[HN Gopher] Nascar driver stuns to qualify for championship with...
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Nascar driver stuns to qualify for championship with GameCube move
Author : adrian_mrd
Score : 1085 points
Date : 2022-10-31 20:40 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nintendolife.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nintendolife.com)
| dcist wrote:
| This is awesome. Reminds me of when Medvedev did a FIFA
| celebration after winning the 2021 US Open:
| https://www.cbssports.com/tennis/news/us-open-2021-daniil-me...
| mauvehaus wrote:
| "If it's stupid, but it works, it's not stupid."
|
| To be clear that wasn't just stupid. It took a lot of work to get
| into a place where it's worth having a go, and a heaping measure
| of luck to pull it off.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| "works at most once per car" is a caveat that should give you
| pause before concluding "it's not stupid." :)
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| "Works at most once per car" still isn't necessarily stupid
| if it's the last lap.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Not necessarily, but very likely. I used "give pause" very
| carefully.
| joshu wrote:
| Probably up there with The Pass: https://youtu.be/cBthxGThBkc
| (wait for it)
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| This one looks really unfair, leaving the track and gaining an
| advantage by short cutting through the turn.
| egorfine wrote:
| I'm getting to a point in life where I can't figure out what are
| they talking about: a game or a real-life racing. Or both.
| z9znz wrote:
| That's cute, but I suspect that kind of boldly foolish move would
| not be the kind of thing a team would appreciate, since it
| implies they can never count on what their driver will do.
|
| It was basically a Happy Gilmore hockey golf swing (which
| outperforms a regular golf swing when it works, but unfortunately
| is enough less reliable that it's not worth doing).
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| Sounds like the can count on their driver to understand a bit a
| damage to their car is well worth the championship points and
| press that comes from such a bold move.
| swader999 wrote:
| I imagine the car body will be retired to the NASCAR museum
| after this.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| The driver's job is to win the race. This was the last lap of
| the season if it didn't work. In the words of the SAS, who
| dares wins.
|
| Edit: I would be shocked if he doesn't get a hearty thank you
| from the crew and a bonus from the bosses.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Here's the onboard where you hear the team is very happy about
| it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27S42Y5km4I
|
| This is a one off thing. NASCAR is 100% gonna rule it out. And
| getting the car chewed up is pretty routine in NASCAR. I mean,
| it's not good to do it unnecessarily but this won't really
| raise eyebrows. The car was still driving and tracking fine
| afterwards, so it's probably just mangled body work.
| rzzzt wrote:
| Put roller skate wheels on the passenger side door for the
| next race!
| sokoloff wrote:
| The team was clearly celebrating in the pits. Their driver just
| put them back in the hunt to win the championship when they
| were otherwise a half-lap from being eliminated.
|
| I think they'll be plenty happy to put a new right side on it.
| ddoolin wrote:
| I work for a few NASCAR teams. They definitely appreciate it,
| all the way to the leadership. Everybody is wishing they
| thought of this first.
| thepasswordis wrote:
| He kept them in the series and likely secured millions and
| millions of dollars worth of ad impressions for their sponsors.
| brookst wrote:
| Competitive motor sports are all about winning. There are so
| many rules and regulations and inspections, and cheating is. .
| . well, not condoned exactly, but part of the game. If someone
| else does it it's an outrage, but if your driver does it and
| wins, ok.
| moron4hire wrote:
| In his interview after the race, he mentioned talking about it
| with the crew and they decided together to do it.
| pulse7 wrote:
| Now everyone will follow and then they will ban it...
| wnoise wrote:
| Wow, that's some atrocious grammar.
|
| Stunts? Stuns in order to? Does something stunning in order to?
| wingerlang wrote:
| Person eats (food) in order to be full.
|
| Driver stuns (everyone) in order to quality.
|
| It makes sense to me.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| How does that move even work? He takes the longest path around
| the turn, while dragging along the side of the wall.
| Nition wrote:
| The other guys aren't limited by power, they're limited by
| grip. The wall adds lots of friction, sure, but he also now has
| unlimited grip and therefore full power.
| function_seven wrote:
| Because he could go pedal to the metal while everyone else was
| limited in speed to negotiate the turn using only the measly
| traction from their tires.
|
| The path length is a bit longer, but his speed was so much more
| that the trade off was worth it.
| Jarwain wrote:
| He's going significantly faster than the other cars, since he
| doesn't have to slow down to try and maintain traction on the
| turn
| jefftk wrote:
| Reminds me of another example of video-game inspired tactics:
|
| _Just before he reached the end zone, with 17 seconds remaining,
| Stokley cut right at 90 degrees and ran across the field. Six
| seconds drained off the clock before, at last, he meandered
| across the goal line to score the winning touchdown. For certain
| football fans, the excitement of a last-minute comeback now
| commingled with the shock of the familiar: It 's hard to think of
| a better example of a professional athlete doing something so
| obviously inspired by the tactics of videogame football. When I
| caught up with Stokley by telephone a few weeks later, I asked
| him point-blank: "Is that something out of a videogame?" "It
| definitely is," Stokley said. "I think everybody who's played
| those games has done that" -- run around the field for a while at
| the end of the game to shave a few precious seconds off the
| clock. Stokley said he had performed that maneuver in a videogame
| "probably hundreds of times" before doing it in a real NFL game._
|
| https://www.wired.com/2010/01/ff-gamechanger/
| houtanb wrote:
| Here's a video of the Stokely touchdown:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPamV6LsV8
| baby wrote:
| People have been doing that in football in Europe forever. I
| remember a number of old world cup games completely ruined by
| people running the clock.
| eckesicle wrote:
| In the Euro 2004, Denmark and Sweden would both go on to
| qualify at Italy's expense if the result of the game was 2-2.
|
| Of course, the score ended up being just that towards the end
| of the game, and then the players on both teams just stood
| still and passed the ball between themselves running down the
| last 8 minutes or so of the clock.
|
| https://youtu.be/9kgJNL_uuHI
| pfortuny wrote:
| This was much worse (I saw it on TV), and the reason why
| the last two matches in the qualifiers are played at the
| same time:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijon
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I was going to say, if you're not at risk of getting tackled
| and you're ahead it makes sense to stall.
|
| I do believe in football (soccer for americans) a referee
| will intervene if players are obviously stalling (e.g. by not
| playing, or the goalkeeper just holding onto the ball) but
| they can just go back and forth for a bit.
|
| Probably also happens in boxing and other time related
| sports.
| dereg wrote:
| I love this clip so much - I pulled it off so many times in
| Need For Speed but games like Gran Turismo always nerfed to
| move.
|
| There are so many moves that were obvious in video games but
| (bafflingly, to a kid like me) were never adopted until much,
| much later like:
|
| * NFL - Going for it on 4th down
|
| * NFL - QB spamming scramble moves (w/ Michael Vick)
|
| * NBA - Spamming 3 pointers (w/ Steph Curry)
| svnpenn wrote:
| > I love this clip so much
|
| what clip?
| zerocrates wrote:
| By context they must be talking about the clip of the
| Nascar driver riding the wall that's the subject of the
| article.
| dereg wrote:
| Sorry - I was talking about the clip of the video game
| move:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3yNc5EasW8
| bmitc wrote:
| Do Nascar drivers develop neck problems? I know it's a
| joke that all they do is turn left and that racing is in
| general tough on the neck, but it does seem like they'd
| almost always been veering their head to the left over
| hours long races.
| Shocka1 wrote:
| Some tracks are more hard on them than others, but I
| haven't heard much about any negative affects in NASCAR
| besides feeling dizzy or off balance for several hours
| after a race. Open wheel drivers commonly pull over 5 G's
| though in corners. Their heads are supported, but I would
| think your brain getting pulled to one side with that
| much force for over an hour can't be a net positive.
|
| Not speaking negatively about it of course - to each
| their own. I raced Superbikes for eight years and you
| might as well throw risk tolerance completely out the
| window with that kind of racing.
| pp19dd wrote:
| Most are ovals, yes, but in those there's also banking
| involved, 30+ degrees in corners, so the idea of just
| turning left is missing a very important nuance to it.
| Outer tires are inflated more, usually 10+ PSI.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASCAR_tracks#Track
| _ta...
| criddell wrote:
| The drivers wear a head and neck restraint to reduce the
| chances of injury.
| optymizer wrote:
| For what it's worth, I learnt to play basketball in Eastern
| Europe about 25 years ago, and there was a much bigger
| emphasis on 3 pointers back then. Pretty much everyone was
| able to make 3 point shots regardless of their main position.
|
| When I came to the US, I was surprised that people were
| amazed that "the big guy can shoot 3s". I played center, but
| it was normal for me to work on free throws, 3 point shots,
| and also take the shots in the game. I couldn't really
| understand why players like Shaq were not able to make even
| free throws, nevermind 3 point shots.
|
| I'm not saying we were all shooting as well as Curry, just
| that I feel like the emphasis on 3 point shots came very late
| to the US. It took someone like Curry for people to really
| internalize just how hard it is to catch up with an offense
| that consistently gets 3 points when they attack the basket
| and that yes, it's OK for all your players on the team to be
| good at shooting the ball.
| dereg wrote:
| Good point. Mike D'Antoni credits his experience in Italy
| for the offenses he implemented in the NBA. To your point,
| while video games may not have originated these ideas, they
| provide both a creative space to try wild ideas as well as
| help change the culture to become receptive to these sorts
| of experiments.
| philwelch wrote:
| There's some justification for this. There are maybe
| 2000-3000 people in the world who are seven feet tall, and
| traditionally you would prioritize footwork, physical
| strength, rebounding, and defense over shooting for those
| players. Steph Curry is 6'2", which is a much more common
| height so you can be a lot more selective about whether or
| not a 6'2" point guard can shoot as opposed to a 7' center.
| Now we do have lots of big guys who can shoot, but not all
| of them can do the other things well enough.
| pif wrote:
| Sorry, I don't get it: what did he gain by shaving 6 seconds
| out of the last 17? Please, help me understand!
| bombcar wrote:
| Clock management in football is incredibly important - the
| last 17 seconds can take multiple minutes to play if the team
| has timeouts, throws out of bounds, all sorts of things.
|
| You want to burn the clock if you have the ball and 17
| seconds remaining, because you don't want the other team to
| have a chance to retaliate.
|
| It's a very delicate balance and one of the most difficult
| "coach" decisions football has, and it applies throughout the
| game, and changes based on how your offense and defense are
| doing vs theirs (do you score fast and hope to defend and
| score again, or do you score slow and hope to defend only,
| etc).
| mehphp wrote:
| Now the opposing team gets less time to score and possibly
| win.
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| And before video games... Senna '91 win in brazil F1... 7 laps
| stuck on the 6th gear https://www.ayrton-senna-
| dasilva.com/brazil-1991/ on the <<Senna>> documentary he even
| says that on the last laps he had an out of the body
| experience, watching himself and the car from the top.
| hibikir wrote:
| Football coaches, especially college coaches and high school
| coaches, have made comments regarding how Madden has changed
| the game in some ways, but it's mainly due to increasing the
| baseline knowledge of the game. Your typical new player might
| have watched some football games, and most of their coaching
| would involve a position coach teaching the specific position.
| There aren't that many coaching hours that aren't dedicated to
| the physical part of the sport, so it wasn't uncommon to find
| players with the right physiques for a position, and decent
| knowledge of how they had to play, but short in general
| "Football IQ".
|
| As the games have become closer to a simulation, kids that are
| football fans get a lot free time where they control both the
| offense and the defense. They get to make calls, and see how
| every player in the team should move, and how it makes a
| difference. It in no way replaces actual football practice, but
| it boosts a lot of what you can ask a middling high school team
| to do.
|
| Even in the pros, you'll hear people talk about how so-and-so
| is "like another coach, but on the field", because knowledge of
| the game overall, and the system they play in, matters. Years
| of videogame football, instead of having to learn even the very
| basics from scratch, makes things easier.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| This is really interesting.
|
| The incentive to pull off this kind of move, running the clock
| down a bit, that was already present. But there's a certain
| social expectation that you won't game the rules so blatantly,
| so that's a disincentive.
|
| What the existence of video games does, is allow people to do
| things like this in an environment where social expectations
| and pressure don't really exist. It's like a psychological
| primer. You do it so many times in the video game, more and
| more you think, gee, why _not_ do this in real life?
| lostlogin wrote:
| > an environment where social expectations and pressure don't
| really exist.
|
| It's almost inverted. The expectation is often for gamers to
| be as exploitative as possible. There is a lot of hilarity to
| be had by all with a play that gets a win in ann unexpected
| way, and it has quite a culture around it. It can go too far
| to be sure, but in good measure it's often what is best about
| multiplayer games.
| doublepg23 wrote:
| Put a more negative way, but perhaps more funny: "Given the
| opportunity gamers will optimize fun out of a game."
| jhanschoo wrote:
| Not really; at the peak of competition, emergent
| mechanics and exploits are celebrated by some
| communities: e.g. wavedashing in Melee, K-style in GunZ,
| not to mention speedrunning.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| That's only in multiplayer games, which are basically
| destined to become not fun at all. It's the competition
| that sucks out the fun. Players optimize for winning,
| cheaters optimize further more, devs optimize for getting
| rid of cheaters and for "maximizing engagement" of the
| rest.
|
| In single-player games, given the opportunity, gamers
| will optimize for all kinds of cheese and hilarity never
| expected by the designers. Doubly so with the modern
| Internet, where sharing videos of your silly play confers
| social status in relevant on-line groups.
| Larrikin wrote:
| I think this is true of all games, where you don't
| specifically seek out other players choosing to be
| purposefully weaker.
|
| The transition from elementary school sports to middle
| school sports is pretty jarring. By the time you get to
| high school they've started weeding out anyone who enjoys
| the game versus dominating other people in preparation
| for college and the few who become pros.
|
| Video games just make this obvious to kids who don't like
| sports.
| ItsMonkk wrote:
| Yep, 'speed runs' are all about optimizing whatever you
| can optimize and are mostly single-player.
|
| The only real distinction between single-player games and
| multiplayer games in this manor is that in single-player
| games players can choose the 'category' they are
| currently playing, whereas in multiplayer it is chosen
| for them. This let's them pick the categories with
| environments that are most fun optimized which is where
| the hilarity comes.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| But that was my point: speed runs are _fun_ and often
| cheesy and score social karma. But only for people who
| care about them. Every other player can ignore them and
| focus on their own fun.
|
| > _The only real distinction between single-player games
| and multiplayer games in this manor is that in single-
| player games players can choose the 'category' they are
| currently playing, whereas in multiplayer it is chosen
| for them._
|
| Yes. That's the distinction that matters.
| j_4 wrote:
| > That's only in multiplayer games
|
| Certainly not true, it's a game design issue that comes
| up all the time. Even in the context of casual solo play,
| players will generally be driven by the very human
| instincts of risk aversion, resource accumulation, and
| seeking efficiency. It takes good design to make this
| behaviour be in line with _having fun_.
|
| If anything, it's multiplayer environments that are
| easier to steer towards that, and also allow room for
| just horsing around.
| motoxpro wrote:
| I can agree that multiplayer isn't forever but all of the
| longest lasting games are multiplayer and thriving, most
| because of the competition. WoW, CSGO (very competitive,
| ~1 million players daily), LoL (competitive).
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| That has little to do with fun, and everything to do with
| _recurring revenue_. Multiplayer aligns itself nicely
| with subscriptions, in a way singleplayer doesn 't.
|
| Don't know about current state of WoW, but the other two
| games you mention, and games like Overwatch or even
| StarCraft 2, are hollowed out and devoid of substance,
| because the competitive multiplayer makes everyone
| focused on meta.
| temphypercube wrote:
| Hey, SC2's still pretty fun. Just look at the sorts of
| off-meta builds uthermal gets away with:
| https://www.youtube.com/c/uThermal
| afarrell wrote:
| A video game is a puzzle and it is fun to watch someone
| successfully manipulate a puzzle.
|
| Live sports are with people and people don't like watching
| others be manipulated.
| setr wrote:
| Of course they do, things like juking, tricking other
| players, etc are well accepted
|
| The problem is that these kinds of strategies are boring
| to watch, have little counter play, and only interesting
| the first time around -- as soon as it enters the meta,
| it's just boring. In this case it'd probably be fine, but
| if you spent two minutes doing it? It'd be awful.
|
| Exactly the same as it goes in video games -- it's fun to
| see people exploiting elements the game, when it adds
| complexity to the match. When it reduces it, like an
| infinite combo, regardless of how mechanically complex or
| novel a puzzle solution it might be, it just detracts.
| solveit wrote:
| Yeah, for game exploits "haha I can't believe you can do
| that, that's hilarious, now let's patch it out" is the
| norm. Exploits that make the game richer and gain wide
| acceptance are very much the exception.
| FileSorter wrote:
| >Exploits that make the game richer and gain wide
| acceptance are very much the exception.
|
| Good examples of this are bunny hopping and rollout
| doomfist.
| musicale wrote:
| > Live sports are with people and people don't like
| watching others be manipulated.
|
| I'm pretty sure I've seen lots of deceptive and
| misleading strategies and tactics in football and other
| sports, not to mention multiple forms of "faking." Also a
| core part of sports like football seems to be putting
| pressure on the person with the ball - up to and
| including physical tackling.
|
| Clock/time management also seems to be a thing.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Much of reality tv is basically watching people be
| manipulated/manipulative too.
| banannaise wrote:
| It's not about manipulation. It's that if you die in
| football, you die in real life. If you do stupid stuff,
| players can get hurt. Whereas in video games, all that
| can really happen is a win or a loss. A bizarre play
| where someone gets hurt is funny in a simulation, and
| tragic in meatspace.
|
| This is part of why the NASCAR move is so interesting.
| The driver himself notes that he was putting himself in
| real actual danger of crashing his car and possibly
| hurting himself, but he was willing to take that risk.
|
| I would not be surprised to see this outlawed in the very
| near future before someone can cause a major crash trying
| it.
| astura wrote:
| Disagree completely, the deke is my favorite play in
| baseball.
| [deleted]
| neffo wrote:
| Yeah breaking the unwritten rules of the game, like not often
| seen is basketballers under-arming free-throws. It's
| unsporting, not even Michael Jordan did it (ooff, he took
| that personally...).
|
| Under-arming was done in modern international cricket once
| and ruined sporting careers.
| jsight wrote:
| I don't think its from video games, tbh, its just not a
| situation that comes up very often. Similar things happen IRL
| on rare occasions and doing weird things to game the rules
| are common when they do.
|
| For example, if its 4th down and you are leading by more than
| 2 points with very little time left on the clock, what do you
| do? One option is to punt and have the punter run out of the
| back of his own endzone. It gives the opponent 2 points, but
| is a very safe play.
|
| I've also seen teams run a punt play, but the offensive
| linemen intentionally commit holding to maximize the amount
| of time that the punter (or qb) holds onto the ball in the
| backfield while the clock runs. The clock doesn't stop until
| the ball hits the ground if a qb throws, so a high long pass
| just out of bounds can burn a few seconds too.
|
| Hmm, lets see... also letting an opponent score a TD happens
| somewhat regularly. And often the player will slide instead
| of scoring. Video game players do that, but the idea didn't
| start there.
| causi wrote:
| _The incentive to pull off this kind of move, running the
| clock down a bit_
|
| Having spent several years playing amateur football in my
| youth, I can attest that the game would be _vastly_ improved
| if the clock never stopped and the teams had set time limits
| between the end of one play the beginning of the next. Christ
| I got so tired of the dicking around.
| Ekaros wrote:
| And you could do it same way as in actual football. Have
| referee call the end when the last play is done.
| zinckiwi wrote:
| At least this is open play with ball in hand, and there is
| danger there. I fully admit I am not very familiar with
| American football, but the completely accepted "taking a
| knee" to run down as much as two minutes of the clock at the
| end of the game strikes me as far more cynical.
| freetime2 wrote:
| It's not cynical at all - clock management is recognized
| and even appreciated as an important part of the game.
| Teams routinely practice how best to take advantage of the
| last 2 minutes of the game, and if they misuse even a few
| seconds of game time the coach gets roasted by the media.
|
| When coaches are able to find a loophole to burn additional
| seconds off the clock, they are celebrated for it [1], and
| the rules are typically amended for the following year to
| prevent similar abuses.
|
| [1] https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/10/19/mike-
| vrabel...
| kerakaali wrote:
| I love this comment and want to add another perspective.
|
| The existence of video games brings people together on a
| level playing field where they are free to explore their
| ideas and refine strategies over a length of time far longer
| than anyone can actually play the game in reality.
|
| You see it to a more immediate effect in games such as Dota2,
| League, etc. Professional level players regularly play with
| amateurs and non-professionals and you notice that ideas
| propagate throughout the community readily.
|
| Obviously there is a certain barrier to entry for physical
| sports and the online equivalent to share in ideas, but with
| how far sports-based games will go striving for realism (all
| the iterations of Football Manager come to mind), it wouldn't
| be hard to imagine that in the future strategies will be
| tested virtually before being employed in real.
| routerl wrote:
| > it wouldn't be hard to imagine that in the future
| strategies will be tested virtually before being employed
| in real.
|
| Meet Max Verstappen[0], current reigning 2-time F1 world
| champion, who credits a lot of his success to how much time
| he spends playing racing simulators online. Seen here[1]
| doing something ridiculous, which works in the sim; he
| hasn't pulled this move on-track yet, but if he does it
| won't suprise me. Incidentally, most of the current
| generation of F1 drivers are also sim racers.
|
| I think what these people are doing is creating goals for
| themselves in virtual spaces, to strive for in real space.
| The OP video couldn't have happened except in the exact
| situation that driver was in, his mind was habituated to
| trying to make that move, and he knew his car and track
| enough to make the correct call re: risk. The video game
| experience is only one part of that, but it's a crucial
| part. The rest came from real world racing experience.
|
| [0] https://www.teamredline.com/work/max-verstappen/
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rC81KMPM9Q
|
| Addendum to explain the video I've linked:
|
| The streamer who is recording is close enough to the car
| ahead (Max Verstappen) that he gets pulled along by the
| slipstream effect (caused by the vacuum created behind the
| car ahead as it cuts through the air). This reduces the
| aerodynamic drag on the streamer's car, and allows him to
| accelerate more than the car ahead.
|
| Normally (i.e. in meatspace racing), in this situation, the
| following car would wait as long as possible in the
| slipstream, until right before the next braking zone, then
| take a sharp turn out from behind the leading car, pass
| them (with the faster acceleration), and then try to brake
| later than the leading car before turning into the next
| corner, ensuring they'd go into the corner first, and thus
| come out of the corner first.
|
| In this clip, Max anticipated all of the above, moved out
| from in front of the following car (breaking the slipstream
| himself), braked much earlier than a racing driver normally
| would (allowing the streamer's car to temporarily pass
| him), and used the time he lost to assess the streamer's
| racing line (read: vector) into the corner. Then he aimed
| his own car into the gap between that line and the corner
| of the track, and used the extra space to accelerate
| earlier than the streamer. By doing this, he negated every
| advantage the streamer had gained from the slipstream, and
| stayed ahead.
| yuliyp wrote:
| That social expectation isn't really present in american
| football: teams will do lots of different things to
| manipulate the game clock toward the end (choose to run vs
| pass because the clock stops on incomplete passes or if the
| ball goes out of bounds, taking a knee, spiking the ball).
| [deleted]
| bee_rider wrote:
| I think it is also common in basketball for a team to
| intentionally manage their fouls, right? And hockey had
| goons for quite a while (I think they've been trying to
| prevent that sort of thing lately). Perhaps we should
| change the meaning of the expression "sportsmanlike
| behavior."
| philodelta wrote:
| Though there is the _threat_ of rules being made to govern
| "unsportsman-like" behavior that dissuades this kind of
| thing. If the powers that govern the sport determine they
| don't want this to be a mainstay, they can rule it out. The
| videogame exists in a realm of concrete and unchanging rules,
| theres no threat of making anyone mad, besides the person at
| the other end of the couch of course.
| darepublic wrote:
| Yes there is social pressure not to try anything so
| unorthodox. If you fail the social / reputational fallout
| will be greater than it you failed the old fashioned way.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >But there's a certain social expectation that you won't game
| the rules so blatantly, so that's a disincentive.
|
| There's also the concept of good sportsmanship. Doing this
| kind of "move" could be considered disrespectful and a show
| of bad sportsmanship.
|
| The other football has its time honored ways of wasting time,
| keeping the ball in the opponent's corner, the keeper waiting
| until the last second to pick up a ball, someone getting
| "hurt", nobody open on a throw-in, walking off for a sub,
| etc. Then there's the sportsmanship thing of kicking the ball
| out of play for an opposing player to receive treatment. How
| much of the time wasting is good/bad sportsmanship vs good
| stratechery?
| jjfoooo4 wrote:
| I think it's more that unlike in video games, real football
| players cannot see behind them without turning their heads
| and slowing down.
|
| There any many examples of players who thought they were in
| the clear and celebrated early, only to get tackled and
| fumble.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Yeah, I don't think it is social expectation... in fact, some
| common game clock management choices (like taking a knee) are
| frowned on much more in video games than real life.
| depingus wrote:
| > The incentive to pull off this kind of move, running the
| clock down a bit, that was already present. But there's a
| certain social expectation that you won't game the rules so
| blatantly, so that's a disincentive.
|
| Clock management is a pretty big aspect of (American)
| football strategy and very much expected. I don't think
| anyone considers it gaming the rules. Just off the top of my
| head:
|
| - Teams with comfortable leads tend to switch to conservative
| play calling. This keeps the ball safe and the clock running.
|
| - Inside of 2:00, getting tackled on the field keeps the
| clock running. But running out of bounds or throwing an
| incomplete pass will stop the clock. So plays are always
| chosen to take advantage of this.
|
| - Quarterbacks will spike the ball to quickly the stop the
| clock (incomplete pass).
|
| - Calling a timeout stops the clock, so teams save these for
| the 2:00 drill. The 2:00 warning also stops the clocks, teams
| consider this a free timeout.
|
| - Coaches will call timeout just as a kicker is about to kick
| a field goal. This is called "freezing the kicker". When
| timed right, it makes the kicker have to kick it again.
| banannaise wrote:
| Fun fact, two of those five things are known to be
| counterproductive, but coaches still do them, presumably
| due to social expectation and/or job security.
|
| Conservative play calling with a lead, particularly on
| defense, is known to reduce your chances of holding the
| lead. Sticking to more balanced tactics leads to losses
| that look more spectacular, but fewer of them.
|
| And depending on how you look at the stats, the "icing the
| kicker" timeout either doesn't really work, or only works
| if done before the offense is set, which is not when most
| coaches call it.
| philwelch wrote:
| I've heard for years that, statistically, icing the
| kicker doesn't work. But whenever I actually see it
| happen, it's in a situation where the defending team has
| no other productive use for the timeout, which means
| there's also no reason _not_ to ice the kicker.
| banannaise wrote:
| You're correct, I misspoke. One is counterproductive and
| one (icing the kicker) is benignly useless.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _I don 't think anyone considers it gaming the rules._
|
| Explicit clock management is part of the game.
|
| But if you start messing around when the other team has
| ended pursuit, you are definitely breaking an "unwritten
| rule" (of which there are many in sports).
| jaywalk wrote:
| A good example of this is when defenders try to "blow up"
| a victory formation. It's perfectly legal, but generally
| considered bad sportsmanship.
| banannaise wrote:
| This, and many other "bad sportsmanship" behaviors, are
| taboo because they are far less likely to affect the
| result of the game than they are to injure someone.
|
| Behaviors like this will typically result in some
| variation of an on-field fight, which honestly seems like
| a pretty fair means of enforcement.
| songshu wrote:
| The Super Bowl in 2013 featured an intentional safety.
| Losing points but running the clock down. The play was
| predicted by one attendee at the party I was at --- a
| British gentleman whose introduction to football had been
| the Madden games.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| I was trying to figure out if you meant the SB held for
| the 2013 season or the SB actually held in 2013 but then
| I remembered that it happened in both lol
| mnd999 wrote:
| Even victory formation, this is an ultra cautious time
| waste. It's also a thing in association football (soccer).
| Teams are praised for passing the ball around aimlessly
| denying the opposition possession to defend a lead. It's
| boring to watch, unless it's your team.
| banannaise wrote:
| An interesting note is that basketball was like this
| until the introduction of the backcourt violation and
| shot clock.
|
| The difference, of course, is that basketball is a fast-
| paced, high-scoring game, and the entertainment value
| suffers mightily when it is slowed down. Soccer is about
| deliberately building to a scoring opportunity, so
| forcibly speeding up the game would simply ruin the
| structure. Obviously, "turtling" can be a bit of a
| problem as a result, but it's not hard for a team to
| sacrifice some defensive structure to press for a
| turnover.
| ambicapter wrote:
| You're obviously very familiar with football but the
| accuracy here is so high I just had to point out that I've
| never heard "freezing the kicker". The idiom I hear most
| often is "icing" the kicker.
| depingus wrote:
| You are correct. I messed that one up.
| bombcar wrote:
| There are books on it -
| https://johntreed.com/products/football-clock-
| management-5th... for example, and they're quite worth the
| read if you're interested in football at all. Some of the
| clock management tricks are relatively unintuitive - and
| some only work if you do it _most_ but not _all_ the time.
|
| Football is a really interesting sport above/behind the
| field.
| hattmall wrote:
| There's no social expectation in football. People don't
| generally do stuff like this because of the risk.
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| This is the right answer. There have been running backs,
| kick returners and pass receivers who thought they had
| outrun the opponents and slowed down towards the end zone
| to gawk and show off, and wound up getting tackled short of
| what should have been an easy touchdown by people that
| caught up to them. I wouldn't be surprised if, in at least
| one of those cases, the defense then showed up and forced a
| turnover after a three-and-out on a first and goal.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| One reason you typically don't see _really_ hacky
| /exploitative stuff in competitive sports is that... these
| sports are decades or even 100+ years old. Tens of thousands
| of games have been played by extremely talented and
| competitive individuals. Thousands of exploits have been
| tried and written into the rulebooks.
|
| For example, the "Sean Avery" rule in hockey.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Avery#The_Avery_Rule
|
| That was a neat "exploit" and much respect to him for trying
| it, but it was outlawed literally the next day.
| The incentive to pull off this kind of move, running
| the clock down a bit, that was already present. But
| there's a certain social expectation that you won't
| game the rules so blatantly, so that's a
| disincentive.
|
| While a fun thought, I cannot understate how incorrect this
| is.
|
| In basketball, football, or basically any sport with a time
| limit there is absolutely zero stigma or shame with regards
| to running out the clock if it benefits your team.
|
| In fact, that guy would have been raked over the coals if he
| _didn 't_ run out the clock.
|
| I also assure you his coach was exhorting the team to win the
| game by running out the clock rather than scoring with time
| remaining on the clock which would have given the other team
| another chance to score and perhaps tie/win.
|
| I'm sure that player definitely did pull that move off in a
| video game, but so has everybody else, because it's also
| super basic football strategy!
| indymike wrote:
| Leveraging loopholes in the rules, using the clock and
| gambits where you bet on the refs officials missing a call
| are as old as the game in most sports. Every year, there
| are new rules added to the books to cover all the edge
| cases that were discovered during the last season.
| [deleted]
| jefftk wrote:
| I'm not a football person, but my understanding from the
| article is that this wasn't something that people were
| doing until after it became popular in the video game?
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I'm not sure the Wired writer is a football person
| either.
|
| I can probably best explain it this way: that play does
| not have a name, because it's pretty basic and that guy
| didn't invent it. Clock management is _so_ integral to
| gridiron football.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_out_the_clock#Ameri
| can...
|
| You probably see that move a little bit more in video
| games. In real life there's more that can go wrong; you
| have eleven guys chasing you and you do not have
| 360-degree awareness. The ball could be knocked away from
| you, etc. Worst case scenario you hurt your teammates,
| lose your job, etc. So you will be more conservative.
|
| I think video games have influenced football in a lot of
| ways, just not that one. Particularly TV coverage - the
| "sky cams" on high tension wires crisscrossing the
| arenas, mimicking the unfettered virtual cameras in video
| games. Also, the superimposed CGI first down lines on the
| field.
| zeckalpha wrote:
| First down lines were super imposed before video games
| could do that. It just was the classic yellow straight
| line.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Huh! It seems so. The TV technology debuted in 1998. I
| was certain that games were doing it before that, but I
| couldn't find any evidence. I must have been mistaken - I
| guess TV did it first.
|
| http://insightreplay.com/the-story-behind-nfls-magic-
| yellow-...
| appleiigs wrote:
| Do you remember the glowing puck from 1996? For some
| viewers it was difficult to see where the puck was, so
| Fox made the puck look like a red comet on TV when
| someone took a shot.
| jaywalk wrote:
| I mean, video games _could_ do it of course. But the idea
| definitely started with TV.
| [deleted]
| jdminhbg wrote:
| I don't think it's the social expectations that are at play
| here. Instead, it's that without video game football, the
| odds of a player ever being in this situation are minuscule
| -- so minuscule that we're currently commenting on an article
| written about one time that it happened twelve years ago --
| and so the correct strategy won't be something that pops into
| your head when sprinting for the end zone. But if you play
| hundreds to thousands of iterated games of video game
| football where you control the ball on every play, you're
| bound to run into the scenario and be detached enough to know
| what to do. Then that gets burned into your memory for the
| unlikely event it happens in real life.
| dkarl wrote:
| The penalty for making a mistake is extremely high, too.
| There are many examples of players easing up as they near
| the goal line because they think they're in the clear, and
| then getting hit or stripped at the last second, incurring
| eternal embarrassment or shame. You not only need to be in
| a very specific game situation, you also need to be
| extremely certain that none of the eleven opposing players
| are going to get a shot at you.
| banannaise wrote:
| You can see him looking over his shoulder repeatedly,
| almost panicked, during his run because he's so worried
| about this actually happening. He had to make himself
| _really_ sure this wouldn 't happen.
| bscphil wrote:
| > But if you play hundreds to thousands of iterated games
| of video game football where you control the ball on every
| play, you're bound to run into the scenario and be detached
| enough to know what to do.
|
| Back in the day, the AI for opponents was often fairly
| stupid. Rather than spreading out intelligently to prevent
| an opponent from reaching the goal line, they would just
| sprint towards your current location at all times. So if
| you run in a bit of a loop from where it makes sense for
| you to actually go, you can get the opponents to chase you
| in a long line. Not hard to dodge them almost indefinitely
| in this case, allowing you to take an arbitrary amount of
| time off the clock. Real players won't behave like this.
|
| > I don't think it's the social expectations that are at
| play here.
|
| I agree, mostly, but there could be a slight effect here.
| It's widely known that coaches choose to punt rather than
| go for it on fourth down (in American football, failing to
| take the ball past a "first down" marker in five downs
| results in a turnover) much more often than they should if
| motivated purely to win the most games. It's speculated
| that coaches are disincentivized to make high-risk, high-
| reward choices like going for it, when trying and failing
| it will result in embarrassment versus taking the safe
| option.
| thefreeman wrote:
| As a bit of an aside, the past few years have seen a
| drastic rise in coaches "going for it" on 4th down
| instead of punting in a lot of situations. This is mainly
| attributed to the rising use of analytics by coaching
| staffs.
| bombcar wrote:
| It can be directly attributed to people studying the
| stats - but it had been known for _years_ that "going
| for it on 4th" was statistically better. But coaches were
| loathe to do it because if they did, and failed, they'd
| get yelled at for not doing it "normally", and if they
| succeeded nobody would notice.
|
| It took quite awhile for that logjam to break.
| sokoloff wrote:
| The team gets only four downs, not five, to pass the
| first down line and reset it.
| zeckalpha wrote:
| Picket fencing!
| jstanley wrote:
| > in American football, failing to take the ball past a
| "first down" marker in five downs results in a turnover
|
| Thanks for clarifying.
| dkarl wrote:
| Gaming the rules is part of the game in most American team
| sports. The culture of consistency in rule enforcement
| regardless of context enables this, and it dovetails nicely
| with deception being celebrated as a tactic (hidden ball
| tricks in baseball, and deceptions like this play[0] in
| football) which also depends on rules being enforced.
|
| Another way to put it is that in American sports like
| baseball, basketball, and football, the rules are considered
| part of the game, and using the rules to your advantage shows
| respect for the game. With soccer, by contrast, people often
| talk about an essence of the game that transcends the rules,
| which the rules only approximate, and it seems like there is
| a different relationship to the rules as a result. Rules are
| a necessary evil that serve the higher essence of the game,
| and if you are too concerned with the rules people might feel
| like you are disrespecting the higher essence that they
| serve. At least that has been my impression from spectators
| and amateurs, in my experience. Competitors at higher levels
| of play might approach it differently.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MiD6no269s
| harrydehal wrote:
| Assuming this is the video you're referencing:
| https://youtu.be/9fPamV6LsV8?t=107
| chasd00 wrote:
| I haven't seen it in a while but it use to be fairly common to
| take a delay of game penalty (sometimes two in a row) to wind
| down the clock.
|
| /American football
| zerocrates wrote:
| The NFL has rules to try make this ineffective: for one,
| taking two delay of game penalties in a row is an
| unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. There's also various rules
| that try to eliminate strategic use of penalties to run down
| the clock by making the clock stop on penalties at the ends
| of the halves.
|
| You still see delay of game penalties by teams running down
| the clock fairly regularly, but it's more to just use every
| available second of the play clock up, typically in a
| situation where the distance loss isn't very important (like
| right before a punt).
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Furthermore, sometimes you want to lose the distance so
| that the punter doesn't have to struggle with a punt that's
| on the short end of his comfortable range.
| c7b wrote:
| Interesting, why is it that it's "so obviously inspired by the
| tactics of videogame football"? It sounds like a pretty good
| (albeit annoying) tactic for a real game. In European football
| it's actually very common for players to use stall tactics, and
| they don't even gain as much because there's no hard limit on
| how long the game lasts.
| rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
| Stalling like this in American football is significantly more
| risky because if any member of the opposing team reaches you,
| you lose everything.
| m463 wrote:
| I have noticed other analogies between computer behavior and
| real life.
|
| Basically security and similar attacks that were practical on
| computers have now become practical in real life.
|
| Think of one person annoying a business. But now what the same
| person annoys a business repeatedly? Or someone and all his
| friends annoy a business repeatedly? attack, denial of service
| attack, distributed denial of service attack.
|
| there are probably lots of other examples
| samstave wrote:
| This is like killing Lord British tactic in UO
| jahlove wrote:
| https://youtu.be/9fPamV6LsV8
| karaokeyoga wrote:
| and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byZ67YQBFCk
| ignoramous wrote:
| mirror: http://ghostarchive.org/varchive/9fPamV6LsV8
| jjallen wrote:
| I'm amazed it took until the video game era for this to happen.
| jjallen wrote:
| They do this in basketball all the time. At least they try to.
| That's why there's a shot clock.
| CrimsonCape wrote:
| I can't believe how conservative the responses are here. This guy
| is the epitome of a hacker, an embodiment of the title of this
| site.
| otherme123 wrote:
| My TKD teacher once told us that he always looks for "cheaters"
| within the rules or out-of-the-box thinkers, because that's the
| right mindset to be succesful at competitions.
|
| When you play by the rules, you are limited to your abilities.
| But if you can squeeze advantages here and there, you can climb
| some extra spots, maybe to the top.
| skytreader wrote:
| Hey! Fellow TKD practitioner here. I'm just curious if you
| found ways to "cheat the rules" so to speak. Mind sharing
| them?
|
| I know that with the direction the sport has taken in the
| last decade or so, there are probably _a hell lot_ of hacks
| right now. I even heard that players would change tactics
| (ie., rely on certain kicks /strikes more) depending on the
| hogu brand in use.
|
| But I competed before the advent of e-hogus and the one trick
| I found is punching just at the upper edge of the chest part
| of the hogu. That's where the rubber padding ends which
| transitions to the mere "cotton" padding that fluffs the
| straps. This meant that my opponent might actually hurt from
| my punch, while plainly making contact with the protective
| gear. In an era where punches rarely scored points if at all,
| this was useful. I felt like I could punish people for
| clinching too much.
|
| (Needless to say, this was in high school competitions. I
| dunno if it would've been as useful in higher tiers.)
|
| So did you find anything else? I'm curious! :)
| otherme123 wrote:
| Nothing serious. We were training combat and we were given
| a small set of rules to get points which included (in
| hindsight) obvious holes. The smart guys quickly detected
| and exploited the holes, to the dismay of their opponents,
| some of whom got very angry. This was maybe 10 years ago,
| so one I remember: the rule was "a point if you slap your
| opponent shoulder with your hand", demonstrated as trying
| to hit the further shoulder of the opponent. It was a game
| of reflexes, keep the distance, quick entry and blocking,
| but also it was too easy to hit the closest shoulder,
| something someone noticed after a good two minutes into the
| exercise.
|
| Before the e-hogus a fellow competitor used to punch in a
| way that was not damage effective, but made a lot of noise
| and looked like a real punch (almost like a backhand slap),
| scoring a lot of points. Their opponents claimed that they
| weren't even hit. Another guy used to launch kicks in the
| last possible moment of a clinch (almost always a jump-
| turning-and-back-kick, tuio mondollyo tuit chagi, don't
| know the name in english), just when he noticed in the
| corner of the eye the referee intended to break the clinch.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I had one coach who was super into what could most
| charitably called "gamesmanship."
|
| Just one example:
|
| He noticed one ref gave verbal warnings only the first two
| times someone stepped out of bounds, so he had me bait the
| opponent into throwing a bunch of kicks as I retreated
| until I had two verbal warnings. My opponent was rather
| pissed off before I threw a single kick, upped the
| aggression and fell right into a counter.
|
| He was good at all the regular tactics too; my only TKO was
| accomplished by starting out round 2 with exactly what he
| told me to do.
|
| Re: the hogu thing, I did see someone do a push-kick on the
| hogu, then drag the foot down, pulling the hogu with it
| until there was no padding over the collar bone and punch
| there. He broke two people's collar bones and the ref was
| oblivious. The second opponent retaliated and it escalated
| with the match ending -3 to -2 (yes _negative_ for both
| people). The guy who initiated the dirty stuff won, but had
| a broken instep (his opponent caught a roundhouse by
| raising his thigh and dropped an elbow directly onto the
| instep).
| skrtskrt wrote:
| Funny enough I feel like only older "less realistic" driving
| games would let this be an advantage, Forza for instance realllly
| slows you down from the friction of hugging a wall
| bytehowl wrote:
| In Gran Turismo Sport it'll most likely just earn you a
| penalty, but it can be advantageous under certain
| circumstances.
|
| https://youtu.be/xK3NabIdk60?t=1022
| [deleted]
| aasasd wrote:
| Wall riders are a perpetual bane in multiplayer races. Perhaps
| Forza and GT finally added measures against that, but among
| e.g. videos on the 'Super GT' simmer channel, you can see
| plenty of riders, especially in Forza Horizon.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| A realistic game would model the aero advantages from hugging
| the wall.
| nautilius wrote:
| Care to elaborate what those would be?
| nautilius wrote:
| Guess the downvote means 'no'.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| A friend told me once he lost control of his car while driving.
| In that moment, he spontaneously reacted doing the same thing he
| did when that happened in Gran Turismo. That saved his life.
| thyrsus wrote:
| I wish I could tell what parts of such games were realistic,
| and then be able to practice emergency maneuvers - e.g. at 70
| mph, cargo falls off the back of a pickup I'm following - just
| how sharply can I swerve my Toyota Corolla without going into a
| roll?
| bagels wrote:
| Gran Turismo has cartoon physics (or at least the first 4 or
| 5 did) not the best one to translate from.
|
| That said, you probably won't roll a Corolla (low center of
| mass and relatively low grip tires) without hitting something
| like a curb or a surface change. You are more likely to just
| uncontrollably drive in to an obstacle.
| bombcar wrote:
| He's lucky he didn't get his arse blueshelled. Probably why he
| didn't go all the way to first.
| gareth_untether wrote:
| Took me a minute to realise this is a Mario Kart reference.
| QuadmasterXLII wrote:
| Of all the forms of immortality, my favorite is participating in
| a competition in such a brilliant, incorrect way that a rule is
| permanently added just for you.
| zardo wrote:
| I'm surprised they don't just DQ him under an intentionally
| vague rule on reckless maneuvers.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Sports don't generally work that way, especially in the US.
| If it's not specifically against the rules but clearly should
| be, you get the old "great job! Never do it again!"
| zardo wrote:
| Motorsports generally have a rule like, "safety violation
| deemed at official's discretion". The wikipage on NASCAR
| rules looks like it has just such a rule.
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| I recall "if you ain't cheating' you ain't tryin'" has been
| a part of NASCAR since getting more money than running
| shine.
| kube-system wrote:
| The top competitors of any sport tend to inherently
| filter for those who are willing to go to extreme lengths
| to win.
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Something something Lance Armstrong...good point I think
| you made.
| stubish wrote:
| Famous, or sometimes infamous.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underarm_bowling_incident_of_1...
| caf wrote:
| In the same sport there's also the Mankad.
| kumarharsh wrote:
| But that's not an illegal move - interestingly, ICC (the
| body which regulates Cricket) has always recognized the
| move as official - specifically confirming it as such after
| the recent incident involving the women's teams of India &
| England.
| lisper wrote:
| When I was in high school a local science museum had an annual
| paper airplane contest. One of the events was duration of
| flight. The launch platform was a second-story landing. One
| year I won with a simple piece of paper the size of a dollar
| bill that was bent into a S-shape profile so that it would
| twirl as it fell. It turns out this is actually a legitimate
| way to produce lift, and actual human-carrying aircraft have
| been built with wings that use this principle, but I didn't
| know that at the time, and neither did the competition
| organizers. They thought I was cheating, and so did I. So the
| next year they tried to change the rules in a way that would
| disqualify my design but they couldn't come up with a
| legitimate way to phrase such a rule, so in the end they
| decided on a very clever solution: all entries in the duration-
| of-flight event had to carry a penny as a payload.
|
| So I built a very large version of the same design out of
| computer punch cards taped together, and won again. I'm still
| proud of that.
| Shocka1 wrote:
| You are basically the Smokey Yunick of paper airplanes:
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20060323051213/http://insiderrac.
| ..
| dugmartin wrote:
| That reminds me of when I carefully built a "lightbulb drop"
| challenge container that looked like the moon lander in high
| school art. We were given two pieces of construction paper,
| two straws and two large rubber bands. I spent a week I think
| building and testing my design so that it would use the
| straws and rubber bands like springs and the paper like fins
| to ensure it landed in the right position and prevent the
| lightbulb from breaking.
|
| Cue "demo day": my friend forgot about the project and took
| the straws and wrapped them around the bulb and then crinkled
| up the construction paper roughly and wrapped it around the
| straws and bulb and then took the rubber bands and secured
| the paper. I think he spent maybe a minute on it.
|
| I think you maybe know how this ends. The teacher sneered at
| his design but then proceeded to drop it several times from
| the top of a ladder and the bulb never broke. He then took my
| design and dropped it upside down (springs pointing up) and
| the bulb shattered. I still think about that and laugh 30+
| years later.
| thrtythreeforty wrote:
| This is sort of similar to helicopter autorotation, isn't it?
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| Yes, this is basically how you are supposed to crash-land a
| helicopter if the engine fails.
| K0balt wrote:
| Actually in this case he's using an airfoil spinning on a
| horizontal axis perpendicular to the direction of flight.
|
| But yes, helicopters can be safely landed this way
| without power (not crash landed, but actually landed,
| though crashing is always an option lol)
|
| Also, gyrocopters use the same principle for all phases
| of controlled flight, by simply using a traction engine
| to move the aircraft foreword, with a free spinning,
| unpowered, typically fixed pitch or no cyclic control
| rotor providing the lift.
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| When I was trying to get a helicopter license (pre-
| pandemic), I did one of these as part of training (the
| instructor had me actually complete the landing... he was
| a little crazy) and I wouldn't exactly consider it a
| typical landing, but the helicopter and its occupants
| were indeed in working order.
| lisper wrote:
| It depends on what you consider "similar", but no, the
| rotation of the paper has nothing to do with the rotation
| of helicopter blades during autorotation. In that case, the
| blades act like ordinary wings and they do an ordinary
| glide, albeit in a circular direction because the blades
| are fixed at one end. What happens with the paper is
| different. The axis of rotation is horizontal rather than
| vertical.
|
| However, there _is_ a sort of rotation about a horizontal
| axis in an ordinary wing because a wing produces vortices,
| and this is a necessary part of the process of producing
| lift [1]. In heavy aircraft these vortices can be
| surprisingly powerful and long-lasting, to the point where
| they can cause smaller aircraft to lose control and even
| crash if they get caught in one [2].
|
| That first reference has an excellent description of what
| was going on in my design [3].
|
| [1] https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/airfoils.html#sec-
| circulation-v...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_turbulence
|
| [3] https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/airfoils.html#sec-spinners
| thrtythreeforty wrote:
| I see, thank you. Your initial description sounded more
| like a maple seed's wing. I did not know you could
| generate lift as described in your links.
| lisper wrote:
| Neither did I :-) I only learned about it about 20 years
| after the fact.
| kqr wrote:
| It depends on how you interpret the parent comment, but my
| guess is no. The autorotation you're speaking of happens in
| a plane roughly parallel to the ground. This is a very
| powerful and stable way for a wing to generate lift:
| https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/spins.html#sec-samara
|
| There's another option, which is counter-rotation along an
| axis parallel to the ground, and orthogonal to the
| direction of travel. This mechanically induces circulation,
| which produces lift (by the same principle that a curveball
| produces sideways lift.) Here's more information on this
| funky phenomenon:
| https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/airfoils.html#sec-spinners
| metaphor wrote:
| Surprised Smokey Yunick's name isn't mentioned anywhere.
|
| Reminds me of this entertaining seminar[1] of a bunch of old
| school IMSA racers describing how they got "creative" racing
| around the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfq7-1ePW-M
| mindcrime wrote:
| It always makes me happy to see Smokey Yunick's name come up
| on HN. It doesn't happen very often[1], but he was clearly a
| "hacker" as much as any programmer or computer science guy
| was!
|
| [1]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=fals
| e&qu...
| jansan wrote:
| David Berkoff's underwater dolphin kick is such an example.
|
| Even better is the Fosbury flop, which was just accepted as a
| superior technique and no rules were adjusted.
| JackFr wrote:
| However modern foam pads were a prerequisite. If you Fosbury
| flop into sawdust and sand your career won't last long.
| sc0ttyd wrote:
| A counterexample to the Fosbury Flop was Tuariki Delamere's
| Front Flip in the long jump, which was immediately banned
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe0zi_fkyts
| bitL wrote:
| One for the history books alongside Zanardi's "The Pass"
| (banned right after it happened).
| QuadmasterXLII wrote:
| Or of course this could become the new meta, which from a
| viewer perspective might be even better
| ratg13 wrote:
| Often referred to as the "air bud" defense.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > Of all the forms of immortality, my favorite is participating
| in a competition in such a brilliant, incorrect way that a rule
| is permanently added just for you.
|
| That's precisely why car races are boring these days.
| Everything is forbidden and over-regulated so there's no space
| for innovation anymore. Look at F1 and its bloat of
| regulations.
| ricktdotorg wrote:
| have you tried watching BTCC/British Touring Car
| Championship? it's a lot of inches-apart racing with a lot of
| actual contact and some incredibly skilled drivers. can be
| quite thrilling!
| mertd wrote:
| Motorsports are different than other sports because the
| drivers' lives are under very real risk. A lot of the
| regulation is to keep the drivers alive. It comes at the
| expense of excitement but we would all agree it's necessary.
| gonzo41 wrote:
| So the next step is to remove the drivers and have a more
| exciting race. I feel like there's a missing league of F1
| autonomous driving cars.
| SonOfKyuss wrote:
| I don't disagree that the racing itself could be more
| exciting in that scenario, but without the human element,
| I just don't think people would stay interested
| ekianjo wrote:
| > I just don't think people would stay interested
|
| Make fake AI drivers with a backstory and AI-generated
| faces and stories and people won't see the difference
| gonzo41 wrote:
| People like expensive crashes. Just look at Facebook:p
| ascagnel_ wrote:
| There was an attempt that failed.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32183567
| Ekaros wrote:
| I think we could already run them from simulators
| cockpits. So just throw in a few cameras and network and
| let the rules to be lose.
| anonymous_sorry wrote:
| Motorsports are not unique in this regard. John Delamere
| pioneered the forward somersault long jump technique [0],
| which was then banned for fear that athletes might break
| their necks.
|
| [0] https://vault.si.com/vault/1974/07/29/the-flip-that-
| led-to-a...
| joshu wrote:
| Probably don't paint the entire sport with one brush. Lots of
| racing is very exciting, especially to the people who are
| doing it (the vast majority of racing is amateur/club/etc.)
| Bergmeister vs Magnussen wasn't that long ago...
| ajmurmann wrote:
| But in F1 it's exciting because you never know what rules
| they are gonna enforce this time and for whom. /s
|
| Edit: on a more serious note: The regulations are so tight to
| keep it exciting. Frustratingly, if the regulations are more
| open, one of the better funded teams will just run away with
| the best car. That already happened in some seasons, but
| would be even worse without tight regulations.
| rocqua wrote:
| With the cost cap these days, I wish they would let up on
| so many of the 'this is to expensive to develop for
| everyone' regulations.
|
| Give us back mass dampers, active suspension, flexi-wings,
| dual-axis steering, and similar things. None of these are
| driver aids, and they aren't inherently unsafe (flexi wings
| might be more fragile). They were banned because it would
| be too expensive for everyone to have to develop it.
|
| But the cost cap solves the problem of 'too expensive for
| everyone to develop it'. Everyone gets the same choice, and
| if a properly tuned mass-damper takes 30 million to get
| right, and 10 million to sort-of-work. Then people get to
| pick where the best cost-benefit trade-off lies.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > one of the better funded teams will just run away with
| the best car
|
| There's one way to quickly solve this. Just mass-produce
| the cars and give everyone the exact same car. Then we will
| know who is the best racer.
| fnimick wrote:
| You just invented Indy racing. And it's excellent.
| persona_reuse wrote:
| > because you never know what rules they are gonna enforce
| this time and for whom.
|
| Narrator: "It was Gasly."
| joshu wrote:
| I have a historic car that ended up banned at Le Mans over
| rules and caused Lotus to stop competing while at the same
| Ferrari did not get banned from the same race despite also
| falling afoul of some different rules. at least according
| to legend, anyway.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| According to Adrian Newey's book it came out in 2015 that
| Ferrari had a secret deal with the FIA that allowed
| Ferrari to veto any regulation changes. It also is
| interesting how cars in the early 90s started to have
| more advanced electronics like active suspension which
| Ferrari never got to work and then those things got
| banned.
| joshu wrote:
| There is definitely precedent. In '62 Ferrari threatened
| to pull all their cars from Le Mans over some ruling they
| disagreed with. Lotus went home and didn't go back to LM
| for many, many years.
|
| (Reading the Wikipedia article, looks like they only
| mention two Lotus 23s going but I think there were more)
| chasd00 wrote:
| I think many of the regulations in F1 are because people
| generally don't like to watch other people die. F1 drivers
| killing themselves all over the track is bad for business.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| That's definitely another source of regulations. Many of
| the very specific regulations that dictate minute details
| are about more competitive races though. For example the
| current regulation changes that called in effect in 2022
| were all about aero that allows for better following and
| thus wheel-to-wheel racing. Mercedes' wing that flexed a
| few microns too much had nothing to do with safety
| lelanthran wrote:
| > That's precisely why car races are boring these days.
| Everything is forbidden and over-regulated so there's no
| space for innovation anymore. Look at F1 and its bloat of
| regulations.
|
| Does rally (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDGJoPmR_8U)
| count as car racing?
| thrwyoilarticle wrote:
| Rally is just going to be another example. As of this year,
| all the cars are econobox facades over space frames. No
| trickle-down innovation or 'win on Sunday sell on Monday'.
| nwatson wrote:
| Here's another one:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2F7EaeDbHY&t=158s
|
| Got to wonder what the spectator body count is at an event
| like this.
| gpderetta wrote:
| Well, Group B was peak rally popularity, but as drivers
| (and public) started dying, it had to be regulated to
| oblivion.
| jboy55 wrote:
| Besides the Can-Am series lenient regulations, what auto race
| series didn't have regulations?
| swader999 wrote:
| And yet here we are!
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| If he wins the NASCAR cup maybe it can be asterisked as the
| "Deviousness Trophy"
| inasio wrote:
| Agree! Reminds me of swimmers going underwater for most of the
| backstroke event in the Seoul Olympics [0]
|
| [0] https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/when-the-
| backstro...
| fimbulvetr wrote:
| My favorite is Eddie the Eagle. Watch the movie or read the
| book. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_the_Eagle
| bombcar wrote:
| There was a rule added to baseball about making a "mockery of
| the game" for sending a midget in to pinch-hit, and having
| nearly no strike zone, he walked on four balls.
|
| > American League president Will Harridge, saying Veeck was
| making a mockery of the game, voided Gaedel's contract the
| next day. In response, Veeck threatened to request an
| official ruling on whether Yankees shortstop and reigning
| American League MVP Phil Rizzuto, who stood 5 feet 6 inches
| (1.68 m), was a short ballplayer or a tall dwarf.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel
| couchand wrote:
| Unbelievable!
|
| > He received confirmation of his qualification for the games
| while working as a plasterer and temporarily residing in a
| Finnish mental hospital, due to lack of funds for alternative
| accommodation rather than as a patient.
| eCa wrote:
| My favourite of these is probably Graeme Obree[1] who managed
| to get not one, but two very different bike positions banned in
| the '90s after setting the hour record using one of them and
| winning the world championship using the other.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Obree
| mastazi wrote:
| Interesting video with Obree where his positions are tested
| in a wind tunnel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9H0INZ2_s
| ArnoVW wrote:
| A bit like Michael Guerra? I haven't checked, but if his
| trick didn't get banned...
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Iz7ZMALaCY
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| while this is of course very cool, I was always convinced
| that it also included a motor. The acceleration seems too
| abrupt for just a Cd advantage, and that was right around
| the time of the big motor in chassis scandals
| askvictor wrote:
| He's riding a fixie (presumably it's a fixie race). On a
| downhill, your legs are slowing you down; presumably he
| would have gained some advantage just by taking his feet
| off the pedals, but this would give a bit more advantage.
| grvdrm wrote:
| Saw this recently. Amazing and frightening!
| K0balt wrote:
| Planking is how the kids here race 70cc Honda cub
| motorcycles. They shift with their hands and have specially
| modified seats to support the prone riding position.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Heh, I'd never seen the full clip of that and the scooter
| driver's reaction just about had me spit on my keyboard
| over here.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Same here. Your comment convinced me to click, no
| regrets. :D
| bombcar wrote:
| 1. The scooter guy reaction
|
| 2. The scooter guy decides "can't beat 'em might as well
| join him"
|
| 3. The poor mobility scooter being passed by all this
| sndean wrote:
| And it's interesting how long some of these GameCube
| moves/bike positions can leave a mark on a sport. Just three
| weeks ago Filippo Ganna broke the Boardman's superman
| position record (from 1996), finally topping the last of the
| hour record tricks [1].
|
| [1] https://www.velonews.com/news/road/filippo-ganna-smashes-
| uci...
| acrump wrote:
| Graeme Obree tested in a wind tunnel -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9H0INZ2_s
| aeneasmackenzie wrote:
| 1930s: going fast by leaning backward, banned
|
| 1990s: going fast by leaning forward, banned
|
| I look forward to 2100 when they will simply ban going faster
| than a specific speed.
| recursive wrote:
| going fast by leaning forward has definitely not been
| banned.
| Someone wrote:
| It's not likely that will make you immortal. Being forbidden,
| your technique will not be used, so your name won't be
| mentioned, and it will be forgotten (You might get famous if
| your technique keeps getting used by accident)
|
| For example, there's "Felix Erausquin", who invented a javelin
| throwing technique you probably never heard of.
|
| http://rethinkingathletics.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-
| javelin-...:
|
| _However the true revolution of javelin throw came in 1956
| when a 49 year old spaniard, Felix Erausquin, invented what
| came to be called the "spanish style". Erausquin was a
| specialist of shot put and discus throw (with several national
| titles and records) but also of the "barra vasca" which
| consists in throwing a heavy rod using a rotational technique.
| Erausquin adapted the style of the barra to javelin throw with
| a greased hand and managed a throw of 83.40 m at a few
| centimetres of the world record.
|
| [...]
|
| Could the spaniards have won the 1956 Olympic javelin title?
| Yes and no. Had they kept the style secret till Melbourne they
| would certainly have taken the javelin world by surprise.
| However at the beginning of October, a month and a half before
| the Games, Salcedo used the new style during a competition in
| Paris. This opened the way for experimentation with the new
| technique to non-spanish athletes but also alerted the
| instances of the international federation who by the end of the
| month had modified the rules so as to ban the rotational
| technique. However, even if they had kept the secret, the
| athletes from Spain would not have had the occasion to throw at
| Melbourne since Franco's government had, at the last moment,
| decided to boycott the Games._
| jimbokun wrote:
| "For example, there's "Felix Erausquin""
|
| And yet you know his name.
| z9znz wrote:
| I'm sorry, I really did try to read your link. But I laughed
| too much at this:
|
| "came with the work of Dick Held (brother of the world
| recordman Bud Held) who introduced first the hollow-wood
| javelins"
|
| Really, it doesn't matter how you throw your dagger as long
| as you hit the target.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Have you watched a sports broadcast before? They frequently
| include references to illegal techniques and the people
| they're named after.
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Roy "Horsecollar" Williams really missed out. He broke
| quite a tidy sum of bones with that move. Dirty? Hell yeah.
| owlninja wrote:
| This is the first one that came to mind for me (even if
| it's unofficial). Same as the "Tuck Rule" means Brady
| rule.
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Yeah the Brady rule (made an angry face at Brady, 5
| yards) is such a wonky thing that can be misused.
| Horsecollar in the other hand...I think I've seen a
| couple guys thrown down by jersey alone so yeah no need
| to grab pads in that battle. At the time though when I
| saw it live, I would say "you test Roy downfield..."
| mdaEyebot wrote:
| It is always fun to see a strange rule, though, and ask
| yourself why something so daft was actually written down.
| dwighttk wrote:
| Reminds me of https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tonxd_9_lY
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| >For example, there's "Felix Erausquin", who invented a
| javelin throwing technique you probably never heard of.
|
| But who's infinitely more known than his contemporaries who
| didn't do some interesting footnote-worthy thing like that
| and therefore get mentioned far less.
| djmips wrote:
| Talk about disproving your point with an example made to
| support your point!
|
| I bet most do not know any of the javelin winners from this
| last Olympics or any historical greats but now we know the
| awesome Felix Erausquin!
| tshaddox wrote:
| Exactly. I have, as of a moment ago, read exactly one
| article about javelin throwing in my life, and it was about
| that guy and the throwing technique he invented.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| I bet a lot of javelin people heard this legend and then
| spent time looking it up and messing about with the move
| for fun.
| derefr wrote:
| The immortality comes from the fact that anyone who is
| reading the rulebook, and gets curious about the origin of
| the rule created to forbid your actions, will research that+,
| and learn your story.
|
| Sometimes, the rule itself is even named after the person --
| so your name is right there _in the rulebook_ forevermore.
| They might not know who you were or what you did, but they
| know you did something stupid enough to require a change to
| the sport.
|
| + Which is apparently something sports nerds do a lot. Here's
| a YouTube channel sub-series just about the origins of weird
| sports rules! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJiNU9JCLpM&lis
| t=PLUXSZMIiUf...
| Tomte wrote:
| Thanks! just yesterday I tried to find https://m.youtube.co
| m/watch?v=8tonxd_9_lY&list=PLUXSZMIiUfFS... and spent
| several minutes in vain before I gave up. Now you're
| posting the playlist hours later!
| taeric wrote:
| On the flip side, the common maneuver for the pole vault is
| relatively new, and few realize someone basically invented
| it.
| bnert wrote:
| legend
| codeulike wrote:
| Not knowing much about nascar or that GameCube game, I watched
| the video hoping to see someone fire a blue shell or get a star
| boost or something. Slightly disappointed.
| jaimex2 wrote:
| The clip needs a Daytona USA "Time Extension!" over it.
| drewbeck wrote:
| Is there some specific advantage gained irl by hugging the wall
| like this? I can't tell from the video what he achieved by it.
| tofuahdude wrote:
| He went faster through the curve and passed several drivers, to
| the point that he qualified for the next race when he otherwise
| wouldn't have.
| denimnerd42 wrote:
| he was significantly faster than the track lap record too
| bitL wrote:
| ...which was set long time ago with significantly more
| powerful cars.
| Lammy wrote:
| New lap record is 18.845 seconds. Old lap record was Joey
| Logano's 18.898 in 2014: https://joeylogano.com/logano-
| sets-track-record-starts-third...
| jameskilton wrote:
| He drove at full speed through a curve, letting him pass like 8
| cars who were taking the turn normally.
| dan_pixelflow wrote:
| It was the last corner of the last lap - hugging the wall
| damages your car but because he didn't actually need to tap the
| brakes he just kept on going, round the wall faster than the
| others.
| mcv wrote:
| If this means you can take the corner faster, why not just do
| it all the time and make sure the side of your car is strong
| enough to withstand it?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| The real answer is it only makes for good entertainment
| once, so it gets banned immediately.
|
| If it had a real potential to spice the game (like allowing
| foot hits in volleyball) it would be integrated in the
| rules with some limitation (for instance you can only do it
| if you're way behind)
| nradov wrote:
| It's not possible to build a car that strong under Nascar
| rules. The cars are mostly standardized with only minor
| differences allowed between teams.
| z9znz wrote:
| Does Nascar disallow mounting a few luggage wheels on the
| right side of your car? :)
| p1necone wrote:
| I for one am very excited about real life Tamiya car
| racing.
| nradov wrote:
| Ha ha, but seriously that wouldn't pass the pre-race
| template inspection.
| z9znz wrote:
| But sirs, we like to travel with it on its side in the
| trailer so we can transport it more easily.
| moron4hire wrote:
| It probably would violate the external profile standards,
| even if the regulators wouldn't understand the purpose on
| first seeing it.
| thereisnospork wrote:
| How much camber is allowed on the right wheels though,
| can you go full hella-flush? Asking for a friend :)
| z9znz wrote:
| I considered this first. But I imagine the camber change
| would ruin the insides of the tires so fast that it
| wouldn't be worth the wall rolling benefits...
|
| Perhaps a better idea would be some kind of aerodynamic
| change which would result in a trapped pressure area on
| the right side when it is close to the wall. Maybe some
| kind of concave side.
| thereisnospork wrote:
| An F1 style 'wall-effect' skirt with a side mounted
| exhaust would do the trick I think. Have to stay on
| throttle to keep off the wall.
| thrwyoilarticle wrote:
| Camber increases as the suspension compresses...
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Have a crew member kick in the right place to create a
| vortex gap and Eraknoplan it?
| akozak wrote:
| THIS is the hacker mindset.
| christkv wrote:
| Probably why they will soon make a rule against it :)
| londons_explore wrote:
| You could even put two little extra wheels on the door
| handles...
| fendy3002 wrote:
| We mini 4WD now
| tmh88j wrote:
| I know you're joking, but Nascar actually uses some cool
| tech [1] to make a 3D model of each car on-site to ensure
| they're in spec with regulations for size, aero, etc...
| Here [2] it is in action at the last Daytona 500
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-X_eujF8Z8 [1]
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Laet8W8pn_k [2]
| bluedino wrote:
| Probably need to change the wall as well
| liveoneggs wrote:
| one loose panel or an open exit gate or any other of little
| things and it would have been a serious accident
| brookst wrote:
| That was my first thought, but that whole wall should be
| able to sustain a full on impact from multiple cars in a
| wreck if there are loose panels or gates it is already a
| serious failure.
|
| Not to say it couldn't happen, just that it's reasonable
| to assume the wall is designed to support more force than
| this.
| fendy3002 wrote:
| A special move being done in a crucial moment is
| interesting / amazing.
|
| If it's too effective and everyone start doing it, it loses
| its charm.
|
| Imagine if in Dota every game only consist of 3 tanks and 2
| dps carries because it's too effective, it'll get boring
| soon.
| ISL wrote:
| Until someone gets hurt, this is kinda like a slapshot in
| hockey.
|
| You can go to the inside, as is traditional, or you can
| go to the wall and risk it all...
| stubish wrote:
| Do you see how fast he is going compared to the other cars?
| They are going as fast as they can without losing grip and
| spinning out as they go round the corner. He has the wall
| supporting him around the corner and could floor the
| accelerator in top gear.
| chihuahua wrote:
| Thanks for explaining that - I saw the video and was
| wondering "why are the other cars going so slow, is there a
| traffic jam?"
| mcv wrote:
| These cars don't seem to stick to the ground like they do
| in F1, so I guess they need to slow down a lot for the
| corner just like regular cars. Except for the guy who uses
| the wall to push him through the corner.
| SilasX wrote:
| Okay but why didn't anyone try this before? They just didn't
| think of it? What made it a good idea this time but not any
| other time if it's faster?
| sokoloff wrote:
| The 2022 "NextGen" cars are significantly stiffer than
| prior cars; it's possible that they are stiff enough to be
| better able to run the full half lap without getting stuck,
| but I more suspect no one seriously considered it.
|
| Even with Nextgen cars, it's a last half-lap move at most.
| stubish wrote:
| I also suspect nobody seriously considered it or thought
| they could get away with it. If they don't add rules to
| stop it, you will see people welding bumpers or even
| wheels to the sides of their cars to take advantage.
| otherme123 wrote:
| IMHO they should rule it out changing the wall
| construction in some way that it no longer gives an
| advantage. E.g. attaching TecPro barriers to it.
| joshjob42 wrote:
| I think they should design the walls to make this easier
| and folks should put wheels on the side. Let's go crazy,
| that was awesome.
| neurostimulant wrote:
| If everyone has side wheel, it would get boring fast. The
| one that can hug the wall first win.
| swader999 wrote:
| It'll be too hard on the driver's brains as well
| bombcar wrote:
| Just race in a giant sewer pipe, I guess, heh.
| Balgair wrote:
| Its _insanely_ dangerous. Really just neigh-criminally
| stupid.
|
| Any little lip in the siding on the wall could have caused
| him to flip or twirl about or get speared or launched his
| engine all over the place. The walls are designed to keep
| people safe, including the fans. They are fantastically
| well engineered and made. But, if he had caught the wall
| wrong and was catapulted into the stands, he may have
| killed a lot of people, let alone the danger to other
| drivers, let alone to himself. The various safety systems,
| of which the wall was but one, aren't made for that move
| and could very easily have been compromised in very bad
| ways.
|
| I mean, it was _awesome_ to watch, just incredibly cool. I
| 'm glad it worked for him, he's in the history books for
| that move for sure. I can totally see NASCAR evolving to
| utilize that move in the future.
|
| But he put many lives at more risk than anyone was
| expecting in such a kinetic sport.
| swader999 wrote:
| I think just this year the body design on the cars became
| strong enough to try this. He also risked a yellow flag
| being thrown which would have disqualified any passing
| afterward. But they weren't quick enough with that lol.
| ehnto wrote:
| The obvious one is that it ruins the car, at the end of the
| video you see his car is stopped on the track, presumably
| he broke some control arms and can't drive it back to the
| pits.
|
| So it works once, then you're out, and you have to hope you
| pull it off safely. It was a massive risk, not all courses
| have a wall that wouldn't have wrecked the car. He mentions
| that part in the video.
| modeless wrote:
| He actually drove back to the pits OK, amazingly enough:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27S42Y5km4I
| ehnto wrote:
| That is pretty crazy. I can't imagine he kept his wheel
| alignment which would have been impactful if he had to
| keep racing, but it's impressive the suspension arms
| survived that. Maybe the new gen cage contacts before the
| wheels and they took most of the force?
| modeless wrote:
| I wonder if they modified the car for this at all? I've
| gotta imagine that he at least discussed the possibility
| of doing this with his crew before he went and did it.
| swader999 wrote:
| He did discuss it with his crew with five laps to go, so
| it wasn't spur of the moment but pretty close.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Getting into the wall usually means a flat tire or at least
| being slowed down considerably. I don't think you could do
| this on a superspeedway track because the forces and
| friction would just destroy the car before the turn was
| over. On a short track it looks to be a different story.
| hammock wrote:
| I get that he's not going to slide off the track, but I don't
| understand how he wouldn't be slowed by the friction of the
| side of his car against the wall, though
| bagels wrote:
| Speed through the turn is limited by lateral forces. The
| wall can provide more lateral force than the tires can.
| Yes, there's friction, but the cars are fiberglass, it's
| pretty slippery against a smooth painted wall (and they
| have a ton of power).
| LanceH wrote:
| During the course of the race bits of rubber come off the
| tires and form what is basically a rubbery gravel. The
| racing line is cleared of it by the passage of the cars.
| Get down too low or up too high and you start sliding like
| you would on gravel. So he went high, accepted the
| slippery-ness and used the wall to keep him going the right
| direction as he kept the pedal down.
|
| On the racing line, even with a clean track, they still
| need grip to turn -- he didn't.
|
| Also to note that as it is the end of the race, they aren't
| on fresh tires and probably most/all of the field didn't
| have the full grip they would during other portions of the
| race.
| crooked-v wrote:
| He is slowed, but the other drivers are slowed more by the
| need to keep traction in the turn.
| ehsankia wrote:
| nitro_force - friction_force >
| max_force_before_you_slip_on_that_turn
| swader999 wrote:
| I bet he was close to passing out on that turn, much like
| a fighter jet pilot can experience when they pull too
| many g's in a turn.
| stubish wrote:
| He _is_ slowed down by the friction of the side of his car
| against the wall. And probably by bits of his car being
| torn away as it slowly disintegrates. But the engines on
| these cars are powerful and can easily overcome those
| effects.
| shultays wrote:
| They should add wheels on sides as well to reduce lateral
| wall frictions!
| snappr021 wrote:
| 2 Skateboard wheels embedded in the bodywork, to touch
| the wall front and rear, and off to the races.
| mcv wrote:
| I'm not sure small wheels would really be an improvement,
| and large wheels would weigh a lot. So it's entirely
| possible that a smooth surface is actually the best
| approach here.
| ElijahLynn wrote:
| I scrolled all the way down, collapsing all the top level
| comments just to find your question, so thanks for posting
| it!!! This part of the discussion is what interests me the
| most.
| dandare wrote:
| Any irregularity or structural weakness in that wall could have
| killed him and drivers around him.
| prego_xo wrote:
| I think walls that are made with racecars hitting them at top
| speed in mind would be able to handle a distributed stress.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Martinsville has a SAFER Barrier, which "consists of a high-
| strength, tubular steel skin that distributes the impact load
| to energy-absorbing foam cartridges", installed along the
| outside of the track: https://galvanizeit.org/project-
| gallery/nascar-safer-barrier
|
| Still a risky move for a number of reasons, but wrecks are
| expected and happen all the time in NASCAR races.
| dirtyid wrote:
| I'm assuming it's just some cosmetic damage to the bodywork? What
| is the actual cost benefit analysis for a move like this? $10,000
| gamble? $100,000?
| volleygman180 wrote:
| Just wait until military soldiers start camping inside the corner
| of a room, or jumping and prancing as they come around a corner
| while in battle.
| prego_xo wrote:
| Imagine the anger as some 18 year-old from the U.S dropshots
| your best friend.
| skellington wrote:
| Hope he got max benefit from that because this definitely will be
| against the rules very soon. :)
|
| But it was awesome.
| dncornholio wrote:
| In every form of racing this guy would be called a cheater, but
| NASCAR is different. NASCAR isn't about the racing, it's about
| entertainment.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| That is so not true. The spirit of motorsport across so _so_
| many forms is poking and prodding at the limits of the rules.
|
| From "$500" 24 Hours of Lemons racers that intentionally start
| with negative laps to go over $500 to most banned F1 tech (99%
| of it was stuff that wasn't explicitly against the rules when
| created: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/10-craziest-
| technologies-...)
|
| Once the tech is banned sometimes clever cheats show up to keep
| using it, but that's not what happened here.
| w-ll wrote:
| This is also the shortest short track NASCAR races, its in
| Martinsville, VA. Known as "The paperclip".
|
| This was a lot fun to watch. #1 Ross Chastain had to get more
| points than #11 Denny Hamlin to qualify. He was in 10th I think
| when he went full send with the wall, putting an arms length in
| front of Denny at the very last second to finish #5th.
|
| Short track races are fun because the do have a lot of rubbing,
| but they dont nearly go as fast as the super-speedways. And just
| generally you dont see something like this. I understand NASCAR
| is gonna make a rule to prevent it, but you know they are gonna
| promote the heck outta this clip.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinsville_Speedway
| carabiner wrote:
| > went full send with the wall
|
| How did the term "full send" come about? Why is everyone saying
| it these days?
| Moto7451 wrote:
| I think I heard it from the Sky F1 commentators first. It's
| making its way through the rest of Motorsport from there I'd
| guess. Netflix's Drive to Survive series has had a really
| profound effect on Formula 1 in the US.
| darkcha0s wrote:
| Was going to say...didn't Dany Ric say "sometimes you just
| gotta lick the stamp and send it" ?
| slavboj wrote:
| The proximal cause for a lot of people is military in origin
| ("send it" as slang for "fire", especially in a pseudo sniper
| context), and military usage probably derives from crossover
| with extreme sports community. "Military in origin" at this
| point also encompasses secondary media like COD.
| yxwvut wrote:
| I'm 99% sure that it originated in climbing - it's been a
| term since the 80s at least (short for ascend - to 'send' a
| climbing route is to climb it successfully without falling or
| weighting the rope). Outside climbing I first noticed its use
| in the mid/late '00s in mountain biking (which has a fair bit
| of overlapping user base), and then in other extreme sports.
| In the jump from climbing to other extreme sports it became a
| shorthand for 'commit and do something difficult/risky
| successfully' (similar in spirit to its meaning in climbing
| if not literally given the etymology).
| killjoywashere wrote:
| I think it has to be mountain biking. It's the perfect
| thought to have in your head when you're looking at
| something that is potentially crazy, but you know the laws
| of physics are _almost certainly_ going to have your back
| as long as your technique is good.
|
| First time I heard it I was near the bottom of the UC Santa
| Cruz trails into Highway 9 contemplating this section
| called "the poop chute" which gets steeper and rockier
| until you hit a 2-3 foot drop among boulders and the only
| solution is to have enough speed that you end up in the
| road. And by "the road" I mean the apex of a blind hairpin
| turn of Highway 9.
|
| I had been out of the sport for 20 years but kept riding
| road and my buddy got me back in with a sweet deal on a YT
| Jeffsy we kitted up with spare parts from all his friends.
| Carbon everything. A bike that did not exist in any
| dimension when I stopped riding.
|
| Well, this was probably my seventh or eighth weekend trying
| to negotiate this chute and there are these 17-20 year old
| kids at the top and I ask them how to do this. And this
| guy, with all the confidence of Santa Cruz and youth says,
| with a big, easy grin, "Yeah, it's just hang way back and
| full send." And I looked at him. And I looked at the chute.
| And back at him. And my brain, married with two kids, was
| like "I see. Ok." And I did it.
|
| Full send. Was exactly what my brain needed to think. It
| works _weirdly_ well.
| daguava wrote:
| YEET, as it were.
| dietketchup wrote:
| That's well and good, but the term comes from climbing.
| To ascend. You send a route. Skiiers and eventually
| mountain bikers started to use it as well. I think it's
| just a ubiquitous extreme sports term at this point.
| carabiner wrote:
| in climbing "send" is used in other forms... sending
| temps = cold enough for the rubber to stick well, usually
| below 50degF. getting sendy = eager, anxious to climb.
| sending shoes = aggressive pair of climbing shoes with
| downturned toes.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| sending juice = dirty water left behind after washing
| your ropes
| sbm_au wrote:
| To add to the other replies, there's two etymologies that I
| know of.
|
| The first and most common explanation, is that when a film
| crew working with an extreme sports athlete would
| successfully capture a moment on film, they would mail the
| tape in to the film editor or marketing department -
| literally send the tape. So when they were doing lots of
| takes, before rolling the cameras everyone would encourage
| each other to "send it this time".
|
| (The term "beta" referring to detailed description of a
| location or technique, came about similarly, as it refers to
| passing around a literal Betamax tape of another person
| performing that stunt or rock climb)
|
| The alternate explanation is that it is simply short for
| "ascend", as in exhorting a rock climber to "ascend it".
| bmitc wrote:
| This is definitely not the origin of the phrase, but the
| thing that brought it into my vernacular was Larry Enticer:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuLFvalhnQ
|
| It was one of those things that after hearing it, it just
| made sense. I probably heard it elsewhere before that, but I
| just always remember Larry Enticer cementing it. (I'm not
| sure about the date on that video. I remember seeing it a
| long time ago.)
| arreyder wrote:
| "[I'm still going to|You know I'm just gonna] Send it"
| originated with Larry (the) Enticer:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOUgwsQ_hM I'm pretty sure
| "full send" evolved out of this. He's a brilliant nut job. :)
| Etheryte wrote:
| The phrase is way way older than that.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelk
|
| > Nelk is known for popularizing and later trademarking the
| slang term "Full Send" (stylized as FULL SEND) which Forgeard
| defined as meaning "any activity you do, give it your
| absolute best".
| jayofdoom wrote:
| This term was used well before 2010... that person might
| have the trademark but it was used in extreme sports (e.g.
| skateboarding type events) since the 1990s.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Full Send predates them by at least a decade. It's a very
| short walk from "send it", as in I'm going to send it,
| which has been part of that culture since at least 2000.
| Fezzik wrote:
| A point of note: the phrase was popular in the
| climbing/skiing/snowboarding/mountain biking communities
| years and years before the frat boys appropriated it for
| activities mostly pertaining to drinking a lot and being a
| degenerate.
| zeven7 wrote:
| I'm sure that's true, while at the same time it could
| help answer some of what the parent was asking "Why am I
| hearing this term more and more?"
| rzzzt wrote:
| I thought it's a skateboard thing, but apparently its roots
| can be traced back to rock climbing:
| https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/send-it/
| brailsafe wrote:
| I've only heard it used ironically in skateboarding to make
| fun of anyone who uses it unironically.
|
| But skateboarders do sometimes say "full commit" or
| something like that.
| jayofdoom wrote:
| Full send comes from extreme sports-style events originally,
| basically meaning "go 100% with no fear of the
| repercussions". In racing, it usually means going into a
| corner so fast you're basically risking or guaranteeing you
| won't make the turn safely.
| [deleted]
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| It was used sporadically in sports contexts, usually the kind
| of sports where you go flying and get injured if you F-up
| (skiing, skateboarding, etc). It gained mainstream popularity
| when a dude with a snowmobile used the phrase in a viral
| video in the 2010s.
| banannaise wrote:
| I'm speculating, but here goes:
|
| "Send it" has been in use in sports for awhile, and the usage
| is literal: cause the thing to go, and from that point it's
| between physics and whatever god(s) you pray to. Typically
| used for the act of passing/shooting.
|
| "Full <thing> mode" has also been in use for awhile, meaning
| an extreme or complete version of a tactic or state of being.
|
| Combine the two, and you get "full send mode", where you make
| a move that completely removes your control from that point
| forward.
|
| Then you drop the last word for brevity, and you have people
| going full send.
| ddoolin wrote:
| Well...I'd say the LA Coliseum has it beat out for the shortest
| track now :-) But I guess I wouldn't really count that one
| either, for reasons.
|
| Incredibly fun to watch. I work for the #11 (and others) so
| this was very disappointing from that angle (particularly since
| his record at Phoenix is pretty good) but overall it was such a
| fun move that highlights a good attitude for drivers & teams to
| have, but is also just plain entertaining.
| rektide wrote:
| We used to call it "wall speed". "Wall speed ahead!"
| bitL wrote:
| Forza Horizon 4/5 still requires them to win over unbeatable-
| level drivatar opponents.
| yalogin wrote:
| This takes a lot of skill to execute. The level of commitment to
| it amazing. Any small mistake would have ricocheted the car into
| traffic.
| aasasd wrote:
| This site has a weird cookie consent dialog:
|
| > _Match and combine offline data sources: always active_
|
| > _Link different devices: always active_
| orbital-decay wrote:
| Crazy. It used to work in many old games; it was a routine trick
| in Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed. But it was a game physics
| quirk that propelled you forward with much more power than your
| engine was capable of.
| daguava wrote:
| This is one of those events that I'm of several minds about: 1)
| This is what keeps people outside the scene interested and taking
| note - NASCAR absolutely should publicize and play up this
| moment, it brings a lot of folks to the sport. It was incredibly
| awesome.
|
| 2) A lot of times something like this is how you form some new
| regulations - it's truly one of those "You know, this was
| excellent but we can't do it again" situations.
|
| 3) The best course forward is to leave it alone and legal in this
| moment, publicize it, but also treat it as the formation of some
| new rules.
|
| Side note, Nascar 2005, which he referenced as one of his
| inspirations for this, is one of my favorite gamecube games. I
| remember picking it up and playing it for hours on end, the
| soundtrack was awesome, and it didn't feel like an EA cash-grab
| at the time. Man how times have changed...
|
| Edit: Extra info - the 11 of Hamlin has previously made it into
| the chase for the champion ship by _intentionally wrecking
| drivers_ , so by and large a huge part of the fan base believes
| he got what was coming to him.
| mawise wrote:
| > A lot of times something like this is how you form some new
| regulations - it's truly one of those "You know, this was
| excellent but we can't do it again" situations.
|
| That's exactly what happened in the cycling world when UCI
| decided they needed to ban the "supertuck"[1]
|
| [1]: https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a35566614/uci-supertuck-
| ban...
| 1-more wrote:
| My tinfoil hat theory is that it's a handout to manufacturers
| to sell dropper posts to road cyclists. Aero profile dropper?
| Money printer.
| paimoe wrote:
| > A lot of times something like this is how you form some new
| regulations - it's truly one of those "You know, this was
| excellent but we can't do it again" situations.
|
| Reminds me of an England v Italy rugby match a few years back
| where Italy completely abused the offside rule that resulted in
| England, seemingly, wanting the rules changed after that match
| (though Eng still won).
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/26/england-sugges...
| joshmlewis wrote:
| It's definitely being played up so I think they did something
| right. My friends (who aren't Nascar fans) sent it to me, it
| was all over Twitter and Facebook, and now here in the #1 spot
| on the site I least expected it to show up.
| werid wrote:
| saw it on tiktok from official nascar account
| BooneJS wrote:
| You could penalize it but if he had to do it on the next turn
| his sidewalls would have blown out. It's definitely something
| to add to the end of race all-chips-in bag of tricks.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| While they could argue it's a safety issue, at the same time
| it's a risky move, and it could end up in the car crashing and
| being out of the race entirely, so it's a bit self-managing.
|
| I mean if they start equipping cars with side wheels then it
| becomes a different matter, but I'm pretty sure the cars are
| already tightly regulated.
| backtoyoujim wrote:
| The sidewall of the track should have some way to impart boost.
| muraiki wrote:
| Formula E has "attack mode" sections that temporarily boost
| the electric car's power by 30kW:
| https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/championship/attack-mode
| dotBen wrote:
| Yes, and if you are an actual motorsport fan creating a
| 'mario kart boost' mode makes your sport look dumb.
|
| At least the way F1 does KERS is more controlled and
| logical (maximum amount of charge = maximum amount of
| additional horsepower you can deploy per lap)
| tempestn wrote:
| DRS is a bit more of a parallel since when you're allowed
| to use it is completely artificial to create competition.
| But still in that case it's at least all decided on the
| track. Having drivers get a boost based on fan voting is
| stupid and does indeed cost the sport credibility.
| rrix2 wrote:
| everyone has the same additional power allocation and
| everyone has to go through attack mode twice in a race --
| it's a strategic call of when you want to use the
| additional power, and when you can stand to lose a second
| or two going far off the optimal line to activate it.
| this is essentially similar to the overtake system in
| indycar or super formula. it's certainly not much worse
| than DRS.
|
| now, the "fanboost" which gave certain drivers (almost
| always the same handful for years one end) an additional
| "push to pass" option based on social media voting --
| that shit sucked. it's also gone next season.
| jsight wrote:
| Oh, I thought he was talking about fan boost. That was
| such a terrible idea, I'm glad it is gone.
| dotBen wrote:
| Yes I assumed we were talking about fan boost. Glad to
| hear it's going/gone, I don't follow FE closely enough to
| have known it's been discontinued.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Motorsports are drifting towards inevitable real-life
| F-Zero and Wipeout style electric hovercar racing. Don't
| fight the future.
| notThrowingAway wrote:
| What I wouldn't give to see a Redline-style race in real
| life
| thereddaikon wrote:
| I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean super un
| safe cross country races? Its called rallying.
|
| Do you mean impractically long drag races where lol turns
| out I wasn't flooring it and now I'm really flooring it?
| That aspect of redline doesn't make any sense.
|
| Or maybe just the competitors build their own cars and
| anything goes? I could get behind that. Racing seemed
| more pure back when it was dudes who built their own cars
| in their own garage.
| birracerveza wrote:
| Well, it's still that. But now the dudes have a crapton
| of money.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/328460/Redline/
| Moto7451 wrote:
| That's not too far off from how Darlington and a few other
| tracks work. If you "ride the cushion" of air between the car
| and the wall you can drive faster than being a few inches
| away from the wall or rubbing the wall.
| tempestn wrote:
| I definitely don't think you want people doing this every
| race, but you could leave it alone for now and see if that
| becomes an issue before worrying about it too much. It's
| possible that now that people know it's a possibility,
| they'll simply defend the outside line out of the last
| corner, which could shut it down fairly effectively.
| aasasd wrote:
| Seems to be almost exactly what happened in one race,
| except the dude behind actually rode the wall:
| https://racingnews.co/2021/09/06/kyle-larson-attempts-
| nascar... (from another comment in this thread).
| Moto7451 wrote:
| Running the cushion is not what Ross Chastain did. At
| Darlington and a few other tracks you ride as close as
| you can to the wall without much more than the occasional
| tap. If your paint is scraped up but the body panels
| aren't bent you did it correctly. Many years ago they
| used to put 2x4s in the fender walls to protect them but
| now this requires car control.
| PointyFluff wrote:
| baby wrote:
| I think people should have the right to enjoy something
| that's unrelated to politics without bringing politics into
| the mix
| BadOakOx wrote:
| > 2) A lot of times something like this is how you form some
| new regulations - it's truly one of those "You know, this was
| excellent but we can't do it again" situations.
|
| I don't watch Nascar, but as from comments from other places,
| there is nothing new with it. It has been known and attempted
| by others now and then [1]. It is a high risk high reward move
| and this time it turned out good.
|
| If it wasn't regulated so far, I don't think it will be.
|
| [1] e.g. from just a year ago:
| https://racingnews.co/2021/09/06/kyle-larson-attempts-nascar...
| banannaise wrote:
| Interestingly, this weekend's wall ride had a similar result
| - a car ahead stayed high, forcing him to slow down and
| preventing the pass. The difference is that in this case, he
| had already passed five cars, and passing the sixth was
| irrelevant in the standings result.
| wiredfool wrote:
| There was the 3" fuel line issue a decade or more ago.
|
| When limiting the size of the fuel cell to x gallons, they
| neglected to specify the size of the fuel line. More fuel
| capacity is an advantage late in the race, allowing for the
| potential to not have to pit for a splash of gas or have to
| drive as conservatively.
|
| Well, a 3" line has a couple of gallon capacity if it extends
| the length of the car, and at one point, someone won because
| of it, and then had it discovered in the technical
| inspection.
| arwineap wrote:
| You're thinking of Smokey Yunick, and that's just a taste
| of his antics
|
| Check out the "reverse torque special" where he reversed
| the direction of his engine, so the tq pull would naturally
| turn him in the correct direction for nascar
|
| Or when he modified the roof and raised the floor to get a
| more aerodynamic car
|
| Or when he qualified with wheel covers, and cut them out
| before the race ( rules didn't stipulate you had to cut
| them before qualifying )
|
| The guy was a legend, and I think racing would be much more
| interesting if we had more of him
| mindcrime wrote:
| Definitely a Smokey Yunick special there. That whole idea
| is so iconic / infamous in racing that it's directly
| referenced in the movie Days of Thunder in a scene where
| Harry Hogge is talking to the car he's started building
| and says something like "I'm going to give you a fuel
| line that will hold an extra gallon of fuel".
|
| They didn't mention Smokey by name, but it was clearly an
| allusion to that.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Or placed an inflated basketball in the fuel tank when it
| was going to be measured for capacity, only to deflate
| the basketball for the race.
|
| Or load the car with cold (more dense) fuel.
|
| Or (allegedly) race a 15/16ths scale car with a matching
| 15/16ths scale street car strategically parked in the
| track parking lot so the scrutineers could compare
| against a stock car and see that it matched.
|
| Or built a race engine with the correct size cylinder in
| the easiest to measure location and oversized cylinders
| in every other position.
|
| Other racers had special lead-filled radios and
| overweight helmets that would be in the car for tech,
| then get changed out before qualifying. Or lead shot
| filled in the frame rails and a wax seal or threaded
| fitting to keep it in. Darrell Waltrip tells a hilarious
| story where the threaded seal was in the jack point and
| NASCAR jacked the car to go look for it. Moving bars of
| Mallory (tungsten, basically) from the right to left
| after passing tech. Another racer was caught with a 22
| gallon tank (20 was the limit at the time), apologized
| and agreed to change it. (He changed it to a 28 gallon
| tank.)
| Shocka1 wrote:
| I have some family members that are huge fans, so I follow
| somewhat. It should be noted with your link that Darlington
| is a much faster and lengthier track than Martinsville. At
| Darlington, Larson was very close to Hamlin when he initiated
| the wall ride halfway through the corner - he may have gained
| a half second or so, not several, like at Martinsville. I see
| this as more of a Richmond/Martinsville short track strategy.
| So now that we know it's possible at Martinsville, it'll be
| great to see what happens next time they visit or on the next
| short track race.
|
| I personally don't see this happening a lot. I raced
| motorcycles at the professional level for several years. If
| someone had continued doing something that gave them a 3 to 5
| second advantage on the last lap, the rest of the paddock
| would have gotten tired of it pretty quickly. Although I
| think it's a hilarious situation, I would imagine if it
| continues to happen that the drivers doing it will start to
| feel pressure from the other drivers.
|
| If it gets to where this is happening all the time, I don't
| see the series not making a rule against it, but they are
| probably gladly accepting the needed publicity at this point.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I think you'll see the defensive line move up the track to
| block this on exit, which will open up the possibility for
| someone to get under the defending car, which should make
| the racing tactics more interesting in the last lap.
|
| This tactic will wear the car out far too much to be used
| on multiple laps, so it may just get race fans to
| experience more excitement and interest on the last lap.
| Shocka1 wrote:
| Sure, but a driver isn't blocking the guys right behind
| them. Someone isn't going to win the race from 10 cars
| back, but anyone three seconds behind the leader can pull
| it off. From what I saw, a driver would easily be able to
| pass the driver one to three cars in front. So blocking
| the outside on exit might work for the guy coming from 5
| to 10 spots back, but the leader will lose every time to
| the guys directly behind. And if the driver directly in
| front goes to the outside on entry to block, then a dive
| bomb from the person behind on the inside will work just
| fine too. I'm not sure why anyone should take the regular
| line at that point. What's stopping every car in the top
| 10 from going around the outside bouncing off the wall,
| especially when there is money on the line?
|
| At the moment I'm looking forward to the last corner/last
| lap of one of these short track races with a lot of money
| or championship at stake. I picture it playing out
| exactly like the first corner in a Forza online
| multiplayer race. One or two players staying in the race
| line, two other drivers dive bombing, four others
| bouncing off the wall on the outside, resulting in a mess
| of fiberglass, tears, and mad drivers. I just hope a fan
| in the stands doesn't catch a loose part.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > What's stopping every car in the top 10 from going
| around the outside bouncing off the wall, especially when
| there is money on the line?
|
| Nothing at all. Everyone will end up doing it on the last
| half lap at short tracks and no one will have an
| advantage, lots of cars will get torn up, and owners will
| ask NASCAR to stop making them tear up a $250K racecar
| every short track race.
| andirk wrote:
| "Person stuns other person for weapon with GTA IV move"
| hot_gril wrote:
| I don't think you can ride the wall in the old Nascar video games
| cause it slows you down too much, plus there's no nitro, but it's
| definitely a thing in other car games.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I worked at Papyrus (maker of Indycar and NASCAR games in the
| mid-late 90s and several alumni founded iRacing).
|
| I'd introduced arcade mode and double-tap-hold to do a burnout
| (intended to make tight pit-out and 180deg turns after wreck
| easier) to the Playstation version.
|
| Inadvertently, I neglected to reduce forward traction during
| the burnout, so a burnout was the fastest way to do a standing
| start (by virtue of getting into the higher power RPM band).
| Made for interesting standing start races. Burnout made it into
| our "Hawaii" multiplayer code and NASCAR2 code; I don't
| remember if Arcade mode (looser but more catchable cars and
| much better brakes) did or not.
| BooneJS wrote:
| I played a lot of NASCAR 4 and Gran Prix Legends with a
| leather steering wheel. Great fun.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I left just as we were developing GPL. Even with a good
| force-feedback setup, pedals, and a high frame rate, that
| game drove home* just how hard those GP cars were to drive.
|
| * pun unintended
| hnthrowaway8251 wrote:
| "Every Angle of Ross Chastain's Video Game Move"
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3yNc5EasW8
| crawsome wrote:
| monkpit wrote:
| https://archive.ph/2022.10.31-234933/https://www.nintendolif...
| choonway wrote:
| does this count as a zero day? hardly going to see it being
| allowed in further races.
| Lammy wrote:
| I like the other drivers' reactions:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHFhTB2h9tk
| x0x0 wrote:
| at 3:15 "I can't believe what I just saw... that's literally
| the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life... that was
| straight video game but hey man, way to never quit."
| aidenn0 wrote:
| "that was incredible" "rule against it next week"
| mattm wrote:
| "If I had known that would work I would've done that the last 8
| laps"
| marcyb5st wrote:
| Oh, I wonder if in his head he thought something along these
| lines: https://theawesomedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/im-
| go...
| jjallen wrote:
| Have they banned this yet?
|
| I would have been concerned about the integrity of the wall.
|
| But then he woudld have exposed that the wall was pretty weak.
| swader999 wrote:
| Apparently he took his hands off the steering wheel too while
| riding the wall.
| bluedino wrote:
| Kind of expect Cleetus McFarland to try this now
| seydor wrote:
| kind of surprised nobody tried this before?
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