[HN Gopher] Goethe and Schiller ushered in the romantic age
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Goethe and Schiller ushered in the romantic age
Author : lermontov
Score : 38 points
Date : 2022-11-06 02:02 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.prospectmagazine.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.prospectmagazine.co.uk)
| pyuser583 wrote:
| The original title is: "How Goethe and Schiller ushered in the
| romantic age" which makes more sense than the current title
| "Goethe and Schiller ushered in the romantic age."
|
| The fact the Goethe and Schiller ushered in the Romantic Age is
| pretty uncontroversial.
| 50 wrote:
| entgotterte Natur (Schiller)
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Fwiw Beethoven was inspired by Schiller, and the finale of
| Beethoven's 9th symphony is an adaptation of Schiller's poem "Ode
| to Joy".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_Joy
| TomDavey wrote:
| No: music ushered in the Romantic age, earlier than Goethe and
| Schiller in literature.
|
| The musical style, a decisive break from the High Baroque, was
| initially called "Sturm und Drang." It appeared in the work of
| Gluck and Haydn in the 1760s.
|
| By the first decade of the 19th century, Goethe and Schiller had
| retreated from Romanticism. In the same decade, middle-period
| Beethoven had already made Romanticism immortal.
|
| Immortal is not an exaggeration. To this day, orchestral film
| music remains utterly derivative of late Romantic composers like
| Richard Strauss.
|
| The most famous example of musical Romanticism's enduring
| dominion is probably the opening of Kubrick's "2001: A Space
| Odyssey." Everybody knows the fanfare and the ecstatic harmonic
| progression that follows in full tutti; few know it was written
| by Strauss in 1894.
|
| The rip-offs of Academy Award winner John Williams would be
| impossible without the much better music of the 19th century.
|
| Corresponding data point: in 1822, Beethoven chose Schiller's
| "Ode to Joy" (1785) to provide the lyrics for the final movement
| of the 9th Symphony.
| Tainnor wrote:
| I don't think it's wise to conflate Sturm und Drang with
| Romanticism, despite their similarities. They are also quite
| distinct in many respects.
|
| And Beethoven is rightfully considered to be a transition point
| between the Classical and the Romantic style, you can hear the
| echos of Haydn (and even Bach) even in his late works.
| TomDavey wrote:
| I was careful to say "middle-period Beethoven." Beethoven's
| stylistic evolution over the course of his life truly
| astonishes. In his late period, e.g., the Grosse Fugue, one
| can hear Bartok being invented.
|
| And he was stone deaf by then. It's staggering.
| billfruit wrote:
| Wasn't Hegel a contemporary of Goethe? What effect did both of
| them have on each other?
| ex3xu wrote:
| Goethe and Hegel both get some character-driven exposition in
| this book, but Hegel is about twenty years younger than Goethe,
| so the interactions focus more on the contemporaneous groupings
| of Goethe-Schiller-Fichte and later Schelling-Hegel than direct
| interaction between the two. Goethe as a poet is generally
| viewed more through the lens of literary criticism as opposed
| to the philosopher Hegel who is generally studied with the
| analytical rigor of philosophy, considering his position as one
| of the premier post-Kantian German idealists.
|
| The two share much ideological agreement, like when both
| offered great praise for Schiller's _Letters on the Aesthetic
| of Education of Man_ , but while Hegel generally quotes Goethe
| with veneration, Goethe seems generally suspicious of Hegel's
| philosophy -- in one meeting offering open criticism to Hegel
| about his dialectic, for example.
|
| One work that goes into detail on both thinkers would be the
| late Walter Kaufmann's first volume of his trilogy _Discovering
| the Mind_ , in which he offers an opinionated criticism of Kant
| and Hegel's obscurity and obfuscation by contrasting it with
| Goethe's thematic clarity.
| ex3xu wrote:
| Wulf is an unconventional historian with an unconventional
| background, and her work reads much more like a narrative-driven
| piece of New Journalism than a theoretical entry from the
| Cambridge Studies series on philosophy. As revealed by the
| tagline of this book, _The Invention of the Self_ , Wulf's new
| work is an exploration into the roots of modern conceptions of
| self-determination done through character studies of the Weimar
| classicists -- Goethe, Schiller, Fichte, and Kant in particular.
| I could see fans of narrative-driven nonfiction writers like
| Laura Hillenbrand or Roger Lowenstein enjoying Andrea Wulf in the
| same way.
|
| While I am always happy to see new work focusing on the Weimar
| classicists, whose ideas serve as a stark contrast to dystopic
| forces from the brutality of the French revolution to the
| banality of corporate life today, I think I agree with this
| article writer about the weakness of Wulf's synopses. As
| compelling as Wulf's exposition is, it feels to me somewhat
| overpractical to constrain these powerful thinkers through the
| lens of a Socratic _Know Thyself_ commandment in her emphasis on
| self-determination. Certainly there is a place for a feel-good,
| narrative-driven book like this, but I personally would point
| people towards the essays curated by Carroll, Giles, and Oergle
| in _Aesthetics and Modernity_ or Leslie Sharpe 's _Cambridge
| Studies_ entry on Schiller for a drier but more thought provoking
| exploration of German Idealism and the valuable concepts it would
| spawn through the Frankfurt School in the twentieth century.
| [deleted]
| bogomipz wrote:
| Might you have a link to "Aesthetics and Modernity" or say who
| the author is? I found a couple of titles but they seemed to be
| about political theory.
|
| Also might you or someone else recommend something in between
| Wulf and a Cambridge Studies series style book?
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