here. But no, we keep
       | pretending that web apps are documents that need to be shown in
       | tabs.
        
         | Nullabillity wrote:
         | Nobody's preventing you from popping out tabs into separate
         | windows. In fact, for a while KWin allowed you to tab any
         | windows.. sadly that feature seems to have been lost somewhere
         | around the Plasma 4 -> Plasma 5 transition...
        
         | morsch wrote:
         | App vs document is a false dichotomy. I don't know about your
         | usage, but I tend to have a small handful of open tabs that are
         | on the app end of the spectrum (chat, email, audio/video,
         | that's about it), a magnitude more tabs that are on the
         | document end (documentation, blog posts, news articles) and the
         | same magnitude that are in-between (shopping, project
         | management stuff, hacker news).
         | 
         | The app tabs are the ones that profit the least from the
         | hypertext paradigm; other tabs tend to spawn new sub tabs which
         | are more or less short lived. I use tree style tabs to manage
         | that.
         | 
         | It's easy enough to use my actual window manager to manage the
         | app style tabs, by putting them in their own window. But for
         | the most part, this hasn't been necessary. The Firefox popout
         | video player has been more useful than I would have thought,
         | though.
        
           | divan wrote:
           | > App vs document is a false dichotomy.
           | 
           | Could you support this with arguments?
        
             | morsch wrote:
             | There are websites that are very much like an app, like
             | Gmail or Slack. 20 years ago, most people used standalone
             | applications for these.
             | 
             | Other websites are not app-like at all: Wikipedia articles,
             | blogs like substack, API documentation; these are
             | documents. And they still make up a significant portion of
             | my browsing -- so yes, my browser is still a hypertext
             | viewer. YMMV, like I said, maybe you mostly have apps open;
             | I don't.
             | 
             | And many websites are in-between: project management tools
             | like JIRA and shopping websites like Amazon are document-
             | based (tickets, product pages), but offer actions on top of
             | those documents, like an app would have. They also have
             | external links like, you know, hypertext.
             | 
             | And the latter is true for even the app-iest of apps, which
             | makes it useful to have them in the browser (for the same
             | reason, some desktop apps end up embedding browsers). And
             | conversely, even the document websites have actions that
             | are more or less central to the experience, e.g. Wikipedia
             | has editing, blogs have comments.
             | 
             | So there isn't a clear line between app and document,
             | that's a false dichotomy.
        
               | divan wrote:
               | Thank you, but I have to disagree here.
               | 
               | Yes, it's true that _sometimes_ the line between document
               | and app is blurred. But I would argue it 's blurred
               | exactly because we use things designed for document to
               | make apps.
               | 
               | Take "links" for example. In web apps, practically every
               | action item is a "link" - either a "<a href=" or <button
               | " that opens another link. But it's not because these
               | things are links - it's because there is no other option
               | to do it without links. If all is you have is a hammer,
               | everything becomes a nail. In a normal app (made in a UI
               | framework designed for that, and not in hypertext
               | engine), instead of links you would use events or
               | function calls or some similar concept.
               | 
               | Likewise, "external" links. You can open external links
               | from normal apps. You don't need to make app a HTML page
               | for that.
               | 
               | So it's not a false dichotomy. If you have ever used
               | desktop/tablet/mobile apps that have blog/comments
               | functionality, you unlikely to think about those screens
               | and functionality "as a document". No, it's just another
               | screen of the app, that renders pixels and handles user
               | input. You only think about it as a document when
               | everything you have is "HTML documents".
        
               | morsch wrote:
               | I totally think that slate star codex blog post I read is
               | a document, even though there is an app-like comment
               | function I don't use. And I totally think Wikipedia is a
               | bunch of documents, even though there is an app-like edit
               | functionality that I rarely access. And I totally think
               | Google is a service for (among other things) looking up
               | recipes, which I think are documents, even though they
               | sometimes have an app-like button to re-calculate serving
               | size.
               | 
               | On the flipside, I think Whatsapp Web is an app and not a
               | document, even though I know that it's implemented in
               | what was traditionally a document framework.
        
         | nocman wrote:
         | > Web browsers are not hypertext documents viewers anymore.
         | 
         | I disagree. They still very much fulfill that purpose.
         | 
         | > we keep pretending that web apps are documents that need to
         | be shown in tabs.
         | 
         | Browsers do _both_ web apps and documents (and honestly, blur
         | the lines between them all of the time).
         | 
         | Also, I for one wholeheartedly _want_ tabs for both of those
         | use cases (and I don 't think I am by any means alone in
         | wanting that).
        
           | divan wrote:
           | > I disagree. They still very much fulfill that purpose.
           | 
           | There is a thing called web-development, emerged in the last
           | couple of decades. It's whole purpose is to develop apps
           | using this hypertext document rendering engine. You're not
           | wrong by saying that browsers' main job is still rendering
           | HTML documents. But most of the web pages that people use day
           | to day are not "documents", they are apps.
           | 
           | Here are tabs I have open at the moment:                  -
           | HN (board app, not a document)        - Soma.fm DefCon radion
           | (music streaming app, not a document)        - Facebook
           | (social network app, not a document)        - Eurosport
           | Player (video player, not a document)        - research paper
           | (PDF, document, but not HTML)        - another forum (board
           | app, not a document)        - Canva (graphics editing app,
           | not a document)        - Miro (whiteboard app, not a
           | document)
           | 
           | So you're disagreeing that those apps are apps and not the
           | documents?
        
             | gaws wrote:
             | > another forum
             | 
             | What's the forum?
        
               | divan wrote:
               | Some Flarum forum software I run, why?
        
         | stevewatson301 wrote:
         | There are niche operating systems (it was posted on HN but I
         | can't remember the name now) that consider application windows
         | and tabs as being one and equal; you can even have one window
         | that has tabs from different applications.
        
           | divan wrote:
           | I mean "tabs" is just one of many forms of hanlding multiple
           | windows. They make a lot of sense for document viewers and
           | alike. My claim is that browsers are so much bloa..^Wbigger
           | that that. There is no reason to limit web apps to that
           | document viewers type of window handling.
        
         | hbn wrote:
         | You can do most of this stuff by popping the tabs into separate
         | windows.
         | 
         | Is it really a better solution to have a window manager in an
         | app that's already in an OS with its own window manager?
         | 
         | Side-by-side tab tiling is an interesting idea to explore, a
         | lot of IDEs have done that for years. But I don't know about a
         | full-on window manager.
        
           | Izkata wrote:
           | > Side-by-side tab tiling is an interesting idea to explore,
           | a lot of IDEs have done that for years.
           | 
           | Firefox had this as an addon before Quantum. I used it often,
           | even with a tiling window manager, because the tab tiles
           | didn't have their own toolbars/etc - it saved a lot of space.
           | Its modern replacement isn't very useful, it just arranges
           | multiple windows into tiles, each with their own
           | toolbars/etc.
        
           | dahfizz wrote:
           | Every feature of the OS will eventually be re-implemented in
           | the browser. It will be slower and less convenient to use.
        
           | pmontra wrote:
           | Probably separate windows for the tabs deserving to be
           | promoted to apps and a tiling window manager would achieve
           | what GP wants. We have comments here on HN praising i3.
           | 
           | https://i3wm.org/
           | 
           | However the always open tabs I work with most of the time
           | work better in full screen mode on my 15" laptop. Sentry,
           | TeamCity, YouTrack, Bitbucket, AWS (more than one tab),
           | Google Cloud Console, the web apps I'm working on. Little
           | space for tiling.
        
         | tenebrisalietum wrote:
         | Well, in the early 00's when Firefox was starting to become a
         | thing and it introduced the usage of tabs, it really mattered
         | whether something was a local app or something that's primarily
         | the contents of another server fetched and displayed/processed
         | on your computer. It was useful to think of the browser be the
         | "Internet remote window".
         | 
         | Now, since basically everything is an Internet app, perhaps the
         | distinction between local and remote isn't too important
         | anymore for most people.
        
           | alias_neo wrote:
           | As a backend software engineer, most long-running terminals
           | on my machine are are often remote connections, and I don't
           | tend to use tabs there (and like to tile them with tmux).
           | 
           | Sounds like the the browser could behave much the same way
           | for me.
           | 
           | TL;DR: I agree.
        
         | Semaphor wrote:
         | The vast majority of my tabs are actually documents.
        
           | toastal wrote:
           | Yep. It's definitely both.
        
         | icedchai wrote:
         | What's stopping you from opening separate browser windows?
         | 
         | (I remember browsers before tabs. It was awful.)
        
           | divan wrote:
           | Nothing. That wasn't my question.
        
             | icedchai wrote:
             | Why does the browser need a window manager then? You can
             | run each "app" in its own window.
        
       | twobitshifter wrote:
       | I'm wondering if smart history might be the end solution for
       | tabs:
       | 
       | - Collapse history into start leaf and end nodes. The end nodes
       | are your tabs/state. The steps to navigate to a node are less
       | important for history. I don't need to know the url of the Google
       | page I used to get to fact X, what's important is the fact. (The
       | Google page won't stay the same anyways)
       | 
       | - Opening a new tab starts a new history tree, with a possible
       | parent tree.
       | 
       | Let me know if anyone wants to discuss this idea.
        
       | andrewla wrote:
       | I've increasingly found that my use of tabs is closely related to
       | the fact that back/forward navigation is unworkable in many
       | cases.
       | 
       | The most typical case is that I am looking at a list of things,
       | and I want to click on a result but if I hit back, I don't want
       | to wait an eternity for the page to reload -- if it even does;
       | more often than not something breaks in the back navigation and
       | the results I was looking at are not longer available or the
       | context has switched.
       | 
       | Basically I want cost-free backwards and forwards navigation, and
       | tabs are how you do that. But essentially I want that hidden from
       | me. I would much prefer if under the covers hitting back didn't
       | navigate you away from a page, it just keeps the page you are on
       | in a virtual tab in case you want to go back to it. Similarly,
       | clicking a link shouldn't navigate away from the page you're on,
       | but just put it in a virtual tab.
        
         | basch wrote:
         | That is exactly how I have always used tabs. It lets you
         | preload all your pages you want, and quickly inspect and
         | dismiss them. On a google search, I might middle click 7 of the
         | 10 links, and then immediately close 4 of them when they arent
         | what I wanted.
         | 
         | On hckrnews.com I can first put my brain in "which of these is
         | interesting to me mode", and then once they are all open,
         | switch to reading.
         | 
         | I would prefer that a page like facebook, twitter, reddit only
         | ever go back to the top when the refresh button is pressed. But
         | since none of them behave as a web page should, it forces you
         | to open everything in a new tab to preserve the page state.
         | Middle click, close tab is the replacement for link click,
         | back. And as others have said, browser back and forth is
         | destructive. As you navigate you lose information. The link is
         | still in history, but you have lost the relationship between
         | what order things were navigated to and from, and which page
         | led you to them.
         | 
         | There is a market for somebody to come around and completely
         | redesign the browser chrome paradigm, replacing back/forth,
         | history, tabs, and bookmarks with something more seamless that
         | preserves state, intent, relationship, and time.
         | 
         | There should be multiple ways to open something. Super
         | temporary, temporary, less temporary. There should be multiple
         | ways to close something, remove from history, keep in history,
         | minimize.
        
         | shrx wrote:
         | The reloading of the google/bing/whatever search results page
         | on backwards navigation is infuriating. I've been looking for
         | options to turn it off in firefox but no luck.
        
         | wintermutestwin wrote:
         | I open all links in a new tab. Back and forward are annoying
         | even if they did work.
        
         | the_gipsy wrote:
         | A browser/extension that saves a snapshot when you click a
         | link. When you click back, the snapshot is magically[1]
         | restored.
         | 
         | Hold my beer, I'm gonna try to "snapshot" with iframes or
         | something.
         | 
         | [1] I don't know if it's even possible, since this goes beyond
         | HTML, DOM, and memory; nowadays there might be a lot IO "open",
         | e.g. webcams, sound, websockets, etc.
        
         | savolai wrote:
         | Been thinking about this too
         | 
         | What would be the drawback to just show the page as it was
         | without reloading? Too much memory consumed when retaining too
         | much state from previous pages?
        
           | airstrike wrote:
           | What if the page told you only what to change in the current
           | page as you navigated to links in the same domain? Like
           | browsing through git commits.
           | 
           | A pain to implement but kind of an interesting experiment
        
         | jonchang wrote:
         | Firefox and other browsers use an optimization called the
         | bfcache (back-forward cache) that is intended to do exactly
         | that. However, lots of web developers write their pages in a
         | way that defeats the bfcache optimization. Moreover, bloated
         | large page sizes (including JS objects) will make the bfcache
         | more likely to evict entries.
         | 
         | Compare using back/forward on a boring HTML site like Hacker
         | News, and to something like say, the Google Search results
         | page. What's funny is that Google itself has a page on how to
         | optimize your website for bfcache implementations, with some
         | Chromium-specific tweaks, but the left hand doesn't talk to the
         | right at Google, so we're stuck with lots of full page
         | refreshes on Google properties.
         | 
         | https://web.dev/bfcache/
        
           | stemlord wrote:
           | >lots of web developers write their pages in a way that
           | defeats the bfcache optimization
           | 
           | Yes, webapps, with their own internalized breadcrumb system.
        
         | curun1r wrote:
         | Just adding on...
         | 
         | Browsers model back/forward linearly whereas the mental model I
         | want is more tree-like. If I end up going back a few times and
         | then click a link in the same tab, I lose all ability to go
         | forward again. So a lot of my tabs are the result of using
         | "duplicate tab" so I can take actions that destroy the
         | back/forwards state without losing the original.
         | 
         | If we're going to have a browser implement instant, reliable
         | back/forward, I'd also like to see some simple way of choosing
         | from all forward actions I've previously taken. Because my
         | browsing is so often non-linear.
        
           | andrewla wrote:
           | Strongly agree -- this is where tabs as artifacts becomes
           | useful. I don't necessarily feel that we need to eliminate
           | tabs in favor of "virtual" tabs but that we can contain the
           | "tab explosion" problem. One thing I do frequently is do a
           | middle-click-on-back-button to navigate backwards but keep
           | the current tab open; the enhancement here would be that this
           | would be a cost-free and non-context-losing operation.
        
         | soupfordummies wrote:
         | I've never thought of this but you're spot on.
         | 
         | I'd say that's about 50% of my usage and the other 50% is
         | hoarding every HN story to later bookmark and never revisit :P
        
           | airstrike wrote:
           | Wouldn't it be easier to just upvote or favorite stories and
           | then check your list of upvoted / favorites?
        
             | dsr_ wrote:
             | That's a solution that works on HN. Browser tabs in the
             | background work on the whole web.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | joshspankit wrote:
         | Came here to say something aligned with that:
         | 
         | I typically keep one window for each "navigation group".
         | 
         | Answering a single question, understanding a specific topic,
         | finding the product I'm going to purchase (then purchasing it).
         | That way I once I'm done I can close the whole window without
         | looking at the contents of the other tabs (and risking (more)
         | rabbit holes)
        
       | WhyNotHugo wrote:
       | An advantage of the tab bar on top is that it's always visible. I
       | can glance quickly and find if that tab I'm looking for is to the
       | left or to the right and use ctrl+tab or ctrl+shift+tab. Or maybe
       | there's just a few tabs, so I can jump around with alt+1, alt+2,
       | etc.
       | 
       | Having a menu that needs to be deployed makes the whole process
       | slower -> I first have to open the menu, _and then_ I can start
       | deciding which way I want to switch.
       | 
       | It doesn't seem like a big deal, but when you use the browser for
       | hours a day it is, because there's this additional cognitive
       | cycle of having to request information to be displayed first --
       | rather than have it always present.
       | 
       | Finally, the tabs on the bar on the top have virtually infinite
       | surface and are super easy to click. You see, a 100x100px button
       | has a defined surface where you have to point and click. The
       | smaller the surface, the harder it is to click. But a button at
       | the border of the screen has one dimension infinite: I don't have
       | to aim accurately on the Y axis, I can move my mouse beyond the
       | top of the screen and will still hit the tab.
        
         | stemlord wrote:
         | I like always visible top tabs but personally ctrl+tab has
         | always been bs. Hitting it 10 times then ctrl+shift+tab once
         | more because I miscalculated has never been faster than using
         | the mouse
        
           | frosted-flakes wrote:
           | Enable the Most Recently Used ordering. That way you won't
           | have to press Ctrl+Tab more than once or twice, because most
           | of the time you don't need to tabs at the back of the stack.
           | Imagine if the Alt+Tab switcher worked like most browsers--it
           | would be pretty useless.
           | 
           | This is not an option in Chrome, for some unexplicable reason
           | (Chrome has marked it as wontfix)., and it's the main reason
           | I use Firefox. It's possible to hack around it with
           | extensions and opening the Chrome extensions settings XML
           | file and manually setting the Ctrl+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab
           | shortcuts, but it's fragile and annoying to set up, and has
           | some odd behaviours in certain circumstances.
        
             | stevage wrote:
             | I have always hated the orders you describe. Means you need
             | to mentally keep track of how long since you used each tab,
             | and there is no deterministic way of getting to a specific
             | tab other than slowly tabbing until you randomly arrive
             | there.
        
             | ivarru wrote:
             | It's a bit weird at first, but think the Chrome extension
             | "Most Recent Used Tab Stack" works ok. It keeps the tabs
             | sorted by moving the current tab to the left. That being
             | said, I also prefer Firefox -- mainly because of its
             | container extensions.
        
           | wwarek wrote:
           | Switching from Chrome the most annoying thing in FF was lack
           | of tab switching with Ctrl+<number>. Fortunately there are
           | extensions providing that. Works great for 5-6 tabs,
           | especially when it gets into muscle memory (not sure if
           | that's correct term in this case but what I mean is that
           | brain "knows" that ctrl+1 will be X and Ctrl+3 will be Y and
           | can switch between tabs without thinking of their actual
           | numbers)
        
             | m6w6 wrote:
             | It's ALT+N
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | And if you're a tab-hoarder,                  alt+1
               | ctrl+shift+tab
               | 
               | Goes to the rightmost tab
        
               | zck wrote:
               | alt-9 goes to the rightmost tab, as well.
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | I'll be damned. Best thing about being wrong on the
               | internet, somebody's always happy to help!
        
         | kkfx wrote:
         | Personally I've used TabCenter Redux and now Tab Center Reborn,
         | tabs on side allow to see titles no matter how many tabs we
         | have open, easy scrolling and grouping while not waste vertical
         | screen space, witch is rare on modern 19:9+ screens (while we
         | do not need much space on sides, since most screens are big
         | enough)...
        
       | trap_goes_hot wrote:
       | For those that liked the Classic windows taskbar that has been
       | removed in W11, I'd like to plug RetroBar -
       | https://github.com/dremin/RetroBar
        
       | TehShrike wrote:
       | Maybe it's just for the benefit of screenshots, but it looks like
       | I'd have to click or right-click to use the cool functionality -
       | I love the idea, but I don't want to touch the mouse to interact
       | with my browser tabs.
       | 
       | I need keyboard accessibility to be at 100%
        
       | drawfloat wrote:
       | I honestly have to clean up once I hit 5 or 6 tabs, so genuine
       | question to those who keep many open - once you are having to
       | search through a list, what's the advantage over just using
       | history/bookmarks?
        
         | cies wrote:
         | IIRC there's a plugin for Chrome that kills tabs once you open
         | one more than the set limit. This to help rehabilitating tab-
         | hoarders.
        
         | Macha wrote:
         | State: From scrolling through large articles to web app that
         | dump you back at the home screen when re-entering
         | 
         | Finding content: History search just isn't as good as being
         | able to preview a page to see if it's the right one.
         | 
         | To-do list: There's some action remaining until the tab is
         | dismissed, or research items to compare
        
         | jwond wrote:
         | History is a much larger list than open tabs.
         | 
         | For bookmarks, I don't want to have to manage a bunch of
         | temporary bookmarks. With a tab I can just close it and move
         | on, but if I had created a bookmark now I have to both close
         | the tab and delete the bookmark.
        
       | navhc wrote:
       | I guess I'm missing the point because it seems to me like almost
       | all of this can be accomplished in native Firefox. If I want to
       | search my open tabs I just type a % in the address bar with my
       | query and it searches my tabs. If I want to search for a bookmark
       | (which doesn't seem meaningfully different from a star) I use a *
       | instead of %. ^ is for history. For recently visited tabs I can
       | ctrl+tab. Clean is basically close all except pinned but it also
       | includes the tab playing audio.
        
         | dandanua wrote:
         | For the navigation of recent history there is the Tab Session
         | Manager extension.
        
         | madacol wrote:
         | Oh I wished searching tabs (%) weren't broken by Mozilla's
         | extension "Firefox Multi-account Containers"
        
           | kjkjadksj wrote:
           | Too much is broken by that extension, I uninstalled it.
        
             | quesera wrote:
             | I use Multi-Account Containers all the time, in every
             | profile, on every machine.
             | 
             | So I wonder: what features do you use, which are broken by
             | this extension, and which I am therefore missing out on?
             | 
             | (Aside from GP's searching tabs with %, which I didn't know
             | was broken but does have a workaround in Sidebery)
        
       | krono wrote:
       | Neat project, people have wildly differing browser workflows and
       | it's interesting to get a glimpse of how the brain of this
       | extension's author deals with the concept.
       | 
       | This might benefit from using Firefox's Sidebar API:
       | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/Web...
        
         | wintermutestwin wrote:
         | ?? Firefox has an API for a Sidebar and yet they make it such a
         | pain to actually switch to one.
         | 
         | I hear so many complaints about Mozilla for politics, etc, but
         | my real complaint is that they haven't added a Vertical tabs
         | option (which really should be the default on all browsers).
        
       | mdtrooper wrote:
       | I remember a old addon for firefox that did as a "tiling window
       | manager" of opened tabs...it was cool and useful, but now this
       | addon does not run with the new addon api system.
        
       | barbazoo wrote:
       | I've been using "Tree Style Tab" in combination with [1] to hide
       | the old tabs and it's such a joy. I can group tabs by "topic"
       | which is helpful when I'm working on multiple things in parallel
       | which is pretty much always.
       | 
       | [1] https://github.com/piroor/treestyletab/wiki/Code-snippets-
       | fo...
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | Treestyle tab is a must imo. You can even tweak some firefox
         | config files to allow it to minimize to the icon width, then
         | maximize when you mouse over.
        
       | stewbrew wrote:
       | I personally like the onetab extension very much. The best tab is
       | no tab. The very notion of "tab management" is wrong. I just wish
       | there were a way to synchronize the page via Firefox sync.
        
         | jrmann100 wrote:
         | +1 for https://www.one-tab.com/
         | 
         | To provide a bit more context: OneTab closes (all, or specific)
         | tabs and dumps the URLs in a stack, grouped by window or
         | category to be quickly popped open/combed through at your
         | leisure.
         | 
         | It's great for the times I get sidetracked and need to hold
         | onto thirty pages of docs without keeping them open at all
         | times; I use it as a sort of tab purgatory which I will
         | probably not revisit (I have 1025 tabs saved at the moment ).
        
       | shahar2k wrote:
       | I'm actually surprised to have never seen a tab bar that works
       | like the osX dock zoom effect, it seems like it'd be a great way
       | to glance through a large amount of tab windows quickly
        
       | deafpolygon wrote:
       | People with over 100 tabs open.. how? Why?
        
         | jabroni_salad wrote:
         | I'm the RCA guy so I have a lot of research projects in my tabs
         | :)
        
         | dotancohen wrote:
         | Research.
         | 
         | If I'm researching something, I'll open more than 200 tabs.
         | With Tree Style Tabs, each Google or Kagi search is a top-level
         | tab, and each link I open from that gets opened in a sub tab.
         | When I'm done, I'll store the useful tabs organized in an org-
         | mode file - I have an Emacs script which grabs the currently-
         | open tab URL and Title from Mozilla's sqlite database and adds
         | them in org-mode link format to the current document (I can
         | post it if anyone wants it). I can then close all that mess.
        
           | fikama wrote:
           | Sounds incredibly cool, to be honest I am a vim guy, but
           | still is it your own script, is there any repo, can you share
           | it? Also I was't aware that firefox stores open tabs in
           | SQLite, can you point me what to type in Google to read more
           | about it?
        
         | wintermutestwin wrote:
         | How?
         | 
         | Sideberry for vertical tabs - Horizontal tabs make zero sense.
         | 
         | Titler for window titles and then different windows (7-10) for
         | general categories.
         | 
         | The lame issues:
         | 
         | Sidebery doesn't recognize the window titles so moving tabs
         | between windows is a pain.
         | 
         | The fact that vertical tabs are not the firefox default and
         | that FF makes it so difficult to remove the horizontal tabs.
        
         | jedberg wrote:
         | Tabs are my "this is interesting I might read it later"
         | function.
         | 
         | For work, tabs are my way of not losing information someone
         | sent during a meeting or something. I click the link in the
         | meeting chat and then go back later. I use a tab manager to
         | sort them by domain, so all the wiki pages end up together, all
         | the quip docs, etc.
         | 
         | Then every few months I go through all the tabs and either read
         | them, bookmark them, or discard them.
        
       | quanticle wrote:
       | First, thanks for making this and putting it out into the world.
       | As someone who always tends to end up with an unreasonable number
       | of tabs, I'm always interested in more and better tab management
       | options.
       | 
       | That said, I'm wondering how this compares with TreeStyleTabs (1)
       | for tab management.
       | 
       | 1: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-
       | ta...
        
         | cies wrote:
         | I love the TST addon. Sadly it builds on an unstable API and is
         | quite a bit of work to get it installed in FF. Also, it uses
         | some pop-ups that at times make it a bit cumbersome to use
         | (still much better than FF without TST).
         | 
         | Since browsers are a place where we do a lot of work, I think
         | this kind of approach to tabs deserves to land upstream in
         | browsers.
         | 
         | Yet, as many have said before, browsers do not seem to target
         | power users: I cannot even change FF's shortcuts without
         | recompiling the beast!
        
           | quanticle wrote:
           | >Sadly it builds on an unstable API and is quite a bit of
           | work to get it installed in FF.
           | 
           | I didn't seem to have any issues getting the add-on installed
           | in my Firefox. Yes, TST suffered from some instability when
           | Firefox initially deprecated XUL and switched to the
           | WebExtension model exclusively, but it seems to work fine
           | now. It even picked up the theming changes in the latest
           | update to Firefox seamlessly.
           | 
           | >I think this kind of approach to tabs deserves to land
           | upstream in browsers
           | 
           | Edge comes close. It has the option to orient tabs
           | vertically. However, it doesn't organize tabs in a
           | hierarchical outline like TST does.
        
             | cies wrote:
             | > Edge comes close.
             | 
             | Did not know that. Edge is basically MS branded Chrome,
             | right?
        
               | quanticle wrote:
               | At this point, yes. At one point Edge had its own
               | rendering engine, but MS chose to abandon it, and just
               | use Blink instead.
        
             | gnicholas wrote:
             | There's also Orion, at least on Mac. It hasn't replaced my
             | daily driver (Brave), but I've been using it as a
             | 'container' of sorts for LinkedIn and have found it to be
             | pretty good.
             | 
             | Brave currently has vertical tabs as a flag-enable-able
             | option, and if they add tree hierarchy, I probably won't
             | switch. But if not, I'll likely move to Orion, which has
             | been working well for me.
        
           | RunSet wrote:
           | > I love the TST addon. Sadly it builds on an unstable API
           | and is quite a bit of work to get it installed in FF.
           | 
           | The amount of nails FF has scattered in the road of moving
           | the tab bar to the side is atrocious. At one point (in the
           | halcyon days when the Firefox motto was "Your web, the way
           | you like it.") tab placement was a user-configurable option
           | in the preferences.
           | 
           | Then they removed that option, saying "Users can reenable the
           | option with an extension."
           | 
           | Then they broke the extension for no good reason since, as
           | you correctly note, with quite a bit of work is possible to
           | install it.
           | 
           | I wish Firefox would get back to providing a functional
           | browser instead of being a platform to install crap like
           | "Pocket", "Hello", "Colorways", and whatever has flown
           | beneath my radar.
        
             | j33zusjuice wrote:
             | I'm with you on the functional browser. I switched to
             | Chrome for work because of how it does tab groups natively.
             | I manage around 300 on-prem hosts, and I manage K8s and
             | shit in two clouds, all with a fairly low rate of
             | automation.
             | 
             | So I've got tabs open for managing VMWare, Foreman, two
             | monitoring systems, two cloud providers, gsuite, and about
             | eight spreadsheets at all times because that's how we track
             | assets and do IPAM. That's like 20+ tabs that I bounce
             | between all day long. I'm not going to use bookmarks to
             | navigate this, I want a max of two clicks to get to the
             | right tab. And so Chrome's tab groups solve my problem
             | perfectly.
             | 
             | Also, in my defense, since automating things and deploying
             | an ITAM tool is kinda my job, I started here less than a
             | year ago. My predecessors were let go when a new manager
             | came in and found out that the Linux env was ridiculously
             | insecure, and then they refused to make the env comply with
             | some of the most basic security guidelines (like security
             | patching more than twice a year). Then my counterpart left
             | for a better job after three months, so I've been left
             | alone to support an infrastructure that's falling down
             | around itself while also trying to secure and enhance it
             | (i.e. rebuild everything).
        
         | ako wrote:
         | The right solution really depends on your use case. I'm
         | perfectly happy with how tabs work, hardly every have more than
         | 10 open.
         | 
         | Tabs are for pages i'm going to use in the next 30 minutes (or
         | that have state i want to keep), bookmarks for things i need a
         | few times per month, and pocket/readlist for stuff i might want
         | to read in the future.
         | 
         | No need to waste screen real-estate on anything i'm not going
         | to use soon. And there's always history if i need to find
         | something I've closed but didn't save to my bookmarks or
         | pocket.
        
         | sozforex wrote:
         | You might be interested in Sideberry (1) - it has tab groups as
         | an additional instrument of organizing tabs, and automatically
         | creates daily snapshots of hierarchy of tabs.
         | 
         | 1: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/
        
           | quanticle wrote:
           | Thanks for the link. I've installed Sidebery, and it's
           | definitely more customizable and flexible than TreeStyleTabs.
        
           | wussboy wrote:
           | I love Sidebery, but only recently discovered the tab
           | grouping feature, and I love it.
           | 
           | I also us multi-account containers and would love to find a
           | way to make the little ribbon of color on the edge more
           | prominent.
        
             | quesera wrote:
             | > would love to find a way to make the little ribbon of
             | color on the edge more prominent
             | 
             | I use a bit of userChrome.css for this. I think this is the
             | important part:                 .contextual-identity-marker
             | {         width: 40px !important;         left: 0;
             | opacity: 0.6;       }
        
             | wintermutestwin wrote:
             | I pin all of my tabs that use a container and so the color
             | strip goes across almost all of the icon and it is quite
             | visible.
        
           | focusedone wrote:
           | Hadn't heard of that before but it looks amazing. Thanks for
           | posting the link!
        
       | johnchristopher wrote:
       | Looks cool ^^.
       | 
       | But while we are on that subject: I don't want to manage all that
       | mess (my history, my bookmarks, my read-it-later extensions, my
       | stars, etc.).
       | 
       | Plug me an IA, a cortana, a Jarvis or a duck and let me ask it in
       | plain language what I am trying to remember.
       | 
       | After some beeping noises it comes back with some answers, built
       | from the stream of data that passed through my browser. And I
       | mean the whole stream: video, subtitles of those videos, audio
       | track, images in webpages, full text, etc.
       | 
       | Not just a list of URL I visited.
       | 
       | Wait, that's just Google@home, right ? Should I just live in
       | Google search then ?
       | 
       | Ah, I don't know. /rant
        
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       (page generated 2022-11-15 23:02 UTC)