[HN Gopher] Taking Lichess to the next level
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Taking Lichess to the next level
Author : akbarnama
Score : 385 points
Date : 2022-10-29 05:39 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (lichess.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (lichess.org)
| naveen99 wrote:
| can lichess or chess.com add go please ?
| dsjoerg wrote:
| What do you think of the existing go offerings online?
| naveen99 wrote:
| Not as good as chess.com
|
| Go world is mostly on websites only (not mobile native apps).
| Also the largest servers are In Chinese with minimal English
| translation (fox).
|
| No standard equivalent of stockfish engine integration (while
| we are here, stockfish please add go support).
|
| On baduk subreddit, top recommendation is goquest, which is
| like flappybird compared to super Mario brothers.
|
| No 9x9 ladder climbs on YouTube to learn from like chess
| rating climbs by GM's like levy and Aman.
| sunsetSamurai wrote:
| have you tried https://online-go.com/? it looks very featureful
| strenholme wrote:
| It would probably be a separate site like https://lishogi.org
| or https://lidraughts.org (both based on the Lichess engine).
| Or, it might be added to https://playstrategy.org/ (which is
| the Lichess engine with a bunch of other abstract games added)
| umanwizard wrote:
| Not sure why you've been downvoted. It's not an unreasonable
| suggestion; chess.com already has loads of weird variants like
| Duck Chess.
| naveen99 wrote:
| Thanks. I love chess as well. But go is under marketed in the
| west and has potential in the rest of the world (non
| chinese).
| yewenjie wrote:
| I have said this countless times, and I will say it again - it is
| just marvelous how Lichess provides so much value being
| completely free (both libre and gratis).
|
| I would love to see more publicity of Lichess though - and seems
| like this move will help in that regard.
|
| I don't know for sure, but is there any other chess organization
| in the world of this scope that is truly non-profit? Sure, FIDE
| itself is non-profit, but profit-motives of its commercial
| counterparts and allies are controversial, to say the least.
| perihelions wrote:
| FIDE's finances are the sort of finances where your Swiss bank
| terminates all of your accounts in response to OFAC sanctions
| against terrorist states [0].
|
| I don't think they belong on this list, even if they
| technically are a nonprofit!
|
| [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43053626
| usednet wrote:
| Imagine if those sanctions had been successful and the
| "moderate rebels" had taken over Syria. It's incredulous how
| atrocious Western foreign policy has become.
| ShivShankaran wrote:
| Also worth noting that the current "Director Of Content"
| for reddit is from Atlantic Council.
|
| Its board of directors has been and continues to be a who's
| who of high U.S. statespeople like Henry Kissinger, Colin
| Powell and Condoleezza Rice, as well as senior military
| commanders such as retired generals Wesley Clark, David
| Petraeus, H.R. McMaster, James "Mad Dog" Mattis, the late
| Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft, and Admiral James Stavridis. At
| least seven former CIA directors are also on the board.
| ksaun wrote:
| (Colin Powell died about a year ago.)
| logical_proof wrote:
| To be fair the parent comment was saying that the current
| director of content for Reddit is ALSO part of the
| Atlantic council, then says the Atlantic council is and
| has been made up of those individuals. Powell could have
| been on that council before his death at some point.
| throwrqX wrote:
| The reddit board of directors? That doesn't seem right
| https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/0893288D:US
| ShivShankaran wrote:
| Now, what I meant is Reddit director of content was
| transplanted from Atlantic council which had these
| politicians as board
| vkou wrote:
| > It's incredulous how atrocious Western foreign policy has
| become.
|
| Always has been.
|
| Have we forgotten Afghanistan, circa 1980s to 1990s? Who
| could have foreseen that when you uncork the 'religious
| nationalism' bottle, the end result might be something that
| won't dance to your strings...
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Who were these "moderate rebels" in Syria?
| theywereisis wrote:
| They were radical Islamists who would have made the
| Saudis and Ayatollahs blush. Just one step down from
| ISIS. There was a tiny liberal faction that barely
| existed, and of course, that's what the western
| propaganda focused on.
| random314 wrote:
| Al Qaeda. Yes, the US Government sponsored the Al Qaeda
| in Syria. Our media, left and right, referred to them as
| "rebels" throughout the conflict. I found it wierd that
| the key US faction was referred to by a generic term
| "rebels" until I Googled. And then holy shit! WTF!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front
|
| While it was designated as a terrorist group it was
| tactically supping by both US and Israel. Russia defeated
| ISIS, against the best efforts of the United states. The
| United states merely wanted to move ISIS out of Iraq into
| Syria.
|
| https://mronline.org/2022/04/23/al-qaeda-is-on-our-side/
|
| So much for 9/11 - never forget.
|
| While I hate Trump as much as anyone could, I give him
| credit for keeping the peace in Syria and Ukraine, that
| clearly the Democrat leaders have zero desire for. Fox
| news attacked Obama for his birth certificate, but
| steered absolutely clear of Obama's sponsorship of Al
| Qaeda. The US media is beyond fucked and committed to US
| Imperialism 100%. Watching CNN/FOX is simply 2
| alternative recipes for getting brainwashed, though Fox
| is objectively worse.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| > after a statement on it's website said he had resigned.
|
| Sort of insane how the BBC missed the correct form of the
| possessive.
| rogual wrote:
| The BBC website is full of sloppy writing, not to mention
| straight-up clickbait, these days. It's kind of sad.
| mandmandam wrote:
| Don't forget the casual racism: [0]
|
| Which is part of their racist, institutionally colonial
| makeup at the top, according to their own staff: [1]
|
| Then there's how they treated Corbyn, or how they
| "covered" Assange, or their role in the war on terror,
| etc, etc.
|
| They don't deserve your pity. They've been like this for
| a long time.
|
| [0] - https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/irish-people-
| rage-over-...
|
| [1] - https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bbc-
| institutionally-r...
| dweekly wrote:
| As a rule, if an article uses [sic] in ANY part of its
| reporting it better have been scrubbed clean by an editor
| to not have any typos of its own.
| ulpoker wrote:
| Ownership and influence of chess companies and FIDE sponsoring
| is not very transparent. This article for instance claims that
| Mark Scheinberg has a chess.com stake.
|
| https://www.uktech.news/news/this-european-vc-wants-to-inves...
|
| The Scheinberg family also sponsors FIDE:
|
| https://www.fide.com/news/1694
| moffkalast wrote:
| > Therefore, in 2016, Lichess was formally registered under
| French law as an association loi 1901. This type of association
| applies to groups with clearly defined purposes that benefit the
| public, similar to charities. However, it's quite easy to form
| one - the total number in France is over 1.5 million!
|
| It is surprising that Lichess is a French charity, much like VLC.
| France also has a very low entry barrier for forming an LLC, so
| it seems to be a rather good approach all things considered.
|
| > once we become an association of general interest, our French
| donors will be able to make tax-deductible donations, meaning
| they can reduce their individual tax burden through supporting
| us. In theory, this should also apply to donors who are citizens
| of other EU countries, but the last bit of legislation supporting
| EU-wide application was passed in 2009 and we're still waiting
| for it to be cleanly implemented. Classic EU.
|
| It really is a running theme that EU member state governments
| have to be dragged kicking and screaming to implement beneficial
| EU directives as local laws while they at the same time blame the
| EU for everything unpopular they do themselves. If that's not a
| clear indicator that the Parliament should have more authority to
| assert itself I don't know what is. At least we get the "project
| funded by the EU" signs on random buildings to not make the good
| stuff completely invisible on the local level.
| mhb wrote:
| > France also has a very low entry barrier for forming an LLC
|
| In what places is this difficult? It's essentially trivial in
| the US.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Most of Europe requires you to put up several thousand in
| starting capital for an LLC equivalent entity. 7.5k for where
| I live, and Germany would be highest I think at over 12k.
| It's an extreme barrier for entry to say the least.
|
| Not sure what the requirements are for a non-profit though,
| but I assume it's the same with just a different tax
| classification.
| batmansmk wrote:
| 1 euro in France.
| probably_wrong wrote:
| If you want to have whatever the opposite of fun is, try to
| find information about how to form a startup in Germany.
| Bonus point if you can explain why you may want (or not) a
| mini GmbH.
|
| See also: https://richventures.com/posts/how-i-would-start-
| my-next-sta...
| batmansmk wrote:
| Created 2 companies in US, 3 in France - in US forming an LLC
| is not sufficient for you to be compliant and do business.
| You need statuses, a bank account, cap table, proof of
| capital deposit, registration in your state, city, a
| healthcare and dental provider, 401k, worker's compensation,
| payroll provider, insurance, accountant / attorney.
|
| In France, I do it alone, in 1 afternoon. 184 euros filing
| fee. A couple of online forms. I can fill my sales tax
| declaration, and payroll when it's just me and partners.
| Healthcare, worker's compensation are built in the tax
| system, so declaring your revenue is sufficient to get all of
| that. My professional bank offer includes a basic insurance
| that is sufficient to rent and run the business. I find it
| way more fluid in France.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| This.
|
| I would not call creating an llc to do business in the US
| 'trivial'.
|
| At least not if you plan to be legally compliant with all
| the relevant regulations.
|
| Never started one in France, so I can't speak to that, but
| doing business in the US is much more than just forming an
| llc.
| mhb wrote:
| _I would not call creating an llc to do business in the
| US 'trivial'._
|
| Perhaps, but that addresses an issue about which this
| thread isn't.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| _You need statuses, a bank account, cap table, proof of
| capital deposit, registration in your state, city, a
| healthcare and dental provider, 401k, worker 's
| compensation, payroll provider, insurance, accountant /
| attorney._
|
| What? You don't need ANY of those things in the US. One-
| person LLCs are practically ubiquitous. You just submit a
| one-page form to your state and send in a nominal filing
| fee.
|
| Depending on how you do business and how many employees you
| have besides yourself, you may need to deal with the rest
| of that list, but they are absolutely not prerequisites.
| perihelions wrote:
| Related thread from not too long ago, discussing Lichess'
| operating budget:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29955204 ( _" It takes $420k
| per year to run Lichess"_)
|
| https://lichess.org/costs (a spreadsheet)
| pocketarc wrote:
| Main Developer Salary: $52,747.25
|
| Damn. That's nothing, especially for someone doing such
| important work.
| yewenjie wrote:
| In a 2021 /r/Chess AMA Thibault responded to this.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/comment/gu9az.
| ..
| Jamie9912 wrote:
| standard european salary
| machinekob wrote:
| Standard for someone with about 1 year of exp.
|
| Its extremely low for someone with such a high skill level
| after tax it'll be about 35-40k euro not counting VAT on
| all the products you buy in EU (avg 18-23%).
| yewenjie wrote:
| No it is not. Even if you are talking about the average
| software dev salary across Europe, Thibault is way more
| experienced, and he lives in France.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| France has very low developer salaries. While 50K is
| towards the bottom of the barrel with his experience,
| it's definitely not uncommon either.
| eastbound wrote:
| 50kEUR = 75kEUR total cost for the employer, and it used
| to mean 100k$ before the devaluation of the euro. But on
| this spreadsheet, he wrote 52k TCO, to that's 35k gross
| or 26kEUR net, ie 2200 per month, it's very low for an
| entrepreneur.
|
| I personally can't find developers for 40 (junior) -
| 65kEUR (decently senior), so, even though recruiters tell
| me I'm offering 8-10k too much, the actual market may be
| much, much higher.
| ShockedUnicorn wrote:
| I used to make $28k/year pre-tax as a junior dev
| (java+frontend, quit job 2 years ago), so your recruiters
| aren't that wrong.
| rozenmd wrote:
| I moved to France in May this year, remote dev jobs for
| mid-senior were starting at 85k euros base.
|
| Which compared to international companies hiring
| remotely, was very very low.
| conradfr wrote:
| Which language?
| rozenmd wrote:
| JavaScript
| ohbtvz wrote:
| In his AMA he wrote that that's what he earns before
| income tax. In French parlance this means after all
| employer and employee social deductions.
| yokoprime wrote:
| Maybe in continental Europe.. but thats about half, maybe
| 1/3 of what he would make in E.g. Norway
| ignaloidas wrote:
| Assuming this is before taxes, no, that's not much. It
| takes about 1.5x-2x of what a worker gets for a company to
| pay them salary. I'm not familiar with French taxes, but
| the resulting salary is bellow what I would expect him to
| get for sure.
| tigertigertiger wrote:
| Not for a scala dev and not for someone with his
| experience, that's just wrong.
| nnopepe wrote:
| I am unfamiliar with scala, which of it's traits makes it
| deserving of higher pay?
| lmm wrote:
| It's popular in finance, which pulls up the average pay.
| agravier wrote:
| Also in all sorts of data engineering, productionized
| data science, etc.
| fazfq wrote:
| I guess the fact that it's rarer than other languages,
| but I have no idea.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| Just a guess: perhaps that it's more applicable to large
| use cases and at clients that are much more likely to be
| profitable and therefore able to pay?
| jon-wood wrote:
| Scala is big in the financial sector, which means average
| salaries for Scala developers are going to trend higher.
| jlund-molfese wrote:
| Functional languages seem to have a smaller talent pool
| and higher salaries.
|
| You can write procedural Scala, but if that's the case,
| you might as well use modern Java.
| thatwasunusual wrote:
| Maybe it depends on which European country, but overall
| that's a lot lower than anything I've seen in any European
| countries the last 3-4 years.
|
| Minimum seems to be $70K/year, while the normal seems to be
| $80-85K, pre-tax.
| ShockedUnicorn wrote:
| What do you mean with minium in this case? When I still
| had a job I used to make $28k/year pre-tax in Sweden as a
| junior developer (java + frontend). This was in line with
| my other junior colleagues.
| orwin wrote:
| 28k pretax seems really low. For the record, with a
| master at a government job in France, i was paid (as a
| junior) 27k after tax 5years ago (34k pretax but with
| government jobs you dont pay the social security tax or
| something, so its basically 40k pretax).
|
| Now i work for Banks and energy companies, and the pay
| skyrocketed.
| noxvilleza wrote:
| I'm interested what costs $0.38 on the Google Cloud in that
| spreadsheet!
| [deleted]
| Razengan wrote:
| I read that as "lichness" and was amused for a second, expecting
| some kind of immortality project for the aging elite.
| sundarurfriend wrote:
| tl; dr:
|
| > We've also been looking into options to set up a charitable
| presence in the United States, by either partnering with an
| existing charity or helping to set up a new independent 501(c)(3)
| organisation to support free open source software/technology in
| chess.
|
| > We know that we'll need to talk to awesome accountants and
| lovely lawyers, especially for the 501(c)(3) initiative.
|
| > As we grow, we're going to need more help from our community,
| and especially from skilled professionals who aren't necessarily
| developers. Would you like to help? Do you have experience or
| skills in finance/accounting, law, nonprofit administration,
| communications, or something else that we could use? If so, we
| invite you to complete this short survey:
| https://forms.gle/TAAja3MqnbJRGgea9 (closes at 2359 CEST on
| Sunday 13 November).
| atdrummond wrote:
| They should definitely use a fiscal sponsor first and do the
| 501c(3) as they figure out precisely what they want to
| accomplish with the organization. You get the tax deduction
| ability from day one but with way less of the onerous
| regulatory headaches.
| pabs3 wrote:
| If partnering with an existing org, Software Freedom
| Conservancy would seem like the right one.
|
| https://sfconservancy.org/
| knocte wrote:
| Or OpenCollective.
| pabs3 wrote:
| AFAICT OpenCollective currently is not a 501c3, they are a
| VC funded for-profit company, although it sounds like they
| might be changing that.
|
| https://opencollective.com/e2c
| notpushkin wrote:
| They do run a 501(c)(3) fiscal host though, but I'm not
| sure if Lichess would fit its charitable purposes:
|
| - increasing access to educational resources and training
|
| - creating a positive social impact
|
| - developing tools to improve civic participation within
| cities or communities
|
| https://opencollective.com/foundation
| IshKebab wrote:
| > but the last bit of legislation supporting EU-wide application
| was passed in 2009 and we're still waiting for it to be cleanly
| implemented. Classic EU.
|
| Careful what you complain about...
| nomilk wrote:
| TL;DR Lichess is a growing not-for-profit, it's awesome, and
| (last paragraph):
|
| > you might be just the sort of person we're looking for -
| someone who's clearly passionate about all things Lichess, even
| the minutiae. As we grow, we're going to need more help from our
| community, and especially from skilled professionals who aren't
| necessarily developers. Would you like to help? Do you have
| experience or skills in finance/accounting, law, nonprofit
| administration, communications, or something else that we could
| use? If so, we invite you to complete this short survey:
| https://forms.gle/TAAja3MqnbJRGgea9
| mlac wrote:
| While I think a US non-profit makes a lot of sense, I would
| exercise caution with the non-profit board.
|
| The board's job is to provide oversight and to appoint a director
| [1]. In this case it would clearly be Thibault, but what happens
| in a few years when Thibault is ready to go? Does he have say in
| his replacement? Does the French organization take precedent over
| the US nonprofit when it comes to leadership and governance?
|
| I say this because Lichess is extremely valuable (even as a non-
| profit) and that will attract the wrong kind of people. Thibault
| should take every precaution to make sure he retains control of
| the org, with good people around him. I'm not sure if there is a
| non-profit equivalent of retaining voting rights, but I'd want to
| be sure he retains control until it's well established as a non-
| profit and a succession plan is in place.
|
| The wrong board could evaluate his performance (which right now
| he says he works at his leisure and loves what he does) and say
| "we need more fundraising and appearances in the US at
| tournaments" and he could balk / want to focus on the product.
| They could then look to appoint a US director of the nonprofit
| and things could get awkward and extremely costly.
|
| It's incredible what has been built and maintained with a small
| team. I think they will see extreme diminishing returns after
| they hit a certain level of governance. Whether that's going
| international with a nonprofit status in the US or at another
| point is beyond my level of expertise.
|
| If someone more knowledgeable that I am can correct what I've
| written above and point out that my concerns are overblown, I'd
| be happy. I'd also ask that person to volunteer and help Lichess
| establish a presence in the US.
|
| [1] https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/tools-resources/board-
| ro...
| bombcar wrote:
| There's an entire industry built around milking non-profits,
| and fighting them off is a major part of the job.
| eruci wrote:
| I moved from Yahoo Chess, to Chess.com then to Lichess, and I
| haven't looked back since. I hope they continue to make it work
| as good as it does now - however they do it.
| greyman wrote:
| Yes, let's mention that chess.com is still very ok-ish service,
| haven't had any problem with them, nor with paid version, nor
| with free version.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Can Lichess please add Crazyhouse 960? They already have Chess
| 960 and Crazyhouse!
| greyman wrote:
| Is this a thing? I don't like 960, but with crazyhouse it could
| be fun.
| runarberg wrote:
| > At the moment, there are no plans to add any more variants
| ever.
|
| https://github.com/lichess-org/lila/issues/11660#issuecommen...
| sidcool wrote:
| Pleasantly surprised to see the title image generated by Stable
| Diffusion.
| greyman wrote:
| How do you know?
| sidcool wrote:
| It's mentioned at the end of the article.
| sdfjkl wrote:
| I always read lichess as female lich. Then I get confused when I
| click on it and see chess boards. Probably played too many
| fantasy games.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| what the hell is lich if i may ask and yes I know google exists
| sdfjkl wrote:
| A necromancer who voluntarily became undead:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I think it's incredibly responsible that they take governance
| seriously at a small organization like this. It'd be easy to take
| donations in some informal or crowdfunded way but going down the
| route of registering as a charity and having proper accounting
| and paperwork in place goes a long way to make sure people can be
| certain that their money is used well. In particular if the
| people running it ever change.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| Being on the board of an American charity is kinda stressful
| imho. Even when you have D&O insurance if you're on the board.
| Having buttoned up financials and processes and controls is a
| HUGE sign of relief for anyone on the outside considering
| partnering / joining / advising.
| ch33zer wrote:
| Good for them, seems like a good move. I always get nervous when
| I see one of these titles from a well respected charity: I assume
| that it'll be the announcement of a new direction for the
| organization, or the establishment of a for-profit arm. This is
| just lichess growing to give better benefits for donors, among
| other things. They deserve it.
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