[HN Gopher] My thoughts on the Framework laptop (from a professi...
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My thoughts on the Framework laptop (from a professional kernel
developer)
Author : kelvie
Score : 72 points
Date : 2022-10-24 20:22 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ruscur.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (ruscur.au)
| javajosh wrote:
| Hmm. Maybe the issue is with the factory install process or I
| lucked out and picked the right distro because I'm super happy,
| surprisingly so, with Ubuntu 22. It was the first time in a LONG
| time I've done my own OS install, so I was a little worried, but
| I made it a relaxing, non-rushed experience making the USB stick
| on another computer. I've done no tweaking to the OS and
| its...great. And by great I mean "I don't really think about the
| OS and sometimes I forget I'm in Ubuntu".
|
| Of course, there are some quirks. The thing seems to leak power
| while suspended - but the work around is to shutdown, since it
| boots in ~5 seconds anyway! The fingerprint reader on the power
| button doesn't work, but that's not something I would really use
| anyway. Snap seems to be broken in ways I don't understand,
| because it periodically prompts me to do the same thing over and
| over and never seems to succeed. That seems more like an Ubuntu
| problem - like, ditch snap, whatever it is.
| danudey wrote:
| Did you get the 11th gen or the 12th gen? The 11th gen
| experience is largely free of issues (after a few BIOS
| updates), but the 12th gen experience is composed almost
| entirely of them.
| nikodunk wrote:
| I develop using an 11th gen Framework and have run into none of
| the issues that this person talked about full-time on Fedora for
| a year. Must be only the 12th gen that has these issues.
| hifikuno wrote:
| I believe he says that his issues stem from the fact he is
| using a 12th-gen cpu. At the end of the article he mentions
| trying to get an 11th-gen if you can as that won't have the
| issues and will be slightly cheaper.
| nikodunk wrote:
| Ah yes! I did read this but my comment was misleading.
| Corrected.
| skybrian wrote:
| I'm hopeful that the Chromebook edition works out. People who
| want things to "just work" can run that. By the time Chrome OS
| support expires, hopefully Linux distros will have pretty
| polished device support.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It's the same kernel driving the same hardware, why would it be
| any different?
| postpawl wrote:
| > objectively incorrect choice of a Ctrl/Fn/Super/Alt layout
| instead of Fn/Ctrl/Super/Alt
|
| That can be switched in bios.
|
| I haven't had any WiFi issues on Ubuntu that require turning it
| off and back on. The author seems to be using arch.
| jgtrosh wrote:
| I am so riled against Fn/Ctrl (I use Ctrl way more than Fn and
| my pinkey finds the corner easily) that I honestly didn't know
| some hackers prefer it that way round
| mr_sturd wrote:
| Yes! Ctrl+Shift+B is probably my most used keystroke and it's
| not fluid at all with Lenovo's default Fn placement.
| kramerger wrote:
| I wish we could choose one layout and then keep to it.
|
| I mean, I am all open to an EU law here and I'm an not even
| joking.
|
| Update: calm down, I only meant the Fn and Ctrl positions :)
| Xeamek wrote:
| That's still bad, at this point there are equally as many
| ctrl-fn fanatics, as fn-ctrl.
|
| Option to adjust them in bios is perfect solution
| JimBlackwood wrote:
| Why a BIOS option? I don't see why laptop keyboards can't
| just ship with programmable firmwares.
|
| I think ZSA is showing with their Oryx GUI just how easy it
| can be for an end user.
| danudey wrote:
| I'm assuming I'm not understanding you properly, but are
| you suggesting that flashing a custom firmware is an
| easier solution than changing an option in the BIOS?
| taeric wrote:
| I don't know if I want to switch back to qwerty, at this
| point. :D
| orangepurple wrote:
| There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts.
| Mostly ISO and ANSI.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts.
| Mostly ISO and ANSI.
|
| You've got to be joking? Not even all my Macs have the same
| keyboard, let alone looking at Windows laptops.
| pdonis wrote:
| My deal breaker for a Framework laptop is the Intel CPU.
| danudey wrote:
| I'll admit that after reading about the train wreck that is
| Intel's Linux support for their 12th gen platform, my first
| thought was "ooh, maybe Ryzen frameworks next".
|
| The (other) dream would be an Apple M1/M2-comparable ARM CPU,
| but I don't think those even exist, let alone are feasible for
| a consumer laptop.
|
| Fingers crossed.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| Why do I have to buy the DIY Edition to get a Linux laptop? I
| don't want to build a laptop, and I don't want Windows.
| halefx wrote:
| Mostly because there is no one "Linux" OS, there are many.
| girvo wrote:
| Sure. Send me the completed device and I'll install the OS.
| Iridescent_ wrote:
| The "build" part is really just installing the SSD and RAM,
| which has been extremely easy even as a novice in terms of
| hardware thanks to how well-built the Framework is +
| installation manual available online. Do not let the "DIY" part
| scare you.
| ccooffee wrote:
| Personally, I found the "DIY" edition to be great. It was
| REALLY easy (probably took me 10 minutes, but could be done
| under 2 with practice), and by needing to "assemble" the
| product myself, I got much more comfortable opening it up.
|
| Since getting my OG framework, I've needed to open the case a
| couple times to clean the keyboard, which isn't something
| I've ever felt safe doing with previous laptops.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| eduction wrote:
| The money quote IMO:
|
| "I genuinely think the out-of-box experience of the Framework
| laptop is worse than anything I've ever seen in over a decade of
| Lenovo laptops. "
|
| He does say he likes the laptop and doesn't think the issues he
| hit with 12th gen Intel should keep you from buying an 11th gen
| Framework.
|
| On the other hand he's been a kernel dev for seven years and had
| to spend "ages debugging including building my own kernels with
| additional debugging as well as trying different firmware
| versions before giving up." He had issues with wifi, power
| management, brightness control, the GPU, "and my computer is
| locking up constantly." Oy.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| "In the last 7 years of that time I've been a full-time Linux
| kernel developer. If I'm complaining about the amount of effort
| it took to make this laptop functional, then the average user
| is boned."
|
| Same song and dance since 2006. Great only if you have no money
| and lots of time to learn and experiment.
| Foxboron wrote:
| Frankly, I got a Lenovo T14 Gen 3, 12th gen Intel.
|
| It's the worst laptop I've had in a decade.
|
| They spent 6 months fixing an issue where two internal DP ports
| where visible to the driver which caused the kernel to not
| survive a suspend. The issue is with the Tigerlake reference
| design, and a _lot_ of companies will need to push firmware
| updates to get things sorted out.
|
| This is the upstream driver issue:
| https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/5531#note_...
|
| Lenovo forum thread: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-
| Discussions/Thinkpa...
|
| EDIT:
|
| I realized I'm typing this on the 11th gen Framework I own.
| While the Lenovo laptop is somewhere behind my couch, I think.
| awinter-py wrote:
| > My first Year Of The Linux Desktop was 2007 and I've lived
| through every Year Of The Linux Desktop since
|
| yes
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Agree with a lot of these points. It's wild to me that the
| brightness keys are nonfunctional (unless you sacrifice the
| ambient light sensor) and there's no ETA on a fix. Random freezes
| and graphical issues aren't fun either.
|
| Another annoyance is weird handling of non-integer scaling on
| Linux. It's not _great_ on Windows, but I don 't need to dig into
| config files for most apps or use one off launch arguments.
| kelvie wrote:
| Yeah, as another fairly technical Framework owner, my
| experience was basically 100% the same as the author's.
|
| Are you on wayland? This is my first wayland experience (if you
| don't count the Steam Deck), and it was mostly seamless _only_
| after upgrading to the latest KDE, which disables scaling for
| Xwayland programs.
|
| Firefox still requires a janky workaround for wayland though,
| but as I understand it, wayland-based setups depend strongly on
| what the compositor implements (in my case, Kwin I think).
| abeisgreat wrote:
| My two cents as a Linux based developer - my 11th gen Framework
| has been largely fantastic. There was some annoying BIOS issues
| but they pushed a fix, there was bad battery life, but they
| pushed a fix.
|
| Overall it feels like an indie device still, but I'd take that
| over the mass production walled garden nonsense of competing
| machines. I feel like I own this device more than any other
| recent electronic purchases other than perhaps my Raspberry Pis.
| curt15 wrote:
| "There's a lot of "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" sentiment
| in that thread, and while it's absolutely true that it's a flaw
| in Intel's driver for Intel's hardware, that doesn't matter a
| whole lot to someone who's just spent a thousand dollars on a
| laptop that advertises strong Linux support. Framework is both
| lifted up and brought down by the many contributing parts of the
| Linux ecosystem, credit can't only be given for the positives."
|
| This. When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or
| AMD; I complain to Apple. Since Apple is the final integrator, it
| has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that all parts work
| well together.
|
| Similarly, whenever a laptop is advertised by its manufacturer as
| "linux compatible" or "linux certified", it is their job to
| ensure that linux actually works out of the box.
| akvadrako wrote:
| _> Advertised strong Linux support_
|
| ? I looked at framework laptops and as far as I could see there
| is zero official Linux support. There are some community forums
| for it, but no warranty if something doesn 't work or
| officially support distributions or anything.
| awinter-py wrote:
| https://frame.work/laptop-12-gen-intel
|
| > Available in configurations with Windows 11 Home and Pro,
| we've also tested for compatibility with the most popular
| Linux distributions and written step-by-step setup guides for
| them.
|
| that links to https://frame.work/linux
|
| > We designed the Framework Laptop from the outset to be a
| great Linux laptop
|
| > We deliberately selected components and modules that didn't
| require new kernel driver development and have been providing
| distro maintainers with pre-release hardware to test to
| improve compatibility
|
| > We and members of the Framework Community Linux sub-forum
| have been testing a range of Linux distributions for
| compatibility with the Framework Laptop to highlight the ones
| that work best
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| > When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or
| AMD; I complain to Apple.
|
| Does Apple actually do anything? I see plenty of people
| complain to Apple and it falls on deaf ears.
| caboteria wrote:
| "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" is a false dichotomy: it's
| OK to blame both at the same time.
| nomel wrote:
| > it's OK to blame both at the same time.
|
| You either do compatibility testing, and frame the marketing
| around the truth, or you have pissed off customers. There's
| not really an alternative in the hardware world. The logo on
| the exterior of the product is who they'll, rightfully,
| blame.
| pmontra wrote:
| People usually blame the manufacturer they paid the money to.
| In this case Framework could have chosen AMD or tested with
| Linux or stated that Linux is unsupported on 12th gen Intel
| or... There are so many possibilities.
| otikik wrote:
| Indeed. Few things in life are free. Blaming others is free
| _and free of consequences_.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > If you're Framework, please just hire a dedicated Linux person,
| preferably a kernel developer.
|
| Cathartic rant, or best cover letter ever?
| znpy wrote:
| I guess i dodged a bullet by not getting a framework laptop and
| getting second hand thinkpad again. Oh well.
| math-dev wrote:
| I just bought a Lenovo laptop and wiped Windows off it /
| installed Linux for the first time.
|
| As largely a newcomer to Linux, it was very smooth. Had some
| issues getting the wifi to work, but once that got resolved,
| everything has been super smooth. I must admit there is a bit of
| a learning curve, i didn't fully appreciate the differences
| between the various distributions.
|
| Shame that an indie company who is actively selling linux
| machines, can't have them working off the bat. That's
| unacceptable
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| Any one here able to offer a comparative on Framework versus
| System76?
|
| I pulled the trigger on a system 76 and I've been disappointed. I
| really want to support this Linux first movement, but I need
| something that's a daily driver that just works.
|
| Has any one used both?
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(page generated 2022-10-24 23:00 UTC)