[HN Gopher] A gut-derived hormone suppresses sugar appetite/regu...
___________________________________________________________________
A gut-derived hormone suppresses sugar appetite/regulates food
choice Drosophila
Author : bilsbie
Score : 108 points
Date : 2022-11-13 13:57 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| It seems like there's some interest here in what progress has
| been made in appetite suppressants recently.
|
| The drug mentioned in these links was just FDA approved this year
| and some are calling it a legit breakthrough.
|
| At first it looks like only a diabetes drug, but it's dual use,
| prescribed for weight loss as well. It's expensive, but for those
| with high blood sugar it is sometimes, covered by insurance.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/health/obesity-drugs-insu...
|
| https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
| drowsspa wrote:
| I've been hitting the gym for a few months now, and one thing
| that completely blew my mind was the existence of hypercalorics.
| Imagine that, not being able to eat a lot (specially carbs) and
| having to resort to these solutions.
|
| Point being, people like to spew out CICO as if fat people just
| don't understand thermodynamics. What I've found is that matters
| is appetite: some people just get full way faster than others.
| Beyond metabolism differences, NEAT, emotional responses, etc, I
| think that's actually the major factor. So a hormone like that
| can be game-changing
| huntertwo wrote:
| Hormones, appetite, metabolic diseases are all orthogonal to
| CICO. These can have an effect on how many calories you burn or
| how many calories you crave but at the end of the day, CICO is
| still law.
| klyrs wrote:
| > CICO is still law.
|
| Calories are a measure chemical energy, not mass. Our
| digestive systems don't get anywhere near e=mc^2 in their
| efficiency. The conservation law is MIMO; calories are _way_
| more complicated. For example, people who extol CICO rarely
| take into account the fact that poop has a variable amount of
| chemical energy, which depends on a huge variety of factors
| including gut flora, hydration and fiber intake, or that most
| of our mass output is actually exhaled CO2.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| And yet Mark Haub[0] ate a diet of Twinkies (and other
| convenience store garbage food) to a caloric deficit and
| lost 27lbs in 10 weeks while all of his health metrics
| improved.
|
| Trying to be super precise about calories may be
| complicated, but nobody has to do that to reach a caloric
| deficit anyway so who cares. Eat less than you need by any
| reasonable ball park metric and you will lose weight, it's
| that simple.
|
| The hard part is that for some reason a large percentage of
| the population can't regulate their intake naturally
| because what they require for calories to be a healthy
| weight is misaligned with what they are compelled to
| consume.
|
| [0] http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.profe
| ssor/...
| klyrs wrote:
| Sure, let's agree that CICO is a decent rule of thumb,
| not a law. That's a fun anecdote, though.
| huntertwo wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics
|
| > The laws of thermodynamics define a group of physical
| quantities, such as temperature, energy, and entropy, that
| characterize thermodynamic systems in thermodynamic
| equilibrium.
|
| If you eat 2000 calories of food and burn 2000 calories
| (taking into account inefficiencies in the metabolic
| processes our bodies undertake to convert molecules to
| other molecules), there is no source of energy for you to
| accumulate fat, regardless of anything else.
|
| Your metabolic rate and the chemical energy of your
| excrement and the amount of co2 you exhale can be affected
| by a myriad of factors, hormonal included. But they just
| change the CO part of the equation, not the fact that CICO
| is law.
| maxk42 wrote:
| A calorie measures the heat released by setting the food on
| fire, which is not how your body metabolizes food. It's a
| proxy. You should be measuring the ATP yielded by eating
| food. For example, a molecule of glucose yields 32 ATP when
| metabolized, yet a molecule of DHA yields 136 molecules of
| ATP - nearly twice as many as predicted by the "calories"
| proxy. However, in the absence of oxaloacetic acid (as when
| the liver is using the majority of OAA for gluconeogenesis
| during intense exercise or when limiting carbohydrate
| consumption) your cells have to use a less efficient series
| of metabolic steps to produce energy and only end up yielding
| 22 ATP for DHA metabolism. I eat 3500 calories a day and
| don't exercise yet I'm losing about 2 pounds of fat per week.
|
| CICO was never law.
| djmips wrote:
| What are you eating at 3500 calories a day that allows
| gluconeogenesis without intense exercise. From your comment
| this seems to indicate you are limiting carbohydrates. What
| does your diet consist of?
| huntertwo wrote:
| > You should be measuring the ATP yielded by eating food.
|
| The closest practical approximation of this is the calorie
| measurement we assign to foods. Sure our metabolic
| processes are not equivalent to a calorimeter - but its
| easier to measure calories than to account for the specific
| metabolic process each gram of macronutrient you consume
| goes through.
|
| So for all practical purposes, and in the context of
| hormonal effects, energy in vs energy out ie CICO is still
| law.
| maxk42 wrote:
| You clearly didn't read the rest of my comment.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Uh huh. I've heard all the excuses. I am sure fat people
| understand thermodynamics just fine. What they lack is
| restraint. Never met a fat person with sane eating habits
| vasco wrote:
| There are no fat people during famines or in work camps,
| that's all we need to know to know what is true.
| bogota wrote:
| Lol stop making life complex nothing about your comment says
| CICO is wrong. Self control on the other hand is a problem that
| a lot of people have. But im sure we will find the .1% of
| random issues to talk about instead.
|
| People love to say its easy for you or make up all kinds of
| excuses. A person i dated in the pst liked to complain about
| how she couldn't lose weight because of all these genetic
| issues. Both of her parents were fat and she had recently
| started to get a lot bigger. I said i would diet with her
| eating the same amount of calories even though i work out 5
| times a week and need 2200 calories just to maintain my weight
| normally i am eating 2400 to 2600 since my goal is muscle gain.
| She needed likely about 1800 based on sex, height, and activity
| level. We both targeted 1600 calories a day.
|
| I lost close to ten pounds (this is not at all healthy dont do
| it) she lost 4 pounds. I stopped after a month and she was
| unable to keep doing it alone without me doing all the meal
| planning and just generally because she was lazy.
|
| I never had to hear about how it was because i was lucky again
| which was great. I had serious hunger cravings for the entire
| month but guess what you can decide to not eat.
|
| Prepared for my downvotes from all the people "stuck" at
| unhealthy weight.
| xctr94 wrote:
| You're being downvoted for having a bad attitude, victim-
| blaming in a system not designed for healthy weight, and for
| generally not understanding this is a nice forum. This isn't
| Reddit.
| drowsspa wrote:
| "It's a self-control issue" well, obviously? It's also a
| completely useless and un-actionable observation, unless your
| goal is to feel better by pointing fingers, in which case,
| suit yourself.
| 0x737368 wrote:
| Has nothing to do with fat people not understanding
| thermodynamics and has everything to do with not being able to
| follow the simple principle and looking for shortcuts instead.
| drowsspa wrote:
| A diet that doesn't take into account the factors that lead
| someone to overeat is useless by definition. If "most people
| can't follow this simple principle" then evidently it's a
| useless principle. Unless the goal is to point fingers to
| feel better about yourself, in which case it's pretty useful.
| 0x737368 wrote:
| What are you talking about? If you eat a diet that has the
| required number of calories and nutrients designed for a
| healthy-weight person, your body weight will drop
| accordingly.
|
| The factors that lead someone to overeat is a totally
| different question the answer to which should be figured
| out by themselves or maybe their psychologist. In most
| cases it's not that dire though, once their initial
| withdrawal from fast food stops people stop having these
| impulses to reach for a doughnut each time they're
| inconvenienced. In any case, your problems in life should
| be treated by dealing with the problems directly and not
| making themselves feel better by stuffing their face.
| drowsspa wrote:
| > If you eat a diet that has the required number of
| calories and nutrients designed for a healthy-weight
| person, your body weight will drop accordingly.
|
| Thanks for explaining thermodynamics to me, I guess?
|
| > once their initial withdrawal from fast food stops
| people stop having these impulses to reach for a doughnut
| each time they're inconvenienced
|
| Statistically, most people who try to eat less fail to do
| it. Why do you think you don't you have the impulse to
| reach for a donut each time you're inconvenienced?
|
| I guess it's more comfortable to just call them lazy, but
| it's utterly useless and un-actionable at a societal and
| personal level. Diets have to be all about managing the
| sensation of hunger while maintaining such a caloric
| deficit. CICO amounts to "Just eat less lol"
| 0x737368 wrote:
| > Statistically, most people who try to eat less fail to
| do it.
|
| Yep, because the secret is simple, not easy. Whereas
| people want to find some high-tech wunderwaffen arcane
| diet that will be hyper complex but easy to follow and
| will lead to effortless results.
|
| There was this documentary on yt[0] where a fitness model
| gained lots of weight on purpose to lose it, and even he
| had mood swings and initially had problems with following
| his diet regimen when it was time to lose the weight. But
| point still stands, if you stick with the diet your
| weight will drop.
|
| [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew7g7AqGqzo
| drowsspa wrote:
| I'm gonna ignore this whole "fitness model gaining weight
| on purpose" because I don't even know how to respond to
| you thinking this is somehow relevant. What it does show
| me is that you're quite unwilling to imagine yourself in
| others' shoes.
|
| I'm not continuing this conversation, but let me just
| tell you: if you don't feel a strong impulse, you don't
| need that much self-control to not act upon it. So you
| should think about what's actually so different about you
| compared to all those fat people.
| 0x737368 wrote:
| Ok, best of luck to you on your journey
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| It seems surprising that almost no progress has been made in
| appetite suppression since they used to prescribe amphetamines
| as "diet pills" in the 1950s.
|
| I found just a few spoons of stodgy porridge can keep hunger
| away for 6 - 8 hours.
| ChadNauseam wrote:
| Tons of progress has been made actually. Semaglutide works
| amazingly well at appetite suppression, and there are human
| trials going on now for drugs that seem to be even better. I
| wrote about it here [0].
|
| [0]: https://chadnauseam.com/random/semaglutide-has-changed-
| the-w...
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| That's very interesting thanks for sharing.
|
| BTW I used to be exactly like you and could eat enough to
| feed a regiment without gaining an ounce. My eating for
| Britain stopped suddenly when I hit 40 and metabolism
| changed. Hope you are blessed with lifelong good apetite
| management, but for me I had to start working on it and
| changing my lifestyle/willpower.
|
| It's good to know that advances are happening for those who
| truly need a helping hand though.
| sigg3 wrote:
| > What I've found is that matters is appetite: some people just
| get full way faster than others.
|
| This is a half truth. If you cut down portion size your stomach
| will shrink over time. I eat a lot less before feeling full
| now, and I only changed my life a year ago.
|
| It's also important that you eat stuff that makes you feel
| full, fibers and greens. Changing diet also changed my taste,
| so I crave more healthy things now, while the food I used to
| eat honestly don't appeal to me any longer or tastes empty.
|
| OTOH if you push yourself to eat a little more every meal, your
| stomach will grown, accommodating room for more before you feel
| full.
| adrian_b wrote:
| For increased satiety, even when eating little, an additional
| factor is that the food should not be too soft, like most of
| the industrially made food is, but it should need some time
| of vigorous chewing.
|
| There are many vegetables, fruits and nuts that require a
| decent amount of chewing. There are also some kinds of home-
| made bread that require much more chewing than the industrial
| soft bread, while also being much tastier than the commercial
| bread (when eaten immediately after baking; the commercial
| bread is optimized for long shelf life).
| bin_bash wrote:
| "Nature will castigate those who don't masticate." -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Fletcher
| bollu wrote:
| Got any chewey bread recipes?
| adrian_b wrote:
| Another poster has already given a good recipe.
|
| Besides such more elaborate recipes, after a little
| experimentation it is also possible to make bread with
| simplified recipes and preparation.
|
| For example, in most days I make a bread to be eaten at
| breakfast, which needs less than 20 minutes for making,
| distributed over a duration of less than an hour.
|
| It is baked in a microwave oven, which takes much less
| time than in a conventional oven and which is perfectly
| reproducible (the time depends on the microwave oven and
| on the amount of dough, so it must be found by
| experiments; in my oven @ 1000 W I use 13 minutes for
| dough made of 500 g of wheat flour, in a glass vessel
| covered by a lid).
|
| Sometimes I add various spices, but even pure bread made
| only of wheat flour and water can be very good. I make
| the dough from wheat floor (with 12% proteins) + water
| having 75% of the mass of the floor. The dough is kneaded
| for a few minutes in a glass bowl, until becoming
| homogeneous and elastic. Then it is left 30 minutes, to
| become cohesive.
|
| Then I wash for a few minutes the dough while kneading
| it, to remove a part of the starch, because I want to
| obtain a bread with high protein content, which causes
| more satiety than conventional bread, both due to the
| high protein content and by being more chewy. Then I bake
| it and I eat it after it cools enough. Of course, washing
| the dough is optional.
|
| For softer bread, a leavening agent can be used.
| Nevertheless, when the dough is baked in a microwave
| oven, due to the internal heating, even the unleavened
| dough grows about 30% to 40% of what it would grow when
| leavened, due to the expansion of the incorporated air
| and water.
| ljf wrote:
| My homemade sour dough is always chewy and tough, but I
| love it!
|
| [ ] Thursday
|
| [ ] 8am - if starter hasn't been used for 4 weeks or
| more; feed starter 30g flour and 30g of water
|
| [ ] Thursday evening weigh out flour and salt as below
| into two bowls, and cover. Get water jug, yeast and
| teaspoon ready. Keep starter in the fridge until needed
|
| [ ] Friday:
|
| [ ] 1. (8am) Mix 100g of Starter, 200g white flour, 50g
| wholemeal flour, 200g warm water. Mix and cover. This is
| the Levain, set aside somewhere room temperature - if you
| house is very cold you can use extra starter.
|
| [ ] 2. (1pm) Five hours later, in a big bowl mix 100 of
| white flour, 300g of wholemeal flour, 10g of salt and
| 330g warm water. Stand for 20 minutes, uncovered.
|
| [ ] 3. (1.20pm) Add a quarter tea spoon of instant yeast
| and 300g of the levain made this morning to the big bowl,
| mix all together (leftover levain add to starter you have
| in the fridge - save for next time or mix and give half
| to someone else).
|
| [ ] 4.1 (2.30pm) 1st fold. Over the next 2 hours, fold
| the dough 3 times with wet hands. Roughly mix and blend
| the dough, no need to kneed.
|
| [ ] 4.2 (3.30pm) 2nd fold
|
| [ ] 4.3 (4.30pm) 3rd fold
|
| [ ] 5. (6pm, approx 5 hours after step 2.) Shape into a
| ball and place on greaseproof paper in a large bowl. Put
| in fridge till tomorrow morning.
|
| [ ] Saturday:
|
| [ ] 6. (8am) Remove from fridge. Preheat oven and a cast-
| iron pot to 245 deg C
|
| [ ] 7. Score top of loaf and place with greaseproof paper
| in the heated pot and bake for 20 minutes. Remove lid and
| cook for 25 mins more. Will sound hollow(ish) when tapped
| once baked. Crust should be a dark brown.
|
| [ ] 8. Remove from pot, take off greaseproof paper and
| place on a rack. Cool for 20 minutes.
| guerrilla wrote:
| That's only half the adaptation though. You can decrease the
| volume, but also decrease the frequency by sticking to a
| strict schedule. Don't _ever_ eat outside of the normal times
| that you should eat and your appetite at all other times will
| decrease. Your body learns.
|
| The next part is just my own made-up opinion but: I think
| this is also why you shouldn't under-eat because then maybe
| your body _won 't_ learn because it actually thinks its
| starving and so it _won 't_ adapt to the smaller volume and
| lower frequency.
| [deleted]
| thelittleone wrote:
| I believe it goes beyond merely stomach size. How much
| someone eats is also influenced by their threshold of
| appetite / hunger before triggering the response to eat. I go
| through phases where I make a decision to eat less (and feel
| a bit hungry) and after some days it becomes normal to the
| point it no longer triggers me to eat. My appetite is
| recalibrated and I doubt my stomach has shrunk that fast. So
| I feel there is a substantial mental aspect to it beyond the
| shrinking and enlarging of the gut.
|
| And or course then there's the cultural habit / ritual of
| eating 3 times a day.
| kif wrote:
| AFAIK the stomach remains the same size, but what changes is
| how your body processes hunger. I've noticed while fasting
| that after a while, my body gets used to reduced food intake.
| Then I can get full by eating considerably less than what I'd
| call a normal sized meal.
| kaibee wrote:
| > It's also important that you eat stuff that makes you feel
| full, fibers and greens. Changing diet also changed my taste,
| so I crave more healthy things now, while the food I used to
| eat honestly don't appeal to me any longer or tastes empty.
|
| Having tried this, by basically eating a lot of carrots, its
| uh, not the same as being full/satiated. Feeling like your
| stomach is full is just a completely different feeling from
| feeling like you ate a satiating meal.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| I wonder if the satiated feeling isn't from volume but from
| some nutrient showing up in blood or in intestinal
| detectors for something signaled as in short supply.
| newsclues wrote:
| I think the satiated feeling is from your body having
| enough fat. Rich, heavy meals will trigger it.
|
| Carbs cause the opposite, they trigger the need to eat
| more (carbs).
| rojobuffalo wrote:
| not to get down in the weeds but carrots aren't that
| fibrous, but their *available fiber content goes up 2.5x
| when you cook them, from about 2g per stick to 5g. leafy
| greens, especially kale, are better for filling up. and you
| still need protein and fat on top of that.
| Tagbert wrote:
| How does boiling increase the fiber content of carrots?
| Where does the extra fiber come from?
| rojobuffalo wrote:
| boiling breaks down cell walls which makes nutrients more
| available. i'm not an expert but i read about it
| somewhere.
| kaibee wrote:
| I will try this.
| lob_it wrote:
| Being on prescription meds is almost like the junkie
| paraphernalia with shooting up insulin and popping high
| bloodpressure meds.
|
| Doesn't is sound like a biological crutch for low-quality
| habits (fake food, cascading health issues, unhealthy
| environments,etc)?
|
| Hormone treatments appear to be guinea pig experiments with
| lifelong consequences.
| xctr94 wrote:
| Sadly, it's quite hard to fix the environment, since we're
| communally invested into the current system.
| lob_it wrote:
| Happily, individuals always have a choice :)
|
| I've laughed several times already at "culture clumping"
| and "lifestyle clumping".
|
| Being a technology native, I had good timing and got to
| grow up with the "golden library" that was the information
| superhighway.
|
| The kids nowadays have to filter more tabloid
| info/illiteracy in a day than I had to in the course of
| years. I got to skip late-stage television too :p
|
| Innovation in the 21st century is soooooooo much better
| than anything fiction has to offer.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| NEAT?
| drowsspa wrote:
| Non-exercise activity thermogenesis:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12468415/
| spacemannoslen wrote:
| Over experimenting with my own body with diet through about 20
| years I'm always amazed at how big a role habit plays in
| appetite.
|
| When I did intermittent fasting I got into the habit of never
| needing food until around 4pm.
|
| The body adapts fairly quickly to whatever inputs you feed it,
| and it's amazing how little of diet advice focuses on that, to
| me
| User23 wrote:
| Gym bro science gets a bad rap here for whatever reason, but
| I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're better off following a
| 1970s bodybuilder diet (scaled appropriately) than whatever the
| latest garbage the FDA and USDA are pushing. Sure plenty of it
| is nonsense, like eating 6 meals a day, but it's mostly
| harmless nonsense. That's in stark contrast to the food pyramid
| recommendation to eat a couple loafs of bread each day which is
| harmful nonsense that has probably played a role in the type 2
| diabetes epidemic.
|
| Also it's entirely plausible that various small molecules like
| artificial sweeteners, preservatives, solvents, and whatever
| else goes in the process chemistry products called processed
| food is in some way or another bioactive and alters
| homeostasis, perhaps by disrupting the endocrine system or
| perhaps through other pathways.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| People hate on the dietary guidelines a lot but adherence is
| only 50-60% in the US.
|
| A slight overconsumption of grains, large overconsumption of
| meat, and massive _under_ consumption of vegetables and
| fruits and dairy.
|
| I looked this up recently. On my phone but googling
| "adherence of us population to dietary guidelines" may help.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I agree that appetite is the most important factor.
|
| But I think CICO is still helpful. It's not a panacea, lots of
| people struggle to just eat the right amount (see appetite).
|
| But you can use CICO as a check to make sure you aren't
| bullshitting yourself. If you try a diet (eg. cut sugar,
| intermittent fasting, low carbs, etc), you will only lose
| weight if you have a caloric deficit. Eg. if you cut sugar from
| your diet but eat huge portions of whole grain pasta instead
| you aren't going to lose any weight.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| Other measures are also helpful but we don't generally think
| about them. For example, carefully counting "water-in, water-
| out" (WIWO) seems like it'd be necessary to avoid
| dehydration. However in normal circumstances (i.e., when
| you're not running marathons or exerting yourself in the
| desert) we don't need to think about this very much. Your
| body will manage its own hydration levels by making you
| thirsty only at the appropriate times. WIWO is still a thing
| but we don't obsess about it.
|
| Now imagine your body _couldn 't_ manage its own hydration
| properly, perhaps because we contaminated our water supplies
| with something that disregulates the thirst response. Then
| you'd have a society that spends a lot of time talking about
| WIWO and it'd be a pretty sick place to live. It's much
| healthier to treat the underlying disregulation than to force
| people to constantly be thirsty.
| dwaite wrote:
| counting calories gives you knowledge of what you are putting
| in.
|
| The problem with people who pitch it as the answer (rather
| than one line on four full whiteboards) is that calories out
| is very difficult to control or measure, and will tend to
| reduce in proportion to calories in.
|
| On the flip side, many people find that their base metabolic
| rate increases when they switch to a very low carb diet -
| this is both because using the nutrients in their food takes
| more energy, and because they are no longer suppressing their
| body's use of energy with overabundant insulin.
|
| Low carb aka Atkins are typically hormonally-focused diets,
| not a caloric deficit diets.
|
| Paleo is an autoimmune-friendly diet, not a caloric deficit
| diet.
| AnonCoward42 wrote:
| CICO as an assumption is important. It certainly doesn't solve
| obesity, but it makes the problem measurable.
|
| For me it is mostly about the amount of sweet stuff, however in
| general it is about the appetite/calorie ratio. You can eat
| "unhealthy" food and still lose weight. My body wants sugar
| once a week or so, however that's still fine.
|
| It's probably obvious, but avoid eating food you don't like,
| just because it is less calorie/supposedly healthy. This leads
| to enormous frustration. Experimenting however is a good idea,
| the more alternatives one has the better.
| dabbledash wrote:
| Appetite differences are almost certainly the primary factor in
| why some people get heavy and others don't, but that isn't
| inconsistent with CICO at all.
| adrian_b wrote:
| In my opinion, the differences in appetite are caused mostly
| by the differences in the type of food eaten, and not by the
| differences between humans.
|
| In my search for a diet that would allow me to avoid gaining
| weight, the main successes were achieved by replacing various
| kinds of food that were tasty, but which did not satiate me
| before eating huge amounts of them, with other kinds of food
| that are also tasty, but which satiate me after eating a
| moderate amount of them.
| drowsspa wrote:
| But that right there is a difference between you and other
| humans. The idea of "searching for a diet that allows you
| to gain weight" is absolutely alien to me. I can easily get
| to 5000 calories a day without even thinking about it,
| while you have to make a conscious effort to reach (I
| assume) much less than that.
|
| My sister and I grew up with the same diet. We didn't
| starve, but neither of us had lots of access to junk food.
| Yet she could be hungry once she got home and after half a
| plate to be already satiated.
|
| Today she has tons of junk food in her house yet she
| doesn't feel the compulsion to eat more than a few bytes.
| I'm down to 71 kg from 83 kg back in June, but I still
| can't have a single cookie package in my house.
| adrian_b wrote:
| I think that you have misread my comment.
|
| I have said "a diet to avoid gaining weight", not "a diet
| that allows gaining weight".
|
| If I eat more than 1900 ... 2000 kcal per day, I gain
| weight rapidly, so the problem was reducing the amount of
| energy intake so much, while ensuring an adequate daily
| intake of proteins and of any other essential nutrients,
| and without feeling that I am starving.
|
| I agree that there are differences between people and
| there are also differences for a single human depending
| on circumstances, e.g. in many cases when you are ill you
| lose your appetite.
|
| Nevertheless, for the same human, different foods
| containing the same amount of energy can behave extremely
| differently from the point of view of causing satiety,
| both immediately after the meal and some hours later.
|
| For remaining satiated many hours after the meal, at
| equal energy content food with higher content of proteins
| and/or fat and/or fiber is more effective.
|
| For being satiated immediately after the meal, at equal
| nutrient composition food that is more consistent and
| requires prolonged chewing causes satiety much faster
| than soft food such as creams, mashed potatoes, ground
| meat and the like.
| drowsspa wrote:
| Yeah, sorry, I misread that. I guess the gist of what I
| mean is that it's a much easier choice for some than it
| is for others.
| antiterra wrote:
| I have known plenty of people who ate very small amounts of
| garbage food (eg only candy & hot pockets) and didn't gain
| weight.
|
| Some instances this seemed due to an incredibly fast
| metabolism, others were due to GERD/IBS or some other
| factor that limits the craving.
|
| The differences are real, even if it's just something like
| gut biome.
| ethanbond wrote:
| It's not inconsistent (obviously, because thermodynamics),
| but it does make CICO a pretty useless contribution to the
| conversation. Not the silver bullet that proponents position
| it as.
|
| Successful dieting is about managing the _sensation_ of
| hunger. That's it.
| garbanz0 wrote:
| I've noticed a lot of overweight people using food as a
| crutch to manage emotional discomfort or distress, even
| when they might not be all that hungry. So there is
| something else going on.
| drowsspa wrote:
| I'm down to 71 kg from 83 kg in June, and yeah, that was
| a major factor to my overeating.
|
| Yet, some people have a different appetite, or a
| different reward system wiring for food, and they just
| don't feel the same impulse to do it even when they're
| stressed out.
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| I have a theory but I'm not entirely sure that food to
| manage emotional distress goes through a different
| pathway or structure than other kinds of distress
| management. Like, exercise, meditation, etc. we know tend
| to be healthier, longer-term alternatives. However
| there's something breaking in the brain reward system
| where food is actually working as a reward in a way
| exercise and meditation are not.
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| We have an old, safe, cheap drug for humans already: Metformin.
|
| Most people can get an off-label metformin prescription for
| anti-aging or appetite suppression.
|
| Your interest in food will be reduced to the point you have
| trouble keeping weight on.
|
| Sugar will be repulsive to you. Sweet food tastes "sickly
| sweet", nauseating.
|
| Metformin also interferes with the absorption of carbohydrates
| in your gut.
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Most people can get an off-label metformin prescription
| for anti-aging._
|
| Dumb question: How? I'm reasonably certain my GP would not be
| amenable to being asked to prescribe drugs for off-label use.
| gruez wrote:
| Off label use is fine. I'd be more worried about the fact
| that a patient is bring it up out of the blue (ie. "give me
| drugs plz"), and the evidence for life extension is shaky
|
| >There is some evidence metformin may be helpful in
| extending lifespan, even in otherwise healthy people. It
| has received substantial interest as an agent that delays
| aging, possibly through similar mechanisms as its treatment
| of diabetes (insulin and carbohydrate regulation). This is
| controversial, and an area of active research.[61][62]
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| Just ask your doctor for it. Say: "Please prescribe me
| Metformin, 2 grams daily."
|
| If you're overweight, tell your doctor you want help with
| your appetite. Otherwise, say you want metformin for its
| cancer prevention and anti-aging effects.
|
| Metformin is safe and it almost universally improves health
| and well-being.
|
| Your doctor knows this, and she'll gladly prescribe it.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > Your doctor knows this, and she'll gladly prescribe it.
|
| If your doctor gladly prescribes anything you just walk
| in and ask for by name and dosage and doesn't have a
| green cross symbol outside their office, then I'd highly
| suggest seeking out a new doctor.
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| We're talking about a particular drug here (metformin)
| not just "anything".
|
| I'm saying it's likely your doctor will be willing to
| prescribe METFORMIN (that drug, in particular) for off-
| label use if you ask.
| drowsspa wrote:
| I once heard about one drug that basically works by making
| you nauseous to food. Is it the one?
|
| > Metformin is generally safe, but common side effects do
| include vomiting, nausea, and diarrhea. Those experiencing
| these unpleasant side effects might consume less food,
| resulting in modest weight reductions.
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| Many foods you used to like (e.g., sweets) will be
| nauseating.
|
| Other foods remain delicious. For example, eggs and cheese
| and meat.
|
| But basically, your interest in food will be drastically
| reduced, and you will eat just enough.
|
| This is an important part of metformin's beneficial effect
| on lifespan and health.
| TylerE wrote:
| Admittedly, I'm on a fairly low dose (500mg x 2), but I
| can still kill a bag of Haribo when the mood hits. It
| doesn't , quite as often, but I've noticed no changes in
| flavor.
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| Thanks for the anecdote. Biological variation, we're all
| different!
| dwaite wrote:
| Can you point to any studies around this?
|
| I've never heard of this effect (let alone experienced
| it).
|
| I do know that Diabetes itself can reduce the efficiency
| of taste receptors, and metformin will sometimes cause
| people to have a metallic taste in their mouth (due to
| metformin in produced saliva)
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| It's easy to find studies connecting metformin to weight
| loss and loss of appetite. I'll leave that to you, just
| use Google and you'll be swamped with evidence.
|
| You say you've never heard of metformin affecting food
| palatability and taste? Did you search the web at all?
| Just use Google if you want anecdotal examples. For
| example:
|
| https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/loss-of-
| appetit...
|
| _I joined as after 18 months on metformin, my appetite
| and enjoyment of food is constantly declining. I've lost
| about 10 kg over that time, which is not a problem. But
| I've lost my appetite and, as a keen cook and someone who
| has always enjoyed good food, I no longer look forward to
| meals and get little pleasure from food._
|
| or
|
| https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/anyone-
| experience-l...
|
| _Metformin changed the taste of food slowly during the
| time I took it. It finally got to the point where all
| vegetables tasted like burnt plastic. This meant that I
| didn 't want to eat them._
|
| And so on. Now you've heard of it! All it took was a web
| search.
| empiricus wrote:
| You should not feel anything when you take Metformin. Its
| effects are subtle and very long term.
| anaisbetts wrote:
| A more appropriate drug for this is probably Ozempic/Wegovy
| (Semaglutide), or an even more effective version available in
| the US, Tirzepatide. I've personally been on the former and
| after 4.5 months, I've lost ~20% of my body weight
| bilsbie wrote:
| Aren't those hard to get and then super expensive if you do
| quality?
| anaisbetts wrote:
| No idea, in the EU I pay ~85 EUR/mo
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| Metformin is well-understood, old, safe, and has various
| health benefits.
|
| Surprisingly, metformin seems to be almost a pure win, even
| for healthy people: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-
| metformin-a-wonder-dr...
|
| In contrast, GIP analogues like semaglutaide present real
| risks and are less well understood. For some people, with
| serious health problems, GIP analogues make sense. But
| generally you don't want to be taking them if you're
| healthy.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| Yeah tell that to my stress eating family members who all
| have metformin prescriptions.
|
| This may be true for some people but definitely not a
| universal
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| Here's a question to consider: How much worse would the
| situation be if they weren't on metformin?
| tacitusarc wrote:
| > Because the vast majority of research regarding metformin
| included only people with diabetes or prediabetes, it's
| unclear whether these potential benefits are limited to
| people with those conditions, or whether people without
| diabetes may derive benefit as well.
|
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-metformin-a-wonder-
| dr...
| smhoff256 wrote:
| I think those kinds of blanket statements about metformin are
| a little misleading and a bit dangerous. For instance I
| myself have been on metformin now for almost 2 years and I
| can assure you I have no repulsion to sugar.
| bugfix-66 wrote:
| Yes, I see three responses along these lines, already. Some
| people don't lose weight. Some people's appetite isn't
| affected. Some people retain their taste for sweets. And so
| on.
|
| But "misleading and a bit dangerous"? Really?
|
| Readers can find a summary of metformin's typical effects
| on Wikipedia, here:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin
|
| YMMV: "your mileage may vary"
| flamebreath447 wrote:
| What doesn't make sense about your statement is that CICO
| evangelists don't claim that appetite or that satiation isn't a
| problem.
|
| One of the best examples I know of is Greg Doucette. He
| specifically preaches CICO because for 95-99% of people it is
| about putting the fork down. It's a generalization because,
| more often than not you aren't controlling your intake if you
| are overweight. There will always be the minority that truly
| have hormonal imbalances and need assistance losing weight.
|
| If you have a higher appetite you should have learned about low
| calorie dense foods, and if you're serious about losing or
| maintaining a healthy weight you have to find sustainable foods
| you like that fill you but are lower in calories.
|
| There's a heirarchy in terms of trouble shooting your weight
| problems and proper jumping to NEAT and hormonal imbalances is
| really just trying to take a shortcut for instant
| gratification.
|
| Long term you can lose 1 pound a month, slowly, and keep it off
| the rest of your life via CICO.
|
| Sorry for the rant but I can't stand people who skip CICO cause
| they don't like to hear it and haven't done research on how to
| keep themselves full.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > It's a generalization because, more often than not you
| aren't controlling your intake if you are overweight. There
| will always be the minority that truly have hormonal
| imbalances and need assistance losing weight.
|
| But we know it's _not_ a minority. _Most_ people who try to
| eat less fail, repeatedly, for all of their lives.
| flamebreath447 wrote:
| But it is.
|
| It's because people who 'try' their whole lives yo-yo diet
| or crash diet and that's
|
| 1) unsustainable 2) extremely likely to result in more long
| term weight gain 3) very unhealthy for your body to
| constantly be fluctuating in weight so rapidly
|
| If you are eating right (let me be very clear here, right
| doesn't mean whole 30 or some vegan diet: it means calories
| within the means to not add or lose weight which is called
| maintenance) you are not going to fluctuate in weight very
| much.
|
| The majority of people in America are overweight because
| they lack basic understanding of nutrition, don't exercise
| enough (still you cannot outwork a bad diet), self-control
| thus overeat or some permutation of all three.
|
| It's straight up a bold face lie to say that the majority
| of people have hormonal problems otherwise we would have a
| national crisis on our hands with something that we should
| drop our jobs for right now and study because our water or
| air or food is heavily impacting our hormones to cause
| every single person on earth to gain weight.
|
| If losing and maintaining a healthy weight was easy, we
| would have put it into a pill already.
|
| Not to mention you don't need to be in a caloric deficit
| your whole life. Hell you could even be 15% BF and maintain
| that for 40+ years.
|
| Most people adopt those fad diets and realize how much they
| hate it because it's so restrictive.
|
| The main goal of a good and healthy caloric intake is to
| basically eat the right foods you want to eat within the
| portion that allows you to maintain.
|
| It's pretty simple if you look at all the diets today -
| keto - intermittent fasting - vegan/ vegetarian - whole 30
| - carnivore
|
| It's all an aim to put guard rails on your diet by making
| some foods 'off limits'. CICO literally calorie restriction
| by cutting out entire groups of food.
|
| It's not sustainable because everyone eventually runs out
| of will power and wants a donut.
|
| The key is, track your caloric intake. Micro-adjust to get
| to a healthy weight. Maintain.
|
| You should be able to eat the foods you wanna eat the rest
| of your life on a good diet, just less of them and you need
| to find foods that satiate you personally well to
| counteract overeating.
| BeetleB wrote:
| About a decade ago I read an interview with an applied
| mathematician about how he applied his knowledge of math to
| practical applications. I don't recall if he was working
| for the NSF or the NIH at the time, but his work for the
| past few years had to do with this.
|
| He said that of all the contributing factors to being
| overweight, the factor that was clearly the most
| significant by a margin was food production per capita. If
| you produce a lot more food, people will consume a lot more
| as well.
|
| Putting down the fork may not be an effective solution, but
| the problem _definitely_ is eating too much. Other factors
| like how our bodies absorb more from the same food than
| they did 40 years ago pale in comparison.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > but the problem definitely is eating too much
|
| Not necessarily. Eating too much may be the _result_ of
| whatever the actual problem may be. People know they 're
| eating too much already. They still, very reliably, can't
| do anything about it.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > People know they're eating too much already. They
| still, very reliably, can't do anything about it.
|
| Consistent with my comment. That they can't cut down
| eating doesn't mean the problem isn't overproduction.
| brongondwana wrote:
| The thing that worked for me was time restriction. I can't
| reliably count calories but I can quite easily look at the
| clock and decide whether it's feeding hours or fasting
| hours. Doesn't make it easy, but made it possible.
|
| (lost 20ish kg first time with fitness and diet change, put
| most of it back on over many years due largely to buffet
| lunch in the office followed by bad habits, lost it again
| by using time restriction and that seems to have stuck so
| far)
| badrabbit wrote:
| I have gained and lost a ton of weight several times in my life.
| While I did also notice and make use of the hormone imbalances
| that affect me (depending on where your fat is you can estimate
| what hormone is acting up), in my experience it has been that
| food appetite or enjoyment is maybe 10% of the struggle with
| another 10% being environmental factors but 80% comes down to the
| answer to a simple question: Is the advantage or profit of weight
| loss worth the discomfort and hard work? We all know objectively
| speaking it is, but as an individual, do I care enough? What do I
| get out if it in the end that is worth it, _for me_?
| Beaver117 wrote:
| People weren't fat 100 years ago so what happened? We didn't just
| evolve to have lower self control. Something was introduced in
| the food/water supply that causes obesity, particularly high
| appetite. What can it be? HFCS? Antibiotics? PFAS? Canola oil?
| Some mystery chemical?
|
| The CICO cult are a hindrance to society, obviously everyone
| would count calories if it didn't make them feel like they're
| dying. The fact is we don't know CO. And we don't know each how
| each persons appetite is influenced. So talking about CICO is
| meaningless.
| oblak wrote:
| You haven't heard of fat Romans?
|
| The environment, pesticides, plastics, skinny robot aliens from
| the future. We just don't know!
|
| Anything but indulgence.
| sedeki wrote:
| I read a lot of good things about intermittent fasting. Is there
| a good canonical resource if I want to try it?
|
| Note that I am lifting weighs 3 times per week. Is IF still a
| good idea...?
|
| I don't feel confident that this is something that I can lift
| with my GP, as it is not part of their standard set of guidelines
| (?)
| polishdude20 wrote:
| IF seems to be one of many techniques to restrict your overall
| calorie consumption. Each technique is suited to a different
| person's schedule, personality, vices etc. It's less about the
| chemistry happening in the body and more about the matching of
| diet to personality choices.
|
| As for IF while lifting? Depends on your goals.
| sedeki wrote:
| OK! I was under the impression that it had tangible health
| benefits like better cardio-vascular health regardless of
| diet, better well-being/mood.
|
| In other words, I assumed that IF is not just good for
| weight-loss or weight maintenance.
| xctr94 wrote:
| The evangelists will sell IF/TRE has having every benefit
| under the sun. I do 16:8 for weight maintenance, but I also
| appreciate the morning work that I do on ketones. It's a
| simple regiment that has made me more aware of what I eat;
| but I don't think it's a panacea.
|
| When you look at sources of compiled research such as
| Examine [1] or meta-analysis [2], the science on IF/TRE
| isn't yet solid enough to back more than the weight-loss
| aspect.
|
| [1]: https://examine.com/diets/16-8-intermittent-fasting/
|
| [2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/
| [deleted]
| socialismisok wrote:
| I'd love to have some help with this. I was able to drop meat,
| most dairy, and salty junk food without problem. I eat plenty of
| green leafy vegetables.
|
| But sugar. Fuuuck I cannot walk past sweets. Sugar has claws in
| me I cannot shake. I hope we someday understand that mechanism
| better, maybe enough to give me a little help.
| huntertwo wrote:
| Maybe eat dairy and meat instead? These foods are less harmful
| to you and less likely to leave you hungry than sugar and
| processed foods.
| socialismisok wrote:
| Meat is tricky. I won't support industrial meat production,
| that's a hard line for me. Finding local farmers to supply
| meat takes time. But yes, that's an approach I could take.
| ddorian43 wrote:
| > I was able to drop meat, most dairy, and salty junk food
| without problem.
|
| You are doing this completely in reverse. You need to drop
| sugar & carbs. And eat fatty-meat/low-carb.
| socialismisok wrote:
| No. I will not eat industrially produced meat. I dropped that
| a long time ago. Meat from local farmers with ethical
| practices is a sometimes food.
|
| Dairy is sugar... I'll have some cottage cheese or other
| cheeses. And salty junk food (chips, cheese crackers, etc) is
| almost always high carb.
| ddorian43 wrote:
| Like Eminem said: Be smart, don't be a retard.
|
| See keto diet. (I do it and carnivore).
| csours wrote:
| I hear you. Controlling your food environment is so important.
| It's candy on desks season again. I can usually walk past the
| candy, but not always.
| drowsspa wrote:
| Willpower is a finite resource indeed, you can't rely on
| that.
| pstuart wrote:
| True, but it can be trained to a degree.
|
| If one can make it through the sugar detox phase then it's
| pretty easy because the cravings do go away.
|
| The other part is stress management; when something bad
| happens it's so tempting to say "fuck it, I deserve this
| <insert bad thing>". That's the harder part.
| freddie_mercury wrote:
| Current research suggests that willpower is not a finite
| research and "ego depletion" was a spurious finding.
|
| https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-do-you-
| know/2020...
| drowsspa wrote:
| Psychology research is all over the place. If they mean
| willpower as this general concept, then probably it's not
| a thing.
|
| But if you have junk food in your home some people (like
| myself) will eat it compulsively at some point.
| csours wrote:
| I think willpower is a description of the human
| experience. I don't know if it's a good mechanistic
| description or not. It does not seem to be taken
| seriously as a cause by many psychologists.
|
| Whatever you think of willpower, I think controlling the
| food environment (don't bring it home from the store,
| don't eat at restaurants with mainly junk food, etc) is
| the most effective intervention. After that, things like
| substitution, delay, smallest possible portion, and
| putting the tempting food in an inconvenient location may
| help.
| asciimov wrote:
| Advice from a T2 Diabetic and regular Keto dieter.
|
| If you have never given up sugar before, it will take at least
| 6-8 weeks of non-use before the cravings go away. These will be
| some of the hardest weeks too.
|
| 1) everything has sugar in it, and you have to absolutely avoid
| it, not just sweets, fruits, juices, I'd even tell you diet
| drinks and artificial sweeteners too. That means no ketchup,
| sauces, breads, and most processed and store bought foods.
|
| 2) your body will do everything to remind you about those easy
| access sugars. During your detox, you will have cravings,
| dreams about sweets, even the overwhelming urge to eat stuff
| you might not even thing about "oh god, i could really go for
| some prunes right now" sort of thing.
|
| After your body gets it figured out that your no longer getting
| access to easy glucose it calms the hell down. You'll notice
| one day that sweets just don't seem that appealing. You'll get
| better at detecting sweetness in things you would have never
| considered sweet, like lettuce.
|
| I warn you sugar is insidious and everywhere. One day, you will
| sit down to some mundane meal, nothing special about it. After
| a few bites, you will say, wow this is wonderful, its the best
| thing I have ever tasted, I absolutely must have more of this
| very mundane thing, I'll need seconds, thirds, more if
| available. That meal you were eating was loaded down with
| sugar, it probably didn't taste sweet but it will taste like
| the best thing ever. That's how sugar gets you.
| k__ wrote:
| I remember doing Keto for 3 months. Stayed under 50g carbs
| per day.
|
| Lost 10kg.
|
| But it was hard.
|
| My "trick" was buying a Pepsi Max Cherry and a >80%
| chocolate, when I got cravings.
| oifjsidjf wrote:
| I had the same experience when I tried keto.
|
| The first ~12 days were hell, as if the devil possesed me,
| that is how strong sugar addiction is.
|
| But then all of the sudden it was as if cravings reduced by
| 95% in just 24 hours around day ~12.
| dataflow wrote:
| > everything has sugar in it, and you have to absolutely
| avoid it, not just sweets, fruits, juices, I'd even tell you
| diet drinks and artificial sweeteners too. That means no
| ketchup, sauces, breads, and most processed and store bought
| foods.
|
| Realistically how do you avoid sugar like this? Soft drinks,
| candy, and other artificial stuff are easy enough to avoid,
| but most bread? Fruits? What _are_ you supposed to eat and
| how are you supposed to obtain it without involving sugar?
| Are you suggesting people eat pure meat and lettuce and eggs
| for 6-8 weeks? It would be so much more helpful to give some
| examples of sample diets people could actually follow.
|
| (What specifically are you saying needs to be avoided btw?
| Sucrose and fructose and artificial sweeteners I assume, but
| not glucose?)
| asciimov wrote:
| > What specifically are you saying needs to be avoided btw?
|
| Carbs, all of them, as much as you can.
|
| Gotta think on the lines of what did human bodies evolve to
| process and use. Since sugar sources weren't always
| available, our bodies make all the glucose we need to live.
| We don't need sugar or carbs at all. Sure our body's do
| like them because it's easier for our bodies to process
| carbs to glucose than to make it from fats and other amino
| acids. This means our brain signals to eat more of the
| sugary stuff because its "free" energy.
|
| > Are you suggesting people eat pure meat and lettuce and
| eggs for 6-8 weeks?
|
| Kinda. It's scary yes, but as your body switches over to
| eating less carbs, it has to work harder to convert non
| carbs into things it can use. This levels out your blood
| sugar levels which in turn makes you less hungry.
|
| > It would be so much more helpful to give some examples of
| sample diets people could actually follow.
|
| My diet when I'm in the zone so to speak (Keto +
| intermittent fasting), looks like the following.
|
| First meal around 1pm. Salad - a store bought green mix,
| might have a little carrot with it, various lettuce (not
| iceberg or just romaine), I might throw in an egg, a
| serving of a protein (anything from steak, lunch meat, tuna
| or salmon), some cheese, maybe something salty (olives or
| peppers) and some kind of non-sugary dressing (ranch, blue
| cheese, oil and vinegar), water or unsweet tea.
|
| About 3pm - 5pm is a mixed bag and might be a snack or
| meal, and depends on hunger levels. This can be some nuts
| (almonds typically), cheese, lunch meat, protein shake, or
| just left overs.
|
| 7-8pm I'll have dinner. Bunless burgers are common, or just
| some source of protein and a veggie side. I like chicken,
| beef, pork, fish. You can make all kinds of stuff with
| them. Bake it, grill it, fry it (without breading).
| Meatloaf is good. Lots of good recipe sites, maybe you like
| tacos, so you can have them with low carb tortillas. Asian
| dishes work out too, as long as you modify them.
| Cauliflower can be subbed for rice.
|
| 8-9pm I'm likely to have another snack.
|
| 9pm-1pm - Water. I'll eat if my blood sugar levels demand
| it. But on a typical day, I avoid anything that needs to be
| digested.
| count wrote:
| An easy way to get most of the way there:
|
| - Minimal to no fruit (that includes tomato).
|
| - Don't eat anything that comes in a package or that has an
| ingredients list more than 1 item long (so, frozen broccoli
| is fine, as long as there's no extra stuff in the bag).
|
| - Don't eat anything that your great grandparents wouldn't
| have had access to.
|
| Some things, like bell peppers, will start tasting like
| candy after a few weeks of this.
| socialismisok wrote:
| But bell peppers have sugar, they are berries. I've done
| keto and had success holding sugar under, say, 10 to 12
| grams. But getting to absolute zero and eating plenty of
| fibrous veggies is tricky.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| As someone who's done every eating regimen under the sun, one
| top tip to get over the habit hump much quicker: water
| fasting.
|
| After ingesting nothing but water, coffee and electrolytes
| for 3-5 days your eating compulsions will be immediately
| reset. It's incredible how quick the effect is when you go
| extreme. It's not magic but it is pretty close.
| tsol wrote:
| I love water fasting and do it often. But it also is highly
| dependent on weight. If you're a lower weight already, it
| can be really hard to do a 3 day water fast. I used to be
| able to do them pretty easy, but after cutting weight it's
| become much harder. I do modified fasts where I take
| protein and fat both.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| I have had similar experiences; I did a lot of water
| fasting, lost a lot of weight (50lbs over 18mos), and then
| after all that fasting the sugary things just were not as
| appealing.
|
| On top of that, I find it easier to go into water fasting
| if I've been in ketosis for a bit, which is difficult in
| itself.
|
| But for that, I've found it helpful to remove other dietary
| restrictions; I don't typically eat dairy, and the stuff I
| do like to eat in keto is often much more expensive than
| the beans and rice / peanuts/ fruit that are the staples of
| my diet when I'm not trying to force ketosis or fast.
| Eating nicer food (usually meats, lots of eggs, dairy)
| makes being that process easier.
| bin_bash wrote:
| Yep. I had an unbelievable sweet tooth since I was a
| teenager. I was having 10+ cans of coke per day on top of
| multiple king size candy bars. When I was ~30 I did a 36
| hour fast and afterwards has 0 desire to have anything
| sweet for the very first time in my adult life.
|
| It came back a few weeks later, but over a few years I
| tried fasting again and it would go away every single time.
| Now I try to avoid sweets as much as I can but when old
| habits creep back in I just have a fast and it goes away.
|
| I don't really fast for any reason other than knowing it
| will take the sweet tooth away--and generally make me want
| to eat healthier.
| omgwtf1000 wrote:
| I so want to do this, but I have such a sweet tooth I don't
| think I can succeed. I can go a few days without sweets but
| then the urge is just overwhelming. I want to try weaning, by
| just eating fruit instead of processed treats. Will that have
| any effect at all, make it harder overall, or is the only way
| to just cut sugar completely?
| bityard wrote:
| As a long-term keto dieter (10+ years), my advice is never
| be afraid to experiment with your diet. Every time you try
| something new and the results were not what you were hoping
| for, treat it as a learning experience, not a failure. What
| constitutes a healthy diet (both mentally and physically)
| is different for everyone.
|
| As an example, cutting out candy and donuts for apples and
| pears isn't keto, but is objectively a step in the right
| direction. If you want to give it a try, just go for it and
| see what happens!
| maxk42 wrote:
| Merely tasting sweetness causes an anticipatory rise in
| insulin which shuts down fat metabolism. Best to go cold
| turkey, unfortunately. You can control cravings, however,
| by raising your fat intake to the point where you're too
| full to find eating more appetizing. You will still lose
| weight like this on a ketogenic diet.
| djmips wrote:
| It makes you wonder if artificial sweeteners can also do
| this. Has that been studied?
| asciimov wrote:
| They can and do. On the keto boards, there are numerous
| people that have a hard time with artificial sweeteners,
| often it causes a weight loss stall or gain while the
| rest of their numbers seem good.
| socialismisok wrote:
| It's a bit inconclusive, I believe.
| asciimov wrote:
| Think of it this way, if a drug addict said they wanted to
| stop, would you tell them they would be going good if they
| only used every 3rd day?
|
| To get the benefits of keto, you have to get the body
| adapted to burning fat. Depending on the body, this can
| take a week or so. All those cravings are the body crying
| out for a fix of easy sugar, because it really doesn't want
| to have to switch over and burn fat for fuel as its harder
| for it to do.
|
| If you just had sugar every 3rd day, you're body would
| never adjust.
| [deleted]
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Sugar is unreasonably instantly addictive and harmful in
| relation to its abundant availability. More so than alcohol or
| tobacco.
| leidenfrost wrote:
| Curiously I tried something similar yet opposite: I stopped
| eating junk food and I started eating more leafy vegetables,
| but also I stopped eating seed oils (except for olive oil and
| chia oil which is rich in omega3), and gave myself green light
| to eat whatever amount I want of foods rich in proteins and
| fats, as long as it's not ultra processed.
|
| To my surprise, my weight hasn't skyrocketed, I feel full way
| faster without having to exert loads of willpower to stop
| eating and my sugar cravings have reduced by a lot. Only from
| time to time I want to taste something sweet and even then I'm
| happy with just a green apple.
|
| Sugar is a drug and it messes with our satety hormones. No
| matter how much you eat, you end up always wanting more
| tsol wrote:
| Having had a drug problem at one point and having learned
| well out to titrate off of drugs, I feel it's helped me a lot
| with sugar. They function basically the same. You don't need
| it, but if you take it you feel nice. You also will then
| crave more, and feel sick if you don't take it in. The key
| isn't to stop all at once but to slowly lower the amount you
| take in over time and let your body slowly adjust.
| [deleted]
| verisimi wrote:
| Don't drop salt, imo.
|
| It is essential for strong stomach acid (a whole system
| benefit), your body always ensures the salt level in the blood
| (and will even extract it from bones). Ask yourself - 'what is
| the most common medical intervention' and you will see it is a
| saline drip. And farmers ensure that salt is available to the
| their cattle for their health. And Japanese have a highly salty
| diet and live long, with fewer bone breaks. And, and....
|
| Salt is essential, and a low salt diet is terrible.
|
| Then ask, why is a low salt diet recommended to people, if it
| is so good? The answer, sadly, is that the 'health' industry
| actually requires ill people - they make money treating
| disease, not from keeping people healthy. It is in the big
| pharma's interests to encourage poor behaviour, and, yes, they
| will even lobby governments to mandate behaviour that creates
| disease.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| The evidence behind the salt/hypertension link is very well
| established, with direct experimentation. I wish it weren't,
| and I realize it's highly individualized, and the average
| safe daily consumption might be higher than the current RDA,
| but let's not pretend that we can safely eat as much sodium
| as we want with no consequences.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Don't drop sugar imo
|
| For all the similar reasons you gave, except - no sugar, no
| energy. You may wonder why a skinny af cyclist will happily
| consume 6k+ calories a day, as well as shovelling glucose
| gels down. Endurance athletes get it best: long distance
| cycling is just an all-day eating competition.
| adrian_b wrote:
| The analogy between salt and sugar does not really work.
|
| Sugar is not an essential nutrient. You can eat absolutely
| no sugar without any ill effect. If you eat some starchy
| vegetables, that provides all the carbohydrates you need.
|
| Even if you want to eat 6000 kcal as carbohydrates, you can
| eat that easily from rice/maize/bread/potatoes etc., with
| no sugar. In fact it is much easier to eat a huge amount of
| food when it does not contain sugar, because even if sugar
| is addictive and makes you crave for it, when you eat too
| much sugar during a short time, it becomes disgusting when
| you try to eat more.
|
| On the other hand, if you stop eating salt, or even if you
| just eat too little salt, you will die soon, and not in a
| pleasant way (e.g. one of the symptoms of hyponatremia
| caused by eating too little salt is severe constipation,
| because various muscles, including the muscles that are
| used for the peristalsis of the intestines, lose their
| strength).
|
| Like for any essential nutrient, both eating too little
| salt and eating to much salt is bad. The recommended daily
| intake of salt is between 4 and 5 grams of salt.
|
| In order to be able to control precisely the daily intake
| of salt, I prefer to not add any salt to food during
| cooking (and I do not buy industrially made food). Instead
| of that, I add the salt only immediately prior to eating,
| so I can know exactly the amount added during a day.
| dropofwill wrote:
| For cycling, sugar (really a mix of glucose and fructose,
| which sucrose or sugar is an even mix of) is a necessary
| component to a fueling strategy because even a marginally
| fit individual will burn more in an hour than can be
| processed by the glucose pathway alone. The goal isn't to
| meet some daily allotment, but to get as much high GI
| carbs into the bloodstream as your gut can take, as fast
| as possible. This has been linked to higher performance
| and reduced fatigue in the literature, not to mention
| this is what 100% of pros do (there are no keto pros).
|
| One benefit of this, like you say, is you develop a
| general disgust for sweets and have no interest in them
| outside of training.
| adrian_b wrote:
| You are right, but this is a very specific circumstance
| when the required power output is so high that it exceeds
| the capacity of the intestine for glucose absorption.
|
| As you say, in order to achieve the maximum power output
| that can be sustained for a long time, i.e. in aerobic
| effort, you also need fructose, i.e. sugar, besides
| glucose, to reach the maximum rate of carbohydrate
| absorption in the intestine.
|
| However the vast majority of the humans may never
| encounter during their entire lives a circumstance when
| they need to produce a sustained power output so high
| that it is limited by the intestinal absorption (and
| without an appropriate training their muscles would not
| be able to sustain so much power anyway), so they never
| _need_ to eat sugar. They eat it only because it tastes
| good.
| bluescrn wrote:
| Most people on here are probably spending 10hrs/day in
| front of a screen, though. And in that case, more calories
| is unlikely to be the answer to a lack of energy/focus.
| Telemakhos wrote:
| Endurance athletes are getting frequent and strenuous
| exercise. Most people don't. There's a lot of concern and
| advice in this thread about diet, but exercising more is
| the step that's missing. We live in the hydrocarbon era of
| easy transport, which means cheap food and little exercise.
| Both of those have to be addressed for good health, not
| just the food.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Fruits and nuts.
|
| I used to consume about 1.5 litres of ice cream every day. I
| still get the cravings but less and less. Good thing my wife is
| making fruit salads for me.
| hanniabu wrote:
| > But sugar. Fuuuck I cannot walk past sweets. Sugar has claws
| in me I cannot shake.
|
| Do you know how many calories you're getting from the healthy
| food? It's actually tough to maintain 2k calories while eating
| very healthy so your body will get cravings for candy which it
| knows is calorie dense.
| socialismisok wrote:
| So, when I switched to keto and tracked _everything_ I ate,
| you are absolutely correct. It 's hard to eat enough calories
| some days.
|
| But when I'm not _totally_ focused on eating clean, I will
| eat as much sugar as I can reach.
|
| Keto helps, but it's anything but automatic. (Especially
| around the holidays.)
| pojzon wrote:
| Just a related topic. FMT seems to cure a lot of things.
|
| I had a really really bad body odor. Doctors did not help much.
|
| It seems that during one episode in life my gut biome became
| really bad (heavy deinking).
|
| Years passed and nothing helped me recover from that. Various
| health issues also depression due to that.
|
| Latest doctor asked me to try FMT.. I was sceptic but at that
| point thought to myself - hell why not.
|
| And after few months stuff started to fix by itself.
|
| We dont understand yet how much our health depends on a healthy
| gut biome..
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Had to google FMT:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant
| manmal wrote:
| Related discussion on HN yesterday:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33574568#33575598
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