[HN Gopher] Crossrail gets cross
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Crossrail gets cross
Author : zeristor
Score : 84 points
Date : 2022-11-08 09:10 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (diamondgeezer.blogspot.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (diamondgeezer.blogspot.com)
| jimnotgym wrote:
| > 13 years of construction,
|
| I find it funny that the first underground railway in London was
| built in a little over 2 years....by hand.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway
| jahewson wrote:
| Things are easier when you get to destroy thousands of peoples
| homes and just dig a trench to put your tunnel in.
| jimnotgym wrote:
| I'm sure there were plenty of engineering challenges in
| building _the first_!
| bombcar wrote:
| But most of them could be solved buy "digger bigger hole!"
| stevage wrote:
| And don't have to worry about skyscrapers, optic fibre
| cables, etc etc.
| DrBazza wrote:
| Cut and cover though. Dig a cutting in a road. Put the top back
| on. Met line, District line, Circle line.
| smcl wrote:
| Good to see the project delivered. Northern Powerhouse rail next
| ...
| empedocles wrote:
| We can dream, but somehow I suspect that the "painful choices"
| Hunt warns of will fall more on the North.
| smcl wrote:
| Sadly I share your pessimism
| zeristor wrote:
| One would think that there would be diminishing returns to
| more infrastructure in London, that some investment in the
| Power House North would do wonders.
|
| A high speed rail linking up Liverpool to Hull sounds like
| a good idea, there are the Penniness to drill though, but
| it would hardly be the Gotthard base tunnel would it.
|
| Pennine base tunnel anyone?
|
| [update: this turns out to be a study for a road tunnel]
|
| https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/trans-
| pe...
| youngtaff wrote:
| HS2 does more than just improve transport around London,
| it improves transport in the regions it goes through be
| separating local and high speed rail
|
| Midlands Connect cover some of the gains they'll get in
| these docs
| https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/publications/hs2-released-
| cap...
|
| Those gains are part of the reason HS2 should go all the
| way to Scotland and why the Northern Powerhouse route
| from Hull to Liverpool should be built too
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Tory governments have negative interest in "levelling up"
| the North. There's a lot of rhetoric, but all the action
| has been destructive.
|
| Liverpool to Hull would be transformative, as would an
| improved service to London.
|
| But the Leeds leg of HS2 was (predictably) one of the
| first things to be cut, so I wouldn't expect either to
| happen any time soon.
| lmm wrote:
| > One would think that there would be diminishing returns
| to more infrastructure in London, that some investment in
| the Power House North would do wonders.
|
| Why would one think that? Everything we see suggests
| returns are compounding rather than diminishing.
| distcs wrote:
| I thought it was about health care and welfare.
| blitzar wrote:
| hence why it will hit the north harder.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Tories are absolutely _itching_ to cancel HS2 at the point
| just after all the money has been spent and disruption
| incurred, but before the benefits can be realized. It 's like
| the cancellation of the UK's space programme at the exact
| moment they were about to do their first (and in the end
| only) launch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow
| DrBazza wrote:
| Not really the 'tories' just some of them. The northern
| Tory MPs certainly want it. It is funded by long dated
| bonds. Not immediate taxation as it's a nationally
| significant capital project. So cancelling bits of it looks
| good on paper only but makes zero immediate impact.
|
| As a Return on investment, every pound spent in the south
| east on infrastructure returns 5 times or more in the local
| economy compared to the rest of the Uk, which is how these
| projects are prioritised.
|
| https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-phase-one-
| ful...
| switch007 wrote:
| Northern powerhouse is a lie. Any promises of serious infra
| investment in the north is a lie
| twic wrote:
| The Mash called it years ago:
| https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/northern-
| powerho...
| swores wrote:
| Generally I agree with you, but with recent political
| developments I'm wondering if Sunak might be forced into
| reversing some of that thinking in an attempt to win more
| votes in the North for when ever the next general election
| happens...
|
| Not that I'd be optimistic if I lived up north, but maybe a
| bit more hopeful that with previous Tory lies about wanting
| to level up any part of the country.
| switch007 wrote:
| I wish I had your optimism from a change of guard. I do
| live up north.
|
| The only thing he may be forced in to is lying about it.
| fredoralive wrote:
| Considering the not so great outlook for the Tories at the
| next election (although there's probably two years to go to
| the next election and a lot can happen etc etc), they might
| consider writing off the North to focus on a "blue wall" in
| the South to minimise losses, which might not bode well for
| Northern investment.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Would it theoretically be possible to have a single train go from
| e.g. Norwich to Bristol?
| Tsiklon wrote:
| Theoretically: Absolutely - If Norwich has the same type of
| electrification as the Great Western Main Line. The Class 345
| trains that run in the Elizabeth Line, have the signalling for
| the Great Western Main Line, Crossrail Core & Great Eastern
| Main Line.
|
| In practice, no - different train companies operate all 3 lines
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Currently the Elizabeth Line trains are slow and stop
| everywhere. Think of tube rather than train.
|
| From the West end of the line in Reading nobody takes the
| Elizabeth Line to go into London, for instance, it's much too
| slow compared to the direct fast GWR trains.
|
| This also means that the line probably cannot be shared with
| fast trains for direct routes from East to West, I think.
| misterpurple45 wrote:
| The train companies operate trains, not lines. For example;
| CrossCountry's service runs on track shared with other
| passenger companies and freight from Penzance up to Scotland.
| blibble wrote:
| great eastern from norwich, go round half the loop at
| stratford, join the north london line and exit onto the great
| western at acton
|
| freight trains will be doing that complicated bit every day
| lmm wrote:
| Back in the early 2000s there was an occasional service
| (Anglia Crosslink) that ran that way. Ipswich to Basingstoke
| was the longest route.
| Xophmeister wrote:
| Theoretically possible in the sense that the lines exist and
| are connected? I don't know for sure, and while it may be a
| very convoluted route, I wouldn't be surprised.
|
| EDIT: This map[1] suggests you could do Norwich -> Birmingham
| New Street -> Bristol Temple Meads. Without having to go
| through London, I suspect this is indeed possible without
| changing trains, even if no operator runs that route.
|
| [1]: https://www.thetrainline.com/cmsmedia/cms/9384/national-
| rail...
| twic wrote:
| You don't even need Crossrail for that:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Crosslink
| lmm wrote:
| It would, but it would be unwise. A commuter/metro service has
| quite different needs from a long-distance service (this is one
| of the lessons of Thameslink, which does work that way, with
| trains running from Brighton to Peterborough through central
| London, and attendant compromises). The Crossrail plan is to
| divert the commuter services through the tunnel and free up
| more space in the terminals (Liverpool Street and Paddington)
| for the fast long-distance trains.
| switch007 wrote:
| Perhaps, but if it means CrossCountry running the service you'd
| rather walk
| noodlesUK wrote:
| I never thought too much about crossrail before it opened unless
| there was some disruption that it caused. I've always supported
| mass transit projects but as I wasn't really the target audience
| it never caught my imagination. I've now tried the Elizabeth line
| and I'm so glad it was delivered. It's staggering how big and
| beautiful the stations are. I remember thinking that this is
| probably what it would be like to live in subterranean cities on
| mars.
|
| Bring on HS2 next!
| marcosscriven wrote:
| I'm excited there's now a reasonably priced way to get from
| central London to Heathrow, without advance booking. On may way
| out last week I had to do the change at Paddington. Really
| looking forward to going straight to Tottenham Court Road from
| T4 on one go!
| stevage wrote:
| The last time I did that, I rode a bike. It was ok.
| detritus wrote:
| Did it fit in the overhead luggage compartment after?
| bombcar wrote:
| They make folding bikes for just that:
| https://www.cyclist.co.uk/buying-guides/4528/best-
| folding-bi...
| lmm wrote:
| I've done that a few times with my Strida (admittedly
| checked rather than overhead compartment). You'd probably
| get away with bringing a Brompton as hand luggage,
| although it's technically slightly over the limit.
| londons_explore wrote:
| You know it isn't reasonably priced... It's still got a
| special airport surcharge of a whopping PS12.80 each way, and
| still costs more than an airport transfer at pretty much
| every other European capital city.
| Erwin wrote:
| Stockholm's Arlanda Express is 299 SEK (24.18 GBP) each way
| and around 40km away. For a 17 minute trip with the train!
| plugin-baby wrote:
| Piccadilly Line?
| frobozz wrote:
| There has been a reasonably priced way since 1977. It
| currently costs PS5.50
| pydry wrote:
| According to citymapper crossrail shaves off a whole 7
| minutes from my journey while costing PS7 more. I'll
| probably keep taking the piccadilly unless I'm like,
| desperate for aircon or really late or something.
| supernova87a wrote:
| It is a nice development, but I will air a gripe here that TfL
| seems to go to lengths to obscure the average traveler's
| understanding that you can take Elizabeth line to the airport
| and save $$.
|
| The departure boards [edit: at Paddington rail station (note,
| not the tube)] will not label Elizabeth line trains with
| "Heathrow Airport", the TfL journey planner will not offer it
| to you unless you actively turn off National Rail options (i.e.
| Heathrow Express), etc.
|
| This goes all the way back to when it was Heathrow Connect
| (does anyone remember that? Memories from my grad school days
| when it was approx. PS6), and the fact that it was a continuing
| service to Heathrow always labeled as a small footnote near the
| bottom.
|
| I somewhat wonder if they do this out of agreement with
| Heathrow Express, or more charitably interpreted as not
| confusing people. Either way it costs people who don't know
| otherwise.
| fredoralive wrote:
| It's possibly at least partly a case of journey planners
| assuming you want the fastest possible option, and not taking
| into account the premium Heathrow Express charges?
|
| I'm not sure why TfL would want to actively push Heathrow
| Express over their own options, as they don't have anything
| to gain, as it's run by the airport and GWR / First Group,
| not themselves.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Here's one example of the departure board at Paddington
| clearly showing Heathrow Airport for a Heathrow Connect
| train.
|
| https://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-photography-
| de...
|
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/_mia/2437542452
|
| I found it clearly enough at Paddington in the spring, though
| the signs at Heathrow for the cheap option were terrible.
| antihero wrote:
| The boards literally say Heathrow T#, I'm not sure what
| you're talking about.
| supernova87a wrote:
| Apologies, my comments are from the time when the Elizabeth
| line was at the rail station at Paddington. And probably
| still hold for the few departures that do go from there.
| I'm not referring to the departure boards on the proper
| Elizabeth line now -- those of course show the destination.
|
| My comment about the TfL journey planner is still the case
| though.
| iamben wrote:
| The platform size / train length is a bit mind blowing. Coming
| in to Liverpool Street from the east - if you're at the back of
| the train you're in position to get off at Liverpool St. If
| you're at the front you're getting off at Moorgate! Crazy!
| bombcar wrote:
| https://goo.gl/maps/E5jn2AcJtj85S8gp8 for those not from the
| area, looks like about 1000 feet or more between them.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| If only the US would make major investments in regional rail like
| this, instead of either doing nothing or harrumphing that
| commuter rail should be run the way it has been run for the past
| 100 years.
| asdff wrote:
| Infrastructure in the U.S. is broken in terms of how it is
| supposed to be delivered these days. The unfortunate side
| effect of the freeway revolts of the 1960s putting a nail in
| grade separated vehicular right of ways in urban areas is that
| these same legal arguments and protections are now leveled
| against grade separated transit ways in urban areas by moneyed
| groups that argue in bad faith. Transit agencies now spend time
| planning and developing alternative options that are
| suboptimal, knowing full well 5/6 of these will be wasted
| efforts and only one will be chosen, just to give these
| busybodies some semblance of control of large scale engineering
| projects they aren't qualified to understand.
|
| You should read up all of the drama surrounding the purple line
| and the eventual sepulveda transit line in la. The issue:
| subway tunnel boring under a rich neighborhood. Fireworks ensue
| along with broken understandings of physics and geology but in
| the end, people used nonscientific arguments to delay the
| purple line extension in LA for 20 years (1), and are trying to
| use these arguments to kill a subway line (2) that would bore
| under a mountain and in no way shape or form affect the
| complaining rich Bel Air community above it. Somehow you don't
| hear a peep from the people in the hollywood hills living above
| the redline subway tunnel, nor see any affect on their property
| values from having a train move several hundred feet below the
| parcel offered for sale. Everything takes more money and a lot
| more time than it should to do anything at all, compared in
| years previous when people would generally see infrastructure
| and progress as a good thing.
|
| 1. https://www.lamag.com/driver/beverly-hills-finally-loses-
| cra... 2. https://www.curbed.com/2022/02/bel-air-subway-tunnel-
| los-ang...
| jsmith99 wrote:
| Crossrail involved tunneling under some of the most expensive
| property in the world, while passing within inches of
| existing underground tunnels. There are several fascinating
| documentaries.
| cheesetoastie wrote:
| Do you remember where to find those documentaries?
| 86____ wrote:
| Sadly it's no longer on iPlayer in the UK but if you use
| a bit of search wizardry I'm sure you could find it. The
| 15 Billon Pound Railway
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04b7h1w
| bluGill wrote:
| This is only part of the problem, though it is a factor. See
| https://transitcosts.com/overview/ (which won't be online for
| a few more weeks - I was able to read a couple pages a few
| weeks ago before they took it offline, and it looks very
| detailed)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I imagine that could only happen in a few areas of the East
| Coast, and maybe one on the West Coast. There aren't many
| regions of the US with density comparable to the UK (FWIW, UK
| is smaller than Oregon and has 16x the number of people).
| melling wrote:
| Aren't there a couple dozen countries in the world with high
| speed rail? How do we compare to Spain?
|
| Let me save you some time Because we've been over this 1000
| times... There are plenty of places in the United States with
| similar population densities as Spain, for example
| IIAOPSW wrote:
| In my collection of things I have a NYC Subway Map* from 2017.
| This one is special because it was commemorating the "opening
| of the second avenue subway". At the bottom corner in big fat
| font is the signature of then Governor Andrew Cuomo. For those
| unaware, the second avenue subway has been planned since the
| 1930s. In 2017 they opened phase 1, which consisted of 3 new
| stations stretching from 63rd St to 96th St. Maybe sometime
| this century phase 2 and 3 will open. I for one am not
| optimistic.
|
| Its not for lack of investment that this project has been
| delayed over 100 years. Plenty of money has gone down that pit.
| There is a cost disease afflicting infrastructure in the US
| (and health care, and education).
|
| *technically what I have is a transit diagram, not a map. The
| difference being it abstracts away the geography and
| angularizes all the lines.
| bombcar wrote:
| When the US _needs_ to build infrastructure, they can build
| it incredibly fast. The replacement I-35 bridge [34] and the
| fix to the Oroville Dam Spillway [6] are examples.
|
| Usually it gets tied up in years or decades of various fights
| like the St Croix Crossing which required federal action:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Croix_Crossing
|
| [34] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Saint_Anthony_Falls_
| Brid...
|
| [6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekUROM87vTA
| bobthepanda wrote:
| To clarify, when I say "investments", I mean the number of
| distinct improvements, not $ spent.
|
| I'm a big transit nerd and it's very disappointing. As what
| should be table stakes, there is no realistic plan to get to
| 100% accessibility in NYC.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| Entertaining writing!
| iggldiggl wrote:
| Personally, I'd say the whole blog is a goldmine of
| entertaining writing.
|
| Plus it's also yielded some good suggestions on some places to
| visit in (or occasionally even outside of) London.
| vesinisa wrote:
| If you are into video-form content, you might also enjoy Jago
| Hazzard's YouTube channel. Here's a random pick - a video
| about why the Mithcham Tram Stop might have a valid claim to
| being the oldest railway station in London:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKJqY4e5xrk
|
| (You might first want to view this video as background for
| context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnNIzCUg9G4)
| distcs wrote:
| What about the writing is entertaining? Not trying to be
| dismissive. I found the writing style authentic, factual, a
| very reporter-style writing. I did not find anything
| particularly entertaining. What am I missing?
| bombcar wrote:
| Entraining doesn't necessarily mean funny, it just means that
| it was enjoyable to read and not a necessity to read, I
| guess.
|
| (I'm going to leave the iPhone suggested spellcheck).
| toyg wrote:
| Bits like "You may still have been in bed at this point, and
| it's perfectly possible you were having the better time."
| distcs wrote:
| Ah! Thanks. I missed taking that sentence completely in.
| Need to read it again.
| eesmith wrote:
| I smiled at "People Who Like Trains were very much in
| evidence" given that I watched Geoff Marshall's video
| "Through Running Starts on the Elizabeth Line" at
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJQQ7YQ3gw on the new
| changes.
|
| Marshall is very much a Person Who Likes Trains, and in
| the video he talks with others of that ilk.
| utexaspunk wrote:
| IDK, all the NBs are a bit distracting
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| And "Excitable folk continued to walk up and down the
| train, including one in full purple fleece and joggers with
| an Elizabeth line bag round his neck. I can't see his look
| catching on." Lovely dry British understatement.
| rtanks wrote:
| I think it's great!
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| It really is a very well-implemented project. I also went for a
| ride on the first train through the tunnels on Sunday, and the
| impact it's going to have on a lot of journeys across London was
| pretty clear.
|
| It's not _absolutely_ perfect. The absence of step-free boarding
| at the stations shared with National Rail infrastructure is
| unfortunate, and some of the interchanges with other lines
| involve annoyingly long paths. But these are compromises and I
| really hope some of them can be rectified in the future. But the
| design of the stations, the lighting, the trains... just all
| absolutely first-rate.
| nsteel wrote:
| As someone who lives west, the wait coming into Paddington is
| really annoying. It's definitely worse so far, compared to
| previously when you zoomed straight in and then changed.
| Hopefully they make things line up a bit better. My station only
| gets 4 trains an hour so there's still going to be lots of
| waiting around at Paddington on the way home also. It is great in
| the central section though, a really nice job on the platforms
| etc. And actually the upgrade to step free stations on the
| western section is good. Although their idea of "step free" is
| questionable, the gap is huge!!
| fredoralive wrote:
| The delays are until May AFAIK, the main National Rail
| timetables only have major changes a couple of times a year,
| but they want the through connection to Crossrail open ASAP, so
| have an inelegant kludge of trains waiting outside Paddington
| to sync up the Crossrail core and NR timetables until then.
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