[HN Gopher] The fateful, final journey of the Edmund Fitzgerald
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The fateful, final journey of the Edmund Fitzgerald
Author : DrScump
Score : 66 points
Date : 2022-11-10 11:26 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.shipwreckmuseum.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.shipwreckmuseum.com)
| cratermoon wrote:
| The most fascinating aspect of the incident to me is that the
| Edmund Fitzgerald was 728' long and sank in 535 feet of water.
| One video I saw analyzing the sinking showed that it was possible
| the ship's bow was forced down hit the bottom with 200' or so
| still above the surface.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| If memory serves, the Russian Kursk sank in water less deep
| than it was long, too. And in one piece.
| swearwolf wrote:
| Can you imagine the horror of being on the bridge, thinking
| that the bow has just submerged into a wave, and only realizing
| it's not going to come back up when you feel the ship slam into
| the lake floor?
| jcranmer wrote:
| For reference, that would be at least a 47deg incline, or
| about 108% grade. You'd probably realize the ship isn't going
| to come back when you reach 20%-ish grade.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Lakers usually have their bridge at the bow.
| bell-cot wrote:
| IANANE (not a Naval Engineer), but that scenario sounds
| _wildly_ implausible. It 's easy to "do" it with a scale model
| toy, or simplistic geometry - but out in real life, at the size
| of a lake freighter, the square-cube law is absolutely
| merciless. Below (very optimistic guess) ~120' depth, _the ship
| 's hull can no longer hold air_, to provide buoyancy. Recall
| that the water pressure a few hundred feet down is enough to
| crush a WWI submarine like an empty beer can in your fist. And
| lake freighters hulls are _not_ built to anything remotely
| resembling WWI military submarine standards.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| It's not exactly comforting, but in truth the ship broke in
| two, so that scenario is unlikely.
| sutoor wrote:
| Interestingly, the SS Arthur M. Anderson which was 10mi behind
| the Fitz when it went down, is still in use 70 years since launch
| and currently in Lake Huron.
|
| https://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/details/ships/mmsi:3669720...
| Aloha wrote:
| Lakers seem to have unusually long lives for ships because of
| the unique nature of the cargo carried, and the lack of salt
| water. As far as I can tell, many are retired because metal
| fatigue reasons, or an ship that cannot be upgraded to diesel
| propulsion.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| What _will_ put them out of service in fairly short order is
| salt exposure from _carrying_ salt.
|
| Cargill has a big salt mine in Cleveland that extends several
| miles under Lake Erie[0]. I don't know where else they're
| mining it, but it gets shipped in lakers, and it's pretty
| rough on them for obvious reasons.
|
| I toured the Mather[1] some years back (take the below decks
| and engineering tour if they're offering it), and the guide
| made a point that the fact that the Mather hadn't carried
| salt was a big factor in how well-preserved she is. Carrying
| salt is apparently the last stop before the ship breakers for
| a lot of lake steamers.
|
| [0] http://www.rockthelake.com/buzz/2017/12/cargill-salt-
| mine-cl...
|
| [1] https://greatscience.com/explore/exhibits/william-g-
| mather-s...
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| Fun fact: I went to school with the CEO of Cargill's kid.
| Huge douchebag
|
| Edit: Just looked it up and he hasn't been CEO since 2013
| DrScump wrote:
| (Lost 47 years ago today.)
| djha-skin wrote:
| I strongly believe that iron ore liquefaction ultimately proved
| the ship's demise. More about how this can happen here[1]. The
| facts all line up: - Tons of water likely getting
| into the cargo hold, wetting it down, especially if the
| crew didn't take care of shutting the cargo hold top. -
| Lots of rocking back and forth - They were carrying tons of
| iron ore - That stuff can absorb a ton of water, then when
| rocked, let it all loose at once, thus causing a top-
| heavy rocking motion that will capsize a vessel within minutes.
|
| 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG_EknYj5go
| Jun8 wrote:
| Great Lakes have claimed so many ships, deadliest being the _Lady
| Elgin_ with a loss of approximately 300 lives
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_Lady_Elgin).
|
| The huge waves that brought down _Edmund Fitzgerald_ are thought
| to be caused by the mythical Gales of November phenomenon on Lake
| Superior (https://www.mprnews.org/story/2022/11/10/lake-
| superiors-gale...), which is due to cold Arctic air from north
| colliding with very warm air from the Gulf of Mexico (we had 70s
| in Chicago this week!).
|
| From the MPRNews article:
|
| "John Swenson, a professor in the department of earth and
| environmental sciences at the University of Minnesota Duluth who
| grew up on Lake Superior, has looked at records of the biggest
| storms over the past 30 years.
|
| 'I find that the average storm, so in terms of time of the year,
| actually falls on about Nov. 10. So long story short, we get a
| storm like this, you know, on average on Nov. 10.' "
| FourHand451 wrote:
| This year fit the pattern quite well. I heard on the radio that
| there were 20' waves on Superior the other day.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| > deadliest being the Lady Elgin with a loss of approximately
| 300 lives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_Lady_Elgin).
|
| The wikipedia page isn't quite clear on the matter:
|
| > Professor Mason and Lieutenant Bartlett asserted that a
| principal cause of the collision was the lack of a $15 lantern
| on the Augusta
|
| > The judgement was based on a law that not only gave sail the
| right of way over steam, but did not require sailing vessels to
| carry running lights.
|
| It didn't matter that the Augusta was a sailing ship, it still
| had the right of way over the Lady Elgin, and it was the duty
| of the Lady Elgin to alter course to avoid the collision. But
| because the Augusta was a sailing ship it didn't need adequate
| lighting, so the Lady Elgin didn't see it until it was too
| late.
|
| By the way, the law [1] right now still gives sailing vessels
| right of way over motor vessels. The location of the wreck,
| just offshore from Chicago, 700+ miles from the nearest ocean,
| is subject to the international treaty governing the avoidance
| of collisions at sea.
|
| [1] https://www.imo.org/en/About/Conventions/Pages/COLREG.aspx
| bombcar wrote:
| > Many of these ships were never found, so the exact number of
| shipwrecks in the Lakes is unknown; the Great Lakes Shipwreck
| Museum approximates 6,000 ships and 30,000 lives lost, while
| historian and mariner Mark Thompson has estimated that the
| total number of wrecks is likely more than 25,000.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_the_Grea...
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I'm a child of the 70s. I grew up with this song being everywhere
| for a long time, but I never really paid attention, and I lived
| far from the Great Lakes, so it wasn't until I was an adult that
| I realized it was about a contemporary disaster and not some
| long-ago age-of-sail thing.
|
| The song was released in 1976, and details a sinking from only a
| year before.
| bombcar wrote:
| Things I didn't know even though this is one of my favorite
| songs:
|
| 1. The person the ship was named after died 27 years after the
| ship named after him did (he hadn't wanted the naming, the board
| overruled him).
|
| 2. The wreck is in Canada.
|
| 3. Gordon changed the lyrics of his live performances to take in
| new information not available at the time of writing.
| [deleted]
| jihadjihad wrote:
| If you haven't visited the Great Lakes, it can be hard to fathom
| how vast they are. They are really more like inland seas than
| lakes. At its deepest point, Lake Superior is about 1300ft deep,
| and edge-to-edge it measures about 350 miles across. If Lake
| Superior were drained, it could cover _the entirety of North and
| South America_ with a foot of freshwater.
|
| The northwestern coast of Michigan and the Upper Peninsula that
| bounds Lake Superior is absolutely worth a trip if you haven't
| been there.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| If you're able to time a visit to the locks in Sault Ste., MI
| for the last Friday in June you can take a tour that allows you
| to walk out onto the locks and get up close with the
| freighters. There are usually some other special tours around
| town for this "Engineer's Day" event.
|
| Our visit one year happened to fall on that day and it was an
| unexpected treat.
| h00k wrote:
| I went through them for the first time last year, without
| ever having seen them. I think I'd be equally excited either
| way. Working, I didn't get to appreciate them from the other
| angle, I assume equally as neat.
| RajT88 wrote:
| The most wild thing about the great lakes for me, is that
| there's enormous islands in the middle which you can visit.
|
| Beaver Island has an entire year-round community. Farms,
| wineries, a small airport. It was featured on some survival
| show I caught late at night once.
|
| The Manitou islands used to be inhabited. They have found
| arrowheads on the island 7000 years old. They went through a
| logging colony, to a farming colony, to them mostly just a
| collection of summer cottages, before the state finally bought
| them and made them a wild camping nature preserve. 5 miles
| offshore, and within sight of other massive islands which have
| their own wild histories.
|
| Lastly - South Manitou island has a shipwreck from the 60's
| along its shore you can still explore and dive.
|
| Mackinac island is another year-round community. No cars are
| allowed, and the historical forts from the 1800's have been all
| preserved. It's the only place I've visited which has a real,
| "Pirates of the Caribbean" feel to it.
|
| Put-in-Bay, where fishermen go to party. There's a lot of these
| places!
| [deleted]
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Obligatory link to the Gordon Lightfoot song about this disaster:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuzTkGyxkYI
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| I'm not sure if this is a sea shanty, but it reminds me of
| "Blow the Man Down"[0] which is one.
|
| [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_the_Man_Down
| cbsmith wrote:
| Obligatory link to the Paul Gross song, 32 Down on the Robert
| Mackenzie, which was composed after the show (Due South) was
| planning to do a story (featuring the song) about the Edmund
| Fitzgerald, but was convinced by the families of the deceased
| that it was better to craft something fictional:
| https://youtu.be/_d-t0959C3A
| JshWright wrote:
| Oh wow... I haven't seen (or really even thought about) that
| show in ~25 years. That was one of my favorite shows in my
| early teens. I wonder how well it would hold up these days. I
| remember it being super campy (in a fun way).
| LanternLight83 wrote:
| Relatedly, the Punch Brothers recently cover-albumed Tony
| Rice's cover of the track:
|
| https://youtu.be/DhTRNU1mnVA
| wisemang wrote:
| Rheostatics also do a great cover, here's the version from
| their live album (studio recording is also good):
| https://youtu.be/7J5hJQtMlE0
| pgm8705 wrote:
| One of my favorite songs. So many haunting lyrics. I've always
| been fascinated by "Superior, they said, never gives up her
| dead..." I've read it is in reference to the fact that because
| the lake is so cold, sunken bodies will not decompose and
| resurface. Of course, it could just be folklore.
| swearwolf wrote:
| There's a well known wreck (SS Kamloops) popular among divers
| that has a body in the engine room. Divers call it "Whitey"
| because it has saponified, and thus appears similar to a bar
| of soap.
| bch wrote:
| Kamloopsian here - TIL.
|
| Story of Alice Bettridge[0] is chilling.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kamloops
| incanus77 wrote:
| What a song -- chills me every time. I can't think of another
| historical and/or tragedy song that grips me as much as this
| one.
| quesera wrote:
| On a less historical, more personal tragedy level, "Cat's in
| the Cradle" has always hit me way harder than I would expect
| (both as a kid and an adult):
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_in_the_Cradle
|
| ... gotta make a phone call now ... :-/
| deadlyllama wrote:
| As it's listing similar songs time, Genesis' Driving the last
| spike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_the_Last_Spike
| fits in the historical(ish) story as ten minute long popular
| song territory.
|
| Arguably you could also include Telegraph Road (Dire Straits,
| 1982) although its story is even more generic.
| wging wrote:
| Hellsongs' cover of "Run to the Hills" (originally by Iron
| Maiden) is worth a listen.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguuHDW42OQ
|
| (Since Iron Maiden got another mention for Rime of the
| Ancient Mariner, I'd bet they have more to offer, but I'm not
| that knowledgeable about their work.)
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Extremely overplayed, "American Pie" by Don McLean is about
| the plane crash that killed 4 American rock stars all at the
| same time.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Music_Died
| incanus77 wrote:
| That song was always more about the narrator of the song,
| to me.
| swader999 wrote:
| Iron Maiden's adaptation of The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
| comes close. You have to get into the original work and
| perhaps have similar life experiences to appreciate it I
| suppose.
|
| The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is more accessible.
|
| http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/1696/brief-
| review-t...
| jjulius wrote:
| I was introduced to this song by a music teacher in elementary
| school, and I remember being wow'd by the story and thinking
| the song sounded cool as hell. I've almost never listened to it
| since then, but it has remained ingrained in my head for almost
| 30 years. Every couple of weeks it pops into my head, clear as
| a bell.
|
| Not sure why I'm sharing this, but yeah...
| [deleted]
| ourmandave wrote:
| To me, the old cook was the hero of that song.
| possiblydrunk wrote:
| Yes! When suppertime came, the old cook came
| on deck sayin' "Fellas, it's too rough to feed ya"
| At seven PM, a main hatchway caved in, he said "Fellas,
| it's been good to know ya"
| bombcar wrote:
| That's the lyric Lightfoot changed when sung live, to take
| into account the more recent hypothesis on how it sank:
| At seven p.m. it grew dark; it was then
|
| Which is nicer to the crew (doesn't imply it was a mistake
| on their part) but doesn't really quite flow as nicely.
| velcrovan wrote:
| Obligatory link to the parody of the Gordon Lightfoot song:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udZFnUb4Q6A
| pseudolus wrote:
| More historical photos that include some shots of the underwater
| remains of the wreck:
|
| https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/11/wreck-of-the-edmund-fitzg...
| bell-cot wrote:
| Well worth a read, if you're seriously interested:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald#Maintenance
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald#Structural_f...
|
| Huge waves (running down the ship's length) obviously put
| _extreme_ stresses on the hull of a long, thin, heavily-loaded
| ship. And the Fitzgerald 's wreck is broken into two pieces,
| right in the middle.
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(page generated 2022-11-11 23:01 UTC)