[HN Gopher] Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to ...
___________________________________________________________________
Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new
EU law
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 189 points
Date : 2022-10-27 14:48 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.forbes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.forbes.com)
| Yorch wrote:
| I never had a device with lightning. My only Apple device, an
| Ipad Pro, has USB-C. But I found USB-C very delicate and prone to
| fail with time. I'm not a fan of this connector type.
| stop50 wrote:
| I only had cables that failed and cheap usb powerbanks that had
| bad ports but usb-c ports are the most robust i have seen.
| kkirsche wrote:
| I have to wonder, when will a company just say, No. Your citizens
| like our products more than they trust you, we can force their
| hand by immediately pulling products specifically to spite them
| while being "compliant"
| lossolo wrote:
| Never? EU market is too big for Apple to lose it because of
| some connector. It's second biggest market for Apple in the
| world after Americas [1]
|
| 1. https://businessquant.com/apple-revenue-by-region
| dagmx wrote:
| It'll be nice to see USB-C across the range.
|
| Though the timing is uncanny because when Lightning was announced
| they said it was going to be around for ten years.
|
| Obviously that didn't factor into the EU ruling, but 2022 is the
| tenth year of lightning. So if they switch next year that's an
| amazingly accurate prediction.
| muhehe wrote:
| Good. I was thinking about buying iphone, but this was the
| ultimate thing that made me not buy it.
|
| I just hope Apple doesn't decide to screw it up somehow. Like
| making sure only pricey apple chargers works. Then it wouldn't
| matter at all.
| lrvick wrote:
| As someone that deeply detests Apple and would never give them
| money, I will admit the lightning connector is superior in
| durability, inspectability, and safety than USB type C in
| virtually every way.
|
| The real crime here is that Apple insisted on patenting the
| design and keeping it for only themselves, forcing the rest of
| the industry to adopt an inferior connector and ultimately force
| it on them too.
|
| Classic Apple.
| fsflover wrote:
| > I will admit the lightning connector is superior in
| durability, inspectability, and safety than USB type C in
| virtually every way
|
| Any links to back that claim?
| lrvick wrote:
| The pins are on the outside making it easy to visually
| inspect for damage, or obstruction. With USB C a bit of
| conductive debris can be in the hollow cavity in the
| connector and cook your hardware. Or bend pins. Watched it
| happen.
|
| Also if you work in high security environments where badusb
| attacks are a risk, lightning makes it is even easy to
| inspect data delivery pins are intentionally missing before
| you plug in a cable to an airgapped machine.
|
| With USB C you have to custom make complicated usb m-to-f
| condom devices with transparent enclosures so you can visibly
| inspect the PCB traces. I have worked in high security
| environments where these were a must.
|
| Further lightning is simply a solid metal connector and more
| structurally sound. It is hard to bend pins or cause a short.
| I have distributed a lot of usb-c devices and watched people
| hand them back to me with snapped or crushed connectors many
| times.
|
| I hate that Lightning was made by Apple instead of the USB
| standards boards.
|
| USB Type C is a terrible connector. I literally use laptops
| with barrel jack power to avoid it.
| tengbretson wrote:
| Do you have a source for the question you are asking?
| anoonmoose wrote:
| Yes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33360137
| djvdq wrote:
| I was thinking the same about both connectors. And then I
| bought an iPhone. I never broke a USB-C connector nor socket in
| few years of heavy usage on few devices, but I needed to buy
| new lightning cable because the pins have worn out after less
| than a year of just connecting the cable to iphone.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I have a family member with a similar iPhone charging issue.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Toothpick. Clean port. That has saved almost every iPhone
| people bring me that'wont charge'.
|
| Every other one Apple has fixed for free as some internal
| solder has failed.
|
| But that was twice in about 50 cases.
|
| (I do free/volunteer tech support for old peoples homes)
| PNWChris wrote:
| Another possible issue: arcing/stuff burning on to one of
| the lightning pins. IDK why it happens, it's probably
| lint or something, but it's easy enough to mitigate: If a
| cable stops working all the sudden, the first thing I do
| is wet my fingers and rub both sides of the lightning
| cable's connector. Most of the time that does the trick,
| no new cable or tools needed!
|
| An example of the issue I found searching the issue real
| quick: https://www.thetechmentor.com/posts/fix-lightning-
| cable-burn...
| giantg2 wrote:
| Yep, there's definitely a scorch mark. I already tried
| cleaning it and the port. It intermittently works and
| seems to depend on which way the cable is plugged in
| (still intermittent but better; other cables are usually
| better but still intermittent).
| drcongo wrote:
| I had one of those dreadful MacBook Pros where the keyboard
| keys would get stuck, and all the USB-C ports on that were
| almost useless inside a month - they all just got incredibly
| loose and cables would just fall out.
| jlokier wrote:
| I have two broken USB-C cables next to me. They just wore out
| and broke. They have only been used to charge my phone. To be
| fair, it's not the metal connector which broke, it's the
| plastic parts, but still, that's enough to make the connector
| flimsy.
|
| I also have a phone with a broken USB-C port (data signals
| don't get through). This phone was effectively bricked when
| the display stopped working. It still has files on it I'd
| like to read, but I can't read them because the USB-C data on
| it isn't working to use remote debugging, and also means the
| HDMI out feature doesn't work.
|
| I have another phone where the USB-C port works but its
| charging is intermittent, probably because it isn't making a
| reliable connection. Probably due to matter accumulated in
| the port, as the connection does feel slightly less solid
| than it should be, but it's a pain to clean it out. A
| toothpick is slightly too large. I've tried various methods
| of cleaning it out but the problem persists, and I wonder if
| it's really matter in there, or if something is wrong with
| the metal parts inside.
|
| These are just my anecdotes, and I don't have anything that
| uses Lightning to compare with. But I have read claims that
| USB-C is a very robust, long-life connector, and my
| experience doesn't give me as much confidence in it as those
| claims suggest.
| crazygringo wrote:
| That's extremely unusual -- I've used Lightning cables daily
| for years without any issue at all.
|
| Whenever I would notice a cable not working (after about a
| year and a half), the culprit was always dust buildup inside
| the Lightning _port_ preventing the plug from entering fully.
| Clean it out with a toothpick for 15 seconds, and then good
| as new.
|
| If you were using an original Apple cable, that's bizarrely
| bad luck. I can't even imagine what could physically cause
| that.
| lesuorac wrote:
| I think a lot of it is how they use the cable.
|
| My mother goes through cable like candy. I'll buy a pack of
| 10 and give her 8 and I won't even be done with my cables
| by the time they stop working.
| [deleted]
| crazygringo wrote:
| I wonder what the difference is? Frayed cables I can
| understand, but the connector failing has me more
| curious.
|
| Storing it together with house keys or coins that scratch
| and erode the plating on the pins? Contact with moisture
| and sugar or something like that if near food/drink?
| Something thermal from baking regularly in a car's
| windshield?
|
| I have no idea, I just wonder if there's a common #1
| culprit or something.
| [deleted]
| BackBlast wrote:
| I wore out the USB-C connector on my android phone in about a
| year and a half of daily charging, so probably lasted less
| than 500 cycles. I had to resort to wireless charging to keep
| the phone functioning. This is my first long-lifed usb-c
| connector and so far it doesn't impress for durability.
|
| My wife has used apple for years, while she does need new
| cables from time to time the phone side has never had an
| issue.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I've been using MagSafe (the Qi wireless kind, not the one
| for macs) for most of my iPhone charging. I guess this is
| why I don't wear the cables out. I've added a magnetic
| adapter connector to my oculus USB-C setup, and that seems
| to work well also.
| aasasd wrote:
| It seems that the patents aren't the only obstacle to
| ubiquitous Lightning:
|
| > _Yes, it 's hard to make floating paddle and sheet metal
| spring indents more robust than a solid metal puck, but it also
| comes with extra baggage that Apple is willing to eat and most
| USB committee companies are not willing to. USB has always made
| the connectors out of stamped sheet metal for mass production,
| but it is not possible to make the lightning puck like that.
| Having potentially live exposed contacts also complicates
| things._
|
| (https://reddit.com/comments/6xfo53/comment/dmfqbnc)
| stefan_ wrote:
| It's also forever limited to USB2 speeds, state of the art year
| 2000, and can't do half the things that USB-C does. Of course
| that's easier to make, but don't worry, the patents
| notwithstanding, nobody wanted it anyway.
| least wrote:
| One can lament the inability to adopt and develop a superior
| connector without disagreeing that USB-C is the future. I
| think USB-C is better but it's not because the physical
| connector is good. It's worse in every way. It's also worth
| noting that there was a usb3 lightning connector in the 2nd
| generation iPads Pro.
| 93po wrote:
| Lighting can be safer and more durable, but it's still a dumb
| choice when USB C can deliver a ton more power and serve more
| purposes (like connecting to a monitor, daisy chaining, and
| powering laptops).
| lrvick wrote:
| Lightning could actually been the physical connector for all
| the usual USB type C power delivery framework features. If
| Apple did not patent it.
|
| Now it is left behind in features and adoption. Lightning is
| doomed to history along with other good patented ideas like
| MiniDisks and Magsafe.
| [deleted]
| mft_ wrote:
| I think lightning has a much poorer data throughput, though?
|
| I seem to remember Apple needing to embed clever video
| comrpession ICs _in their cables_ to get around this, in cases
| where it couldn 't cope with the data needed for a raw signal?
| scarface74 wrote:
| The first generation iPad Pro with Lightning could transfer
| over "USB3" speeds.
|
| But most of the cheaper USB C cables only transfer at USB2
| speeds.
| orra wrote:
| Honestly, I'm kinda surprised Apple isn't switching to USB
| Type-C... but only in the EU.
| yreg wrote:
| That would double the amount of iPhone models they need to
| manufacture and sell. It might happen, but Apple likes thin
| product lines.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > That would double the amount of iPhone models they need to
| manufacture and sell.
|
| Aren't they already doing that with the US iPhone 14 models
| now having no SIM tray vs the rest of the world with SIM
| trays?
| batuhanicoz wrote:
| Not an expert but I would think not putting a board in is
| way easier than putting in a different one. It's also
| harder to manage supply for two different boards with
| different connectors, making different cables, split the
| accessories ecosystem etc.
|
| Apple, esp. under Tim Cook, is super efficient when it
| comes to this stuff.
| Marsymars wrote:
| They could do the same for EU iPhones; sell them without
| a physical port and make people charge wirelessly.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| They couldn't. They already have mediocre market share
| here.
| yreg wrote:
| True, but that sounds like a PR nightmare. In that case I
| would expect them to go no-ports worldwide and claim that
| their amazing MagSafe charging is superior and how bold
| they are.
| geocar wrote:
| Don't forget Apple's Lightning patents run out soon.
|
| I think rather than ride it alone in the carnage of out-of-spec
| Lightning kit that would undoubtedly flood the market, getting
| switched to USB-C (while the customers blame regulators for
| having to buy new accessories) is probably better for Apple.
| scarface74 wrote:
| You really think Apple applied for a patent for Lightning in
| 2002? 5 years before the first iPhone and 10 years before the
| first iPhone that had Lightning?
| can16358p wrote:
| While I'm against forcing a company to use a specific connector
| (especially Apple where every millimeter counts), I think this
| was way overdue because of terribly slow USB 2.0 speeds even on
| "Pro" models that shoot ProRes and 48MP raws.
| scarface74 wrote:
| You realize that nowhere in the "mandate" are any speed
| requirements and most cheap USB C cords only support USB2
| speeds?
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| I, surprised they hadn't changed over yet, only major
| manufacturer not to yet, and they went all in on USB-C on iPads
| and MacBooks.
| nelsonic wrote:
| "$43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone" ~
| https://medium.com/swlh/the-real-reason-apple-doesnt-want-to...
| pdpi wrote:
| That number is pulled from deep inside somebody's bowels.
|
| The one spare cable per two devices attach rate seems pretty
| high to me. One, because people won't necessarily buy apple-
| branded cables when they can buy cheaper third party ones
| instead. Two, because a lot of the people who are
| sufficiently deep into the Apple ecosystem that they _would_
| buy original cables probably have a bazillion of them lying
| about anyway, because you get them with the Apple TV, and the
| Magic Keyboard /Mouse/Trackpad, and the airpods, and all your
| old phones, and probably some other devices I'm not thinking
| of right now. So the actual revenue from cable sales seems
| awfully inflated.
|
| Then there's the counterfactual: Whatever revenue they _do_
| get from cables, they wouldn 't lose it all. If you consider
| the people who buy Apple-branded Lightning cables instead of
| third party cables, I'd hazard guessing that most of them
| would still have bought Apple-branded USB-C cables if the
| devices used those. Apple sells USB-C charge cables (like the
| ones that come with the iPad) for the same $19 as the
| Lightning cables.
|
| Put the two factors together, and I can't see the economics
| of cable sales being the driver for something as fundamental
| as the ports on their flagship products.
| scarface74 wrote:
| You really think Apple sells $43B worth of Lightning cables?
| pdpi wrote:
| The number is probably overinflated as all hell, but the
| article does arrive at that number as the lifetime total,
| not yearly sales.
| yreg wrote:
| >Apple sold more than 2.2 billion iPhones and more than 360
| million iPads before they stopped making numbers public.
|
| >Say for every second iPhone or iPad sold, a user bought just
| one extra Apple Lightning cable for $19 which probably costs
| Apple around $1 (if not less) to make.
|
| >That's give or take $43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone.
|
| I don't follow, `(2.2B + 360M) / 2 * 18` is not 43.5B.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > a user bought just one extra Apple Lightning cable for
| $19
|
| I've bought _a lot_ of Lightning cables over the last
| decade and I 'd say that 90%+ of them were under $15.
| CharlesW wrote:
| This is an incredibly naive estimate, and the author couldn't
| even get the simple math right. (22 billion + 330 million) *
| $18 = $45.5B.
|
| Most Lightning cables are sold by 3rd parties, Lightning
| didn't even appear on iPhones/iPads until the iPhone 5 and
| 4th-gen iPad, etc.
| ribit wrote:
| Apple has been moving their entire lineup to USB-C for a while
| already (iPad Pro in 2020, iPad Mini in 2021, more devices this
| year) . Sure, in public they have to oppose tech sector
| regulation, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were secretly
| happy as it provides them with an excuse. If some customers who
| have heavily invested into the Lighting ecosystem complains then
| can always say "look, it was the EU, blame them".
| CharlesW wrote:
| Absolutely. If Apple would've switched to USB-C without an EU
| mandate, they would've received mountains of bad press about
| the unprecedented amount of e-waste and confusion that will
| result because of this switch. So they pressured the EU to
| mandate the change to a standard that Apple helped pioneer, so
| that Apple's environmentally-friendly record would remain
| unblemished.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| The mountains of e-waste created by keeping around a zombie
| protocol far exceeds a transition to a widely used and
| accepted standard.
|
| The majority of people with iPhone likely already have USB-C
| cables anyway, so requires no net new purchase
| scarface74 wrote:
| How many of those users have USB C cables capable of video
| over USB, USB3 speeds etc?
|
| If the EU were going to "mandate" something, don't be half
| assed about it.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| I dunno, but lightning doesn't support that anyway, so
| who cares?
| scarface74 wrote:
| Actually, Lightning can support USB 3. The first
| generation iPad Pro did.
|
| But I thought EU was trying to prevent incompatibility?
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Love seeing all the Apple zombies malding over making
| society convenient for people.
|
| This legislation wouldn't have even happened if Apple had
| done the right thing to begin with. Instead of trying to
| eek out margins on proprietary cables
| scarface74 wrote:
| Yes because out of the billions Apple makes, the few
| pennies that Lightning makes is really meaningful.
|
| My issue is not the USB C mandate, it's the usual
| incompetence of the EUs half way thought out laws.
|
| If you are going to mandate a standard, mandate a good
| one - including minimum data transfer, power delivery and
| video - all parts of the standard.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| I agree the law could have been written better.
|
| It could have just enforced that vendors must use an
| agreed upon standard by X% of industry participants or
| similar. Thus if you want a competing connector, you have
| to propose a new standard and get buy in from others.
|
| But the end result is the same regardless. When the need
| for a new standard comes, the spec will be updated or
| abandoned in favor of a new one.
|
| As to Apple's reasoning for not using USB-C, who's to
| say? I would think cable revenue is minuscule at the end
| of the day, yet here they are still using lightning
| almost a decade after the rest of the industry
| standardized on USB-C
|
| At their scale they need to operate in a somewhat
| sensible way or regulators will target them, that's life.
| Society is not going to be beholden to Apple's design
| choices if it negatively affects enough people
| sdfhbdf wrote:
| Correction, my iPad Pro from 2018 also has USB-C
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| I'll be happy to carry just one charging cable for everything in
| my bag in a few years. Hopefully this gives Anker the chance to
| make One USB-C Cable To Replace Them All with gold connectors and
| [?] durability
| shtopointo wrote:
| Well I'm glad the EU decided to tackle important subjects. Not
| like they have a monetary and energy crisis going on at the
| moment.
| ohbtvz wrote:
| The law has been on the books for years and has been enacted
| for a while already. It's Apple who's making an announcement
| here -- that they are bravely deciding to follow the law.
|
| And the EU has multiple employees. They can work on different
| things at the same time.
| andsoitis wrote:
| You can work on multiple problems at once.
|
| For instance, since you brought up energy, even recently it was
| feared that Europe will have trouble this winter but now they
| have a glut: https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-once-fearing-
| gas-rationi...
|
| There are also long term and short term problems that warrant
| different strategies.
|
| Some problems are important to solve but not urgent, while
| others are both.
| shtopointo wrote:
| I'm glad the WSJ is covering that but have you checked energy
| prices in Europe when compared to last year?
|
| Newspapers can say whatever, the reality on the ground is
| that energy prices have gone up 5-10x in the past year.
|
| Some problems are not even worth mentioning before the big
| ones are solved. Sometimes you have to hone all your energy
| to solve the big problems and worry about the small ones
| later. Priorities and such.
|
| As far as I see the EU govt is more interested in image than
| actual solutions. Taking on Apple and winning looks sexier
| than fixing the very unsexy problem of energy or inflation.
| izacus wrote:
| You've literally gotten a link about how EU is actively
| working on exactly what you want.
|
| And fixing the anticompetitiveness of Apple at once.
| Efficiency!
| falcolas wrote:
| Good.
|
| When we're constantly adding more data transfer functionality and
| power capabilities to USB-C, I don't buy the "but muh innovation"
| argument.
|
| The magic of USB-C isn't in the physical interface, it's in the
| chips that connect to the interface (both in the device and the
| cable). And if those chips want to change the pinouts after
| bootstrapping via the current pinout configuration, they can and
| will.
| enriquec wrote:
| you may not buy the "but muh innovation" - its also sad that
| that passes for discourse for you - but it is economic fact.
|
| whats your opinion on "muh regulatory capture"? what about
| lightning vs microusb?
| falcolas wrote:
| Sadly, that is the state of discourse that's coming from the
| innovation POV. The entire tone of these arguments boils down
| to an appeal to "common sense" with nothing backing it.
|
| And, as repeatedly pointed out, it's not like the EU is
| preemptively stifling all potential replacements. They're
| explicitly carving room in the laws for those replacements
| when they're ready.
| chroma wrote:
| It stifles innovation because anyone who wants to use a new
| connector has to lobby some EU bureaucrats.
|
| How long have we had to click through cookie consent popups
| on every website? You'd think the EU would be able to
| update their laws to fix something so simple and annoying.
| I expect their phone connector standards to be administered
| with similar competence.
| izacus wrote:
| Except that the regulation doesn't do any such thing (the
| USB-C mandate will expire automatically after a few
| years) and the innovation angle is just bloviating from
| people who haven't read the regulation and need a
| desperate need to defend their rich mega corporation.
| enriquec wrote:
| > Except that the regulation doesn't do any such thing
| (the USB-C mandate will expire automatically after a few
| years)
|
| The precedence has been set.
|
| > and the innovation angle is just bloviating from people
| who haven't read the regulation and need a desperate need
| to defend their rich mega corporation.
|
| lol dude, aside from your clear lack of knowledge in
| economics - you're never going to learn anything with
| that attitude.
| [deleted]
| GamerUncle wrote:
| >Caring about precedence >On roman Law lmao precedence of
| this kind would mater if this was the commonwealth but
| historically precedence has meant nothing in the EU
| That's the thing about roman law, just because one judge
| decided fucking people in the ass is correct it does not
| mean everyone should agree. So don't use the tools for
| the analysis of anglo law in this.
| hooverd wrote:
| I don't see anybody complaining about the RJ45 format, or
| NEMA. If you let companies run wild they would probably come
| up with a way to shove DRM into connectors.
| enriquec wrote:
| "hooverd not hearing anyone complaining" isn't an accurate
| measure of innovation lost through politicizing technology
| and mandating connectors
| xxpor wrote:
| Oh, people complain about NEMA all the time. It's
| objectively the worst commonly used socket+plug system from
| a safety perspective. It's somewhat mitigated by the common
| voltage being half of what the Europlug etc sees.
|
| RJ45 (akchually 8p8c) also has its issues: people complain
| about how easy it is to break off the stupid plastic tab
| all the time.
|
| There's proto-DRM in SFP connectors though, you're right.
| There's an EEPROM in the connector since it needs to
| negotiate with whatever it's plugged in to, and companies
| like Juniper and Cisco will only support their own optics
| (at least, they used to).
| hooverd wrote:
| No argument there. The Europlug is another innovation
| stifling regulation though. We should allow
| developers/homebuilders to select the socket of their
| choice, even develop their own proprietary ones.
| lwkl wrote:
| Sounds great. I want to buy a new charger or adapter
| every time I travel to a different country.
|
| If we're at it we should also stop using SI units and go
| back to the times where every city had a different unit
| of measurement. Maybe we should go further and let
| companies develop their own units of measurement to allow
| for more innovation.
| scarface74 wrote:
| You realize that "magic" isn't being enforced by the as usual
| short sighted EU?
|
| There is no requirement to ship USB cords that actually
| transfer data at USB3 speeds or actually any mandate to have
| cables that support data at all. What do you think the chances
| are that cheap Android phones will ship with more expensive
| cables that can transfer at USB 3 speeds?
|
| Not to mention that I doubt that the cheap USB cords will
| support video over USB C - something that USB C iPads already
| support.
| falcolas wrote:
| All I expect out of a USB-C cord shipped by apple with my
| phone is the ability to charge (which is what I get with an
| iPad, which uses USB-C). I'd love to expect more, but a
| Thunderbolt cable is stupidly expensive and not worth
| including by default.
|
| Standardization around the markings and marketing for USB-C
| cables would be f'ing awesome. But I'll take this win
| regardless.
| scarface74 wrote:
| It's not _Apple_ that you have to worry about not
| supporting the full spec - they already do with USB C
| iPads.
|
| It's the Android manufacturers and your local convenience
| store. Meaning it is still "contributing to ewaste" when
| you can't use your old USB C cords to get all of the
| functionality that is part of the USB C spec.
|
| This is yet another example of EU regulators not thinking
| through their proposals -- see also the GDPR whose only
| consequence is a bunch of cookie pop ups.
| falcolas wrote:
| I'm sorry, but I don't see how we can lay the blame for
| corporations cutting corners on completely unrelated
| legislation.
|
| I get that there can be unintended consequences with
| passed legislation, but these seem too disconnected to be
| relevant. As in, there have been substandard USB-C cables
| since USB-C first came out.
|
| The existence of those cables can't be laid at the feet
| of requiring Apple to use USB-C on the one remaining
| device they offer which doesn't use USB-C.
| scarface74 wrote:
| > I'm sorry, but I don't see how we can lay the blame for
| corporations cutting corners on completely unrelated
| legislation.
|
| You mean the same legislation that can enforce USB C
| can't enforce a minimum standard for USB C:
|
| - must support USB 3 speeds
|
| - must support video over USB and a certain minimum
| standard (this is a standard)
|
| - etc?
| [deleted]
| Ferrotin wrote:
| You're already free to buy a phone with those features,
| without worrying about extra chargers.
| scarface74 wrote:
| The aim was to "prevent ewaste" by "standardizing
| cables". The "standard" that the EU is mandating doesn't
| do any of that if an Android user who bought an iPhone
| can't use the "standard" cable to its potential.
| lamontcg wrote:
| > see also the GDPR whose only consequence is a bunch of
| cookie pop ups.
|
| well that's just wrong.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So exactly what did it accomplish? Did it affect Facebook
| or Google at all or any adTech company?
|
| When ATT was implemented by Apple, many ad tech companies
| announced it impacted them. You didn't hear a whisper
| after the GDPR. Websites just started putting up annoying
| cookie banners and life continued.
| simion314 wrote:
| What do you want exactly? Make tracking illegal? Make
| advertising illegal?
|
| The law demands you ask the user for consent, if it made
| tracking illegal people would complain about their
| freedom to sell their private data for cat pictures.
|
| There are consequences for GDPR, maybe you did not see
| any but I can assure you that there were news about fines
| and you can Google for that. I can also inform you that
| at my work place GDPR also had an effect.
|
| What you need is browser makers to get involved and
| improve the situation, I am sure you would have hated EU
| to tell you how to implement a ""do not tack" in your
| browser. The main issue is that Chrome is controlled by
| Google and they don't want to help with privacy. But who
| knows maybe your favorite company Apple will push and
| implement a consent for tracking API .
|
| Btw here in EU GDPR also has effect in real world, just
| an example before GDPR you would get exam results
| published publicly with names, now you get a serial
| number and instead of names the results will ahve this
| serial number, nobody will know what your results are.
| Same if you go to a clinic to do a blood tests, they need
| to give you a paper and specify exactly what they will do
| with your data.
|
| Big tech is trying to avoid doing the right thing as much
| as possible but they will pay larger and larger fines
| until they will have to respect the users.
| scarface74 wrote:
| > Btw here in EU GDPR also has effect in real world, just
| an example before GDPR you would get exam results
| published publicly with names,
|
| In the US, for decades not even parents could know about
| their college students without the students signing
| paperwork.
|
| > Same if you go to a clinic to do a blood tests, they
| need to give you a paper and specify exactly what they
| will do with your data.
|
| HIPAA in the US never required cookie pop ups and has
| been the law for decades.
|
| Its not exactly making a strong argument that there is
| one really complicated 11 chapter 99 section law that
| tries and failed badly to address different goals.
| simion314 wrote:
| Yes, but HIPA is like EXTREMELY limited, GDPR apples to
| everything not only websites, mI attempted to clarify
| this since many confuse GDPR with "cookie law", so GDPR
| can't tell web-developers how to implement the popups or
| buttons since is a generic thing, the law specify that
| accepting and rejecting should be similarly easy , if it
| is not then you will need to report this bussiness and it
| takes time for them to get fined.
|
| I am not sure why you guys in US see those popups, the
| websites could just continue tracking you and sell your
| data.
| falcolas wrote:
| > So exactly what did it accomplish?
|
| https://www.privacyaffairs.com/gdpr-fines/
|
| > Total Amount of GDPR Fines: EUR2,040,213,207
|
| > Largest Fine: EUR746,000,000 Amazon Europe Core
| S.a.r.l. on July 22 , 2021 - Luxembourg
| scarface74 wrote:
| And now compare those fines to the market cap and revenue
| of the large tech companies.
|
| Did it change any behaviors?
|
| And all indications that Amazon appealed the fine and
| hasn't paid it yet.
| latchkey wrote:
| I switched to the magnetic charger long ago. Just keep it near my
| bed... plop my phone onto it before bed and wake up in the
| morning with a charged phone. Easy.
| brundolf wrote:
| I'm so excited for this. I was about to buy a new iPhone, but
| with this news I'm going to wait another year just so I can get
| USB-C
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I actually sprung for a new phone this generation (14) since it
| was rumored that it would be the last of the Lightning models.
| Gotta get maximum usage out of all the Lightning stuff laying
| around the house.
| popcalc wrote:
| Sunk cost fallacy much?
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| More like there's no point in throwing out a bunch of
| perfectly good cables. Would rather they get tossed because
| they no longer function.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| There's also no point in getting a new phone one or two
| years early.
|
| And this will only extend the life of that Lightning
| stuff by so much.
|
| So you have to compare both scenarios in their entirety.
| They both generate waste in different ways.
|
| And some of that Lightning stuff can get adapters, 3 for
| $7 on amazon.
| datadata wrote:
| It takes courage to follow the law
| repler wrote:
| What happens if I plug my USB-C iPhone into my 100W USB-C
| charging cord for my laptop?
|
| Does the phone charge? Does it get hot? Does the brick get hot?
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| I already plug my iphone lightning cable to 100W USB-C charging
| block for my laptop. USB-C doesn't send full power unless the
| device wants it.
| stop50 wrote:
| case 1: an cable without chip, conforming to the usb3 spec both
| devices transfer the highest amount below the cap that is
| supported case 2 wirth chip: the maximum power transfered is
| now the minimum between charger, phone and cable.
| danpalmer wrote:
| It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can
| see why.
|
| I worked in a pseudo-Apple-store during the height of the 30-pin
| dock connector and I sold so many cases, speaker docks, charging
| cables, and all sorts of weird accessories that were built for
| the 30-pin connector.
|
| Then Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single.
| way. And yet people got burnt. There was so much hardware that
| was now incompatible that people understandably didn't recognise
| the benefits of the Lightning connector.
|
| This mattered far less for other companies because of the lack of
| brand recognition. If someone switches from one non-Apple device
| to another non-Apple device, they don't necessarily expect to
| keep using the same cables, and back in the day every
| manufacturer had their own. The expectations of Apple were higher
| only because of that brand recognition.
|
| Sadly, the fact that so many got burnt in the Lightning
| transition means that there is _still_, a decade later, a
| resentment among many. I've spoken to so many people who don't
| like Apple devices, who when asked why say things like "they're
| always changing their cables". It's obviously not true, but to
| most people who aren't familiar it might as well be.
|
| I think this even burnt the MFI manufacturers. 30-pin compatible
| speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available,
| but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning. There are
| other factors here like the rise of Bluetooth and Wifi enabled
| devices, and the demise of the iPod, but I think manufacturers
| also knew customers didn't want Apple specific connector hardware
| anymore - I know I didn't.
|
| Ironically, the long-delayed USB-C transition has probably had
| the opposite effect. In attempting to compensate for the public
| view of Apple changing connectors, they've become somewhat known
| as being the company with the wrong connectors. It's sad, given
| Apple's core role in defining the USB-C spec, but it's
| understandable.
|
| I look forward to a USB-C iPhone. It's a shame it took
| legislation to make it happen, but I understand why given how
| long customers' memories are about the 30-pin connector. As much
| as we'd like to think USB-C was the "right answer" several years
| ago, it's a bit more complicated than that.
| noncoml wrote:
| I would buy this argument if iPads and Macbooks didn't have
| usb-c charging
| scarface74 wrote:
| Are you proposing the alternative was that Apple kept
| supporting 30 pin connectors?
|
| And despite your anecdotes, evidence shows that switching
| didn't hurt Apple sales. What were the people who were "burnt"
| by Apple abandoning 30 pin connectors going to do? Switch to
| Android and still have to switch cables?
| danpalmer wrote:
| Not at all. It was an old connector that needed to be
| replaced. What I'm suggesting is that as a brand with that
| level of public recognition there is No Good Answer. Every
| option sucks in some way.
|
| And the same is true again now for USB-C, "just switch to
| USB-C" is not an answer that sounds good for most people, and
| Apple is still paying for the bad will from customers from
| the 30-pin connector transition. The USB-C transition is only
| going to add to that.
| berkeleyjunk wrote:
| Yep. And even worse they probably would have had to switch
| from Micro USB to USB-C again when they upgraded.
| scarface74 wrote:
| And I can still connect my iPhone 12 to my old car that
| supports the "iPod USB protocol" from before the first
| iPhone came out.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Yep. Thirty pin adapters STILL WORK.
|
| Apple supports it and sells the dongle.
|
| Can't realistically ask for more than that.
|
| For us old Apple enthusiasts there were many many upsides
| to apples success and mainstreaming, some of the
| downsides include the hysterical reaction to anything
| they do.
| riobard wrote:
| If resentment from rendering existing accessories obsolete due
| to changing connectors is the root cause of the delay, maybe
| Apple has been secretly waiting for the EU legislation so it
| can deflect the blame? e.g. "it's EU forcing our hands so we
| have to change."
| sbuk wrote:
| I think this is exactly what is going on. The last change saw
| a few long threads _here_ decrying Apple as the AntiChrist
| for daring to make the change, and arguing for Micro USB,
| which was and remains a bad standard.
| tristor wrote:
| My resentment with the change from the dock connector to
| lightning was that with lightning, at least initially, they
| refused to license the tech to anyone for a reasonable fee so
| it completely eliminated entire classes of products from the
| market for newer iPhones. I specifically kept my iPhone 4S
| longer than I would have otherwise to be able to continue using
| an external DAC and amplifier for driving high impedance
| headphones for this reason, as an example. I had no problem
| with the lightning form factor, I had a problem with the
| unnecessary and punitive DRM they included within it for /no
| reason/ other than their greed. I believe it's for this same
| reason they've resisted offering USB-C, which would mean anyone
| could make an accessory by abiding by industry standards
| without having to pay for an mFI chip and certification.
| dagmx wrote:
| Something I found interesting when discussing this with my
| wife..
|
| All my friends are tech heads and champing at the bit to have
| usb-c in their iPhones.
|
| But when she asked me why people were mad about the switch to
| usb-c it took me by surprise. Then she showed me a lot of
| online responses from non technical people who see the change
| of port as annoying and wasteful because now all their stuff
| won't work without adapters.
|
| I think it's really interesting to see the difference in mind
| sets between different demographics.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| One time my mother ordered a power cable for an old coffee
| maker, I think a Revereware percolator or something similar.
| I remember she found one specifically for it and waited for
| it to arrive so she could test this and re-sell it. I took a
| look and it's just a regular ATX computer power cable (type
| C13 but I had to look that up), and I was like, I've got a
| pile of those and could just have given you one.
|
| People just don't realize what are standard cables vs what
| are bespoke for their application, and this sort of thinking
| has bitten me personally as well.
| shuntress wrote:
| It is not a difference in mind sets.
|
| Those "non technical people" want the same thing that the
| "tech heads" want: One type of cable that is compatible with
| all their devices. They just don't necessarily realize that
| they have already organized their lives in a way that
| excludes mismatched cables.
|
| I would be just as happy to have everything switch to
| lightning. I really don't care what it is I just want all my
| cables to be the same.
| password1 wrote:
| I know many people that mentally only perceive connectors as
| "the iphone cable" and "the android cable". The "Android
| cable" could be anything from micro-usb to usb-c to old
| propietary connectors of old nokia and motorola.
|
| To this people this change effectively removes what's
| familiar and understood for something unknown, but I think it
| will still be for the better if eventually they will only
| perceive it as "the cable" that just works with pretty much
| anything.
| hot_gril wrote:
| I think tech heads are the least practical with tech. It's
| not necessarily about convenience to them, and they'll
| tolerate a lot.
| brundolf wrote:
| But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables
| lying around at this point
|
| Android phones have used USB-C cables for many years. The
| Nintendo switch and PS5 controllers use USB-C cables.
| Chromebooks use USB-C cables. The alarm clock I just bought
| uses a USB-C cable. My keyboard uses a USB-C cable. Every
| MacBook made in the last five years (and most iPads sold in
| the last couple years) uses a USB-C cable.
|
| It's very possible, if they're nontechnical, that they
| already have cables that will work with it and don't even
| realize it (which to be fair might be its own problem, but
| it's certainly a smaller problem)
| hot_gril wrote:
| Non-tech people aren't constantly buying new tech like what
| you listed.
| nanidin wrote:
| I have a FLIR camera that plugs into the lightning port on
| my iPhone. I'm not sure if it will even be supported with
| an adaptor when/if I get a USB-C iPhone.
| neither_color wrote:
| _But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C
| cables lying around at this point_
|
| Dont most people keep some devices permanently connected to
| the cable it came with though? I don't use my monitors
| USB-C cable to charge anything else. I don't use the quest
| link cable for anything but the quest. In theory it's "one
| cable for every device" but in practice the only place that
| happens is in a backpack power bank or car. Every device
| comes with its own cable and whether the new iPhone comes
| with a USB or lightning cable all it does is add one more
| cable to your collection.
| dagmx wrote:
| If they do have a usb-c cable they likely don't necessarily
| think of it as one. It's just generic charging cable that
| works with this device that they probably leave plugged in
| all the time.
|
| But when you tell them that the thing they plug in and out
| every day is changing cables that ruffles feathers.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| I have about twelve Lightning cables (2 in car, 4
| permanently installed at convenient locations, a few in my
| work bag, an couple in another bag and some currently
| missing) and one USB-C cable, which I use for charging my
| laptop.
|
| At some point soon, perhaps when I get a new iPhone, I am
| going to have to start buying more USB-C cables.
|
| I will then spend years looking at the end of cables to see
| what the connector looks like. Just like USB-A and B where
| I had to make sure they were the right way up, which takes
| at least three attempts.
|
| At some point, my iPad and iPhone - and my family's iPads
| and iPhones - will all be dead, and replaced with USB-C
| versions.
|
| We are quite good at hanging onto devices until they can no
| longer have new safe batteries (installed by Apple) or have
| no real use, so this could be around ten to fifteen years.
|
| This drive by the EU seems to mainly talk about power
| adapters, and how it's a waste to have separate ones, but
| all the power adapters I use for phone and iPad have USB-A
| sockets.
|
| With USB-C on both ends of cables, I expect I'll have to
| buy some new power adapters soon. I will then have to have
| two adapters everywhere (one for my USB-A to Lightning
| cables), or buy lots of USB-C to Lightning cables for the
| transition period. To go with the USB-C cables for post
| transition period.
|
| I'm not at all inconvenienced by Lightning and not at all
| desperate to have USB-C, and USB-C will be replaced by
| USB-D in a few years, probably many years before the
| Lightning devices have given up, to USB-C, so I will
| probably carry several Lightning to USB-A, several
| Lightning to USB-C, several Lightning to USB-D, several
| USB-C to USB-C, several USB-C to USB-D and several USB-D to
| USB-D.
|
| * not counting the Switch. I'm not gambling with that - it
| gets its original PSU only.
| fold3 wrote:
| I'm using a power adapter that has 1 USB A and 2 USB C
| output. Theses new generation chargers are very small and
| powerful. I can charge a laptop, a phone and a ereader at
| the same time.
| brundolf wrote:
| > With USB-C on both ends of cables, I expect I'll have
| to buy some new power adapters soon. I will then have to
| have two adapters everywhere
|
| Recent lightning cables already have USB-C instead of
| USB-A at the other end; that's not a part of the EU
| mandate as far as I know. In fact I'd bet USB-A would be
| explicitly allowed, because it's a standard port.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| I am a tech person with an older MacBook Pro and a newer
| iPhone, and AirPods. I own zero USB C cables and am not
| really looking forward to the switch.
| gnicholas wrote:
| > _But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C
| cables lying around at this point_
|
| I do have a couple of these, from my old MBP and my iPad
| Pro. What I don't have many of are USB-C bricks. I have
| tons of USB-A bricks that work with all of my micro USB
| devices (wireless keyboard, Beats, bike lights, etc.) and
| my Lightning devices (iPhone, several iPads, several
| AirPods).
|
| If all of these devices move over to USB-C and don't
| include bricks, I'll end up going out and buying half a
| dozen of them to replace the ones we have around our house
| currently. We'll also need cables, and in all this will
| probably cost $100. Not a huge deal, but not something I'm
| looking forward to shelling out for, especially since
| there's no gain from my perspective.
|
| > _Every MacBook made in the last five years (and most
| iPads sold in the last couple years) uses a USB-C cable._
|
| Current Apple laptops come with USB-C to MagSafe cables.
| They are USB-C in the sense that they fit USB-C bricks, but
| the cable itself (which is very nice/braided, and hopefully
| will last a long time) is single-purpose. It won't work in
| anything but an Apple laptop.
| eropple wrote:
| _> there 's no gain from my perspective_
|
| Maybe this'll broaden that perspective a little: Apple
| devices since the iPhone 8 support USB-PD with C-to-
| Lightning cables now, and it's much faster. Decent USB-C
| chargers are a noticeable quality-of-life improvement.
| gnicholas wrote:
| So you're saying my iPhone will charge faster? I probably
| won't notice, since I only charge overnight. My phone
| actually pauses charging until 7 AM to manage battery
| health.
|
| Also, if this is already available with USB-C to
| Lightning cables, is there an additional speed bump if
| the iPhone itself has USB-C?
|
| I also just realized this means I'll have to buy new
| power banks, since the old ones are USB-A. That's another
| $40-60 total.
| eropple wrote:
| I also normally charge my phone at night, but I find the
| USB-PD charging super valuable when traveling, because if
| my phone is at 20% it will very very quickly be back up
| to 60% or so off of a USB-PD charger. Apple A-to-
| Lightning fast charging isn't slow, but it isn't that
| fast, and it's one more thing to think about.
|
| You don't _have_ to buy new power banks, either. And
| really, you don 't have to buy new adapters either, if
| you don't want to! A-to-C is supported for both data and
| charging. iPads already fall back to Apple's old fast
| charging over A-to-C when your adapter or power bank
| supports it, I don't think there's a reason an iPhone
| wouldn't. It won't be as fast as USB-PD, but that
| upgrade's a choice.
|
| Your concerns are definitely not nothing, but I think
| you're really overthinking it. It's not a step change,
| you can do it gradually, and when you go to USB-C on both
| ends, you'll _get_ something for doing it. (USB-PD is
| currently available with C-to-Lightning cables, but you
| 've said you don't have any of those right now, so I
| would assume it's not a big deal to you and you will
| realize the benefits when you upgrade.)
| gnicholas wrote:
| Sure, I also fast-charge sometimes when traveling. But I
| have found that USB-C is not available on planes, in
| airports, or in hotels. So if I want to be able to charge
| conveniently, I actually would rather have a USB-A to
| Lightning cable.
|
| But regardless, it sounds like there is no additional
| speed advantage to having USB-C to USB-C versus the
| currently available USB-C to Lightning. Is that right? As
| for getting a bunch of dongles, that's one solution, but
| means spending more money.
| scarface74 wrote:
| And what are the chances that those Android phones with USB
| C actually support high speed data or video over USB C?
|
| And those USB C MacBook cables definitely don't support
| data transfers. The newest ones come with MagSafe
| irrational wrote:
| We have 5 iPhones (no usb-c connectors), 5 tablets (no
| usb-c connectors), 1 desktop (no usb-c port), and 6 laptops
| (only 1 of which has a usb-c charger). So, we have a grand
| total of 1 usb-c cable in the house. And that one is
| already in use charging a laptop. I sure hope Apple is
| planning on including a cable and charger with future
| iPhones so I don't have to purchase a separate cable.
|
| Frankly, hardware doesn't become as obsolete as fast
| anymore, so there has been little reason to purchase usb-c
| replacements for our non-usb-c hardware.
| danpalmer wrote:
| Absolutely.
|
| USB-C appeals to techies, people with an engineering mindset,
| because it's an elegant solution. It's one connector, with
| graceful handling of different use-cases from charging,
| through peripherals, to high-speed high throughput data
| transfer.
|
| But practically speaking, I've bought several HDMI adapters,
| had a hard time choosing a mouse that had USB-C a few years
| ago, have bought a new charger, lost MagSafe on my laptop.
| This is how most people view it, and it's hard to convince
| them otherwise, and rightly so!
| hot_gril wrote:
| There are some technical pitfalls of USB-C too. Solvable
| but still present.
|
| Probably the biggest thing people don't think about is how
| rare USB-C hubs are. I don't mean the ones that adapt to
| other ports (if you thought of that first, it illustrates
| my point), I mean one that takes one USB-C and gives you
| more. For years after 2016, the chip to make this simply
| didn't exist. Even now, it's expensive. For this reason, it
| actually makes sense to use USB-A accessories even if your
| PCs take -C, cause you can always get more -A ports for
| cheap. So companies still make -A accessories, and even a
| lot of -C ones tend to come with an A-to-C cable in the box
| (and no -C to -C cable!).
|
| Non-tech people tend to understand these things without
| knowing it. They see new port, they say no.
| stouset wrote:
| It's not even an elegant solution.
|
| Having one port profile front for multiple technologies
| (USB, USB-PD, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt), and multiple
| _versions_ of those technologies, with the cables being
| random able /unable to support any particular matrix of
| them, has been a usability nightmare.
|
| Also on a purely functional level the actually-a-male
| design of the Lightning plug has made it--in my opinion--a
| far superior physical plug than the looks-male-but-is-
| female-in-disguise design of the USB-C plug.
| robocat wrote:
| I have had Android phones where the USB-C port has failed
| bricking the device (can't charge). Micro-USB was far
| worse, but USB-C still fails to often.
|
| Lightning appears to be _much_ more robust (anecdotally
| watching friends devices, I have had few Apple iDevices).
| Mechanically and electrically, I like the lightning
| connector (although I loath proprietary shit generally).
| chomp wrote:
| I stayed at a hotel in Italy a few years ago, and the radio
| alarm next to the bed _still_ had the 30 pin connector. No
| doubt that there are probably a ton of people still annoyed at
| Apple.
| walterbell wrote:
| There are 30-pin to Lightning cables/adapters for connecting
| to older equipment that otherwise continue to work perfectly.
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| Yep, Apple probably wanted to switch to USB-C earlier but you
| can see why they also wouldn't want the backlash. Now, they
| can switch to USB-C and also blame the regulators when people
| are mad, so this is kind of win/win for them.
| gnicholas wrote:
| What makes you think they wanted to switch sooner? I get
| that this gives them cover, but what competitive/cost
| benefits would they have gained by switching?
| password1 wrote:
| > The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that
| brand recognition.
|
| I think the expectations were high also because Apple had a
| really strong marketing push on the concept of "docking" your
| devices. I remember even cars had dedicated iPhones docks as
| additional selling points, along with speakers and many other
| devices. There was a promise that if you bought an iPhone you
| could dock it everywhere and so there was this big ecosystem of
| things you could plug it in. Then apple switched to lightning
| and quietly retired the whole docking thing.
| jonhohle wrote:
| As someone in the Apple ecosystem looking out, I disliked that
| the 30-pin connector replaced FireWire, but understood it was
| thinner. That connector then stuck around for around 10 years.
|
| Look at nearly every other device manufacturer when the 30-pin
| connector was being used - Palm, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sony,
| etc. all used proprietary connectors that were not only
| incompatible with each other, but often didn't work between
| devices from the same manufacturer. There was no devices to
| replace (except chargers), because no accessory makers would
| take the risk of 30 SKUs to support devices that wouldn't be
| sold in 6 months and whose bespoke connectors would vanish with
| the device.
|
| Late in that evolution, device makers decide to standardize on
| micro-USB, but even that "standard" didn't last as long as the
| 30-pin connector.
|
| Lightning was almost universally better (unless you wanted
| audio and power easily from the same connector), and it also
| lasted for around 10 years.
|
| USB-C hasn't even been around as long as lightning, so even
| though most devices have standardized on it, it has a shorter
| product life than Lightning has had. Even now, it's still a
| mystery to me whether a USB-C adapter and cable will charge my
| device or fry it.
|
| I'm hopeful that USB-C and whatever charging standard du jour
| sticks around for a while. The physical connector seems robust
| enough (though Lightning's single metal block with no flimsy
| plastic blade seems pretty optimal), and small enough (again,
| Lightning).
|
| The idea, however, that Apple is always changing cables when
| they've had two (2!) over two decades is an amazing feat. It's
| suboptimal that they were proprietary, but the idea that there
| is a mountain of e-waste because of them ignores how long they
| were compatible and the effect of their ubiquity had on
| accessory makers.
|
| I welcome a new USB-C world, but really think the issues with
| the 30-pin and Lightning cables ignore everyone else in the
| industry. I'm also concerned that when USB-D is released, will
| this legislation prevent device makers from adopting it for
| stupid legal reasons. This seems specifically like something
| that should be left to markets.
| postalrat wrote:
| Is it even possible to fry a device with the wrong USB c? I
| thought at worse you get longer charging times or slower data
| mortenjorck wrote:
| I think this meme started due to Nintendo (very
| inadvisedly) adopting a non-standard USB-C implementation
| for the Switch. It wouldn't have been nearly as bad if
| they'd used a proprietary connector on top of their
| modified implementation, but they left the connector
| unchanged and simply added a "use only official Nintendo
| chargers" warning which of course no one was going to
| follow.
|
| This did then, in fact, predictably lead to people frying
| their Switches, and has only further muddied the waters
| around the standard (which, to be sure, if you're using
| chargers and cables from at least minimally reputable
| manufacturers, will never fry a device under normal
| circumstances).
| gingerlime wrote:
| is it still a problem?? recently bought a switch and only
| plugged to the official adapter that came with it, but my
| first thought was "too bulky" so was wondering if I can
| use my M1 air USB C charger on the go instead.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| I've certainly charged my Switch with the charger and
| cable that came with my 2018 MacBook Pro, and it never
| caused an issue. Nor is the Switch in question of
| particularly new vintage (it's closing in on three years
| old now).
| mortenjorck wrote:
| Apparently it's the voltage output of the charger that
| matters with the Switch, and the damage is done over time
| rather than with sparks and smoke:
| https://www.tomsguide.com/news/nintendo-switch-brick-
| docks
|
| _> To oversimplify things quite a bit: The Switch uses a
| M92T36M Power Delivery (PD) chip, which isn 't quite like
| anything else on the market. The chip can tolerate six
| volts of power -- and that's it. Docks like Nyko's can
| provide up to 9V of power, meaning it's only a matter of
| time until the chip burns out._
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Note that the PD signal is supposed to be something like
| 2 volts.
| markus92 wrote:
| Wasn't that meme only due to one third-party docking
| station putting 12V on the data lines? I never heard any
| stories about regular USB-chargers or USB-C cables frying
| the Switch.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Correct (though I think it was 9 volts). The switch and
| especially the switch dock do some things wrong but not
| in a dangerous way.
| garblegarble wrote:
| Astonishingly, yes. There was a big thing a while back with
| a Googler reviewing USB-C products and highlighting if they
| were dangerous:
| https://www.computerworld.com/article/3002159/usb-c-
| benson-l...
| jefftk wrote:
| It's not astonishing that not following the spec can lead
| to things getting fried, though? Splice a mains jack onto
| a USB cable and you'll see some smoke too ;)
|
| But I agree that the level of incorrect implementation
| was shockingly high initially. Luckily it's much better
| now!
| AlexandrB wrote:
| I still stay well clear of MOOZOOM-style alphabet soup
| cables on Amazon and buy Anker for this reason.
| toast0 wrote:
| Looks like the Etherkiller[1] needs updating for modern
| times. I wouldn't be surprised if usb -> serial plus the
| serial etherkiller would do the trick though.
|
| OTOH, USB Killers do exist, but they only kill hosts;
| Mains -> USB-C could kill hosts and targets
| indiscriminately.
|
| [1] http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _There was so much hardware that was now incompatible_
|
| Huh? There's a 30-pin-to-lightning dongle that, AFAIK, works
| for everything. (Or nearly everything?)
|
| I use one still, to connect my ~2010 Zeppelin speaker (30-pin)
| to an old 2016 iPhone SE (Lightning) I use exclusively for
| Spotify. Works like a charm.
|
| The idea that the transition to Lightning somehow turned all of
| this old stuff to junk is silly.
| dwaite wrote:
| I suspect that Apple has been in progress of moving things over
| to USB-C for a while (see the recent Apple TV and iPad
| changes). They have already moved off of USB-A chargers
| completely, moving onto USB-C chargers.
|
| My understanding is they are also pushing the upper limits of
| what lightning charging cables are rated for, my suspicion is
| that it can't support PPS, so the lightning port is now
| limiting them both in charging speed/flexibility and in data
| transfer.
|
| But in some markets (like the US) you have more lightning-
| charged iPhones than android phones. It is a lot big cost for
| their customers to bear, throwing away a decade of chargers and
| cables when Apple is not really going to be able to express it
| as an improvement to them - for instance, most phone users
| don't use the data channel at all, getting updates and backing
| up data with the cloud.
|
| I find it odd people think their reluctance has been to defend
| profits on some sort of lightning cable ecosystem. Their margin
| on phones is likely $100+. Their margin on the licensing for a
| third-party cable is likely below $0.50.
|
| I'd argue this regulation is great for Apple, because it gives
| them a scapegoat. Apple then claims didn't necessarily _want_
| to cost their customers a bunch of money, but the EU mandated
| it. So Apple is going to go ahead and make the change
| worldwide.
|
| But hey, look, at the same time we improved phone charging
| speeds and look how fast we can transfer ProRes media you
| captured with your phone now to your computer? Feel free to
| tack those new official charging cables and data transfer
| cables along with any chargers you need at purchase, if you
| don't have any already.
| neuralRiot wrote:
| > t's sad that it took legislation to make this happen
|
| Every time this topic comes up i still don't understand what
| problem is this legislation supposed to solve. We're not
| talking about infrastructure standarization like a gas pump, an
| electrical outlet or a lightbulb (which has hundreds of
| standards BTW) but a simple cable. Are we making laws just to
| accommodate consumer's convenience now?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I don't understand the question.
|
| Customer convenience, including interoperability and
| competition, is the reason those other things are
| standardized.
| MBCook wrote:
| > It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I
| can see why.
|
| Did it? Apple moved their last Lightning product (outside of
| iPhones & their accessories) earlier this week.
|
| It seemed pretty clear they were going all USB-C, just on their
| own timeline. It was already widely expected next year.
|
| I bet it would have happened within 2 years if the law wasn't
| passed.
|
| If all the iPads, or even most of them, were still Lightning
| I'd agree. But when even the cheapest model moved, the writing
| was on the wall.
| Marsymars wrote:
| > Did it? Apple moved their last Lightning product (outside
| of iPhones & their accessories) earlier this week.
|
| Apple's Mac peripheral accessories (keyboard, trackpad,
| mouse) are still all Lightning.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| As are their AirPods (unfortunately). I just bought the new
| AirPods Pro and will attempt to keep them for a while if I
| can prevent my golden retriever from eating them this time,
| so it seems I'll have to keep some lightning cables around.
| digitalengineer wrote:
| My MacBooks would like a word. The Magsave cable changes every
| few years, regardless of outside forces. None of the 'older'
| ones fit my newer MacBooks...
| Jtsummers wrote:
| "Every few years"
|
| There have been three versions of MagSafe (not "Magsave").
| The first one was in use for 6 years, the second for 6 years
| before it was dropped for USB-C. The third version has been
| around for two years worth of devices now.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe
| jamiek88 wrote:
| There's been three in total and the new one works
| concurrently with usbc and is an optional, nice, extra.
| hoorible wrote:
| MagSafe was introduced in 2006 and has had exactly three
| iterations. "Every few years" is a bit of a stretch.
| hot_gril wrote:
| You're skipping how Apple made Lightning a closed standard and
| charged big royalties for it. I can reasonably point to that
| licensing as the reason a legitimate Lightning to USB cable
| costs at least $15 instead of $1.50, cause the latter is how
| much a good knockoff costs.
| scoofy wrote:
| Seriously. I will not take anyone seriously about how "Apple
| just cared about a better standard" when they _literally don
| 't allow it to be made a standard_.
|
| It's just a connector. If you're not letting everyone use it,
| it's not about it being better... it's about rent-seeking.
| Which is _exactly_ what the EU legislation seeks to end.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| Not to shill for a trillion dollar megacorp, but when
| you've got lightning and the competition has USB mini, how
| exactly is that rent seeking? You've developed an
| objectively better product, don't you deserve something for
| it?
| hot_gril wrote:
| It was in fact much better for several years, and it
| probably inspired USB-C. At some point it wasn't, and
| they kept making excuses to keep it anyway. I don't agree
| with the EU law btw, just saying Apple wasn't keeping
| Lightning for actual usability reasons in the end.
| scarface74 wrote:
| And yet I can find one just as good on Amazon for $5.
|
| No I also don't worry about buying gold plated HDMI cables.
| hot_gril wrote:
| If you can find a $5 one that's truly MFi-licensed and not
| a counterfeit, that's a new thing. They used to always be
| $15 minimum. Not talking about luxury ones.
| scarface74 wrote:
| And why do I care about a "license"?
| hot_gril wrote:
| You care when it stops working one day because Apple
| changed something (maybe intentionally). Out of a
| combination of spite and cheapness, I've only ever bought
| unlicensed cables for several years, and this is the
| price I've paid over time.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So how well are the USB C cables going to work that
| follow the minimum "mandate" that doesn't require cables
| to support data at all? How well are they going to work
| when people pick up a "USB C" cable and wonder why they
| aren't seeing video when they connect their phone to
| their TV?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > So how well are the USB C cables going to work that
| follow the minimum "mandate" that doesn't require cables
| to support data at all?
|
| Citation needed? I think those are below the minimum.
|
| > How well are they going to work when people pick up a
| "USB C" cable and wonder why they aren't seeing video
| when they connect their phone to their TV?
|
| They probably feel similar to people with lightning
| cables.
| scarface74 wrote:
| > Citation needed? I think those are below the minimum.
|
| The law states nothing about data transfers or anything
| else.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Oh, I thought you meant spec minimum not legal minimum.
|
| Does the law not say the cables have to meet the USB C
| spec?
| scarface74 wrote:
| There are plenty of "USB C specs"
|
| https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| And they all require data wires. The minimum speed is the
| same speed as Lightning. And the minimum wattage is
| higher than Lightning as far as I am aware.
| hot_gril wrote:
| > They probably feel similar to people with lightning
| cables.
|
| Lightning supports video. Or were you just making a joke
| about how unreliable it is? Cause man, I can't even
| charge my phone sometimes.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Lightning doesn't support video over mere cables. You
| need a complicated adapter that decompresses the video
| sent by the device. It's like a tiny streaming setup.
|
| If you just pick up a generic lightning cable, you're not
| getting video.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Not very well, but you can buy decent cables from a
| variety of manufacturers for cheap, and there isn't this
| one license-holder (Apple) out there trying to take a big
| cut from that. If someone wants to make a good Lightning
| cable for cheap, first they have to break the law by
| skipping the licensing deal, then they have to get around
| Apple's own mechanisms.
| scarface74 wrote:
| It doesn't prevent "ewaste" if phone makers (mostly low
| end Android phone makers) still bundle shoddy cables,
| stores are still allowed to sell shoddy cables, etc.
|
| And USB C is not free of licensing requirements
|
| https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/450494/ar
| e-u...
|
| A "good" USB C cable that supports all of the things I
| said - high speed data, video over USB, etc - costs
| around $15. The same price as an Anker Lightning cable.
|
| A random USB C cable doesn't support video over USB -
| something I need for my portable secondary display.
|
| The iPads with USB C already support this. I have no
| reason to believe that the next iPhone won't.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > A "good" USB C cable that supports all of the things I
| said - high speed data, video over USB, etc - costs
| around $15. The same price as an Anker Lightning cable.
|
| But the Lightning cable won't support high speed data.
| And if you want video over Lightning you can't just use a
| cable, you need an adapter with an embedded computer to
| decompress the output.
|
| A USB C cable that has the same capabilities as that
| Lightning cable is 2-3 dollars.
| hot_gril wrote:
| It's not free, but it's cheap. A good USB-C cable costs
| less than $5, not $15. You hardly ever need a good one
| either, just one for charging.
|
| Re ewaste, that's a different topic. I'm just talking
| about licensing fees.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Can that $5 USB C cable support data transfers at USB3
| speeds and video over USB C?
|
| USB C also has licensing fees. The stated reason was to
| prevent "ewaste" and yes you can buy a $5 lightning
| cable.
|
| Here is a 3 pack for $10
|
| https://a.co/d/8FB2naZ
| hot_gril wrote:
| You're actually right about the video -C cables. That
| feature costs extra, and I didn't notice the first time.
| But it's rare to need one, and they'll get cheaper over
| time.
|
| That 3-pack MFi Lightning for $10 is a new phenomenon. It
| was never like that before. I can believe it's not fake,
| just cheap cause it's old tech and on its way out.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Looking through my order history, I bought an "Amazon
| Basics" lightning cable for $8 back in 2015.
| paulmd wrote:
| Try asking the same enthusiasts who are adamant that switching
| to USB-C is no big deal and legacy cruft needs to be eliminated
| what they think about switching to a new PCIe power connector.
|
| Forget the 12VHPWR problems, we had a push for a new connector
| last gen too and it was universally reviled for some reason.
| People _do not_ want a new connector, let alone a new voltage
| rail to help move that power a little more safely, they just
| wanna keep doing 8-pin forever even when it swells to 4+
| connectors and starts dictating PCB layouts etc.
|
| If people want to be evenhanded and honest about seriously
| looking at legacy standards, it's time to have a chat about ATX
| and PCIe add-in-card form factorand their relevance in the 21st
| century. It's time for a new connector and new voltage rails
| and new form factors for GPUs in general, that standard dates
| back to the original AT PC (ATX is literally "AT eXtended") and
| a PC no longer looks anything like it did in 1980.
|
| The "add-in-card" is now pulling more than the actual CPU and
| the growth of the coolers makes supporting them physically
| difficult, and the chaos in the market has made solutions
| impossible because there is no standard for physical dimensions
| or connector plug-points etc. This is textbook, it's the exact
| same situation as pre-USB connector standards, everyone is
| doing their own sizes and layouts and it's chaos. Why should we
| not have government intervention to impose some common
| standards and get everybody on the same page so solutions can
| be engineered and we move forward? Why should a GPU not be a
| 6x4x12 inch box (or a set of other standard sizes) that slides
| as a module into the case with high-current connectors in a
| standardized location? No more GPU sag, no more 4x8pin, just
| one XT90 jag that contacts as you slide the module into its
| receptacle on a rail. Sounds like heaven to me.
|
| EU should look at giving a standards body a mandate to move
| forward past that and we can work towards mandatory adoption of
| the new standard and outlawing the sale of legacy ATX within
| 5-10 years. That sounds extreme but it's what we did for USB-C,
| right? But it's different when it's _your_ sacred cow and _you_
| have to pay for new hardware...
| WaxProlix wrote:
| > The contrast between "force Apple to stop adhering to
| legacy standards, USB-C is the future!!!" and "gubmint hands
| off muh 8-pin aux connectors!!!" is interesting.
|
| Both of these are the same stance to me, "existing industry
| standards appear to suffice, why foist something different on
| the market?"
|
| I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes
| so that last bit is probably exaggeration but seems
| misplaced; it's Nvidia, Apple, etc choosing these connectors
| for their products.
| paulmd wrote:
| > existing industry standards appear to suffice
|
| reminder: lightning _came first_ , because the industry
| couldn't get its shit together and agree on a successor to
| micro-b, despite acknowledgement of the shortcomings.
|
| lightning is the pcie 8-pin in this comparison: you may not
| like the technical limitations it imposes, but, it works
| well enough that you can build products around it. So why
| impose a change to The Current Thing and do this whole big
| changeover if it's already working well enough?
|
| could it be better? sure. And you could do better than pcie
| 8-pin too. But that's the hardware that's in people's hands
| right now.
|
| > I don't think governments are behind a lot of these
| changes
|
| sure they are, what do you think this article is literally
| about? The EU handed a technological monopoly via
| legislative fiat to the USB-IF here. You don't have to
| follow it, but you can't sell your goods in the EU if you
| don't.
|
| Why could we not require DIY parts sold in the EU to adhere
| to a new "pcie module" standard and outlaw sale of legacy
| form-factors outside enterprise/specialty use-cases (like
| engineered HPC systems and other enterprise, non-consumer
| products)? Most of those guys are on their own mezzanine
| standards anyway for the important stuff. Just declare
| "we're gonna make the change" and give companies a few
| years to implement it and get hardware into consumer hands,
| and then flip the switch and ban sale of the legacy
| products. It's not a big deal to update if you actually get
| buy-in from companies, but you can't have half the industry
| go one way and half the industry go another, because _then_
| it 's a mess, and in the meantime if you have half the
| companies digging in their heels nothing changes. Just like
| USB connectors.
|
| The really ironic thing is that if PCIe could make the same
| transition as USB - towards 48V power delivery - it would
| all be a lot easier and safer. USB is literally the model
| for moving forward here lol, and if you upgrade your PSU
| you could even keep your legacy connector (48v lets you
| deliver 4x the power at the same current). But people
| aren't interested in moving forward for the sake of moving
| forward - the interest in ditching legacy standards
| vanishes as soon as you bring up a standard their brand
| favors.
|
| It's just an extension of the brand wars. It's not about
| USB-C vs Lightning, you could simply mandate adoption of
| the power delivery standards and usb 3.0 speeds (ipad pro
| already supports usb-3.0 over lightning) if you wanted.
| It's about Android vs Apple and people are only interested
| in ditching legacy standards when it can be tied to their
| brand war. People absolutely don't care about the
| connector, and it's not about what came first (which was
| Lightning). They care about The Other Guy getting a thumb
| in their eye and having the EU legally outlaw the Apple
| standard. The thrill of having the EU legislatively confirm
| that Android Is Better.
|
| And ATX vs future-power is turning into a proxy war for AMD
| vs NVIDIA too. It's mildly disgusting, like sure I'd love
| to move forward on eliminating legacy standards cruft, but
| if you want to talk sacred cows then ATX/pcie-add-in-card
| are #1 and #2 on the list. People aren't raising the
| "legacy standard" thing in good faith at all, it's just
| brand warriorism and the instant you ask them to change
| _their_ crufty legacy standard the answer is no.
|
| Brands are now _competing and marketing to customers on the
| basis of refusing to adopt the new standard_ despite its
| official adoption into ATX - that 's so obviously
| problematic that it invites the same kind of governmental
| action as the EU took with USB. This is _how you 're
| supposed to do it_ according to the USB model and industry-
| consensus model that the EU favors. But oh, this is _my_
| brand and _my_ sacred cow, you can 't make _me_ change a
| cable, that 's not fair! And literally it's the most mild
| possible change, ATX working group is bending over
| backwards to maintain PSU compatibility and it's causing
| problems with heating/connection quality/damage. Really we
| need to move up to 48V like USB did, but enthusiasts are
| going to pitch an even bigger hissy fit over that.
| Vt71fcAqt7 wrote:
| Proprietary anything is bad. Apple is bad because it uses
| proprietary hardware. There is no "Apple standard." There
| isn't a "brand war" either. USB isn't a "brand," it's an
| industry consortium that designs connectors that anyone
| can use. Apple is bad and it should feel bad.
| simion314 wrote:
| > legally outlaw the Apple standard.
|
| Apple "standards" are DRM proprietary stuff, I would not
| dare to call it a standard.
| paulmd wrote:
| like HDMI doesn't have DRM, or onerous licensing
| controlled by a singular, for-profit entity?
|
| oh right "Apple bad, barely even a standard!!!"
|
| Sorry if it sounds frustrated but this just isn't a very
| interesting tangent, either you or the throwaway coward.
| It's still a standard even if you don't like the
| licensing terms or the feature set/implementation/etc.
| Stop being pedantic, it's not interesting, it's not even
| technically correct, it's just tedious.
|
| Terminal HN brain in action.
|
| Anyway: much like HDMI, the licensing dollars of hundreds
| of companies and the worldwide adoption % says that it
| _is_ a standard, even if a for-profit entity controls it,
| and even if you don 't like the features/licensing. If
| you're going to be pedantic and tedious, at least be
| _correct,_ nothing in Webster ever mentions that a
| standard has to be controlled by an industry body or
| names USB-IF specifically.
|
| Again though, this is a ridiculous tangent that people
| are doing to avoid actually addressing the core point
| about the obvious parallels between USB-C and a new ATX
| power connector.
| Vt71fcAqt7 wrote:
| We're moving away from proprietary "standards" more and
| more every year, weather Apple likes it or not. If Apple
| wanted a different outcome, it should have made lightning
| an open standard an gifted it to USB-IF.
| simion314 wrote:
| Closed "standards" are bad, but in this case even if it
| were an open standard the industry was forced to chose
| one of them so every device can use same cables and
| peripherals. It is not EU fault that the industry except
| Apple chose USB and is not EU fault that Apple decided to
| use USB in US.
| throwaway434814 wrote:
| >> existing industry standards appear to suffice
|
| >reminder: lightning came first
|
| Lightning was never a standard.
| paulmd wrote:
| > Lightning was never a standard.
|
| Yes, it is.
|
| DisplayPort is a standard too. So is HDMI. They're not
| _USB-IF_ standards, but they 're a standard. And there
| can exist more than one organization promulgating
| standards in an area, sometimes even (gasp!) private,
| closed, for-profit ones (like HDMI). Like HDMI is so
| closed and proprietary you can't even implement HDMI 2.1
| on linux lol, it's still _a standard_.
|
| If you want to make a HDMI cable, or have HDMI on your
| device, step 1 is opening up your checkbook and writing a
| big fat check to the single, private, for-profit company
| who controls that standard. Just like Belkin, OWC,
| Sonnet, etc all license Lightning from Apple. Still a
| standard, even if you don't like the licensing terms.
|
| Also, post on your main, you coward. Like did you
| literally spin up a throwaway to post edgy one-liners
| about fucking _USB_ lmao
| throwaway434814 wrote:
| "A de facto standard is a custom or convention that has
| achieved a dominant position by public acceptance or
| market forces"
|
| I think we were using the word standard to mean something
| different here, I apologize.
|
| Going back to your argument, the reasons I typically see
| push for USB-C connectors are generally not technical and
| more about USB-C being _the_ standard connector and
| cutting down on e-waste.
| paulmd wrote:
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| You are doing far worse at discussion, congrats.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > lightning is the pcie 8-pin in this comparison: you may
| not like the technical limitations it imposes, but, it
| works well enough that you can build products around it.
| So why impose a change to The Current Thing and do this
| whole big changeover if it's already working well enough?
|
| That would be valid _if everyone was using it_.
|
| If all phones had lightning I would be much less inclined
| to make them change it.
|
| > But that's the hardware that's in people's hands right
| now.
|
| The hardware that's in people's hands right now is
| overwhelmingly USB C. That's why the motivation exists to
| get Apple to be compatible.
|
| > 48V power delivery - it would all be a lot easier and
| safer
|
| I don't know, that's getting pretty high. Do you then
| convert directly from 48v to 1.1v or do you need to add a
| second conversion stage onto GPUs?
|
| Edit: Though given this post, the new PCIe connector
| seems like an overall good idea, and it's just some
| adapters that need to be recalled.
| https://www.igorslab.de/en/adapter-of-the-gray-analyzed-
| nvid...
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Consideration of cost and product volume are big here.
|
| Not nearly so many people are affected by PSU and motherboard
| specs as they are phone connectors.
| jefftk wrote:
| _> Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single.
| way._
|
| This is pedantic, but the 30-pin connector did have one minor
| feature Lightning didn't -- the interface supported a design
| where it needed to be squeezed to be released, like DisplayPort
| or RJ45, and a small number of products took advantage of this
| to build very secure mounts. When switching to Lightning it was
| no longer possible to build a 3rd-party accessory that had such
| a secure attachment to the phone.
|
| EDIT: I had remembered this as something Apple's original
| cables did, where you needed to squeeze them to release, but
| looking back I think you could just pull them out:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20071023101738/http://store.appl...
|
| EDIT2: that page has a comment "This cable came with my Ipod
| Touch and all i have to say is , what an improvement. it was a
| wonderful idea to do away with those silly squeese tabs. all i
| have to do is give it a quick yank and its out." so maybe I'm
| not imagining things?
| rideontime wrote:
| You're not imagining things, the originals did indeed snap
| in. I can remember how the buttons felt on my grody old
| charger.
| CameronBanga wrote:
| There were two different models I believe, one that had the
| squeeze grip and another that didn't require it.
|
| I believe the design was changed because the original squeeze
| cable had a tendency to cause damage to the iPod/iPhone/iPad
| when inserted and then yanked/pulled out without squeezing.
| At least, that's what I remember.
| brundolf wrote:
| Two key differences vs last time:
|
| 1. As you mentioned, most accessories have moved to wireless. I
| still (usually) use a physical cable for charging, and I guess
| I have a 3.5mm dongle, but I think those are the only two
| things I've plugged into my iPhone in years. Docks with a
| physical port, in particular, were super popular 10+ years ago
| and don't really exist anymore. People won't be throwing away
| speakers.
|
| 2. They aren't switching to a new proprietary port, they're
| switching to a standard port. Which means there's _already_ a
| thriving ecosystem of accessories that will now be usable with
| iPhones (some of which people may already have, for use with
| their other devices!)
|
| I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I
| think they just wanted those licensing dollars
| soco wrote:
| I already use my laptop charger for giving the phone extra
| juice when I'm sitting, now my wife will be able to do the
| same with her iPhone. Same in the car, only one cable.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I
| think they just wanted those licensing dollars
|
| They've switched every other non-iPhone device to USB-C. The
| more plausible interpretation would be that they don't want
| to piss off a core constituency of customers who've built up
| 10 years of Lightning cables. The number of people who care
| about standardizing on USB-C are definitely less than the
| vocal folks who will now complain loudly that Apple just
| forced them to buy a whole bunch of expensive new cables.
|
| At least USB-C is more durable by far than Micro USB was,
| even if it's not as durable as Lightning. Nothing can fix the
| stupidity of USB-C cables, though. What a mess.
| scelerat wrote:
| > Nothing can fix the stupidity of USB-C cables, though
|
| What is the stupidity of USB-C cables? Honestly don't know,
| simply not up on USB or cable technology
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| Unlike every other connector, with USB C the male end is
| in the phone and the cable is female. Since the male end
| has a thin piece that inserts into the cable, it both
| invites lint to get stuck the port and makes it somewhat
| risky to clean out, as snapping that thin piece requires
| replacing the port (and maybe the whole phone depending
| on how it's made).
|
| Compare to lightning, which AFAIK is indestructible, and
| lint can easily be cleaned out of the phone port with a
| toothpick.
|
| I'm sure people more knowledgeable than me will have
| other facts as well.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Did anyone ever snapped that "thin piece"? It is not that
| thin, and in fact, I never managed to break even the much
| thinner micro-USB tongue.
|
| I have broken USB sockets, and seen broken sockets, but
| every time, it was either wear or the connector being
| torn off a PCB (they are not always mounted properly).
| The only times I have seen a broken tongue was with USB-A
| connectors (the big ones), probably from a plug being
| forcefully inserted the wrong way. Micro-USB doesn't have
| this problem because of the shape of the connector
| prevents it and USB-C is reversible.
| sdfhbdf wrote:
| In short there is no way of knowing by looking at a USB-C
| cable or socket what it supports because there is a
| myriad of standards all using the same connector - USB
| Power Delivery, USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.1, 4.0, Thunderbolt 3,
| Thunderbolt 4, DisplayPort over USB
|
| You have to usually measure to know what does the cable
| support and what speeds and or voltages are possible.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Not only that, but it is not possible to make a do-
| everything USB-C cable.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Can you elaborate? What two features can't be combined?
| Wouldn't a cable with the new "80 Gbps 240W" logo do
| everything? https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/vkQLWTdsaQ6
| Cw7S6wRsWHD-970...
| scarface74 wrote:
| Zeus-X Pro 5ft/1.5m Universal...
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093YVRHMB?
|
| - USB A and USB C on one end
|
| - micro USB A, Lightning and USB C on the other end
|
| - 100W charging
|
| - 10Gbps transfer
|
| - supports video over USB C
|
| These have replaced all of my Lightning cables and most
| of my USB C cables.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I'd want to see a signal analyzer result at 10Gbps before
| I trust that speed claim on their 5 foot and 2 meter
| options.
|
| But even if that's true, that means it can't run at Gen 3
| speeds (or Gen 4, which has the same cable requirements).
| woah wrote:
| There's an oft-repeated complaint that they are too
| versatile
| yamtaddle wrote:
| The _port_ is too versatile for the _cables_.
|
| We replaced trying to figure out which plug fits in which
| of the many ports we have, with trying to figure out
| which identical-looking cable will do what we want when
| we plug it into the single kind of port.
|
| This is arguably still an improvement _at least for some
| people_ , but does suck.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| They are opaque. For a given use case you need to know
| which USB-C cable you need, and they all look just alike,
| but can have varying capabilities. You can't even make a
| do-everything cable, either.
| neither_color wrote:
| All these are existing variations of cables with a USB-C
| tip: Quest link cable, thunderbolt cable, charge only,
| data only no video, video but not 120hz, etc. It's not
| like you'll have fewer cables to manage if one device
| changes its port to USB - C.
|
| The biggest change will be in people's backpacks and
| suitcase. Now they'll have one cable instead of two(or
| two instead of three if they carry an apple watch). All
| your other devices still need their own dedicated cable.
| I'll still carry two cables though because sometimes I
| want to charge two devices simultaneously.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| If you mean cables that have a USB-C tip _at one end_ ,
| that's true, but I could cite thousands of distinct
| cables that have a USB-A tip _at one end_.
|
| Also "charge only" cables violate the spec, and
| thunderbolt-only cables violate the spec.
|
| When the cable is USB-C at both ends, there are different
| speeds and that's pretty much the only thing you need to
| care about. Occasionally you need to check whether it's a
| 60 watt cable or something higher, but not often.
| willseth wrote:
| USB-C is only a connector spec, and the actual USB
| protocol it supports could be one of many different
| versions and options. Or it can be Thunderbolt 3 or 4!
| harywilke wrote:
| Mostly it's a mess of unknowns as to weather the cable
| you buy will actually do perform well. With USB-C cables
| it's all fine print and advertising. This article is from
| 4 years ago and gets updated each year.
| https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/
| brundolf wrote:
| > They've switched every other non-iPhone device to USB-C
|
| The only device I know of that started out on lighting and
| switched to USB-C was the iPad, and that was specifically
| because they're pushing it as a "creator" device, for which
| people needed to be able to plug in things like flash
| drives, SD card adaptors, cameras, mice and keyboards, etc.
| There's significantly less drive for those kinds of
| accessories on iPhone
| genghisjahn wrote:
| Population of one here, I will gladly throw out all my
| lightening cables. USB-C please.
| musictubes wrote:
| The remote for the new AppleTV is also USB C.
| dervjd wrote:
| I have the latest Apple TV 4K, and it still uses the
| Lightning connector to charge the remote.
| burbankio wrote:
| The 3rd-gen Apple TV 4K introduced on the 18th switched
| the charging port on the remote from Lightning to USB-C.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Then you don't have the latest Apple tv
| mantecademani wrote:
| The newest Apple TV, announced earlier this month, uses
| USB-C for the remote. https://www.apple.com/apple-
| tv-4k/specs/
| yunohn wrote:
| To be fair, almost everyone missed this announcement. It
| got less attention than the new iPads.
| [deleted]
| eropple wrote:
| I think there's more drive for that than you'd expect.
| The camera breakout kit is _really_ popular in my
| circles. Not for cameras, but for talking to USB audio
| interfacs.
| scarface74 wrote:
| > The only device I know of that started out on lighting
| and switched to USB-C was the iPad
|
| The new AppleTV remote
|
| > and that was specifically because they're pushing it as
| a "creator" device, for which people needed to be able to
| plug in things like flash drives, SD card adaptors,
| cameras, mice and keyboards, etc.
|
| Apple has sold a USB to Lightning adapter for ages.
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| It feels like anything labeled "Pro" got USB-C faster,
| except the AirPods Pro gen 2 :(
| dwaite wrote:
| People expect to be able to charge the headphones they
| use for their phone the same manner they charge their
| phone. I suspect they'll be quick to change over such
| accessories once they change the phone port - they have
| had several smaller revisions to the non-pro AirPods,
| such as adding support for wireless and MagSafe charging
| cases. We will likely just be able to buy a new case when
| that happens.
|
| The real surprise is that the mice, keyboards and
| trackpads haven't gotten a meaningful update in a long
| while, so there's no USB-C on any of them. You'd think
| they would have long ago decided to switch those to
| USB-C, since the computer ships with a C charger - and
| because they could justify removing the bundled cables
| from the packaging.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| Maybe? The USB specifications calls for USB Micro-B to have
| the same 10,000 connect/disconnect cycles as USB-C:
|
| -----------------------------------
|
| Table 3-1 USB Electrical, Mechanical and Environmental
| Compliance Standards
|
| Performance Requirement
|
| 1500 cycles
|
| 5000 cycles for Mini "B"
|
| 10,000 cycles for Micro series
|
| 10,000 cycles for ruggedized Standard "A"
|
| Cycle rate of 500 cycles per hour if done automatically and
| 200 if manual cycle
|
| -----------------------------------
|
| https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf
|
| From what I'm guessing, a lot of the problems can stem from
| either parts that don't meet the spec because it saves some
| money, or sloppy QC on the solder joints. Unless I'm
| missing something, USB-C doesn't inherently solve problems
| of manufacturers picking out of specification parts or bad
| QC.
| samatman wrote:
| The main thing USB-C and Lightning have going for them,
| which Micro-B doesn't, is the redundancy of two
| connection pads.
|
| I've had more than one female Lightning port start to get
| tetchy about which direction a cable goes in.
|
| All I'll miss from Lightning is being able to clean the
| port with a toothpick. Then again, that's not a small
| thing. When I hear/feel a bit of grit in a USB-C port I
| get a sinking feeling, with Lightning I just reach for a
| dental pick.
| shuntress wrote:
| Snap a toothpick in half roughly and you should get a
| sliver on the broken end that fits around the USB-C
| tongue very well for cleaning lint.
| toast0 wrote:
| You can clean out a USB-C with a toothpick too, I did
| mine a few months ago when the connections got flakey and
| I got a ton of fluff out and now cables click in (which I
| forgot was supposed to happen).
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Maybe? The USB specifications calls for USB Micro-B to
| have the same 10,000 connect/disconnect cycles as USB-C
|
| Micro USB was such a dumpster fire. I never got within
| two orders of magnitude of that spec, I'm pretty sure.
| It's a terrible connector, easily broken.
| dwaite wrote:
| Mini USB was terrible, and would typically fail well
| below 1,000 on the device side. Mobile phones might not
| make it through their first year with a mini usb port
| back in the day, depending on how many times a day
| someone attached it to a charger.
|
| It was replaced with Micro USB and effectively removed
| from USB - but a lot of devices still shipped it because
| it was cheaper.
| gcapu wrote:
| I just want my Mac and my iPhone to use the same charger.
| It's not necessarily about the spending.
| gnicholas wrote:
| And just in time for MagSafe's return...the iPhone will
| go to USB-C! Of course, you can still charge a Mac over
| USB-C -- it's just not as much of a unification as it
| seems.
| eropple wrote:
| Does MagSafe charging cause a Macbook Pro to heat up in
| the same way that USB-C charging on the left side of the
| device does?
|
| When I saw that on my new M1 Max, I assumed so, so I
| never used it. (Also because I had USB-C charging for
| everything else...except my iPhone.)
| evilduck wrote:
| Wasn't that just an issue with the final 16" Intel MBP? I
| don't think any M1/M2 Macs have had that problem.
| eropple wrote:
| If it is, then I've just had rotten luck, because every
| time I notice "hmm, that's toasty" it's plugged in on the
| left side. Absolutely no science done, to be fair.
| stouset wrote:
| Nope. My MacBook Pro w/ M1 Max has never even gotten
| _warm_ , even while plugged in with MagSafe and pegging
| every CPU at 100% with SIMD instructions.
| eropple wrote:
| Cool (ha!) good to know. The times I've noticed mine
| getting pretty toasty when charging was from the left
| side, so I consciously try to avoid it (apparently a
| sibling suggests it's Intel only, so it totally could
| just be selection bias on my part). Regardless, I'm glad
| MagSafe doesn't have that problem. Thanks!
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _"The number of people who care about standardizing on
| USB-C are definitely less than the vocal folks who will now
| complain loudly that Apple just forced them to buy a whole
| bunch of expensive new cables."_
|
| I don't think that's true. Even hard core iPhone users
| likely already have multiple USB-C devices and cables, and
| the existing _chargers_ are already USB (A or C) and will
| continue to work just fine. Apple does still include a
| charge cable in the iPhone box.
|
| It's not like the old days when people were invested into
| all kinds of accessories with 30-pin connectors. Most
| people just don't care that much about a few Lightning
| cables and will be glad to rid of them.
| iso1631 wrote:
| We have 2 recentish iphones and an old c. 2016 ipad, but
| we have at least 10 lightning connections around the
| house, car, etc to plug into.
|
| We obviously aren't going to replace all 3 devices at the
| same time, so it means that the first device we replace
| will suffer from not having the places to plug in that we
| currently can (sofa, kitchen, bedroom, car, office, bag,
| etc), or we have to get more power supplies in those
| areas, and over time we'll have to get another 10 cables
| to replace them (and usb-c cables are a total mess)
|
| We'll adjust of course -- we were burnt when they dropped
| the dock connector meaning we couldn't use two of our
| radios any more, but we didn't make that mistake again
| dwaite wrote:
| The good news is that all functional USB-C cables will
| generally charge at 30W. They might not be able to go
| above 30W, they might only have USB 2.0 speeds. The USB-
| IF has only just now come up with IMHO their first
| passable attempt at labelling.
|
| However, for a couch or car charger for a phone, just
| about any cable that is wired correctly should do
| everything you want.
|
| The problems come with alt modes and fast charging - the
| cable might not support the full capabilities, or the
| device itself (points idly at Nintendo Switch and
| Raspberry Pi 4) might not have shipped as USB-compliant,
| breaking with certain valid setups.
|
| My opinion, the problem here isn't just cabling but
| troubleshooting help - how do I know the cable or charger
| I'm using isn't charging my computer at full speed? And
| which one is the problem?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| All functional USB-C cables will charge at 60W.
| Reason077 wrote:
| Yes. The _minimum_ capability of any USB-C cable is 3A
| 20V charging (60W), and USB 2.0 480 Mbps data.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I'm more hopeful that they'll actually include drivers for
| those devices (probably not). It'd be nice to hook up a
| screen via hdmi instead of needing an Apple TV. Or plugging
| in a dock with regular mouse/keyboard attached.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| USB-C iPads already support all of that, and you can
| already do those things today on current iPhones with an
| appropriate adapter -- search for "Lightning Digital AV
| Adapter" for an example.
| yardie wrote:
| I stayed in a hotel recently with one of those clock radios
| with the 30-pin connector on top. It would have been nice to
| have it use the larger speakers for background music and the
| alarm. But with over 200 rooms they probably weren't in a rush
| to replace all those units with Lightning and now USB-C.
| ghaff wrote:
| My guess is that they might just leave the room without a
| clock at some point. I've stayed in multiple hotels recently
| with no clock or in-room phone.
| walterbell wrote:
| There's A Dongle For That (tm). Not just clock radios, there
| were audio receivers which used the 30-pin connector.
| gnicholas wrote:
| I have yet to find a hotel that has upgraded their lamp-
| mounted or bedside USB ports. This is super annoying because
| I typically travel with a MagSafe charger for my MBA and a
| USB-C to Lightning cable to charge my iPhone. I would plug in
| my phone next to the bed if I could, but typically end up
| just leaving it with my computer to charge there.
|
| Has anyone seen a USB-C port in a hotel? I've seen that some
| car manufacturers are including them (sometimes in lieu of
| USB-A; sometimes in addition to it).
| notacoward wrote:
| > Has anyone seen a USB-C port in a hotel?
|
| I don't travel as much as I used to, but I was commenting
| on this in a hotel room in Schenectady just this past
| weekend. We've just barely gotten to the point where it's a
| surprise not to find at least one or two USB-A ports in a
| room, whether built into a lamp or otherwise. USB-C is
| probably going to take as long to appear as those did, and
| that was what? Five years? More? Certainly not less.
|
| I have a compact four-port charger that lives in my travel
| bag, and I suspect I'll be plugging it into still-too-rare
| AC outlets in hotel rooms for a long time yet. At least I
| know it's wired correctly, has overcurrent protection etc.,
| and will charge my devices at a known rate. Can't say any
| of those things about a random port built into a lamp, so I
| don't really trust those anyway TBH.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Yeah I had wondered about the safety profile of hotel
| outlets as well. It would be terrible for a device to get
| fried while you're traveling!
| jonahrd wrote:
| > "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not
| true,
|
| Last year Apple switched from USB-C charging to a new MagSafe
| charger on M1 Macbooks. USB-C was first introduced in 2018,
| moving away from the old MagSafe design. These are a very
| recent changes, so I'd say this still applies.
| uniformlyrandom wrote:
| You can use either, or both at the same time.
| hot_gril wrote:
| USB-C was 2016 but yeah. 2006 to 2022, the changes were
| MagSafe 1 -> MagSafe 2 -> USB-C -> MagSafe 3. That's enough
| changing that every new laptop you bought probably had a
| different way of charging, and the MagSafes were hardly
| different from each other.
|
| But the alternative was you got a Dell/whatever laptop with
| some one-off charging mechanism.
| grey-area wrote:
| Thankfully they do still charge on the USB port but yes it
| does seem odd they didn't just give customers another usbc
| port instead.
| uniformlyrandom wrote:
| I do quite like the usability of lightning, and I was quite
| upset when they cut it. I tried using 3rd party USB-C
| magnetic adapters, but they mostly suck. I welcome the
| dualism of new lightning + USB-C charging, the best of both
| worlds.
| dagmx wrote:
| MagSafe has a lot of benefits. High wattage before the
| latest high wattage usb-c came out, and easily disconnects
| which is great for laptops.
|
| Seriously , I've seen it save so many laptops in its
| current and prior generations.
| kstenerud wrote:
| Basically following in Sony's footsteps.
|
| With the same results.
| irrational wrote:
| I'm somewhat surprised Apple is doing this. I 100% thought they
| would abandon any sort of connector and go completely wireless.
| aquova wrote:
| I've never really understood why they hadn't done it yet. The
| iPad has used a USB-C connections for a few iterations now, they
| got a lot of criticism for switching only to USB-C style
| connectors on their Mac line years ago, yet they've resisted
| bringing the iPhone into the same ecosystem. There's a lot of
| third party peripherals that are reliant on lightning, but that
| doesn't really seem like something that would hold Apple back.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I feel like a Thunderbolt 3 iPhone has been possible since at
| least iPhone X. If Apple went all-in on a high-bandwidth
| connector for all their devices, maybe they could resurrect the
| dead dream of FireWire.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| It's especially ironic that Apple had to be forced to use usb-c
| since they were the first to adopt Thunderbolt and they use
| usb-c/thunderbolt in all their laptops and newer iPads. Seems
| they held on to Lightning connectors simply to sell more cables
| (or maybe spite).
| jaywalk wrote:
| I don't think it's either of the reasons you stated. I think
| it's more about how many accessories are out there using
| Lightning that will be obsoleted by the switch. It's like the
| Dock to Lightning switch, but on a much larger scale simply
| because there are far more iPhones with Lightning (and
| therefore accessories) than there were with the Dock connector.
| widowlark wrote:
| Create the disease so you can profit from the medicine
| jaywalk wrote:
| USB-C didn't even exist in 2012 when Apple rolled out
| Lightning. Micro USB would have been the "standard" choice,
| but it couldn't match what Lightning was capable of. I
| don't see how you can blame Apple for this.
| throwaway434814 wrote:
| It only took them 8 years to adopt a standard every other phone
| company already did. Another 8 years for jack 3.5mm on iPhones?
| fortran77 wrote:
| Apple should provide free eWaste recycling for lighting cables,
| with some assurance that the will actually be recycled.
| neves wrote:
| It invisible hand of the Government :-)
| Havoc wrote:
| > Apple's engineers should be left to come up with a solution
|
| That's precisely what we're trying to avoid. Every company coming
| up with their own version that is definitely totally superior to
| the other companies' and thus incompatible
| illuminerdy wrote:
| And who says it needs to be compatible? Companies design what
| they feel are the best/better components for their products. If
| consumers want to have a "standard" connector that works with
| multiple devices, they have that with the many Android OEMs
| that choose to use USB.
|
| But I don't see why the government should be forcing companies
| to use a standard when it has no clear connection to safety of
| the product.
| hot_gril wrote:
| This effectively decides that USB-C is the final iteration of
| phone connectors. Nobody is going to invest in making a new one.
| Maybe there wasn't much room left for innovation anyway; Apple
| has been showing for a while that they prefer the lock-in.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Not true at all.
|
| If USB-C hits hard limitations, vendors will come together to
| create a new spec. The EU law has provisions to reassess the
| standard every few years.
|
| There are already many specs such as web standards that are
| critical to society and collaborated on by many vendors.
| hot_gril wrote:
| It took the industry years to get their act together and
| leave micro-USB behind, and that was without the replacement
| being illegal. Maybe Lightning even gave them a reason to
| look for something better. With other standards, there's at
| least competition, and adopting a better one can be a selling
| point.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| If a better standard is needed, one will be created
| philliphaydon wrote:
| I must be the only person on HN who thinks the lightening port is
| better than USB-C.
| brundolf wrote:
| I can't really bring myself to care about any small differences
| when my girlfriend can charge her (Android) phone at her desk
| using her MacBook charger, and I can't do the same with my
| iPhone
| [deleted]
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| No, I think those that think otherwise are just extra loud. I
| use MagSafe these days, so its not really something I deal
| with, but lightning is a bit easier to plug in and out than
| USB-C. But both are much better than the pain inducing
| MicroUSB.
| pornel wrote:
| It is. Apple could have licensed it freely to make it the
| standard before USB-C existed, but chose to keep it proprietary
| to milk accessory manufacturers instead.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| Maybe a better UX for you but definitely not better performance
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Absolutely. I don't discount that technically lightning is
| inferior in every way now. But the actual physical connection
| I think is superior. I would love USB-C with the physical
| lightening port.
| stevenkkim wrote:
| Of the 7 lightening cables I own, two of them have stopped
| working, and one of them only charges in only one orientation
| (flip it, and it doesn't work). I'm hoping that usb-c on Apple
| devices will be more reliable.
| Ancalagon wrote:
| Nope, I agree. USB-C seems fragile as hell.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| Ergonomically, Lightning is clearly superior.
|
| USB-C can do more things, though.
| collegeburner wrote:
| no you're not. sturdier, clicks in better and doesn't wear down
| the same way. and im not even a apple fan/user.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| You've never had a bad connection with Lightning? Every
| Lightning cable I've ever had has two pins that have become
| blackened due to frequent arcing. And the "click" is
| dependent on the quality of the cable. USB-C cables from
| Apple click in exactly the same as their Lightning cables,
| for example.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Been using Lightning models since the iPhone 6 generation
| and haven't seen this behavior even once. The worst I've
| seen was a couple of times where the phone's port got
| pocket lint stuck in it, making it harder to plug in cables
| which was fixed easily enough with some careful teasing
| with a SIM ejector tool.
|
| I don't have anything against USB-C but its "click" factor
| varies a lot between cable/port manufacturers due to much
| wider tolerances/variances in manufacturing.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| So I had an iPhone 4 which i ditched quite quickly as I
| thought it was a junk phone and went Android for a while.
| Picked up again at iPhone 6 when I was paid for some work
| with an iPhone 6 Plus and have had iPhones since. So that
| was 2014, 8 years of Lightning ports.
|
| I've had 0 lightening cables break in any capacity.
|
| While the USB-C cables I've had for Headphones, iPad, Asus
| Keyboard, Corsair Mouse, and a few other little things.
| I've had to replace 5 cables.
|
| I love the idea of having 1 cable that I can use for
| everything. But no matter what anyone says, the lightning
| cable is superior in terms of physical connection.
| pshc wrote:
| I've had corroded pins on a couple Lightning cables, always
| happens after the phone was in a humid environment like a
| steamy bathroom after a shower. Now I resort to wireless
| charging if there's any hint of moisture on the phone and
| that has kept my connectors fresh.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| The click is good until pocket lint accumulates in the
| phone lightning receptacle. At that point it starts failing
| to charge occasionally. A couple of minutes with a
| toothpick and a flashlight and it is back to working great.
|
| I saw the arc once with a cheap no-name cable. I'm guessing
| the cable tolerances on the conductor placements was off a
| little bit.
| collegeburner wrote:
| uhh tbh no. i _have_ had problems with that stupid little
| center piece in a usb c port weakening because it 's still
| a stupid design.
| joshmlewis wrote:
| +1 to this behavior. Did not know it was from arcing. I
| have lots of cables of the years that have that signature
| black pin. Very annoying.
| hot_gril wrote:
| It's a better port maybe, but the licensing strangles it.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| > I must be the only person on HN who thinks the lightening
| port is better than USB-C.
|
| How do you define "better?"
|
| For charging its fine, as long as you aren't going for high
| power levels. In terms of data transfer, it simply can't
| support the data rates that usb-c can. If you want a simple,
| robust connector for moderate charging loads with moderate data
| transfer needs it is a great connector.
|
| That's not opinion, just simple physics. Lightning has a lot
| fewer wires. Apple has managed to get base USB3 rates with a
| couple of devices, but nowhere close to the thunderbolt rates
| you can get with USB-C.
|
| Having said that, for the vast majority of use cases, it is a
| great connector. Simple, idiot proof, and robust.
| seydor wrote:
| BS, they love it. Users will just HAVE to buy iphone 15, because
| it has the noticeable usb hole to differentiate them.
|
| Lighting cables are the new green bubbles. Using one means you re
| poor or hate the environment or both
| popcalc wrote:
| This right here is the truth. Consumers learn to associate "new
| cable" with new model aka I'm wealthy enough to grab the latest
| doodad on launch. Like a monkey wearing a palm leaf, new
| iPhones or AirPods are a status symbol.
|
| Apple's core market is not San Jose VCs or Mar Vista interior
| designers. It's Americans living pay-check to pay-check only
| afloat through credit. Their primary product is the ability to
| be envied by your neighbours, your classmates, or your
| colleagues.
|
| This is coming from someone who has completely bought into the
| Apple ecosystem.
| hobbitstan wrote:
| I often wonder how much money Apple makes from the fact that
| lightning cables all seem to die after a few months. I have usb
| cables that are decades old that still work, but lightning...
| scarface74 wrote:
| Yes because it's impossible to buy third party Lightning
| cables...
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Apple takes a cut from every licensed Lightning cable sold.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I doubt that Apple is getting a "cut" of the $5 cables you
| can buy from Amazon or your local bodega.
| marrone12 wrote:
| They do from MFi certified cables. You have to pay apple
| a licensing fee. and the non licensed cables will
| sometimes give you an error.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I've bought dozens of cords over the past decade that
| weren't MFI certified and not have any issues. Do you
| think the top selling Lightning cables on Amazon or at
| your local bodega or convenience store paid Apple a fee?
| stop50 wrote:
| Lightning is a trademark. As far as i know you can't make
| a lightning cable an sell it as one without paying apple
| scarface74 wrote:
| Why is this even an argument? Lightning is not something
| obscure. You can go on Amazon now and find hundreds of
| cables that are not "MFI certified". You can't believe
| all of these Chinese cables are bothering with
| certification.
|
| I have a few of these:
|
| https://a.co/d/4tSBBdi
|
| And these
|
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B092ZT8CJ9?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_s
| har...
|
| Not a certification anywhere.
|
| I've replaced all of my regular Lightning cables with
| these
| [deleted]
| marrone12 wrote:
| I've only had 1 lightning cable die on me in over 10 years of
| owning iPhones, and it was a heavily abused cable.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I can't remember the last time I had a legit lightning cable
| break. At least not for any other reason than "kids kept
| yanking it out by the cord and finally ripped the end off." I
| still have cables from at least 5 years ago, for sure.
|
| Micro USB cables used to last anywhere from a few days to a few
| months for me. USB-C is much better, but I still find they fail
| in less than a year. Not sure exactly why, it looks like it
| ought to be a sturdy design.
| ulfw wrote:
| And I just threw two Anker USB-C charging cables away in the
| last four weeks as both broke internally.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| Anker has been great about replacing in my experience.
| whiddershins wrote:
| I suspect it is harder to waterproof a usb-c jack.
| kennend3 wrote:
| Why come here to spread FUD?
|
| Thankfully NO USB-C phones are waterproof?
|
| Oh wait, many are?
|
| https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/7533279?hl=en
|
| Pixel 7 Pro, 7, 6a, 6 Pro, 6, 5a (5G), 5, 4, 3, and 2 phones
| are designed to be water-resistant.
|
| Why would a USB-C jack be any more difficult vs lightening?
| stop50 wrote:
| should be easier or around the same.
| galkk wrote:
| Nice. Hope that one day they will come after power tool batteries
| too.
| outcoldman wrote:
| They should start with the batteries first :D Every device in
| that smart home innovation comes with some battery that I have
| never seen before.
| franciscop wrote:
| Power tools already have a standard, smart home is a totally
| different beast though, and AFAIK most items should use
| USB-C?
| neogodless wrote:
| Are you saying power tools have a standard battery
| interface? That you could use batteries from any brand with
| any tool?
|
| That has not been my experience.
| nvahalik wrote:
| > Joswiak also claimed that the proprietary Lightning cable and
| the USB-C cable would not exist if Apple had agreed to the EU
| original demand of using the older Micro USB charging cable which
| had poor reliability and could easily be damaged.
|
| So... what happens when USB-C no longer makes sense anymore? Will
| they have to keep using it no matter what? Wait for the law to
| change?
| lesuorac wrote:
| Eh, that's the wrong take about the guys statement.
|
| The actual take should've been [Citation Needed].
| hot_gril wrote:
| USB-C will make sense forever now. Nobody will develop
| something else. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it is what
| it is.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| USB-C might very well be the last wired connection standard,
| but I expect a port free iPhone within 10 years that charges
| via induction and has some way to do some data transfer by
| that as well.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Right, and they might switch the law to allow that at some
| point.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The EU already allows for a port free iPhone. Just that
| if they provide a port, it has to be USB-C. But the tech
| and acceptance isn't really there yet for such a product,
| but I'm pretty sure it will come eventually.
| 1-6 wrote:
| It would be better if EU regulators asked Apple to open their
| Lightning cable standard so other phone vendors can use it. I
| very much like Apple's implementation of their charging cable
| because it uses less space on the device.
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| Why would the other phone vendors switch to a different
| connector though?
| hot_gril wrote:
| Cause the EU forces them to, lol. Yeah it ain't happening.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| It's USB 2 in different plastic mold. Awesome indeed.
| robertoandred wrote:
| What a pain, forcing everyone to buy new cables.
| kennend3 wrote:
| I suspect you misread the legislation.
|
| Anyone who currently has a lightening cable/phone wont need to
| change it ;)
|
| And yes, eventually it will lead to e-waste as people replace
| their Lightening based phones with USB-C, but didn't the same
| thing take place with the 30 pin dock connector?
|
| At least after this apple wont need dongles like this beauty :
| https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MQLU3AM/A/usb-c-to-app...
| tremon wrote:
| Indeed. To resolve that issue, the EU came up with this
| legislation.
| ericmay wrote:
| Yea but now people who were using the Lightning cable will
| have to buy new USB-C devices and replace existing cables.
|
| While the parent was being a bit disingenuous, they _are_
| correct that this will create additional e-waste that really
| probably wasn 't necessary to do. I'm happy that Apple is
| switching to USB-C, for whatever that is worth.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Unlikely. How many people in the EU don't also own USB-C
| devices already?
|
| I don't really care which port Apple uses, but I'd like them to
| be consistent across the range. It's annoying carrying
| Lightning cables (phones) + USB-C cables (iPads and laptops) +
| USB-micro (camera chargers) when I travel.
| tzs wrote:
| > It's annoying carrying Lightning cables (phones) + USB-C
| cables (iPads and laptops) + USB-micro (camera chargers) when
| I travel.
|
| This might help: Anker Powerline II 3-in-1 Cable,
| Lightning/Type C/Micro USB Cable
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071WNQYV6
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| At this point, the only proprietorship Apple holds onto is out of
| preserving branding by mediocrity.
|
| Not being able to use my friends Android charger is an absolute
| nuisance. I absolutely could care less about Lightning bolt,
| Firefly or whatever the fuck it's called these days...
| generalizations wrote:
| And I guess that means we won't get any more cable interface
| innovation for a while. Are we really that certain that micro USB
| -- I mean, USB-C -- is the format to standardize on for the
| foreseeable future?
| kalleboo wrote:
| And all because Apple refused to play ball and just adopt USB-C
| like the rest of the industry. They're too used to US
| regulators that just roll over and don't follow through with
| their threats.
|
| For over a decade the EU has tried to get the industry to adopt
| a common standard without mandating it in law (we got microUSB
| on all phones instead of the previous proprietary ports thanks
| to the 2009 voluntary EU memorandum of understanding that had
| no problem with manufacturers upgrading to USB-C when it came
| out), and only Apple kept on refusing to do it.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Thank fuck they didn't because otherwise we would have ended
| up with the shitty mini USB crap.
|
| Apple has been the one company making progress on stuff:
|
| - no floppy
|
| - no optical
|
| - no shitty as mini or micro USB
|
| - no Flash
|
| Each time people whined about the fact that they "didn't use
| what everyone else does" and each time they were right.
| 8note wrote:
| No flash was and continues to be a monopoly play, ensuring
| to competition to the app store
| jyrkesh wrote:
| I'd say the one exception here is removing the headphone
| jack. I'm still really salty about that one. Even as a
| Pixel owner...the downstream ecosystem effect was everyone
| removing the headphone jack. And most Android phones didn't
| even get the waterproofing benefits!
|
| Bluetooth just STILL isn't there from a reliability
| perspective. Even with the latest Gen 2 AirPods, I talk to
| friends who continue have sporadic stuff where a single bud
| cuts out, or you have to reconnect to get the mic working,
| or etc. etc... Just give me a damn analog plug and let me
| hear/talk!
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| Anecdotally, I haven't had any problems of the problems
| you describe on the latest AirPods Pro. And I like the
| ability to wander the house without dragging my MacBook
| Pro around -- I can get surprisingly far away before it
| starts to cut out. It's not perfect, mind you; on rare
| occasions they won't connect to my phone at all,
| requiring a restart, but once connected they're fine. And
| one time the left and right AirPods became veerryy
| slightly desynced, which was a bit trippy ...
|
| The main problem I have with bluetooth is that some
| devices make it kind of a pain to connect. It's not a
| huge deal, but it's not as simple or as quick as simply
| plugging in a cable.
| scarface74 wrote:
| You know there are:
|
| - usb C headphones
|
| - Lightning headphones
|
| - lightning to Audio adapters
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _And all because Apple refused to play ball and just adopt
| USB-C like the rest of the industry._
|
| History lesson: Apple worked with the USB-IF to create USB-C,
| to make sure it met their needs for both USB and Thunderbolt.
| They were the first to put USB-C on a laptop, the 12" MacBook
| in the spring of 2015 -- an amazing feat considering that the
| spec was just finalized in the fall of 2014. They were also
| the first company to release a laptop with just one USB-C
| port for power/expansion.
|
| Lightning was pre-USB-C. When it was introduced, Apple
| committed to support for 10 years.
|
| If you want to invent a conspiracy theory that makes Apple
| look bad, here it is: If Apple would've switched to USB-C
| without an EU mandate, they would've received mountains of
| bad press about the unprecedented amount of e-waste and
| confusion that will result because of this switch. So they
| pressured the EU to mandate the change to a standard that
| Apple helped pioneer so that Apple's environmentally-friendly
| record would remain unblemished.
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _So they pressured the EU to mandate the change to a
| standard that Apple helped pioneer so that Apple 's
| environmentally-friendly record would remain unblemished._
|
| Remember when they made us trade our 30-pin cables to
| Lightning cables?
|
| Remember when they made us trade our headphones with 3.5mm
| jacks to wireless ones or get a dongle?
|
| Remember when they made us trade our Lightning cables to
| USB-C cables?
|
| Remember when they made us trade our MagSafe chargers for
| MagSafe 2 chargers?
|
| Remember when they made us trade our MagSafe 2 chargers for
| USB-C cables?
|
| (At least we can still use those USB-C cables alongside
| MagSafe 3 cables)
|
| Remember when they made us trade our first-generation Apple
| Pencils to second-generation Apple Pencils?
|
| If switching support for one type of hardware for another
| type of hardware is an environmental blemish by creating
| e-waste, then Apple's record surely is not spotless.
| kennend3 wrote:
| This is a pretty decent list but is missing two core
| components
|
| 1) Firewire
|
| 2) All the assorted dongles over the years.
|
| If you go back far enough, apple was known as the dongle
| company. You just needed one more dongle to get things to
| work correctly.
|
| They have changed things up, but still come up with
| wonders like this:
|
| https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MQLU3AM/A/usb-c-to-
| app...
|
| Ipad uses USB-C but the pencil uses lightening.. no
| problem, just use a dongle?
| CharlesW wrote:
| That's a pretty good list, but you're forgetting SCSI
| cables (and terminators), AppleTalk cables, and ADB
| cables. What else?
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| While you're giving this history lesson, when was Lightning
| introduced, and was it more than 10 years ago?
| CharlesW wrote:
| September 12, 2012.
|
| https://www.engadget.com/2012-09-12-apple-details-new-
| dock-c...
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| The question was rhetorical, because I knew it was 10
| years in the past already.
| kennend3 wrote:
| > So they pressured the EU to mandate the change to a
| standard that Apple helped pioneer so that Apple's
| environmentally-friendly record would remain unblemished.
|
| Is this why apple's repairability index is always so low?
| Because by allowing their devices to be repaired they avoid
| being put in the landfills?
|
| They totally don't use proprietary screws, and glue to help
| you repairing your device.
|
| And again, they are changing thanks to.. legislation...
| Game_Ender wrote:
| USB-C exists because apple didn't "play ball" and use USB-
| mini or USB-micro like the rest of the industry and developed
| the lightning port [0] (see comments on this article).
|
| 0 - https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/
| jan_Inkepa wrote:
| Companies are trying to move to wireless charging anyway, so
| innovation would have been expected to be in that direction,
| and that will not be hampered.
| bobsmith432 wrote:
| Literally who uses wireless charging
| Hamuko wrote:
| Literally me.
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _And I guess that means we won 't get any more cable
| interface innovation for a while._
|
| What cable innovations has the iPhone had thus far?
| burke wrote:
| Lightning? Certainly at the time it was released it was a far
| superior connector than the alternatives. USB-C wins out IMO
| but only because of its now-ubiquity. Lightning is still, I
| think, a slightly better connector for a handheld.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Lightning was 10 years ago, and that was to replace the
| then nine-year-old 30-pin Dock connector. And I think the
| only feature that the Lightning connector had over the
| 30-pin was that it was reversible. Unless we count the size
| as a feature?
|
| Actually, the 30-pin connector had a bunch of functionality
| that was lost when Apple moved to Lightning. The 30-pin
| connector could for example carry analog audio. The
| Lightning to 3.5 mm headphone jack adapter needs to have a
| tiny DAC inside it to actually convert to analog signal.
|
| So if the suggested premise is that we are not going to be
| seeing "any more cable interface innovation", I'd argue
| that we weren't seeing much from Apple anyways.
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| Lightning was never available for other manufacturers.
| Maybe it could have won if Apple hadn't kept it to
| themselves.
| fazfq wrote:
| The lightning connector while everybody else was stuck with
| miniusb and microusb?
| dagmx wrote:
| The EU regulations have regular reevaluations of the format
| built in.
|
| So if something better comes along, it can replace USB-C at
| that point.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Wow, you can't imagine how excited I am that EU regulators
| get to decide the direction of technology.
| enriquec wrote:
| whos going to invest knowing their investment could be
| completely wasted on the whims of beaurocrats and on their
| schedule?
| Hamuko wrote:
| Who's going to invest in anything when the government can
| come, outlaw your product and throw you in jail?
| encoderer wrote:
| If you think this won't slow innovation in the connector
| space you've lost your mind.
|
| It might be worth the lost innovation, but to pretend that
| this won't impact new development is just fantasyland.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| The standard complaint against USB is that it is innovating so
| quickly that the names are confusing, not that it isn't
| innovating.
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| Yes
| mig39 wrote:
| Sadly, the first time this was considered by the EU was when
| all the phones were using Mini USB connectors. The same
| arguments back then.
|
| Of course, Mini USB is largely deprecated and not used these
| days.
|
| If they had forced Apple into Mini USB, would we have gotten
| adoption of Micro USB, and eventually Type-C connectors?
| fazfq wrote:
| It doesn't matter what you think, the busybodies have made
| their choice so you can't make yours.
| nilespotter wrote:
| Couldn't agree more. I don't understand why the HN crowd is
| so supportive of government telling people what to do, as
| evidenced by your rapid downvotes. I don't use an iPhone but
| I'm disappointed Apple caved.
| enriquec wrote:
| hacker news was overrun with non-technical people (with no
| real engineering or economics knowledge) long ago (like 6+
| years). hardly any interesting discussion or deep
| understanding here anymore
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| It's not much different than governments regulating
| electrical power oulets/plugs. And no one thinks that that
| should be a free-for-all.
|
| Of course, there's still fragmentation among different
| continents/countries, but that was inevitable given the
| time periods these things were standardised. It's
| unfortunate that the world didn't decide on one standard,
| but at least almost all countries are internally
| consistent. There's no need to make the same mistake with
| USB.
| hooverd wrote:
| We should allow electrical and networking companies to
| innovate again. If Cisco wants to use something else
| instead of RJ45, they should be allowed to be.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I'm calling the cops on the Cisco MS450-12 right now.
| hooverd wrote:
| Now I want a laptop with an SFP jack. Because why not.
| muhehe wrote:
| Who is prohibiting them from replacing RJ45?
| lacker wrote:
| I'm generally not a fan of the EU mandating technical decisions,
| but for me personally, Lightning connections have always been
| really low quality. Since my iPhone was about a year old, it
| often won't recognize a new Lightning cable that's plugged in, I
| have to unplug and re-plug it several times. Or it will charge
| for a minute and then suddenly think it's disconnected. Or you
| will bump it slightly and it thinks it's now disconnected. I have
| never had such trouble with USB-A, micro-USB, USB-C, or even the
| old 30-pin connectors.
|
| It's especially annoying when I'm in my car, which unfortunately
| only supports a wired CarPlay connection. Sometimes I'll go over
| a bump, it'll disconnect my phone, and I have to mess with it
| while driving in order to get the directions going again.
| selykg wrote:
| I've had iPhones since the original came out with the big ol
| iPod connector on it. Generally upgrading every two years,
| except the last one which was an Xs to a 14 Pro.
|
| I have never had this happen. I welcome the USB-C change, but I
| have never once had what you're describing happen in however
| many years the Lightning connector has been out.. feels like 8+
| years, but without looking I wouldn't know. I've had, I think,
| one Lightning cable fail to work and that was because my cat
| chewed on the cord.
| lacker wrote:
| Yeah, surveying my friends I found one other person with this
| problem, but it isn't the majority case.
|
| It doesn't seem to be a problem with the cable, it's really a
| problem with the connector on the iPhone itself. All my iPads
| charge fine on Lightning cables. I keep my phone for longer
| than two years, for one. Or maybe there's something specific
| to my pocket, where the sort of lint that gets into the
| iPhone is especially degrading to the connector?
| philsnow wrote:
| > I'm generally not a fan of the EU mandating technical
| decisions
|
| How do you feel about California mandating emissions standards
| for vehicles?
| dymk wrote:
| CA emission standards are a waste of money and resources.
|
| WA got rid of emissions testing because almost every single
| car passes, and it's actually a net increase in carbon
| emissions to keep the bureaucracy around. That money could be
| spent on carbon capture or solar subsidies instead.
| mikestew wrote:
| _WA got rid of emissions testing because almost every
| single car passes_
|
| Not anymore, they don't, now that it sounds like we all
| live on a _Fast and the Furious_ set. Bring back emissions
| testing just to cut down on the noise, I say.
|
| Additionally, you know why every single car passed? Because
| it was enforced. Now that it's not enforced, you think that
| Honda Civic that wakes up your kids at 2:00 a. m. would
| pass an emissions test?
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| And why, exactly, does almost every car in WA pass
| emissions testing? Seems like having to reach those
| standards to have access to the largest single US market
| might have something to do with it ...
| hot_gril wrote:
| I feel good about that, but it's not the same thing.
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| This is like mandating all cars be hydrogen fuel cell as a
| way to reduce emissions.
| lacker wrote:
| I don't really have any opinion about that, since I don't
| know much about vehicle emissions. I know a lot more about
| cookie warning banners, enough to say that they are dumb.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > I have to unplug and re-plug it several times. Or it will
| charge for a minute and then suddenly think it's disconnected.
|
| Take a toothpick, and scrub inside the connector on the Phone
| side. Most likely there's some dust/lint stuck in there.
| lacker wrote:
| Yeah, I took my last iPhone to an Apple Store when this
| happened to it, and that's what they advised. Sometimes this
| helps, but usually it doesn't. Maybe I'll try a Q-tip.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Does this mean Apple will add USB-C functionality beyond just
| charging? For example, connecting to hard drives.
| jl6 wrote:
| Reserve some celebration until we've seen the implementation.
| It's not beyond Apple to manufacture an EU-specific SKU and
| charge EUR100 more for it.
| post_break wrote:
| Reminder, lightning is still usb 2.0 which is a joke with these
| 4k videos and tons of photos. Apple could still put USB C on
| there with 2.0 speeds, like Samsung did as recently as the Flip
| 3...
| sdze wrote:
| But this is not a Lightning problem. It is the controller that
| only supports USB2. First iPad Pro for instance was Lightning
| and had USB3 transfer speeds.
| post_break wrote:
| A single camera adapter had USB3, everything else on that
| device is USB 2.0.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Is it bad that I assume they'll have logic in the phone that says
| only fast charge or whatever with Apple chargers?
| dimmke wrote:
| Oh my god, please please please this in the US this is an instant
| buy for me. Can they switch over everything? Airpods too?
| sdze wrote:
| according to EU Law it is mandatory for all these kinds of
| devices.
| dimmke wrote:
| Yeah but I am hoping they do this for all iPhones and not
| just EU ones.
| stop50 wrote:
| They will probably do this worldwide to save money.
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