[HN Gopher] My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal
___________________________________________________________________
My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal
Author : bangonkeyboard
Score : 726 points
Date : 2022-11-09 14:29 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (medium.com)
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Given the presented facts and damaged professional reputation,
| why is this an "open letter" and not a defamation lawsuit?
| [deleted]
| mastax wrote:
| It seems that Mick doesn't like getting lawyers involved,
| potentially to his detriment.
| moogly wrote:
| Indeed, lawyers will be involved now; just not on his side...
| Paul_S wrote:
| Zenimax has more money
| s_dev wrote:
| I would expect this story from a struggling indie game dev
| startup but ID Games, Zenimax, Mick Gordon and Stratton are all
| huge players in the game dev industry -- thus this looks bad for
| the industry as a whole. I was always curious about why the Doom
| Eternal OST never really showed up on Spotify. This story
| explains that.
| [deleted]
| some-guy wrote:
| > thus this looks bad for the industry as a whole
|
| The industry has almost always been terrible for decades now,
| this situation is just another drop in the bucket of terrible
| stories.
| Comevius wrote:
| On the contrary, after the horror stories coming from Ubisoft
| and Activision Blizzard, sometimes requiring the government to
| intervene, my expectation is really low. If anything this is a
| dull affair since nobody got killed or sexually harrassed.
| enneff wrote:
| This would never happen with an indie studio because they
| wouldn't have the deep pockets to legally strong arm the
| contractor. If both parties were small businesses then the
| threat of legal action from either side would keep them both
| form misbehaving.
| deng wrote:
| Ugh, what a horror story. I mean, crunch is terrible enough, but
| I can't imagine how exhausting it must be for music production,
| especially when it's this kind of balls-to-the-wall power-metal
| stuff that is used for DOOM. While I can appreciate that it's
| really well done, I actually had to turn it off during the game
| because it was just too much for my ears.
| MDGeist wrote:
| As a musician I understand his desire to deliver a finished work
| that everyone could be happy with even after he was given strong
| incentives to just bail on it. It is a shame that the OST he
| wanted to release wasn't able to happen.
| sasas wrote:
| The original post by Marty always crossed my mind when listening
| to the OST sound track. It never really added up. Mick always
| came across a person with integrity - both artistic and
| otherwise. Now my mind can be put at rest.
|
| The behavior of Marty in the way it's described comes across
| classic narcissistic behaviors. Hopefully Mick has learned to
| recognize this early on in future engagements and to tread very
| carefully. This applies to all people in power in companies. Do
| not trust until that trust is earnt, no matter how friendly or
| forthcoming they appear.
|
| I learnt this early in my career and can (hopefully) can spot
| these people quickly before they gain too much leverage. Give
| them nothing that can be used against you because there is a good
| chance it will come back to bite.
| enneff wrote:
| Based on how passionate Mick is about his work, and how
| incredibly polished his Doom 2016 work was, I always found it
| unbelievable that he would have been responsible for the Doom
| Eternal mess. I had no idea the details would be this messy.
| skrebbel wrote:
| This Marty person seems like a full on psychopath. I always
| wonder with stories like these how the lawyers feel after a day's
| work. Like, "hi daddy, how was work?" - "oh it was fantastic, we
| strong armed an independent musician into getting screwed over by
| our client, an ambitious psychopath!" -hugs-
| crazydoggers wrote:
| Parent comment might seem flip, but it's actually a real and
| important point. There are quite a number of people with anti
| social personality disorder within corporate management
| structures. Marty has all of the hallmark signs.
|
| I think the real sad part is that Mick wasn't able to identify
| Marty's personality type at the outset, and seemed to keep
| falling for his lies, gaslighting, and manipulation, and under
| estimated the degree to which someone like him would throw
| someone under the bus at a moments notice.
|
| Mental heal of corporate America definitely needs more
| examination, because with this type of wealth and power, it
| often ruins lives both big and small.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I think the real sad part is that Mick wasn't able
| to identify Marty's personality type at the outset
|
| The sociopathic and sociopathy-adjacent people who rise to
| these positions of power are _very good_ at cloaking
| behaviors.
|
| They're not obviously creepy jerks hiding in the bushes near
| a playground wearing filthy clothing, leering at the children
| and planning an abduction. Nobody wants to work with people
| like that and they almost never become successful.
|
| The ones who do climb the ranks generally have a lot of
| positive traits. That's what makes them so dangerous. One
| minute they're doing something legitimately good. The next
| minute they're pulling sociopathic moves.
|
| Somebody like Jeffrey Epstein is a great example.
| Accomplished socialite, donated to great causes and
| institutions, personable, even had a close female friend so
| he couldn't be an abuser, right? Except he was, obviously.
| The lesson for me was not that people were gullible, it was
| that some of these predators are simply _that_ good at
| cloaking themselves.
|
| (To be crystal clear, I'm not saying Marty is as bad as
| Epstein, or directly comparing them in any way whatsoever.
| I'm just saying: successful jerks are usually a complex mix
| of good and bad traits. In Marty's defense he's in a high
| pressure role with a lot of money on the line and lots of
| crap to navigate and perhaps is trying his best but has come
| up short. I don't know.)
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I blame everything but the lawyers. A functional and just legal
| system depends on both parties having effective legal
| representation. Our current system falls far short of that
| ideal but I never feel that lawyers are the issue.
|
| It's the system itself, as well as the Zenimaxes and Martys of
| the world, that I blame.
| monadology wrote:
| It's worth noting as well that the decision to settle is (at
| least nominally) reserved solely to the client. If
| Marty/id/Zenimax say no settlement, hold the line then
| ultimately the outside law firm can't do much to wrap things
| up. They can drop the client, but that has issues of its own.
| I think corporate law uses the rationale about legal
| representation to shield itself from much soul-searching
| around bad behavior, but that's another discussion and the
| underlying principle is certainly true.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Sure, but how are those stalling tactics and threat-laden
| scare letters "effective legal representation" and not just
| bullying the little guy?
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I think we both hate those toxic, bullying behaviors.
|
| But lawyers don't do those things on their own. They're
| doing it at the express direction of ZeniMax. They may even
| be direct employees of Zenimax, who knows.
|
| I'm not totally absolving lawyers from blame, but they're
| much closer to being a symptom than the problem.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Corporate lawyers with feelings are selected out very early.
| bitwize wrote:
| Well, Id is pretty much yet another AAA sweatshop in my view now,
| just like Naughty Dog.
|
| When the principals of a game studio known for innovating and
| having fun leave, the studio seems to morph into an ugly, EA-
| shaped default.
| twblalock wrote:
| All AAA studios are sweatshops and everyone has known that for
| years.
| kar1181 wrote:
| If you read up on Tim Willits' time at id it seems like a proper
| protege took his reigns.
|
| In my early career I lamented not going into games development
| but goodness what a bullet dodged.
| Asooka wrote:
| Well, there are some good places to work. I've heard Hello
| Games (makers of No Man's Sky) are pretty alright,
| notwithstanding the kerfuffle with their initial release of
| NMS. I've had some acquaintances working in various Ubisoft
| locations say it's not bad.
|
| Though even if it is a well-managed studio, you'll still have
| to deal with occasional crunch to meet holiday deadlines and
| such, plus the pay is often lower than similar positions in
| other sectors.
| loupol wrote:
| This is a really long read. If you want a summary the Factual
| rebuttal at the end and the TL;DR are good.
|
| Really damning account regarding Id's management and Marty
| Stratton in particular, and it seems like he's got a rather
| thorough paper trail to back it up. The worst I feel is him not
| being paid for half the music used in game that he produced and
| then discredited by lies on social media, and those are things he
| can clearly prove with the payments that were made and legal
| contracts he signed.
|
| An actual contractor horror story, this will probably make future
| composers be very careful when signing anything with Id Software
| as long as management remains the same there.
| c0l0 wrote:
| > It was a masterpiece in Excel but a disaster in reality.
|
| I feel you.
| Arrath wrote:
| Too often those who build the schedule are entirely divorced
| from reality, yet also insulated from the effects their
| schedule has.
| cragfar wrote:
| I don't do much contract work or deal with the video game
| industry at all, so I'm wondering was Mick just being overly
| understanding here about the payment issues? Someone refusing to
| pay me for work would instantly shut down any work I do with
| them. And my head nearly exploded when I read the part about how
| they secretly published a soundtrack that they didn't pay for,
| and then agreed to be pay for it only if he did another
| soundtrack for them.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Delayed or never received payments are common for video game
| freelancers. Most projects fail, and so the likelihood you
| don't get paid out for a portion of your work is very high. You
| just have to eat it and set your rates accordingly. iD/Zennimax
| are big enough there's no excuse here, but as far as mentality
| anyone that's been freelancing in games has probably crossed
| over into this territory of just hoping the client stops being
| an idiot at least once if they're honest.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| If it's so common why don't the well known freelancers insist
| on upfront payments?
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| These contracts are very asymmetric in negotiating power.
| That's actually true of gaming in general: as both an
| artist or coder you'll almost certainly make more money and
| have a much better work life balance outside of gaming.
| Freelancers are even more disposable.
|
| Basically, people who wanna make games do so mostly out of
| personal passion, and that means they get pretty screwed in
| negotiating compensation.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| How does that stop them from negotiating a lower rate,
| but paid upfront?
| Arrath wrote:
| That relies on the other party agreeing to such terms.
| They may well choose a pay-later setup offered by an
| otherwise more expensive contractor, and then go on to
| play accounting reindeer games just like this.
| mywittyname wrote:
| Sounds like he let he guard down due to having a prior
| relationship with iD.
| enneff wrote:
| And he's an artist and writing the music for a doom game is a
| huge creative opportunity for him. id clearly took advantage
| of that. Too many companies exploit artists who believe in
| their art. It sucks.
| yrro wrote:
| Jesus Christ.
|
| I feel sorry for anyone who ever has to work or deal with Marty
| Stratton or Bethesda.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| At the end of the day, this is a bog-standard contract dispute
| over creative differences, and now these guys have to hash it out
| in the court of public opinion, because some gamers didn't feel
| like the soundtrack was good enough for their money, and started
| making a stink? Good grief. "Social" media is killing society.
| s_dev wrote:
| >because some gamers didn't feel like the soundtrack was good
| enough for their money, and started making a stink?
|
| I would compare Mick Gordon's contribution to the Doom game
| here to that of Howard Shore in Lord of the Rings. The
| experience is fundamentally limited without the music.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| But that wasn't the problem, was it? They got "the music."
| nazgulsenpai wrote:
| They should have paid him the 300 hrs just for the Super Gore
| Nest track.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| A lot of this feels a little "glutton for punishment". Like, they
| keep f*cking with him yet he continues to interact..
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| I think it is more of a lobster in the pot situation. Every
| contractor is used to watching as the business side of an
| effort fucks everything up and doing their best to deliver
| despite the best efforts of managers and lawyers everywhere.
| SOWs not matching the original description? Asking to start
| work before the ink dries? Actually we dont want to pay for
| that thing we said we would pay for after all? No b2b
| transaction goes without at least one of those. In consulting
| lingo we call it "pricing in some slack" and its a lesson every
| rookie learns on their first ever contract 100% of the time.
|
| He just didn't notice when it became irredeemable because hey,
| he's been working with DOOM for decades at this point and it's
| always worked out.
| beeboop wrote:
| He had a lot at stake a lot of incentives to work something out
| with them. Not everyone can afford to just hire lawyers
| immediately and only talk through lawyers and burn bridges even
| further than they're already burned.
| stryan wrote:
| Pre-OST it sounds like he kept interacting in hopes that they
| would pay him on time. For the OST, I suppose a combination of
| professional decency and the fact that his name was already
| attached to the release kept him going.
|
| Mick Gordon's been a household name thanks to his legendary
| DOOM(2016) soundtrack, so I'm not surprised he was trying to
| keep it up. A musician can really live or die by their name
| recognition and that open letter did a helluva number to his
| reputation.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| > the fact that his name was already attached
|
| couldn't he have sued on the basis his name was attached to
| it?
| stryan wrote:
| Quite possibly, but that's a lot of money to put up against
| a company (zenimax) known for their legal team. It would
| also mean never working with id/zenimax/bethesda/possibly
| even Microsoft game studios in general again.
| rasz wrote:
| Zenimax is run by IP lawyers, Im sure they have everything
| on paper.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I'm not a lawyer, but this is a difficult road. You can't
| sue merely because somebody wrote mean or untrue things.
|
| You have to prove that they're untrue _and_ that they
| caused you harm.
|
| In Mick's case, that harm would presumably take the form of
| lost income in form of work he _didn 't_ receive from other
| companies due to Marty's false claims. That's difficult
| (read: expensive) to prove in court.
|
| Also, as others have noted, suing iD/Zenimax would also be
| some level of professional suicide. There are way more
| talented arts than there are paying artist gigs. That means
| game companies have hundreds or thousands of artists to
| choose from, and they consciously or subconsciously filter
| out the "risky" ones.
| twic wrote:
| Reading this account, written from a position of hindsight,
| absolutely.
|
| But when you're in the thick of it, involved with a project you
| really want to succeed, and which has an impact on your
| reputation, it is so, so easy to convince yourself that it's
| all a misunderstanding and you just need to keep trying.
| Particularly if you are a good-hearted person yourself. I've
| certainly suffered from this (and very few people who know me
| would agree that i need to be _more_ of an arsehole!).
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Half of it is that, and half of it is that it is standard
| procedure for contract artists to _not be caught standing in a
| court of law_. Nobody wants to hire people who sue.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| > Nobody wants to hire people who sue
|
| so why bother ever paying one?
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Because that gives the studio the reputation of being a
| deadbeat. All the incentives point towards "keep disputes
| private and resolve them out of court if possible".
|
| Obviously, if the studios _never pay_ , then nobody agrees
| to work for them, and the whole system of creative
| production just collapses.
|
| Related note: iD is going to have a harder time hiring
| composers now that this is public.
| fartsucker69 wrote:
| mlyle wrote:
| Perhaps, but he has provided actual evidence that conflicts
| with Marty's public open letter (late date of contract
| finalization; work on soundtrack excluding him far prior to
| being near the deadline).
| bak3y wrote:
| Why is it so hard to believe that a giant software project
| was mismanaged? Not like anyone has ever seen that before.
| koollman wrote:
| Having worked as a contractor ... sometimes, you hope things
| will get better or at least tolerable, or you go on because
| still need to be paid because stopping may mean you get
| nothing (bad contracts). It's a pretty common topic for
| contractors.
| Jiro wrote:
| I think "managers want to cover up bad management and blame
| someone else" is a perfectly logical reason for Id Software
| to act this way.
| mariusor wrote:
| That's why you go to reddit and read the open letter and then
| you decide which sounds more plausible.
| camgunz wrote:
| IDK "game studio doesn't allot enough time to make game,
| narcissistic manager works very hard to get anyone else to
| take the fall" isn't at all hard for me to believe.
|
| This dude has screenshots, file metadata, and a contract to
| back him up. That contract says 12 songs. Sounds like that's
| all there is to it.
| nimbius wrote:
| "Afterwards, he offered me a six-figure settlement to never speak
| about it."
|
| Mick, thats not a settlement, thats a _payoff_ for taking a hit
| so the boss doesnt take the fall.
|
| Marty wanted this to go away so he could continue ladder-climbing
| the tech industry. that he even attempted to do this strongly
| suggests hes probably paid these things out before.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| Tangent, but I always wonder how these kind of payments are
| paid for. Would it be out of pocket money for Marty, or would
| he let Mick bill some phantom hours and have the company pay
| for it?
| FeistySkink wrote:
| It's a simple contract with all conditions spelled out. The
| company pays.
| jszymborski wrote:
| Why would companies go to bat for these execs that are
| liabilities? Why not pay out the settlement and send Marty
| to Zenimax's St Helena division to prevent having to pay
| this sort of thing out again? (or worse, risk the damage of
| having someone not willing to take hush money like Mr.
| Gordon).
| FeistySkink wrote:
| Having been in a similar situation on a lot smaller and
| insignificant scale, I wish I could say something
| coherent: I wrote and re-edited a long rant here, before
| ultimately deleting it. But then I see the Adam Neumanns
| et al. of this world still continuing to be successful
| despite their numerous public and not so screw-ups that
| add up to billions, and realize that it's the usual "A
| times B times C equals X".
| bombcar wrote:
| Because six figures is cheap compared to all the other
| things they pay for.
|
| It happens way more than you think.
| mywittyname wrote:
| And yet, they tried their damnedest to screw Mick out of
| a similar amount of money.
|
| Which leads me to believe this isn't cheap for them at
| all.
| jszymborski wrote:
| Yah, I think this falls under the category of a bad
| business decision that was easier to make because it was
| reactionary and not preventative.
| bombcar wrote:
| Different times, different problems.
|
| I've seen companies spend tens of hours of multiple
| employee's time to reduce a one-time cost by $1k, and
| then because of that reduction spend $10k elsewhere.
|
| Not my budget, not my problem.
| Loughla wrote:
| >Why would companies go to bat for these execs that are
| liabilities?
|
| 1. Companies are not alive. They are synthetic entities
| made up of individuals. They do not make decisions on
| their own. Their decisions are dictated by the decisions
| of the individuals inside of the company.
|
| 2. If I work in AP and receive a notice from a company
| executive to pay a contract that is signed by said
| executive (if they have clearance in policy to do so) and
| the person we're paying, we have all of the back end
| paperwork we need to pay it out, I'm paying it out. My
| job as AP is not to judge right or wrong. It's to process
| according to acceptable accounting practices, in general,
| and corporate policy specifically.
|
| In other words, why do people act like a company is this
| mysterious creature able to sort right from wrong, and
| ignore the influence people like actual executives of
| that company can have on processes?
| jszymborski wrote:
| You can rephrase my statement to be
|
| "Why would this synthetic entity made up of individuals
| go to bat for these execs that are liabilities?" I'm not
| sure that it makes the answer clearer.
|
| It's hard to imagine a company w/o the transparency along
| the chain of command required to detect and prohibit and
| executive from getting hush-money rubber stamped. At
| least not one that actually makes money and isn't robbed
| blind by its middle-management.
|
| On a side note, I've more than once gotten the trademark
| HN pedantry about "Companies not being people, but made
| up of them" and it never surprises me that people feel
| the need to remind me of it. When someone says "Company X
| made decision Y", it is short-hand for "The people
| responsible at Company X made decision Y". This is
| commonly accepted English.
|
| I don't think companies are mysterious creatures able to
| sort right from wrong, I think they are made up of
| individuals who can sort right from wrong.
| tb_technical wrote:
| Unfortunately, abusing artists in media companies has become the
| norm.
|
| Hollywood and the Music industry set the example for how to
| extract maximum value from an artist while keeping them desperate
| for money. Unfortunately, those Hollywood behaviours seem to have
| jumped to game development.
|
| It's disgusting.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Unfortunately, abusing artists in media companies has become
| the norm.
|
| Since the early 1920s.
| staindk wrote:
| Wow I vaguely remember that reddit thread and I think I felt a
| bit confused about it. Seemed like such an OTT reaction to
| something that should be handled internally - and then for a
| public statement you would keep it short, sweet and indirect
| (i.e. 2 paragraphs where you don't blame anyone except maybe
| yourself and some section of the company).
|
| Very glad Mick made this thorough post.
| barbariangrunge wrote:
| Remember all the toxic anti-mick comments in that thread,
| saying it was all micks fault? The post really made people turn
| on him
| randomNumber7 wrote:
| A lot of assholery going on at ID management, but mick did a lot
| of mistakes himself.
|
| He probably should just have sued them to pay for all the music
| and to not put his name on the OST...
|
| And why in the world would you trust that marty guy after talking
| with him on the phone. That just ... Also it would probably
| helped his reputation, to write some of this (the part about the
| OST) earlier in the doom reddit as response to marty.
| Karliss wrote:
| Is it known why this response comes out now, 2-3 years after the
| "DOOM Eternal OST Open Letter" to which it responds? Waiting
| until any related NDAs time out?
| Centigonal wrote:
| Mick goes into detail about how he's been pursuing a
| settlement, and resorted to posting this after years of
| stalling from Zenimax.
| filoleg wrote:
| The post explains it quite well, I suggest reading it. I know
| it is a long read, but there is zero fluff or wasted space on
| much personal musings in there, all pure factual content.
|
| Tl;dr: very messy legal proceedings and multiple settlement
| offers (including a proposed gag order that ZeniMax's legal
| team was trying to force upon Gordon) are the reason for why.
| And those legal negotiations started less than 2 years ago,
| after the release of the game. And throughout that whole post,
| it is evident that Gordon (despite being wronged multiple times
| in a row) pretty much kept giving them second, third, fourth,
| etc. chances to resolve it amicably, as he believed it was in
| the best interests of the projects ultimately succeeding. Only
| to get taken advantage of and being stabbed in the back
| multiple times by the same person he decided to give those
| extra chances and forgiveness to.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Seems obvious to me. Making a public statement is always going
| to be the option of last resort for a professional. Seems like
| Mick did everything he could and finally did this as his last
| ditch attempt to at least rescue his reputation.
| mywittyname wrote:
| I'm surprised that he can't issue a DCMA takedown of Doom
| Eternal.
| enneff wrote:
| The ownership of those works is certainly a complex issue.
| Contractually ownership would have been assigned to id, but
| what happens for unpaid work? What about works in progress?
| Depends on the contract terms and the interpretation of
| those terms. Sounds like a lot of grey areas, and there can
| be significant repercussions for making spurious DMCA
| claims.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| Mick says in the statement that he feels like he has exhausted
| every other avenue of addressing the Open Letter and lack of
| payment for all of the music used in the game, this is pretty
| much a last resort that he didn't want to have to publish.
| agentultra wrote:
| What a story. I've had to take action against bad clients before
| when I was working as a consultant. Never a fun process.
|
| Mick's work on the soundtrack is such a huge component of what
| made these games great. His dedication to the final product and
| the fans is admirable. I hope he doesn't have to go through
| something like this again. The stress alone is not worth it.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| I had a real feeling Mick got the shaft over this one. A real
| shame, his OST would have been absolutely badass.
|
| What a waste of time for everyone involved, they certainly won't
| find anyone better for scoring the next ID games.
|
| I hope he lands on his feet, whatever he does next.
| somuchfordonor wrote:
| This forum is full of people with amnesia over how many id Tech
| people are assholes.
| randomNumber7 wrote:
| But John Carmack is such a great programmer. How can these
| people be assholes? /s
| filoleg wrote:
| John Carmack had no hand in DOOM (2016), and was out of iD
| Software for quite a while by that point, so I have no idea
| why you felt the need to bring him up.
| 6thsurvivor wrote:
| He had, he worked on the level editor: https://twitter.co
| m/id_aa_carmack/status/610468397554499584
| five82 wrote:
| id Software has a long history of dysfunctional
| management that goes back to its inception. It's probably
| not fair to single out John Carmack but there was plenty
| of backstabbing. All four founders left the company on
| bad terms.
| somuchfordonor wrote:
| > so I have no idea why you felt the need to bring him
| up.
|
| This is what we are lampooning.
| [deleted]
| CoolGuySteve wrote:
| Horror stories like this are the main reason I only ever bill by
| the hour and invoice biweekly. Like, sure, I'll change things to
| meet requirements but I'm not going to work for free or go
| without pay for months. It's also much easier to fire bad clients
| or to stop working when an invoice goes unpaid for too long.
|
| The only downside to this approach is when salaried subordinates
| don't understand this dynamic and rack up billable hours with
| useless meetings or busywork. Oftentimes when this happens
| management doesn't realize it until they get sticker shock from
| an invoice which is why I try to issue invoices frequently.
| ncallaway wrote:
| One thing that surprised me was milestone billing with
| approvals, but moving on to the next milestone without getting
| approval on previous ones.
|
| I agree with you, this project structure sounds... much worse
| than T&M billing, but if I were going to take on a contract in
| this structure I would have a simple rule of "I won't work on
| the next milestone, without getting approval on the prior one"
| (for something like this, where the milestones are pretty
| small, maybe I'd be willing to work one milestone ahead).
|
| But I'd absolutely use the schedule pressure as a tool to get
| them to care about approvals. Because, from the described
| contract structure, what incentive does the client have to give
| timely approvals or rejections? None!
| blitz_skull wrote:
| Another alternative to hourly billing is value-based pricing
| with up-front payments. May not work in every industry, but if
| a client isn't willing to do that, they're probably not a good-
| faith client anyway.
| mjmsmith wrote:
| As an independent developer, I stop working as soon as more
| than once invoice is outstanding. Anything else is asking to be
| left holding the bag (or more of it than you already are.)
| JohnBooty wrote:
| why I try to issue invoices frequently.
|
| Agree 100%.
|
| Although I've found that for this to be effective, you also
| need to be able to cease work which means you need a
| sufficiently large financial cushion.
|
| A long time ago, when I contracted, I was essentially living
| month to month. I invoiced frequently but clients would often
| pay up in a painfully slow manner. But I had no real leverage
| because I was unable to cease work.
|
| Kudos to contractors who achieve what I wasn't quite able to.
| [deleted]
| dspillett wrote:
| _> Horror stories like this are the main reason I only ever
| bill by the hour and invoice biweekly._
|
| This sort of thing is why I've always kept a salaried position.
| I could make more, perhaps have more varied & interesting work,
| and maybe gain other flexibility, if I switched to contracting,
| but few people extolling these benefits to me ever mention the
| flip side when things aren't perfect - I'm more than happy to
| make less to avoid all that.
|
| From the article:
|
| _> The contract never showed up._
|
| _> but if I needed more time, they would be happy to amend the
| contract later_
|
| No contract, no work. Work starts late because of no fault of
| mine, including late/no contract? Delivery is likely delayed.
| Want me to accept an assurance: put it in the contract or
| otherwise in indisputable writing now. This probably marks me
| as someone unsuited for contract work, or too difficult to work
| with as a contractor, ete, and that is fine by me!
| brightball wrote:
| > This probably marks me as someone unsuited for contract
| work, or too difficult to work with as a contractor, ete, and
| that is fine by me!
|
| This actually makes you an ideal contractor, you just have to
| know how to do this tactfully.
|
| The real issue with this situation is working as a contractor
| on a single project. At the point you're working for one
| client, full time, as a contractor...you're an employee.
|
| If you've got no other clients, you have no ability to
| negotiate with the simple statement, "I have other clients I
| have to tend to and can't dedicate time to this work until
| the contract is addressed. Let me know when you're ready to
| resume."
| tpxl wrote:
| > The real issue with this situation is working as a
| contractor on a single project. At the point you're working
| for one client, full time, as a contractor...you're an
| employee.
|
| I disagree. I currently work as a contractor for one
| company more or less fully time. Because I'm a contractor,
| not an employee, I get to choose my hardware and OS, my own
| hours, I can take vacation when I want and most
| importantly, the employer can't force me to work in office.
|
| Contract renewal is coming up soon, my rate is going up,
| and if they don't agree to it I'll just leave (if anyone
| needs a senior Java dev, email in bio :)).
|
| > If you've got no other clients, you have no ability to
| negotiate with the simple statement
|
| You don't need to negotiate, you need to assert you wont do
| free work and then don't do it.
| brightball wrote:
| I suppose I should have said, "You have to be able to
| walk away."
|
| For some people, that will mean multiple clients. For
| others, it might just be self confidence or good savings.
| x55j33 wrote:
| > Work starts late because of no fault of mine
|
| Yes, but apparently in Mick's case your name is on the
| product, and your reputation gets ruined if you don't play
| ball. A big software company can pay lawyers much longer than
| you can keep food on the table without pay.
| randomNumber7 wrote:
| Even good lawyers would have trouble bending the obvious.
| He had no contract to produce the OST (first) and he could
| have publicly claimed, that he only produced the game music
| and was not involved in that final mix of the OST.
| barbazoo wrote:
| People arguing over email, I'm shocked that didn't work out /s
| nvarsj wrote:
| Truly insane. It's a shame Mick had to go public on this so hard,
| I feel it has undoubtedly hurt his professional career. But what
| Marty/id Software did here is completely unacceptable and
| absolutely disgusting. What a mess.
| another_devy wrote:
| I don't think he is going any hard in-fact all of his post is
| completely focused on his treatment. He could've exposed
| Marty's/id's treatment with others. I think he still is trying
| to avoid confrontation in court, maybe settle outside.
| Ghoyome wrote:
| WTH?!??? I'm never buying a thing directed by this douchebag
| Marty ever again.
| libraryatnight wrote:
| I really enjoyed DOOM Eternal, but I rarely follow communities
| for games online so I didn't realize this was such a thing. Sad
| that a great game spawned such a nasty situation. It does seem
| Mick is in the right, here, this didn't have to go this way.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| ZeniMax makes EA look like Valve. Truly the worst corporate scum
| imaginable.
| causality0 wrote:
| Remember when they decided they owned the word "scroll" and
| started suing anyone else who used it?
| nottorp wrote:
| And Prey.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| And what they did to Carmack
|
| And the Oculus lawsuit
|
| And... so on.
| brightball wrote:
| The most shocking thing about this situation to me is that he
| didn't get an attorney involved after 2 months without pay. 2
| months is generous.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| It's easy to say, and important to do, but also hard to do.
|
| These relationships always have a hugely asymmetrical power
| balance. As a contractor your reputation is so critical and the
| games industry is a small place. And there are far more artists
| than jobs.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Contracts are in actuality tend to be based on trust. The
| contract probably said the payment was due when tracks were
| approved. If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks,
| then Mick is in trouble.
|
| If the contract were instead structured payment on delivery,
| then iD is in trouble if Mick delivers substandard work.
|
| Even if Marty's side of the story were 100% true (which seems
| doubtful), throwing a hissy-fit on Reddit basically stating
| "I hired a terrible person to do the music so don't blame me"
| is a bad look.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks,
| then Mick is in trouble. If the contract were
| instead structured payment on delivery, then iD is
| in trouble if Mick delivers substandard work.
|
| Thank you for stating this so clearly and succinctly. There
| are a lot of simplistic "should have had a better contract!
| should have had a lawyer!" etc type comments here.
|
| Aside from extremely trivial stuff (and maybe not even
| then) contracts and lawyers aren't perfect magic armor for
| either side.
|
| You still need both parties to act in relatively good faith
| or somebody is going to be screwed over to some extent.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I might not have gotten it had I not seen it happen with
| (construction) contractors.
|
| A sub-contractor did terrible work, and took out a
| mechanic's lien on our house nearly immediately after
| completion. One of their workers then assaulted my wife
| when she yelled at his mother (his mother apparently
| handled the finances and was trying to pressure my wife
| into signing something she didn't agree with about the
| quality of work).
|
| On the other hand, mechanic's liens exist specifically
| for the case where the general contractor is not being
| timely with payment to subs; it's basically the only
| lever they have. In this case the lien was improper, and
| the AG told us we should sue if we didn't have evidence
| of it being lifted by EOD. I do wonder how many people
| just capitulate and pay for shoddy work just to make them
| go away.
| brightball wrote:
| True. Touched on this in my other comment too.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33535123
|
| Reading through this particular situation though, he was in a
| unique position to negotiate due to all of management
| bungles.
|
| 1. Original soundtrack author.
|
| 2. Conference announcement that he would be producing the
| sound track as presales exploded.
|
| There were others as well.
|
| I'm a very patient person, but one thing I've learned over
| the years is that you can't drag your feet when people are
| intentionally stalling you.
|
| Within 2 weeks of the E3 announcement after multiple attempts
| to get it resolved, you have to make it clear that you can't
| continue working without a contract in place.
|
| I'm sure it's a "hindsight is 20/20" situation, but it was
| hard to read through all of that management abuse without
| seeing him put his proverbial foot down.
| mywittyname wrote:
| An announcement on Twitter that he's not under contract to
| do an OST would have been amusing.
| bombcar wrote:
| It's hard to find _good_ legal representation you can trust
| and is knowledgeable about the industry /situation.
|
| It is very easy to find a lawyer who will take your money,
| however.
| brightball wrote:
| That's a very valid statement, but at the same time you
| have to be prepared for it if you plan to be a contractor
| anyway.
|
| You need your own agreements. You need somebody to review
| agreements presented to you. If there are IP concerns you
| need to have clear legal language present around that as
| well.
|
| To get there, it's worth it to network in attorney
| circles. It's well worth it.
| bombcar wrote:
| Yeah, it absolutely surprises me the number of people who
| will work with _custom_ contracts and don 't even know
| the name of a lawyer.
|
| It's one thing if you're signing the bog-standard real
| estate deal paperwork, it's another if you're doing
| custom contracts related to work.
| tpxl wrote:
| > It's one thing if you're signing the bog-standard real
| estate deal paperwork
|
| There are no standard contracts, and there are especially
| no standard contracts you're signing for the first time.
|
| I have a 'custom' contract with a company I work for and
| it's 4 pages long and easy to understand.
| busterarm wrote:
| In creative industries it's incredibly common not to get paid
| for 6 months or more.
|
| I remember a certain animation studio based out of NYC that
| worked on an entire animated series for 9 months after only
| getting paid for the first episode and then their client had a
| meeting with them and said "Jesus told me not to do this
| project". That was the end of the project and the studio.
| Nobody got paid. They were already constantly 6 months behind
| paying their animators before taking on that job...
| Quixotica1 wrote:
| Yikes, that Marty sure seems like an asshole, huh?
| causality0 wrote:
| Out of curiosity, has there _ever_ been a gag agreement that wasn
| 't put forth by an absolute asshole to cover up their asshole
| behavior? Like are they ever used for good?
| kazinator wrote:
| Yes; among the kinds of restraining orders _against_ assholes,
| there can be provisions against certain kinds of public speech
| on certain topics (e.g. which would be harassing to someone).
| ARandumGuy wrote:
| By their very nature, gag agreements tend not to go public.
| Therefore, we're probably not going to get any stories of
| "good" gag agreements in the news.
| youguyssuck wrote:
| One example might be to protect the name of the victim in
| sexual harassment/abuse cases
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Non disparagement clauses are gonna be common in any settlement
| where the other party has the legal upper hand. A wrongful
| termination would be an example, where the settling party would
| want assurances the manager won't pull a Marty on reddit.
| 8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote:
| I stand with Mick for speaking out. Fuck you, pay me. Looking
| forward to more from him in the future.
| jbm wrote:
| Already deleted from the r/doom front page despite hundreds of
| upvotes.
|
| Example:
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/yqjvzu/mick_gordon_po...
| WayToDoor wrote:
| It seems pinned, not deleted
| beeboop wrote:
| It's sad any time I see fellow proletariat or PMC doing free
| work for billion dollar companies and to the detriment of other
| people just trying to make a living.
| chx wrote:
| It isn't, it's on the top of the page, heavily upvoted and
| awarded. It seems one of the mods deleted their account though
| after admitting they have friends at Bethesda.
| https://i.imgur.com/8E7bOoQ.jpeg
| https://old.reddit.com/user/Mr-R00T
| jbm wrote:
| It didn't show up in best, the top of the day, nor the top of
| the hour when I posted the above, but I am glad that it is
| pinned.
|
| (I use Apollo but I was looking via the old. site; I wonder
| if that might be the cause?)
| scambier wrote:
| Almost all the biggest subs, or popular subs tied to a
| commercial product, have shitty moderators. They're either
| modding dozens of subs or have conflicts of interest with
| said products.
| ram4jesus wrote:
| This is so widespread it really lends to the conspiracy
| (almost certainly true) that most viral reddit content is
| astroturfed. Perfect example, one of the premier
| journalists in esports, Richard Lewis, cannot have his
| excellent and often-ground-breaking content posted to the
| LoL subreddit because the mods are in bed with Riot.
| [deleted]
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > My response is lengthy and detailed to prevent vague statements
| from turning into rumours and speculation.
|
| He's not kidding. This thing has a table of contents.
| meanmrmustard92 wrote:
| Marty came across as a slimy prick in the (otherwise excellent)
| Noclip documentary about the making of Doom (2016). Turns out the
| real-life version is much worse.
| gausswho wrote:
| I remember bouncing off DOOM Eternal after a couple hours
| because all its clever new mechanics were oddly anti-fun and
| puzzly resource management. Like the creators didn't know what
| made the predecessor special. I was confused and stopped
| playing a couple hours in.
|
| So I watched the Noclip hoping to understand the design choices
| better. Marty was disgustingly smug and assured about it all,
| coming across like a victim for being a misunderstood creative
| genius. Several times he implied the 2016 breakout hit he was
| following up on was dull and repetitive.
|
| That helped me understand where it all went wrong. I'm
| devastated but not surprised that Mick got treated this way.
| Props to him for choosing to get the word out instead of taking
| a payoff. I hope there are professional repercussions for
| Marty.
| pie_flavor wrote:
| I found it dull and repetitive, and loved Eternal. I have no
| idea whether I'm in the minority, but just because someone is
| a horrible person ethically doesn't mean that their taste in
| video games is horrible too.
| gausswho wrote:
| Fair, I can definitely see why players will enjoy one or
| the other more. They are quite different in what mechanics
| they tailor for. I was put off by the demeanor of the
| creative director in the documentary, who it turns out
| wasn't Marty at all but Hugo Martin.
| busterarm wrote:
| It's like you're in my head. I had this exact same experience
| as you did, word for word.
| fluoridation wrote:
| I bought the 2016 release at full price like within the first
| month of its release and decided to skip Eternal when I heard
| several reviews mention you had to ration ammo. Few things
| annoy me more than shooters that don't let you shoot as much
| as you want. Hell, every time I replay DOOM 2016 the first
| thing I upgrade is ammo all the way, and only then do I even
| consider upgrading health or armor.
| gausswho wrote:
| Yeah that game loop was what I loved too. It was brainless
| in the ways I enjoyed, made you feel like a Doom Guy. It
| was as hard as you wanted, in that vein of game. Eternal
| was a brave subversion that just didn't suit the origins of
| the franchise. Maybe they won some crossover fans, but I'm
| not convinced the trade was worth it.
| Geee wrote:
| I never played 2016, but ammo in Eternal is pretty much
| similar to any older Doom games, except that you also get
| ammo by using chainsaw on enemies. I think this made the
| game excellent, because it forces you to get close to
| enemies and use different types of attacks. There's lots of
| ammo if you know how to play it. The game always spawns
| these 'fodder' type enemies which can be used to get ammo,
| so you'll never run out.
| fluoridation wrote:
| I don't know, I didn't play Doom back in the day, but I
| did play other '90s shooters and as a general rule none
| of them were resource management games. The difficulty
| usually arises from multitasking, reflexes, and
| precision. They're designed so that if you use your
| entire arsenal situationally you'll never run dry unless
| you have _really_ poor aim. The resource you do have to
| manage, although indirectly, is your health, because in
| each level you can only recharge so much before death is
| inevitable. DUKE3D was an exception, where on most level
| it would let you recharge completely at the cost of
| standing in one place just holding down the use key
| continuously for one or two minutes.
| umvi wrote:
| Not surprising behavior from id software. If you've ever read the
| book "Masters of Doom" (great book, btw) you can see that id
| software from the very beginning is really only known for making
| cutting edge games and that they've always had problems with bad
| management and abusing employees.
| filoleg wrote:
| There is a difference between questionable management when your
| company consists of under 10 employees (aka ultra-startup mode)
| vs. when you are a large gamedev company under the umbrella of
| a massive publisher.
|
| A lot of things can be more understandable when you are a
| single-digit employee count company running on a shoestring
| budget (which iD Software was at the time), especially when no
| intentional malice was present. It is another thing when you
| are a large dev company that has a massive financial backing of
| a massive publisher, and you appear to be intentionally
| malicious towards a single contributor who did nothing wrong
| and was instrumental to your success.
| leach wrote:
| Damn I won't give ID any more money. What pieces of shit.
| Complete incompetence by marty
| agentwiggles wrote:
| This is really disappointing to read. Mick's soundtrack was a
| huge part of making DOOM 2016 and Eternal such great experiences.
|
| His talk at GDC where he goes into some of the process of
| creating the soundtrack is fantastic, so much fun to see the
| creativity he brought to the game's music.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4FNBMZsqrY
|
| The next DOOM will be a little less DOOMy without him.
| musha68k wrote:
| The soundtrack for Eternal was the only thing that felt special
| about this sequel IMO. Doom 2016 was and is amazing though,
| instant classic including the congenial soundtrack.
|
| I'm even less excited about any further sequel now.
|
| Too bad John Carmack didn't want to put up more with the
| business side of things. Zenimax are slowly becoming the worst
| of all the gravedigger big gaming companies.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Zenimax became a part of Microsoft soon after Doom Eternal.
| Don't know if the management changes after that help or not.
| musha68k wrote:
| Wow, we do live in a strange reality at this point. Masters
| of Doom clearly a distant past.
| filoleg wrote:
| I am glad you mentioned Masters of Doom. I've read it on
| the bus commute during my internship at Microsoft back in
| college ~6-7 years ago, and I cannot recommend this book
| enough.
|
| I didn't want to work in gamedev at the time (due to
| being fairly familiar with how awful working in that
| industry was), and I still don't. Neither do I have a
| strong emotional attachment to the original DOOM, I was
| way too young to appreciate it back when it was released,
| and I didn't live in a country where it was a cultural
| hit. I still have no interest or fascination with working
| in gamedev industry now.
|
| However, that book was something else, and it rocked my
| world. It is about as strong of a book rec as I can give.
| Both Carmack and Romero created something very special
| there, and it is fascinating as hell to read it.
| Especially since Carmack and his current endeavors are
| still very relevant to the world of today.
|
| P.S. The last sentence wasn't meant to be a dig at Romero
| at all. I just don't see him being mentioned in the news
| much anymore, especially compared to Carmack, and I
| honestly have no idea what he is up to. But that doesn't
| diminish his contribution to the story of DOOM and beyond
| at all.
| agentwiggles wrote:
| I liked Eternal, I know that a lot of people felt the new
| mechanics were too much of a departure from 2016, and I'm
| sympathetic to that, but I had a hell of fun time beating the
| game on Nightmare.
|
| It turns it into something like Hotline Miami, where there's
| a room full of guys who can kill you almost immediately, so
| you wind up playing the encounter over and over until you
| have the perfect path of devastation through the enemies.
|
| The main thing I disliked about Eternal was the added story
| elements, the very minimal story in 2016 was so perfect (it's
| basically: you wake up, you're badass, you hate demons, go
| rip and tear). Eternal tried to go for some sort of
| Doomslayer lore - spelling it out makes it lame.
|
| Overall, both games are great, and I very much enjoyed them.
| barbariangrunge wrote:
| They added too many mechanical things to fiddle with and it
| drowned out the positional combat aspect. It felt like
| playing starcraft in the mid to late game
| agentwiggles wrote:
| It definitely gets more mechanically heavy in the late
| game, in a way that kinda diminishes the pure combatness
| of the whole thing. At first it feels sorta like "you've
| given me a small set of murder tools, and I need to use
| them to build a glorious rampage", and towards the end
| you have so many options that it feels less artful. I
| still had fun but I definitely understand the thrust of
| the criticism - especially given how perfectly DOOM 2016
| lets you compose a symphony of destruction with just the
| guns you have.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| > It turns it into something like Hotline Miami, where
| there's a room full of guys who can kill you almost
| immediately, so you wind up playing the encounter over and
| over until you have the perfect path of devastation through
| the enemies.
|
| I call it Mario-ization, and I hate it.
|
| I also hated Eternal. It wasn't Doom. It was a "first-
| person jumper."
|
| Based on the previous game, I pre-ordered the deluxe
| whatever version, and then couldn't stand the game, even on
| the easiest setting. This was the game that finally ended
| pre-ordering for me.
|
| As always, TACMA and YMMV, etc., et. al. I wish I could
| enjoy these kinds of games, since a lot of effort is
| devoted to them these days.
| castlecrasher2 wrote:
| >Based on the previous game, I pre-ordered the deluxe
| whatever version, and then couldn't stand the game, even
| on the easiest setting. This was the game that finally
| ended pre-ordering for me.
|
| Same here. 2016 was perfection in so many ways that
| Eternal is just...bizarre by comparison. Nearly every
| aspect of Eternal was just plain mediocre or bad to me.
| remarkEon wrote:
| After finishing Gordon's essay, the jagged and at times
| uneven feel of DOOM Eternal seems to make a lot more
| sense now. This circular creative process (give me the
| music so we can design the level ... no, you give _me_
| the level design so I can write the music) seems to
| explain what felt so wrong about DOOM Eternal, this
| "fantasy platform puzzle" idea that Id was driving
| toward.
|
| I feel the same way about pre-ordering AAA games, but
| FWIW I think pre-ordering is really context dependent.
| Pre-ordering the next DOOM? Hell no. Pre-ordering KSP2 or
| something like that? Yeah probably.
| shkkmo wrote:
| Really? KSP2 is not being made by Squad. Squad got bought
| by Take-Two and Take-Two is having a different studio
| build the game... or was until they cancelled the
| contract and poached most that studio's talent. This is a
| project that seems like it has a high likelihood of
| failing to capture what made the original one great. I'd
| wait to see some demos and lets-plays before putting your
| money down
| remarkEon wrote:
| Whoa ... perhaps I've been living in a cave, but I was
| not aware of all of this. When did this happen?
| shkkmo wrote:
| Take-Two bought Squad in 2017. Here's a couple of article
| that cover some of the key events.
|
| https://screenrant.com/kerbal-space-
| program-2-delay-2022-sta...
|
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/kerbal
| -sp...
|
| https://www.eurogamer.net/after-more-than-a-decade-
| developme...
|
| It looks like Squad did get re-involved in KSP2 once they
| closed out development of KSP with v1.12
|
| I'm not saying people shouldn't check out KSP2 and I have
| high hopes it will be a worthy sequel. It just isn't the
| sequel I would call out as a specific example of a safe
| one to pre-order.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| Totally agree. I didn't like Eternal at first, but then
| suddenly the combat loop just _clicked_ and I couldn 't get
| enough.
| ilaksh wrote:
| We've had enough DOOMs. Let him work on something new.
| test1235 wrote:
| For the longest time, that GDC video was the most watched on
| their channel. Even now, it still appears to be a close second.
|
| I've watched it through twice myself, despite not even working
| in the game or music industry.
| runevault wrote:
| His sheer enthusiasm in this video is incredible. Also the glee
| when he adds 666 to the music lol (or maybe it was a pentagram,
| or both? Been a while since I watched).
| agentwiggles wrote:
| The spectrogram stuff you're referencing was one of my
| favorite parts, and also the description of his crazy array
| of pedals he used to get the signature sound.
| filoleg wrote:
| Gordon's YouTube channel is amazing. His videos about
| creating the sound of DOOM (2016) are stuck in my head very
| strongly. The guy clearly is extremely passionate about his
| work, and he loves going into the nitty gritty of the
| process.
|
| His very short video about the old soviet hardware synth he
| managed to find and pretty much had to reverse-engineer to
| make use of was very memorable[0].
|
| 0. https://youtu.be/oKzYf1JW7kE
| D13Fd wrote:
| This is so sad. I was unfamiliar with this whole dispute, but
| I've been a huge fan of the Doom 2016 soundtrack ever since that
| game was released. The music was absolutely essential to the game
| and it's amazing to me that they apparently didn't realize that
| and didn't treat the author as essential to the game development
| process.
|
| I'm also worried that he apparently hasn't sued or settled yet.
| At least based on his story, it looks like he may have some
| amazing claims here, and any plaintiff-focused contract/IP firm
| worth its salt would be beating down his door to get this case.
| But some of his claims are likely state law claims that are
| subject to a statute of limitations that has either run at this
| point or is about to run, and settlement negotiations generally
| don't toll the statute of limitations. Get on it!
| nurettin wrote:
| Thank you Mick Gordon for all your hard work!
|
| Mick is such a legend. I'm sorry this happened to him.
|
| I wish we got to hear the original original sound track, not some
| last minute Chad edit. I wouldn't be surprised if he deleted it
| all.
| sasas wrote:
| It's all "who said what" until Mick shows screenshots of
| timestamps embedded in the audio files - direct proof that Marty
| outright lied. This could be important if there is any litigation
| made against Mick for this post if they attempt to destroy him
| financially by going to court.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > This could be important if there is any litigation made
| against Mick for this post if they attempt to destroy him
| financially by going to court.
|
| The problem is, every lawsuit - even if the facts are on your
| side - still has a chance of going belly-up at least partially
| and making you responsible for even a part of the opposing
| party's lawyer costs as judges have quite a bit of leeway in
| many jurisdictions on distributing cost between parties. Big
| companies routinely abuse this threat scenario because they
| know 99% of people can't afford paying big lawyer companies
| that earn five digits an hour.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal is that it kicks all
| forms of ass.
| runevault wrote:
| That open letter from Marty always felt fishy to me, because
| everything I ever saw about Mick made him feel like someone who
| is simply enthusiastic about music and all the stuff he claimed
| smelled wrong. I ended up writing it off as "Maybe he's just
| better at a public persona than I figured," and was sad but moved
| on. But now? Oof I wonder what Bethesda/Zenimax/MS does about
| this, because the look is NOT good for Marty, and Mick seems to
| have the receipts to back it up.
| Comevius wrote:
| I knew Marty's open letter was bullshit back then when I first
| read it since the game was originally set to release in 2019,
| and here he was talking about not having Mick under contract
| for the OST in January 2020. It was also suspicious that he
| said that they didn't have the source material for the game
| music after that contract has ended. That would be such a
| tremendous oversight, the studio not owning all the material
| for their game.
|
| It all makes sense after reading Mick's statement. Chad was
| tasked with the OST for the original release date back in
| August 2019, and he was supposed to use the game music,
| including the parts that ended up being rejected for the game.
| This is why Mick was ignored for months when asking about the
| OST. They only went back to him in March 2020 when it was
| apparent that the studio is not up to the task.
| Scaevolus wrote:
| Conjecture: Marty will sue him for defamation and lose when
| discovery proves that substantially every allegation Mick made
| was true.
|
| This was Mick's entire life for two years, but was just another
| contractor Marty was (badly) juggling. One of them will have a
| far clearer memory of what's going on.
| runevault wrote:
| I would agree with that. I said the look wasn't good because
| I can't know everything but Mick seems to have enough
| receipts finding a detail that makes Marty look less bad will
| be challenging at best.
|
| My guess would be Marty made promises to upper management and
| things fell apart due to mismanagement. If this was JUST Mick
| and Marty interacting without some level of outside force I
| doubt Marty would act this stupidly.
| fleddr wrote:
| This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding
| and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting
| screwed over 30 times in a row he still was hopeful for a
| reasonable ending. I express that as a compliment, even if in the
| real world it works against you.
|
| It's not the main topic, but I like to call out attention to
| this:
|
| "incidences of online abuse escalated at an alarming rate as
| Marty's Reddit post led to frustration over my alleged
| professional failure, and toxic gamers grew openly aggressive.
|
| They shared my personal details via message boards, including
| Reddit, which meant that abusers could now reach me in more ways
| than ever. They email-bombed my inboxes, crashing the server and
| clogging my messaging services, crippling my ability to
| communicate. They harassed my other clients with attempts to get
| me fired from their projects. They called my phone numbers around
| the clock, screaming messages full of abuse.
|
| I began receiving specific expressions of violence, the content
| so vivid it made me sick. The torrent of abuse telling me how to
| kill myself, how I'd be mutilated, how they would circulate
| photos of my body to traumatise my family, how my family would be
| murdered, how they'd hurt my animals, how they'd shoot up any
| event I attended, how I'd be raped to death, really started to
| wear me down in ways I couldn't previously imagine."
|
| I'm strongly against authoritarian overreach and used to consider
| trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no
| longer believe that. We're talking about a disappointing audio
| track for a stupid game yet the man and his family have to fear
| for their lives. And surely Mr Manager Marty looks at it with
| approval.
|
| A line has to be drawn in the sand. There must be a cost to such
| threats. A massive fine or some short prison time. Further, those
| enabling and launching the mob, even if unknowingly, need to
| carry responsibility too. This isn't just defamation, it spills
| over into real world danger.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| > used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring
| intervention. I no longer believe that. ... the man and his
| family have to fear for their lives.
|
| I'm wondering how you could be on the internet in a post-
| gamergate world and still be surprised that shit like this
| really does happen. It's incredibly common - why do you think
| those calls for stricter moderation started in the first place?
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Yeah, but this is even lower; it's literally just music! Even
| GG, as pathetic as it was, could be explained through a
| culture war angle.
|
| Also, I'd disagree with stricter moderation helping, and
| actually, we saw the opposite here. He got moderated out of
| the audience, with no recourse a part from screaming into the
| void (until he wrote this). Without this massive
| documentation effort, he otherwise would've been totally
| recourseless.
|
| If anything, this highlights how problematic moderation can
| be especially on reddit.
|
| (I'm not arguing that moderation is bad in general, just that
| this story actually shows that there has to be a balance. A
| way to watch the watchmen I guess)
| tibbon wrote:
| I also really wonder WTF is wrong with people. Even children
| should know to not harass someone for any reason, let alone
| that _perhaps_ that person had conflict while working on a game
| they enjoy.
|
| I cannot imagine ever going after someone like that, under any
| circumstance.
| rjbwork wrote:
| I think it's the same phenomenon that causes road rage.
| Collective pseudo-anonymity (and on the internet, literally
| pseudonymity) causes people to act in bizarre ways. The other
| people who are interacting with them via that mediated
| interface (internet, cars on road, phone, etc.) are at some
| level dehumanized.
|
| Very few people would do the kinds of things they do behind
| the screen or wheel of a car when sitting face to face with
| someone IRL.
| fleddr wrote:
| True, empathy is a function of distance.
| fleddr wrote:
| You know what the most disturbing thing is? "Normal" people
| do this.
|
| We're picturing villains, hateful characters, people with
| severe mental shortcomings. Deeply traumatized personalities
| looking for some retaliation.
|
| Nope. It's your neighbor. That kind middle-aged guy walking
| his dog. The one that is considerate and intelligent enough
| to know better.
|
| Several years back a dutch TV show proved this point. They
| did detective work to track down people making online death
| threats and confronted them at their door. Every single
| episode ended in the same anti-climax: completely "normal"
| people.
|
| When pressed for an answer as to why they launched these
| threats...none could give a meaningful answer. They didn't
| even actually care about the matter at all.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Some people when given anonymity have no bounds on their
| behaviors.
|
| That's why many systems and programs fail, because we can
| only imagine how bad we are, and not how insanely awful the
| worst of us can act.
| valdiorn wrote:
| > We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid
| game
|
| Uh, the Doom eternal soundtrack is widely regarded as one of
| the absolute best game soundtracks ever created.
|
| I've not actually read this whole thing (am about to), neither
| was I aware of this whole mess, but I'm a massive fan of Mick
| and the Doom soundtracks. They have hundreds of millions of
| streams on YouTube in total.
| fleddr wrote:
| Well, once you finish reading, you'll understand that the
| outcome of this project was in fact disappointing. Which was
| the entire reason for the hate campaign.
| sentientslug wrote:
| What you are quoting was written by the composer of the
| soundtrack (Mick Gordon)
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > I'm strongly against authoritarian overreach and used to
| consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring
| intervention. I no longer believe that. We're talking about a
| disappointing audio track for a stupid game yet the man and his
| family have to fear for their lives.
|
| This is hardly the first incident like this and not even close
| to the worst. Remember when Reddit decided they knew who the
| Boston Marathon bomber was, and got his friends and family
| harassed so bad that the FBI had to go on TV and give away
| sensitive case information just so they'd see how wrong they
| were and knock it off?
|
| Or maybe how Near was harassed for being a harmless non-binary
| furry until they committed suicide?
|
| Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Mick's been through some shit, but
| if it took you this long to realize that maybe the "trolls" of
| today aren't the cuddly affectionate clowns of the previous
| millennium then you _really_ weren 't paying attention.
| fleddr wrote:
| Well, AnIdiotOnTheNet, perhaps you could be more of a role
| model yourself by not making baseless assumptions.
|
| I've been on the web since 1996 and am well aware of what
| people can do. Depravity I couldn't even imagine exists. So
| no, I didn't just learn that people do really bad stuff.
|
| The reason I used the term "a fact of life" is because
| addressing this issue can come at an enormous cost to
| society. Nobody would want anonymity to be illegal or to have
| every word expressed monitored by some institute. That's the
| reason for my hesitation, not because I didn't know about
| several earlier examples of this type of harassment.
|
| I find this specific example of a hate campaign very useful
| for it is pure. You can't say it was an accident (we had the
| wrong guy) nor is it clouded by politics: it's fine if it
| happens to my political opponents or it was in retaliation to
| them doing the same thing to our side. There's no provocation
| of any kind either.
|
| The above bullshit excuses are often used to be relatively
| lax about this phenomenon. To look away, and to see them as
| rare incidents.
|
| Whilst there's never an excuse, this one doesn't even have a
| bullshit excuse either. For me that's a tipping point in
| believing that legislation is needed.
| Arjuna wrote:
| _"The same thoughtless disregard for basic music fundamentals
| that plagued the preliminary edits ended up on the final OST."_
|
| As a musician and music-lover, seeing how they _brickwalled_
| [1][2] Mick's tracks in the screenshots only serves to add to the
| heartbreak of his entire saga.
|
| [1] Loudness War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
|
| [2] The Loudness War https://youtu.be/3Gmex_4hreQ
| mrob wrote:
| It seems the brickwall mastering was intentionally done by Mick
| Gordon. See the section starting at "id Software approved my
| mastering". The alleged "disregard for basic music
| fundamentals" appears to have introduced _more_ dynamic range,
| although not in a way that 's pleasant to listen to.
| Arjuna wrote:
| FTA:
|
| _"His edits are riddled with these clearly visible mistakes.
| Anyone comparing my original tracks to his edits can hear
| (and see, by looking at the waveform [1]) the unmistakable
| errors introduced during the editing process."_
|
| [1]
| https://twitter.com/DoominalCross/status/1251690243389927424
| mrob wrote:
| This is comparing Doom 2016 with Doom Eternal. It shows
| strange production in Doom Eternal that is very probably an
| error (overlapping without crossfade), but it provides no
| additional information as to why the Doom Eternal OST has
| low dynamic range.
| ndepoel wrote:
| Lowering the volume does not equal introducing more dynamic
| range. It was just done to avoid clipping when pasting two
| bits of track on top of each other.
|
| The masters delivered by Mick Gordon were meant for use in
| the game. I'm not an expert at game audio engineering, but
| the brickwall mastering may have been intentional to make the
| music stand out over the rest of the game audio. Either way
| those masters were approved by id Software for use _in the
| game_ so nothing was wrong with those.
|
| The problem is that those exact same masters were then used
| to produce the OST. To do a proper OST, you would have to go
| back to the source materials, remix them and produce a new
| master that is suitable for playback as an album. One that
| isn't as brickwalled and maintains more dynamic range. This
| is the important part that was skipped by Chad Mossholder and
| not caught by id Software's internal QA. If you take an
| already mastered piece of music meant for a different context
| and just cut it up and splice it back together, without
| regard for volume leveling, tempo adjustment or proper
| balancing, then you're inevitably going to produce garbage.
| mrob wrote:
| >Lowering the volume does not equal introducing more
| dynamic range. It was just done to avoid clipping when
| pasting two bits of track on top of each other.
|
| If you overlap two tracks, and reduce volume to avoiding
| clipping, the combined track has spikes in volume where
| they overlap. This is increased dynamic range. But like I
| said, it is not musically pleasant to listen to, and it's
| certainly reasonable to complain about it.
| jonorsi wrote:
| That wouldn't increase the dynamic range, it's just
| preventing the overlaps from clipping. Both tracks would
| still have the same dynamic range, the relative overall
| volume might be different for the track you
| lowered/increased to match the other one, but I doubt the
| transition between the two would be considered increasing
| the dynamic range.
|
| In order to increase the dynamic range of a mastered
| track you would have to uncompress/master it in the first
| place. If you are just decreasing/increasing the overall
| volume, you would have the same dynamic range just at a
| quieter or louder listening level.
| filoleg wrote:
| > It seems the brickwall mastering was intentionally done by
| Mick Gordon
|
| Where are you getting this? His in-game music was perfectly
| fine, and the only instances of brickwall mastering were
| present within the "official OST" (that was mixed by Chad,
| splicing together the in-game music poorly). Which Gordon had
| no hand in whatsoever, outside of providing the source
| material, i.e., the in-game music.
| mrob wrote:
| The edits described in the article have no mention of
| additional dynamic range compression. The music in the OST
| is described as "normalized" to 0dBFS, which means simply
| adjusting the gain. This suggests that the dynamic range
| was already compressed (which is not unreasonable for game
| audio, because it will make the sound effects easier to
| hear).
| filoleg wrote:
| The edit described in Gordon's post talks about
| overlaying tracks with zero crossfading done and
| instruments clashing, all being done hastily by hand.
| That alone is a massive contributor to the dynamic range
| brickwall.
|
| Gordon explicitly singled out those instances. He didnt
| say "the track as a whole has a DR brickwall through and
| through." He mentioned a complete lack of crossfading
| being the massive contributor to the brickwall and weird
| tempo changes, and it all checks out.
| mrob wrote:
| Overlapping without crossfading is strange and very
| likely wrong, but it cannot contribute to brickwalling
| unless further dynamic range processing is applied, or
| unless it causes clipping, which is avoided by the
| described normalization. No further dynamic range
| processing is described in the article, and no evidence
| of such processing is visible in the screenshots.
| ilaksh wrote:
| Anyone else have experience with Id Software Studio Director
| Marty Stratton? We don't want to ruin his reputation
| unnecessarily either. But if he really did commit defamation to
| this degree, it should not be a footnote.
| FeistySkink wrote:
| The only gut feeling I have is that other people might have
| took the gag money plus the heavy-handed NDA or don't have the
| clout of Mr. Gordon to publicly speak out. But other than that,
| you're right. I hope more people come out and share their
| stories wrt id.
| bentt wrote:
| this is heartbreaking
|
| a sad lesson in contracts and work. don't get upside down, ever.
| save the good faith for church.
|
| really sorry, Mick
| thefz wrote:
| In case we need another example to why Reddit moderation needs...
| moderation:
|
| _Attempting to remove the Reddit post myself_
|
| _I'd had enough. I grew tired of having the respect I afforded
| Marty, and his employer, with attempts to resolve the dispute
| privately, get turned into a giant waste of time, effort and
| money. The Reddit post had been up for 15 months and attempts to
| resolve the dispute with Marty had gotten me nowhere. With my
| patience stretched to the absolute limit, I decided to take steps
| to remove the Reddit post myself._
|
| _Reddit Moderator: I reached out to one of the r /DOOM
| moderators. We made contact and arranged a call via Discord._
|
| _The moderator introduced himself and spoke about his love for
| the DOOM franchise and its fanbase. Along with the r /DOOM
| subreddit, he told me he also moderated the official DOOM Discord
| server._
|
| _I told him how Marty's Reddit post had affected me deeply, both
| professionally and personally. It was a source of ongoing stress
| and harm, and I asked if he'd consider removing it._
|
| _Much to my relief, he instantly took it down._
|
| _But within 12 hours, the post was reinstated. The moderator
| blocked me on Discord and didn't reply to my emails._
|
| _A few days later, Marty's lawyers contacted me and said
| removing the Reddit post had greatly offended him. He was furious
| and made it clear in the strongest terms that an amicable
| resolution would be impossible._
|
| I just read some of the article and that's horrible behavior from
| ID.
|
| You have my support, Mick.
| int_19h wrote:
| FWIW that post now has a warning notice on it with a link to
| the Medium article.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Feel bad for him, the Reddit mod really needs to be taken to
| task for bending over to appease Marty.
| Pet_Ant wrote:
| If the mod was personally threatened with a lawsuit could you
| blame him? I think that is a very likely possibility...
| driverdan wrote:
| They could have told them to shove it. They had nothing to
| bring a lawsuit about.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| I would never face off with a giant corporation over
| reddit modding. The best case scenario is their threat
| being total bluster and nothing happens, and even there
| you have to deal with their loud demands making it purely
| a negative experience for you.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| If the Reddit TOS doesn't absolve mods from this sort of
| corporate abuse, they should work on that. They can't let
| outside pressures manipulate their site like that. Not,
| at least, if they're not getting paid. Then, of course,
| game on. But...
| zlsa wrote:
| I used to be an active moderator of a fairly popular
| community. At one point, we were requested by a US TLA[0]
| to remove a post that they believed contained information
| that should not have been made public. We complied,
| obviously.
|
| We then got numerous people complaining that we, a bunch
| of unpaid moderators, didn't try to fight back. I recall
| one person saying we were "too chicken" to stand up for
| ourselves against a major US government agency.
|
| If we had stood up for ourselves, the agency would have
| gone straight to reddit and filed a DMCA (as would be
| entirely within their right to do in that case), and
| reddit, inc. would instantly have removed the content (as
| hosting providers nearly always do, even if there's no
| grounds for a DMCA takedown[1].) Why are unpaid
| moderators held to a higher standard than the website
| itself?
|
| [0]: "three-letter agency"
|
| [1]: yes, this is wrong, but it's how it usually goes
| when false DMCAs are filed.
| newsclues wrote:
| You don't need to threaten a lawsuit, but losing access to
| inside info or early game access.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| They really don't. They're likely unpaid fans who thought
| they could help out deleting some spam and abuse. Suddenly
| they're forced to choose sides in a game of he said she said
| with corporate lawyers involved, and any choice they make
| will cause people to claim they should be taken to task for
| their bad decision.
| highwaylights wrote:
| If removing the post offended him, then yikes - I just sorted
| the posts on his original open letter by date descending and
| it's everything you'd expect and more.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Please remain civil, don't send hate mail and death threats
| (I've already gotten some myself). Last I checked this is a fan
| community where official people sometimes post, and none of the
| mod team were involved directly in the issue at hand (aside
| from the noted post removal)
|
| Holy hell even the Reddit mods now get death threats.
|
| That's what happens when abusive, toxic people aren't kicked
| out of online communities the first time they spread abuse
| around - they learn that their behavior has no consequences
| and, as a result, escalate.
|
| [1]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/yqjvzu/comment/ivppq8...
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48
| damagednoob wrote:
| Hah, now I know where he got it from:
| https://youtu.be/jVkLVRt6c1U?t=53s
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Yep!
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Music is literally half of why that game is amazing. They should
| have been sucking his dick to keep him around.
|
| Geez management sucks almost without exception. Almost.
| adamrezich wrote:
| it was always obvious that DOOM Eternal had a pretty troubled
| development, what with all the delays, the apparent focus on the
| novel multiplayer mode that nobody ended up really liking at all,
| the promised-after-release Dark Souls-style "invasions" system
| that never ended up materializing, and the general unfocused
| nature of the final product compared to its predecessor. but
| getting a peek behind the scenes here is really interesting
| because even though it's not the focus of this post, it does help
| paint a picture of a pretty rough dev cycle. it's really too bad
| because DOOM (2016) was an excellent complete package of a game,
| and Eternal felt pretty rough by comparison... I wonder what the
| franchise can do to make a comeback at this point. personally I'd
| be alright with letting the DOOM brand lie fallow for awhile once
| again before taking another crack at it.
|
| fantastic read, and I hope things go better for Mr. Gordon going
| forward.
| suremarc wrote:
| DOOM 2016 got by on its freshness and its tone. The combat
| mechanics in DOOM Eternal, while having some divisive elements,
| really pushed the envelope for the series and for FPS games in
| general. But that was thanks to Hugo Martin, not Marty
| Stratton.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| Agreed. I'm sad to see all the negative comments about
| Eternal here, because in my view it's one of the best gaming
| experiences of the last few years.
| adamrezich wrote:
| eh, I definitely saw what DOOM Eternal was going for in terms
| of gameplay, but I wasn't really a fan of how it turned out
| in the end. the previous game was definitely a bit barebones
| as far as innovative gameplay was concerned but that was OK--
| it was a solid shooter, and a somewhat surprisingly good DOOM
| game! some people didn't care for the "arena" combat but I
| loved it, each arena was evocative of a miniature Quake
| multiplayer encounter! and then when Arcade Mode was added
| after release, I spent hours perfecting my runs on a few
| levels. instead of just iterating on the previous game, DOOM
| Eternal tried a bit too hard to craft a unique "combat
| puzzle" design ethos, which was alright, but didn't quite
| click with me.
|
| one specific part that stuck out like a sore thumb to me--
| despite being ultimately a pretty minor thing--was that part
| where there's goop on the ground that prevents you from
| jumping. when I got to that part, I was like, oh neat, ok,
| here's a new gameplay element. now I'm gonna have to consider
| if there's goop on the ground in combat encounters or
| something going forward, cool. but no, instead, it was just
| used in that one sequence so you have to trudge through some
| goop and avoid a few stationary tentacle monsters, and then
| it never appears again. this stuck with me because it shows
| how far they've strayed from the classic DOOM design ethos,
| of giving level-builders tools to design interesting
| experiences. instead everything felt very setpiecey, very
| specifically-designed-for-this-encounter.
|
| the lore stuff too felt overwrought as well--I really enjoyed
| how DOOM (2016) felt in that regard, it felt like you just
| got plopped into (the cancelled) DOOM 4, but instead of
| becoming immersed and participatory in the story, Doomguy
| didn't give a shit about anything except, goddammit, these
| moron scientists in yet another alternate universe once again
| did experiments with Hell shit and whoops yet another demonic
| invasion has arrived as a result--well, you know what to do,
| time to kick some demon ass regardless, it's what you do
| best! it was a good twist on the Half-Life 2 worldbuilding
| formula, sort of leaning on the fourth wall without totally
| breaking it, recognizing that players _don 't_ want a Half-
| Life-style DOOM 3 again, but rather, they just want to shoot
| some damn demons.
|
| but then DOOM Eternal decided to play it straight and make
| all this overwrought lore and crap that I just could not for
| the life of me be arsed to care about at all. and they
| could've toned down the fanservice in the hub world to about
| 20% of what they shipped and it would've been nice without
| being over-the-top.
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