[HN Gopher] Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than p...
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Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think
Author : konichi-value
Score : 249 points
Date : 2022-11-01 07:38 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.konichivalue.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.konichivalue.com)
| andy_ppp wrote:
| Every time these articles come up I think about what a shafting
| people in Japan are taking on property and why western media want
| to write articles lying about it to the public. Japanese property
| is tiny by any metric compared to western property; maybe there
| are some rich people who would like to remove housing regulations
| and make more money selling crap tiny plastic homes to people at
| absurd valuations...
| dontbenebby wrote:
| Maybe it's only cheap due to the barriers to immigration? I've
| only been to Japan once, but I noticed how they're very formal
| compared to the various EU countries.
|
| I keep meeting people who move to Appalachia and not register
| that the things that made it attractive (low crime etc) won't
| stay that way if people keep talking to me like I'm literally
| retarded.
|
| (Every time someone tells me "I work in technology or whatever as
| I walk to get my espresso, I want to say " _Great! Enjoy locking
| down your house like my South African neighbor told me they had
| to during apartheid, I 've had too many of these conversations
| where the person was speaking in bad faith._")
| diceduckmonk wrote:
| > Maybe it's only cheap due to the barriers to immigration?
|
| Permanent Residency is helpful towards procuring a mortgage,
| but you don't need a visa to buy property in Japan. Non-
| resident cash buyers had no problem pushing up the real estate
| market in Vancouver, Canada.
| dang wrote:
| Recent and related:
|
| _How Tokyo avoided the affordable housing crisis_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32894963 - Sept 2022 (90
| comments)
| franciscop wrote:
| The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience,
| looking at numbers it seems "Tokyo" means "Tokyo Metropolis",
| which includes the countryside, mountains, etc. So it's not
| really comparing the city. If we look at the numbers for Tokyo 23
| wards[1] (what would traditionally be called "the city"), we can
| see they are virtually half than those from Paris or London:
|
| 16.5-19.7sqm/person is the range that falls in the median (50%)
| for Tokyo 23 wards[1]. Only 30% of houses have the minimum
| recommended of 25sqm/person (so, 70% live UNDER in under
| 25sqm/person). If the other cities in the graph are correct, that
| makes Tokyo median size around half of the average of those other
| cities[2].
|
| So yes, definitely Tokyo housing is tiny. I know it since I live
| here and talk with people; when I invite someone who is not in
| tech to my place they all comment on how big my 37 sqm "house"
| (studio/single room) is, to which I can only agree and laugh/cry
| inside. I'm happy because I am well for living in Tokyo, but it's
| still a tiny place compared to my hometown where everyone lives
| like kings.
|
| [1] https://resources.realestate.co.jp/living/how-much-living-
| sp...
|
| [2] I believe I'm using median/average correctly here, but happy
| for corrections! I check "at what sizes it's 50% of the # of
| households" and then took that measure. Sorry for mixing medians
| and averages, but I cannot calculate averages with the numbers I
| found.
| SECProto wrote:
| > The housing space metrics seem very far off from my
| experience
|
| I have friend living in Tokyo paying <10Mo Yuan in rent for a
| (very small) single unit. A couple other friends share a larger
| unit and pay similar per person. All are in the 23 wards. This
| is unimaginable for other friends living in Paris (one of the
| 20 Arrondissements) and New York (one of the 5 boroughs),
| regardless of size. I have no anecdata on London.
|
| Regarding size, I was far more comfortable living in a ~550sqft
| 1LDK in Japan than I ever was in 800sqft-1000sqft apartments in
| North America - everything is geared to living in tighter
| quarters (from furniture to fridge to food packaging) making it
| much more convenient than trying to fit a full size couch into
| a small western apartment, or trying to save by bulk buying
| ingredients when you don't have the space to store it.
|
| So I think the title of the article is half right (rent is
| cheaper than you'd think), missing some key info (wages are
| also cheaper than you'd think), half of it is roughly incorrect
| (housing is not any more spacious than you'd think), and the
| article itself doesn't back it up well.
| Konichivalue wrote:
| Yes, the numbers are a bit skewed by the fact that more
| people live alone in Tokyo than Paris or NYC, but it's
| definitely true that you get more square meters per $ in
| Tokyo. Also, it is true that people on Tokyo on average earn
| less than NYC, London and Paris, but they also spend a
| smaller percentage of their total income on housing, so
| housing is cheaper in PPP terms too. I'll dig out the exact
| numbers tomorrow if anyone is interested, but now I'm out in
| one of Tokyo's extremely cheap bar districts having skewers
| and beers for less than $10
| franciscop wrote:
| Do you know numbers about how much housing is sponsored by
| the companies in Japan? Maybe that's what is making the
| difference since it's not counted neither as salary, nor as
| the price of the house? I know some large companies sponsor
| partially or totally the housing of thousands of their
| employees, again skewing prices greatly.
|
| For example if Tanaka's salary is $500 lower because the
| company is partially paying for their place, that means on
| paper his salary is lower, the price of the place is MUCH
| lower, and the ratio of housing/salary is also lower, than
| if he received those $500 and then used it to pay for the
| house.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| In Tokyo, you can work as a part time janitor and make
| enough to live in a 500 square foot place within a 30
| minute commute by train
| donw wrote:
| No, you can't.
|
| 50sqm is a large apartment for a single person. Without
| checking, I'd guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 20
| man per month.
|
| A part time janitor would gross half that.
| wst_ wrote:
| They aren't from my experience working in two major
| Japanese companies. Sometimes they'll pay your network
| bill if WFH is allowed, but that's basically it. Not sure
| about smaller companies, but honestly, I'd be surprised.
| franciscop wrote:
| They definitely do, I was paid for it working at a
| Japanese company, and I know multiple personal cases
| where that happened as well (one was a dormitory, another
| full housing, and another partial housing). The internet
| is full of evidence that it _happens_ , so my question is
| "how often?".
|
| e.g. https://www.gtalent.jp/blog/japanwork-en/social-
| insurance-we... or https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/com
| ments/54fjgf/how_much_...
| donw wrote:
| One of the apartments that I used to rent was owned by a
| large Japanese firm, specifically for the purpose of
| renting out at a substantial discount to its employees.
| flanbiscuit wrote:
| 10Mo Yuan = 100,000 yen, which is about:
|
| USD 675.18
|
| EURO 683.40
|
| GBP 588.43
|
| For anyone who is interested but too lazy to search
| coobird wrote:
| Note that the JPY lost about 30% of value this year, while
| rent (nor wages, nor cost of living) haven't caught up to
| those figures. For the past few years, the JPY/USD rate was
| around 110.
| sdrothrock wrote:
| In terms of costs of living and salary percentage, 100,000
| yen _feels_ like it 's around $1000 or so.
|
| For context, a new grad will probably end up making around
| 200,000 - 250,000 yen (before taxes) a month at a lot of
| places.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| To be clear, in the last one year, the Japanese yen vs US
| dollar has declined by about 23%: 148 JPY/USD vs 114
| JPY/USD. As a result, "dollarised" Tokyo real estate
| suddenly looks very cheap. For foreign investors / foreign
| captial, yes, this is true. For local residents / local
| investors, there is _still_ almost zero inflation here. As
| a result, local real estate prices are mostly unaffected by
| USD /JPY FX rates.
|
| When looking at real estate expenses from perspective of
| local residents, it is always best to look at local
| currency median income. If median income or real estate
| prices are unchanged _relative_ to local currency median
| income, who cares(!). The rest is just an article in a
| financial newspaper!
| franciscop wrote:
| We need a disclaimer since from ~last month FX has gone
| crazy, whether we are using old or new numbers. For me I'm
| still thinking 10Mo Yuan is:
|
| USD ~1000 (a bit less, but just insignificant)
|
| EUR 800~900
|
| And virtually all articles you find today regarding real
| estate, USD vs JPY, etc. will be talking with old numbers.
| It's important to talk about the new numbers, but I'd wait
| a bit for them to stabilize before being "acktually the yen
| now is" in articles (I'm not saying parent comment is doing
| that, just warning that those people are everywhere).
| franciscop wrote:
| I never mentioned anything about prices though :)
|
| 550sqft (52sqm) for a single person is unheard of here. Look
| at the article I shared, unfortunately it cuts off at 30sqm,
| meaning ALL the houses of 30sqm or more make up 22% of the
| total. Assuming a normal distribution that peaks around
| 20sqm/person, you should've lived in the top 1-2% of Tokyo.
|
| I feel like Paris' 20 Arrondissements is too small,
| comparable to Zone 1 of London and "Yamanote area" in Tokyo,
| while New York 5 boroughs is a lot bigger and more comparable
| with 23 Wards. But anyway let's go with it, since at least
| it's much better than comparing it with Tokyo Metropolitan.
| With Airbnb (which is usually a lot more expensive than long-
| term rental) I can find a bunch of places for under 1k USD:
|
| https://imgur.com/a/FIODYlo
|
| For London I could literally not find any, and for Tokyo also
| a bunch of places (you might notice that these are way
| further from the center than the area of Paris, but hey I
| said that was fair):
|
| https://imgur.com/a/0XEvBcT
|
| So it seems that London is particularly expensive, similar to
| Tokyo's Yamanote; while Paris 20 Arrondissements are at a
| similar place as Tokyo 23 wards.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| People living in Tokyo don't check AirBNB to find
| apartments to rent
|
| Unfortunately, the sites they DO use are entirely in
| Japanese, so you're not going to be able to get usfeful
| infographic data in a few minutes
| SECProto wrote:
| Yes, my 550sqft (was a very rough size approximation, 5 yrs
| ago from memory) was certainly not in Tokyo, and the 4Mo
| (plus utilities) that I paid for rent was seen as
| expensive. I was just using it as a basis to show that
| straight space comparisons between japan residences and
| north american residences aren't reasonable, as everything
| is geared to smaller living.
| amrocha wrote:
| C'mon mate you can't be for real, you can't just look at
| Airbnb data and make any conclusions about rent from that.
| They literally target different audiences.
| [deleted]
| spoonjim wrote:
| I lived in 250sqft with a shared bathroom in NYC for 2 years
| and loved it. Loved in 800 sqft in suburban America for 4
| months and couldn't handle it. In a big city with affordable
| Third Spaces you can simply live outside of your apartment.
| scelerat wrote:
| I've had the good fortune to visit Tokyo several times, and
| visited a few apartments of friends who have regular middle
| class jobs: animators, cooks, tailors. Every apartment was
| tiny. Like less than half the size of any apartment I've ever
| lived in at any point of my life living in Los Angeles or San
| Francisco.
|
| I've stayed many times with a friend whose father is a well-
| known Japanese movie actor and even they live in a house which
| would be modest by any US suburban standard, in a quiet part of
| a nice neighborhood (kichijoji) but still an 8-10 minute walk
| to trains and very bustling, active parts of town.
|
| The thing I've found remarkable with Tokyo is how walkable it
| is and how, despite how crowded and dense it can seem, the
| street level experience can feel very accessible and not at all
| overwhelming. Many good parks, walking paths and general
| accommodations for people not in cars.
| golemiprague wrote:
| odiroot wrote:
| > The housing space metrics seem very far off from my
| experience, looking at numbers it seems "Tokyo" means "Tokyo
| Metropolis", which includes the countryside, mountains, etc. So
| it's not really comparing the city.
|
| Yep. In that case half of Berkshire, Hampshire, Kent, Surrey
| etc. should count as well.
| wst_ wrote:
| I'm sure you've researched this and sure some apartments in
| Tokyo are small. I'd like to touch upon the big-house comment,
| though. It may be that your Japanese friends say that simply
| because it is polite, and very common, thing to say when you
| visit someone's house for the first time.
| [deleted]
| camkego wrote:
| If they are considering Tokyo Metropolis, they might be
| including Ogasawara, which is 1000km from downtown Tokyo.
| [deleted]
| cannam wrote:
| I don't know about NY or Paris, but the comparison against
| London seems fair enough. They seem to be using a Tokyo
| metropolitan area of about 2000 km^2, and comparing it with
| Greater London at 1572 km^2.
|
| And indeed, people throughout Greater London are entirely used
| to living in small, damp, shared boxes.
| franciscop wrote:
| The geography of the "cities" is very different though (look
| at the density of population maps provided), where "Tokyo
| Metropolitan" is one third pure mountains, then one third
| low-density living (think L.A.) and then one third what
| people normally thinks of the city of Tokyo, all of these in
| a sausage-like shape, while "Greater London" grows in a
| circle and so it's a circle-ish area.
|
| See this image with the labels, we should compare the green
| one instead of the 3 of them. Ideally "Tokyo" would be
| something more like the purple one, but the purple one is
| nothing. So we have "23 wards" (green), or Tokyo Metropolitan
| (the 3 together), neither of which is the best comparison,
| but def the green one vs London is much better than all of
| them (the purple dashes are how I think London would look
| like approx):
|
| https://imgur.com/a/nCmkE80
| ouid wrote:
| If you want to take a more principled approach to size
| here, you should use a metric that corresponds to how
| humans interact with the region. Pick a point to call the
| center and find all the points with a round trip time less
| than some number.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| To complement your post: To be clear, no one with a deep
| understanding of Tokyo area considers anything outside the
| "23 ku's" as Tokyo. Really, Okutama, Tokyo (two hours west
| of world's busiest train station: Shinjuku) is comically
| rural -- literally, there are big mountains and small
| family farms that grow wasabi (delicious!). Yes, the
| province of Tokyo is enormous and includes lots of
| protected nature (and lovely hiking trails!), but when most
| people say "Tokyo" they mean the central 23 cities
| ("ku's"). If you want to get more specific, Tokyoites
| sometimes discriminiate between inside and outside the loop
| train line called Yamanote line. It is definitely the sense
| of urban and ex-urban in Tokyo.
| bombcar wrote:
| Yeah, every "city" has a point at which you're clearly
| "outside the city" but what you count changes depending
| on who you talk to.
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/place/Okutama,+Nishitama+Dist
| ric...
|
| The "gray areas" on a map like this might be a decent
| "rule of thumb" but even those can be misleading. The
| best way to determine it is talk to a local.
|
| The other amusing thing is that if some city is _famous_
| tons of areas around it will often claim it in name if
| not address; you 'll find "New York Shop" in New Jersey
| from time to time, especially if doing mail-order
| business.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| And even for the "green" area, a good part of it is not
| that dense. I mean, it is still packed, but most of it is
| made of small 2 story houses rather than large apartment
| complexes and high rise buildings.
|
| The real dense part that looks like the pictures of Tokyo
| you have most likely seen is around the Yamanote line, a
| train line that circles an area that is about 1/10 of the
| green area.
| franciscop wrote:
| I see it everyday since I live here, no need for pics :)
|
| But yeah I agree, one of the first things that surprised
| me is that you can walk for 20 mins (in the right
| direction) from any major train station and find yourself
| in a tiny 1-2 stories houses area.
| [deleted]
| Jach wrote:
| Thanks for the additional info, I found it a rather terrible
| article. Even taking its numbers at face value, it makes me sad
| for non-Americans. The difference between the NY average of 43
| sqm vs the rest is essentially an extra room.
| m3at wrote:
| A peculiarity of renting in Japan (not mentioned in the article):
| you often need to advance a _substantial_ amount of money upon
| starting a lease. It varies but a rule of thumb is about 5 months
| of rent. Part of it is advanced rent, but some is non-recoverable
| (key money, brokerage fee, insurance, cleaning fee...). Contracts
| are often two years, and at the end of it you typically have a
| renewal fee as well, at around a month of rent.
| assbuttbuttass wrote:
| When did paying 30% of your paycheck in rent become "very
| affordable?"
| coryrc wrote:
| What else do you need to spend lots of money on?
| rfreytag wrote:
| In the US you might need to plan for health care expenses and
| higher-education.
| tjpnz wrote:
| I'm looking at buying next year. Unlike where I'm from (New
| Zealand) property in Tokyo is better quality (although that's not
| really difficult) and dare I say cheaper.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| I've heard good things about New Zealand real estate. I'm
| guessing spiraling prices are why you'd want to leave?
| Jach wrote:
| I've also heard it's rather easier for a foreigner to buy than
| to find a willing landlord...
| johnwalkr wrote:
| That's a stretch and it is hard to get a home loan in your
| first years. It is true that when searching for a rental you
| will probably come across landlords that don't rent to
| foreigners, and more that won't rent to Chinese people. Many
| landlords also expect you to speak at least some Japanese.
|
| That being said, it's competitive only for average
| sized/priced places. Both low end and above-average
| properties are easier to rent.
| smcl wrote:
| Just out of curiosity - is it largely just "I only speak
| Japanese and don't know how I'd deal with a foreigner"
| thing or do those kinds of landlords tend to think
| negatively of the foreigners?
|
| As an immigrant I know it can be a bit fiddly to resolve
| some things when there's a language barrier, but as long as
| both sides are patient and willing to try things can go
| relatively smoothly
| [deleted]
| eps wrote:
| Offtopic, but
|
| > the tallest building in Tokyo is only 255 meters
|
| There is a hotel in this tower (called Andaz) and it has a proper
| swimming pool _on the 37th floor_. Quite an jaw-dropping
| experience on its own, but doubly so during an earthquake.
| bluepizza wrote:
| You barely feel it during an earthquake, because the building
| has multiple stabilising mechanisms.
| eps wrote:
| Yep, but you do feel it, because something is... off.
| bluepizza wrote:
| Ah, yes, It's super freaky. I worked from a hotel room at
| the Yokohama Landmark Tower for a month, and I had some
| freak outs. Your balance feels off, even if you don't feel
| the shakes.
| belter wrote:
| https://youtu.be/lJ8cv4t2tT8
| yboris wrote:
| I paid $1,500 for _furnished_ 2 bedroom:
|
| Can confirm. Three years ago I spent 2 months in a _furnished_
| two bedroom apartment two stops away from Shinjuku - paid $1,500
| / month. Had three different subway stations within ~7 min walk
| each. Great location, very inexpensive.
|
| The company I used is _Fontana_ - English speaking, they set up
| gas /electric/water and all I had to do was pay for them at the
| convenience store nearby (7 Eleven). The only requirement is a
| 2-month minimum stay. Will do again.
| didip wrote:
| Ever since experiencing sticker shock in Silicon Valley housing 7
| years ago.
|
| Housing in Tokyo or Seoul no longer looked expensive in my eyes.
| TedShiller wrote:
| People who think denser housing lowers rents haven't been to a
| big city.
|
| Someone always mentions "But Tokyo...". That person never lives
| in Tokyo.
| fareesh wrote:
| Older cities have a lot of legacy issues that manifest in
| multiple ways. Housing is one of them. Solving the problem is
| hard since the cities can't be re-planned and rebuilt.
| rippercushions wrote:
| The article makes a major mistake: it uses Tokyo Metropolis
| (Tokyo-to, basically "Tokyo State", area 2,194.07 km2) for
| comparisons, not central Tokyo (23-ku, aka the former Tokyo City,
| area 619 km2). So it's basically the same as saying houses in New
| York are much larger than those in Paris, because you're
| comparing all of New York _State_ including housing in Buffalo
| etc with the 20 arrondissements of central Paris.
|
| > _Even more striking is that more people in Tokyo live in
| detached houses compared to apartments (30%) than in New York
| (16.3%) and Paris (12.3%)._
|
| I'm pretty sure this "striking" fact is an artifact of including
| a whole lotta suburbs, exurbs and farms in the Tokyo stats. Very
| few people live in detached houses within the 23-ku.
|
| TL;DR: Housing in greater Tokyo is indeed affordable, but as
| anyone who's seen a "one-room mansion" (read: tiny studio) can
| attest, it's rarely spacious.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I don't have numbers, but I doubt that 12.3% of people living
| in Paris _proper_ (the 20 arrondissements) live in detached
| houses. Yes, there are villas in the city, but they 're
| extremely rare. I don't see them housing more than 1 in 10
| people.
|
| So their numbers seem indeed dubious.
|
| Edit: I found official stats (French only):
| https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/2011101?geo=DEP-75#chif...
| Table "LOG T2". "maisons" = "house", "appartements" =
| "apartments"
|
| In 2019, less than 1% of housing stock were "houses".
| diziet wrote:
| Okutama, Tokyo is part of "Tokyo Metropolis".
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okutama,_Tokyo . The furthest
| I've been is Hachioji, which was about 1 hour by train from
| 23-ku. Hachioji is roughly half as far as Okutama. In New York
| City terms, getting to Hicksville, NY takes about 1 hour by
| train. For Bay Area folks, both Dublin / Pleasanton and Bay
| Point / Pittsburg ... or even Antioch are about an hour away by
| BART.
| oneoff786 wrote:
| Is 1 hour by train a reasonable metric to use given the
| differences in trains
| marak830 wrote:
| I'd say yes, an hour to work - while long - is pretty
| acceptable to most. Many caveats here such as reliability
| of transport etc but it does come down to time.
| mdorazio wrote:
| An hour commute to work is most definitely _not_
| acceptable to most, _especially_ post-pandemic. Median
| commute in the US is about 26 minutes and many people are
| now used to working from home some or all of the time.
| Hour-long commutes are outliers for a relatively small
| percentage of people in a small number of cities.
| marak830 wrote:
| Fair enough, my point of view may be skewed by living
| here for quite awhile
| ghaff wrote:
| Possibly. But close to an hour commute (or more) is
| probably the reality most places if you work downtown in
| a city and don't live within the city limits. Even within
| NYC getting to the financial district from Brooklyn or
| Staten Island is probably hitting close to that.
|
| Average commutes in the US are brought down by urbanites
| who live close to the office and suburbanites who live a
| modest drive away from an office park.
| mdorazio wrote:
| The data does not support your statement. For example:
| https://www.geotab.com/time-to-commute/
|
| Sure, if you cherry pick the worst possible commutes in
| the worst commuting cities you're going to find pockets
| of ~1hr commuters, but the broader claim simply isn't
| true and is perpetuated by people who are themselves
| trying to justify their overly long commutes. The large
| majority of people value their time too much to put up
| with commutes over about 40 minutes.
| ghaff wrote:
| That data for people commuting into cities seems pretty
| consistent with what I said. A minority have a less than
| 30 minute commute. A significant majority aren't more
| than an hour. I certainly agree that more than an hour
| isn't common though 10-15% isn't nothing. I did that
| part-time for about 18 months and it really isn't
| sustainable.
|
| Also presumably the number goes up if you exclude people
| who live within the metro whereas I specifically excluded
| that group.
| rgmerk wrote:
| I think there's an adage of urban planning that the
| median commute is always 30 minutes independent of how
| much transport infrastructure you build.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| yes, because we are measuring how satisfied the people will
| be with their living arrangements not how fast the trains
| are. As a person I don't care if the train is fast or slow
| I care how long it takes me to get home - if it takes me 1
| hour to get home with a slow train or 1 hour with a fast
| train it is the same to me - I live 1 hour from work.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Almost. Take reliability of trains into account too. If
| you are physically closer you have backup options (buses,
| other trains, bicycle perhaps!). Sydney has such slow
| transport that if you need to make connections it can be
| quicker to cycle the same distance. The UK people live
| not just in suburbs but entirely different cities to
| commute to London, but using trains that if they go wrong
| - and they will - it'll be long and/or expensive commute
| that day.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| > Take reliability of trains into account too.
|
| I think it's fair to say that Japan is the country in the
| world with the most reliable trains
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| Switzerland, but Japan is up there indeed!
| [deleted]
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| > Sydney has such slow transport that if you need to make
| connections it can be quicker to cycle the same distance.
|
| I believe that would come under the time to get home
| calculation. Aside from that all these other points would
| seem to be to Japan's benefit.
| bombcar wrote:
| 1 hour is a fair measure in my opinion, the average commute
| time is about 30 minutes in the US:
|
| > In 2019, the average one-way commute in the United States
| increased to a new high of 27.6 minutes [27.6]
|
| Which would mean the reasonable "maximum" is going to be
| about an hour one-way. Some will commute further but it'll
| drop off very fast. You can actually see it in action if
| you graph house prices on a map around an urban area; once
| you are outside commuting distance from the center prices
| start going down. People will still commute to the edges of
| the metro, but the numbers who want to decreases.
|
| And a train can create "pockets" further away by mileage.
|
| [27.6] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-
| releases/2021/one-way-...
| franciscop wrote:
| Not fair comparison, Okutama is literally in the middle of a
| mountain range with no much around, but you can get there
| combining a bunch of express trains in a very straightforward
| combination, which seems pretty hand-picked. Hicksville to
| NYC is 56km by car. Okutama from Tokyo Station is 96km.
| diziet wrote:
| I actually compared train-to-train distance to Hachioji,
| not Okutama.
| citrusybread wrote:
| > it uses Tokyo Metropolis (Tokyo-to, basically "Tokyo State",
| area 2,194.07 km2) for comparisons, not central Tokyo (23-ku,
| aka the former Tokyo City, area 619 km2). So it's basically the
| same as saying houses in New York are much larger than those in
| Paris, because you're comparing all of New York State including
| housing in Buffalo etc with the 20 arrondissements of central
| Paris.
|
| As others have said, difference between NYC and NYS is much
| much larger than that...
|
| But for reference, Ottawa, Canada, is one of the largest cities
| in Canada by area at 2778 km^2. But the Greater Toronto Area,
| what many call "Toronto", is ~7000km^2 and only has ~6 million
| people...
|
| Toronto proper is only 630km^2, with 3 million people. The
| scale here is reasonable, Tokyo has excellent transportation
| options that make it realistic to live anywhere in that region.
| lhl wrote:
| Agreed, this article is basing it's numbers off of this
| (linked) study: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/airdrive-
| images/wp-conten...
|
| If you view page 6 and 7, you'll see why these numbers are
| largely irrelevant since the boundaries for all the "cities"
| except NYC (which is the 5 boroughs) include the large swathes
| of suburbs/exurbs around the city.
|
| A study looking at 23-wards vs Inner London vs City of Paris
| would be a lot more informative.
|
| BTW, the writer of the article seems to simply be using these
| numbers to push his view that real estate prices will continue
| to go up in Tokyo. Housing Japan, a Japanese real estate agency
| that caters to foreign investors shows pricing for apartments
| in the 23 wards have been on a pretty crazy upwards trajectory
| [1], but 1) this is denominated in JPY pricing, and the
| exchange rate has tanked by 35% vs USD this past year, and of
| course, I'd be much more interested in seeing that post
| revisited in 2023...
|
| [1] https://housingjapan.com/blog/tokyo-residential-real-
| estate-...
| nostrebored wrote:
| JPY is poised for an astronomical fall. The government cannot
| both keep servicing debt and buoying the currency . Those
| houses will appreciate in value JPY denominated and crater in
| terms of USD.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| So....living in Japan with a USD income we should actually
| wait longer to pull the trigger on buying real estate? I
| was already sizing up properties across the country,
| putting together a plan for my family to buy properties for
| rental income because they are already cheap...
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| New York "metro" is always tricky. All of New Jersey,
| southern Connecticut, Staten Island, the Bronx, outer
| Brooklyn, outer Queens: Who the hell cares. Yes, I will be
| down-voted for this comment! My point: Defining inner city
| NYC that is wealthy requires some care and consideration. All
| the interesting "real estate action" happens in a very small
| radius from midtown Manhattan.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Japan also has a declining population, extremely low
| immigration, and minimal foreign housing purchases.
|
| These are the opposite factors of what urban US is facing.
|
| Even Tokyo metro area population has been in decline and is
| forecast to decline, as NYCs continues growing.
|
| Tokyo housing-space-per-resident being higher is probably also
| an artifact of lower household formation / childrearing than
| western cities.
|
| That said Tokyo has different zoning which allows for smaller
| apartment units than NYC/SF/etc and should be applauded for
| that.
| marak830 wrote:
| And the apartment as a comparison to houses doesn't help much,
| as Japanese houses tend to be smaller than western. Source is
| me, I've been living in Japan for over 10 years now.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Western being what exactly? Houses are rarely spacious in a
| lot of what qualifies as 'west'. You can't compare The
| Netherlands and Belgium with Germany, let alone the US.
| marak830 wrote:
| Sorry I should have specified, I was referring to Aussie
| homes(my home country) or US. My bad.
|
| But even then I'd probably guess Japanese are smaller. I
| have not looked at the numbers and will go look now though,
| I should have before commenting.
|
| Edit: you're right(as I had assumed being familiar),
| Netherlands average from a quick search is roughly on par.
| allturtles wrote:
| Your point that we have to be careful about the basis of
| comparison is well-taken, but your analogy is not sound. New
| York state is 141,000 km2, it's over 1/3 the size of all of
| Japan.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > because you're comparing all of New York State including
| housing in Buffalo etc with the 20 arrondissements of central
| Paris.
|
| But isn't the entire Tokyo Metropolis under an hour by mass
| transit? That's a far cry from Buffalo. Like, Buffalo cannot
| commute to NYC by anything other than private aircraft.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Technically Tokyo Metropolis includes some islands several
| hours _by plane_ south of Tokyo, including Iwo Jima of WW2
| fame. Their combined population is only a rounding error
| compared to the mainland though.
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| If you replace "Buffalo" with "an hour out of NYC" his point
| still stands.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Except that housing an hour out of NYC seems to be more
| expensive than the housing the article talks about.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| I don't know - an hour out of Penn Station takes you as
| far as places like Wyandanch on Long Island with the
| LIRR, or Stamford, CT with the MNR.
| ascagnel_ wrote:
| And in the other direction, an hour out of Penn Station
| can get you about halfway across northern NJ even with
| extensive train traffic.
| avn2109 wrote:
| The theoretical travel time might be an hour, but we
| can't realistically compare the travel time variances
| between MetroNorth and Japanese trains.
|
| Going to Stamford is maybe like 1 hour, with frequent
| catastrophic delays and problems, such that we can maybe
| model it as like 1.5hr +/- 20 minutes, whereas an hour on
| a Japanese train is like 1.01hr +/- 30 seconds.
|
| Wildly different user experiences.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| OK sure, but if you want to talk about wildly different
| user experiences, you also need to consider the
| likelihood of being physically rammed into the carriage
| by the platform staff so the doors can close when riding
| a rush-hour train out of Shinjuku station or whatever.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| I specifically looked at Stamford when I wrote that.
| Tokyo is in the 350-600sq ft range by the article. You
| can currently get a fairly spartan 600 sq ft in Stamford
| for the price listed (one vacancy). That's more than the
| average the article cites, but in the same range.
|
| After all, you'd have to compare the outskirts of
| Stamford with the outsirkts of Tokyo.
| saalweachter wrote:
| Well, yeah, if you take the commuter rail line _along the
| densely populated coastline_.
|
| If you take the Harlem Line up to the middle of nowhere,
| you can get to Katonah in an hour on the express trains
| during peak hours.
| iterati wrote:
| New Jersey and Long Island are not more expensive than
| what the article talks about.
| saalweachter wrote:
| Technically NYC commuter rail goes out about 1.5hrs.
| [deleted]
| bluepizza wrote:
| Aren't the backstreets of the less central ku filled with
| houses? I mean Setagaya, Ota, Edogawa, Adachi, Suginami, etc.
|
| I used to pick stations at random to arrive at and explore, and
| what I always saw was endless houses. Only the areas closer to
| bigger stations had manshon.
|
| I think you might be conflating Shibuya/Roppongi/Shinjuku with
| less central parts of the 23 special wards.
| wst_ wrote:
| Those are huge wards by themselves. There are plenty of busy
| as well as residential places. For example, Setagaya-ku -
| stations like Sangenjaya, Jiyugaoka or Futakotamagawa are far
| cry from the quiet residential areas. There's a lot of any
| kind of housing there - bigger, smaller, houses and mansions
| alike.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| even in Shinjuku there are cheap houses if you look. My
| friend rents an old house with renovated interior in
| Shimoochiai for what I thought was surprisingly cheap
| logicalmonster wrote:
| Outside of either aggressive capitalist desire to continuously
| lower wages or some groups wanting to destroy Japanese culture,
| I've never understood why there was such an extreme panic by some
| about Japan's lower birth rates to the point that they urged mass
| immigration there.
|
| A stabilizing population on an island with limited space seems
| like a good thing. A little more space opens up for living and
| real-estate prices might become more favorable. Maybe there's
| room for more parks and other things that make life good. When
| conditions become more favorable, people will be able to
| reproduce more.
|
| We see in the animal kingdom the predator-prey cycle that
| population takes care of itself. When there's too many rabbits or
| deer, there's no cause for concern: the plentiful food supply
| means that wolves and foxes will be able to reproduce more and
| take care of the situation. When there's too many wolves/foxes
| and the situation reverses, the scarce food supply means that the
| predators aren't able to flourish and the rabbits and deer are
| able to reproduce more.
|
| I'd say that the human desire for reproduction might work in the
| same way, only instead of prey, maybe real-estate prices and
| quality of life is the cyclical variable to note.
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| GDP can't go up without strong reproduction and/or immigration.
| The economy stagnates and government debt becomes massive,
| which is what you see with Japan.
|
| The scary thing is that this is something the USA and lots of
| other countries are headed towards as well.
|
| https://dailyinfographic.com/government-debt-by-country
| mrep wrote:
| GDP can grow with a stable population if your Real gross
| domestic product per capita is growing which it has been for
| the USA [0]. Japans has barely grown for the past 30 years
| which is their big problem [1].
|
| [0]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA
|
| [1]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NYGDPPCAPKDJPN
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| What do you think the cause is for the differences? I
| strongly feel that a lot of that latter "strength" for the
| USA chart after 2009 was made up of money printing.
|
| https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL
|
| https://inflationchart.com/gdp-in-m3
|
| I guess we will see if USA can continue up only. I have my
| doubts. Fertility rate needs to be 2.1 to remain stable and
| we dipped below 2.0 around 2010 and are at 1.64 now (Japan
| is 1.34). The previous US administration clown show also
| drastically cut immigration.
|
| https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/06/global-decline-of-
| fer...
| logicalmonster wrote:
| > The previous US administration clown show also
| drastically cut immigration.
|
| What if restricting immigration for a time is what is
| needed to start to stabilize the birth rate which
| ultimately takes care of the economy?
|
| Many Americans aren't focusing on making babies because
| they're hopeless about their future and ever having a
| home so they put off thinking about having a family until
| as late as possible. What if a more modest amount of
| immigration (lowering demand for housing) helps put home
| ownership and hope for the future into more peoples'
| reach? A little reduction in real-estate prices might
| piss off some boomers who have a lot of wealth locked
| into their home, but these aren't the people who are
| going to be reproducing.
|
| Cause and effect are sometimes related in unexpected
| ways, but this chain of thinking about this problem seems
| entirely simple and rational.
| triceratops wrote:
| I suspect that home prices and ownership rates don't
| explain birth rates. Who says you can't rent and have
| children? A large part of the world already does it.
|
| Birth rates go down with economic development, and the
| growth of freedoms and opportunities for women. It's a
| tale seen everywhere. And all the other fun stuff and
| distractions available for young people today - dating
| apps, video games, pop culture, avocado toast, too many
| hobbies to name - competes with child-rearing for time,
| attention, and money. Even as a parent, I sometimes long
| for a more carefree life. I'm sure a lot of people see
| their peers with children and decide, rationally, to not
| pursue parenthood.
|
| (This is without even getting into the climate crisis).
| helen___keller wrote:
| I think there a few flaws with your thoughts
|
| > A stabilizing population on an island with limited space
| seems like a good thing. A little more space opens up for
| living and real-estate prices might become more favorable.
| Maybe there's room for more parks and other things that make
| life good. When conditions become more favorable, people will
| be able to reproduce more.
|
| Population density is not homogenous. Excluding pandemic era,
| the trend has been decreasing population density in the
| countryside and smaller cities, while more population moves to
| the big cities. In general, population size need not correlate
| for the average persons lived population density.
|
| > I'd say that the human desire for reproduction might work in
| the same way, only instead of prey, maybe real-estate prices
| and quality of life is the cyclical variable to note.
|
| This is likely true on the extremes to some degree, but I
| haven't seen much evidence that this is a driving force of
| population dynamics.
|
| > I've never understood why there was such an extreme panic by
| some about Japan's lower birth rates to the point that they
| urged mass immigration there.
|
| This is generally because the population is not stabilizing,
| it's on the verge of collapsing. If fertility rate rises
| "naturally" in the future, as you suggest, then it's obviously
| not an issue. But maintaining a 1.3 or lower fertility rate
| indefinitely will result in an exponential decay of population
| which could itself result in a decline of living standards. For
| example, if the population decreases too much to support a high
| speed rail system so these are abandoned as unprofitable.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| >> I'd say that the human desire for reproduction might work
| in the same way, only instead of prey, maybe real-estate
| prices and quality of life is the cyclical variable to note.
|
| >This is likely true on the extremes to some degree, but I
| haven't seen much evidence that this is a driving force of
| population dynamics.
|
| In South Korea, young people are struggling to find
| affordable places to live, to the extent that many people
| live with their parents well into their 30ies. Coincidently,
| they also have one of the lowest birth rates in the world.
|
| In my city, I see a lot of people who first build a house or
| buy an appartement, and then have kids, in their 30ies,
| because they can't afford a big enough place before that.
|
| As housing prices rise everywhere, it takes longer and longer
| for people to be able to afford a place big enough for a
| family. Of course people then delay having kids, and many end
| up not having kids at all.
| spullara wrote:
| The birth rate is so low around the world that we may see peak
| population by 2060 (worst case) and then an exponential
| decline. Quality of life will decrease as the number of old
| people drastically out numbers the young people.
| GolDDranks wrote:
| For a data point: (admittedly, barely) inside Tokyo 23 wards, 15
| min walk to nearest station, 70 sqm (753 sqft) 3LDK (3 bedrooms
| and a living-dining-kitchen). 140000 jpy / month. (945 usd at the
| current rate.) I think it's a reasonable deal. Less or similar
| than I would pay for a similar flat in my native Helsinki,
| Finland.
| konichi-value wrote:
| This is a follow up article to a lot of questions on this thread:
| How Tokyo Avoided the Affordable Housing Crisis:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32894963
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I think measuring per person is pretty misleading.
|
| A single person living in a 25m^2 appartment would be quite
| cramped.
|
| A family with two young kids living in 100m^2 is pretty spacious.
|
| So if you look at living space per person, then societies with
| smaller household sizes will appear to have more living space per
| person.
|
| so if you measure that, you also have to compare how many people
| are in households as well.
| jstrong wrote:
| > A family with two young kids living in 100m^2 is pretty
| spacious.
|
| depends on your perspective, I guess! that sounds horribly
| cramped to me.
| rdsubhas wrote:
| It's not about perspective. Both average to 25m2 per person,
| but they are vastly, unambiguously different.
|
| In a 100m2 home: 3x15m2 bedrooms, 25m2 living room, 10m2
| kitchen and you still got 20m2 left.
|
| It's no comparison to a single 25m2 apartment where all these
| functions have to fit.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Well, to a point. If I live alone in a big city I don't
| necessarily need a kitchen at all. However, cooking scales
| more efficiently than eating out so I'll definitely want
| one for my family.
| jstrong wrote:
| In that sense, I guess a 100cm2 apartment is "pretty
| spacious" compared to a 25cm2 one. My point was that a
| family of four living in a 100m2 apartment is going to feel
| cramped.
| bombcar wrote:
| Yeah, a more accurate measurement would be "baseline + X" - you
| don't really need to go above the average household size, but
| you can fit people in way denser than 25m^2 (270 sq ft) if they
| share common areas. The average dorm room is 230 sq ft (with a
| roommate!) but the dorm provides common areas and other
| amenities.
|
| Another thing to consider when comparing countries is what is
| considered "living space" and what is not - some areas have
| large porches that are not considered "living space" even
| though they serve similar functions to what a living room might
| in other parts of the world.
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| It depends on how you measure those 25m^2; I lived in a
| studio in Copenhagen for a while and my 25m^2 included the
| common areas / roof garden etc. Private space was around
| 16-20m^2, and I am being generous here.
| bombcar wrote:
| Yeah, so many things go into it that it's hard to just
| compare numbers, you really have to _live_ it to compare.
| quesera wrote:
| > A single person living in a 25m^2 appartment would be quite
| cramped. > A family with two young kids living in 100m^2 is
| pretty spacious.
|
| I would argue very much the opposite! - 1
| person in 25m2 (270 ft2) is comfortable enough in a city, and
| if your hobbies are small - 4 people in 100m2 (1076 ft2)
| can definitely be cramped
| JTBooth wrote:
| Agree - I moved from 40m2 alone to 60m2 with my wife, and the
| experience is much better. We still have one sink, one toilet,
| one bathtub, one washing machine. Her space takes up maybe
| 10m2. The free walking-around space probably went from 5m2 to
| 25m2.
| AtreidesTyrant wrote:
| I would love to stay there, but keeping western hours for your
| job would be very difficult. Not to mention the dislike of
| foreigners
| InfiniteRand wrote:
| Better than New York, Paris and London is a low bar
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| It is a big modern industrious city, what should it be compared
| to?
| rubslopes wrote:
| Why these people think I will subscribe to their mailing list
| before I even read the third sentence?
| tagami wrote:
| Tokyo and Osaka are reversed on the map
| yrgulation wrote:
| I dont know how accurate this report is, but i do wish western
| europe was as well organised and clean as japan. Many, if not
| all, west european capitals are a mess with poor living
| conditions with no signs of improvement.
| athenot wrote:
| Purely as a visitor, Zurich definitely felt cleaner and better
| organized than other cities in western Europe.
| yrgulation wrote:
| An outlier indeed. Still feels a bit boring, but it ticks all
| the marks in my initial comment. I think europe strayed far
| from its path. We should look at japan and east asia
| (singapore, south korea) and reflect on why they look so much
| more advanced and well maintained compared to our countries.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| there is a maps-and-data company in Berkeley, California (urban
| planners) that maintains detailed and mostly-current information
| on occupancy for all of California; both renters and homes;
| unending policy battles behind-the-scenes about covid-19 and
| eviction very much at the fore. ( _trivia_ it is in the same
| physical building as the old After Dark screensaver company, so
| long ago)
| Overtonwindow wrote:
| I spent a month in Tokyo in 29 Square meters it was painfully
| small, and expensive. It was the best I could find. These numbers
| are deeply suspicious.
| diceduckmonk wrote:
| The standard rental contract in Japan is not 1-year, but
| 2-years. For these engagements, as with employment, it's about
| consistency, predictability and long-term commitment.
|
| One-month is ultra-short by Japanese standards. The rental
| inventory is distinct from regular apartments. This is
| effectively a hotel.
| amrocha wrote:
| Kinda, it's 2 years but you can usually leave anytime after 6
| months with no fee. After 2 years you need to sign a new
| contract, which means new fees etc
| davidkuennen wrote:
| As someone being in Tokyo right now chatting with locals about
| this topic it's just not generally true or comparable to other
| cities.
|
| Sure there are parts of Tokyo that are cheaper, but Tokyo is
| gigantic. All the places that "matter" with reasonably fast
| commute are very expensive and small.
| marak830 wrote:
| I live in fujisawa, takes me about 30 minutes to get to
| Yokohama which is pretty damn major.
|
| House prices here are quite reasonable, nice distance to the
| ocean for the weekends. I'm considering buying and building a
| house in the next year or two.
| [deleted]
| diceduckmonk wrote:
| > locals about this topic
|
| Are the locals foreigners or Japanese? The set of housing
| options are different between the two. There's an implicit
| price premium and threshold on the units with landlords
| receptive to foreigners. The cheaper accommodations are not
| going to be available especially if tenant isn't fluent in the
| language.
|
| > All the places that "matter" with reasonably fast commute are
| very expensive and small.
|
| I live 3 minutes commute to Shibuya, and my rent is half my
| rent in an outer borough of NYC. Brand new lofty unit designed
| by a famous architect. Space efficiency-wise, it's equal if not
| greater. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison to just look at
| floorspace, since Japan has lots of infrastructure such as
| actually convenient stores which means people don't need to own
| as much household items.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| How much do you have to pay in monthly housing costs with the
| inclusion of utilities and amenities?
| TedShiller wrote:
| Then why doesn't everyone just live in Tokyo? You just got
| your answer.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| Should also be noted that Tokyo is one of the few major
| metropolises in the world where the price of housing has not
| meaningfully increased in real terms since 2000[1]. The Japanese
| constitution drastically limits zoning, building and land use
| restrictions. As a result the city of Tokyo builds more new
| housing than all of California or England.[2]
|
| (And no, this isn't because of Japan's demographics. While Japan
| as a whole is stagnating, the population of Tokyo is still
| increasing as fast as London, New York or the Bay Area because of
| high rural to urban migration.)
|
| Tokyo is very much proof that NIMBY reforms are the solution to
| the housing crisis in the West. Deregulating the ability of
| property developers to build new housing will incontrevirtibly
| increase supply, blunt runaway housing costs, and make dense
| cities with high economic opportunity affordable for the middle
| class.
|
| [1]https://www.vox.com/2016/8/8/12390048/san-francisco-
| housing-... [2]https://www.sightline.org/2021/03/25/yes-other-
| countries-do-...
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| >(And no, this isn't because of Japan's demographics. While
| Japan as a whole is stagnating, the population of Tokyo is
| still increasing as fast as London, New York or the Bay Area
| because of high rural to urban migration.)
|
| Tokyo had negative population growth in 2022 and is forecasted
| to continue decreasing in population. That said, these
| differences existed before Tokyo's population stagnated.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| This is my random personal post: Last weekend, while riding my
| bicyle between Shinjuku station and Shinagawa station, I was
| stunned by the density of buildings on major roads. It felt
| like a one hour bicycle ride surounded by non-stop 10-story
| buildings... forever(!). My point: A 10-story building is not
| impressive, but 500 of them on the same road is incredible. The
| wall of concrete is hard to understand in Tokyo before you see
| it with your own eyes.
|
| Dutchies/Belgies: Is anywhere similar where you live?
| [deleted]
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Good point. One small issues: I think your first sentence is
| missing a negative or you want to change "increased" to
| "decreased"
| dcolkitt wrote:
| Thanks!
| haroldp wrote:
| Here's an archive of the FT piece to which the Vox article
| refers:
|
| https://archive.ph/pVrex
|
| Lots of additional detail.
| runnerup wrote:
| California: 1 new home per 354 citizens per year (confirmed
| using primary US government sources).
|
| Tokyo "city": 1 new home per 96 citizens per year (unconfirmed
| but reasonable).
|
| Tokyo "metro": 1 new home per 113 citizens per year (confirmed
| using primary Japanese government sources)
|
| I figured it would compare best if we translated this to "per
| capita" form. Eyeballing the FRED source[3], looks like
| California permits 8,000-10,000 new home units per month, or
| 110,000 per year for a state of 39 million people. This has
| been (relatively) stable for quite a few years.
|
| The sightline blog quotes WSJ which asserted that Tokyo city
| built 145,000 new homes in 2018. I was unable to find the
| source for the WSJ claims -- sightline.org claims that this is
| just the Tokyo City, not metropolitan, but WSJ makes no such
| distinction (conclusion is uncertain). However we do have some
| contextual numbers:
|
| Japan added 942,000 housing starts in 2018 according to
| Statista[0], whose numbers for 2020 and 2021 perfect match
| Japanese government numbers[1]. So "Tokyo's" housing starts
| accounted for 15% of national housing starts. 11% of Japan's
| population lives in Tokyo "city" and 29% of Japan's population
| lives in Tokyo "metro". Additionally, Tokyo "metro" ("National
| Capital Region" - Shou Du Quan ) added 327,128 homes in
| 2018[2], and this has also been relatively stable year-to-year.
| So "145,000" seems reasonable at least.
|
| 0: https://www.statista.com/statistics/667913/japan-
| dwellings-c...
|
| 1: https://www5.cao.go.jp/keizai3/getsurei-e/2022sep/4.pdf
|
| 2: https://www.lij.jp/pub_f/monthly_data/2019_11.pdf (p. 35,
| 4th column)
|
| 3: https://alfred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=B0kN
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Even though everyone wants to live in Tokyo, the same is true
| for hit real estate markets in other countries that it is being
| compared to. We aren't comparing Tokyo to Duluth.
|
| Lack of building codes like must have central heat or must have
| bathroom also can bring housing prices down.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Hat tip for "Duluth". If anyone is not famaliar, it is north-
| central United States:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth,_Minnesota
| F35Machinist wrote:
| Do you actually think the comment you replied to was
| complaining about requirements like central heat or
| bathrooms? NIMBYs will trot out every excuse and misdirection
| to avoid addressing the dire shortage of housing. This anti-
| growth mindset is a philosophy of death. I suspect that deep
| down, many want the world to end with them and are actually
| sabotaging efforts to solve societal issues out of some sort
| of Freudian death-drive.
| goostavos wrote:
| What in the -- Freudian death drive? I'd wager it's far
| more simple: run of the mill selfishness. NIMBYs want to
| keep the gravy train flowing while they're here. Increased
| housing stock threatens the currently astronomical prices
| and returns. NIMBYs are "anti-growth" because their
| pocketbook demands it.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| This isn't it. On the one hand, people acknowledge that
| transit resources, clean environment, water, electricity,
| don't grow on trees (and that trees are also nice). On
| the other hand, anyone who wants to control development
| at all is labelled as a NIMBY. Some of that is accurate,
| some of that is not. But I get it: you want your cake and
| you want to eat it also.
|
| Tokyo definitely has places without (a) toilets in your
| apartment (you have access to one in the same building
| though) and (b) places without showers in building
| (you'll have to use a bathhouse). The lack of heat might
| be annoying to some people, and the insulation isn't
| going to be good enough to let your electric space heater
| work very well (so get used to using a kotatsu). Now,
| using a kotatsu isn't bad, but it isn't super convenient.
| Danieru wrote:
| Tokyo's building codes do require bathrooms. Plus minimum
| sunshine for a room to count as a bedroom, along with
| shutters on all windows.
|
| What caught my eye about your comment is central heating.
| Japan in fact penalizes central heating. Not just not
| requiring it but going so far as to increase property taxes
| slightly.
|
| In Japan's case it is a desire to reduce energy intensity in
| a country dependent on energy imports.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| You wrote: <<Japan in fact penalizes central heating>>
|
| I belive it. Japan housing is so inefficient for a wealthly
| / highly industriaslied country: It is bizarre!
|
| I tried to Google about this topic, but I did not find
| anything. Can you provide a hint about your source?
| namdnay wrote:
| what do you mean by inefficient? japanese houses are
| remarkably energy-efficient for their climate. they are
| very breezy, which cuts down on AC use in the summer, and
| in winter you heat specific objects instead of the entire
| house
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| That really isn't true. A lot of older housing in Japan
| has really bad insulation, you are basically stuck with a
| kotatsu in the winter not by choice.
| ricktdotorg wrote:
| i took GP's comment of "heating specific objects" to mean
| an object like a kotatsu.
| dahfizz wrote:
| 32 square meters per person? That's 344 square feet. It's amazing
| to me people would choose to live in such a tiny space.
| nikanj wrote:
| To be fair, in the US people live in a cardboard box on the
| street
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| That's slightly larger that my very expensive apartment in
| Paris proper. I moved there from a bigger place when I broke up
| years ago and I'm surprised by how liveable it is. It's not big
| but it's mostly fine. For the time I spent there it seems like
| a good deal. Working from home was annoying when it was
| mandatory however.
| dark-star wrote:
| if you can't even tell where Tokyo and Osaka are on your maps,
| you probably shouldn't publish articles about Japan. Who knows
| what other numbers or diagrams are wrong there...
| diceduckmonk wrote:
| https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2323:_Modeling_St...
| thiago_fm wrote:
| The graph with many countries is ABSOLUTELY WRONG.
|
| It says with $1500 rent you can get a 140m2 or 1500 sqft
| apartment in Berlin. HAHA! MAYBE IN THE 90s.
|
| Not to mention that I'm willing to bet that less of 5% of housing
| in Berlin is 140m2 or higher. (might be 1% or less even)
| nikanj wrote:
| These often use average rents paid today. They tend to be much
| lower than average rents if you rent a home today.
|
| One of the main reasons why older people seem to think
| millennials are complaining about nothing: they locked in their
| rental rates back in the last millennia, and the laws generally
| only allow low-single-digit increases per year
| rgmerk wrote:
| Paris, London and New York - the key points of comparison -
| aren't exactly known for their spacious housing.
|
| One other point that many of the Tokyo fans don't acknowledge is
| how extraordinarily ugly the place is. Sure, it's clean (more
| than you can say for New York) but clearly nobody in Tokyo cares
| about what their house looks like from the outside. And I've
| never seen more miserable public parks in a developed country.
| tkgally wrote:
| I've been living in Tokyo and Yokohama since 1983 and am as
| much of a Tokyo fan as they get, and I readily acknowledge how
| ugly Japanese cities are in general. But after buying a house
| here twenty-three years ago, and comparing my experience with
| those of houseowners I know in the U.S., I have started to see
| some beauty in that ugliness.
|
| Many of the people I know in the U.S. live in attractive
| neighborhoods full of nice-looking houses and well-kept front
| yards. While some of that niceness is due to the owners' own
| initiative, much is the result of zoning restrictions,
| homeowner association rules, and the like.
|
| The only zoning restrictions on my house in Yokohama are limits
| on total floorspace and land coverage and fire and earthquake
| rules covering building design and materials. I can paint my
| house any color I want, pile whatever junk I want in my (tiny)
| yard, and hang whatever laundry I want from the balconies, and
| no one can or will say anything about it.
|
| As a result of this tolerant, low-regulation regime, the
| neighborhood I live in is, like most neighborhoods here, an
| unattractive mish-mash of mismatched houses and apartments in
| many styles and states of upkeep. If that's the price of
| (relative) freedom, I'm happy to pay it.
| franciscop wrote:
| I have to agree and disagree :)
|
| First, it's not clean, it's just different way of unclean and
| only during certain periods of the day. But during too many
| hours of the day in popular areas it's normal to see literal
| piles of trash on the street covered in rats, and in the
| morning with crows.
|
| On the other hand, there's no littering, virtually no
| homelessness (nor their encampments, etc) and finally no cars
| on the street, which makes the city look a lot cleaner.
|
| "Nobody in Tokyo cares about what their house looks like from
| the outside" => completely agree, my pet peeve here is that one
| of the best towns geographically speaking of Japan is probably
| the ugliest town I've seen in my life in a 1st world country
| (Kawaguchiko, with the beautiful lake, lush forest and Fuji San
| nearby).
|
| "never seen more miserable public parks" again have to agree,
| the median local park is taken out of a horror movie. Though
| there _are* a bunch of very, very beautiful ones!_
| bluepizza wrote:
| > But during too many hours of the day in popular areas it's
| normal to see literal piles of trash on the street covered in
| rats, and in the morning with crows.
|
| Apart from the worst parts of Roppongi on a Monday morning, I
| have never ever seen this.
| franciscop wrote:
| Trash days 5~8am, normal days in any place with many
| restaurants 11pm~8am basically (Shibuya, Ebisu, Shinjuku,
| Ikebukuro, etc).
| marak830 wrote:
| That would be more attributed to the multiple day trash
| picking depending on which type, though right?
|
| I mean Tuesday: burnable waste, wed cardboard, Thurs
| clothes and Fri other, will tend to have trash in the
| designated areas, on each of those days.
|
| Edit:spelling (Note:days and trash types differ a lot per
| area, but it's a good generalisation based off of my
| location).
| franciscop wrote:
| That's one thing for sure, but I attribute it most to the
| lack of dumpsters. I am not sure why they were banned,
| the trash cans supposedly because of terrorism, but the
| larger containers/dumpsters would make the city so much
| cleaner and better.
|
| Tip: when there's a typhoon, restaurants close and
| there's no trash on the street, the rats invade nearby
| shops looking desperately for food:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkpV_fCeuIE
| bombcar wrote:
| To be fair to Tokyo I doubt there's a major city in the
| _world_ that doesn 't have rats unless rats can't live in
| a super hot desert or frozen tundra.
|
| It's a matter of how contained/controlled/visible they
| are.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Calgary and Edmonton.
| bombcar wrote:
| Nice, ratatouille BTFO: https://www.alberta.ca/albertas-
| rat-control-program.aspx
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > On the other hand, there's no littering, virtually no
| homelessness (nor their encampments, etc) and finally no cars
| on the street, which makes the city look a lot cleaner.
|
| Last time I visited Tokyo in 2016 there was clearly an
| encampment at the Ueno park. And that wasn't the first time I
| saw an encampment in Japan (visiting Tokyo in 2008 I saw a
| few in Tokyo and Osaka). However, Japanese homeless
| encampments are always very clean and well organized. It's a
| completely different feel from the states (even if they
| definitely exist).
| franciscop wrote:
| That's why I said virtually; in Tokyo you know where you
| saw one at some point as a curiosity. In many European
| cities just walking around aimlessly you have high chances
| of seeing some homeless people. In SF I had to literally
| jump over homeless' people stuff to walk down multiple
| streets in my last visit.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I wasn't looking for encampments in Japan but found them
| anyways. Ueno train station and the park behind it is
| obviously a high traffic destination. And in Osaka, we
| were just walking around randomly. Homelessness is common
| and visible enough that to say it virtually doesn't exist
| is not really accurate.
| pezezin wrote:
| Not just Tokyo, but the whole of Japan. I live in Aomori, I
| have traveled quite a bit around the country, and I haven't
| seen yet a single city that wasn't extremely ugly. I have asked
| many Japanese people, and they just don't care.
| aikinai wrote:
| I live in and love Japan, and after many years have also
| gotten used to the general ugliness and just enjoy the
| beautiful parts when I can, but turning off the Japanese
| filter I've developed, good god this is so true.
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| Can you post examples of this ugliness? I've never been to
| Japan and am curious. I had never heard of this.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Pick a random spot in any suburb of Tokyo in Google Maps
| Street View and start exploring. Here's one:
|
| Gui Hu Zhong Yang Tong riShang Dian Jie
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/9yY4Ncb5oM3hXqLY6
|
| It's not particularly hideous by Tokyo (or world)
| standards, it's just exactly what was described earlier, a
| random mishmash of houses and shops in various states of
| repair.
| jonpurdy wrote:
| You've just linked to a small, walkable street with slow
| traffic that has multiple food and shopping options mixed
| with medium density residential. Zooming out it looks
| like a quick walk to a metro station and multiple parks
| nearby. Not to mention how safe these areas are.
|
| The random mishmash of houses and shops is exactly the
| type of place that makes walking viable negating the need
| for a car (and the expense and waste of space storing
| one).
|
| I wish I could find neighbourhoods like those found in
| many Japanese and Korean cities; they're very small and
| hard to find even in Toronto and SF (and not really
| comparable anyway).
| rgmerk wrote:
| Not disagreeing with any of that but it's still
| incredibly ugly.
|
| Just a planter box or two would be a massive improvement!
| no_time wrote:
| Having the powerlines underground would improve it a lot.
| Other than that I wouldn't call it particularly ugly.
| kipchak wrote:
| I don't think it's pretty, but I somewhat enjoy this sort
| of look.
|
| It reminds me a bit of a compressed version of older,
| less affluent northeastern towns, where buildings are a
| mish mash of styles and designs. It's an overused term,
| but it gives a sense of character or that it's a discrete
| place with it's own history. This building is a good
| example.
|
| https://goo.gl/maps/4ExAzUnFJmez6EPa7
| ErneX wrote:
| I've been to Tokyo and other cities in Japan, and I would
| gladly trade what you consider ugly for their
| cleanliness.
|
| I live in Barcelona and not even Gaudi's architecture can
| distract you from the amount of dog feces and piss that
| are rampant in this city, plus a considerably lack of
| cleaning in recent years for some reason.
| monting wrote:
| You folks ought to spend some time in Taiwan. I'm in Tokyo now,
| was in TW for a couple of years prior. Tokyo is extremely
| beautiful in comparison. (I'm Taiwanese Canadian)
| twobitshifter wrote:
| These statistics would be much more useful if the median had been
| used for prices and floor areas. These are both long tailed
| distributions, so the average is skewed. I would wager many of
| the "unexpected" results are due to this effect.
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