[HN Gopher] Modernizing my 1980s sound system
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Modernizing my 1980s sound system
        
       Author : woodruffw
       Score  : 86 points
       Date   : 2022-11-07 15:09 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.yossarian.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.yossarian.net)
        
       | daggersandscars wrote:
       | Depending on how you feel about using outdated network hardware,
       | an Apple AirPort Express functions as an AirPlay receiver, DAC,
       | and USB to network printer adapter. Have it join your existing
       | network or, depending on the version, connect it via ethernet.
       | 
       | The 1/8" stereo audio out has a fiber optic digital out in it if
       | you want to BYO DAC.
       | 
       | Using the network printer requires Bonjour for Windows. It
       | generally works out of the box on most Linux distros.
        
         | JohnBooty wrote:
         | Apple AirPort Express
         | 
         | I agree with you. It's absolutely the biggest bargain secret in
         | the audio world. Glorious dirt cheap dead simple lossless
         | 44.1/16 bit perfect streaming. Install one in every room for
         | the world's easiest multiroom audio solution.
         | 
         | They're available dirt cheap and in plentiful supply on eBay.
         | 
         | The only drawback is a lot of apps don't work with Airplay
         | directly on Windows, need a third-party sound driver app or
         | whatever (it's been ages since I looked)
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | I didn't know AirPort Expresses could do that! That would
         | definitely have been an option, if I owned one :-)
        
           | JohnBooty wrote:
           | They are dirt cheap on eBay if you ever get the itch. No
           | DLNA, though, which your current solution supports. So many
           | guests would be left in the cold.
           | 
           | But an Airport Express plus an RPi serving as a simple DLNA-
           | to-Airplay bridge might be a way to go
           | 
           | (Thank you for the great article, by the way!)
        
         | ezconnect wrote:
         | Is there a minimum model that we need or even the first version
         | is ok?
        
           | daggersandscars wrote:
           | I'm not sure an 802.11g one will work -- I'm not sure it uses
           | AirPlay to receive network audio.
           | 
           | I'm not sure the first gen 802.11n will work either -- I have
           | a second gen one and no longer have the older ones. Sorry.
        
         | buescher wrote:
         | That's exactly how I would "modernize" the system. Maybe add a
         | modern DSP equalizer for room correction, too - his receiver
         | has two monitor loops.
        
           | JohnBooty wrote:
           | Maybe add a modern DSP equalizer for room correction,
           | too - his receiver has two monitor loops.
           | 
           | Oooh, that's nice. I hate that most modern systems don't
           | include these.
           | 
           | DSP correction to compensate for speaker+room issues is just
           | stunning when done well. Turns many cheap speakers into
           | legitimate hifi.
        
         | SECProto wrote:
         | It functions as an Airplay receiver, does it also function as
         | DLNA receiver? A friend has some sort of Apple thing attached
         | to his audio system, it works fine for streaming audio for
         | anyone with itunes, but doesn't do anything for android folks.
        
           | JohnBooty wrote:
           | That's the only (admittedly, a dealbreaker for many!)
           | downside. It does not do DLNA.
        
         | gedy wrote:
         | Thanks, had an 802.11n one sitting here and just tried, though
         | seems like it doesn't want to join an existing network. Even
         | when I had it create a network and joined, macos Ventura didn't
         | seem to see it as Airplay device.
        
           | daggersandscars wrote:
           | I have a similar setup and it works. Here's my info in case
           | it helps.
           | 
           | AirPort Express 802.11n 2nd gen running firmware 7.8.1. It's
           | joined to my 5Ghz network using 802.11n.
           | 
           | I have my home wifi configured with both 2.4 and 5Ghz
           | networks and the AirPort Express is aware of both. Not sure
           | if this makes a difference.
        
             | gedy wrote:
             | Thanks! Was old firmware, update did the trick.
        
         | AceJohnny2 wrote:
         | > Using the network printer requires Bonjour for Windows.
         | 
         | Offtopic, but I'm shocked that Windows still doesn't support
         | Bonjour/Zeroconf out-of-the-box.
         | 
         | I guess RFC 6762/6763 aren't enough for them?
        
           | vel0city wrote:
           | Windows does support zeroconf networking out of the box, just
           | different flavors from what Apple does out of the box.
           | NetBIOS and LLMNR _are_ Zeroconf DNS /service advertising in
           | the same vein as Bonjour.
        
             | AceJohnny2 wrote:
             | AFAIK, NetBIOS & LLMNR handle only the _hostname_ lookup.
             | Zeroconf adds the crucial ability to advertise _services_
             | (SSH, VNC, IPP...), so they 're not really the same thing.
        
               | vel0city wrote:
               | They're most known for hostname lookup but they can also
               | do service discovery. Although service discovery is then
               | tied closr to things like SSDP or WSD.
               | 
               | My Windows machine knows my home theater receiver is a
               | home theater receiver and knows it's a DLNA and a web
               | server running on it. My Windows machine knows my Brother
               | printer is a printer and scanner and can auto configure
               | the WSD drivers for it. My Windows machine can see my NAS
               | and can know it has fileshares on it to access as well as
               | knowing it has some DLNA functionality.
               | 
               | It does this through zeroconf networking protocols.
               | Different protocols from Bonjour, but it would be
               | incorrect to say it does not have any zeroconf networking
               | support out of the box.
        
         | maratc wrote:
         | To add, it is readily available on eBay and costs less there
         | than the _usual_ price of Raspberry Pi.
        
       | snalty wrote:
       | This would have been a perfect opportunity to use a Chromecast
       | audio, it's a shame Google canned it when it was still useful.
        
       | WalterBright wrote:
       | I just use the RCA plug to feed stereo to my 1980s Carver preamp,
       | then 1980s Carver amp, then 1980s Dahlquist speakers.
       | 
       | Been doing that forever. It all runs basically 16 hours a day,
       | every day, for decades.
       | 
       | No complaints about it.
        
         | gregschlom wrote:
         | >Been doing that forever
         | 
         | ^H^H^H^H^for the last 42 years
        
       | mihaylov wrote:
       | Seems like a good use-case for the chromecast audio (RIP). It
       | lets you stream to it over wifi and connects to the receiver with
       | 3.5mm to RCA cable
        
         | psalminen wrote:
         | It was also an spdif optical out which was super nice to hook
         | into a better DAC.
        
           | JohnBooty wrote:
           | Yes, although the actual streaming was lossily compressed,
           | which more than negates any gains from using a better DAC.
           | 
           | (edit - this is incorrect; the Chromecast Audio was
           | apparently updated at some point to support lossless
           | streaming)
        
             | jensgk wrote:
             | No, that is not true. Chromecast streaming is lossless, so
             | it is certainly possible to stream hi-res flac files bit-
             | perfect.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | Thanks for the correction. I think Chromecast Audio
               | initially didn't support lossless streaming, but at some
               | point it was updated to support it?
               | 
               | Regardless, thanks, and I updated my post!
        
           | Melatonic wrote:
           | Still using mine to this day
           | 
           | You can also put multiple chromecast audios in a group in
           | google home and they will perfectly sync audio across
           | multiple rooms like a ghetto Sonos setup!
        
         | bryanmgreen wrote:
         | One of the best dollar-to-performance purchases for home audio.
        
         | dsr_ wrote:
         | Which is especially nice if you install Owntone (
         | https://github.com/owntone/owntone-server/ ) -- now you have a
         | nice web interface for playing music to any or all of your
         | systems.
        
       | matthewmcg wrote:
       | I know that it's probably pretty well insulated with the layer of
       | black crinkle paint, but I still get uneasy seeing that picture
       | of the bare Raspberry Pi printed circuit board sitting directly
       | on top of the conductive metal case of the receiver while powered
       | on. At least put a piece of paper or something behind it, right?
       | Does anyone else worry the solder blobs or connector pins on the
       | bottom of the board will short out?
        
         | neverartful wrote:
         | I had the same thought when I saw the photo. I agree with you
         | on this, I'd put something in between (probably at least
         | cardboard).
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | I do indeed worry about it -- I plan on putting it in a case
         | pretty soon.
         | 
         | (This is not a justification since you're absolutely right, but
         | I've had a handful of different Pis running for years while
         | sitting on painted metal. In my experience, SD corruption is
         | much more common than shorts.)
        
           | criddell wrote:
           | I used to use my Raspberry Pi as an Octoprint server but
           | after the third dead SD card, I unplugged it.
           | 
           | Are you doing anything on this setup to prolong the life of
           | your SD card?
        
             | woodruffw wrote:
             | Nothing in particular: I believe HiFiBerryOS does some
             | stuff under the hood to minimize unnecessary writes, but I
             | didn't look too closely into it. The also provide shutdown
             | and reboot buttons via their Web UI, which I greatly
             | appreciate (and presumably help avoid any corruption that
             | can happen when just yanking the power).
             | 
             | For the other Pis I use, I see corrupted SDs roughly once
             | every 18 months. I replaced a couple of repeat offenders
             | with new cards (from a different vendor) a while back and
             | things seem to have stabilized, so my (lay) guess is that
             | some cards are just more finnicky on the Pi than others.
        
       | squarefoot wrote:
       | "It turns out that nothing really runs well on a 32-bit x86
       | machine anymore, including major Linux distributions and web
       | browsers."
       | 
       | Not true. The EeePC 701 netbook is a really minimal underpowered
       | machine, still it will run small Linux distros just fine (it was
       | actually sold with Linux in the first place). If you want a music
       | player that you can control from another room, you can do that by
       | installing a very small distro such as the x86 Alpine Linux image
       | (https://alpinelinux.org/downloads/) then the mpd daemon
       | (https://www.musicpd.org/ - it's in standard repositories install
       | it with "apk add mpd" from root shell) which can work headless,
       | therefore requiring very few resources, then a suitable control
       | app for your phone or tablet (search for mpd control app), so
       | that you can do pretty much everything through your home WiFi
       | from any room, basement, backyard, etc.
       | 
       | Should you experience noises, cracks, hum and static when
       | connecting the netbook to an amplifier _and_ to a mains adapter,
       | that is a common problem of ground loops and not of that
       | particular netbook, that will be easily solved by adding a small
       | audio transformer in between.
        
         | iquerno wrote:
         | International banking systems still rely on mainframes that
         | don't even support time sharing! I'm sure an x86 rack would
         | blow the socks off of the guy who has been maintaining the
         | COBOL clusters by himself for 30 years. On another note, my
         | EeePC still seems to work as well some old 32 bit Thinkpads
         | I've seen recently. It actually doesn't have overheating
         | problems like modern laptops do and I can simply replace the
         | ram, network card, pcmcia slots if I needed to. We need to stop
         | x86 discrimination :c
        
           | ElectricalUnion wrote:
           | > International banking systems still rely on mainframes that
           | don't even support time sharing!
           | 
           | [citation needed]
        
             | iquerno wrote:
             | I think I mixed up this information with the fact that DOD
             | is still running a cluster of IBM Series/1s to administer
             | the US nuclear force. (pretty sure there's no time
             | sharing). Definitely more interesting than international
             | banking ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Automate
             | d_Command_an...
        
         | RosanaAnaDana wrote:
         | The eee line were gems.
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | I'll grant that I hadn't tried installing Alpine -- I tried a
         | few different Debian/Ubuntu variants and ran into the same
         | handful of issues (including a few installers failing
         | completely.)
         | 
         | That being said, MPD is not a good solution for my particular
         | use case: I have family and friends that come over regularly,
         | and they want to play music. None of them are technical and are
         | easily dissuades by anything that doesn't immediately work with
         | AirPlay or another UPnP-style setup.
        
           | leni536 wrote:
           | > I tried a few different Debian/Ubuntu variants and ran into
           | the same handful of issues (including a few installers
           | failing completely.)
           | 
           | Did that include plain Debian?
        
             | woodruffw wrote:
             | Yep. I think the problem with plain Debian happened when
             | the base install momentarily exceeded the available disk
             | space (probably while decompressing packages during
             | install). I didn't bother debugging it further.
        
           | softwarebeware wrote:
           | MPD works great for non-tech-savvy friends over, you just
           | need to install a web-based client and they can point their
           | smartphone browser to it.
           | 
           | To make it even easier for friends and family, I set up a
           | dynamic DNS with a friendly URL like myjukebox.duckdns.org
           | that points to the 192.168.xxx.xxx address where this is
           | hosted.
           | 
           | Mopidy (https://mopidy.com/) as the MPD server with Iris
           | (https://mopidy.com/ext/iris/) as the client is a good setup
           | for this.
           | 
           | Even the tech-illiterate can get along with it.
        
             | woodruffw wrote:
             | > MPD works great for non-tech-savvy friends over, you just
             | need to install a web-based client and they can point their
             | smartphone browser to it.
             | 
             | There are different standards for this: my non-technical
             | friends could probably browse to a local website on their
             | smartphones. My parents would forget how to do it each
             | time, and would be annoyed that it doesn't look like
             | Spotify or Apple Music.
             | 
             | As it is, everybody on my network is able to auto-discover
             | the Pi using their phone or computer's native AirPlay/DLNA
             | support and play music using their application of choice
             | (meaning my server, their own MPD server, Spotify,
             | whatever). That kind of flexibility was a necessity for my
             | case.
        
               | softwarebeware wrote:
               | Doesn't that have the drawback, though, that you aren't
               | able to share the playlist? My biggest complaint about
               | Airplay (and also Bluetooth) is that someone might put
               | their music on but when I want to put "my" music on I
               | can't because they're paired to the given speakers.
               | 
               | The MPD approach is far better because each person's
               | client view is a shared view of a single playlist. People
               | can all add or update that playlist together.
        
               | woodruffw wrote:
               | This is definitely true -- there's no shared playlist
               | state, as far as I can tell, with this setup. I _think_
               | HiFiBerryOS supports MPD, but I haven 't looked too
               | closely into it.
               | 
               | At least for my purposes, this isn't too big of a
               | drawback: HiFiBerryOS seems to take a "FIFO" approach, so
               | taking over control just involves playing over AirPlay
               | and booting the last person off. Someone could of course
               | do that do me, but that's what social etiquette is for
               | :-)
        
       | sam1r wrote:
       | This is incredible! I wonder if there is any limitations with
       | audio streaming rate, especially for large flac files.
        
         | whycombinetor wrote:
         | Uncompressed 2ch 44.1kHz 16bit PCM is only 1.4Mbps. Even 7.1ch
         | 96khz 24bit is only 18.4Mbps. Should be plenty of headroom even
         | on "only" 100Mbps.
        
         | disposition2 wrote:
         | If you are referring to in-network, I've never had issues with
         | FLAC files up to 24/192. Out of network, I use Plex and PlexAmp
         | which can encode the same files to OGG for more mobile friendly
         | streamging
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | That's on my list of things to find out! I believe the Pi I'm
         | using (the Model 3B) only supports 10/100 Ethernet, so
         | bandwidth _might_ be a concern. From a quick search plenty of
         | other people are using Pis (including via HiFiBerryOS) as FLAC
         | players, so that part shouldn 't be an issue.
        
       | DrPhish wrote:
       | I did something similar, except I netboot a diskless hp thin
       | client (cheap for previous gen and no/bad storage) with openelec.
       | I opted specifically to not use a pi because I've had atrocious
       | luck with reliability, especially of the sd drive. Once Kodi is
       | running under openelec, everything can be controlled via Kodi
       | remote on a phone. No bluetooth, but that's a feature imo.
        
       | TheRealPomax wrote:
       | I went the other way. I tried laptops and raspis wirelessly, and
       | then with audio over ethernet but the difference in timing caused
       | by differences in signal decoding meant that you can couldn't sit
       | in one room with the door open with the speakers in the next room
       | also going because of microshift flanging (although I say micro,
       | some rooms were over 100ms out of sync, which is unbearable).
       | 
       | What I ended up doing instead of just running TRS cables along
       | the ethernet cables that were already going to the various rooms
       | I care to spend most of my time in, with some 4x4 audio
       | interfaces that take care of sending the audio to the various
       | speaker sets in those rooms (for rooms with more than one set).
       | Any interface's output can route to any other interface, so if
       | there's more than one thing playing you just press enable that
       | input in the room you're in, and done.
       | 
       | And of course, you can get the same done with some second hand
       | professional audio routing rack units, but (a) those are rather
       | inconveniently sized, and (b) you kinda need to have a hookup for
       | those, or get lucky, whereas audio interfaces are a few clicks
       | away and designed to at least look reasonably decent sat on a
       | bookshelf =)
       | 
       | More expensive? Probably. "Perfectly" synced audio across rooms?
       | Very much so.
        
         | Melatonic wrote:
         | Or just multiple chromecasts in the same group (chromecast
         | audio ideally but theoretically I suppose you could use any
         | chromecast with an HDMI converter to whatever audio format you
         | need)
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | It's effectively impossible to "sync" audio across a large area
         | (because if it is perfect in one area it will be imperfect in
         | another) so often the best you can do is adjust it until it
         | "sounds right".
         | 
         | Some software and some hardware have built-in delays you can
         | use to adjust as they do in a stadium, but often just getting
         | everything "speed of light" in a house is good enough.
         | 
         | The main thing is that you don't hear a delay when standing in
         | the doorway between rooms.
        
           | solardev wrote:
           | Don't Sonos, Ultimate Ears, Echo, Google Home etc solve this
           | problem pretty effectively? I know there was a bit of a
           | patent war between them for a while, but don't they still
           | have this feature?
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | They do - if you're using one kind for all. That's why
             | starting a song can sometimes take a bit as it
             | buffers/aligns.
             | 
             | It's when you're mixing software systems that the fun can
             | begin.
             | 
             | (Also if you can route cables in your walls whole-home
             | audio is way cheaper than you might expect:
             | https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=10761 kicks ass)
        
             | TheRealPomax wrote:
             | Those send the actual file data to the speakers, so you're
             | not "playing the audio" so much as each speaker literally
             | playing its own copy of the file, using synced playback
             | timing.
        
               | solardev wrote:
               | Is that the case even when you're streaming from Spotify
               | or Airplay, or say using their wireless 5.1 setup from
               | the soundbar?
               | 
               | And I mean, in the age of wireless speakers... aren't all
               | digital speakers receiving "file data", whether it's one
               | file at a time or one chunk at a time? What's the
               | difference?
               | 
               | Even if it's just timing data, I don't think I would be
               | able to figure out how to sync up two different devices'
               | times down to that level of precision. A little bit off
               | and you'd build up weird interferences, wouldn't you?
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | There are speakers/etc that use actual streaming
               | protocols - but that's become relatively rare.
        
             | creeble wrote:
             | FWIW, most of the patent war was about how Sonos syncs the
             | _volume controls_ so that changing a master volume level
             | changes all the synced volumes. Seems obvious (and
             | therefore unpatentable) but there is an ever-so-slightly-
             | not-quite-obvious-at-first-glance aspect to it.
             | 
             | I believe Google caved on this and doesn't allow master
             | level control with their devices. And of course they have
             | been counter suing Sonos on other patents as a result.
        
               | solardev wrote:
               | What an interesting tibid! I didn't realize that. Thanks
               | for sharing :)
               | 
               | What is it about the volume controls that are anymore
               | non-obvious than multi-room syncing to begin with?
        
               | creeble wrote:
               | It has to do with tracking the levels in the group.
               | 
               | You want to be able to slide a master level up and down
               | and have the levels maintain the "same" balance, even if
               | one of the players ends up going to (effectively) zero
               | level when you have turned it down. Takes a little bit of
               | thinking about how you represent the range of the levels.
               | 
               | I think the patent is actually quite a bit broader, and
               | covers using a UI that has a master volume control across
               | players whose individual volume levels are displayed as
               | well.
               | 
               | Google pulled all "master" level control in response.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | Apple still has one when casting to multiple HomePods; I
               | wonder if they licensed it.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | I suppose the argument would be that the "volume setting"
               | is metadata or out-of-band compared to the audio itself.
        
             | mastercheif wrote:
             | It's not open source or free, but Roon provides multi-zone
             | synchronized playback and has excellent Linux support
             | (including x64 and arm easy install scripts). See:
             | 
             | http://roonlabs.com
             | 
             | https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/linux-
             | instal...
             | 
             | Many Roon users use Raspberry Pi's as audio "bridge"
             | devices for their various audio setups around the house.
             | There's even dedicated RPi distros that offer Roon
             | packages:
             | 
             | https://ropieee.org (semi-open source)
             | 
             | https://dietpi.com (GPL)
             | 
             | You can read more about how Roon handles playback clock
             | sync using its RAAT protocol here:
             | 
             | https://community.roonlabs.com/t/raat-and-clock-
             | ownership/69...
             | 
             | Disclaimer: I work at Roon Labs LLC.
        
               | fragmede wrote:
               | It's not free, to the tune of $10/month! I'm willing to
               | pay for things, but I'm sorry, that's just not workable.
               | I'm _not_ going to pay for yet another subscription
               | service, especially one for my _speakers_.
               | 
               | I was really hopeful for a competitor to Sonos too. Ah
               | well, back to hoping Google ever brings back Chromecast
               | audio.
        
             | softwarebeware wrote:
             | Shout out for the open source option:
             | 
             | Snapcast - https://mjaggard.github.io/snapcast/
        
               | solardev wrote:
               | Interesting... so this isn't a device-specific firmware
               | hack, but a pipe? Does that mean it only works on things
               | running user-accessible Linux, not your typical smart
               | speaker?
        
               | 369548684892826 wrote:
               | The client doesn't run on typical smart speakers, but it
               | can run on Android, or through a web page, or on a
               | Raspberry Pi, amongst other things.
        
           | TheRealPomax wrote:
           | Unfortunately, decoding drift makes that seem initially fine,
           | and then half an hour later you're going "w. t. f." so after
           | several days of "why the f does this audio not STAY synced?"
           | I gave up and went cables.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | Yeah, I really like physical cables myself, and if
             | necessary you can buy analog audio delay units.
             | 
             | For real fun, you can get into 70 volt speakers, which many
             | people don't even know exist: https://www.parts-
             | express.com/70-volt-systems-beginners
        
       | royjacobs wrote:
       | Ah, very interesting to read about Subsonic being used here. I
       | was in the market for a similar setup a while ago and tried a
       | bunch of different servers. Navidrome was clearly one of the
       | better ones but didn't seem to support folder-based navigation,
       | which I want to use (since most of my music is not structured as
       | album-per-folder but rather as playlist-per-folder).
       | 
       | Like a good HN user I ended up writing my own Subsonic compatible
       | server [0]. It also does things mentioned in this blog post
       | series, like automatically grab cover art and metadata from
       | Musicbrainz/CoverArtArchive, Discogs and last.fm. I haven't
       | officially released it yet since it's missing a few features
       | (most notably transcoding, documentation and support for deleting
       | files) but looks like it might be worthwhile to spend that
       | effort. If you're feeling brave, you can compile it from source
       | or grab the Docker edge image[1].
       | 
       | It looks like I missed evaluating
       | https://github.com/sentriz/gonic though, so I might give that a
       | go as well.
       | 
       | [0] https://github.com/datatrash/beatlocker [1]
       | https://hub.docker.com/r/datatrash/beatlocker-server
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | I think this may have changed since the last time you checked
         | it out! For my setup (Navidrome with Sonixd as the client), I
         | can navigate through folders just fine.
         | 
         | Screenshot here[1].
         | 
         | [1]: https://imgur.com/a/NPHyjgC
        
           | royjacobs wrote:
           | Are these folders actual folders on your disk, though? Last
           | time I checked I could use Navidrome to browse folders, but
           | it would actually be browsing through albums instead.
        
             | woodruffw wrote:
             | Yeah, each of those corresponds to a folder on disk.
             | However, each of my artists is auto-managed by beets[1] so
             | I end up with one folder per artist, including one folder
             | per "feat." artist (like in the screenshot). So this may be
             | a case where my folders _happen_ to align with the artists
             | /albums, which might not work for you.
             | 
             | [1]: https://beets.io/
        
               | royjacobs wrote:
               | Right, I think your assumption is correct - it just
               | happens to align. Kudos for organising your collection so
               | well, though :)
        
       | jmathai wrote:
       | This looks great. I wish I had heard of HiFiBerryOS a year ago.
       | 
       | I ended up going with two Sonos Amps (one requirement for me was
       | everything be wired) to play music in 2 zones. I searched a bit
       | and didn't come across anything like this.
       | 
       | Nonetheless, it seems worthwhile enough that I might tinker with
       | it.
        
       | jordanthoms wrote:
       | If you want something which runs on the Raspberry PI and can do
       | airplay/DLNA etc to a USB DAC without any hacks, try RoPieee XL:
       | https://ropieee.org/xl/
        
       | colinb wrote:
       | Forgive my thread hijacking, but I suspect this is a place with
       | people who might know the answer to my question.
       | 
       | Given that I have a pair of reasonably nice speakers but a lack
       | of convenient wiring opportunities, I had thought to come up with
       | something like an RPi based amplifier connected to each, with
       | WiFi linking the two to form a stereo pair.
       | 
       | I.e. I have two speakers. Putting both of them near mains
       | electricity is easy. Having wires connecting both to the same amp
       | is a PITA. What cover thing could I do?
        
         | lifty wrote:
         | Not an expert but I think synchronising the signals might be
         | challenging if you hack it yourself. I know Airplay 2 has the
         | feature to pair speakers so perhaps if you can get Airplay 2
         | working on rpi then it might work. But in my experience the rpi
         | experience is sub par; it was working great while it was
         | working and then all of a sudden it stopped working.
        
         | qbasic_forever wrote:
         | It's very difficult and fighting an uphill battle to get two
         | totally independent wifi music receivers to together output a
         | single stero signal split across them. I don't think even
         | dedicated systems like Sonos support it. Run speaker wire
         | around the room perimeter to an amp and you will be infinitely
         | happier.
        
           | hnlmorg wrote:
           | It's a massive challenge implementing this yourself but
           | various smart speaker protocols have supported syncing
           | speakers for a while now. I can't speak for if they also
           | split stereo signals (I think I read Yamaha can) but
           | splitting a stereo signal is very easy even without comparing
           | it to the challenge of syncing speakers.
        
           | fuckstick wrote:
           | > I don't think even dedicated systems like Sonos support it.
           | 
           | They do. So do HomePods, other mass brands. Not my cup of
           | tea, but people seem to love them when they work.
        
         | softwarebeware wrote:
         | I'm unclear of the exact problem. Are you having a problem with
         | powering two passive speakers from the same amplifier? Or you
         | have two active speakers (each with its own internal amplifier
         | and plug into the wall) and you have a problem with connecting
         | a stereo music source to them?
        
         | Kaibeezy wrote:
         | Bookshelf speakers in a small room only really need to be 4'
         | apart, up to 6' or 8' for floor-standers in a large room. You
         | could run the wires behind items on a shelf, under the floor,
         | through a "wiremold" cover, paint the wire and tack it along a
         | baseboard, or try "flat speaker wire".
        
       | mrj0e wrote:
       | I have a Technics SU-C800U and SE-A900S with the wonderful VU
       | Meters. I have a Pi running Volumio.
       | 
       | Volumio can do all that HifiberryOS does but is not hardware
       | tied, ie you can use any DAC https://volumio.com/en/get-started/
       | Volumio has a great web UI. Jellyfin is a great OS server. I use
       | Plex as my music server and the rather wonderful Plexamp app on
       | my phone but it's paid and proprietary, but worth it.
        
         | nrki wrote:
         | Another plug for Volumio. I added smart features to my hifi
         | system with it. Very reliable and great Spotify integration.
        
         | throw4566 wrote:
         | Did they finally upgrade from jessie? They had really outdated
         | versions when I last checked them out?
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | Thanks for sharing! I definitely saw Volumio at some point and
         | completely forgot about it; I'll have to give it another try.
        
       | anthk wrote:
       | I would love a USB audio(4) (OpenBSD) compatible FM transmitter.
       | That's it, an FM transmitter detected as a USB sound card.
        
       | Kaibeezy wrote:
       | Not sure how it's this complicated. I have normal laptops,
       | desktops and phones connected to 70s and 80s vintage stuff all
       | over the house. $10 Bluetooth dongle here, PS10 DAC there, and
       | Bob's my uncle. Sounds fine most of the time; over to vinyl for
       | whisky time.
       | 
       | Examples:                 - USB to basic DAC to RCA from desktop
       | to huge 70s Sansui G-7000 receiver       - 1/8" jack to RCA jack
       | input from desktop to Tivoli Audio radio       - 1/8" jack to RCA
       | jack input from Echo Dot to McIntosh MX-115 preamp       -
       | Bluetooth dongle to RCA from iPhone to 60s Leak Stereo 70 amp
        
         | iquerno wrote:
         | I once worked for a PA "contractor" and the thing that blew me
         | away the most was how not one of the self professed audiophiles
         | could reliably tell the difference between a universal audio
         | preamp with flat presets and a 1.50$ crapbox I built with some
         | scrap op-amps and a soldering iron.
        
           | mellavora wrote:
           | Well naturally not, because obviously you were using low-
           | quality speaker cable and the cable capacitance would muddy
           | the sound. Also, the speakers were probably the wrong brand.
           | /s
        
           | iwillbenice wrote:
        
           | JohnBooty wrote:
           | That's awesome. =)                   self professed
           | audiophiles
           | 
           | The positive news here is that in recent years, there has
           | been a growing trend of objective audiophiles who understand
           | things from an engineering perspective and eschew that kind
           | of snake oil stuff.
           | 
           | We would find it totally unsurprising that your $1.50
           | "crapbox" was indistinguishable from the fancy gear. And
           | congratulate you for helping to expose those frauds.
        
         | scarecrowbob wrote:
         | I have a similar setup with a TEAC receiver, a technics
         | truntable , and some nice speakers I got from my dad.
         | 
         | When the fan went out on the TEAC, I just wired it to a tiny
         | power amp I got off amzn which had bluetooth, and just stream
         | off bluetooth from whatever device I am wanting to use.
         | 
         | I'd ditch the receiver all together (cause I don't really need
         | FM or CDs), but it has a phono preamp for the turntable and I
         | occasionally like to listen to records. It's nie when we can
         | make these things simple.
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | At the end of the day, I don't think it actually _is_ that
         | complicated. The narrative style makes it sound that way (since
         | I wrote it as a culmination of trying a few different things),
         | but the final setup with the Pi only took about 3 hours
         | including the patching.
         | 
         | The two constraints that I mentioned in the post should help
         | explain the residual complexity: I didn't want to buy any new
         | equipment (including a Bluetooth dongle, which I don't own),
         | and I wanted the setup to be _maximally_ accessible to my
         | friends and family while still working with my own computers
         | (in different rooms). AirPlay and DLNA achieve that; Bluetooth
         | is finnicky and wouldn 't connect at the distance between my
         | receiver and my office.
        
           | Kaibeezy wrote:
           | As a person who routinely spends hours trying to save 5
           | minutes, I get you ;) I also hear that a lot of people like
           | to have sound through multiple rooms and be able to control
           | it remotely, which I don't really do.
           | 
           | And to be fair, I sometimes hate the Bluetooth dongle, which
           | works fine for streaming and longer albums and if I'm sitting
           | still, but powers off annoyingly (even when plugged in) 2
           | minutes after the signal stops or if I dare to step out of
           | range.
           | 
           | I switched the dining room system over to an old iPhone with
           | 1/8" jack (I'm hoarding those) after looking for a DAC for
           | the iPhone and basically seeing that the onboard is not so
           | bad. Wifi to Amazon Music, done.
        
         | Gordonjcp wrote:
         | Cheap crappy PS5 bluetooth chip PCB off eBay, small mod to the
         | cassette player in the factory stereo in my 1997 Range Rover,
         | and I now have a bluetooth stereo that my phone works through
         | without any annoying dangly dongles or aftermarket bodged-in
         | stereo wiring.
         | 
         | I could have spent a couple of hundred quid on a decent head
         | unit, and then some more on the interfaces to go down to line
         | level for the amps in the doors and subwoofer, and then some
         | more on interfaces to make the steering wheel controls and CD
         | player work, and then some more to ensure the door amps
         | actually switch on.
         | 
         | Or, PCB the size of my thumb, covered in heatshrink and held
         | against the cassette drive PCB with a dot of hot glue.
        
         | JohnBooty wrote:
         | Yeah, I do similarly.
         | 
         | But OP wanted something that any guest could connect to over
         | WiFi. OP's setup also offers the advantage of AirPlay which
         | offers true lossless 44.1/16 streaming and other advantages
         | relative to Bluetooth.
        
         | recursive wrote:
         | When playing a single source on multiple speakers, I'd expect
         | bluetooth latency to present a synchronization problem. How is
         | it in practice?
        
       | criddell wrote:
       | Which HiFiBerry DAC are you going to use? Looks like they have
       | about a dozen different DACs and I'd love some guidance on what
       | would probably be a decent default choice.
       | 
       | Also, you mentioned that volume control is a next step. For me,
       | that feels like a pretty fundamental thing. Isn't that built-in
       | to the Spotify, AirPlay protocols, and DNLA protocols?
        
         | doubled112 wrote:
         | One thing that doesn't seem immediately obvious with the
         | HiFiBerry DAC+ ADC Pro I have is that input and output are
         | separate devices.
         | 
         | I assumed it would be a checkbox or two, but I couldn't mix the
         | input jack into the output without doing it in software, and
         | PulseAudio would drop samples at lower latencies. I admit I
         | didn't troubleshoot this very long though.
         | 
         | MPD, Bluetooth and an AUX input was all I wanted, and I could
         | make it work for scenarios that didn't need the low latency
         | part.
        
         | LeoPanthera wrote:
         | For hifi use, the HiFiBerry DAC2 HD is reasonable. All the
         | other HiFiBerry DACs are good "for the price" but not that
         | great on an absolute scale.
         | 
         | You'd be much better off with a USB DAC. For example, the
         | Topping D10s or the JDS Atom DAC+ are both about $100 and
         | you're unlikely to be able to tell the difference between them
         | and literally any other DAC available at a higher price.
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | I bought the DAC2 Pro. I don't know if it's the right pick for
         | me yet -- I guess I'll find out!
         | 
         | The part about volume control was a little ambiguous: I can
         | absolutely control the volume via the "soft" controls in
         | AirPlay, DLNA, or my desktop's own soft mixer. What I meant was
         | the "main" volume control on the receiver itself, which is
         | motorized and controllable via an IR remote.
         | 
         | It's kind of a non-issue since I can just set the receiver's
         | volume sufficiently high and then moderate using the "soft"
         | controls, but I thought it'd be fun to try and automate the
         | main control as well.
        
       | gaoshan wrote:
       | He mentions a Yamaha RX-495 and asks "circa late 1990s, I
       | think?". I can confirm that it is. I bought that same model in
       | 1997 or 1998 and still use it for my turntable.
        
       | friend_and_foe wrote:
       | As someone who used to do all this kind of stuff, what I settled
       | on in the end was having a subwoofer and two speakers on a desk
       | with a 3.5mm cable strewn across in case anyone wanted to use it.
       | 
       | I mostly gave up on wireless this and that and constantly on
       | electronics doing things in the background. Now I just watch
       | shows on my laptop, keep my media on a 2.5" sata HDD with a sata
       | to USB cable, and be sure to copy anything I've downloaded onto
       | it every once in a while. I keep it simple, I'm now of the
       | opinion that if you spend more time administering than using
       | software it's not worth it. And to me, the amount of time I'd put
       | into setting this stuff up, troubleshooting, updating software
       | and whatever else just doesn't make up for having to plug things
       | in when I need to.
        
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